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UKIP almost won the Eastleigh bye election with 27.8% of the vote. Anti European sentiment grows ever larger in Britain. Van Rompuy describes Britain as a “grumbling island”. Very helpful.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/28/eu-leader-attacks-uk-membership-plans
I am starting to realise that the British have now less of a future living in Europe and perhaps most expats feel the same. If Britain does withdraw from the EU after the 2016 referendum the consequences of trying to continue in a Europe where Britain has no influence looks grim indeed. The British will then have the same status as any other alien.
I am starting a process which for me a couple of years ago was unthinkable. Reluctantly returning to live in Britain. 🙁
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By the time any UK referendum comes round the EU won’t exist as we know it anyway. The eurozone will probably be some kind of federation and the UK’s relationship with that federation will be quite different to what it is now with the EU.
What’s also interesting is the supposed talks for a free trade deal between the USA and the EU. If that agreement happens before the referendum then leaving the EU (or whatever it has become) might also imply leaving a free trade agreement with the USA as well.
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There are world trade agreements, there is life outside Europe. Small companies who have looked to the rest of the world have been doing well. Exports to Europe from the UK are grossly exaggerated. They need us more than we need them.
It is clear that without UKIP then the Tories would have won the seat. Unless they replace Cameron and change course with a referendum now, they will be third at the next general election.
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I have little doubt the UK will manage quite well outside the EU after a period of readjustment. However the relevant issue for the forum is how it will affect Spanish house prices and values. Holiday homes will still remain but with over half a million retired British living in Spain it will impact them greatly.
Here is a list of but six off the top of my head. There will be many more.1. Alien registration and the removal of a right to live and work
2. Removal of all healthcare rights.
3. Removal of the double taxation agreement.
4. Removal of the European charging order agreement. Communities will be unable to recover debt from British property owners.
5. Removal of reciprocal EU banking arrangements.
6. A likely further weakening of Sterling due to a lack of EU investment. -
many thousands of ex-pats lived in Spain before Spain joined the euro. We did!
There are no adequate health care rights now. If you don’t pay into the system then you need private health insurance. Pensioners may not get the free health care that the UK Government pays to Spain for them. Don’t forget that Spain recently moved the goalposts by requiring that anyone moving there has adequate income and private medical insurance which is basically the same as before they joined the eu.
Removal of the European charging order agreement. Communities will be unable to recover debt from British property owners
There is no evidence of any cases of this happening
Removal of reciprocal EU banking arrangements What are they? My USA bank account operates the same as my Spanish one did.
Sterling could crash for a while but who knows. The predicted weakening after the AAA downgrade didn’t happen. It could be that it will go up when/if the UK stops pumping £500 million into the failed EU project!
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Mostly people lived in Spain illegally before the EU. You may have been an exception but consider the hassle for those who would need to re-register as an alien.
Free healthcare for the retired will be ended. It’s impossible to get private healthcare after 65 in Spain or for pre-existing conditions.
The EU charging order is the principal tool used currently by communities to recover their debts. It’s a thriving business for UK debt collectors and has recovered thousands of Euros.
Government and state pensions are transferred to EU countries in Euros without charge.
The contribution costs to the EU are small beer compared to the likely loss of world wide UK investment because of UK membership.
Actually Katy you may know I detest all things EU and Euro as they are currently constructed. However leaving it is not the answer. Changing it is and how can the UK influence that outside it?
UKIP have no useful answer to that.
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My main worry is that as it stands I can retire in Spain and not only claim a Spanish state pension with my contributions to Spanish social security, but I believe my UK national insurance payments will also be taken into account when calculating my Spanish state pension (they get transferred over). If the UK left the EU then I fear my previous contributions to the UK state pension system will count for nothing.
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I suppose it had to happen. When real austerity strikes, the masses vote for nationalism. Germany voted for Hitler, Italy voted for Mussolini, and it now appears the British masses may vote for Farage.
