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Hi
There appears to be considerable interest in Morocco at the moment with the type of investment in marketing similar to when Spain was on the way up.
Seems very impressive and have nosey as this looks like something that some my wish to take an interest in as its very near the Ocean. 😉
Company called Offshore Properties(lovely Website) and a well known developer called Unico with a development in Tafedna.
Must have cost lots of MONEY to set this up and where can investment of this nature be funded in this credit crunch.
Of course as always advice on any investment should be sought.
These do have investment advisors and rental returns etc but best get independent advice. 😉Just Frank 8)
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@Just Frank wrote:
Hi
There appears to be considerable interest in Morocco at the moment with the type of investment in marketing similar to when Spain was on the way up.
Seems very impressive and have nosey as this looks like something that some my wish to take an interest in as its very near the Ocean. 😉
Company called Offshore Properties(lovely Website) and a well known developer called Unico with a development in Tafedna.
Must have cost lots of MONEY to set this up and where can investment of this nature be funded in this credit crunch.
Of course as always advice on any investment should be sought.
These do have investment advisors and rental returns etc but best get independent advice. 😉Just Frank 8)
Frank, the world is a big place now and as an investor your best off in an emerging property market IMO, however Morroco isnt an emerging property market anymore so you have to look. Natal in Brazil has doubled in two years but there is still opportunities with such a strong economy and the caribbean still represents excellent opportunities for investors. An investor has wide choices and funding is quite possilbe for these projects, just look at egypt for example where you can buy for 25k. For what its worth I wouldnt invest in Morroco due to the implications of the repatriation tax.
I dont think a typical investor should invest in Spanish property at the present time unless he intends to use his asset but I strongly believe people who want to come and live in Spain shouldnt be put off and can find themselves a bargain, as long as they understand that should they want to sell it might not be too easy
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Morocco, indeed is a very interesting proposition. With the uplift in infrastructure. (only country where the infrastructure came before the developments) A few miles/kms from EU. In the north of Morocco you can use English & Spanish, unlike Central/South of the Country. Where you need to speak French. The French are buying for retirement, due to low cost of living & affordabilty of social services.
There is a lot American/EU money being poured into the Country. The American for political reasons & EU for political/economic reasons hoping that job created will discourage Moroccan entering EU illegally. Please check out “Tangier’s Med” one of the biggest shipping ports in the world creating duty free zones, Companies like Renault/Nissan has already set up the infrastructure to produce 400,000 to 600,000 cars per year.
In, addition to the above, there is a serious amounts of money being invested by gulf rich Dubai, Qatar, Bahrain & Saudi.
Sadly, a lot of the unethical builders from Spain have moved in. Incorporating new companies. Whilst leaving little or no trace of their past misdemeanours.
As, always buyer be aware as the same builders are building without planning permission, Bank guarantees etc. The Agents who were smiling at you at Malaga Airport are still smiling at you at Malaga airport & carrying on smiling, until they take you across by ferry from Spain.
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I’d go for Egypt. And I wouldn’t use an agency over here selling properties over there. Try visiting somewhere like Hurgarda. Stay at a good hotel, such as the Hilton (there are two in Hurgada – stay at the most expensive). Get talking to the bar staff, reps etc. You will be able to get a new apartment for £10 – 15K.
It’s a big risk but the sea is amazing (try diving or even just snorkelling). The Egyptians are big hearted people. 😉
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“I wouldn’t invest in Morocco due to the implications of the repatriation tax.”
There is no such issue, if you take the money into the Country legally and deposited in a “Dirham convertible account”. Besides you can get a 70% mortgage. so you only talking about the 30%.
Spain, had a similar system ” pesetas convertible account” All this will change as the economy and financial market converges with EU. The Dirham is already pegged to the €.
Brazil, Cape Verde, Egypt, have their own +/-, I however would not like to travel to Brazil, if issues arise that need my presence, apart from the time/time zone, Ryanair, easyjet are not flying there. As forum users will know well that I do not have confidence in dishing out power attorney’s this not an option that I would recommend to be given to some one in Brazil.
