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Some people have had terrible problems buying property in Spain. There have been some real travesties of justice. The Spanish property boom was a disaster on many fronts.
Overall the holiday home market will be a disaster next year, perhaps even worse in 2011.
But at the same time some people will buy without any problems, they will get good discounts, they will get value for money, and they will be happy with their purchases. They may even make a decent return in the long run. Who knows?
You could argue that it’s the best time to buy in years, though it might be even better next year, or even the year after. It depends what you’re after.
But hey, I guess I’m just talking up the market.
I sometimes get the impression it is considered treachery around here to even suggest that some people might benefit from buying a home in Spain, even if it suits them to do so at this stage in their lives.
This forum is not here just to tell people never buy a property in Spain. It’s here to offer advice to those who want to buy or sell, help people get the best out of owning, and help those who have run into problems along the way.
It does not exist for the sole purpose of trashing Spain.
If you don’t understand that you’re in the wrong forum.
Mark
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Will be interesting to see what 2010 will bring. More doom and gloom I think (and not just from myself 😆 ). However, I will stand corrected by those in the know.
I don’t know how bad royal berkshire but marbella is like a wet weekend in Southend (apologies to Southend!). Tourists are thin on the ground, shops and bars mainly empty. Well, they were two weeks ago, someone could say it has picked up since then 😉
I think things won’t improve on the Costas until at least 2015 and probably will never reach the levels it did in the first 5 years of the 21st century.
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Its a long time since I posted on this forum but I do watch it with interest on a very regular basis. I agree there are many. many possible pitfalls to buying in Spain but I also think there are similar problems buying in most countries where a full understanding of the systems and language is rarely possible.
We bought an off-plan property, had some problems along the way and at one point seriously considered pulling out and losing the stage payments we had made. In the end we did get our apartment though NOT the promised pool and the road in front (main road through the village) has still not been fully completed and I am pretty sure the pavement will never materialise!
Our local mayor was shot and killed 2 years ago within view of our balcony which was a terrible time for all the village and particularly his family here. Now the present mayor has been arrested on suspicion of ordering the murder as the previous mayor opposed certain planning applications. There is endemic corruption here at many levels and some people have had dreadful and ongoing nightmares with property and I have the greatest sympathy. This will take many, many years to change as this is still a young democracy with an awfully long way to go before trust can be established and relied upon.
All that aside, we love our apartment, the area and the people who are our neighbours both spanish and other nationalities. We gave up our secure jobs in UK and now work 6 months over the summer for a UK tour operator, each season in a different part of europe. We spend the winter here and feel very lucky.
We have friends in UK who have been made redundant, cannot find other employment and are desperate to sell their homes but are unable to find buyers in the present UK recession.
Regardless what is said by certain banks and building societies in UK, mortgages are scarce and big deposits needed. Also house prices have dropped in the UK too!Our income is a fraction of when we had careers in UK, the exchange rate has had a big impact on us but we have learned to live on limited income and often take a picnic when we go out for the day rather than eat in a restaurant or play a game of “where is the cheapest place this week to buy coffee and a cake”.
Today we have snow on the hills, its only 6 degrees and our apartment does not retain any heat due to lack of insulation. However, we are unstressed, have lots of winter woollies on and are happy. We have been unable to put a price on that as yet!
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Mark
Our family has spent a lot of time in many parts of Spain over the years and we love the country. Our children will leave home in a few years and due to sad circumstances we have some money to put towards an apartment in Spain. Because of our relatively young age and family circumstances we hope to buy in Spain.
Our home in England was bought in 1992, in the depths of the last big recession in England. We have survived!
Buying a property during a recession is not all bad news! Perhaps buying in a recession to make lots of money in the short term is.
I am really really fed up with the huge amount of negativity and ‘abuse’ that some people post. I wont even mention the racist posts.
Thank you for posting a counter to the vast amount of negative abusive posts.
I am done.
Sonsoles
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@Sonsoles wrote:
I am really really fed up with the huge amount of negativity and ‘abuse’ that some people post. I wont even mention the racist posts.
Thank you for posting a counter to the vast amount of negative a
You have been a member of this site for almost 2 years… You could have posted huge amounts of positivity.
On the other hand, I agree 100% with Mark’s posting. People that have money and want to buy in Spain now can do it safely if they do their homework (there is really no excuse to not do the homework now, there is no rush…).
My only point is that it might be better to do it in at least one year from now.
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What some call negative others call realist. There is a certain backlash recently on spanish forums towards any “negative” posts. Not sure why this should be, sad to see this one is going down the same alley.
Has anyone noticed how all these forums are so quiet? Even the holiday ones. Previously Busy forums with people asking lots of questions about Spain re. taking holidays etc. One forum with a section on “Moving to Spain” hasn’t had a post for months, I think that says it all.
I really don’t know anyone in real life who has any positive to say about spain right now and the forums are full of bullshitters who are either in the property business or desperately trying to sell their property.
The weather is much better in Spain though 💡
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@katy wrote:
I really don’t know anyone in real life who has any positive to say about spain right now and the forums are full of bullshitters who are either in the property business or desperately trying to sell their property.
Oh, really…
Come on.
We relocated to Spain a couple of months ago and have had nothing but a positive experience. We purchased the property at what we considered to be an extremely good price (and frankly, we really do not care if it goes down – or up – over the next few years as we have no intention of selling it in that time frame). I would be fairly confident that in the medium-long term it will prove to be a fairly decent investment. A rough equivalent property in the the UK would probably have cost around a million…. given we got it for a fraction of that, we have the space and the lifestyle we were looking for at what we regard as a bargain-basement price. We still retain other property investments in the UK and would certainly consider an additional property in Spain – if the price was right.
We have found the cost of living here to be far less than it was in the UK, and the weather… well… no comparison. It is also quite nice to be away from a place where you are under surveillance 24/7 and can find yourself harassed and even arrested for taking photos of tourist attractions! The roads here are not congested, and service in the shops is far better than we have experienced in the UK as of late. The UK is no longer a very pleasant place to live as far as we are concerned, and we are glad to be out of it. Of course Spain has some problems. Everywhere does. We have lived in the UK, the US and even in North Africa so do have something to compare it to. Nowhere is perfect, it is all a question of compromises. If it adds up for you – go for it. If it doesn’t, then don’t bother – or leave.
Andy
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Not everything in this world is to do with money, and some people would rather retire or relocate now rather than wait until the Daily Mail says that it is safe to do so.
Spain is a lot nicer place to live than England. By all means, take the plunge and move now. You will, with what you know now, almost certainly buy a decent house without issues or problems. Go for it.
However, it is also true that we haven’t hit bottom, that there are a lot more mayors, promoters, lawyers (one can dream) and pols who will have their wings clipped before this whole thing is over.
So, to invest – buy gold or tins of baked beans. To improve your standard of living – buy a house in Spain. -
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Mark
I think we all hear what you are saying, and as such the replies themselves are mostly positive. The grim reality for many though is as described in many of the posts, and if the majority are negative then that speaks for itself. What is the alternative?, a site for those only with positive experience?
I feel charlies ‘pitfalls in a nutshell’ thread should be locked at the top above your locked thread. It tells it as it is and gives very good warning that could save much misery. I think we all know the positive side of Spain, that’s why we all wanted to buy or move there, and it’s great to read the positive posts as long as they are not in denial of the problems many face through the now many reported faults in the system.
In the same way, there’s no point in those of us who have had bad experience being in denial of those who are happy with their lot. It looks like sour grapes and comes over as not wanting to see any balance.
I think the site finds it’s own balance. When the boom was in full swing, and the majority had no idea of just how bad the lack of regulation and corruption was, or the problems getting justice, then there were many more positive posts and those posting realistic but negative were told they were ”doom mongers”. The doom mongers have since been proved right as charlie’s ‘pitfalls’ thread describes very clearly. When the Spanish property situation improves, I think the mood will once again be reflected on supurb sites such as this. In the meantime thanks heavens most people are keeping it real!!
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Well I for one LOVE living in Spain.
Just being able to travel freely about without the stress of navigating the horrendous traffic or hunting out a place to park when one finally arrives at one’s destination unlike good old UK. Plus not forgetting the fact that it is a rare day one cannot go out because the weather is better.I have never bought property with the thought of it being and investment but for a way of life and retiring to Spain was the best thing I ever did.
Would recommend it to anyone providing they avoid areas/developements where illegal builds appear to be the norm.Every day is like being on holiday as far as I am concerned and have a fantastic social life, that doesn’t include the constant tipping of alcohol down my throat, with both the wonderful Spanish locals and expat community.
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Melosine wrote:Every day is like being on holiday as far as I am concerned .
95% of people going to Spain feel the same. Why? Because they go there in holiday.
The truth about Spain and the desire to move/buy there:
– if one has enough money to live without any work and any extra income besides pensions or savings, then Spain is a nice place to go (among others of course).
– if one does not have enough money to live without any work and any extra income besides pensions or savings, then stay in UK till more money is gathered. Spain does not welcome foreign jobseekers.
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A forum is a community of sorts with widely differing opinions and experience.
Opinion is only useful when it’s constructive, when someone writes from personal experience about their difficulties, offering detail and facts. That is a forums strength, information from the ground. I personally find that useful.
What I find useless however are posts describing how wonderful living in Spain is despite all the problems.
That is subjective and applies to only the poster not the rest of us. Living anywhere can be equally wonderful, it depends on the individual.
I often wonder just who this forum exists for. What is its reason for being?
I assume it’s to inform potential buyers of the pitfalls and advantages (if any) of investing in the Spanish property market. Not to persuade them that it is a good idea. Not to talk up the pleasures of an ex-pat lifestyle. They decide that for themselves from their own particular motivation.
The Spanish property market is currently on its knees with further to fall. It’s a relatively unregulated market populated by con men and crooks. You would expect a forum such as this to reflect that in great detail. Pointing out the risks and dangers of investing not the delights of sun sand and sea.
Market savvy people understand, keep their powder dry until some life appears on the horizon and deal with people they trust. Sell at the top, buy at the bottom. Knowing just when those two poles start to appear is the key to investor success.
The remainder of potential buyers are at the mercy of the sharks. If a forum such as this helps but one of them to avoid trouble it will be surely worth it.
There is more to life than money, its called poverty. Strange thing is I find life far more agreeable with it than without it. The lifestyle thing automatically follows the money. -
Hi all,
Here, here to Mark. I found when purchasing 5 years ago in spain this forum was invaluable for advice for purchasing in spain more geared towards the everday things like wealth tax and non resident tax, suma, so you know when purchasing what you would be paying to have a house in spain. Nowadays I think the forum has got caught up in “experts” putting their opinions on how low prices are likely to go and slatting various parts of Spain. At the end of the day Spain is a lovely country, easily accessable, property prices are attractive compared to when I bought, no wealth tax any more. I am glad of this forum and any chance I get I recommend the forum, I do. Lets get back to the business of having balanced advice for people who may want to buy a house in spain or are living there!
Happy Christmas to all on the forum and I certainly hope that 2010 is a healthy, happy and above all positive year for all here! 😀
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@logan wrote:
I often wonder just who this forum exists for. What is its reason for being?
.Because Mark is kind to keep it alive…
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The truth is that with current exchange rates stg to euro, most Brits on pensions are finding it hard to make ends meet in Spain, most Brits who are able to buy are losing 30% on the exchange rate but may make it up with discounted property, but will suffer when the rates flip round should they want to resell.
Many Brits just cannot sell and are stuck in their lookalike properties that the agents said ‘you cannot lose’ on.
The Coast is overbuilt, so for beter quality maybe, and value, slightly inland may be a better option, and you can breath cleaner air too.
There are some beautiful parts of Spain but most of the Coast is spoilt for good 🙄
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@angie wrote:
Many Brits just cannot sell and are stuck in their lookalike properties that the agents said ‘you cannot lose’ on.
The Coast is overbuilt, so for beter quality maybe, and value, slightly inland may be a better option, and you can breath cleaner air too.
There are some beautiful parts of Spain but most of the Coast is spoilt for good 🙄
How well do you know “Inland” Anywhere within an hour or so of the Coast (Andalucía) is also spoiled…not to mention the horrendous problems ex-pats are having, not just with illegal property. I could tell you but don’t want to be booted off for being negative 😆
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No need to continue wondering logan for surely a forum is for everyone. Negative and positive posters alike. Some on both sides unfortunately though will have a hidden agenda.
Even most of we “positive” posters on here have had problems which have been highlighted hoping to help others avoid the pitfalls which for some have been unbelievably disgraceful with the illegal builds.
Hopefully this will never happen again.My property like others now is worth much less than it cost to build 4 years ago, but that’s life, and the falling pound has compounded the problem but compared to what a similar property or a decent standard of living would cost me in UK I certainly have the better deal.