On a personal basis, if I was thrown out of Spain, I couldn’t return to the UK because I wouldn’t want to live under fascism.
But I know where to go, a choice I almost made 25 years ago. There’s even a song about it.
‘Open up them golden gates,
California here I come.’ -
In truth UKIP are simply a bunch of disaffected Tories who dislike David Cameron and the direction of the party. They are a protest group who could never actually govern.
The danger is they appeal to the basic instincts of that class of voter who still believes the British empire rules the world. Worse still their rhetoric also appeals to the ‘Alf Garnett’ blue collar working class with all their prejudices.
I don’t doubt they have a large following in Britain and have the potential to lead the country into disaster. That’s a symptom of the failure of successive British governments to deal with the excesses of the federalists Europeans.
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Logan –
UKIP Britains second political party?
Of course not, I suspect you know that very well yourself. It is a mid-term protest vote. Come the general election people will revert, as they always do, to the mainstream parties. Single issue groupings, such as UKIP, tend to get marginised. That said, last nights result does not bode well for the Conservatives prospects next time.
Itsme –
Could Britain not link up with Ireland and the rest of the commonwealth again?
At the risk of sounding insulting, such thoughts are simplistic and naive. The commonwealth, as a trading entity, was in its death throes when the UK joined the Common Market. The few member countries, such as New Zealand, who still believed in it at the time felt betrayed. They have since found their way elsewhere and would never revert to the old status quo.
Ireland always has been and still is generally pro-European. If the UK leaves the EU it will do so alone. If fact Ireland has already done very well, thank you, from the UK’s long track record of Euro scepticism. Many multinationals, looking for a European base in an English speaking country, have chosen Ireland in part because it is fully committed to staying in the club.
http://www.dutchnews.nl/columns/2013/01/vermeend_van_der_ploeg_why_the.php
This article was published in the NL a few weeks ago, afer Cameron made his ‘referendum’ speach. Bear in mind that it is written by two former cabinet ministers of a country which is generally regarded in the UK as being more aligned to its own views. Some of the opinions expressed make interesting reading.
Many member states think of the UK as a bit of a pain in the European backside. It is always trying not to do as others do, often with success.
I am not saying that I agree with everything argued here, far from it. That said, when it comes to the prospect of leaving the EU, a bit like when people considered the break up of the Euro, I suspect people will look over the precipice, not like what they see and pull back.
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Some people have left UKIP because the leader of UKIP Nigel Farage is suspected to be sexist and homophobic, allegedly. UKIP has benefited from the people who traditionally used to vote conservative who became concerned over David Cameron’s insistence on promoting gay marriage even though nobody else in the conservative party wanted gay marriage apart from those who were openly gay in the conservative party.
Did you know that when the openly gay actor Ian McKellen stays at a room in a hotel that has the Gideon bible in it he tears out the pages of the bible that says that a man should not sleep with another man.
In the book of Leviticus (Chapter: 18 Verse: 22), the third book of the Hebrew bible (old testament) – it says “‘Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; it is an abomination.”
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@Rocker wrote:
I suppose it had to happen. When real austerity strikes, the masses vote for nationalism. Germany voted for Hitler, Italy voted for Mussolini, and it now appears the British masses may vote for Farage.
On a personal basis, if I was thrown out of Spain, I couldn’t return to the UK because I wouldn’t want to live under fascism.
But I know where to go, a choice I almost made 25 years ago. There’s even a song about it.
‘Open up them golden gates,
California here I come.’What has UKIP said or done to make you think they are a fascist party? Seriously, I don’t pay much attention to them but as far as I can tell they just want the UK to behave in the same way the US does: political independence and tight immigration controls.
