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How depressing reading much of this forum makes! Scrolled around for a while and I can’t recognize the Spain that I know. We spent again two weeks in September in our place in Marbella and enjoyed ourselves thoroughly – as we have for over ten years now. Splendid weather, no crowds, superb restaurants, great shopping, long walks on the paseo maritimo – Marbella as beautiful and welcoming as ever. The paseo is undergoing renovations as part of local employment creation efforts so expect it to be even more stunning next year! We have lived in many countries, currently in South Africa, and Spain just can’t be beaten. I guess there are many Spains, ours is fortunately drop dead gorgeous. A million unsold properties somewhere in the boondocks? Maybe. Less tourists from the UK? Can’t complain about that. Spain’s economy in trouble? No doubt. Value of our property down? Probably. But as long as the sun shines, tapas bars are open and the Mediterranean glistens from our terrace I wouldn’t sell our piece of paradise at any price. It has been the best investment we have ever made – investment in happiness and quality of life. Yes, we should join a Spain appreciation society if one existed in the midst of all this doom and gloom…And no I am not a real estate agent! And the point of this post? Just to raise a glass to Spain and say Salud!
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@vida wrote:
How depressing reading much of this forum makes! Scrolled around for a while and I can’t recognize the Spain that I know. We spent again two weeks in September in our place in Marbella and enjoyed ourselves thoroughly – as we have for over ten years now. Splendid weather, no crowds, superb restaurants, great shopping, long walks on the paseo maritimo – Marbella as beautiful and welcoming as ever. The paseo is undergoing renovations as part of local employment creation efforts so expect it to be even more stunning next year! We have lived in many countries, currently in South Africa, and Spain just can’t be beaten. I guess there are many Spains, ours is fortunately drop dead gorgeous. A million unsold properties somewhere in the boondocks? Maybe. Less tourists from the UK? Can’t complain about that. Spain’s economy in trouble? No doubt. Value of our property down? Probably. But as long as the sun shines, tapas bars are open and the Mediterranean glistens from our terrace I wouldn’t sell our piece of paradise at any price. It has been the best investment we have ever made – investment in happiness and quality of life. Yes, we should join a Spain appreciation society if one existed in the midst of all this doom and gloom…And no I am not a real estate agent! And the point of this post? Just to raise a glass to Spain and say Salud!
Cloud nine. Blue sky.
“I wouldn’t sell our piece of paradise at any price.” Nobody would believe you with this kind of statement.
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Spain is a beautiful country inland especially, it’s just the coastal strip they’ve mainly destroyed. If they could clean and clear the overdevelopment away and get rid of their corrupt property developers and agents it would be much better.
If the Coast was really as good as you say, why are so many Brits desperate to leave?
Mind you, the food, the weather and most of the people are indeed very nice.
Not knocking Spain, just the corruptness, but then the UK seems to going that way too! 😉
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well good luck to vida. Sounds like he/she has found what many of us set out for?. Having said that, you could write a similar glowing report about a place in the UK, if you are prepared to either ignore or accept the things that we don’t like?
…….reading it again, It does sound rather like a passage from a glossy sales brochure though!!
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@happylarry wrote:
Great Post Vida,
You will never get some of the posters to agree with you, most of the ones that disagree spend most of their time driving up and down Spain looking for what you have found already….and in truth will probably never find it….There is no doubt that many places along the Spanish Coast or inland are extremely beautiful and extremely attractive and unique. This is why many people return to Spain for holiday year after year.
But myself I feel much better to see them at the moment by renting cheap properties from the huuuuuge offer that is available. That way I do not care about anti-foreigner laws, Juntas, community fees, etc.
There will be a time in the (near of far) future when buying will become better than renting but we have a very long way to that moment.
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Vida,
Nothing wrong with your positive post at all. Indeed many of those of us on here, myself included, who are generally downbeat about the Spanish property market would agree with you. Most of the people who post on here do actually like Spain. In my case I´m actively searching for a place to buy. I wouldn´t be doing so if I didn´t love the country.
Where you do perhaps misunderstand the tenor of many of the posts is the this is a PROPERTY forum. No matter how wonderful your personal experience may be it is a fact the property market is in the doldrums and looks set to be so for quite some time to come. Also, there are significant issues with illegal builds, town hall corruption, overbuilding, destruction of the environment, etc. All of which are property related and all of which deserve an airing.
Now if you or others object to such issues being brought to light fair enough. There are a number of things you can do. You can counter with positive posts, as you have done. You can get abusive with those who post on here, as some have done. You can fire off hate mail to Mark, as I know some have done or you can ignore here and go to one of the many sites that will, through rose tinted glasses, tell you how wonderful everything in Spain is. In the end it is your choice.