IF one gets it right, is made aware of all the pitfalls and buys here for lifestyle NOT investment then life here should be very enjoyable.
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@katy wrote:
How well do you know “Inland” Anywhere within an hour or so of the Coast (Andalucía) is also spoiled..l:
I know it extremely well. I have been taking ecology students there for over 15 years. I now choose to live here. I will be bringing more students out here this Spring. The claim you made above is frankly, absolute rubbish.
Sure, there are some local problems in certain areas. There are issues with water usage (industrial agriculture) and over-development (mostly confined to the coast itself and “golf” developments further inland – now mostly in stasis – one positive effect of the credit crunch). Overall, however, there is a HUGE amount of pristine habitat that is totally untouched. There are many rare species here, many of which are doing quite well. Certainly where we live (Taberno) you can walk for hours across some phenomenal habitat that is unmatched in the whole of the rest of Europe. Indeed, even on the coast there are still some really excellent sites of considerable interest. It is so impressive that I have students from as far away as the US visiting here for their field-work on a regular basis. So impressive that I know at least two other well-known researchers who have relocated here for the same reasons I did.
1. Lifestyle and value
2. Some of the best arid habitat ecology in the world on our doorsteps.Look… you can view all this in various ways. You can view it purely from a bean-counting investment angle. Fine. On that count, it has been very rough lately and will almost certainly take a long time to recover. Yes, there are some serious problems in some areas, no-one is denying that. There are problems all over the place, though. Too bad if you invested in Iceland! Hey – at least here you have the sun! 😀
It is also the case that many people over-extended themselves and took second mortgages to buy “bad” properties. I feel sorry for them, it may have looked good at the time. Buying on rising bubbles with money you do not have is never a good strategy, however. If you bought for cash, and are not interested in selling, then you have not lost anything (except on paper).
It is also hard for UK people on fixed UK incomes. Again, there is always a risk when you ‘play’ the currency markets. You have to accept that risk. I have quite a lot of cash on deposit in the UK right now, and I am gambling, in effect, on what happens over the next year or so. For the moment, it is staying there with the best interest rates I can get. I may win. I may lose. Who knows? I have diversified things quite a bit, but I may still have got it wrong. I would not blame anyone else for that if I have. It was my decision and mine alone. My fault if I get it wrong.
The fact is that all of the environment “an hour from the coast” has not been destroyed or even spoiled (I could take you to 600 hectares of pristine habitat just 5 minutes from the beach), and that some of us do appreciate the fact that money is just numbers – and by itself means very little unless you can use it to generate a lifestyle you find acceptable. I knew one guy who was extremely wealthy by any standards, yet who (in my opinion) lived a truly sorry excuse for a life…. no-one is denying that money is a huge problem when you do not have it… but having it (all) is not necessarily the answer either.
Like I said before… compromises…
Andy
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Good post Melosine 🙂
RE. Hidden agenda…I understand the positives may have them but what would the negatives have to gain by pointing out the bad points. The bottom line is that people will read and make up their own minds. The ones with the coloured specs will never listen anyway.
If anyone posts questions on here about moving to Spain most posters, including myself have been very helpful. Just that not many come on to ask these things. I could write pages full about life in Spain, good and bad but that is not what this forum is about.
I just need to say I would never buy in Spain again and maybe I am stupid saying this as I have a large asset there. I feel that a piddly forum on it’s own cannot talk the property market up or down people will just use it as a point of reference and hopefully do their own research and block out what the agents tell them.
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By negative posts someone… Not those who have been conned who have taken issue via courts… but those wearing rose tinted gafas who bought from a man in a bar scenario and are now prejudiced against Spain.
Like positive posters one only hears one side of their story. Maybe none of the latter have posted on this particular forum but have read their stories on others.Personally believe the J of A by demolishing the Priors house did more than any forum, financial situation or the media could ever do to bring the housing market in Spain to it’s knees and don’t think it will recover until the Priors are reimbursed. But memories are short and once those in UK can remortgage their houses again the market will probably return.
Question is …in whose lifetime??I know I said to me Spain was like a constant holiday but that is because I am retired and once I have done all the normal household chores and attended to my acre of English styled garden I can go out because for most of the year the weather is great and the light evenings longer and warmer.
Have great empathy for retirees in UK who, with the weather of recent years, must spend most of their time indoors now. I know what I prefer. -
@Melosine wrote:
Have great empathy for retirees in UK who, with the weather of recent years, must spend most of their time indoors now. I know what I prefer.
Don’t need to have empathy. The UK retirees can always rent in Spain
for cheap during winter months, with no strings attached…The question is: where is heating more expensive?
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66D whatever, I don’t know your particular pueblo but during my 15 years of living in Spain I have visited various parts of Almería and I have found everywhere nothing but a fly-ridden shitehole. I feel sorry for your “Students” if they are confined to study there. Those areas are cheap for a reason.
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@katy wrote:
66D whatever, I don’t know your particular pueblo but during my 15 years of living in Spain I have visited various parts of Almería and I have found everywhere nothing but a fly-ridden shitehole. I feel sorry for your “Students” if they are confined to study there. Those areas are cheap for a reason.
That is certainly an illuminating comment in terms of a) what you know and understand about this environment and b) your objectivity on similar topics.
It puts things in context.
10 minutes from beach. Massive biodiversity with many unique species of international interest.
Andy
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@66d35 wrote:
@katy wrote:
66D whatever, I don’t know your particular pueblo but during my 15 years of living in Spain I have visited various parts of Almería and I have found everywhere nothing but a fly-ridden shitehole. I feel sorry for your “Students” if they are confined to study there. Those areas are cheap for a reason.
That is certainly an illuminating comment in terms of a) what you know and understand about this environment and b) your objectivity on similar topics.
It puts things in context.
10 minutes from beach. Massive biodiversity with many unique species of international interest.
Andy
Nice picture.
But
1) this shows that the region of Almeria is a desert where the water is sparce and they should have never built so many houses/apartments/golf courses…
2) you forgot to mention that between the beautiful area of Tabernas and the sea the land is covered with plastic hothouses…
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The picture is not of the area where the Spaghetti westerns were filmed. That is the desert of Tabernas – a completely different environment and ecosystem entirely. No comparison. Very different, but equally interesting and unique in that it is the only true desert environment in the whole of Europe.
The image does not depict desertification, either. That is also something completely different. It is a process whereby a desert expands into previously non-desertified areas. That is not the case here. This is actually a particular type of habitat that has existed here for thousands of years and constitutes a very specific ecosystem all of its own.
I guess you either appreciate and like arid habitats – or not. I do, hence my primary interest in the area and one of the major reasons I relocated to the region.
I understand other people may be more interested in golf courses, bars and restaurants – but each to his or her own!
Andy
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Hi 66d35,
love the photo. One of the things I like about southern spain is the dry, rocky nature.
On my occasional day off during this summer, instead of going to the beach like so many I would take the family inland and simply find a spot to stop of with the family, have a picnic and explore. Amazing how you could be in an arid environment and suddenly come upon a small ravine/gulley (not sure on the terminology) and be surrounded by lovely green trees and all manners of life. -
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katy, there’s a lot more to Spain than the overbuilt mess on the CDS and CB. This will never be a nice area again because Spain allowed it’s hills and mountains to be sliced off, and it’s advocado farms destroyed for greedy development.
Inland, if it’s not just about warmth and sun, is extremely beautiful, take a drive from France past the lakes up North, Rioja, inland C. Brava, parts of middle Spain and even places like Alozaina or the lakes behind Malaga even Casares is pleasant.
I would never buy nor recommend anyone buys on the Coast though unless it’s absolutely necessary.
But the air inland is better IMO and I daresay the corruption is less obvious. 🙄
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@angie wrote:
Inland, if it’s not just about warmth and sun, is extremely beautiful, take a drive from France past the lakes up North, Rioja, inland C. Brava, parts of middle Spain and even places like Alozaina or the lakes behind Malaga even Casares is pleasant.
I would never buy nor recommend anyone buys on the Coast though unless it’s absolutely necessary.
If you take away the Coast, Spain loses much of its advantage… The winters are much colder inland, the summers much hotter, the airports sparcer and fares more expensive.
France, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Slovenia have much nicer mountains and more pleasant summers (also more interesting winters).
About the desert. Almeria looks like the ugliest parts of Nevada. To find nice deserts
with creeks surrounded by red rocks one needs to go in Utah or Arizona or some areas within 30 minuted drive from Las Vegas. I love the deserts but not the one in Almeria. -
You’re right flosmichael about beautiful deserts in places like the USA etc which I prefer too, the trouble is they’re much further away, airfares higher etc.
If only the USA was where Spain is, that would be just right for me.
I was pointing out that the Spanish Coast is a spoilt mess generally on the larger Costas compared to some attractive inland areas. 😉
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@angie wrote:
katy, there’s a lot more to Spain than the overbuilt mess on the CDS and CB. This will never be a nice area again because Spain allowed it’s hills and mountains to be sliced off, and it’s advocado farms destroyed for greedy development.
Inland, if it’s not just about warmth and sun, is extremely beautiful, take a drive from France past the lakes up North, Rioja, inland C. Brava, parts of middle Spain and even places like Alozaina or the lakes behind Malaga even Casares is pleasant.
I would never buy nor recommend anyone buys on the Coast though unless it’s absolutely necessary.
But the air inland is better IMO and I daresay the corruption is less obvious. 🙄
Absolutely agree except for the bit about andalucia. Odd bits but most of the best parts have been spoilt. Should be noted that not all Andalucian pueblos are charming, some resemble industrial estates and others are quite grim. Would be better around the lakes if the spanish stopped littering the area and tipping builders rubble allover. Don’t anyone tell me it’s not true…I watch spanish tv and there was a programme about it last week. Most of the corrupt mayors were from Inland too and in Almeria there are thousands of illegal properties….all inland
Actually all countries have their good and bad bits not unique to spain. Much better places to take a holiday
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@angie wrote:
You’re right flosmichael about beautiful deserts in places like the USA etc which I prefer too, the trouble is they’re much further away, airfares higher etc.
If only the USA was where Spain is, that would be just right for me.
I was pointing out that the Spanish Coast is a spoilt mess generally on the larger Costas compared to some attractive inland areas. 😉
I perfectly agree with you. My favourite area in Spain are the Pyrinees in Huesca.
But the main attractions of Spain for say UK buyers/tourists are the Sea, the mild winter climate which can be both gotten by using cheap flights. Take these away and I am not sure if so many people would go to Spain…
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If you only ever visit the USA as a tourist, I’m afraid the rose-tinted specs will be well in evident. If you actually lived there and worked there you would rapidly discover the other side to the coin.
Health care is a huge problem. Start off by allowing around $700 per month – per person in your family – for any kind of reasonable cover. Even that cover will not be enough if you get seriously, seriously ill over a long period. To get that kind of cover, start with around $1,300+ per month per person. Even then – don’t count on it. They can cut you off, completely, just like that. You’ll find a whole team of aggressive lawyers arguing against your claim. Some people end up shooting themselves to save the family from bankruptcy (which is not the kinder, gentler bankruptcy you are used to in the UK, either). You lose everything and end up on the streets, literally. In just one medium sized town last year the local cops (I know one of them well) attended two separate suicides by shooting as a result of health care problems in just one day….
Speaking of guns, that is another major problem area as I’m sure you know. Mix those with drugs (which are everywhere) and you begin to see the reason for the horrific serious crime rates which blight even apparently peaceful looking areas. Shootings are so common in many cities that they hardly merit a mention in the news. Rural areas, especially in the south and west can be just as bad. You may find your (wooden!) house being used for target practice by drunken locals every Friday night. Don’t expect much help from the local cops either, because they are likely related to the people doing the shooting.
This is the kind of stuff that rarely makes the news, but happens all the time. There are lots of other problems too… it is a nice place to visit, and some regions (North East, for example) are relatively safe (for the most part, if you are sensible) but living there is very different. As an ‘Alien’ you will also have to deal with the INS and IRS on a regular basis: both of whom make their Spanish/European counterparts look welcoming and friendly by comparison.
Andy
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This forum in 2010 and beyond?
Will no doubt continuously keep swerving off topic like this thread. 😆SPI will always have three horses pulling in different directions – the investors, the ‘professionally biased’ and the lifestyle-seekers.
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Mark – I must say I am disappointed in your use of words in your opening post.
“This forum is not here just to tell people never buy a property in Spain”.
I joined this forum four years ago (four years ago today coincidentally) and in all that time I do not recall ever seeing a post stating people should “never” buy property in Spain. ‘Delay’ in buying, yes – because of the market/corruption/whatever.“It does not exist for the sole purpose of trashing Spain”.
Again, I don’t see members “trashing” Spain as a whole – just criticising the bits that deserve it re. overbuild/corruption etc.
