- This topic has 204 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 10 months ago by
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This is to warn anyone thinking of buying off-plan in Spain.
Example:
Someone visits one of the often mentioned unscrupulous estate agents who operate in Spain and now other countries.
This person is looking at off-plan property advertised for 400k euros.
It includes agent’s commission of 10% (could well be double that), so the property is actually valued at approx 360K euros.
Completion costs will add approx 44k euros to the 400k euros, so purchase price is approx 444k for something worth 360k. Then add interest lost on your 60-70% stage payments, probably another 10-15k euros, now you’re up to 470k plus your transfer costs, plus Sterling is poor against euros.
So if you needed to sell to break even, the same property would then have to be sold for about 520k euros to cover the agent’s commission, for a property originally valued at 360k and in a falling market as well.
Who wins? The estate agents and the Spanish Government, and the Forex dealers in the money market!!!!!
Just my opinion though, but buying in Eurozone now, is a sure-fire way of doing your dough!
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If you buy like that in the current market then your asking for trouble.
People still want to buy nice places to live in Spain and you have the English thing of wanting to own your own property.
I have advise family to come over and rent before buying (which is good advice to anyone looking to move to Spain) but they want to own their own home in Spain.
However when they buy they will be buying at no more than 2200 euros psn and not looking to sell in a hurry and probably wouldnt be involved in the scenario you just talked about.
I obviously feel sorry for people who did get involved in buying at the very top of the cycle and have friends who bought at 280k and now have negative equity here in Spain and they are people who have lived here for years.
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Paul
well done for pointing that out. If it stops one person being shafted, it’s more than worth the effort.
also, to add to your list, there is quite a large chance that your off-plan purchase will not match details in your contract, if indeed it turns out to be legal?. Any system with common sense would say ‘that’s a breach of contract, don’t complete’….not Spain though, you are very likely to end up with a long and costly court case, despite your case being black and white.
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@goodstich44 wrote:
Paul
well done for pointing that out. If it stops one person being shafted, it’s more than worth the effort.
also, to add to your list, there is quite a large chance that your off-plan purchase will not match details in your contract, if indeed it turns out to be legal?. Any system with common sense would say ‘that’s a breach of contract, don’t complete’….not Spain though, you are very likely to end up with a long and costly court case, despite your case being black and white.
funnily enough this situation came up yesterday. Someone who bought an off-plan through another agency (one of the popular ones on this site). And the agency was kind enough to recommend their in-house lawyers to then. Anyway what bothered me, was that attached to the private contract there was some promotional information attached signed by the lawyer and the promoter. As if showing “this shows what you get” even though at the bottom of the information ins states that this information is based on the ‘pre-project’ subject to changes, etc…
IF you decide to buy an off-plan, have a updated copy of the DIA attached to the contract for both the development and the actual unit you are buying! -
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@Senor Nick wrote:
I have advise family to come over and rent before buying (which is good advice to anyone looking to move to Spain) but they want to own their own home in Spain.
This is/was called instant gratification. They do/did the same with new cars, shining
plasma TVs and other junk that was bought on credit which is now not available anymore.Soon people will start learning that dreams are dreams and reality is somehting different.
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@goodstich44 wrote:
Fuengi
that sounds like good sense if it’s ‘watertight’? Without something like that, the contract’s hardly worth the paper it’s written on!
and that’s pretty much what i had to tell them. But I recommended a lawyer, to talk too to see if there were any loopholes or anything else they could get the agency/developer on.
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Thanks Goodstich, Fuengi et al who agree, I thought this might be a bit controversial and get slated by some of the naughty agents who post.
As you quite rightly say, even what you buy off-plan, will almost definitely not match the artist impression nor the original specification that the mis-selling agent/developer gave you in order to grab your deposit. Beware of their ‘in bed’ recommended lawyer too!
The example I gave was based on a 10% commission included by an agent, however we all know this is often much higher, even as high as 30% in the Ocean Estates heyday on new builds.
More often or not, the client makes no profit, even loses the majority of their money in this market, but not the greedy Estate Agent, Developer and Spanish Gov’t.
Buy off-plan with stage payments, a recipe for disaster, you ‘Will do your Money!!!!’ 😉
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Paul wrote
”Beware of their ‘in bed’ recommended lawyer too! ”
oh yes indeed! Back in 2002, the previous experience we had had with lawyers was at least good, if costly. House purchases, car accidents, wills etc. We didn’t trust agents, but we thought that lawyers were on our side if we were paying them……WRONG!! We wern’t forced to use the agents Ocean ****s UK lawyers, but they seemed as good a bet as any, as Spanish property was their field (it certainly was!)
When they transfered us to a Spanish lawyer, we thought why not? We assumed commision was the name of the game, but that was ok, business is business etc. Lawyers have to have a strict code of conduct, so we will be ok….WRONG!
What we couldn’t have dreamed of was that we were going to be shafted by the UK agent, the UK lawyer, the Spanish lawyer and the developer, and despite that, we would still be fighting for justice at the end of 2008.
If our story was made in to a movie, people would probably say ”how far fetched, how could anyone be treated that way and not get justice in our fair land?
How many others i wonder in similar or worse positions than us? There is at least still a chance we will get justice, but that will depend on an honest judge using common sense in Spain?
It will be 7 years in June since we put our deposit down with Ocean ***w
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Goodstitch, some years ago I would have thought the same about Lawyers in Spain and would have used any 😯 Interestingly, the amount of Lawyers in Marbella increased at the same time as the growth in Agents.
We sold a property in 2000 and our long time Lawyer had just retired so we went ahead with the Agent’s Lawyer and assumed that all Lawyers charged the same…the bill was a whopping 1.5% 😈 Everything else was ok as we were only selling so not as drastic as what has happened to some on this forum
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Some of those recommended lawyers were a b—-y nightmare, now I remember 3 firms recommended by Ocean Estates, one was heavily involved in the White Whale money laundering scam and sent to jail for a while, one was Pablo Andersons, also not trustworthy, and Pablo offering to go into free investor partnership with clients for a 50/50 cut of any profit, and our old favourites DLM who had changed their name 3 times as the going got tough.
Of course when the client became nervy, what did these lawyers do? Side with the Developer and Ocean Estates and start pressurising the client to complete even when things were not in order, in a menacing way too.
They were complicit in purchasers losing chunks of their money in overpriced, over-commissioned Development often without Building Licences or LFO’s.
Scammers all 😡
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Goodsitch posted.
“If our story was made in to a movie, people would probably say ”how far fetched, how could anyone be treated that way and not get justice in our fair land? “
Some may say buyer beware and making money on property involves a gamble the same as any other money making venture and in particular in someone elses country.
Just Frank 8)
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@Just Frank wrote:
Goodsitch posted.
“If our story was made in to a movie, people would probably say ”how far fetched, how could anyone be treated that way and not get justice in our fair land? “
Some may say buyer beware and making money on property involves a gamble the same as any other money making venture and in particular in someone elses country.
Just Frank 8)
The fact is and as Frank has highlighted and i’m sure in many ways as Goodstich has realised is buying offplan in Spain, in fact any foreign country is concerned is highly risky.
In these times, with the current climate, even more risky.
When massive (ish) sums of money are involved people will get greedy and rip you off, especially in ‘offplan buy a picture and look at the hole in the ground’ world.
To those who think it won’t happen or someone will protect you, go home put your money in a (safe) bank account watch tv for next umpeenth years and forget about buying property as its not for you.