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I’m not sure how Jake can survive living on pineapples and spam in his mums basement in Walthamstow for much longer. It’s definitely screwed up his brain and alienated him from the society in which he lives. Hello Jake it’s the 21st century and being Gay is normal. The bible is every much the irrelevant ramblings of old men with beards that it always was. 🙄
Now Brian I agree UKIP is not the UK’s second party nor is it the fourth or fifth. I wanted to stimulate debate but as always Jake butt’s in and diverts attention back to himself. 🙁
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@jakesuper wrote:
In the book of Leviticus (Chapter: 18 Verse: 22), the third book of the Hebrew bible (old testament) – it says “‘Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; it is an abomination.”
yet human sacrifice, incest, animal sacrifice, 4 legged insects are all good!
Good to know what God finds acceptable and not -
@logan wrote:
I’m not sure how Jake can survive living on pineapples and spam in his mums basement in Walthamstow for much longer. It’s definitely screwed up his brain and alienated him from the society in which he lives. Hello Jake it’s the 21st century and being Gay is normal. The bible is every much the irrelevant ramblings of old men with beards that it always was. 🙄
Now Brian I agree UKIP is not the UK’s second party nor is it the fourth or fifth. I wanted to stimulate debate but as always Jake butt’s in and diverts attention back to himself. 🙁
thought this was interesting:
Marta Andreasen, mentioned on this forum a few times, is a tory now?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-mep-marta-andreasen-defects-to-the-tories-and-launches-attack-on-nigel-farage-8507960.html -
@Chopera wrote:
@Rocker wrote:
I suppose it had to happen. When real austerity strikes, the masses vote for nationalism. Germany voted for Hitler, Italy voted for Mussolini, and it now appears the British masses may vote for Farage.
On a personal basis, if I was thrown out of Spain, I couldn’t return to the UK because I wouldn’t want to live under fascism.
But I know where to go, a choice I almost made 25 years ago. There’s even a song about it.
‘Open up them golden gates,
California here I come.’What has UKIP said or done to make you think they are a fascist party? Seriously, I don’t pay much attention to them but as far as I can tell they just want the UK to behave in the same way the US does: political independence and tight immigration controls.
The US doesn’t have tight immigration controls, half the country speaks Spanish and arrived there illegally.
You can’t compare UKIP with either the Republicans or the Democrats, but you can compare them to European fascists with their real aim to throw out foreigners. I think we’re both foreigners living in Spain and should worry about UKIP.
That’s why I keep my powder dry. The US is a real alternative for someone who believes in the concept of freedom and despises racism. Me.
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The USA isn’t an alternative for Brits…you cannot get in, unless you have a million dollars to invest in risky projects.
UKIP did well, bring it on 😀 Gay marriage was never an issue at Eastleigh. The public voted for UKIP because they want out of the Europe disaster and the fact that they do not want 200,000 Romanians moving to the UK and claiming every benefit they can…not racist or facist, just common sense.
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Comparing UKIP to facists and nazis is probably the lowest I have heard in a long time. I like them for not wanting to be a part of the welfare project in brussels. The coal and steel union was a good thing that promoted free trade. I think its quite interesting that blue collar workers always gets blamed when they complain about reckless immigration when they are the ones feeling the burden of it while higher earners can segragate themselves away from the problems by moving or putting up barriers so migrants cant take their jobs via licenses and other things. Im for free immigration butnot in a welfare state.
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@katy wrote:
The USA isn’t an alternative for Brits…you cannot get in, unless you have a million dollars to invest in risky projects.
UKIP did well, bring it on 😀 Gay marriage was never an issue at Eastleigh. The public voted for UKIP because they want out of the Europe disaster and the fact that they do not want 200,000 Romanians moving to the UK and claiming every benefit they can…not racist or facist, just common sense.
It’s a fallacy to think you can’t legally get into the US. It will cost you money, but what doesn’t nowadays?
If you sell your semi in Gravesend, the proceeds will allow you to legally enter the US. You need to buy a small business, perhaps a gun shop in San Diego, a brothel in Nevada or a street of houses in Detroit, all of which will leave you with change from selling your semi in Kent.
I’ve also thought of another place to move to if UKIP get us thrown out of Spain – Cyprus. I’ve visited a few times and liked it, they all speak English and drive on the left.
