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Hi all,
I’ve just been having a coffee with a friend who’s told a VERY interesting bit of gossip!
Her boyfriend works for an agency that recently made a bit of a stir by dropping its commission down to 2% from 7.5%. We’ve all seen the advertising, I’m sure.
It now looks like they’re going back to 7.5%!
I wonder how this is going to affect all the people who have paid the upfront fees? What was it? Between 400€ and 1.000€?
Will this money be refunded? Or will these listings stay at 2% + 1%?Will this agency try and join an interagency group again? Or set up a new one?
Anyone else heard anything?
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as i understood.
its 7.5% if its with another agent while 5% if its them.
Considering the idea of 2% was that they could sell the own properties at this rate, which i assume is not working aswell as they hoped…
more than likely they need the other agents, so i think alot of their clients will be getting charge 7.5%.I guess we’ll see
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as i understood.
its 7.5% if its with another agent while 5% if its them.
Considering the idea of 2% was that they could sell the own properties at this rate, which i assume is not working aswell as they hoped…
more than likely they need the other agents, so i think alot of their clients will be getting charge 7.5%.I guess we’ll see
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@Fuengi wrote:
i’m also curious to see the advertising in the SUR in english….
NO Viva extract in the SUR in English this week…..
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@Fuengi wrote:
i’m also curious to see the advertising in the SUR in english….
NO Viva extract in the SUR in English this week…..
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Yes this is true Viva have now gone back to 5% for a direct sale and 7.5% if they have to split the commisssion . My friend told me that they has to do this as all the staff were walking out.
I see in this weeks Sur there is no mention of the new rates ,But they are looking for staff (Yet again).After all this fuss they have made I bet no other agency will work with them ….. 😀
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Yes this is true Viva have now gone back to 5% for a direct sale and 7.5% if they have to split the commisssion . My friend told me that they has to do this as all the staff were walking out.
I see in this weeks Sur there is no mention of the new rates ,But they are looking for staff (Yet again).After all this fuss they have made I bet no other agency will work with them ….. 😀
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@charlie1 wrote:
Yes this is true Viva have now gone back to 5% for a direct sale and 7.5% if they have to split the commisssion . My friend told me that they has to do this as all the staff were walking out.
I see in this weeks Sur there is no mention of the new rates ,But they are looking for staff (Yet again).After all this fuss they have made I bet no other agency will work with them ….. 😀
want to bet on it?
fact is if an agent can get 50% of 7.5% they will. Although there are agents that have standards some will just be looking at the bottom line. And considering how some agents seem to be feeling the pinch now that the off-plan market has…. calmed, they would deal with satan himself.
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The latest on Viva commission.
I have been advised by a friend of mine that the latest commission structure by Viva is as under.
The commissions are 2+1% or 7.5%!
The 2 +1 option means you pay 1% upfront as a listing fee entitling you to the 2% commission. Otherwise you pay 7.5% as normal!!!
Can anybody confirm or deny.
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I agree with Paul. In the past when Spanish properties were cheap as chips say an agent charging 5%+ was acceptable as he/she had to pay their bills and feed the family etc. It was also hard work as mortgages were not so readily availible.
In, todays time the properties are costing as much as other major cities of Europe this charges cannot be justified.
In, UK where the commission is 1.50 % the estate agents make a good living with very similar overheads.
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I have to disagree Shakeel.
The fact is that an agent in the UK will generate many more unit sales per annum than an estate agent in Spain. There is a greater domestic market in the UK which creates a greater number of movements per year.
Many agents will charge 1.5% but there are an equal number who will be charging 2% and more like 3% for a multiple instruction.
You cannot compare the average fee in the UK with that in Spain because the average value of a property in the UK is that much more expensive.
Over recent years agents have done very well out of the “foreign” market but with this decreasing then, if anything, agents will need to increase fees to create the same level of income that they are used to (not that I am suggesting this by the way).
Having worked in a reasonable town in the UK and averaging 15-20 sales per month it is a shock to see many agents in Spain only selling 5 or 6 properties in a year!
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The days when a Spanish estate agent could sell properties from the comfort of his deck chair on the beach are long gone. During the mid late nineties if you had an office presence you could rely on a good flow of walk in clients as people clamoured to buy properties at relatively cheap prices. Most walk in these days are either bored with the beach, the weathers not so good, or just looking to do some free sightseeing, (or all).
Whilst the objective of an Estate Agent in the Uk is the same as one in Spain, the process is much different. In the Uk the buyer invariably goes to the agent, in Spain we effectively have to go to the buyer. To gain as much exposure as possible for our vendors property we use a variety of methods, local advertising (costly and not effective), web sites (apart from our own we list properties on 7 other websites) exhibitions, promoting our properties through a network of UK agents specialising in selling overseas property, plus of course through our own office.