As is often said here, even those who do make these critcisms have a love for Spain in general, hence their interest in buying there in the first place and their interest in forums such as this.We hang on in here attempting to make constructive criticisms and pointing out pitfalls, despite often having to suffer a barrage of name-calling like stupid idiots, leaving our brains behind etc. for openly admitting the situations we ended up in. It’s not Spain that gets trashed, it’s often us. Luckily for me, when it’s from a member whose opinion I don’t respect, it’s water off a duck’s back.
Personally, I maintain an interest in SPI because despite currently living in my little bolt-hole on a Greek island, I am looking for somewhere to make the last permanent move of my life (and it won’t be the UK). It is between Spain and a completely different alternative – somewhere in the Alps. Two totally different environments and lifestyles.
I have to say that after my disasterous buying experience in the Spain and the continuing feeling of no confidence in any legal recourse and protection for purchasers, I am leaning towards the more sane environment and orderly way things are done in countries like Switzerland and Austria.
Having said that, I hope SPI continues to do what it did/does for me. In the past it armed me with invaluable information when I finally confronted the rogues that sat on my 100,000 euros for three years without building anything, so I was able to counteract the bull-stuff they were trying to feed me. Currently it helps me keep my finger on the pulse re. how things are progressing (or not) over there while still making my decision.
P.S. Melosine – I know exactly where you are coming from re. your post on page 1. of this thread (except swop Spain for Greece) – it is something I never felt when living in coastal Devon despite originally being a Londoner.
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@66d35 wrote:
If you only ever visit the USA as a tourist, I’m afraid the rose-tinted specs will be well in evident. If you actually lived there and worked there you would rapidly discover the other side to the coin.
Health care is a huge problem. Start off by allowing around $700 per month – per person in your family – for any kind of reasonable cover. Even that cover will not be enough if you get seriously, seriously ill over a long period. To get that kind of cover, start with around $1,300+ per month per person. Even then – don’t count on it. They can cut you off, completely, just like that. You’ll find a whole team of aggressive lawyers arguing against your claim. Some people end up shooting themselves to save the family from bankruptcy (which is not the kinder, gentler bankruptcy you are used to in the UK, either). You lose everything and end up on the streets, literally. In just one medium sized town last year the local cops (I know one of them well) attended two separate suicides by shooting as a result of health care problems in just one day….
Speaking of guns, that is another major problem area as I’m sure you know. Mix those with drugs (which are everywhere) and you begin to see the reason for the horrific serious crime rates which blight even apparently peaceful looking areas. Shootings are so common in many cities that they hardly merit a mention in the news. Rural areas, especially in the south and west can be just as bad. You may find your (wooden!) house being used for target practice by drunken locals every Friday night. Don’t expect much help from the local cops either, because they are likely related to the people doing the shooting.
This is the kind of stuff that rarely makes the news, but happens all the time. There are lots of other problems too… it is a nice place to visit, and some regions (North East, for example) are relatively safe (for the most part, if you are sensible) but living there is very different. As an ‘Alien’ you will also have to deal with the INS and IRS on a regular basis: both of whom make their Spanish/European counterparts look welcoming and friendly by comparison.
Andy
$1,300+ per month per person? 😀 Are you talking about people with cancer, leukemia or permanent disability? The highest sum I have heard was $800/month for a family of 3. I only paid $40/month for a family of 4 (I think it was 10% of the actual cost, the rest was paid by my employer). Also, the medical care there is muuuuch better than the NHS.
I lived there 15 years and most of what you say does not make much sense. Do you have friends living in ghettos there? Where I lived (in Miami, Boston and San Francisco areas) things were quite smooth, never had any problems.
What you present is relevant for people who would be interested in the poorest areas. But who would move there? Would you live in UK in drug-infested areas?
Guess not… -
when you read the posts here its quite clear to those few of us with intelligence that it is saying don’t buy in Spain, only those that are looking in the mirror cannot see it, and continue with very poor innuendos because they have been hurt in Spain and cannot stand the truth. So they come back with dross and then blame others, so sad.
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Ahem….so much for goodwill over Christmas….. 😆
Actually, these are exactly the kind of constant personal attacks that we come to expect from you that are unhelpful on forums.Anyway, Mr. Grumpy, would you like to give us an example?
The “poor innuendos” are obviously so poor I’ve completely missed them. I’m clearly not one of the few with intelligence.However, on the bright side I am impressed you’ve managed to spell innuendo correctly.
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@charlie wrote:
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This forum in 2010 and beyond?
Will no doubt continuously keep swerving off topic like this thread. 😆SPI will always have three horses pulling in different directions – the investors, the ‘professionally biased’ and the lifestyle-seekers. .
Think that’s one of the attractions 😀
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@flosmichael wrote:
@66d35 wrote:
Andy
$1,300+ per month per person? 😀 Are you talking about people with cancer, leukemia or permanent disability? The highest sum I have heard was $800/month for a family of 3. I only paid $40/month for a family of 4 (I think it was 10% of the actual cost, the rest was paid by my employer). Also, the medical care there is muuuuch better than the NHS.
I lived there 15 years and most of what you say does not make much sense. Do you have friends living in ghettos there? Where I lived (in Miami, Boston and San Francisco areas) things were quite smooth, never had any problems.
What you present is relevant for people who would be interested in the poorest areas. But who would move there? Would you live in UK in drug-infested areas?
Guess not…I agree Flos. Over the top drivel except for the point about “aliens” . If health care is so bad in the USA how do they remain top in many stats life expectancy for cancer survival etc.
My Sister has lived there (happily) for years, we lived there for a time and the people were the friendliest of all the countries we have lived in. Don’t recognise it at all 🙄
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charlie
i’m so sorry to hear of your lack of intelligence. There was me thinking all along that you come across as pretty bright, but NO!, The trouble with you is, you keep looking in those mirrors and it makes you think that some very honest company’s in Spain tried to swindle you out of a large sum of money. I must have also been a victim of the mirror because i’ve sadly come to the same conclusion as you about the Spanish property situation. We should feel lucky though that there are some very intelligent people replying to us who can tell us exactly where we have gone wrong, and rid us of any thoughts of corruption or injustice.
Have a good Xmas, and keep away from those mirrors, heaven knows what they will lead you to say next? -
@charlie wrote:
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Mark – I must say I am disappointed in your use of words in your opening post.“This forum is not here just to tell people never buy a property in Spain”.
I joined this forum four years ago (four years ago today coincidentally) and in all that time I do not recall ever seeing a post stating people should “never” buy property in Spain. ‘Delay’ in buying, yes – because of the market/corruption/whatever.As someone who found this forum some 2 ½ years ago my thoughts of some of the posters were definitely “don’t buy in Spain” without maybe the use of those exact words, Most can also be read as “buy later” sure but as always how long do you leave it 2, 5 or more years ?, we don’t get any younger.
Some posters were/are always pointing out all the problems with the property market in Spain (admittedly there are a lot) with little or no positives, indeed if you do talk positive you are accused of “talking up the market” and for me the two are very different.
We all have the right to express our opinions and I can only see things as I find them, people with problems with there properties in Spain will of course most of the time take a different view which I fully understand
Having said that the posters that have had problems in one way or another have been a great resource to a new purchaser with the view as to the pitfalls of buying, add this to the posts/blog by Mark the forum is a great recourse and did not put me off buying in Spain
So forward to 2010 8)
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Andy, I have lived and worked in the USA previously for some years, more so in Southern California, San Diego which has the best year round climate in the US. It’s a great place to live, it’s like Spain for weather but the cleanliness, infrastructure, cost of living, quality of life and general feel good factor for me beats Spain hands down. Yet you have the Spanish (Mexican) culture and language if you want too.
Boston’s another great place to live. Both are made better with friends and family there though, and I didn’t need rose coloured specs to enjoy life there, hence me saying I wish the US was where Spain was. 😉
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So is it welcome to the new swinging all positive forum in 2010. Lots of them about on the web. lots haven’t had a post for a month or two 😆
My point of view is that it would be difficult to find anything positive to say about the spanish property market right now. Anyone retiring to Spain with a UK income is instantly losing 30% of their purchasing power right now. What you buy now will be a lot cheaper next year. In “Inland” andalucía the junta and Seprona are still drawing up an inventory of which homes are considered illegal…until that is finished everyone in those areas are in limbo. Positive isn’t just writing about sun and sangria
I have never said on this forum do not buy in Spain, I don’t think many others have either. Even if they have…so what, as I posted yesterday it is a small forum not a world opinion maker! I have said I would not buy again in Spain but I think that’s called an opinion isn’t it 🙄
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Katy, that is exactly the problem; too many people (Brits) bought in Spain not thinking about currency fluctuations/ rainy days etc…….franky, anyone whose living standards in Spain could be adversely affected by movements in currency should not buy a holiday home, live abroad etc
they should stay in their home country and come for holidays renting the cheap flats available, great hotel deals etc……… living beyond ones means always ends in tears !!!!!!!Angie, how right you are about California; I’d love to sponsor a trip for all costa mayors/ and Zapatero to visit the areas from Santa Barbara all the way down to San Diego ……. they would be ashamed !! the last mayor of Marbella flew her team (business) to Punta del Este to get some ideas on town planning !! ha ha!!!!!
finally, Mark is right – trashing Spain has got a little out of hand!!! we all love it here and have a great life!! yeah, sure a high percentage are corrupt and lazy, they cheat the guiri etc – but hey, this is nothing new – it started in the sixties – so stop moaning and know who you’re dealing with !!!!!!!! then it’s paradise !!!!!!!!!!!
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I agree Flos. Over the top drivel except for the point about “aliens” .I’m afraid it isn’t. My wife is American (born and bred in NJ) and those are the facts. Check them. Her ex-father-in-law killed himself rather than bankrupt the entire family after he was diagnosed with a cancer that the insurance company refused to cover. A 68 year old friend of ours is trying to pay off a $70,000 hospital bill after the insurance wormed out of it on a spurious technicality and she cannot afford to fight them in court over it. Another family member (they both work) has experienced a massive increase in premiums over the last couple of years to the extent that the three of them, including their 14 year old daughter, also are now without coverage as the health cover costs exceed their mortgage repayments. Today, an estimated 58 million Americans have no medical cover whatsoever. The most recent quote my wife had for individual cover was $680 per month and that involved hefty co-pays (you pay every time you see a doctor, plus you pay a significant sum for every prescription). That policy also had multiple limitations and exclusion clauses.
I frankly do not really care if you like it/believe it or not. It happens to be a fact. There are certainly problems with the UK and Spanish systems, but not usually to the extent you have patients killing themselves to save their families from financial annihilation, which certainly happens – regularly – in the US, even if it is rarely covered by the press. The only way to avoid it is to either have the very best health insurance (extremely expensive) or to have no money or assets at all in the first place and get treatment under Medicaid. Too bad if you have inadequate insurance and a house, or car… it will be gone.
Andy
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From now on this forum is going to be like North Korea. Everyone happy, everything perfect. And guess who’s the Dear Leader…..
Joking aside, I just think it would be nice if this forum were a little less cynical. For a start let’s not assume that anyone saying anything positive is automatically ‘talking up the market’. That said I realise that some of you have good reason to be cynical.
Anyway, Katy is right to point out that this little, insignificant forum won’t change anything, let alone turn around the market.
Come to think of it, imagine if we could turn around a multi-billion Euro market? I’d be sitting on millions….. Come on everybody, all together, repeat after me, “Spanish property prices are going to explode in 2010”
Mark
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@mark wrote:
Come on everybody, all together, repeat after me, “Spanish property prices are going to explode in 2010”
Better drink a jug of Sangria first, it will then seem more believable. 😉
@mark wrote:
let’s not assume that anyone saying anything positive is automatically ‘talking up the market’.
And let’s not assume that anyone pointing out the dangers/pitfalls when buying in Spain is automatically a stupid idiot, lacking intelligence, and a brainless fool.
Come on Mark, fair rules for both sides. 😈
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i’m delighted with my purchase in the summer
150k euros inc furniture, nice community, close to beach , gym, sauna
15 mins to airport, view is very prettyit can be ok to buy in Spain- what would 150k buy you back in uk?
i did take a lot of time over the decision and this forum was invaluable in pointing out potential pitfalls
had good lawyer and and a helpful non pushy agent
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@66d35 wrote:
I agree Flos. Over the top drivel except for the point about “aliens” .I’m afraid it isn’t. My wife is American (born and bred in NJ) and those are the facts. Check them. Her ex-father-in-law killed himself rather than bankrupt the entire family after he was diagnosed with a cancer that the insurance company refused to cover. A 68 year old friend of ours is trying to pay off a $70,000 hospital bill after the insurance wormed out of it on a spurious technicality and she cannot afford to fight them in court over it. Another family member (they both work) has experienced a massive increase in premiums over the last couple of years to the extent that the three of them, including their 14 year old daughter, also are now without coverage as the health cover costs exceed their mortgage repayments. Today, an estimated 58 million Americans have no medical cover whatsoever. The most recent quote my wife had for individual cover was $680 per month and that involved hefty co-pays (you pay every time you see a doctor, plus you pay a significant sum for every prescription). That policy also had multiple limitations and exclusion clauses.