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Frank, the world is a big place now and as an investor your best off in an emerging property market IMO, however Morroco isnt an emerging property market anymore so you have to look. Natal in Brazil has doubled in two years but there is still opportunities with such a strong economy and the caribbean still represents excellent opportunities for investors. An investor has wide choices and funding is quite possilbe for these projects, just look at egypt for example where you can buy for 25k. For what its worth I wouldnt invest in Morroco due to the implications of the repatriation tax.
I rember reading something like this in a property sales brochure from the obnoxious guy we cannot name 🙄 Most of the agents here seem to be pushing Egypt and Morroco now, not forgetting Bulgaria…smacks of sheer desperation!
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In times like this. The agents are trying to sell the lower end of the international property market.
If, I was buying in these countries, I will not buy the cheaper end of the market. As the top end will have a better return and better protection as this end of the market would also have local well to do & connected buyers. This in turn will ensure that the development/block will not become a Ghetto & a ghost town outside summer months. I am sure others have their differing opinions on it.
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@Just Frank wrote:
Hi
There appears to be considerable interest in Morocco at the moment with the type of investment in marketing similar to when Spain was on the way up.
Seems very impressive and have nosey as this looks like something thatMorocco was 2005 news. Many got burned. Look for Saidia development for example.
Egypt is OK-ish. You can buy a studio for 7K Pounds. But to go there it costs 1000 Pounds/family of four whereas to Spain one can fly for 150 Pounds/family of four…
If one really wants to invest in property, I guess Florida, California or Arizona markets are the way to go (Dollar might crash again with respect to Pound)
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@Senor Nick wrote:
Frank, the world is a big place now and as an investor your best off in an emerging property market IMO, however Morroco isnt an emerging property market anymore so you have to look. Natal in Brazil has doubled in two years but there is still opportunities with such a strong economy and the caribbean still represents excellent opportunities for investors. An investor has wide choices and funding is quite possilbe for these projects, just look at egypt for example where you can buy for 25k. For what its worth I wouldnt invest in Morroco due to the implications of the repatriation tax.
The Brazilian Real has lost 50% versus US dollar in the last 2 month and is going down. Natal property has doubled on paper in the last years due to Brits dreaming of selling to Brits, there is no market for resale property.
Same is true about Cape Verde where thousands “investors” find now that cannot sell their “investment properties”.
People will learn the hard way that novice “investors” are always losing money when the market is not crazy as it was between 1997-2004.
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“Morocco was 2005 news. Many got burned. Look for Saidia development for example.”
Saidia, was never a good proposition. It was being developed by Fadesa and any one who has bought from Fadesa, apart from their current crises will know what I mean. I am not sure what do you mean by “burned”. The early buyers are sitting on a decent paper profit, the teething problems will get resolved as it the first project of the Azur plan and the king has his reputation on the line.
I was offered “Saidia” before it was launched for some very attractive prices. I turned it down for the main reason that I did not have faith in Fadesa, was not sure if the airport will ever have flights from UK, lack of infrastructure and it was too close to Algeria.
Tangier’s side Atlantic/Med is OK.
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😯 Shakeel!
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So Turkish Bonds at 15% interest……are they a Turkish Delight, or a Turkish Disaster?Just Frank, my ‘bestie matey’ –
you say “There appears to be considerable interest in Morocco at the moment with the type of investment in marketing similar to when Spain was on the way up”.I’m afraid I don’t find that encouraging at all Frank to be honest. It was all that investment in marketing (glossy brochures, fancy exhibition stands, full-page colourful ads. in posh mags-for-the-rich, impressive models of development in pride of place in the developers’ offices etc.) that sucked many into ‘investing’ in thin air/illegal builds in the first place.
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@shakeel wrote:
“Morocco was 2005 news. Many got burned. Look for Saidia development for example.”
Saidia, was never a good proposition. It was being developed by Fadesa and any one who has bought from Fadesa, apart from their current crises will know what I mean. I am not sure what do you mean by “burned”. The early buyers are sitting on a decent paper profit, the teething problems will get resolved as it the first project of the Azur plan and the king has his reputation on the line.