All of our UK agents expect a 50-50 split on commissions. With other websites we list either on pay per month basis, or again we have to split commissions (lowest 1% of sales price)
We have the associated cost of picking people up from airports, taking people sometimes a long distance to view properties returning them to airports (yes we do take them back if they don’t buy). Because most of the potential clients and our agent base are in the UK our phone bills exceed 600 euros per month.
Employment costs are far in excess of the UK, with SS payments up to a staggering 29% against a max 12% in the UK.
Company tax in the UK is nil up to 75k euros audited profit
19% up to 435k euros audited profit
30% above thisCompany tax in Spain is 30% up to 120k euros audited profit
35% above thisFor our services and I do believe we provide a good one we charge 5% (this includes IVA). Often negotiated lower to help close a sale.
One of the reasons we like to maintain the initial commissions at this level is that we often reduce to as low as 3% to help the vendor close a sale, with all the above we would not be able to do so on an initial commission level of 2-3%.
When listing a new property I was tackled about our 5% commission as he had the property with another agent charging 2.5%. I very politely explained why our charge was 5% and explained what we would offer in return, at this point he admitted that the other agent had achieved no viewings for his property in 9 months.
Oh I while I am on my high horse, lets not forget those vendors that make our jobs so easy by having ridiculously high expectations of the value of their property, then present it for sale in s**t order, dirty, untidy, with paint peeling of walls and overgrown gardens. Then cap it all by saying to potentially interested viewers:
You can hardly hear the traffic
Next doors dog doesn’t bark all the time
The septic tank had a leak but its ok now
You can barely see the land fill and anyway they are going to stop using it soon
The neighbours are Spanish and you know how noisy they can be
(the list goes on)Obviously not all vendors are bad, just like not all agents are bad, many leave us to show and sell the house properly, some however just have to get involved and then wonder why the viewing didn’t go well.
If someone thinks that all agents are fat cats making a fortune at the expense of nieve vendors and buyers please let me know where we are going wrong, we work long and hard to not become wealthy.
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AuntyVal
I agree that the two markets are different and in Spain the volume of transations may be lower ( I am talking about Spain as whole not CDS or CB)
The corroletion between sales/commission remains the same if you have a larger volume to sell your turn over will be higher.
The overhead cost are a common denominator in all ciities. The silly expectations of the sale prices by the vendors are also the same every year but on top of that if you add the higher agents fee, other selling cost. I am not surprised that it takes ages to shift a property ( The later is not down to the agent charges ofcourse)
The agents must learn about the concept of pile them high and sell them cheap. What I mean by this is lowering commission will bring volume not perhaps in the current market.
I feel that this a good time for the industry to take stock and come come out lean and fit when the market recovers in the near future.
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More news on the millsbomb blog site.
Chris buys back controlling share in Viva
http://millsbomb.blogspot.com/search/label/Spanish%20Property
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Shakeel I agree with your view. Aunty Val’s comments that UK agents make more unit sales per annum than agents in Spain is incorrect where the Costa del Sol and Blanca were concerned a few years back with their ‘larger’ agents, although it might be different now.
I well remember Awful and a few others boasting of sales of 100’s per month, having a coversion rate of 90% or so from their inspection trip clients for the Costas, made up mainly of so called ‘investor clients’ with a view to re-selling before completion. Now we all know that this was not achieved by soooooooo many of these clients because once they’d purchased they were left in the lurch.
As for Val’s opinion about average property prices being higher in the UK than Spain, once again not so on the C. del Sol and a few other places, where a table once came out stating that average prices were almost the
same in the UK and the C.del Sol.As I’ve said before you get a poor set of particulars for your 5-7% and upwards, from agents in Spain, compared with sales particulars for 1.5% in the UK. There’s no comparison at all, commission in Spain and generally abroad are a complete rip-off compared to the UK.
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Yes its true that on the whole it is very bad in Spain. Agents seem to earn a fortune but there are a few who are cheaper at least – I know of one who opens charges 2.5% and sometimes as low as 2%. They still advertize and go to shows as well.
I sold my apartment through them and found was happy – although I certainly didnt get as much money as I had been told I would get by the agent I bought it through!
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The underlying factor behind the argument that agents “have” to charge such high commissions because the unit sales per agent per annum are low, is surely that there are too many estate agents vying for the business. If there were less agents then they would all do more business…greater share of the cake and all that.