Personally I thank heaven for sites such as this. It is independent. It allows all points of view to be aired. It is a valuable source of information through which I have learned a lot in the past year or so I have been following the market.
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Vida, you are so right – of course you are talking about marbella, not the boondooks – and who cares about the boondooks and the 1,000,000 unsold properties; I ‘ve just been down to the port today and it was bursting full with people eating lunch, having a drink and taking their boats out for a cruise – the temperature today is 24’c………… the crisis is taking its toll on the weak business’s but the strong will remain and come out offering even better service and products to their customers. Another bit of news is the good agents (there are a few ) are selling up a minor storm (at prices 30 – 50% less) …….. as for the Brits desperate to leave – well they have to leave because they’ve been sacked, gone bankrupt with their lousy business or just lived the “dream” thinking the music would never stop ………
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@vida wrote:
How depressing reading much of this forum makes! Scrolled around for a while and I can’t recognize the Spain that I know. We spent again two weeks in September in our place in Marbella and enjoyed ourselves thoroughly – as we have for over ten years now. Splendid weather, no crowds, superb restaurants, great shopping, long walks on the paseo maritimo – Marbella as beautiful and welcoming as ever. The paseo is undergoing renovations as part of local employment creation efforts so expect it to be even more stunning next year! We have lived in many countries, currently in South Africa, and Spain just can’t be beaten. I guess there are many Spains, ours is fortunately drop dead gorgeous. A million unsold properties somewhere in the boondocks? Maybe. Less tourists from the UK? Can’t complain about that. Spain’s economy in trouble? No doubt. Value of our property down? Probably. But as long as the sun shines, tapas bars are open and the Mediterranean glistens from our terrace I wouldn’t sell our piece of paradise at any price. It has been the best investment we have ever made – investment in happiness and quality of life. Yes, we should join a Spain appreciation society if one existed in the midst of all this doom and gloom…And no I am not a real estate agent! And the point of this post? Just to raise a glass to Spain and say Salud!
How refreshing to here someone is happy with his or her lot. Well said m8. To much doom and gloom.But i do understand all the crooks of the matters.Keep smiling.
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Being ‘happy with their lot’ has nothing to do with business, investment and the point of this forum. ie: informing buyers and investors of the true situation of the Spanish property market.
It is difficult to get much of a picture on here or most other places but it’s better than nothing. Some posters have some knowledge the rest are tourists enjoying writing words. The originator of this thread has a valid point but it does not help in anyway to illustrate the current picture.
I have just had an hours phone conversation with a Spanish banker. If I said desperation was in his voice I would be understating it. Banks have property to off load and soon they will fall off a cliff. Its a simple question now of who will blink first. Investors such as I or the banks.
They are now offering thousands of repos to let at very low levels. So beware, soon all those empty properties will be occupied with less than desirable neighbours with all that entails.
It’s realities such as this that I prefer not somebody’s happy holiday reminisces. Heart warming as they may be. -
Ah, but methinks Logan lives in “Investment Spain” rather than real Spain.
I am sure there is plenty more pain to come but the fact is that not all of Spain (and places just a short way from the Costas) can be relatively untroubled by the depression affecting the coastal strip.
Lots of people look at property as an investment vehicle – that’s fine if that’s the game you are in – you win and you lose.
For those that simply want to live in Spain (be that in a shed, a rental or a permanent home of huge value) then there are still plenty of positives for living here.
I see lots of people struggling (including myself) with the general ills of the financial climate acros the globe but overall would I rather be here or there? There’s only one answer for me and it’s great to have a thread that doesn’t just dwell on the negative.
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Aunty Val
those who post negative (realistic!) posts usually do so because they are victims of lies and/or deception. How else would you expect them to post?
Good luck to you and all others for whom things have turned out ok with the exception of the financial climate throughout the world, but please try to understand the pain of those who have been so wronged, and try to be patient until regulation and and laws/justice changes mean some of us get a fair break, that’s all we ask.
Tree
J.A. sounds familiar somehow?, what’s that stand for then?
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Goodstitch – I totally agree that people can and should voice their opinions and experiences on here but that should be good and bad.
All I want to see is a bit of balance and when someone actually creates a more positive thread that they don’t get pillaried for not thinking of those that have been wronged.
This thread is a rarity on this site and whilst I appreciate the vast majority (on here at least) have had a negative experience of buying a property in Spain there are those of us who feel it has been a positive move.