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Mary
we always knew it was a risk from a point of view of agent bull s*it and market forces, and we accepted that from the start. What we don’t accept and never will, are lies and dishonesty from those in a position of legal trust. We all have to sign legal forms, contracts etc, and agree to conditions. Unless we are lawyers ourselves we all have to pay a proffesional to work on our behalf at some stage in the buying process. In any kind of acceptable system by the nature of their work, we have to know these people in a position of trust are doing the decent thing, otherwise it makes a mockery of the whole process. (as has often been the case in land grabs, demolitions, corruption overbuilds etc)
If the justice came down heavy on those in the wrong, and compensated those in the right, which is the only way in any kind of decent system, then this farce wouldn’t exist for us and many others. Of course sharks and low-life will prosper in any position if allowed to do so by those who should be keeping them in check.
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They say ‘hindsight is a wonderful thing’, the trouble is Mary, that so many people were taken in by crooked agents and developers, helped by their lawyers. It’s this lot who lied and deceived people into buying off-plan, and growth forecasts, and sold illegal properties etc.
Most people had a dream to live somewhere warm, safe, inexpensive, with views that would never be taken away, all the things that the agents said when selling the properties, and all for the greedy agents’s fat commissions.
When Ocean Estates were raking in sometimes 30% commissions with their sales staff copping 5-10% of that, it was their greed which fueled the lies.
Then their Directors carried on pocketing millions over the years and didn’t give a sh1te about their purchasers, and the Spanish Gov’t did Nothing about it because they too are guilty of greed. 🙄
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@goodstich44 wrote:
Mary
we always knew it was a risk from a point of view of agent bull s*it and market forces, and we accepted that from the start. What we don’t accept and never will, are lies and dishonesty from those in a position of legal trust. We all have to sign legal forms, contracts etc, and agree to conditions. Unless we are lawyers ourselves we all have to pay a proffesional to work on our behalf at some stage in the buying process. In any kind of acceptable system by the nature of their work, we have to know these people in a position of trust are doing the decent thing, otherwise it makes a mockery of the whole process. (as has often been the case in land grabs, demolitions, corruption overbuilds etc)
If the justice came down heavy on those in the wrong, and compensated those in the right, which is the only way in any kind of decent system, then this farce wouldn’t exist for us and many others. Of course sharks and low-life will prosper in any position if allowed to do so by those who should be keeping them in check.
Unfortunately Goodstitch and I am honestly sympathetic, having spent the last 15 years ‘in business’ I knew after couple of years of dealing with ‘business people’, banks, solicitors, accountants etc, it all boils to money and they are all largely the same, money talks pure and simple, ethics are out the window and that applies almost to most situations.
The off-plan foreign property growth probably allowed certain people to take it to a new level, by the very nature of the beast.
That said you have to learn from your experiences and move on, easier to do principle, more difficult to do in practice. The off plan market has now largely caved in on itself i would have thought, ok there will be still be people drawn into it, but it does somewhat appear to be a dead duck as far as future buying decisions for many, or should be anyway.
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Mary Hinge
yes, i think off-plan is a dead duck now. I don’t think it had to be that way though?
As you say, money talks, and for that reason, strict regulation to keep corruption under control is vital for any system to work properly, and has failed miserably in Spain.
Thankfully, this is out in open these days, and i feel the ball is in the Spanish court. They either carry on ignoring corruption, regulation and justice and collapse further (most likely i think), or they clean up their act and shout about it to the world, so people feel they can trust the basics of right and wrong. Our UK system is a long way from perfect, but it’s way way ahead of Spain on common sense and justice.
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Off-plan in Spain only worked for about an 18 month snapshot when there was not enough properties to supply demand. After that it became a form of pyramid selling. Everyone wanted a part of the action, but no-one wanted to buy a resale as they (thought wrongly) would be able to cash in on their 30% profit 🙄 Even without all the corruption and shoddy builds it couldn’t last.
Buying off-plan is buying a dream, nothing can live up to those glossy brochures. We once bought off-plan in the UK, nothing actually wrong with it (and we made a good profit) but I was very disappointed with the overall finish when compared with the brochure.
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katy
the first A*fos development we bought in to, (balcones de riviera) never did get a building license! We were told however after about 18 months by the UK agents Ocean ***W, that the building was well under way and knee high. Another person local to us who also bought in to it, went over to have a look at progress. Guess what?, not a brick laid, nothing even started, just a bare piece of land!
Nothings to low for those agents/developers or the UK and Spanish lawyers they use!
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Charlie, I think stage payments should be a thing of the past, we don’t pay them on UK property as Developers fund the build themselves, not the purchaser.
Stage payments are just another disguised scam IMO, with Promoters setting themselves up as builder/developer.
The sooner people walk away from stage payment Development the better, sooner or later it would change to a 10% down with balance on completion giving far better protection to purchasers instead of Developers.
Once you’ve paid maybe 60-70% stage payments and the specification, views and build quality don’t match up, it’s much harder to withdraw from completion, or, get all your money back quickly.
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Goodstich44
You posted
Our UK system is a long way from perfect, but it’s way way ahead of Spain on common sense and justice.In some ways there is far more common sence in the Spanish legal system than ours however with regards to the property sector the rules are their but they are simply abused.
In time Spain will have to put measures in to protect however what should be understood is that the system is newly developed compared to ours.
Perhaps before the blame is put on the Spanish you should take into account that almost 100% of your problems related to a U.K company.
No one made you sign and you fell for the 30% down and the 15% capital growth on the 100% value with projected rentals that were never ever going to be achieved with the level of building.
You signed like most others because your opinion was that you were onto a good thing.
Sadly your U.K company screwed you and many others so perhaps lets not have the U.K system as being some guardian angel.
That lot would have screwed you here or anywhere and there is nothing you would have been able to do about it.
Good luck with your fight for justice but why not go after the ones that took you in the first place.
What I can see of it your case appears lost anyway and like many of us one day we may have to accept that like it or not.Just Frank 8)
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Just Frank
I wrote….. ‘Nothings to low for those agents/developers or the UK and Spanish lawyers they use!
if you concentrate on the post, you will notice i’m talking about the UK agents and UK lawyers as well as the Spanish.
the developers ended up withour money. They are one’s we have to chase first.
‘that lot’ as you put it, would not have screwed us anywhere. They get away with it due to the crap system in Spain of huge deposit/stage payment and lack of regulation, neither which we have in the UK. That in itself would be ok if many of the lawyers in Spain were not as bent as the agents/developers, and do very little to stop corruption. Again, something not often found in the UK. To add to that when the low-life do come up against the courts, justice is either non existant or hopelesly slow. You should know that by now!!
it’s true that nobody forced us to sign, and we chose to go with the system of purchase, but as any contract anywhere states, both parties form a legal agreement, and we pay people to check all is well. If they are con men as well, you are stuffed, and only have the feeble Spanish legal system to fall back on.
Our case is far from lost. Thanks for wishing us good luck. I realise through your many posts that you would have given up long ago. Not us.
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Goodstich44
Nope never have suggested that I would give up but there again perhaps as I have a 100% Bank Guarantee in place paid by me and the developer is financially strong then I would never give up while I feel I have a chance.
Everyone must make similar calculations depending on their case.
Yep lawyers were or are corrupt and little different from the U.K given half a chance.
Spain have their laws and thats the law of their country and much of it is very good.basic and effective.
Corruption through developers lawyers and courts is a cancer that should be cut out however theres corruption in every country and Spain has hit the headlines mainly due to the Brits exposer to the property market.
Just have the feeling that those that were caught holding the firework when the bubble went bang are those that are crying foul.
Now if you were sitting on a 100K Euro profit then I dont think we would be communicating now.
The fact is that the greed spread from developer/solictor.bank and YES you the buyer as no buyers = NO Demand.
U.K buyers were lying on applications to get the 30%deposit so they were corrupt in optaining money.
Never thought they would have to complete and please dont say you were with O.V.P with the highest priorty of making money same as the rest on the tour.
Set you up with their solicitors,stitched you with the property and now you feel that a countries legal sytem should have been there to protect you.
Simply fact is the TOTAL GREED got so out of hand that the system couldnt cope and no countries could on that scale.
