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It seems that most if not all the problems in Spanish properties are related to the clinches determines by politics (Zapatero hits the predecessors who want to hit him, etc). They do not care about foreign buyers when take revenge as the foreigners do not vote whereas Spaniards do.
The question is: could an agent (especially a British one with no knowledge of Spanish politics) have predicted the political prostitution? Can an agent predict it now?
Can anybody say what happens when Zapatero loses and the oposition comes back?
Are they going to declare lots of contructions illegal just to take revenge on Zapatero?IT happens just the same in Italy or Balcans. It is just that the foreigners are less affected in Italy and Balcans because they did not buy there…
I would say that lesson is to never buy in a foreign country, unless one has some very deep insight information about the regional politics…
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@flosmichael wrote:
The question is: could an agent (especially a British one with no knowledge of Spanish politics) have predicted the political prostitution? Can an agent predict it now?
I think few could have predicted what would have happened. The few people who had an inkling of what could happen, seem to genuingly think everything would be legalised and ‘sorted out’.
Better question could be, should a a foreigner simply be able to go to a foreign country and set up an estate agency without having far more in depth knowledge of how the country works, its law, etc…
@flosmichael wrote:
Are they going to declare lots of contructions illegal just to take revenge on Zapatero?
Well to use andalucia as an example. the political left have been in power down here as long as I can remember. I beleive a majority of townhall are also part of the PSOE with one or 2 being the united left. The rest are mainly partido popular (PP). Fuengirola has been run by the PP for I beleive a decade now, yet has not had any urbanisation become illegal simply because of politics, the few that have had ‘complications’ are due to developers not addhering to the architectural plans, etc…
Zapatero likes to blame the previous government, because like all politicians he can say ‘its not my fault’. That is far easier than him saying ‘let’s fix the problem’.
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@Fuengi wrote:
Better question could be, should a a foreigner simply be able to go to a foreign country and set up an estate agency without having far more in depth knowledge of how the country works, its law, etc…
Why not? I can go to Spain and open a chorizo company if I want to… The question is, would people buy from me or from somebody who produces chorizos for the last 100 years?
It is surprizing and worrisome why people trusted armchair UK based agencies to sell to them properties in Spain, Cyprus, Turkey or Bulgaria…
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@flosmichael wrote:
Why not? I can go to Spain and open a chorizo company if I want to… The question is, would people buy from me or from somebody who produces chorizos for the last 100 years?
and knows how to produce it, has the relevant hygiene certificates, etc…
@flosmichael wrote:
It is surprizing and worrisome why people trusted armchair UK based agencies to sell to them properties in Spain, Cyprus, Turkey or Bulgaria…
i know, quite scary
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Fuengi/flosmichael
I don’t know if many people trusted UK agents any more than they would trust agents in UK property? Where many of us made the mistake was thinking that the lawyer we used would be trustworthy enough to iron out potential problems and there would be a legal body that kept them in order. In other words, we believed in justice. Big mistake x 2!
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It could be argued that dealing with UK based companies such as Parador, Atlas & Masa shouldn’t have been the problem that it actually turned out to be.
These companies & their many competitors were/are just the sales agent, they ALL had Spanish partners that were the developers. These companies knew exactly what was going on, did they own the land, did they planning permission etc.
Because this sales business is unregulated & because the people employed in it, both in the Uk & Spain are/were only interested in getting the sale, questions were not asked that should have been.
Although the Brits in the sales side have to bear some responsibility the Spanish are the ones who could have sorted most of the problems out.
Politics will always be an issue & no one can predict how different parties will react several years after a development has been completed.
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@goodstich44 wrote:
Fuengi/flosmichael
I don’t know if many people trusted UK agents any more than they would trust agents in UK property? Where many of us made the mistake was thinking that the lawyer we used would be trustworthy enough to iron out potential problems and there would be a legal body that kept them in order. In other words, we believed in justice. Big mistake x 2!
In many foreign countries the justice depends on who is power. Something legal under one governent can become illegal under other government…
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@rob6578 wrote:
Politics will always be an issue & no one can predict how different parties will react several years after a development has been completed.
Exactly.
It might be that the EU might need to control all the property development issue all over Europe and to have a word on legality or illegality of buildings. It seems that the Spanish authorities cannot handle the issue and many (especially foreigners without inside knowledge) will always be burned…
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I do think that the problems in Spain can be split into the following:
1. Buyers who are lied to: their development is illegal, no BG, Almanzora Country Club & Trampolin Hills for example.
2. Legal developments but lawyers acting in collusion with developer, so no BG issued for example. Only a problem when things go wrong & it can then be seen why a BG should have been issued, by that time of course, the developer is broke & the money has gone.
3. Legal development, property built, EVERYTHING FINE, & then 3-8 years later, IN SECRET COURT HEARINGS, properties are declared illegal & the owners told that a demolition order has been issued.
Points 1 & 2 can be dealt with if a decent independant lawyer is used.