Hopefully, if the industry is re-regulated, many of the unqualified/bar room agents will cease to trade, leaving the legal, decent, honest and truthful ones able to make a good living charging sensible commissions.
I don’t object to paying reasonable commissions but do expect quality of service in return. Everyone has to make a living after all. But when agents want to charge 20,30% or more commission for not doing a great deal, then I object! -
Agree with what you say hillybilly.
Have no problem with the honest agents trying to make a living in Spain.
The Gov’t regulators need to clear out the scammers, regulate the industry properly, restrict overdevelopment of remaining green and coastal areas.
Lower commissions, produce proper sales particulars, give a professional personal service to selling property whether re-sale or new-build, have good honest aftersales service, and restore image and then confidence in the market.
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@Roberta wrote:
. . Agents seem to earn a fortune . . .
This may well have been true, historically. But I doubt it over the last two or so years. Many firms are in big trouble, and many individual sales agents earn much much less than the big recruitment ads might lead one to believe. Big firms have a great deal of trouble retaining staff – money and the possible unpleasant nature of the job (or the nature of management pressure) are the principal reasons – that’s why they’re advertising non-stop.
No crocodile tears are called-for. “Agents” (whoever/whatever that might mean) may or may not be unscrupulous scum or ordinary people just like you and me trying to earn a living. But keep clear about what the industry’s economics are like, nowadays.Very interesting news about Chris McCarthy and Viva. Reflects very unstable market conditions?
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Yes, that’s right.
AltaVista has an elevated position with views over the valley and Fuengirola, to the Med but that will also mean some strong winds. La Mota is greatly to be regretted (well, they both are) and what was once quite a nice rural road to Coin will be (is already) spoiled. There is great controversy about La Mota and also Barranco Blanco, a large prospective urbanisation in the ‘hidden’ valley south of the road. Permissions for both were granted some many years ago, there is more than a whiff of official “encouragements” and fears about whether there is enough water to serve these developments.Still, we like Alhaurin Golf and its location a great deal. There are still many great walks along forest tracks on the Sierra de Mijas. And we like Alhaurin too, though some find it a bit rough around the edges.
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@Paul wrote:
Lower commissions, produce proper sales particulars, give a professional personal service to selling property whether re-sale or new-build, have good honest aftersales service, and restore image and then confidence in the market.
One of the reasons that bad agents thrive is that many buyers are very promiscuous when dealing with agents. Few make any attempt to filter out the unqualified, inexperienced, and unscrupulous.
While some buyers have been defrauded despite taking the necessary precautions, I believe many buyers should accept part of the blame for their misfortune.
Indeed in my experience, dishonest agents prosper because the law is ineffective and clients are undiscriminating. Forums such as this are one of the few successful attempts to raise expectations.
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@Rawlins wrote:
One of the reasons that bad agents thrive is that many buyers are very promiscuous when dealing with agents. Few make any attempt to filter out the unqualified, inexperienced, and unscrupulous.
…….. I believe many buyers should accept part of the blame for their misfortune.
Yet another ‘well-informed’ and ‘unbiased’ contribution from an agent. 🙄
However, Rawlins, you failed to mention that we buyers should of course also accept (part of?) the blame for the existence of corrupt lawyers and developers…….
come on now, don’t hold back on our account. -
Rawlins
if joe bloggs went to his bank manager for advice, and 6 months later found the bank manager had given him advice that had made him worse off, not better, i wouldn’t expect people to say ‘ well that’s joe bloggs fault for trusting the manager, he should have known that might happen’
Yes, people are naive, and much more so when dealing with a system they don’t and can’t understand without years of training. As has been said many times, at some stage we have to trust that person we are paying to work for us, and if the trust of a decent person is betrayed by a clever liar/cheat/fraud it is just wrong!
As you say, the ststem is at fault, but please dont try and put blame on buyers, that for whatever reason have just been conned!
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Rawlins, it’s not ‘SOME’ buyers that have been defrauded by agents in Spain, it’s more like 1000’s!
As goodstich44 says, buyers tend to trust the agents since they are supposed to be the experts, often British, and extolling the virtues of buying in Spain and elswhere, and they act like financial advisors. Yes, people are naive, but it’s the fault mainly of the lying agents, and a few years back there were too many of them in Spain, ex timeshare cowboys often. How on earth could people sift the few good ones out from the many cheats?
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@Paul wrote:
How on earth could people sift the few good ones out from the many cheats?
That is a good question, Paul.
I have just written half a dozen points on the back of an envelope but then I realised that I was simply describing our agency – and that isn’t very objective or fair.
What is the acid test for identifying a good agency – if such a test exists?
Suggestions welcomed.