Do you really think that when the shit hit the fan that every developers/solicitor/bank would stand up and give the money back?
As far as they are concerned you were in it to make money just like the rest so tough and can see their point as before this period thouands of Brtis made small fortunes in the market pushing up prices to levels that the Spanish couldnt afford anymore.Just Frank 8)
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Just Frank
Many of us were just decent people buying a place in the sun. We were lied to and cheated by those in a position of trust. Added to that the hopeless lack of regulation and corruption at all levels, and we are left with the mess Spain finds itself in today. Many now are faced with an often hopeless and always slow justice system.
If you wish to defend that, and would rather blame us, then that’s your choice. I would rather blame those who i see as guilty, (thankfully a few regulars on here have stood up against them and won!) and stand up for those wronged.
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The Spanish Courts appear to mark everyone down as an “investor” ( it suits their defence to call buyers this) and as such, in their opinion have no right to any justice whatsoever. Who are they to judge whether someone is an investor or not? Where, in Spanish law is it written that “investors” are non-persons with no rights from the shocking corruption and deception that IS the Spanish property market? NO WHERE!
They were more than happy to take “investors” money when it was boosting their economy. How corrupt is it to take millions of euros in deposits when the developer hasn’t even bought the land!!!!??? Just one example of the corruption and lies.
Frank , 😀
I wonder why you constantly “run with the hare and hunt with the hounds” ? Your comments are not plausible in condemning people who in good faith bought in Spain. You stand up for the Spanish “way” when you yourself are a victim of the corruption and are awaiting a Court to give you your money back from a “second investment”. Maybe you can afford to loose money, most cannot. Only an(ex?) estate agent could think like that. How can you want to help people, as you say, when you back up injustice with posts like the above. No wonder Goodstitch gets frustrated with you… so do I! 😉 -
Mary Hinge wrote:
The fact is and as Frank has highlighted and i’m sure in many ways as Goodstich has realised is buying offplan in Spain, in fact any foreign country is concerned is highly risky.
In these times, with the current climate, even more risky.
When massive (ish) sums of money are involved people will get greedy and rip you off, especially in ‘offplan buy a picture and look at the hole in the ground’ world.
To those who think it won’t happen or someone will protect you, go home put your money in a (safe) bank account watch tv for next umpeenth years and forget about buying property as its not for you
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Hindsight is a wonderful thing. WHO in 2003 knew of the corruption…apart from REAs, developers, lawyers?
Agree, anybody buying off-plan in the last 24 months IS stupid..or ignorant. -
@Claire wrote:
The Spanish Courts appear to mark everyone down as an “investor” ( it suits their defence to call buyers this) and as such, in their opinion have no right to any justice whatsoever. Who are they to judge whether someone is an investor or not? Where, in Spanish law is it written that “investors” are non-persons with no rights from the shocking corruption and deception that IS the Spanish property market? NO WHERE!
unfortunately a vast majority of people who did buy off-plans were investor/speculators. Yes i realise that does not apply to all.
@Claire wrote:
They were more than happy to take “investors” money when it was boosting their economy. How corrupt is it to take millions of euros in deposits when the developer hasn’t even bought the land!!!!??? Just one example of the corruption and lies.
unfortunately the courts are going to look at the fact person X signed the contract. It is up to the buyer to apply due diligence.
@Claire wrote:
I wonder why you constantly “run with the hare and hunt with the hounds” ? Your comments are not plausible in condemning people who in good faith bought in Spain. You stand up for the Spanish “way” when you yourself are a victim of the corruption and are awaiting a Court to give you your money back from a “second investment”. Maybe you can afford to loose money, most cannot. Only an(ex?) estate agent could think like that. How can you want to help people, as you say, when you back up injustice with posts like the above. No wonder Goodstitch gets frustrated with you… so do I! 😉
Well I am an estate agent.
I will not argue that there needs to be an improvement in the spanish justice system. Expansion of hours, etc…
The corruption at the local level is being tackled.Personally i would love to see all the people that have been lied too get justice. But at the end of the day, its going to come down to whats in writing.
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@Claire wrote:
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. WHO in 2003 knew of the corruption…apart from REAs, developers, lawyers?
Agree, anybody buying off-plan in the last 24 months IS stupid..or ignorant.I beleive the case regarding the previous Marbella GIL government and their break with the original Marbella PGOU plan had been an issue for about 10 years. Unfortunately as a mentioned above spanish courts are in need of a revamp. Also this not be easily fixed due to the nature of spain decentralised government.
in 2001 i was living near marbella and the knowledge about the corruption seemed pretty well known by the average person.
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@Fuengi wrote:
Personally i would love to see all the people that have been lied too get justice. But at the end of the day, its going to come down to whats in writing.
Spanish authorities should be aware of the fact that the attitude of foreign tourist/investors/futture residents is the one who is going to decide whether Spain goes through a deep recession or through the mother of all recessions.
I do not think anybody will be interested in purchasing in Spain if the risk of losing the money is extremely high. There is a huge number of other countries with Sun.
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@Fuengi wrote:
in 2001 i was living near marbella and the knowledge about the corruption seemed pretty well known by the average person.
Why would a Brit or a German make studies over the Marbella corruption before purchasing?
Spain is not (in principle) a 3-rd world country like Nigeria where crooks take the money and run. Spain is supposed to be part of EU and have stricter regulations.
I did not lose a penny in Spain but I am appaled by other people’s bad experience. If I were them, I would not even want to hear about Spain let alone holiday there…
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@flosmichael wrote:
Spanish authorities should be aware of the fact that the attitude of foreign tourist/investors/futture residents is the one who is going to decide whether Spain goes through a deep recession or through the mother of all recessions.
I do not think anybody will be interested in purchasing in Spain if the risk of losing the money is extremely high. There is a huge number of other countries with Sun.
The risk of losing your money is not extremely high in spain. Investment is a risky proposition in any market. Yes agency regulation should be higher ins Spain, which we are seeing in andalcuia with the introduction of decree 218 and such.
And unfortunately looking at most countries in the sun, corruption is endemic in these nations, as well as poverty, crime, etc…
By comparison Spain is quite an attractive destination by most standards. Being one of the largest economies in the world is a plus as well. -
@flosmichael wrote:
Why would a Brit or a German make studies over the Marbella corruption before purchasing?
Spain is not (in principle) a 3-rd world country like Nigeria where crooks take the money and run. Spain is supposed to be part of EU and have stricter regulations.
I did not lose a penny in Spain but I am appaled by other people’s bad experience. If I were them, I would not even want to hear about Spain let alone holiday there…well this was in reply to a comment about only lawyers agencies and developers knowing about the corruption. My reply is that it seemed quite well known that there was corruption.
yes spain does have strict regulations, being part of the EU. That is why the courts had been reviewing GILs breaking on the PGOU plan.
All this informaiton was in the public domain. Its a shame that all the wonderful reporters to wrote about spain did not bother mentioning this in the british press.I assume the developers thought that the government would ismply legalise the buildings as the were a ‘done deal’.
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@Claire wrote:
Oh my goodness! 😯 So you knew about the corruption, and decided to jump on the gravy train. 🙄
Your edit makes it even worse! Right at the start of the “heavy duty” corruption!:wink:
we never sold in marbella. Not where i’m working now, but beleive it or not the agency i was working for at the time did not sell marbella way. They did sell a few aifos property though 😯 . Only there for a year or so.
EDIT: (at my own risk 😉 ) I hope i’ve shown that i don’t fall into the awful estates mold that we have all come to know and love.
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Fuengi – with respect, back in 2003 there was nothing in the British press or tv news etc. about any corruption in Spain. Certainly when we started coming out at that time we hadn’t heard a thing and we are avid newspaper readers.
Living there at the time, having one’s ear-to-the-ground and being exposed to the local gossip would have a distinct advantage over those just arriving in Spain to look at property.