I frankly do not really care if you like it/believe it or not. It happens to be a fact. There are certainly problems with the UK and Spanish systems, but not usually to the extent you have patients killing themselves to save their families from financial annihilation, which certainly happens – regularly – in the US, even if it is rarely covered by the press. The only way to avoid it is to either have the very best health insurance (extremely expensive) or to have no money or assets at all in the first place and get treatment under Medicaid. Too bad if you have inadequate insurance and a house, or car… it will be gone.
Andy
OK, I now understand why you have that view of America.
NJ has some of the worst ghettos of America. It is true that Newark and Trenton have many crime infested areas. Of course, NJ also has the most brilliant scientists in the world in a place named Princeton, I am sure nobody shoots at houses in that city…
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@boothy wrote:
i’m delighted with my purchase in the summer
150k euros inc furniture, nice community, close to beach , gym, sauna
15 mins to airport, view is very prettyit can be ok to buy in Spain- what would 150k buy you back in uk?
i did take a lot of time over the decision and this forum was invaluable in pointing out potential pitfalls
had good lawyer and and a helpful non pushy agent
Sincerely boothy, your investment is a clear example of why people should not buy in Spain if they do not live over there…
You charge less than £200/week for most of the year, do you even cover the community fees +utiities out of those?
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@mark wrote:
Pointing out dangers and pitfalls is mainly what this website and forum does, so I don’t really see what you’re driving at.
I gather that’s aimed at me.
What I’m driving at is whereas you say we musn’t assume anyone saying positive stuff is purely ‘talking up the market’ – likewise people pointing out the dangers shouldn’t be assumed to be idiots who only have themselves to blame. And it would have been nice if you had pointed that out also. -
Perhaps Boothy is just happy to make a bit out of renting his lovely apartment and is happy to have a small ammount or income to put towards community fees /bills and just meets the rest himself, you know when you buy your going to have bills etc. So renting or not they have to be paid.
Hes happy with his lot , has his apartment being used , its not standing empty and getting neglected when he is not there. Does it have to be solely an investment could it not be just a nice holiday home. We all would like to see our homes stay or go up in value but if you were happy with what you paid for it originally and are enjoying using it , whats the problem.
He had a smooth purchase and Im pleased for him. Just enjoy your place Boothy make the most of it (lifes short enough)
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@boothy wrote:
hadnt planned to rent out initially but realised that i couldnt be there all the time
comm fees are 100 euros a mth, elect, adsl/phone etc add another 100
so 2400 a year which can be recovered in rentingWell, 2400/year is about 20 weeks/year without taxes (I have no idea how much are the taxes)…
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In a converse sort of way, I really think those including me who point out the pitfalls, dangers, and problems of buying in Spain, are actually improving the property market in Spain.
Already, many of the dodgy and crooked Agents and Developers have gone out of business, there is a little (but not enough) being done regarding crooked mayors/town halls etc, and people seem more aware of which developments to avoid, those that are still vastly overpriced and more aware of ensuring what is bought is actually legal.
Those buying are taking more care perhaps, putting in lower offers and it is mainly this website that has highlighted problems compared to others.
So, Happy Christmas to Barcelona Mark and to all those on this forum including those who’ve argued the toss with me, it’s not personal, it’s business! 😉 😆 8)
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Would be useful to get some valid stats out as to what is actually happening instead of listening to howmany properties certain agents have sold.
http://media.naplesnews.com/media/static/CollierSales1220.pdf
Certainly beats the rubbish from Tinsa 🙄
C
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Mark
perhaps forums like this do have more clout than than we think? Anyone thinking of buying in Spain with any sense will do their homework very thoroughly, and that will include doing as much research on the web as possible before even thinking of going out to Spain. I think they are likely to come across this site, EOS, and probably Lawbirds various sites as well as a few others. They are of course very different sites but the content of the forums is much the same because the experience is the same. I agree with Angie that those pointing out ugly truths are helping. The rotten apples have to be thrown out before things can get better. Although some of the positive side of Spain may be getting a bit lost in the critisism, at least the truth is now well and truly out. It’s then up to the individual to make their decision based on fact, not bullshit from agents, backed up by crooked lawyers, as was often the case a few years ago!
You may just be having more influence than you thought, at least to UK and English speaking buyers?
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@mark wrote:
You could argue that it’s the best time to buy in years, though it might be even better next year, or even the year after. It depends what you’re after.
But hey, I guess I’m just talking up the market.
I sometimes get the impression it is considered treachery around here to even suggest that some people might benefit from buying a home in Spain, even if it suits them to do so at this stage in their lives.
Mark
As one who has always talked up the market, I have to say that those who have been “negative” have in the main always been entirely fair and open to the “positive” aspects that also pertain to the market here.
When I have ventured an opinion I don’t feel I have been treated as treacherous, I am an occasional reader now rather than a contributor / poster, feeling that what I had to say; well I have said it many times over.
But with due respect to the perceived “negative” and perhaps some of the overly “analytical” types, I think it was interesting to see so many casual vistiors or “read only” types come on to this particular thread and engage with their positive reaction to Mark´s intial post.
2010 and beyond is going to be very interesting indeed, there will be much that is “positive” but I am all for Angie, Goodsitch, Katy et al keeping everyone on their toes, yet hopefully more people like Boothy, SteveV6 and others who have bought, will now be able to express why, without being assumed to be half mad or throwing their money away, which patently they are not.
There is a veritable thunderstorm lashing the CDS as I write, but I played golf in glorious sunshine on Saturday having had a fabulous few weeks here, I fly to snowbound Yorkshire on Wednesday for Xmas and am sure to have a lovely time there also. All I can say is there is good and bad in everywhere, yet for me, I just can’t split Harrogate / UK or Marbella / Spain, right now I am just lucky to have a bit of both.
Feliz Navidad to some and Merry Christmas to others, there is nobody on this forum has it all right, and nobody has it all wrong either. Long may the debate continue and stay open to all views right through 2010 and beyond.
Eee… And I thought I was done posting!
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I think Boothy got a lot of help from this forum when he was searching for a property. SteveV6 has some good (genuine) positive posts and I believe his development is much improved. He and Paul seem genuinely pleased with their purchases.
I read spanish forums occasionally and if you think this site is negative about the Costas etc…………………………. 😯
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Mark
A forum is a place to exchange information and i guess the name of this forum gives a clue as to the subject matter. My view of the property we bought it Elviria CDS is well documented here, in a nutshell we are very happy.
The problem with this forum and i have to say the problem with all forums is this they are notoriously hard to moderate. Anyone in IT will tell you they should be avoided like the plague. That said they are the only solution to providing an information exchange where anyone can take part.
I once suggested that this forum was a closed shop in fact it was my first post back in 2006 in this thread my view has NOT changed. Over the years I’ve been accused of being a agent, working for a developer and a dual poster, all because my view is different to others on here. It is easy to get drawn in to these flaming sessions and try to either defend yourself, your purchase or your view. I decided about a year ago not to bother anymore with this. I check the forum most weeks to see if there is anything of interest and while it is interesting to see some of the same old arguments still running around i have to say there has been little by way of news or a new view for months in my opinion. Still the same hard core contributors though 🙂
Mark I don’t know if the forum is worthwhile i would miss it, even though i only contribute when i see a point, and i see arguing with others pointless. That said I agree there will be those who still intend to buy in Spain and the past posts on here will help them. I note you have Google Analytics running on the site so you should be able to see how many unique visitors you have, how many are regular visitors, the visits per day etc etc. I guess these figures would make interesting reading if only to see if traffic to your site has increased or decreased and by how much over the last couple of years.
Merry Christmas to you all.
Paul
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I’m bringing the discussion from another thread here where it belongs.
For years this forum has been dominated by people with an axe to grind. There’s no denying that many have valid reasons to be angry, but the end result is a boring and sterile forum basically hostile to people with an interest in buying or owning a property in Spain. That is not what I intended.
P800aul’s post above gets to the essence of the problem. I suggest you all read it very carefully as it might help you understand how many people feel about this forum, and why they don’t bother to participate.
When I say ‘more balance’ some of you automatically assume that means ‘no criticism’. I’m not going to waste my time explaining the difference to you.
Unless I can get more balance into this forum, and make it more relevant to its target audience – people like P800aul – I’m going to close it down. I do not wish to continue dedicating time and money to hosting a forum with no business value that only appeals to a narrow audience of Spain-bashers.
But before I do that let’s see if we can all get on with less drastic measures.
If you want to start your own thread on why Spain is a corrupt and awful place where you should never invest, feel free (within reason). But don’t jump on every thread making the same negative points over and over again. In short, let positive threads go their own way, and only contribute if you have something constructive to add. Before posting, ask yourself, have I made this point before? If the answer is yes, then maybe you don’t need to make the same point again.
I think that is reasonable. After that come more drastic measures. And let me make one thing clear. I really don’t mind if this forum goes very quiet, so long as the few people posting have something fresh and interesting to say.
Have a nice Sunday.
Mark
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ashtondav wrote:Can we have a “doomsters, whingers, price collapsing, demolitions, crooked spanish forum” and a separate one for those who wish to discuss buying in Spain?
What about one for “cloud nine owners in Spain”, like yourself?
You do not bring anything interesting except unrealistic figures… -
I find it difficult to believe that people don’t/or are afraid to post because there are opposing views 🙄 Sounds more like a way of throwing their toys out of the pram because posters don’t have the same viewpoint. Isn’t a forum a discussion or do you want one with everyone like Thornton saying “well said Mark” (or similar!). BTW Thornton, we never did get any info’ as to if you actually built a house in the Pueblo that you cannot spell ❓ Claire, myself and a few others have been the butt of insults from him and a few others who have been extremely rude without any moderation, hasn’t put us off posting our opinion…seems that censorship will though
Spanish Property Insight Positive posts only, don’t forget to mention the Tapas and glass of wine on your terrace, estate agents welcome! -
ashtondav
Why not just two main threads? One thread for those who want facts and reality, good and bad, for as long as Spain’s property industry remains a corrupt mess for many, and one for those who want to sit in a circle, join hands and sing ‘Happy Spain’ songs,…… your choice?. You could break the circle and just clap if you don’t know the words!
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Why not threads with different opinions 💡 instead of insults! or is it that the happy clappy brigade don’t really have any answers to the thousands of people who have lost everything in the spanish property market, it’s beginning to sound like “don’t mention the war”. Put it all behind you Goodstitch, move on, who is going to buy Spanish properties with you and a few others whinging 😉
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You pontificate about ‘the market’ and ‘hard facts’ but how much do you really know beyond your street? What continuous research and property visits around Spain do you base your sweeping statements on? What about upmarket sea-view homes in Ibiza? Top end plots in Mallorca? Masias in the Costa Brava? Flats in the Born in Barcelona? Luxury villas in La Moraleja and designer flats in Chueca? Traditional stone houses in Galicia, Cantabria and Asturias? Detached properties in La Peña in Tarifa? Fincas in Extremadura? Hunting estates in Cadiz? Do you know for a fact that nobody is buying these things today? I’ve been doing a lot of market research all over Spain recently, and there’s a lot more going on than you think. Of course the heat has gone out of the market, and prices and transactions are down, but there are plenty of buyers getting great deals today. I pasted this from the thread that was locked as I was holidaying in Florida with little time to reply. I didn’t think I did “Pontificate” just give an opinion. I actually do know quite a bit about Spain having a Spanish Grandfather, a year at Uni in Sevilla and worked three months in a spanish bank. I was visiting Spain before I can remember, my parents owned property and I have many (albiet distant) relatives in Madrid. Most of the places you mention will not appeal to the majority of ex-pats…and I do know most of the areas you mention, not just my street in Marbella! However, there is nothing better than being on the shop-floor to see what is happening, better than googling and research so naturally I use that area as an example. The Spanish will , of course still buy, their houses don’t seem to be declared “illegal” (note the large structure next to the Priors owned by a local spanish politician!) for the average ex-pat buying in Spain will only be a trickle, you may get negativity out of the forum but even the Mail and Telegraph are reporting these incidents. Infact the coverage in the Mail was so expertly put it could only have been written by an ex-pat 😉
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@alanrthornton wrote:
STEVE WHY ARE YOU SO DAMN RUDE
That is a reply from someone who calls other members’ posts “garbage”, tells them to “shut up” and accuses them of being “thick”.
Many threads have gone off course by this type of constant antagonising and even mocking those caught up in the corruption at any opportunity but – as Steve says – actually never makes any contribution to any debate. Mark is trying to make a fresh start for the forum – you continuing to critcise members is not the way to go.