I fully understand the pain and deception that has taken place as I spend most of my working life sorting out people’s paperwork – property related – so I see at first hand the problems that people experience.
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I am sure that there are many who are very happy & content with their purchase. It is for them to post positive experiences.
Whilst, I am pleased for them & fortunately I am one of them. The people who have been wronged have been deeply upset on emotional, financial & have had their health affected. It is understandable that they will need a release valve, seek information guidance and warn others.
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I think Spains property scandals should be a cause for concern for everyone owning property. Almost everyone knows about it now and a few posters trying to talk up the market won’t change perceptions. Your house maybe legal and a great location but it has still lost 20% to 50% of it’s valuation 2 years ago along with the illegal ones. Not much to be smug about really is there 🙁
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@katy wrote:
Your house maybe legal and a great location but it has still lost 20% to 50% of it’s valuation 2 years ago along with the illegal ones. Not much to be smug about really is there 🙁
A loss of 20% to 50% of the valuation 2 years ago is a just a step towards realistic prices.
Double the 1996 price is a realistic price.,
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Despite my negativity about Spanish property and it’s rogues along with forecasts, I do know someone who has just bought even though I warned them about problems.
This person has gone ahead having secured what might seem like a cracking discount of 20%, not enough I think. They’ve converted Sterling at a 25-30% drop on the Euro, and then there’s the high completion costs to add. However I expect this person to live in Spain long term now, and is a fluent Spanish speaker which helps.
I don’t think the build quality is very good either, there’s lots for sale there too, but it’s their choice. 😉
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@vida wrote:
It has been the best investment we have ever made – investment in happiness and quality of life.
And, of course, Vida was referring to his/her Spanish property purchase on this, a Spanish property forum.
A thread for ‘Happy clappers’ maybe, but I read it as a reminder to those thinking of investing for ‘happiness and quality of life’ rather than a healthy financial return, that life can be good in Spain whatever the economic situation.
No doubting either that now is a good time to buy for people of that particular mindset.
Hasten to add, I am NOT an Estate Agent.
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Have to agree that if its purely for quality of life rather than investment then now is a good time to buy.
Always providing that you have taken the soound adevice on this and other forums and that you have done extensive research in the areas of your choice.
Much sympathy with those who have had life changing problems, I am retired and lost around 100K, this is money that can never be replaced.
However we both love Spain and are looking forward to purchasing a property in the near future, the properties we are looking at are now reduced by at least 100K so purely for a quality of life now looks like a good time to buy.Definately not an agent merely someone still in love with Spain and everything Spanish with the exception of the past corrupt practices in the construction and legal fields.
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I don’t think it is a good time to buy. Prices aren’t much lower in marbella and the Costa area. Do see developers offering massive reductions but they were massively overpriced anyway. Add a 30% drop in the value of sterling and further price falls…better to rent and wait if you want the lifestyle now. There was a report in the news yesterday, rental prices have fallen at least 20%. I know someone who is renting in Santa maria Greenhills, the owner was asking 900euro long term and they got it for 650 euro.
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I agree very much with Katy. Spain is awash with rentals especially from the banks who cannot sell repossessions.
Try living in Spain first because whatever you buy now you will not be able to resell for 5 years at least. Your life may change or you may find Spain is not for you. There are many social and economic problems on the horizon.
Properties may seem cheap but in reality they are not for many reasons.
They are being sold for the amount of mortgage lent when valuations were some 40% higher. That’s the figure they are sticking at in today’s market. It is an unrealistic situation and in my opinion unsustainable. Private buyers who cannot sell for the debt are handing the property back to the banks. Ultimately the banks will need to cut losses and chop prices to shift the stock. Remember they also have to sustain their borrowings on the wholesale markets.
You would be very unwise to make any sort of purchase until this volatile situation settles down. How long that will be is anyone’s guess but 5 years is not out of the way. -
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@katy wrote:
I don’t think it is a good time to buy. Prices aren’t much lower in marbella and the Costa area. Do see developers offering massive reductions but they were massively overpriced anyway. Add a 30% drop in the value of sterling and further price falls…better to rent and wait if you want the lifestyle now. There was a report in the news yesterday, rental prices have fallen at least 20%. I know someone who is renting in Santa maria Greenhills, the owner was asking 900euro long term and they got it for 650 euro.
problem with locations like greenhills, is that although i’m sure hte properties are lovely, many are now looking to be walking distance to everything. They want decent public transport, etc…
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maximus is exactly right by saying ‘anyone can buy in Spain, the problem comes when selling (or trying to)’ which can trap people for years where they don’t want to be.