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@Rocker wrote:
If you sell your semi in Gravesend, the proceeds will allow you to legally enter the US. You need to buy a small business, perhaps a gun shop in San Diego, a brothel in Nevada or a street of houses in Detroit, all of which will leave you with change from selling your semi in Kent.
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We own a home in Florida do you think we haven’t looked at every angle. Owning property is not an entry. Yes you can buy a business, th visa is never permanent. Initially you may be given a3 year visa, 5 years if lucky…that is the pattern for the rest of your life.Those renewals soon come round. Who would want to live like that where residency is only as good as the business and you can never sell it or retire or you are out. If you don’t believe me have a long, long read at Florida forums.
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@katy wrote:
@Rocker wrote:
If you sell your semi in Gravesend, the proceeds will allow you to legally enter the US. You need to buy a small business, perhaps a gun shop in San Diego, a brothel in Nevada or a street of houses in Detroit, all of which will leave you with change from selling your semi in Kent.
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We own a home in Florida do you think we haven’t looked at every angle. Owning property is not an entry. Yes you can buy a business, th visa is never permanent. Initially you may be given a3 year visa, 5 years if lucky…that is the pattern for the rest of your life.Those renewals soon come round. Who would want to live like that where residency is only as good as the business and you can never sell it or retire or you are out. If you don’t believe me have a long, long read at Florida forums.
I believe every word you’ve said, and I’ve been there myself, still am in most respects, but my business has now been online for many years, and has caused me no end of trouble with the IRS, I think that’s what they call it, the tax people.
I feel safer in Spain, like you I’ve lived here for ages, and when I think of ever having to leave I consider what I would miss most.
I could replicate the sun, I could replicate the blue Mediterranean, I could replicate the culture and even the scenery.
After a visit to the dentist two days ago, I arranged to meet my wife in a tiny Spanish cafe after she went shopping. While waiting for her I sipped my strong coffee and watched my fellow coffee sippers, four Spanish ladies discussing their children, a couple of grumpy Spanish elders discussing football, and a pair of illicit lovers holding hands while cheating on their spouses.
I can’t replicate Spanish people should I have to leave, and it worries me.
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My only asset is my Spanish house too, not strictly true because of English incomes. But getting back to basics, I love the place to bits. Tomorrow morning I’m going to walk my little dog down to a Spanish bar, I have a choice of several.
My wife is going to Iceland with her pal, another clown.
I will be sitting in the sun, watching nice people going about their business, but it’s 15 minutes from midnight and something is urging me to tell the truth.
I’m going to a bar tomorrow morning where the Spanish waitress has the nicest bum in the whole world. Isn’t that what life is all about?
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@Rocker wrote:
@Chopera wrote:
@Rocker wrote:
I suppose it had to happen. When real austerity strikes, the masses vote for nationalism. Germany voted for Hitler, Italy voted for Mussolini, and it now appears the British masses may vote for Farage.
On a personal basis, if I was thrown out of Spain, I couldn’t return to the UK because I wouldn’t want to live under fascism.
But I know where to go, a choice I almost made 25 years ago. There’s even a song about it.
‘Open up them golden gates,
California here I come.’What has UKIP said or done to make you think they are a fascist party? Seriously, I don’t pay much attention to them but as far as I can tell they just want the UK to behave in the same way the US does: political independence and tight immigration controls.
The US doesn’t have tight immigration controls, half the country speaks Spanish and arrived there illegally.
You can’t compare UKIP with either the Republicans or the Democrats, but you can compare them to European fascists with their real aim to throw out foreigners. I think we’re both foreigners living in Spain and should worry about UKIP.
That’s why I keep my powder dry. The US is a real alternative for someone who believes in the concept of freedom and despises racism. Me.
Every country has immigration controls and, if someone is found to be an illegal immigrant then they will throw them out. So by your definition just about everywhere is a fascist country! Including the USA – they might have a lot of illegal immigrants but the fact that they are illegal implies the US has laws controlling immigration (even if it can’t apply them that well).