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First you say buyers are partly to blame for the mess they’re in for not ‘filtering’ out the good agencies from the bad:
@Rawlins wrote:
Few (buyers) make any attempt to filter out the unqualified, inexperienced, and unscrupulous (agents).
Then you admit you don’t know how they could do it anyway.
@Rawlins wrote:
What is the acid test for identifying a good agency – if such a test exists?
Suggestions welcomed.Pathetic.
A good example of Agents coming on this forum and ‘contributing’ total Bo***cks.
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@charlie wrote:
A good example of Agents coming on this forum and ‘contributing’ total Bo***cks.
Charlie
Would you rather agents did not contribute to this forum?
Would you prefer to exchange insults for discussion?
Perhaps you got out of bed the wrong side this morning and needed somebody to rant against – however, I am sure that such a response is not contributing anything useful to the forum.
If you do feel the urge to insult me then I suggest you send me a private message.
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Rawlins, what a daft comment ‘what is the acid test for identifying a good agency’?.
Surely, one that offers ‘honesty, transparency and integrity’ to all of it’s clients. Now we all know about the oft mentioned agencies here who don’t know the meaning of those words even though they use it on their websites etc.
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Paul wrote:❓
Rawlins, what a daft comment ‘what is the acid test for identifying a good agency’?.
quote]
I can’t agree with you on this, Paul.
We have had many threads discussing how bad some agents are and the bad things some agents do. So how can a potential buyer or seller identify a good agent? What are the characteristics – beyond adjectives on a website – that identify a good agent?
Surely, this is a question worth asking and worth trying to answer.
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I have thought about this problem before and come to no conclusion. Sorting the good from the bad cannot be left to experience, as it is to late after the event. Why don’t you overcome your modesty Rawlins and share the back of your fag packet with us just to start the ball rolling. I winced when i read Charlies comment, no need for such gratuitous abuse.
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Rawlins – you have been living in Spain for 16 years and are in the property business.
If you can’t answer your own question about how to check if an agent is good or bad (something you accuse buyers of not doing), how on earth do you expect buyers who come out to Spain to do it?
DITTER – I’m just tired of agents putting the blame on purchasers who have been screwed by the whole corrupt triangle of dodgy agents/lawyers/developers.
They come up with ‘blame’ and then admit they don’t have the answers.
Sorry you had to ‘wince’ – that is nothing compared to the stress, sleepless nights and ill-health that has resulted for a lot of us caused by certain lying, corrupt agents. -
Charlie wrote:
“If you can’t answer your own question about how to check if an agent is good or bad (something you accuse buyers of not doing), how on earth do you expect buyers who come out to Spain to do it? “
Despite living in Spain 16 years, I am happy to admit that I don’t have all the answers to the question. And I will almost certainly go to the grave without finding all the answers to this question – or any other.(In fact, I would suggest that a forum discussion is practically impossible if one of the participants is totally convinced that he or she knows the whole answer.)
My suggestions about how to identify a good agent will be inevitably tilted to favour the type of agency I run.
However, as Ditter points out, somebody should get the ball rolling and so I will propose a several points. However, please don’t jump on me for suggesting points that simply favour myself.
1. Look for an agency that clearly identifies its owners, physical address, and tax registration.
2. Look for an agency that handles a relatively small number of properties in a small geographical area and so has direct contact with all of its sellers and knows the patch.
3. Look for an agency that actively markets resales and new developments.
If this discussion gets going, I will add some other suggestions later.
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i feel we should have a voluntary ongoing positive/negative feedback survey on agents, lawyers and developers. Those who wish not to take part, we can assume have something to hide and are terrified of the many negative comments. The honest decent one’s would get the free advertising and business they deserve, as long as they keep their noses clean. If the list that we can all contribute to (contributors would also need to be transparent) was very visable across all sites similar to this, and everyone only used companys on the ongoing positive list, it would after a while hopefully have an effect, and the lowlife would get what they deserve. Also if there was a very visable list, then people really can’t grumble if they choose to use a company not on the positive list, and all agents/lawyers/developers would not get tarred with the same brush! I guess for legal/cost reasons, this probably wouldn’t be workable, but for me and a lot of others, i think it could have been life changing.
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@goodstich44 wrote:
i feel we should have a voluntary ongoing positive/negative feedback survey on agents, lawyers and developers. Those who wish not to take part, we can assume have something to hide and are terrified of the many negative comments. The honest decent one’s would get the free advertising and business they deserve, as long as they keep their noses clean. If the list that we can all contribute to (contributors would also need to be transparent) was very visable across all sites similar to this, and everyone only used companys on the ongoing positive list, it would after a while hopefully have an effect, and the lowlife would get what they deserve. Also if there was a very visable list, then people really can’t grumble if they choose to use a company not on the positive list, and all agents/lawyers/developers would not get tarred with the same brush! I guess for legal/cost reasons, this probably wouldn’t be workable, but for me and a lot of others, i think it could have been life changing.