Alan, in all seriousness, you do sound like a broken record with this constant sniping at members. Can you not just stick to debating?
And again, in all seriousness, going by your past posts you are not in a position to cry “insult!”. As you said once, “i enjoy the swearing and hostility” which is why I suspect you are here. Prove to me that I am wrong, from now on just omit your sniping at members (then you won’t get any back and feel insulted or feel ‘shot down’) and stick to the subject in question.You are going through a procedure yourself in Spain, obtaining planning permission and dealing with the local Town Hall re. your piece of land. Why not share this experience on the fourm as you go through this, it could help others in the same position.
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Alan – in the beginning your opening post on the forum did not give enough detail for anyone to help. And remember that not every request for help can be answered if no-one here has been through a particular problem. It doesn’t necessarily mean you are being ignored.
But now, over a year down the line, you must have gained some valuable experience – trying to get rural land urbanised if I remember correctly? – your experience/gained knowledge of procedures to date could be shared and just maybe there is someone out there who could give some advice at whatever stage you are at? Surely this could be the most valuable way to spend time here. I know the advice I found here all those years ago certainly saved my bacon. I even found my excellent lawyer through this forum.Mark’s right, we need to pull our socks up if this forum is to stay on track.
Want to try again? New year, new start? Start a new thread regarding your case and see if it can bear fruit. -
Whilst I was sleeping the insults were flying. Do I now have to give up sleeping? I already give too much time to this forum, considering it doesn’t pay its way.
Other steps I am going to take:
Anyone who from now on is consistently aggressive, regardless of their position as for or against Spanish property, will be chucked out of the forum.
I’ll start deleting any posts that in my opinion do not add value to the forum, whether they are positive or negative. That’s not to say I’m going to delete all banter, just the stuff that bugs me.
I’ll prepare a document called ‘The Risks of Buying in Spain’ detailing all the pitfalls, for example dodgy agents, developers, lawyers, judges, politicians, property rights, land grab, ley de costas, market risks, justice denied, bank guarantees, water problems, etc., to which all of you can contribute with your personal experiences if you wish. I’ll make this document a permanent fixture at the head of the forum, so nobody can miss it, especially not newcomers. That way you will know the forum is doing its job to warn others without you having to repeat yourselves.
Mark
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@Claire wrote:
Sooooo, should we have a poll as to whether or not you should close the forum because it is obviously becoming a headache for you?( Like leaving a classroom full of kids to run the class themselves. You probably think that (kids) is a good analogy. 😉
Whatever the result, it would be your decision at the end of the day. I just don’t see how you can stop people posting grievances though.
I dont see anywhere that it is suggested that grievances are not posted.
Most readers are well aware that there are problems in Spain, as indeed there are in most countries. I think it is suggested that those who have a grievance should confine those to the posts that are specifically about matters relating to that grievance.
I am fully supportive of all and any initiative to bring these wholly unjust actions to the notice of those that matter.
However although I am one who has lost a great deal of money on a property that has never been built. I still wish to embrace all that is good about Spain and still looking to make that move.
I have found this site extremely helpfull in helping me to make an informed decision and hopefully will be enjoying my retirement in a country property on the edge of a traditional white Spanish village in 2010
So please keep the grievances to posts that reflect them and leave positive posts free of negativity.
We are all well aware that a huge number of us have been badly affected and do not wish to lose the valuable support of the many thousands who have not.
Its time for me to move on and I hope that even the most bitter amongst us will find the will and the courage to do the same. I hope that this site will continue to grow and offer the help and guidance that it has me. -
Personally, I think the idea from Mark of a permanent heading outlining ‘The Risks of Buying in Spain’ is a very good point providing it gathers the points gained from the pain that many have experienced here.
Those with a vested interest who also talk the market up when maybe that’s not the case should, IMO also be regulated here.
Anything that is readily accessible to potential new buyers is positive. 😉
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@Claire wrote:
Anyway, why don’t you just button up and see how it turns out. After all it might be fine, you might even find you enjoy the forum more.
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Having read your last post Mark I think you are guilty of unnecessary rudeness and happily leave this forum. One down………………Blimey this thread got interesting again, all of a sudden!
Don’t leave Claire, don’t button up either, maybe Mark just has a point and we should see if it becomes a bit more enjoyable really.
You are in my opinion a very valued poster and source of information.
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angie
I wonder if perhaps ‘The risks of buying in Spain’ heading should be written by the Priors?. Someone with first hand experience, and just one of many cases of human rights abuse. Along with this and a link to the recent Times report, and a few other crucial details, people should then have the bare facts in front of them. Then it’s up to them?
Certainly those who talk up the market should be regulated if anyone? It was that kind of bull*hit and lies that’s caused much of the misery.
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@goodstich44 wrote:
I wonder if perhaps ‘The risks of buying in Spain’ heading should be written by the Priors?.
Certainly those who talk up the market should be regulated if anyone? It was that kind of bull*hit and lies that’s caused much of the misery.And perhaps there could be a counter balanced heading saying:
“The benefits of buying in Spain”
There are a reported 1 million Brits who have bought in Spain, people who are very happy and have no problem, it is not all doom and gloom.
And I think that is the point here, balance, nobody is beating you up for having a negative view, so nobody should be beaten up for a positive view either.
And there are many who come here, who are looking to understand what genuine and bright opportunities do exist for them. Just that anyone who projects anything positive is shot down with lines about the poor Priors or other activities that pertain to the past.
What is current and pertinent today though? Doesn’t have to be “happy clappy” just relevant.
I was involved in a Villa sale last week, where a property next door was sold for €840,000 two and half years ago, and this identical property sold €470,000 today.
Is that a horror story, or a great story? Discuss, debate, get a view of where is the insight to today’s market and its opportunities. Is that talking the market up? I don’t think so, should it be interspersed with a whole range of negative comments about yesteryear, I don’t think so either.
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Chris, I would just like to ask…if the property market is doing ok why would someone need to use Viva with their high commissions to shift it? Surely they would have been able to sell by private ad’ or word-of mouth etc. I have used Viva a few times and was happy to pay the high fee because they were getting a good price for me. However if I was reducing so drastically I would try to go it alone (and surely succeed in a reasonable market!).
I have to say I have looked at a few websites and fail to see anything that I viewed as a good deal. This of course is in areas I know, as Mark pointed out I don’t the whole of Spain and the Islands like he does 🙄
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Chris
the point of a heading is to warn of the very real dangers. People can find as much positive info’ from you and many others as they wish, but surely they must be armed first with the dreadful reality of Spain’s lack of implemented law and justice that’s taken for granted in northern euro countries.
Having all legal documents, being in the right, winning a long court case etc, often stands for nothing when buying in Spain as you well know. Nothing to do with opinion, just hard fact that all should be made very aware of. Then it’s up to them!
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mark
….. compared to previous prices. Who knows though? In a year or two, the huge overbuild situation and huge bank losses and Spain’s now known very real legal scams, could well make anything bought now look very expensive in year or two? If banks feel they can’t wait any longer for the market to improve to move their massive housing stocks at a decent price, or the public start to feel that despite negative equity they will somehow try and cut further losses by getting rid, how will the market look then?
Perhaps the market has bottomed out?, but a gut feeling tells me that until Spain’s powers that be, do something to reverse a worsening reputation, then things could get far worse before recovery?
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@goodstich44 wrote:
mark
….. compared to previous prices. Who knows though? In a year or two, the huge overbuild situation and huge bank losses and Spain’s now known very real legal scams, could well make anything bought now look very expensive in year or two? If banks feel they can’t wait any longer for the market to improve to move their massive housing stocks at a decent price, or the public start to feel that despite negative equity they will somehow try and cut further losses by getting rid, how will the market look then?
Goodstich, I guess there is a big difference between the properties you are refering to when you say huge overbuilt situation and the properties Mark is refering to (Top end plots in Mallorca, Masias in the Costa Bravat, Born in Barcelona, Luxury villas in La Moraleja and designer flats in Chueca).
You refer to different things so whet Mark says cannot agree with what you say…
Mark refers to something like this
http://www.lucasfox.com/property/sale/Barcelona-city-Barcelona-Spain/pid-9391172FFF
and you (and me, and others) refer to something this:
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@katy wrote:
Chris, I would just like to ask…if the property market is doing ok why would someone need to use Viva with their high commissions to shift it? Surely they would have been able to sell by private ad’ or word-of mouth etc. I have used Viva a few times and was happy to pay the high fee because they were getting a good price for me. However if I was reducing so drastically I would try to go it alone (and surely succeed in a reasonable market!).
I have to say I have looked at a few websites and fail to see anything that I viewed as a good deal. This of course is in areas I know, as Mark pointed out I don’t the whole of Spain and the Islands like he does 🙄
Hi Katy,
Bit of a rushed answer as I am between meetings at the minute.
I am far from saying the market is doing OK at the moment, the market is at its worst point in my 21 years experience (it used to be 20 but I just counted up and realised now is 21).
I never thought it could be as bad as 89-94 but it is and worse.
I don’t wish to comment too much about VIVA its not my place to really and I wish to avoid commercial posting also.
But I wouldn’t say their commissions are “high” they are the norm, and lets not get into comparing with the UK, who along with one or two other countries have the lowest in the world, the US and most other markets are at around 5% as are VIVA’s commissions.
People don’t need to use VIVA or anyone else, I myself sold my own property via word of mouth two years ago, and many people do exactly that here on the Costa and actually you would wonder why people use agents at all, not only here but more so in the UK, what do they do for their money?
Everyone can go it alone, but you know it isn’t that easy, if just putting the word out around your community doesn’t work, then you have to advertise and that costs, and you have to compete with agents who are offering their services of viewing mulitple properties along with their advertising or lead generation through sharing clients, and hopefully their ability to negotiate best prices and ensure most importantly that people are not actually over paying for properties, that the client is indeed buying the best property, at the best price, in the best location etc related to budget / spend.
A lot of people need help and support buying here, and then selling here also, and by goodness we can see that in many cases during the boom years they just didn’t get that, they were in fact abused and cruelly so in a certain number of significant cases… Goodsitch being a case in point.
But even then, it is not all down to the Agent in that regard, it is also down to the Lawyers and ohhh… no here we go on that one.
However the main point is, you don’t necessarily need VIVA or anyone, but then again you don’t pay unless you sell, though VIVA does charge for some services – if the client wants to avail themselves of those services – or may even charge a higher fee for yet more options.
It is your choice.
As for looking at websites and seeing a good deal or not, the point is usually you have to actually look at properties themselves, in person, and see the reality, and then ask the question: “Would this property be reduced under any circumstances…?” or state “I would be prepared to pay X for this property, would the vendor accept that…?”
Also one last point, lets remember, not every vendor, in fact very many are not actually resident here, they need the services of an agent to handle all of this in their absence.
In one last respect, also remember why you perhaps used VIVA in the past and would separate them from other agents.
Who is the only agent that actually, genuinely advertises and promotes individual properties in the manner that VIVA does and the team there has done over a decade in the past? It is VIVA, nobody comes even close to their activity then and now.
But don’t assume their commission is 5% to them, with the multiple listing and sharing of buyers and vendors that is prevalent today, VIVA’s actual commissions of old, I cannot comment on the new VIVA, would have actually been 3.2% over all sales.
Many external agents from around Europe and the World would have taken their introduction or referral percentage commonly a 50/50 split fee.
Then to, jeeze take a look at what companies like VIVA do in actual marketing not just on the CDS but outside as well. That is a huge cost and one that no UK company or agent has to involve themselves with.
I hope that answers your question? I hope it was not a commercial response, I have never had a lead from here anyway and don’t expect one either!
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@goodstich44 wrote:
Chris
the point of a heading is to warn of the very real dangers. People can find as much positive info’ from you and many others as they wish, but surely they must be armed first with the dreadful reality of Spain’s lack of implemented law and justice that’s taken for granted in northern euro countries.
Having all legal documents, being in the right, winning a long court case etc, often stands for nothing when buying in Spain as you well know. Nothing to do with opinion, just hard fact that all should be made very aware of. Then it’s up to them!
You are right, be warned of the dangers and the reality.
And be aware of what some have suffered, but then again I read yesterday of someone who has taken off with a whole bunch of money selling properties I think in Cyprus, from premises in the UK, and nobody seems to have had any redress there.
The vast, vast majority of people that have bought homes in Spain over the past 40 odd years have done so with nothing like the complications you have, in fact i think today is probably as a result of instances such as yours, the safest and most secure time to buy in Spain.
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Chris
….I would like to think so?, but with courts almost log-jammed with cases of fraud/corruption stretching out years not months, and many cases against those in positions of legal trust, such as lawyers, town planners, mayors, etc and the shocking reports in the recent Times articles, there’s a long way to go. With the huge sums of money involved, we have to be able to believe in justice when buying property, but that clearly still can’t be relied on when buying property in Spain.