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We looked at every way we could move to the US some years ago and I’ve got half sister and brother there so thought it would be easy, but no. Would have to go on a 10 year list before even consideration so still no guarantee.
Then I found that you could invest minimum of $500,000 but only in a deprived area they chose and they listed only about 5 areas throughout the States, it had to be a run down factory unit or similar and had to employ X amount of nationals. Outskits of Seattle, possibly Detroit and Kansas City, but not where I wanted San Diego. Then a temporary visa and valid whilst the business was still going.
Some Brits have bought businesses in areas like Florida which later have failed and then they’ve been chucked out, not sure what happens if their children were born in the States because they get citizenship, it all becomes a points system then, aliens etc.
It’s not easy for normal, decent, funded middle class people to get in, but, if you are unfunded Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban etc etc many manage it by hopping over the border and melting away 🙄 Probably normal route if the above have a profession or skill needed 🙄
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@logan wrote:
I’m not sure how Jake can survive living on pineapples and spam in his mums basement in Walthamstow for much longer. It’s definitely screwed up his brain and alienated him from the society in which he lives. Hello Jake it’s the 21st century and being Gay is normal. The bible is every much the irrelevant ramblings of old men with beards that it always was. 🙄
Now Brian I agree UKIP is not the UK’s second party nor is it the fourth or fifth. I wanted to stimulate debate but as always Jake butt’s in and diverts attention back to himself. 🙁
Err. I don’t eat spam usually and being gay is not normal because they are in a minority.
Sir Ian McKellen has prostate cancer and has been living with it for seven years without taking any treatment because he believes that it is not spreading. It is a bit like George Michael coming down with pneumonia and not wanting to be tested for HIV. Both Ian Mckellen and George Michael have got their heads in the sand.
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Angie we looked at the USA development schemes. Many of the companies running them are very dubious. There is also a massive $80,000 legal “costs” in addition to the $500,000. The full amount has to be paid without any guarantee of getting a permanent visa. Of course you are supposed to get a return on your investment but AFAIK no-one seems to have got much…if anything. OK. if you don’t mind paying just for citizenship. They are called EB5 visas. Just like estate agents there are a lot of spammers on the Florida forums.
The E2 visa where you can buy a mom and pop business is like you say, only as good as the business. Any children are not allowed to stay once they reach 21. Their only hope is to marry an American 😀
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Interesting behavior of the ignore function. If you are not logged-in, you see everything (of course). But if you log-in after going to a forum, regardless if you read anything or not, you get a message that there is a post from someone on your ignore list – and an offer to read it. Very civilized.
Regarding Jake’s most recent post my only observation is this: 100% of the time, those who are the most homophobic among us turn out to be gay, especially true of politicians and clergy. Jake is “single” and lives with his mother, and he is obsessed with gay men – he seems to more about them that I do. And like every other gay man I know, he too is obsessed with Marilyn Monroe.
Draw your own conclusions.
Regarding coming to the US, it is incredibly difficult. My then partner (now husband) and I tried to get him immigration status with the US and after talking with about a dozen different lawyers, we gave up. It does look like the US is going to make legal same-sex marriages and that mean easier immigration, but we’ll evaluate that option when the time comes.
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There are many different ways into the US, but to post about them here would not be sensible.
Anyway, Eastleigh was a blip, my lot still won despite all their problems, and the UKIP voters merely wanted to remind the boys from Eton not to get too big for their boots.
And it reminded a million expats that their life in Spain will always depend on circumstances beyond their control, politics and business.
Perhaps I’m wrong about politics, all of us still have the vote in the UK and if the UKIP vote got too strong, we would all vote against them, because we hate them, they want to get us thrown out of Spain, the horrible sods.
But our main worry is the exchange rate, most of us could possibly live with parity, but not too much below that level and the pound Sterling has been falling for many years.
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