This is a great idea in theory, but wasn´t it discussed before? The danger is that rival developers/agents etc would pose as disgruntled clients to damage their competitors trade.
I suppose the only way around it would be for everyone to be completely identifiable. You would have to post using at least your full name and town where you live. That could make a few people nervous about posting their opinions if they are negative.
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Whilst the question of rogue agents and how to find a good one is in theory hard to answer, I do like the idea of agents in their real name posting on the forum and letting others answer – providing of course the people replying are equally open in their status.
We at Direct Auctions have been as open and direct as we can. We answer questions honestly and have, I know, lost sales where we have not been prepared to bend the truth. Matching clients requirements to the property is another issue not covered by agents. We endeavour at all time to do so. The auction method is very open – all documentation is prepared before hand, the property inspected and only on the day of the auction is the price decided by the buyer.
I would recommend buyers using agents to ask for references from buyers which should be provided by the agent, but then again I guess these can be dodgy as well!
Unfortunately the Costa del Sol does attract the second hand car mentality with everyone out for what they can get!
Even after living here myself for 12 years I get ripped off, unfortunately usually by my own nationality!
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Its monitering it and policing thats the problem. There are I think loads of good agents out there, usually the smaller ones who get on with it and enjoy living in Spain, want to help people and realise that estate agency is a recycling process!
I guess the best thing to do is the opposite of the UK/Ireland and stay AWAY from the big ones as I dont know if any large agencies with a good reputations – we speak everyday to people in terrible circumstances haveing bought on the so called advice of agents.
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@Inez wrote:
Its monitering it and policing thats the problem. There are I think loads of good agents out there, usually the smaller ones who get on with it and enjoy living in Spain, want to help people and realise that estate agency is a recycling process!
Agreed. However, buyers who contentedly buy through good agents and happily settle into their new properties are unlikely to join a forum such this.
I believe that it is possible to prepare a short checklist that would help filter out most of the bad agents. Preparing such a list would be a practical way to help buyers evaluate agents and make better buying decisions.
Can anyone suggest points to add?
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Agreed. However, buyers who contentedly buy through good agents and happily settle into their new properties are unlikely to join a forum such this.
I did!
One tip I would give is to remember the agent is at best working for the vendor or at worst working only for his/her own profit, they never work for the buyer, ever. This goes wherever you are in the world, they had to introduce laws in the UK to try and stop misrepresentation.
Regards
Paul
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Rawlins, I don’t wish to appear rude but you seem to be in a world of your own, I mean, I gave you what seems to be a straight forward answer and you don’t seem able to grasp it. Buyers don’t know who to trust in Spain, you have talked your agency up, but how could anyone trust you, what credentials does youragency have over and above so many rogues?
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Paul, perhaps I do live in a world of my own. No offence taken.
I simply suggested that the members of the forum might wish to suggest criteria that could be added to a checklist to help people filter out rogue agents.
I suggested a few points.
Perhaps, on reflection, it’s an impossible task; or perhaps nobody cares.
Yet it was, I believe, a constructive proposal.
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@Rawlins wrote:
….buyers who contentedly buy through good agents and happily settle into their new properties are unlikely to join a forum such this.
This is very true. SPI is very biased towards the negativity of buying in Spain when the truth is that thre is a vast majority of people happy with their puchase and who have profited from it.
Reading this forum one lose’s the Big Picture and it would seem that buying in Spain was a total nightmare when in fact this is not the case.
Almost all REA, lawyers and developers are treated like crooks by many posters when in fact the vast majority are hard working and respectable.
It would be nice to have some fresh air for a change and also hear from those who had a good experience, the vast majority, but as Rawlins correctly points out you won’t have such persons ranting in this forum.
Some posters here -who self-admitedly have never paid taxes in their lifes and proudly admit it in this forum- keep posting such negativity and criticism that has me amazed. And now if you excuse me, I have to go to work to pay off my mortgage and taxes.
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@Drakan wrote:
Almost all REA, lawyers and developers are treated like crooks by many posters when in fact the vast majority are hard working and respectable
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When asked who these “respectable” people are, they are not named!Some posters here -who self-admitedly have never paid taxes in their lifes and proudly admit it in this forum-
Drakan I read a great percentage of posts on the forum and not once have I seen anyone admit to tax evasion! 😯 Name & shame!