I was offered “Saidia” before it was launched for some very attractive prices. I turned it down for the main reason that I did not have faith in Fadesa, was not sure if the airport will ever have flights from UK, lack of infrastructure and it was too close to Algeria.
Tangier’s side Atlantic/Med is OK.
It might be that the 2005 investors did OK-ish in MOrocco. But most people put money there in 2006 when the prices were out of whack.
The 2008 prices in Saidia are less than the 2006 prices so people who bought there in 2006 lost money.The other Plan Azure resorts on the Atlantic are nice but we are talking about 300K+ prices which are not for everybody’s pockets.
The other resorts around Tangier, Asilah et al. will be a lot similar to the ones in Spain i.e. overbuilt and tasteless.
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The so called property market in “emerging markets” fell off a cliff a year ago and anyone who says otherwise is either working in these areas or extremely naive……… !!……….. the credit crunch and imploding world have now killed off any interest that might have been around .
FLosmichael reports
Quote:he Brazilian Real has lost 50% versus US dollar in the last 2 month and is going down. Natal property has doubled on paper in the last years due to Brits dreaming of selling to Brits, there is no market for resale property.[/quote]
another reason to be wary of buying in emerging markets – the currency risk !! Natal is stone dead and any seller lucky enough to sell at original purchase price would have to swallow the currency loss as well. Flosmichael, if there is market for new property (acording to you) why do you then state there is no market for re sale property???????????
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@UBEDA wrote:
another reason to be wary of buying in emerging markets – the currency risk !! Natal is stone dead and any seller lucky enough to sell at original purchase price would have to swallow the currency loss as well. Flosmichael, if there is market for new property (acording to you) why do you then state there is no market for re sale property???????????
Natal (Rio Grande del Norte) and Ceara have thousands of miles of beaches.
There will be thousands of beach front resorts. The agents will get big commissions to sell the new resorts. They will have little incentive to advertise the resale properties.I know quite well the situation as I have been tented to buy there. I only purchased some land in Canoa Quebrada (Ceara) and Muriu Beach.
5000 Pounds for both was OK for a dream!
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The major thing about overseas property investment is that there are different type of investments, ie owner ocuppier or Investments that replace buy to let where you buy the investment but in reality its not really yours and you just recieve and income from in for 20 years or so. you may get 30 days free use a year but that would depend on the investment.
The world is getting a very small place now and the disparity in prices between emerging markets and established market in 10 years time probably wont be that great.
The Investors who make money in property are the ones who identify a market first get in and get out and get into the next one before everyone else.
The biggest problem for novice investors is not letting the property/lifestyle cloud their investment judgement so for example Brataslava would be a great investment and Berlin has been. However you certainly wouldnt want to live there.
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Hi
Well one thing is clear is that this particular company must be very confident that the Morocco market must be worth a look.
Why would they be investing this sort of money/where did the money come from as credit is SOOoooooo tight. 😯
What concerns me is that this whole approach looks like Spain in the early days all over again.
1 Off plan
2 Payment down.
3 Lovely “OCEAN VIEWS.” 🙄
4 Lovely marketing/Websites/Exhibitions/Rental return promises/Promise that this is perfect investment and in fact a real “CRADLE TO GRAVE SERVICE FROM ONE COMPANY.”
5 In house solicitors so no need to go find your own.
6 Even have rip (cough) furniture packs which some companies have failed to deliver in he past.
7 Bank Guarantees
8 Financial advice and viewing trips from U.K based financial advisors
9 Poor legal system prime for corruption,brown paper bags
10 Deposits taken with no build,a bit like Estepona.
11 This whole to this approach ,
should ring lots and lots of bells for those that have been conned in Spain.
12 Perhaps I am cynical but think those like Goodstich44 will understand how easy it is to get caught out how impossible it is to get justice with this type of “set up”.
13 Threats to editors on forums regarding postings.
14 Sales and marketing involving football players.
15 Now surely with the experience on this forum we all would hate to see events in Spain be reflected all over again.
16 Now times move on but some companies dont and just a case of pastures new.Think I have been around the forums to much and that website really does look familiar.