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@Chris McCarthy wrote:
I am far from saying the market is doing OK at the moment, the market is at its worst point in my 21 years experience (it used to be 20 but I just counted up and realised now is 21).
I never thought it could be as bad as 89-94 but it is and worse.
!Sorry, about one year ago you called me “doomster” because I told you that it is going to be much worse before it is going to be better…
It was very clear that the situation was going to be worse that in 89-94 because the conditions are different.
You should trust people with some economics knowledge…
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@flosmichael wrote:
Sorry, about one year ago you called me “doomster” because I told you that it is going to be much worse before it is going to be better…
It was very clear that the situation was going to be worse that in 89-94 because the conditions are different.
You should trust people with some economics knowledge…I do trust you Flosmichael, I don’t think I would have used the expression “doomster” or in such a negative context you show above, about you, but if I did I apologise.
But the point is, for some the worse the situation is, the better it becomes, for many this is OPPORTUNITY KNOCKS I think it was Mark that quoted someone with the greatest financial knowledge being Warren Buffet when he said something akin to… “Be fearful when others are greedy, yet be greedy when others are fearful”.
You will forgive me if I go with Warren Buffets view I hope.
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@goodstich44 wrote:
Chris
….I would like to think so?, but with courts almost log-jammed with cases of fraud/corruption stretching out years not months, and many cases against those in positions of legal trust, such as lawyers, town planners, mayors, etc and the shocking reports in the recent Times articles, there’s a long way to go. With the huge sums of money involved, we have to be able to believe in justice when buying property, but that clearly still can’t be relied on when buying property in Spain.
I think I have answered that question and point many times Goodsitch, and you make it on almost every thread. Again, I hear you, I have every sympathy with you and those who have suffered for the past.
But I think that people are secure buying property in Spain and there are countless opportunities to do so succesfully, especially now, if you buy for the right reasons and take the right advice.
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@Chris McCarthy wrote:
@flosmichael wrote:
Sorry, about one year ago you called me “doomster” because I told you that it is going to be much worse before it is going to be better…
It was very clear that the situation was going to be worse that in 89-94 because the conditions are different.
You should trust people with some economics knowledge…I do trust you Flosmichael, I don’t think I would have used the expression “doomster” or in such a negative context you show above, about you, but if I did I apologise.
But the point is, for some the worse the situation is, the better it becomes, for many this is OPPORTUNITY KNOCKS I think it was Mark that quoted someone with the greatest financial knowledge being Warren Buffet when he said something akin to… “Be fearful when others are greedy, yet be greedy when others are fearful”.
You will forgive me if I go with Warren Buffets view I hope.
Hi Chris,
because today we learned that the hyperinflation period might start soon,
buying a house might be a good thing.I might look seriously when I go to Spain in July-August and I can even buy if I like something.
I perfectly agree with gree and fear Warren Buffet view.
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Chris
there are still many cases going on NOW that are not being resolved. If you want to deny that, that’s your choice, but that’s the reality. Justice in particular is still very much a lottery. Of course many buy without problems, but when you need to rely on right v wrong legal matters, the trust we have to rely on in the system is not there. Until that trust is there, buying will at best be dodgy!
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@goodstich44 wrote:
OliverB
yes it’s a boring fact that needs change. What have you done to help?
Goodstich
You are nothing more than a troll
Constantly repeating the same point on a number of forums regardless of its topic.
😡 😡 -
@GJ wrote:
@goodstich44 wrote:
OliverB
yes it’s a boring fact that needs change. What have you done to help?
Goodstich
You are nothing more than a troll
Constantly repeating the same point on a number of forums regardless of its topic.
😡 😡Has anybody ever stolen from you tens of thousands of £? If yes, how long did it take for you to forgive them?
Put yourself in goodstich skin, he was robbed and he wants to let everybody know that. It does not matter how many times he tells us about the robery, they are still discussing about Jesse James even after 100 years and nobody seems to be bored.
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@GJ wrote:
Goodstich
You are nothing more than a troll
Constantly repeating the same point on a number of forums regardless of its topic.
😡 😡I think that is very harsh and unfair, Goodsitch does recognise many benefits and reasons for buying in Spain, and is nothing like as rabid or ranting as some who could be mentioned.
He hasn’t had any justice to date, however, I think he certainly would have had justice from the system if in fact this hadn’t coincided with the credit crisis where the people he had a complaint against went into liquidation.
Actually, the system can work very well, it does take years at times, and i think Goodsitch would have had satisfaction eventually but for the credit crisis and the collapse of so many companies.
Its not so much zzzzz… or being a troll, it is a bit boring, but then so am I with my consistently upbeat message!
It is about more people debating the prospects for benefit on here I think, and being warned of the dangers as Angie et al point out. It is about balance and I would say that Goodsitch offers that.
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@flosmichael wrote:
Hi Chris,
because today we learned that the hyperinflation period might start soon,
buying a house might be a good thing.
I might look seriously when I go to Spain in July-August and I can even buy if I like something.
I perfectly agree with gree and fear Warren Buffet view.I can’t deny a little flutter went up in my heart when I heard the inflation figures yesterday, because cash is no thing to have when we go into high inflation – it is the worst thing to have is my understanding and property maybe the best thing to have.
So music to my ears at least.
And, lo and behold, could the pound breakthrough to 1.15 against the Euro today and go back to 1.20 sometime soon… oooh please.
But once again all swings and roundabouts, meantime for better or worse, the people I work with will keep looking for vendors and keep promoting to buyers… because well someone has to!
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@goodstich44 wrote:
Chris
thanks for that. I realise we come from different angles, but I do indeed respect your right to your opinion, as you do mine.
I feel I’ve outstayed my welcome on this website, so thanks to all who have supported me and many others wronged over the years.
All the best.I very much meant what I said Goodstich, and I would say clearly please don’t go, I don’t think Mark would want you to go, and if you do go then maybe he should close the forum.
In fact if you do go, then despite having said “I’m off” myself before now, then I go also, because the balance goes with it.
See Lenox’s post and Zapatero’s face on youtube, there might be hope yet! You have much to add here I think.
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Goodstich – don’t let rudeness be a cause for you to leave. We have taken tons of rudeness over the years, just add it to the list. 😉
Katy won’t stop ‘pontificating’ and Claire won’t ‘button up’ I’m sure – and nor should they. Chris – I think you’ve taken some posts bordering on uncalled-for bluntness recently, good for you for hanging in there and responding with decorum.
There used to be such a nice atmosphere on this forum despite differing opinions. Can’t anyone debate/exchange thoughts politely any more?
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Thanks for your nice words and support. Thank heavens for the big hearted people on the forum.
OK, for the sake of everyones sanity, I will try to not to keep banging the same drum, and as you say Charlie will try to ignore the rudeness and not be bought down to that level.
For the record, all my litigation is now finished, so any comments are not to forward my cause, but only to help or at least inform others when I can?
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angie
thanks, and yes, Claire told me she was blocked last week. Sadly, I do feel that ugly truths are welcome here as long as they don’t outnumber the ‘positive’ posts, even if some of the ‘positive’ replies are just lies and bull*hit for reasons that we all know about. I feel we have no choice but to comprimise or be kicked off?
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@goodstich44 wrote:
angie
thanks, and yes, Claire told me she was blocked last week. Sadly, I do feel that ugly truths are welcome here as long as they don’t outnumber the ‘positive’ posts, even if some of the ‘positive’ replies are just lies and bull*hit for reasons that we all know about. I feel we have no choice but to comprimise or be kicked off?
Goodstitch, this is the only place where some non-vested interest discussions about Spanish property can be had. Go to EOS or others and there is nothing to discuss over there as everybody there lives in la-la-land.
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Spain is an enormous county that no-one how ever much they have travelled or length of time lived here can know about intimately so why, instead of lambasting or praising this country, it’s lawyers, and builders etc as a whole why don’t we all stick to the particular areas and problems we do know.
That way people seeking info about buying in this vast country called Spain can get the very best advice without the constant childish derisary remarks and accusations of being for or against a particular posting.
No-where and no-one is totally perfect neither are all places, builders or lawyers totally bad.On a personal level as far as I am aware my region has no illegal builds but we do have a dodgy building company that has marketed itself specifically toward the expat community and although the houses are legal many of the extras that Brits have paid licences, to the builder for, are not.
This has come to light because my local townhall want every “t” crossed twice.I know zilch about the CDS and other areas expect for what I read in the newspapers and since the ” Lorca Chinese Affair” we are all aware now that 90 % of what is written in them is usually incorrect.
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@goodstich44 wrote:
angie
thanks, and yes, Claire told me she was blocked last week. Sadly, I do feel that ugly truths are welcome here as long as they don’t outnumber the ‘positive’ posts, even if some of the ‘positive’ replies are just lies and bull*hit for reasons that we all know about. I feel we have no choice but to comprimise or be kicked off?
Yes, Claire has been banned. 🙁 Don’t know if there are any more as we wouldn’t know unless in touch with people personally. I have been a member of the A.com forum for 6 years and have never had a warning. We have spats, make up (sometimes) but the only ones who have been banned are the dual personality ones. Lots of banter on a.com but some are very imformative and have better knowledge than most spanish lawyers. EOS I don’t like not only is it silly it’s full of agents.
Stalin would have loved forums wouldn’t he 😉 Well, just off to the beach, drink of wine in the hot sun and watch the pigs fly 😉
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@goodstich44 wrote:
I feel we have no choice but to comprimise or be kicked off?
Claire has never done comprimise which I suppose makes her guilty of just having an opinion that all don’t necessarily agree with.
It just seems rather hypocritical to block her when others are guilty of giving their opinion in a far ruder way than she has ever done. But there you go.
Again, many in the past have said they’re leaving but they have never been ‘deactivated’, and usually return at some later stage. Claire hasn’t been given that option.Actually, on this occasion I think after years of having to take a lot of verbal abuse herself, she finally accused the ‘wrong person’ of being rude.
Yes, she has been blocked, but the only annoying thing for her at the moment is she still keeps receiving e-mail notification from SPI of when new posts arrive and she now can’t access the forum to switch them off.
Would you like to complete the job you’ve started Mark and block those too, she would appreciate it as it’s rather like adding insult to injury at the moment. Or better still (for me at least) why not simply reactivate her. I think the point of ‘buttoning her up’ has been made. -
Melosine
I agree it’s silly to generalise over ever aspect, but with some of the most important issues we know about, you don’t have to live in a particular country to know it’s wrong. For instance, although your region has no illegal builds, if you need to take an issue to court, how long do you think it would take?, can you be sure of a good lawyer and what chance of justice if you do? Yes I know we choose to live or buy in country with it’s own ways, but I don’t think that justifies much of the ‘wrong’ that we know has done so much damage to Spain and individuals involved?
flosmichael
yes, I always thought this site was as you described, but I do now feel the limit on the ‘negative’ has moved the goalposts a bit?
katy
ah, but those pigs have been given strong wings!!
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@goodstich44 wrote:
flosmichael
yes, I always thought this site was as you described, but I do now feel the limit on the ‘negative’ has moved the goalposts a bit?
!The issue is that there are few new people coming here (as very few seem to be interested in buying Spanish property nowadays).
So maybe reserve the “very negative” posts for a time when people will have the least bit of interest of buying and the pitfalls might become a bit more relevant?
When nobody buys, there is no danger. 😀 -
So what should everyone do? Don’t buy anywhere other than your home country because you are doomed to failure and a life of misery.
There are many reasons people want to buy a property overseas and although at one time investment was a large part of it there are still lots of good reasons to consider Spain.
DON’T buy if the only reason is to make money on your property.
If you do however want good weather, nice people, great food and a decent quality of life then Spain could still be for you.
Right now tourism is at an all time low and there are shops, hotels, bars and restaurants closing at an astonishing rate. But how is tourism in other European countries? How is tourism in Dubai? How about Brazil?
As soon as the exchange rate improves (which it is doing right now) UK tourists will come back and spend money.
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@pj wrote:
Right now tourism is at an all time low…..
http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_24833.shtml
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So you think that the average family in the UK booking their holidays review the politics, local economy, any real estate corruption, crime, number of shops etc closed in the last year and SPI before they go ahead and book? Or do they look at things like exchange rates, weather and cost of flights / accommodation?
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@charlie wrote:
@pj wrote:
Right now tourism is at an all time low…..
http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_24833.shtml
So last year only 100 sales made in the entire year?
😆
Hey I must tell my friend that he was responsible for over 10% of all Malaga property sales last year…he will be pleased
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As it was the Málaga Association of Constructors and Promoters who said this, maybe they were talking about new-builds only, not re-sales?
Normally, this source is pretty accurate – don’t shoot the messenger. 😆And who knows, maybe your friend was responsible for over 10% of all Malaga property sales last year……..who knows indeed. 🙄
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Goodstich, please reread my post. You have taken it completely out of context.