Personally, I would love to be able to post some positive news. But then I did when our wonderful Lawyer helped us win our money back!! 😀 It was a case of third lawyer lucky!
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So Rawlins, since you said on this thread:
“Few (buyers) make any attempt to filter out the unqualified, inexperienced, and unscrupulous (agents)”, and as a consequence are partly to blame for the mess they are in….
you admirably asked for a discussion/suggestions how buyers could actually do this.
I thought I would sit back for a few days and see what positive suggestions/solutions on this problem would come up.
A noticeable lack of contributions/suggestions from other agents on the forum I notice….Since your accusation, you’ve written:
“What is the acid test for identifying a good agency – if such a test exists?
Suggestions welcomed”.“Even the worst agents have mums, friends, and associates who would be happy to write a false testimony”.
“Perhaps, on reflection, it’s an impossible task; or perhaps nobody cares”.
Perhaps, “on reflection” it was a thoughtless and misguided accusation in the first place.
The bottom line is when a buyer comes out to Spain, despite there being many good honest agents around (and lawyers, Drakan), finding them is just a lottery.
Yes, some people are lucky – and others are not. And there doesn’t seems to be an answer, at least here, to change this situation.
Until there is an answer – I firmly believe that buyers are not partly to blame when they get screwed and resent the suggestion that they are.
Blaming buyers for the mess the industry is in is not the way forward to improve things. -
Names ? Anyone interested just PM me and I’ll give names.
http://spanishpropertyinsight.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1890&start=15
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How is it my posts are used as an example for a topic which I haven’t been making a contribution and what does taxes have to do with crooked agents and lawyers ❓ Spain must be the number one country (except for the third world) for tax dodging/black money.
As for negative posts ❗ What has happened to thousand of buyers over the last few years they are warranted. It is true that many buyers don’t have problems. I have bought and sold 4 times in ten years without problems but reading this forum, may just have been lucky. Oh BTW paid a fortune in CG taxes and purchase taxes and overpriced lawyers fees 😡
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Rawlins, I’m sure many of us here could contribute pointers for agents’ criteria but, would agents listen or adhere to what we would consider to be ‘our more honest’ code of practice?
The industry should really be properly regulated in Spain by it’s Government, it should be led by them, not by prospective purchasers who are often in the dark about who to trust, maybe along the lines of UK regulation for agents.
By the way, which agent do you work for? It would be interesting for us to know since you are suggesting it’s more honest than others! PM me if you don’t wish to post here.
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Hi Charlie,
I think I can answer for
A noticeable lack of contributions/suggestions from other agents on the forum I notice….
Rawlins made an excellent idea that forum members could make some suggestions of what purchasers would like to see from their agents. However, instead of embracing this idea the thread continues with the normal negativity that every agent is a dishonest cheat.
As an agent it has become only worth posting if you really feel you can make a difference. Any other posts are likely to be met with negativity and hostility from the usual people who have absolutly no idea who we are. I think I mentioned before but being an agent on this forum is about as popular as a rattlesnake in a lucky dip.
In fact the forum is so negative to buying in Spain that any person seeing this forum for the first time would be terrified to purchase there.
But as Rawlins and Draken point out, there are thousands and thousands of happy purchasers who have used good agents throughout Spain but it is unlikely they will be posting here.
So how about taking Rawlins up on his suggestion and actually making a contribution to his idea?
Best wishes
Bernard
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Paul’s call for greater regulation is excellent, as it is long over-due. But those of us interested now in a purchase, have to operate with the system we have at present.
P800aul advice must be applied every time an EA opens their mouth. Rawlins three tips are also helpful, but (like a lot of advice on this subject) are not always easily applied in practice. This makes people suspicious of even the most open and honest agent. -
Hi Bernard.
Whilst I can understand what you would like to see on this forum, I do not think it will ever be achieved, IMHO, for the following reason.
If everything is hunkydory in your life then who/why would you seek out a forum? Of the forums that I have used , the contributors usually have problems that they are seeking help/ solutions to. The people who use this forum, by and large, have/are experiencing the same type of problems. If people who come here for the first time are given a rude awakening as to all tht can go wrong when buying property, then that as far as I can see can only be good. If they heed the advice and experience we have had, then hopefully they can avoid the pitfalls. We for one would have loved it if this forum was around in 2003/4 when we got sucked in.I certainly wouldn’t be wasting my time using forums if I was now able to sit and enjoy our home in Spain. Also, even though we were lucky to have got our deposit money back, we are still more than £20,000 poorer. Our success was 99% down to this forum being here and meeting the people (in person)that I have. In real life, I am a shrinking violet mother/housewife!! 😉
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@Paul wrote:
Rawlins, I’m sure many of us here could contribute pointers for agents’ criteria but, would agents listen or adhere to what we would consider to be ‘our more honest’ code of practice?