Just Frank 8)
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@Senor Nick wrote:
The major thing about overseas property investment is that there are different type of investments, ie owner ocuppier or Investments that replace buy to let where you buy the investment but in reality its not really yours and you just recieve and income from in for 20 years or so. you may get 30 days free use a year but that would depend on the investment.
The world is getting a very small place now and the disparity in prices between emerging markets and established market in 10 years time probably wont be that great.
The Investors who make money in property are the ones who identify a market first get in and get out and get into the next one before everyone else.
The biggest problem for novice investors is not letting the property/lifestyle cloud their investment judgement so for example Brataslava would be a great investment and Berlin has been. However you certainly wouldnt want to live there.
I do not think there is any market to be discovered anymore. All the prices have gone wildly up in the last 5 years.
Consider an apartment I bought by luck in Romania in 2003. It costed me
14K Dollars and now some idiots from the same building think they can sell for 120K Euros…I am sure that the same is true in many other ex-communist countries.
Berlin is a place where Brits have tried to pump up prices but it did not quite work.
I lived 2 years in Berlin and I consider 2 of the best years of my life, I thoroughly enjoyed it there.
The only good investment to be made now is to buy foreclosed property at dumping prices… You can almost do it in USA now (although the prices might still have abnout 20% to fall), I am sure many countries will offer this kind of deal in the coming years.
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@Just Frank wrote:
Hi
Well one thing is clear is that this particular company must be very confident that the Morocco market must be worth a look.Most (if not all) of the companies selling in Morocco are shady ones which left Spain in 2005-2006 when things turned South.
Of course they took they remained shady in Morocco too. Caveat emptor!
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The repatriation tax is the killer in Morocco.
if you buy for 100k and sell for 210k then you are allowed to take 100k profit back with your original investmenet ie 200k but you must leave 10k in Morocco. but where investors have got burnt is that if you buy for 100k with a 70k mortgage you can only take double your cash investment ie 60k and must leave 80k in Morocco. Surprise surprise the people selling the project forgot to mention this to the buying investors.
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Senor Nick:
I don’t understand your post.
I’ve just gone into Google & asked about repatriation tax Morocco & all the sites that came up said that 100% of the sale price can be taken back to the UK (less Capital Gains tax which depends how long the property has been owned) provided all the purchase payments have been made through a Morocco bank account.
Perhaps you know more.
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Hi Charlie 😆
YOU POSTED
I’m afraid I don’t find that encouraging at all Frank to be honest. It was all that investment in marketing (glossy brochures, fancy exhibition stands, full-page colourful ads. in posh mags-for-the-rich, impressive models of development in pride of place in the developers’ offices etc.) that sucked many into ‘investing’ in thin air/illegal builds in the first place.
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The very point that concerns me as YEP I know just who this company are and its the Spain mark 2 all over again.
Anyone who has had the unfortunate history of dealings in Spain will take one look at the website will reflect just who good this lot are
and how easy they were taken in.BEWARE. Should anyone be offered to exchange a non build in Spain should tke great care as consider its from the frying pan into the fire.
Just Frank 8)
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This web site tells you all you need to know about the next place to invest
http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Slovak-Republic/Price-History -
@flosmichael wrote:
Same is true about Cape Verde where thousands “investors” find now that cannot sell their “investment properties”.
Is that the island off the coast of Africa that takes a couple of days to reach because there are no direct flights? That was a no brainer, surely?
@flosmichael wrote:
People will learn the hard way that novice “investors” are always losing money when the market is not crazy as it was between 1997-2004.
We used to say that by the time we heard about it the moment had gone. This property boom lasted so long that anyone saying that was proved completely wrong and a lot dived in when the serious novice “investors” were on their second or third property.
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Just my opinion, but I can’t see anywhere right now that makes sound sense to invest in property with Euro still strong, Sterling weak, (poss, the US with prices so low), and for other reasons not in Morocco mainly because it shares huge land borders with Algeria and Mauretania both homes for extremist terroist activity who only have to hop over the border one day to cause mayhem. That border cannot be policed properly, property values could plummet if that happened.