Point 3, how can anyone plan for that?
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@rob6578 wrote:
I do think that the problems in Spain can be split into the following:
1. Buyers who are lied to: their development is illegal, no BG, Almanzora Country Club & Trampolin Hills for example.
2. Legal developments but lawyers acting in collusion with developer, so no BG issued for example. Only a problem when things go wrong & it can then be seen why a BG should have been issued, by that time of course, the developer is broke & the money has gone.
3. Legal development, property built, EVERYTHING FINE, & then 3-8 years later, IN SECRET COURT HEARINGS, properties are declared illegal & the owners told that a demolition order has been issued.
Points 1 & 2 can be dealt with if a decent independant lawyer is used.
Point 3, how can anyone plan for that?
I guess to deal with 1) is the same as dealing with the pick-pockets in railway stations, simply be careful with the wallets.
2) can be partially dealt with and 3) can definitely be dealt with if the property issues are taken away from Spanish legal courts and moved to EU legal courts.
3) really is a matter of politics and for a foreigner there is no way to understand the web of hidden relations between authorities at various levels.
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@goodstich44 wrote:
flosmichael
yes, I think EU control should be bought in if member countries can’t agree on what’s acceptable. That would certainly help keep uniform idea’s that shouldn’t be altered by a political difference. If that had been the case say 10 years ago, I wonder how the industry would look now?
As Spain will soon go to beg for the rescue (same as Greece now and Portugal later),
Berlin should put a strong condition on solving all the legal issues before they part with any money. I am sure a bunch of germans lost their shirts in Spain too and they will not be happy to pay…If not now, then definitely never.
EU should not bought in, they should be the one who decide when dealing with countries who do not respect the laws…
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flosmichael:
While I agree with your suggestion I think you find that the Germans haven’t had the same problem that the Brits have had.
I read an article in the Sunday Times a week ago where it was claimed that Germans, on the whole, don’t buy off plan. They want to see what they are buying.
Of course, this doesn’t elimate every problem but it does mean that at least the place is built.
One other way to deal with my points 1 & 2 is to have a proper system of redress if the lawyer ‘screws up’, as operates here in the UK. Again, I suspect it will take EU pressure.
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the biggest problem as I see it, is that there is just not a common agreement on how member countries should act with regard to planning, legal and justice issues. Until a clear set of basic rules can be agreed and strict penalties implemented in perhaps the form of reduced subsidies for those who don’t play by the rules, (or anything that’s a big enough threat to force action) then I don’t think buying in countries with well reported human rights issues will ever be anything but a lottery? These rights should be above politics, and perhaps an EU department should be set up to police this?
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@goodstich44 wrote:
the biggest problem as I see it, is that there is just not a common agreement on how member countries should act with regard to planning, legal and justice issues. Until a clear set of basic rules can be agreed and strict penalties implemented in perhaps the form of reduced subsidies for those who don’t play by the rules, (or anything that’s a big enough threat to force action) then I don’t think buying in countries with well reported human rights issues will ever be anything but a lottery? These rights should be above politics, and perhaps an EU department should be set up to police this?
Goodstitch, not really a lottery.
If one buys in Spain in established areas then I do not think that there could be any problem. All the problems appeared in very poor regions like Andalucia an despecially in former deserted areas like parts of Almeria. Nobody thought that anybody could ever be interested to build anything over there… The Brits and other Northerners were a gold mine falling from the sky
If I were from Catalunia or Navarra, I would be offended to hear that Spain is such a corrupt country. The poorer the area, the more corrupted. And Andalucia was amongst the poorest.
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Just another here to be added to political decisions etc. saw it on another forum. Think it was discussed briefly on here some years ago. The Junta are “revising, renewing” all the footpaths. Locals claim that the width is a way of turning them into roads…oh and stealing land of course (usually British owners, of course!)
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flosmichael
yes, from a building point of view I agree, but if you have to sue for whatever reason, what (at the risk of repetition!) chance justice in a fair timescale?. Thankfully most now with all the available info’ perhaps never have to find out?, but it’s not what many would assume! It’s all very much part of the problem, and not lost i’m sure on those who play the system.
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Katy I mentioned this ,on this forum, last year as it is affecting some friends of our. All of whom are Spanish. Most are due to lose about 10 metres of frontage but for one the route goes through the middle of the property !!
Thanks for link shall send it to them. Might be of some assistance but don’t expect they will hold their breaths.
edited..spelling 😳 -
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I’m reading ‘TheBattle for Spain – The Spanish Civil War 1936 – 1939’, Anthony Beevor at the mo.
Wow – what an insight. You can almost understand the Spanish attitude towards property ownership and how their system of politics developed. It doesn’t excuse them, but it exposes vicious infighting on both sides, insecurity, disillusionment and despair.
How many people thought they were buying into Britain with sun-shine ❓
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Suppose this part of “spanish politics” suits this thread too
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