Hi Paul
I am not suggesting a code of practice or anything that agents have to actively participate in.
What I am suggesting is that the forum members put their heads together and try to establish a list of points for buyers to look for when deciding which agents to contact.
This would work in much the same way as you might prepare a list of ‘musts’ when interviewing people for a job or choosing a new car.
As you ask, my contact details are at the bottom of this posting where is says profile and www.
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I am not suggesting a code of practice or anything that agents have to actively participate in.
Why not Rawlins.? That would be a good starting point. The whole problem is that the EA’s are not governed and held to account. If they were then we could all feel confident walking into any EA office …big or small.
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Drakan
It would be nice to have some fresh air for a change and also hear from those who had a good experience, the vast majority, but as Rawlins correctly points out you won’t have such persons ranting in this forum.
I agree with you wholeheartedly and in the past I have given my happy account of buying in Spain, and I for one would recommend it to anyone. I have expressed this opinion many times, and on occasions ‘flamed’ for my view, along with being accused as somehow working for this promoter or that Lawyer etc. I even suggested at one point that this forum was a bit of a ‘closed shop’, in other words if the poster challenged the general negative view they where hounded out of the forum.
My view for what it’s worth is that Spain is not much worst than UK for bad agents, poor lawyers and corrupt planning. As I have said before the apartment was bought from Erilia via a small agent, who I still see for a beer now and again. It was off plan and Erilia were as hard to deal with as any UK building company I’ve dealt with regarding snagging etc. The apartment was about one year late (slightly worst than the UK) and the lawyers (again one reviled here) were good and I still use them.
We organised our own flights, hotel and I spoke to two agents over the telephone before we arrived to arrange to see them. One was the small agency we used, the other was a large agency called O.E. I left them in no doubt what we wanted to see and how much time we had, the small agent turned up and I still waiting in the car park for O.E. as they never showed, maybe I put them off 🙂
Like most i read all of the books regarding buying in Spain and coinsidently i came across an old one last weekend first published in 1972 update in 1992 with a whole chapter on what could go wrong and the precautions to take when buying in Spain. Without knowing the date of publication if presented here verbatim you would swear the author had taken ALL (and I mean all, PM me and I’ll send it you) of the warning outlined on this site and published them in his 1972 book. Clearly an enlightened author 🙂
People here say I was lucky, yet I don’t believe in luck, maybe that’s what makes me “lucky”
Regards
Paul
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Does anybody know of anyone who has sold with Viva at 2% ??????
As they say in the adverts ‘Do The Maths”’
An Identical property in lets say El Soto de Marbella a Viva Exclusive for sale at 300.000 could be marketed at 2% or now 7.5%
The commission for the rep on a 2% sale will be 1080 Euro
The same property but marketed at 7.5% will give the agent 4050 euroWhich one do you all think the agent will sell especially as they have had the basic wage taken off them and all the company cars have been sent back ????????? 🙄
Also very interesting is Hot Properties this month Viva Planet !!!!!!!
I recall Chris himself writing an article about Boiler Room Sales
WE WILL NEVER SELL ANYWHERE ELSE THAN WHERE MY 200 STAFF LIVE.!!!!Perhaps now with most if the old staff leaving and having trouble recruting new ones his Call centre is now in India !!!! 😆 😆 😆
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@charlie1 wrote:
Viva ….
…..Which one do you all think the agent will sell especially as they have had the basic wage taken off them and all the company cars have been sent back ?????????
Is this a fact ? If this is the case it can only mean one thing: that VIVA is closing down, which would really surprise me. Downsizing would be reasonable in a depressed market such as this, but closing down would be a big surprise for me. Where did you get this information from Charlie1 ?
I guess this will have to be confirmed or denied by someone from VIVA itself.
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Just a propblem in Spain, I dont think so! To my knowledge it is not compulsary to belong to any organisation or to be qualified to practice as an Estate Agent in the UK either.
I know this doesnt help the problems in Spain but possibly helps to address the balance.
Jim
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Well it just shows things havent changed since I was in real estate in London back in the mid 80’s !
Spanish agents used to have to pass exams and be regulated as in the USA, but this was dropped years ago.
There are rumours it will be bought back and at least then this will phase out the sharks who have to pass exams and allow redress to buyers dissatified with the servie and actions of their agent.
Self regulation unfortunately doesnt work!