I believe that to generalise that every lawyer, builder, mayor etc in Spain is corrupt is not mearly “silly” but morally wrong.However we all have a duty to warn any prospective buyer in Spain where, and by whom, we personally know the system to be corrupt or flawed, and to do that ethically we can only speak as we find or direct folk to the appropriate links.
Certainly I believe it a disgrace that those who entered into contracts, whether in UK or Spain, have been duped not just by the corruption in their chose locale but by lawyers who have taken more money to fight court cases they knew had little chance of success.Having unfortunately tested the long winded County Court route in UK I have no desire to attempt such here but do have a Spanish friend who took the litigation route against his builder.It was in Barcelona. Case and judgment (for) resolved within weeks.
Whether or not that was because he is Spanish or the Barcelona court system more efficient I have no idea.
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It does rather beggar belief that someone like Claire who has contributed so much for years to this forum has now been blocked!
I’m totally convinced that she and others have helped many people avoid the trap of buying property from dodgy and crooked dealers in Spain whilst helping them with how to beat the lengthy Court procedures too by not giving in.
Why is she blocked Mark?
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@goodstich44 wrote:
flosmichael
the time it takes to get issues resolved means that details on property bought years ago are still to be resolved in many cases, so ‘very negative’
posts are still very relevant sadly.I agree, but for the moment being the only people who might buy in Spain are the seasoned buyers who check every single line on the contracts…
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@goodstich44 wrote:
pj said
”As soon as the exchange rate improves (which it is doing right now) UK tourists will come back and spend money.”
yeah, right …..and all the problems will just melt away as though they had never happened!!!
I think we all agree that the problems for you will never melt away, sadly this may well have blighted the rest of your life. Just ensure that it doest damage those around you.
There are those of us who have suffered equally damaging financial situations and indeed far worse situations are being endured by many.
Particularly those in the Albox area.
Focus on whats good in your life and remember those around you.
Life does throw out the odd challenge now and again and losing a sum of money can never be equal to losing a loved one.
There are many seemingly unjust happenings to be dealt with, being made redundant, unable to find a job, losing a relationship, etc etc.
Hope you can find peace somewhere and maybe learn something from every one of lifes challenges.
Remember we are all different and dont let things destroy what you hold dear. -
vilprano
thanks for your concern, but don’t worry, this episode in Spain certainly hasn’t blighted the rest of my life. Losing a close relative last year put the Spanish nightmare in to perspective. For me, it’s more a case of warning others and doing what’s possible to make a dreadful system pay for it’s many mistakes and hurt that it’s caused, and by trying to make sure that those responsible have a rough ride, while those wronged get justice. A tall order indeed, but if we all do what we can…….
I have peace in my life, in the form of a loving family and freinds and probably suprisingly? the self discipline of long distance running and raising money for charities through that, (doing the London Marathon this year for the third time). Also from the help and support on this and similar forums. I am indeed very grateful for the good things I have, and take little for granted these days. As for learning something?, no doubt about that!!
Melosine
I don’t believe I took your post out of context, and I think we are saying much the same, though perhaps from a slightly different angle?.
Litigation sorted in weeks though…..in Spain……is this some sort of record?whooops, musn’t generalise!
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@pj wrote:
So what should everyone do? Don’t buy anywhere other than your home country because you are doomed to failure and a life of misery.
There are many reasons people want to buy a property overseas and although at one time investment was a large part of it there are still lots of good reasons to consider Spain.
DON’T buy if the only reason is to make money on your property.
If you do however want good weather, nice people, great food and a decent quality of life then Spain could still be for you.
Right now tourism is at an all time low and there are shops, hotels, bars and restaurants closing at an astonishing rate. But how is tourism in other European countries? How is tourism in Dubai? How about Brazil?
As soon as the exchange rate improves (which it is doing right now) UK tourists will come back and spend money.
Tourisim figures for Spain have been dropping for a few years. long before the credit crunch. I read last week that Spain received 3 million less tourists in 2008. For the past few years the numbers of Golfers coming out in winter has fallen, partly because of the greed and off-hand treatment by the Golf clubs. The CDS prices are a joke.
The exchange rate was the final nail. Maybe if prices and decent service had remained then tourists would have continued despite the poor rate. (before anyone steps in to say this is not true, the spanish are saying the same on their forums).
As for other tourist destinations…who knows. Can’t see Dubai ever appealing to the masses, I didn’t like it and most drinks were around £8-10. Despite all the gloom coming out of the USA the malls and restaurants are full in Florida (well the part I was in). There are also more visitors from Northern Europe now. The Andalucian Tourist board has been coming under criticism recently by Spaniards as to their promotion skills, is is claimed they are focusing too much on flamenco and Tapas!
Our cruise beginning the week after Christmas was overbooked, we were offered a refund and 50% off another cruise. According to a cruise forum others had been contacted too. Both our flights from the UK were completely full. Flights UK to Kenya were full last year and we never travel main holiday peaks.
If people aren’t choosing Spain for their holiday they are unlikely to be buying property
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@katy wrote:
. Despite all the gloom coming out of the USA the malls and restaurants are full in Florida (well the part I was in). There are also more visitors from Northern Europe now. The Andalucian Tourist board has been coming under criticism recently by Spaniards as to their promotion skills, is is claimed they are focusing too much on flamenco and Tapas!
Our cruise beginning the week after Christmas was overbooked, we were offered a refund and 50% off another cruise. According to a cruise forum others had been contacted too. Both our flights from the UK were completely full. Flights UK to Kenya were full last year and we never travel main holiday peaks.
If people aren’t choosing Spain for their holiday they are unlikely to be buying property
As money become sparce, people will go to the cheapest overall destination for their holidays. In 2010 there is no cheaper destination with good weather than Spain.
£1000 for a family of four for 2 weeks including car/beachfront apartment rental + food+ flights in July-August cannot be beaten.Of course buying is a total different issue.
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As money become sparce, people will go to the cheapest overall destination for their holidays. In 2010 there is no cheaper destination with good weather than Spain.
£1000 for a family of four for 2 weeks including car/beachfront apartment rental + food+ flights in July-August cannot be beaten.Last summer many people that had booked cars months previously arrived to find there was no car for them, or prices had been increased by some ridiculous amount. You’d have been lucky to get a car for 2 weeks in the summer for half of that £1,000. There’s a huge shortage of cars, banks aren’t lending, nobody can replace/add to their fleet, so during the busy times there will again be chaos. I simply refused to pay the prices they were asking, so instead of spending an average 10-12 weeks a year there, we spent 2 weeks. I seriously doubt you will get all you are saying for £1,000, I think you’d struggle to get flights and a car for that money. in July/Aug
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@agoreira wrote:
There’s a huge shortage of cars, banks aren’t lending, nobody can replace/add to their fleet, so during the busy times there will again be chaos. I simply refused to pay the prices they were asking, so instead of spending an average 10-12 weeks a year there, we spent 2 weeks. I seriously doubt you will get all you are saying for £1,000, I think you’d struggle to get flights and a car for that money. in July/Aug
I made the reservations in December:
– £160 for 4 return tickets to Alicante
– £400 (after quite serious bargaining) for 2 weeks in 2 bedroom apt. in Jandia
– £290 for car rental for 2 weeksI always buy food from supermarkets so I dod not expect to pay more than £120/week for food.
So OK, you are right, it is not £1000 but about £1100 plus petrol plus AP7 fees.
Can anybody tell me any other place in the world (with Sun and sea) where you can go for that amount of money? One of course needs to arrange much in advance to get the best prices…
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Charlie, I think it’s your computer. I don’t’ have that problem.
Whilst I’m here, let me just return to the original topic to clarify something
Some people in this forum are highly critical of Spain, but they do it in a thoughtful and interesting way. They add value to this forum, and will always be welcome, even if I strongly disagree with them. A few others are critical but in a repetitive and boring way. Not so welcome. It’s not really about “positive” or “negative”. It’s about the quality of ideas and expression.
Mark
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mark
I hear what you are saying, but I think we have to face up to the fact that many problems are still ongoing, despite much cry for change. Do we just ignore the rot bacause it only effects a percentage?, or do we keep it ‘top drawer’ because until urgent changes are made then not much is likely to be ‘positive’ for all those wronged and much of the idustry for that matter?
Of course every thread shouldn’t keep banging on about the negative issues, but if some posts within a thread refer to related problems then stopping them or the contributor is not really showing a balanced thread.
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goodstich:
I think one way forward here is to concentrate on educating potential buyers of the pitfalls but also showing that it is possible to buy safely in Spain.
I very nearly bought at Almanzora Country Club through Parador. I wasn’t happy with Parador pushing me to use their local lawyer so I used a UK based firm, who told me over 5 years ago that there were no licenses in place. I hadn’t, at that stage, even put down my 3000 euro deposit. I know many others however who did sign & pay, & some have paid in excess of £50,000. Why was my lawyer able to find the information out within a couple of days of me getting back from Spain & yet local lawyers apparantly didn’t know for another 3 years?
We also need to find a way of getting the Spanish to understand the problem, & at least on the Costa Blanca they are starting to understand the damage that has been done. They see the consequences every day in unfinished developments, virtually deserted towns & job losses.
I know with my own property that I’m going to have a problem selling because of the number of properties on the market & the lack of buyers. Fortunately I don’t want to or need to sell, but who knows however what my position will be in 6 months.
I agree with most of your comments but I do think we have find a way of showing both the negative aspects as well as the positives.
I also think that for Brits, we need to get away from any kind of ‘investment’ aspect for Spanish property.
This forum needs people who have seen both the best & worse of buying Spanish property. We need to educate others.
We also need to find some way of getting away from the ‘luck’ aspect of buying in Spain. Buyers must be able to depend on their lawyers, which they can’t at the moment. How that is achieved however, I haven’t got a clue!
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Whilst I understand why many posters continue concentrating on fraud and corruption that happened in the previous decade, especially those effected by it.
I believe the advice of always appointing a independent lawyer and the almost total decline in buying off plan means this subject has probably been done to death.My first piece of advice to new purchasers from 2010 and beyond would be to check out how is the community is run especially to do with its finances.
I believe that many communities will fail in the not too distant future with disastrous consequences for the owners.Unsold and unoccupied properties and delinquent payers in many urbanisations is already a problem and most potential buyers are not aware of it.
The only options for these urbinisations is to get an embargo against delinquent payers which takes forever or raise the fees of all the other owners to pay the bills.
Guess which option will happen first. -
@GJ wrote:
My first piece of advice to new purchasers from 2010 and beyond would be to check out how is the community is run especially to do with its finances.
I believe that many communities will fail in the not too distant future with disastrous consequences for the owners.Unsold and unoccupied properties and delinquent payers in many urbanisations is already a problem and most potential buyers are not aware of it.
.Exactly.
Look at USA, there are many communities with 10% owner-occupiers and other properties in decomposing form.
Where I have been in Riviera del Sol , 40% of the owners had community fees debts, some of them had not paid for 18 months or more.
In my opinion, the best is to buy either in a detached property (the expensive way) or in a block of flats with no pool or gardens with Spanish owners(the cheaper way).
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rob6578
good post and yes, I have no argument with what you are saying. We have to look at the good and bad to get some sort of balance.. I feel though, by far the most pressing issues are those that are hurting people now!. Once action is taken to help them, then hopefully there will be far more ‘positive’ posts from those on all sides, and the whole industry will benefit.
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Most detached properties have urbanisation fees too (unless way out in the campo). Ours are around 800 euro per year. What do we get for it…not a lot. What we pay for are utilities that Marbella council and the utility companies should be paying. Our community fees cover the cost of street lighting even though these are normal public roads, street sweeping etc. and maintaining the gardens etc. on roundabouts. This would be fine but we still have to pay council taxes too of over a 1000 euro 👿
In addition to this, the Urbanisation is in need of all the infrastructure replacing as it was started in the late70’s early 80’s. The cost of this falls on the property owners (you couldn’t make it up could you 🙄 ). Our community is in negotiations with marbella council who (I think) are quoting a figure around 100 million euro!. This worked out on the ratio of land owned be each house would mean a bill of around 13,000 euro for my property. The smallest property on the Urb. would be 7,000. The same thing is happening on another marbella urbanisation and I have heard of one in Valencia region so it seems to be the new cash cow for the councils. No doubt there are many more affected too.