Cape Verde is a collection of barren windswept African Isles, (nice for a holiday), unsophisticated, hardly any infrastructure, difficult and expensive to get to, no re-sale value.
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@rob6578 wrote:
Senor Nick:
I don’t understand your post.
I’ve just gone into Google & asked about repatriation tax Morocco & all the sites that came up said that 100% of the sale price can be taken back to the UK (less Capital Gains tax which depends how long the property has been owned) provided all the purchase payments have been made through a Morocco bank account.
Perhaps you know more.
Unfortunately this is what most investors were led to believe. Now you have the rumours of people not being able to get there money out of Morocco and not realding the smaill print.
Ie your investment is your cash stake not your purchase price -
@GJM wrote:
This web site tells you all you need to know about the next place to invest
http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Slovak-Republic/Price-HistoryWhen you see the name of the Spanish contact you should run a mile
I mentioned if first but looks like its already had the growth its finding the next place with the growth before it happens, its those clever people who make money
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There are no “emerging markets” or “the next best thing” Just because you can pick up an apartment for less than 50,000 sterling doesn’t mean it is a good investment.
If I were to be investing in property now I would invest in the UK. Not the overpriced city flats overhyped BTL just normal family homes. I know someone who calls himself a property investor…he has 2 apartments in Spain and two in Bulgaria 🙄 and he is getting F all returns for them. Infact the Bulgarian ones are actually costing him. The longer the distance away from the property leaves you open to scamming property managers. It is possible to pay a high sum to fix a dripping tap and get the place painted. You do not know if someone is in the place or not etc.
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“I know someone who calls himself a property investor…he has 2 apartments in Spain and two in Bulgaria and he is getting F all returns for them.”
Katy: Any one who buys a property is by definition a property investor.
The person you know is a property investor. Looking ahead whether he is a good or a bad investor in short term or Long term, only time and his balance sheet will tell. Let us not forget that people have different criteria some are looking for rental yield & others return on capital. Their success or lack of it can be measured by the returns related to their particular Industry/sector, within a given span of time say five years. The situation get diluted when people buy as a hedge & are willing to accept no return for their future retirement etc.
“The longer the distance away from the property leaves you open to scamming property managers.”
Agree, as I have already stated my reservations on buying in places like Brazil.
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I agree katy in general with your view that there are no emerging markets, next best thing etc, however I don’t think this is the time to invest in the UK either for a year or two as property is expected to fall a lot further in that time.
B to L investors have contributed to inflated prices and many will shift their stock. A couple in Kent (the Wilsons) own 700 homes (not flats), they took them out of the market getting big discounts for themselves, then rented them to priced out 1st time buyers who would have been forced to pay the Developers’ higher prices. The Wilsons are now worried, and are reported to be imminently shifting at least 300 of these properties. This could snowball in the UK dragging other homes down.
They are just one multiple investor in trouble.
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I have to say that to say there are no emerging markets or good places to invest anymore is just plain wrong.
People who invested in Bratislava 2 years ago have made money and will probably make money this year against the trend of the rest of the EC, what happens beyond that is another question all together, The investors that make money know when to get in and when to get out. Some might call it Property specualtion rather property investment. the great thing about property investment is that unlike stocks or putting your money in the bank even if it crashes you dont lose all your money and you still have bricks and mortar.
There are still places to invest that have great possibilities once an investor has done his work in checking out market conditions, GDP and demand etc but in todays market its only the professionals or very clever investors who know what to do.
In the next 18 months some people are going to get very rich and a lot of people are going to lose money
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@Senor Nick wrote:
the great thing about property investment is that ……even if it crashes you dont lose all your money and you still have bricks and mortar.
So you’ve never heard of homes being repossessed then Nick? 😕
You’re so busy giving the sales pitch am beginning to think you’re believing your own nonsense. -
@charlie wrote:
@Senor Nick wrote:
the great thing about property investment is that ……even if it crashes you dont lose all your money and you still have bricks and mortar.
So you’ve never heard of homes being repossessed then Nick? 😕
You’re so busy giving the sales pitch am beginning to think you’re believing your own nonsense.Now thats a totally different discussion entirely a good investor wouldnt get himself into that position.