No-one can overlook the fact that everywhere on the C.del Sol and Blanca, there are 1000’s of ‘for sale’ and ‘for rent’ signs both private and agencies.
People should try renting 1st as we did to sort out the gremlins of which there’s many. We rented for 8 months and we were so glad we didn’t buy, there were: noise issues, poor build and plumbing, barking dogs, break-ins and lots more, and that on fairly new development which also lies unfinished. 😉
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Really anyone can sell as well. It just whether they are able and/or willing to price their property accordingly.
I know of many people having accepted an offer on their property within weeks of putting it on the market. Why? competitvely priced.
Conversely I know of many properties that are still on the market after 3 years, with the owners having dropped the price by 20% (for example). If it was overpriced 3 years ago and 20% drop now is not going to do much. -
Fuengi, exactly, I sold my property this year in around 4 weeks. Priced it to sell in January, offer accepted in February, completed on 12 March. The buyer lives in Spain, I live in the UK. It would have been sold quicker if I lived in the resort.
I regularly look at fotocasa to keep an eye on prices and even though my apartment was one of the best on the complex in terms of position, you can see similar (but worst positioned) apartments today still on offer 60% higher than my sale price. These sellers have no chance!
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I agree with you both about overpricing whether in Spain or the UK.
There are still plenty of unsold properties in the UK which have been on the market for well over a year, they were overpriced then and despite some reductions, are still overpriced, and now they are ‘stale’.
The same applies to Spain, what properties that aren’t selling generally are the overpriced or those with too much competition or in grotty developments.
All property, unless it’s unique, need to be priced to sell. 😉
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@angie wrote:
The same applies to Spain, what properties that aren’t selling generally are the overpriced or those with too much competition or in grotty developments.
All property, unless it’s unique, need to be priced to sell. 😉
Wot properties aren’t selling…………none of them bargain or not! 😉
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@katy wrote:
Wot properties aren’t selling…………none of them bargain or not! 😉
Come on katy, you know that is not true, not that long ago you mentioned a friend who have sold. Fair enough the amount of sales is lower now than in the recent past, but people should take a longer view. The boom years were the abberation, not the rule. It we look over the last decade, sales at the moment are not that far of the norm.
Although this still does not help those that need to sell due to the amount of competition.
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Whilst not advocating that everyone should rush out and buy spanish property, there are amongst us some who have been seeking a property in spain.
Despite setbacks we are continuing to find a property to live in in an area we have visited for years and know extremely well.
The prices are much lower in our chosen area (inland) and although may not meet katys benchmark for a bargain are acceptable to us.
We are not getting any younger and wish to spend a number of years in a property of our choice.
We do not wish to rent, we do not wish to look on a property as an investment only as a home in which to spend the remaining active years.
So in our eyes if we decide on a nice property in a very select area, get it at an acceptable price, and have some good years amongst friends in a climate that suits us. Then I consider this to be a bargain in any terms.
I learnt many years ago that its not great fun being the richest man in the graveyard.
If its right for you as it is for us then have a wonderfull retirement. -
Well personally speaking I would not exchange Shropshire for Spain, Vilprano especially in older age. However that’s your choice. Remember there are no support services. In Spain it’s a family burden. The health service is quite basic and to get a higher standard you will have to go private at substantial cost. Don’t put all your eggs in one basket, keep a place in UK if you can.
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logan, you are doing the Spanish health service a great injustice with calling it “basic”.
From personal experience and hearing about the complicated heart operations of others the hospitals here are far superior to UK.
In urgencies one will have the attention of at least 2 doctors which certainly puts my old local hospital of East Surrey to shame where one had many nurses doing diddlysquat but only one overworked doctor.
Agree basic nursing care ,either in hospital or out, is reliant on the family, but think the patients recover much quicker knowing they have someone who cares with them at all times.
Hospitals are clean,no super bug problems here, and food is excellent as well and IF a patient isn’t eating the caterers report to the doctors who will try and sort the problem.
The complete opposite to UK where one can not only starve but contracting other diseases is rife. -
I live in France, (15 years) have lived in Spain (10 years), UK more years than I care to recall, so can compare heath services from experience and compared with France, Spain is basic. I have been in hospitals in all 3 countries suffered at the hands of doctors in Spain and UK and had nothing but first class treatment in France. I would not want to be ill in Spain unless I had private cover.