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I hope i’ve shown that i don’t fall into the awful estates mold that we have all come to know and love.
Of course you have Fuengi! 😀 I put you down as a good guy a long time ago!
By the by, you said the person who signed the Purchase Contract was responsible for misdemeanours. That would be the Law firms we entrusted then! The very ones who said they were there solely to act in our,the clients , best interest! 😈
Agree Charlie. We too are avid (global) news followers.
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@charlie wrote:
Fuengi – with respect, back in 2003 there was nothing in the British press or tv news etc. about any corruption in Spain. Certainly when we started coming out at that time we hadn’t heard a thing and we are avid newspaper readers.
That’s the point charlie. I can understand how people like yourselves, even with reasearch, were taken advantage of. In the UK there were all those F**king shows about doing up your home, moving abroad, etc… Yet no one mention of this. But then nobody wanted to ‘rock’ the boat.
Now its different, becaus the mood has turned, no paper will post anything positive. -
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@Claire wrote:
I hope i’ve shown that i don’t fall into the awful estates mold that we have all come to know and love.
Of course you have Fuengi! 😀 I put you down as a good guy a long time ago!
By the by, you said the person who signed the Purchase Contract was responsible for misdemeanours. That would be the Law firms we entrusted then! The very ones who said they were there solely to act in our,the clients , best interest! 😈
Agree Charlie. We too are avid (global) news followers.
Yes it was the bloody lawyers fault. you know that, i know that. But the buyer was not pressured (can’t be proven) into using the in-house lawyer. More than likely the lawyer will come up looking incompetent and not corrupt.
How many people allowed lawyers to sign private contracts on their behalf without having, prior to signature, viewed a offical translation of the documents??? No completion dates, no property specifications. Just generalisations. -
@charlie wrote:
Fuengi – so you ARE on our side on this point afterall.
Yep, you’re definitely one of the good guys…. 😉
I do feel for people like yourselves who were looking at a holiday home.
But htose looking at investments to ‘flip’ before completion. Well there are always losers in these cases.
I just don’t like that people generalise about spain or the spanish. I think this is truly a wonderful country, with great poeple and institutions. It has been the greed of a very small minority of spanish/brits and buyers/sellers that have caused alot of problems for the rest.
EDIT: (I like shooting myself in the foot) I find that generally Just Frank makes valid points. I do see how it could grate for some on this forum though.
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Claire
there is a pattern emerging on this forum that those who either had a hand in the wrong doings, or at some time have acted in a similar way, or are likely to lose because of bad publicity, are trying to defend various aspects of the corruption/bad regulation/poor and slow justice etc., and try to shift the blame to those wronged. Probably because they feel the critisism is to close to home for comfort?.
If people can’t accept what has happened and the injustice many people are facing through long and tiresome court battles as reality, then we are probably banging our head against a wall trying to convince them?
Thankfully, those who can accept the often grim reality, help us with their continued support to fight for justice through the courts, for our sakes and others in a similar situation.
For all those who stand up for us in the right, i say a big THANKYOU!
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The original post was to show how easy it was to lose money buying off-plan in Spain as well as these laughable emerging markets.
Many of us made mistakes trusting estate agents and their lawyers who we thought were guiding us through any possible problems, and we did fall for their lies. The majority of agents advertising in the UK and Spain were guilty of promising the earth based on ‘our 20 years or so experience in Spain’.
Spain’s greedy Gov’t did nothing about the scams, in fact they welcomed the huge taxes it brought in. Their Gov’t should be ashamed of itself for not regulating the culprits.
If Spain has a severe recession as forecast because of their failing construction industry, then it serves them right.
As I said before, the only winners were the Agents, Developers, Lawyers and especially their Gov’t.
Do not buy in Spain until proper regulation comes in, prices WILL fall further (2 million unsold properties), Do Not make Stage Payments, Do Not believe any hype.
FACT: :If you purchase off-plan, You Will be in Negative Equity for years. ❗
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Hi Claire 😀
I do not run with any hare and hounds.
What I do is understand that there are always two sides and I choose to look at them both and understand why you and Goodstich44 do get frustrated by that. 😉
In answer to your question of whether I can afford to loose.
Well lets put in this way I am working 24/7 and if my business rescue plan dosent work then I am in deep s–t
Goodstich44. Please read my postings again.
99% were decent people so are 99%Spanish. So ?
You were conned by your own and thats the B—-rds you should be after.
Blame everyone in Spain if you want but them are the facts.
Chances of getting your money are to say the least slim and one day you may have to live with that.
Both of you know that I have problems and that I do what I can to help lots of people.
To do that I take all of the bad,bits of the good and mix it together to look at the WHOLE situation and not the bits that concern just one person.Just Frank 8)
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@Paul wrote:
Do not buy in Spain until proper regulation comes in, prices WILL fall further (2 million unsold properties), Do Not make Stage Payments, Do Not believe any hype.
without derailing this thread too much. Does anyone know where these 2 million propertes are in Spain.
According to the informaiton i can find, in the province of Malaga there are 45.000 unsold properties.
Where are the other 1.95 million?And unless they are in the areas where there is demand what real effect will thses unsold properties have?
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Fuenghi, the 2 million properties is a figure often quoted as unsold properties throughout the Spanish Costas.
I would not believe for one moment that only 45000 are unsold in Malaga Province, that seems to be a massaged figure. If that were the case, the Spanish property market would not be in deep sh1te as it is.
The top figure includes resales, plus all those under construction including those on sites where construction has halted, Spain grossly overdeveloped. 😉
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Goodstich, you are doing a good job along with others in pointing out these issues.
The very topic was bound to upset those in the business who have a vested interest, they don’t want the truth to out. If the cap fits they should wear it, however I would accept there are some honest agents out there, the trouble is ‘where are they’?
Spain does nothing to filter out their crooks who tar everyone with the same brush. Government Greed!!!!!! 🙄
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@Fuengi wrote:
And unfortunately looking at most countries in the sun, corruption is endemic in these nations, as well as poverty, crime, etc…
To what countries members of EU are you refering to? In France the notaire will never allow
the purchase of an illegal property.I have never heard of any problems with illegal properties in Italy, Greece or Southern Cyprus.
Things can go bad in Egypt or Morocoo, but there onle idiots can “invest” without
doing the research. -
@Fuengi wrote:
well this was in reply to a comment about only lawyers agencies and developers knowing about the corruption. My reply is that it seemed quite well known that there was corruption.
Quite well known to whom? Again, Brits or Germans are not supposed to necesarily read the Spanish newspapers about the corruption before buying there.
But the estate agents and the lawyers were supposed to inform them because they were paid to do so. The fact that the agents and the lawyers did not inform them makes them OUTLAWS and they should be the ones to be held responsible.
It is true that people signed, but they were conned and con-men usually end in jail!!!
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Paul
thanks, you’ve hit the nail on the head once again.
I realise my posts can come over to some as very anti-Spain. This is not the case at all. I’m anti those in Spain who refuse to regulate against cheats and liars, and yes that starts at the government, and plays straight in to the hands of corrupt UK and Spanish agents/lawyers/developers.
I also sympathise with the decent agents and developers, and lawyers some who post on here. They are in the horrible situation of being tarred, whenever we see bad publicity about Spain. I also realise that those who are happy in Spain, don’t want to hear any more rantings by people like myself, and had we been treated in an acceptable way, by those in positions of trust, they wouldn’t have to!
Spain has well and truly got itself in to its current mess, and due to their often hopeless and slow/corrupt justice system, it’s the good Spanish and UK folk who are, and will pay for the mistakes of those in power, and for how long?
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As Fuengi, I knew about the corruption in Marbella. I did not think it would end with such disasterous consequences ie. illegal properties.
When work was stopped on Banana Beach development and then started again about a year after I thought the problem had been resolved 🙄 I remember thinking they looked a good buy for the price!