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That article is old news! The TV documentary was about Foxtons. They are horrendous!! Most High Street EA’s are now regulated, but that doesn’t mean they are good.
http://www.naea.co.uk/help/complaints.asp
At least the EA’s in the UK don’t get back handers from dodgy lawyers…because they really are regulated with a rod of iron.
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At least the EA’s in the UK don’t get back handers from dodgy lawyers…because they really are regulated with a rod of iron
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/main.jhtml?xml=/property/2001/09/15/pscam15.xml
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There is no reference to UK EA’s paying back handers to lawyers in that article!!
As I said 99% of high street EA’s are members of NAEA and they are regulated. If we have a complaint, then there is a body to take up the cudgels for you. If the EAs don’t show the logo… then don’t use them. Nothing exists in Spain to regulate EAs. -
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Quote from BBC new online March 2006
“It places estate agencies in a powerful position, with so much at stake you would expect there to be stringent rules about who can set up such a business.
There aren’t. This may go some way to explaining the industry’s bad reputation, which has only been reinforced by a BBC investigation exposing agents lying to customers, faking signatures, obtaining false passports and doing dodgy deals with developers.
Under the Estate Agents Act 1979 anyone can set up in business as one unless they have been banned by the Office of Fair Trading or are bankrupt. But even with the latter, they are free to work for another estate agent – just not open their own”
The only recourse is if the Agents are members of a voluntary organisation.
A search on the NAEA site list 37 members in Spain so there is 37 companies regulated, http://www.naea.co.uk/agents/international.asp
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@Inez wrote:
Personally we refused to join any of these as it just adds supposed credibility to an agency who may not act that way!
I hope that doesn’t mean you include yourselves in that bracket, hence you refuse to join?? 😆
Only kidding….. -
Whilst it’s not compulsory to belong to a regulatory body in the UK for Estate Agents yet, a Bill was passed in the Queen’s Speech Nov 15th 2006 to do just that and clean things up here.
However there are several self regulatory bodies here already such as the OEA, RICS, and the NAEA all of which have proper complaints procedure, and members are bound by rules of conduct.
Then there’s Trading Standards, and finally the Courts ( which don’t take 5 years as is often the case in Spain).
What are Spain’s regulatory bodies (please don’t say API which is totally inept), I mean if you are Ocean Estates yoor lawyer rather than the agent can hold the API number?
As for Foxtons who were slated and exposed for dirty tricks here, well they are now larging it in Spain too, seeing this as a market to maybe get away with things without regulation!
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Rawlins, interesting to see you are based in Valencia region.
I imagine it does not have anything like the problems experienced on the Costas, well, certainly not the number of problems. I do think some of the Costas’ Agents etc, are the problem for Spain’s tarnished property industry as a whole, would you agree?
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Hiya Charlie. Yes I thought it sounded like that when I wrote it!
I just feel we all get tarred with the same brush if you are a member of a ‘regulatory organization’ and the bad boys are there as well. Plus we did join a european one, paid all the money, agreed to attend their first show and they went bust with our dosh!
AIPP are the same – too much money by the big boys buys silence and bias.
Truth will out in the long run and buyers will find out who to go to for sound advice
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The one in Marbella is not much better.
We know of someone who wanted to report his lawyer for lying to him for two years, saying he had got him a Bank Guarantee – then it eventually turned out he hadn’t.
He is now left totally financially-exposed (100,000 euros worth) on a development that has no LFO, a suspended building licence. And of course no Bank Guarantee.He made an official complaint to the Colegio about this lawyer’s actions, and after months and months – finally got their reply that they would not be taking any action whatsoever as they felt the lawyer hadn’t “broken any of their rules”.
By the way, I’m sure I read somewhere that the new Colegio building in Marbella does/did not have a LFO (or was it building licence?).
Wonder if they sacked their lawyer ❓ 😯 -
So what are they there for?
We always thought they were the ‘Last Resort’. We got the impression from this forum that reporting to this organisation would get results.
Our experience in Spain is that no-one replies. We have never been so ignored! But it works – what can you do when no-one takes any notice? -
For lawyers, it looks hopeless.
For developers, the lady in the Marbella branch of OMIC is great (immediately demanded a meeting with our developer and gave them a good rollocking for threatening to keep our deposit if we didn’t complete. Needless to say they withdrew their demand – sunbelt, please note!). -
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Tilly – I think the only way to get results is to do what we did, actually go into the OMIC office, sit with a person and tell them your story. At least that way, your story doesn’t get lost in some in-tray/filing cabinet.
However, our lady Mercedes Bueno did not speak English, so probably even where your OMIC office is, you need someone Spanish-speaking with you. But worth it!
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