There is a difference here about buying your own home and not being able to service your debt and buy to let investments or buy for captial growth investments
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Weren’t bank fund managers regarded as ‘good investors’? Come on Nick, even you have to admit that no-one gets it right all the time. Even the ‘clever’ ones.
@Senor Nick wrote:
…but in todays market its only the professionals or very clever investors who know what to do.
Exactly. All the more reason for the ‘average Joe’ not to listen to the average Estate Agent who will only be biased in their advice to buy now.
Even if it is sure-fire-bet Bratislava. -
Why not
If investment banks/developers and countries like Iceland do it then where is the line regarding whats an investment and wants not.
There were many very rich people a few months ago that are probably on there arse and they were investors that considered they have things covered.
Look at Anthea Redferns hubby Grant Bovey 😯
You may not be able to service a dept if the computer says NO 😉Just Frank 8)
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I really think in the current Global meltdown, that only an estate agent (on high commissions) would be pushing so called new or emerging markets. There are no good Eurozone markets for Brits while Sterling remains weak!
No market is a safe or a sure way to make money at present and possibly only fools and their money would be parted by smooth talkers.
There are strong reasons to avoid Real Estate TV (often 4-5 years out of date) and other relocation prorammes as well as glossy newspaper adds, and deceptive Property Shows, probably well avoided for some years.
You don’t hear of the pitfalls until you have paid your stage payments (also to be avoided), by then it’s often too late. If it sounds too good to be true, IT IS!!!!!! 😉
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Senor Nick wrote:
the great thing about property investment is that ……even if it crashes you dont lose all your money and you still have bricks and mortar.
Bricks and mortar that need maintaining, community fees/taxes paid.
Frank, Grant Bovey’s business has been losing millions before the credit crunch was a word 😆
Perviously any canny property investor would have set up their own development company. 30% off the punters to buid with before they even turned over the ground!
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Doing a quick search on the net, the following info came up:
Turkey 6%
Morocco 2.5%
Poland 3%
Bratislava 2 – 5%
Romania 6%
Brazil 5 – 10%The above figures are for registered licensed agents, of course, unregistered ones can charge what they like & I reckon the unregistered ones are the companies that will target the Brit market.
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I think you’ll find that hardly any agent will declare their commission rate, well the true rate, most agents in Spain are loathe to declare it, can’t think why agents in other so called ’emerging markets’ are going to tell the truth either especially whilst the market is in it’s infancy before people get wise to them. Anyway, many of those operating in these markets originally worked for the Spanish cowboy agents before Spain’s property market was found out.
When selling in these markets, properties which seem good value as was the case with Bulgaria, sometimes only 30-50k in price, the cowboys were still getting 10-30% commissions to make it worthwhile for themselves.
The industry worldwide is mainly unregulated so hyping unrealistic returns will continue to gullible people.
No-where is a good investment with world and currency volatility, then there’s taxes, repatriation of monies, management fees, and more to come out of the pot.
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@Just Frank wrote:
Look at Anthea Redferns hubby Grant Bovey 😯
Anthea Redfern? 😯
She was Bruce Forsythe’s ex-wife, you dooley.You mean Anthea Turner. 😆
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Can beat you on that Frank. A few of us including Anthea all used to share a flat in London together, end of the ’60’s. We were so broke we didn’t have a shilling for the meter – went to bed wearing football socks to keep warm! That was obviously before she met Brucie.
She’s actually a very kind, warm person and could be hysterically funny. Certainly not a ‘bimbo’, that was just an act for the telly. -
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@Just Frank wrote:
Well as they say its a small world.
Actually the world is just going to get even smaller – I’m back in Torquay next week and could well be in a pub NEAR YOU!! 😈
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I will not be too far away either 😯
This commissions issue…I don’t understand why they manage to be hidden 😕 When I have sold I have signed a contract with the Agent and that contract states the rate. The Agent has then been paid by us out of the proceeds of the sale. Even when we sold through VIVA we received a bill about one week after the sale for commission owed. When we have bought we have had all the papers which would be signed at the notary at least the day before. Therefore anything dodgy would have been spotted.
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