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Goodstitch
Posted.
“For all those who stand up for us in the right, i say a big THANKYOU!”NO PROBLEM. GLAD TO DO MY BIT. 😉
Posted.
”It is true that people signed, but they were conned and con-men usually end in jail!!!”NOPE. THATS NOT HOW IT ALWAY WORKS IN SPAIN.
Thats not how it always works in the U.K for that matter.( Get Real)Sometimes yes in both countries but have to say that Spain does have a plan B in the property market sector in some case and thats the ole brown paper bag.
Lets face it if those that set up Goodstitch44 were from the U.K.
Live in the U.K.
Have a company in the U.K.SCREWED .Conned hundreds out of the millions of the poor innocent that Goodstich44 says and lets view BRITISH JUSTICE ( 3 whole C,C,Js)BRITISH JUSTICE 😈 TAKE THAT AND BE OFF WITH YOU. Gosh thats impressive dont you think 😯
Where are they now? Using the same conning tricks all over again in another country.Thats what they do these people.Create the con and know the legal system will never be able to cope with the sheer volume of of the mess they leave behind.
Thats main problem in Spain. The problem is just to massive and created by such greed( lots from the U.K) that some councils dont even know whats been built and in what area.
HOW THE HELL CAN WE EVEN THINK THAT THEY CAN PUT THEIR HANDS UP EVEN IF THEY COULD.
Some of us may get lucky and of course we will fight our corner but your talking years and the markets will have rebounded after selling all the
re-poss
People will sit on fences/investors will and are there and they will feed off others misery.
Then the cycle starts all over again and that will a tiny spot in history.
Little better than those that thought they were on to a good thing including Goodstich44.Me and thousands of others because while they just say that all they wanted was a holiday home are not really 100% truthful as YEP they also looked at it as an increasing asset or they would have not have bought and rented.
NO ONE buys to loose money . NO ONE. BE HONEST 😉
Then forums are set up and the whole country is slated at every opportunity and anyone that dares to not agree is somehow on the other side when the fact is we are all in the same boat,just have some different views thats all.
Even slated one or two Brits that live there and if its that bad why not sod off back home to the wonderful U,K 🙁
Its little wonder that the Spanish dont like us that much anymore.
Some day perhaps Spain will forgive us for our arrogance and its a great country despite the few that bring such shame at times.SEE? Two sides of an argument and not so hard if some give it a go.
Dosnt stop the fight of the genuine ones for justice dose it and those in for mega returns then its tough shit I am afraid.
By the was they were mostley the Brits?Just Frank 8)
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@Just Frank wrote:
The problem is just to massive and created by such greed( lots from the U.K) that some councils dont even know whats been built and in what area.
HOW THE HELL CAN WE EVEN THINK THAT THEY CAN PUT THEIR HANDS UP EVEN IF THEY COULD.This is what happens in a banana republic, a 3-rd world uneducated country.
People went to Spain hoping it was a EU country.
So your arguments do not stand.
On the other hand, I agree that many countries (including Spain) will have to forgive the Brits for their arrogance. I guess that the current disaster and the upcoming poverty will determine many Brits to do a soul searching.
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Just Frank
i don’t think you have never really stood up for those cheated. You pretend to, and then go on the defence of those who have cheated us, by saying ‘we were greedy, or ‘we should have known better’, when we criticise those who have wronged us. You can’t really have it both ways, you are for us or against?
It’s not a matter of seeing both sides, Ocean Vie* or A*FOS or any of the other con men from either country could argue that one. That doesn’t mean they’re not swindling cheats though, and shouldn’t be locked up!
It’s a matter of knowing who’s right and who’s wrong. Thankfully, most people on here have worked that one out, and offer full support to those conned.
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@flosmichael wrote:
To what countries members of EU are you refering to?
Spain, France, Monaco, Italy, Malta, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Albania, Greece, Turkey, Cyprus, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Israel, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco.
EDIT: ok not all EU i realise but corruption in all@flosmichael wrote:
Things can go bad in Egypt or Morocoo, but there onle idiots can “invest” without doing the research.
they are idiots for investing in property or for not researching thoroughly?
@flosmichael wrote:
Quite well known to whom? Again, Brits or Germans are not supposed to necesarily read the Spanish newspapers about the corruption before buying there.
True.
@flosmichael wrote:
But the estate agents and the lawyers were supposed to inform them because they were paid to do so. The fact that the agents and the lawyers did not inform them makes them OUTLAWS and they should be the ones to be held responsible.
yes.
@flosmichael wrote:
It is true that people signed, but they were conned and con-men usually end in jail!!!
yes.
flosmichael you are not saying anything that any reasonable person would disagree with. So outside of simply what has been said a million times, what point are you trying to make? Yes con-men should go to prison. But you have to prove that you ahve been conned. Yes many lawyers were working for agency/devleopers but then why did you use them? Why let the lawyer sign a contract before you ahve seen a translated copy? etc… IT ALWAYS COMES DOWN TO THE SAME THING! TRUST.
For whatever reason countless people came down here and trusted people they would not have ‘back home’. Whever it was stupidity, greed or simply trusting i don’t know.
We’ve had many of their ‘victims’ come into our office trying to sell thier off-plan and they have next to no documentation. Contract favouring the developers, no NIE papers, etc…
They’re best and saddest argument is/was “we were told that’s how it works in Spain” 😡I hope all these con-men get whats coming to them. But its not going to happen. They were/are no different from time-share reps and how many of them ever go to court.
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Flosmicheal
You posted.“This is what happens in a banana republic, a 3-rd world uneducated country.
People went to Spain hoping it was a EU country.
So your arguments do not stand. “
ABOUT SUMS UP THAT OTHER SIDE IF THATS WHAT IT IS.
POSSIBLY THE MOST IGNORANT ANSWER I HAVE EVER SEEN ON THE S.P.I FORUM.
How dare you insult the Spanish in such a way 👿I make a point of never insulting anyone as its often that the argument or reasoning is then lost.
THIS HAS TESTED MY RESOLVE HOWEVER TO THE EDGE.May I ask why you contribute to a Spanish Property Forum if your views on the Spanish people are such.
One wonders what your neighbours in Spain would think of your opinion IF and I repeat IF you ever did buy and somehow I think this is never going to happen.I for one would like to appologise to any Spanish that happen to view this forum and this is not the view shared by the vast majority in the U.K
Just Frank 8)
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@Fuengi wrote:
For whatever reason countless people came down here and trusted people they would not have ‘back home’. Whever it was stupidity, greed or simply trusting i don’t know.
No, I think you should put it this way: in UK there is no reason not to trust a solicitor when buying a house.
I bought my first house here in UK from a developer without thinking much. I was given some documents, I signed, sent money to the solicitor, he transfered the money to the
developer and developer handed me the key.Now, take one million of people who did the same all their life and trusted the system. HOw could they think that in other EU country their house could be demolished after 1 year without compensation?
The only way Spanish government could save face and show that Spain is a civilised country would be to urgently legalised all the constructions and make sure no illegal building occur in the future.
They should also force the return of money to anybody who was conned. Otherwise
Spain will be seen like a country not to be trusted by anybody who lost lots of money over there.It is that simple.
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@Just Frank wrote:
Flosmicheal
You posted.“This is what happens in a banana republic, a 3-rd world uneducated country.
People went to Spain hoping it was a EU country.
So your arguments do not stand. “
ABOUT SUMS UP THAT OTHER SIDE IF THATS WHAT IT IS.
POSSIBLY THE MOST IGNORANT ANSWER I HAVE EVER SEEN ON THE S.P.I FORUM.
I guess you have problems reading in English….
What I said is that those kind of things happen in a banana country. But Spain is a
EU country and I implied that EU is a very civilized part of the world and
therefore Spain is a very civilized part of the world. So those kind of things (like
authorities not knowing what build where) should not be allowed there.Is it now clear enough in English?