Sorry if I have hi-jacked this thread. I suppose everyone will pile in now telling me how wrong I am and how wonderful an experience they have had. 🙁 -
“There is no superbugs in pain” ❗ Does none of you actually read the spanish papers? Has been mentioned a few times, think the last one I read was 18 deaths in a madrid hospital from superbugs.
Every week there are some sort of complaints. Last week a man attended urgencies in Málaga, sent by his GP with suspected pneumonia. Had to make his own way to the hospital where he had to wait almost 3 hours before he was attended to. He then had another 3 hour wait for blood test results where the diagnosis was confirmed. In that 6 hours he was not offered even a drink of water. This story was sent by his wife.
A 3 hour wait is about average at the CDS hospital. Waiting lists are long. A friend (Spanish) had an operation a could not sit up. She could not eat until her Husband arrived from work to help her with her meals as there was no assistance.
I have found hospitals in Holland to be the best.
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katy, excuse my ignorance, I didn’t understand your reply to my post!
I don’t think many properties are selling in Spain at present, whereas in the UK, more are selling because of shortages.
Mine was a general comment that property that doesn’t sell after so long is often overpriced or grotty or has problems, whether UK or Spain.
Interesting article in the Sunday Telegraph today, by Roger Bootle economist, ‘where now for the price of property?’ A good read basically saying property will fall further in most countries including UK and USA from peak to trough 35-40pc, but by more in Ireland and Spain because they are looking more vulnerable. (can’t find the link yet)
It enforces the view that those who’ve bought this year will find they’ve overpaid by quite a lot if he’s right whichever country they’re in. 😉
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@angie wrote:
It enforces the view that those who’ve bought this year will find they’ve overpaid by quite a lot if he’s right whichever country they’re in. 😉
Especially if they pay for it in Sterling (30% loss) plus 13% taxes which is effectively a loss and the likelihood of further 30% decline in values.
I think that is enough to send anyone with a brain heading for the exit. -
Logan
As with everything in life everyones aspirations and ideas of a good life are different.
As does everyones financial situation, some of us have a basic state pension and some of us were lucky enough to have good jobs and occupational and private pensions along with sufficient funds saved to see us through our later years.
Having worked hard from humble working class stock we have a good standard of living.
We will retain a property in UK for the hottest months where we can enjoy the rural retreat in Shropshire.
In a nutshell vive la difference. -
……just a quick plug for UK hospitals. My 76 year old mother recently had a triple heart by-pass at Papworth Everard Hospital. Fantastic from start to finish, and her recovery was so fast, she was out in 5 days and continues to make a great recovery. I’ve heard of good and bad in both countries though, depends a bit on your luck I think?
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Totally agree with you Logan on the exchange rate plus costs for Brits purchasing in Eurozone.
If it’s for a long term lifestyle change then maybe that’s different although I’d still wait for prices to fall further which is predicted.
However, if anyone is unsure about the future in Spain or elsewhere I’d either rent as we did, I still wouldn’t buy with such a poor exchange rate etc. If anyone buys then should they want to resell, the exchange rate may have reverted back so they would lose again, a huge double whammy.
Only trying to make people aware of what could happen. 🙄
Vilprano, good sense to keep a base in the UK if you do move to Spain, many others haven’t! 😉
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@angie wrote:
If anyone buys then should they want to resell, the exchange rate may have reverted back so they would lose again, a huge double whammy.:
Yes that was my point. The exchange rate is only poor at the moment because of the current economic woes of the UK. That situation will change with time.
Spain’s woes are actually worse and being in the Eurozone in my view makes them worse. Had Spain stayed with the floating Peseta that currency would be very weak against Sterling and other currencies and we could all benefit. It would make Spanish goods abroad so much cheaper and the Spanish economy would benefit accordingly, especially the property market.
As I have said before EU monitory union was a political decision not an economic one. -
We bought in 2007 for 131 euro’s and the neighbouring apartment -which has remained empty from completion date- is now on the market for 104 euro’s. Several others in similar positions are between 104-108 euro’s. So, disappointing although we dont plan to sell, but the exchange rate was much higher than it is today, when we made the purchase.
For cash purchasers there are plenty of bargains as these quoted prices are as advertised and no doubt negotiable for cash. Everywhere- especially on the coast, there’s such a glut of properties its hard to see developers ever being able to start building again. Yet rumours persist of an upturn although I cannot really see that happening yet- more likely levelling out and off loading of properties to clear debts.
The present situation doesnt even benefit the Spanish as the economic downturn has left so many unemployed that even these reduced prices are beyond them- and they dont really want the sort of community charges Brits commonly pay. A recent Sunday article talked about 2011 before the UK and Spain would see any improvement.
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