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@katy wrote:
Most detached properties have urbanisation fees too (unless way out in the campo). Ours are around 800 euro per year. What do we get for it…not a lot. What we pay for are utilities that Marbella council and the utility companies should be paying. Our community fees cover the cost of street lighting even though these are normal public roads, street sweeping etc. and maintaining the gardens etc. on roundabouts. This would be fine but we still have to pay council taxes too of over a 1000 euro 👿
In addition to this, the Urbanisation is in need of all the infrastructure replacing as it was started in the late70’s early 80’s. The cost of this falls on the property owners (you couldn’t make it up could you 🙄 ). Our community is in negotiations with marbella council who (I think) are quoting a figure around 100 million euro!. This worked out on the ratio of land owned be each house would mean a bill of around 13,000 euro for my property. The smallest property on the Urb. would be 7,000. The same thing is happening on another marbella urbanisation and I have heard of one in Valencia region so it seems to be the new cash cow for the councils. No doubt there are many more affected too.
OK then block of flats with no pool or gardens with Spanish owners it is…
Of course nobody would rent for holidats there but it might be warmer over the winter if the neighbors heat their apartments… -
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GJ wrote:
“The only options for these urbinisations is to get an embargo against delinquent payers which takes forever or raise the fees of all the other owners to pay the bills.
Guess which option will happen first.”The 100% option will be EMBARGO,…it’s the most simple and fair option.
The Spanish laws are very clear about this subject,…and in few months the problem is solved. -
GJ wrote:
“The only options for these urbinisations is to get an embargo against delinquent payers which takes forever or raise the fees of all the other owners to pay the bills.
Guess which option will happen first.”The 100% option will be EMBARGO,…it’s the most simple and fair option.
The Spanish laws are very clear about this subject,…and in few months the problem is solved. -
Flosmichael wrote:
“OK then block of flats with no pool or gardens with Spanish owners it is...”Well,…That look quite a xenophobic point,…as so many times, why you speak without any DATA?,…you should buy where ever you want,…I don’t care….You are old enough to make as many mistakes as you wish,…Let me said to you that I don’t like to correct your sentences,…Why should I?,…you looks to know always better,…but in a very strange INTUITIVE way,…that’s perfect and I don’t want to disturb that magic connection with the Spanish reality!!!
But in this case I will not let that you will wrong any other person,….I bet you are wrong 100%,…Spaniards as every nationality always try to pay the feeds for the reason that they know the Spanish laws (Ley the propiedad horizontal),…and they are very strict about that question.
I don’t know of any case of communal feeds that hasn’t been paid,…for obvious reasons.PD- Let me add, that with your mentality you will not became very popular between your Spaniards neighbors,…so in your case 100% you should buy with no Spanish neighbor owners many miles around.
Regards. -
Flosmichael wrote:
“OK then block of flats with no pool or gardens with Spanish owners it is...”Well,…That look quite a xenophobic point,…as so many times, why you speak without any DATA?,…you should buy where ever you want,…I don’t care….You are old enough to make as many mistakes as you wish,…Let me said to you that I don’t like to correct your sentences,…Why should I?,…you looks to know always better,…but in a very strange INTUITIVE way,…that’s perfect and I don’t want to disturb that magic connection with the Spanish reality!!!
But in this case I will not let that you will wrong any other person,….I bet you are wrong 100%,…Spaniards as every nationality always try to pay the feeds for the reason that they know the Spanish laws (Ley the propiedad horizontal),…and they are very strict about that question.
I don’t know of any case of communal feeds that hasn’t been paid,…for obvious reasons.PD- Let me add, that with your mentality you will not became very popular between your Spaniards neighbors,…so in your case 100% you should buy with no Spanish neighbor owners many miles around.
Regards. -
To 66d35:
I liked your posts,…liked the photograps…and liked your interest about botanic.
I don’t know if you know “Mont Frague” a national park North of Extremadura, it have a very well preserved Mediterranean forest (different Quercus, Laurus,..)…in spring will be beautiful, …if you go don’t lost the cherry flowers of the near valleys (early spring).(The Jerte valley is quite famous for the cherry flowers, and is quite popular for the Japanese tourists. Gredos, quite near, is as well quite interesting.)
Regards. -
To 66d35:
I liked your posts,…liked the photograps…and liked your interest about botanic.
I don’t know if you know “Mont Frague” a national park North of Extremadura, it have a very well preserved Mediterranean forest (different Quercus, Laurus,..)…in spring will be beautiful, …if you go don’t lost the cherry flowers of the near valleys (early spring).(The Jerte valley is quite famous for the cherry flowers, and is quite popular for the Japanese tourists. Gredos, quite near, is as well quite interesting.)
Regards. -
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Great to hear from you alanrthornton !!!.
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Great to hear from you alanrthornton !!!.
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@tree wrote:
Flosmichael wrote:
“OK then block of flats with no pool or gardens with Spanish owners it is...”Well,…That look quite a xenophobic point,…as so many times, why you speak without any DATA?,…you should buy where ever you want,…I don’t care….You are old enough to make as many mistakes as you wish,…Let me said to you that I don’t like to correct your sentences,…Why should I?,…you looks to know always better,…but in a very strange INTUITIVE way,…that’s perfect and I don’t want to disturb that magic connection with the Spanish reality!!!
But in this case I will not let that you will wrong any other person,….I bet you are wrong 100%,…Spaniards as every nationality always try to pay the feeds for the reason that they know the Spanish laws (Ley the propiedad horizontal),…and they are very strict about that question.
I don’t know of any case of communal feeds that hasn’t been paid,…for obvious reasons.PD- Let me add, that with your mentality you will not became very popular between your Spaniards neighbors,…so in your case 100% you should buy with no Spanish neighbor owners many miles around.
Regards.Why henophobic?
I would very much prefer Spanish owners because they might use the apartment as a home not as an holiday retreat which they use couple of times per year.
I had very good relations with all the Spanish neighbors everywhere I went. Don’t judge people from what you discuss with them on internet forums…
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@tree wrote:
Flosmichael wrote:
“OK then block of flats with no pool or gardens with Spanish owners it is...”Well,…That look quite a xenophobic point,…as so many times, why you speak without any DATA?,…you should buy where ever you want,…I don’t care….You are old enough to make as many mistakes as you wish,…Let me said to you that I don’t like to correct your sentences,…Why should I?,…you looks to know always better,…but in a very strange INTUITIVE way,…that’s perfect and I don’t want to disturb that magic connection with the Spanish reality!!!
But in this case I will not let that you will wrong any other person,….I bet you are wrong 100%,…Spaniards as every nationality always try to pay the feeds for the reason that they know the Spanish laws (Ley the propiedad horizontal),…and they are very strict about that question.
I don’t know of any case of communal feeds that hasn’t been paid,…for obvious reasons.PD- Let me add, that with your mentality you will not became very popular between your Spaniards neighbors,…so in your case 100% you should buy with no Spanish neighbor owners many miles around.
Regards.Why henophobic?
I would very much prefer Spanish owners because they might use the apartment as a home not as an holiday retreat which they use couple of times per year.
I had very good relations with all the Spanish neighbors everywhere I went. Don’t judge people from what you discuss with them on internet forums…
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Flosmichael wrote:
Don’t judge people from what you discuss with them on internet forums…Sorry flosmichael, you are true, could be that I didn’t judge you well…it’s just that I have read many of your posts,… it always have been a mystery to me why you speak so badly about Spain but at the same time is looking to buy.
Every body make mistakes and I will be happy (sincerely happy) to realize that my judgment about you was wrong.
Regards. -
Flosmichael wrote:
Don’t judge people from what you discuss with them on internet forums…Sorry flosmichael, you are true, could be that I didn’t judge you well…it’s just that I have read many of your posts,… it always have been a mystery to me why you speak so badly about Spain but at the same time is looking to buy.
Every body make mistakes and I will be happy (sincerely happy) to realize that my judgment about you was wrong.
Regards. -
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Mark I admire your attempts to bring some balance to the forums but fear that it is perhaps a vien effort. In the past when I tried to start a positive thread it is hijacked by the bigotry of a few who seem unable to allow others to share their positive experience, humour them mark and try to sympathise with them understanding how unbearable it must be living life full of suspicion, anger and hatred, with their meaning in life prowling the forums looking for the dreams of another poster tp leave ruined in shreds, often initialy posing as a freindly ally but all the time circaling like a vulture ready to devour his victim at the first sign of weakness (sorry was that a bit over the top) Poll
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I don’t post more than a sentence these days because nobody is intrested in positive posts, I am two busy and happy to respond to all the negative tripe in any depth.
Life goes on, make the best of it, Villaprano has lost more than Goodstich for example but he is still positive and starting again, this however should not stop people being warned of sharp practices!
The thing is if Goodstich and his fellow ‘keep going over old ground’ gang were given there own thread they wouldn’t keep to it beacuase a) nobody would contribute much and b) they just have to hijack the threads where the majority where (are) posting
Steve
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ohhhhh people like me 🙁 your sounding a bit like Nicholas Winterton. Yes Katy I was an Estate Agent and Now I am a Financial Advisor pray tell what kind of person does that make me becuase I am obviously in your eyes not the type of person that I, my family, my employer and my clients think I am, but hey ho “frankly my dear I dont give a damn” the opinion about me from people I know matter to me, your opinion of me means little, you dont know me from adam but are happy to fit me into your narrow minded profile of “people like me”, Its no wonder the Spainsh hold such opinions about us as a nation “it says it all really”
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I’m going to be making some cosmetic changes to this forum, allowing you to use avatars, that sort of thing. Keeping the focus on quality content, but making the presentation a bit more fun.
If you want to use an avatar you can, just fix it at your profile page. For the moment you have to use an off-site avatar, that means an image or animation hosted on some other server.
Here’s a question for you.
This forum has very few sub-forums, because I tend to like everything in one place, and don’t like having to check dozens of sub-forums (lazy). But maybe what I want is not what others want. There is no limit to how many sub-forums you can have; I could set up forums for every region, for landlords, DIY, vendors that sort of thing. Is that what people want, or keep it simple like it is?
Angie, would you like a sub-forum called ‘The pitfalls’?
Mark
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My vote is to keep it as it is. If you do loads of sub forums ,it would be the same as …am I allowed to say …EyeonSpain.
Presumption: I saw a post from you on there (?) and I’m guessing you had a good look around?? 😉
Personally, I like the difference between these two forums. The “development forums ” are very useful on EOS for people who are affected by problems though. I think if you change it, you would need to be a full time moderator as Justin is. Again on a personal note, I do not like Avatars although your piccie is delightful! 🙂 . -
I think it works as it is. Most of the other subs on here are rarely used such as “settling in” forum. There are a couple of other forums…Viva almeria and viva malaga that have lots of sub-forums and some haven’t had a post for months. It is so boring going through them. Eye on Spain is full of people fishing for business.
Suppose you may know I post on A.com. Quite a few subs but for the past year or more most of them don’t get many posts. The forum has become more negative over the last year or so.
I realise most won’t agree with me, they want the negative stuff popped in a sticky or something. May not always be so but right now what other subjects are they going to post about. People have had their chance to post about the positive eg. why are you going or staying, not many said 😕 Perhaps an off-topic one might work where posters could get to know one another better.
Please don’t give us any links to el cheapo furniture packages though 😉 😆
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Katie wrote
I realise most won’t agree with me, they want the negative stuff popped in a sticky or something. May not always be so but right now what other subjects are they going to post about. People have had their chance to post about the positive eg. why are you going or staying, not many said 😕 Perhaps an off-topic one might work where posters could get to know one another better.
End quote
Well I for one do agree with all of this Katie and believe that subs end up being ignored
An off topic thread might work.However the problem is lack of forum protocol by some posters. It is not OK to post their thoughts on any subject on any thread regardless of its topic.
I would simply ask those responsible to find a relevant thread or start a new one.
By the way I was amazed how the thread re worst place on Spanish Coast has stayed on topic 😀 😀 😀
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Mark,
This is what happens when one “assumes” things! Apologies. 😳
You posted here that you wanted to hear from anyone who had experience of being chased in the UK by Spanish Banks for bad debt. At around the same time someone posted a new thread on EOS on the same topic.http://www.eyeonspain.com/forums/posts-long-10028.aspx
Having looked again this morning I have seen a further post by said person, and it appears they maybe a possible “victim”.
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logan wrote:I think the only useful sub-forum would be a regional one. It would encourage views, news and opinions relative to a local area of interest.
A good idea but generally people are only interested in the CDS and CB.
javascript:emoticon(‘:(‘)
I like the idea of avatars though….
javascript:emoticon(‘:D’)
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Must admit I like it the way it is, using avatars is fine, if you don’t want one you don’t have one etc, the other sub forums get little use so don’t think there’s a need for more but as Logan said a regional sub-forum would be a good idea but as already been said it mostly seams to be the CDS and CB so maybe no need
This is the only forum I have ever posted on and together with EOS is the only one I ever read these days, I think SPI has a “quality” feel over the others
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Mark, IMO a sub-forum on ‘pitfalls’ would be fine, however the main point is just to have somewhere easily accessible here regarding ‘Pitfalls of Buying in Spain’ with maybe some of our experiences or ‘watch out for’ points.
Anything would just help warn potential buyers as well as stop repetition please! 😛
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