I won’t comment on any other or your rude and aggresive comments.
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I am one who has been conned, I do not consider myself to be stupid, however in UK solicitors have a perceived integrity and put the interests of the client to the fore.
Developers are regulated by the planning laws and building control to ensure they build as described in the place described and of the qua;ity required by law.
Purchasers do not expect that the town planners will issue any permissions which could be considered to be illegal. And we would be hard pushed to cite a case in UK.
But I do not blame the spanish man in the street, in fact i feel sorry for them as it is not those that caused these problems who are suffering from unemployment and a sharp fall in their income.
I love spain and admire the people of Spain.
When those responsible for these problems are removed from a position of power the tourists and homeseekers will return. This is in the hands of the people only they can force a change. -
I am one who has been conned, I do not consider myself to be stupid, however in UK solicitors have a perceived integrity and put the interests of the client to the fore.
Developers are regulated by the planning laws and building control to ensure they build as described in the place described and of the qua;ity required by law.
Purchasers do not expect that the town planners will issue any permissions which could be considered to be illegal. And we would be hard pushed to cite a case in UK.
But I do not blame the spanish man in the street, in fact i feel sorry for them as it is not those that caused these problems who are suffering from unemployment and a sharp fall in their income.
I love spain and admire the people of Spain.
When those responsible for these problems are removed from a position of power the tourists and homeseekers will return. This is in the hands of the people only they can force a change. -
Flosmicheal.
Thought I had come across some unusual views on the Spanish Forums but have to say I think you hold cup.
You have NO experience of property purchases or indeed property in general.
By the sounds of what you posted regarding Spain and its people its yet another thats spent a couple of weekends in a kiss me quick hat and bucket and spade resort out of season.
Read a few newspapers agree on everything the editor writes and bingo yet another clone.
Then you post telling me not to post unless I get my information correct 😯Just Frank 8)
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@Just Frank wrote:
You have NO experience of property purchases or indeed property in general.
By the sounds of what you posted regarding Spain and its people its yet another thats spentI did not post anything negative towards Spain and its people, it was just your imagination who understood that.
In what concerns property purchases, I bought and sold 3 houses in USA, bought and sold 2 in Romania and I still have 1 in France (Chamonix) where I go for skiing.
I never had problems buying/selling them. I never even thought of having any problems.Unlike you, I have never sold property as a real estate agent so yes, I do not have
that kind of experience.I was very surprised and very appaled to read that buying a house in Spain is not as safe as in countries I have bought before because I thought Spain is as safe as USA and France and much safer than Romania.
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Flosmicheal
Well did you did your best to wriggle out of that one. 😯Nah .Kids dont look at property forums and rude language is not the norm.
However as with anything and in particular jokes I think most forum members are broad minded enough to allow the odd rude word if it fits in.
Kids no very well what F–ck means and assh e means so like the Spanish give some credit.
If it offended you then I appologise however several have emailed me laughing their ti– off I mean bossoms of course .
Tell you what I will do and will delete it. 😉Just Frank 8)
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@Just Frank wrote:
.Kids dont look at property forums and rude lanuage is not the norm.
How do you know?
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Hi Claire 😉
Yeh. Yer right gal its just my bloo ,Opps emails have packed up and you know me here one minute then gone again and think I have outstayed my welcome yet again 😀
Go get all the scum bags.liers cheats and just ignore ole Just Frank.Flosmicheal. You are also right and swear words should never be used as kids must be SOoooo interested.
Used the word pussy in the last one .Devil I know ?
Now look back through the postings and you read was was rude to who first.
Take it I am not on your christmas card list then 😥 .Just Frank 8)
Sorry Flosmicheal.
Buying in Spain is generally safe
Use a good independent solicitor
Avoid off plan at all costs
Dont listen you everything you read as 90 % are very happy with what they have in Spain. -
@flosmichael wrote:
No, I think you should put it this way: in UK there is no reason not to trust a solicitor when buying a house.
no i prefer my way. I remember an ex-solicitor telling me “whenever you use a solicitor, make sure that at the end your bill is itemized and lo & behold the amount you have to pay decreases”.
@flosmichael wrote:
I bought my first house here in UK from a developer without thinking much. I was given some documents, I signed, sent money to the solicitor, he transfered the money to the
developer and developer handed me the key.very similar to how I bought my current house.
@flosmichael wrote:
Now, take one million of people who did the same all their life and trusted the system. HOw could they think that in other EU country their house could be demolished after 1 year without compensation?
how many people have currently lost most of their fortunes through SIV and these other investment ideas in the last year? Just in the UK?
@flosmichael wrote:
The only way Spanish government could save face and show that Spain is a civilised country would be to urgently legalised all the constructions and make sure no illegal building occur in the future.
Thus proving everyone was right and that it ok to build/buy illegal properties as they will be legalized. Would’nt that mean those con-men were right?
@flosmichael wrote:
They should also force the return of money to anybody who was conned. Otherwise
Spain will be seen like a country not to be trusted by anybody who lost lots of money over there.
It is that simple.never really that simple though is it. Many poeple will never prove that they were conned. unless its in writing.
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Goodstich 44
Sorry just read your posting.
Just Frank
i don’t think you have never really stood up for those cheated. You pretend to, and then go on the defence of those who have cheated us, by saying ‘we were greedy, or ‘we should have known better’, when we criticise those who have wronged us. You can’t really have it both ways, you are for us or against?
WHY SHOULD I STAND UP >I DONT HAVE TO TALK ABOUT IT GETTING NOWHERE I JUST GET ON WITH HELPING WHO I CAN.
YES.PERHAPS WE ALL SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.
I AM FOR THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN CONNED AND AGAINST THOSE THAT WERE JUST GREEDY AS WERE SOME OF THE SPANISH AND U>K COMPANIES AND PUNTERS.It’s not a matter of seeing both sides, Ocean Vie* or A*FOS or any of the other con men from either country could argue that one. That doesn’t mean they’re not swindling cheats though, and shouldn’t be locked up!
IN PARTICULAR. THERE ARE NO TWO SIDES TO THESE TWO AS THEY ARE BOTH EVIL . THERE ALL NOT LIKE THAT THOUGH AND THATS THE POINT
It’s a matter of knowing who’s right and who’s wrong. Thankfully, most people on here have worked that one out, and offer full support to those conned.
HERE YOU GO AGAIN.
YOU WERE SOLD A PUP AND YOU FELL IN HOOK LINE AND SINKER.
YOU HAVE JUST SAID THAT ALL YOU WANTED WAS A PLACE IN THE SUN.
WE BOTH KNOW YOU WERE ALSO IN IT TO MAKE MONEYWHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO SAY HERE ?
YOU HAVE BEEN CONNED . O.K ? 😀
BRITS HAVE SIGNED UP TO GENUINE PROPERTIES THEY CANT PAY FOR SO WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE THE DEVELOPERS THAT DID COMPLETE AS CONTRACT.
THEY WERE CONNED O.K ? 👿
SECTORS OF THE JUSTICE SYSTEM NEED SORTING,OTHERS ARE BETTER THAN OURS.
GOODSTICH44 With every respect this guy is not for clonning as I have my own views and agree where I feel something is right and dont if I feel its not.
That in no way does it mean I dont stand up for right and wrong it just makes me stronger in my resolve to help others and to understand and deal with my own problemsRegards
Just Frank 8)
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vilprano said
”I am one who has been conned, I do not consider myself to be stupid, however in UK solicitors have a perceived integrity and put the interests of the client to the fore.
Developers are regulated by the planning laws and building control to ensure they build as described in the place described and of the qua;ity required by law.
Purchasers do not expect that the town planners will issue any permissions which could be considered to be illegal. And we would be hard pushed to cite a case in UK.
But I do not blame the spanish man in the street, in fact i feel sorry for them as it is not those that caused these problems who are suffering from unemployment and a sharp fall in their income.
I love spain and admire the people of Spain.
When those responsible for these problems are removed from a position of power the tourists and homeseekers will return. This is in the hands of the people only they can force a change.phew, ……thank heavens for good posts from you, flosmichael, paul, claire, charlie etc. The above is smack on.
I think aggressive posts from those who have shown on this thread that they have little regard for those who have been conned, only confirm my thoughts that some never will see right and wrong when it’s staring them in the face. Their mindset is probably closer to those we are up against!
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Goodstich44
You postedphew, ……thank heavens for good posts from you, flosmichael, paul, claire, charlie etc. The above is smack on.
I think aggressive posts from those who have shown on this thread that they have little regard for those who have been conned, only confirm my thoughts that some never will see right and wrong when it’s staring them in the face. Their mindset is probably closer to those we are up against!READ THROUGH EVERYONES POSTINGS AND CANT SEE ANY REFERENCE AT ALL REGARDING ISSUES YOU HAVE JUST POSTED.
A FEW FACTS PUT FORWARD BUT THATS WHATS FORUMS ARE ABOUT.
SEEMS EVERYONE HERE IS ON THE SAME SIDE SO WHAT MINDSET ARE YOU UP AGAINST. 😕
AGGRESSIVE POSTS ? WHO POSTED. SAME CR-P AGAINST A FELLOW POSTER 😯 Thats not that aggressive so dont bother yourself about it. 😉BY THE WAY HAVE JUST REVISED MY REPLY TO YOU IN MY LAST POSTING
Just Frank 8)
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Paul
sorry to lose your original point. I think the only one’s who advise buying at present are those who have a vested interest in that advice?, or those whom losing money is not a concern?
I think the recession is masking the problems of corruption/lack of regulation/overbuilds/justice, and until these issues are made good, it’s hard to see the return of many wanting to invest in Spain.
i guess if prices in Spain come down low enough, and our economy picks up, perhaps the gamble of putting your money in to a country with the now known problems will be worth considering for some once again?
could still be a long way away though i feel?
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Hi Claire 🙂
NOOOoooo. Thats not the case. 😥
I deleted something regarding me and my situation which was not relevent and answered another point to Goodsitch 44.
Read it again and if posting as you call it is agressive and if thats pointing out facts that some members need to hear then I am O.K with that.
Why on earth this whoes side someone is supposed to be on ie the goodies or the baddies is like school playground and its about time some just grow up.
Is that aggressive ?
Nah its why numerous people that view the forums, dont join in and why good and valued posters leave.
Its what many think and dont dare post.
Again its time someone said it as it is and again I am O.K with that.
Lets not you and I go over old ground as its the last thing the forum or the editor needs and your one of the last I would wish to upset:wink:Just Frank 8)
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Hi Claire
😀 Perhaps dare not post is O.T.T(realised someone would have a dig after I posted but didnt want to alter postings) 😉
The simple fact is that people should be made to feel welcome to post and they are not.
This attitude that somehow we are not supposed to not to know right from wrong is somewhat pathetic and something the forums can do without.
It causes 90% of threads ending in the take it outside thread consuming time for the editor when he and members who give their time freely are better motivated to perhaps develop the forum for problems now facing property in Spain today.
In case some have not noticed this is not 2002 anymore most of the bogeymen have gone and its clean up time.
These naming of forum posters into sectors that are somehow supposed to form the good groups against evil is something from a nativity play and a do you want to be in my gang playgroup senario.
If someone were to have noticed the forum 6 years ago and visted it
today they would be forgiven if they considered it remained in some sort of time warp with the same ole totally wasted efforts which dont do anyone any good.
The problem is that you dont notice just how farcical it looks until you step outside of the forum and look in.
I look at when you and I and our moments and cringe when reviewing the past,thankfully I left school and try to put my efforts to better use and think you know that now 😉
Some previous valued posters are not interested in playing these silly games and clearly are looking for a balanced :shock:(theres that name again)forum.
They leave with their valued contribitions and then its ask why 😯
Of course members dont agree with each others views at times and the pure nature of forums or meetings are bound to result in heated debate and theres nothing wrong and in fact it can be fun/healthy as long as it dosent get to personal.
Sometimes it means a wined up but what the hell its only a forum and some need to put it in perspective and get a life.
A personal P/M this week putting my education and other factors to question are thankfully countered by a few lovely ones but it does show how personal it can get.
Thankfully my parentage has been questioned more than once before and happens of you the type to stick yer head above the wall so its water off a ducks back.
Combined knowledge within the forum could be so beneficial to many with problems and indeed people looking to purchase property or move to Spain.Well theres yet another rant from Just Frank that will fall on deaf ears and no doupt the forum will continue for yet another series of replays which is so so sad when there is so much to play for being the defence of the dreadful reality at times to the mess man has created of late.
Just Frank 8)
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In case some have not noticed this is not 2002 anymore most of the bogeymen have gone and its clean up time.
The problem is Frank, 6 going on 7 years down the line the carnage still remains and still happens to this day. Spain is not cleaning up it’s act It isn’t just the Rea’s to blame . It’s the crooked Lawyers and now the Judges who fail to implement the laws of their own justice system!
You only need to look at other websites to see this. Six years down the line and still Spain turns its back on sorting out the corruption by compensating those most affected….THE BUYERS! -
Agree with Claire here. I know things are “slowly” improving as they should be . Its still not enough and those people who were shafted 6 years ago are still in the same situation, no one seems to care or are interested in upholding the law. There is a long way to go and until the legal system sorts itself out there will be no progress and the “BUYERS” will still be the losers.
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Hi Claire 🙂
Agree also and its in my posting.“In case some have not noticed this is not 2002 anymore most of the bogeymen have gone and its clean up time.”
Oh yes they left so much mess to clear up didnt they. 😈
You know mines been 5 Years +and no end in site so I am the last person that would suggest its all over,perhaps slightly different challenges one being the legal and corruption in sectors! of the housing market but not all.
We both know many others also that are in dire trouble. 😥
Some of their own making so whats the problem with taking this into account at times.
Murcia at least seems to be showing progress in the legal department and at least thats something.
Also 99% of the posters I see appear to feel the same about the challenges in front so why the back biting if someone wishes to consider that ALL is not bad as some would want us to believe.
Somewhere in the mess we will have to look for signs, some are working there arses off for change.good lawyers,good judges and yes respectable E,As.and we need to support this 100%
Perhaps thats why they dont post here anymore alongside very valued posters whoes views I personally respected and I know you did as well.
I know one solicitor for sure that had enough of the constant battering of the legal system they work their buts off for and yes they know of problems but in reality only sectors of it .
Sectors of our laws stink so lets not put ourselves on some sort of pedistal.
Perhaps efforts and experiences of the forum members may focussed on the real fight for change and not against each other. 😉Just Frank 8)
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Claire wrote
”The problem is Frank, 6 going on 7 years down the line the carnage still remains and still happens to this day. Spain is not cleaning up it’s act It isn’t just the Rea’s to blame . It’s the crooked Lawyers and now the Judges who fail to implement the laws of their own justice system!
so true Claire, and i think all most people want is that we recognise the continued failings of the system, (not blame the victims!) and support those who have been wronged by the people you mention above. We continue to be the victims. We have been conned, simple as that! and all we ask is that the con-men get their punishment and those of us conned get justice/compensation. This should go without saying?, but sadly shows what a long way there is to go!
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Goodstich44
Yep as I said time and time again. ITS CLEAN UP TIME.
There are sectors in parts of the legal system that really do need sorting.
Dont think many will get punished however as the courts are saying that some should be resonsible for their actions and they were in it for the money like everyone else.
As I said some feel conned by the Brits and consider us arrogant and have fuelled massive increases in house prices because alonside the developers /councils we were responsible to some extent for the greed.
There are failings in systems and victims in every Country in the World.
The biggest problem is so many just talk the walk and perhaps dont direct their efforts to really try to make a difference and help others along the way.
It seems if these efforts were directed against those that need to listen instead of trying to clone members to try to indentify whats right from wrong when we are all adults we just may start crack some shells.Support solicitors/judges/E.As who are fighting for change instead of simply kicking the crap out of them their country at every opportunity then perhaps they may return to the forums with their support for us to.
The simple fact is that we are making no headway at all after all these years and in fact just making things worse for ourselves as can be seen.
Think its time to stop digging 😕Just Frank 8)
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Frank said
”The simple fact is that we are making no headway at all after all these years and in fact just making things worse for ourselves as can be seen.
Think its time to stop digging”I think that’s wrong Frank?
The dreadful situation facing many people needs shouting as loud as possible. You, putting those like me and others down because we constantly highlight how bad thing are, gather petetions, write to mep’s and support others who have been conned, is doing nothing to show us that you yourself support those wronged. And then to make matters worse, the fact you virtually blame us for being ‘greedy’ or ‘ just in it for the money’ just defies belief, and makes you sound like you really don’t know who is to blame for the current mess!
We all know Spain is a great country, lovely people blah,blah, that’s why many of us tried to buy there!, but for heavens sake the costas are in a mess because of poor government/corruption/poor regulation/poor justice etc. NOT the majority of the poor sods from the UK , trying to buy a place in the sun in good faith!
If you are with us Frank, fair enough. Of course we don’t expect you to agree with everthing, we are all entitled to our opinions, but when you criticise those who are trying to force change with comments like ‘making things worse for ourselves’ or ‘stop digging’ it really makes me wonder where your sympathy really lies?
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Are you suggesting appeasment Frank ❓
Shall we all write nice things about Spain so that people looking for information on the forum also get conned ❓
It may be “clean up time” but it’s not happening. Have you seen the Axarquia thread?
The British were not the main ones in the corruption, they just aided the process.
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Katy
You posted.Shall we all write nice things about Spain so that people looking for information on the forum also get conned .
Appeasment and fair play to Spain would be a good start.
So there is nothing good about Spain then ?
So every part of Spain,everyone in it is hell on earth is it ?
The Brits like the rest all played a part in corruption and greed and thats what we all agree on.
Just Frank 8)
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@Just Frank wrote:
Katy
Appeasment and fair play to Spain would be a good start.
So there is nothing good about Spain then ?
So every part of Spain,everyone in it is hell on earth is it ?
The Brits like the rest all played a part in corruption and greed and thats what we all agree on.
Just Frank 8)You forget that Katy decided to live in Spain so she must like it over there.
Nobody on this Earth has ever claimed that Spain is Hell. It is a worderful country with wonderful people. But there are some aspects which do not function like they should in a civilised country.
Greed is part of the human nature.
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Goodstich44
You went in for the money.( We both know it ) 😉
It went wrong and you got yourself in with the wrong crowd and you were being conned from day one by a U.K Firm.
Now due to the level of corruption and greed a monster was created.
No council could be trusted and lawyers were and are trying to cover their backs to this day.
Sadly there are sectors in the courts that are no doupt either on the brown paper bag list or a covering for someone else.
This is clearly wrong and justice must prevail to not only U.K residence but those in Spain and other countries as well.
This needs constant exposer by what ever means required so Spain is made to get its act in order and if possible punish those that are guilty.
Today I am hopeful that a couple that I have helped them out on a very difficult situation will get a result where its clear they were being set up so guards can never be down.
I do this almost on a daily basis alongside a Solicitor friend in Marbella who gives her time freely.
Now I have learnt that its better to work with those in Spain that wish for things to change brings results than fight against those very people we need. YOURS DO NOT AND LESSONS ARE NOT BEING LEARNT.
As you say things are in fact getting worse and thats a fact.
Now as dreadful for those conned we need to offer help and support and fight for change and often that may mean we are open to suggestions regarding different tactics.
I think that those in Spain fighting for this change are something we should not alienate.
Now I dont beleive for one moment that you will agree with me and unless I chose to condemn the whole of Spain for the actions of a few without question for some reason I am considered a target.
The important thing is efforts are directed and support given to everyone who makes real efforts to support the cause.
Katy. Can I respectfully ask
Do you like Spain as if its so bad as you portray why not consider moving as you clearly dont have anything good to say about it or its people.Kind Regards
Just Frank 8) -
Flosmicheal
You posted
” It is a worderful country with wonderful people. But there are some aspects which do not function like they should in a civilised country.”And you sent me a P/M saying I was uneducated 😉
Thats all I am saying if you read my posts that some are making it very bad for the many.
There you go again about a civilised country which Spain is just a cancer that needs cutting out.
Same as this and most other corrupt Countries.
Whens yer next weekend in Benidorm. 🙂Just Frank 8)
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@Just Frank wrote:
And you sent me a P/M saying I was uneducated 😉
That PM was due to you attacking me in a brutal way without any reason on a public forum.
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Flosmicheal
This is now way off topic so shall we get it back 🙂
Please check the postings and I think you will find that I responded to your rude attidude.
Anyway enough of that and lets agree to support the fight for justice in a sector of Spain when as you say realising that Spain is a fine Country with lovely people and they to are ashamed of what a few have done to its reputation,where Spain will be made to pay over a very long period I fear.
The editor dosent need this tit for tat nor do the readers so lets agree to disagree for the sake of all.Regards
Just Frank 8) -
Just Frank wrote
”Now I have learnt that its better to work with those in Spain that wish for things to change brings results that fight against those very people we need. YOURS DO NOT AND LESSONS ARE NOT BEING LEARNT.”
what?????……..this is all gobbledegook, making no sense Frank, as was most of that post of yours?
Are you are saying we should be nice about Spain, so that the Spanish like us, and help to combat the con-men?. I think the decent Spanish are as fed up as we are about those con-men from Spain and the UK, who have done so much damage to their land and reputation, and the fact they prospered unhindered.
Hi flosmichael
yes, greed is human nature. I think it’s true say that everyone who buys property hopes for an increase in value. If this wasn’t the case, most of us would rent i would think. For anyone to say that’s greed though, and virtually say we got what we asked for is i’m sure you will agree ‘missing the point’ of the mess of the Spanish costa’s. Had regulation been in place 10 years ago, a limited amount of decent quality units could have been built that didn’t ruin the coastline. Those who were able, or on the ball would have bought, and i daresay the value of the limited stock would have a high re-sale value today, much like the UK (before recent collapse)
No doubt lots of us would have missed the boat with limited property available, but that must be better than what we have now!
Had the Spanish government not been so corrupt, i don’t see why that couldn’t have been a reality?
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Give it a rest Frank for all our sakes.
So what if Goodstitch hoped to make a few euros profit. I’d bet you did too buying two off-plan properties, both in the same area. Nobody buys property with a view to losing money. We all hope to make a profit from it. That’s how people move up the ladder!
Frank you wrote:The editor dosent need this tit for tat nor do the readers so lets agree to disagree for the sake of all.
You are the tormentor Frank!
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Goodstich44 😀
Your getting their )
You Posted
“Are you are saying we should be nice about Spain, so that the Spanish like us.”ONLY THE GOODIES THAT KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG. 😉
YEP SPAIN HATE THE FEW AND THE U.K CONMEN THAT BRING SHAME ON THEM AND US
AS YOU NOW SAY. YOU WERE IN IT TO MAKE MONEY AND NOT LOOSE.
Now we all agree that the conmen and sectors of the law are in need of change and we will do everything we can to bring that about.
Seems we are just going around in circules here and as I have said lets combine efforts to kick ass were we can and realise that there are at times 2 sides to everything
Had regulation been in place 10 years ago as you say much of whats happened may have been avoided,BUT IT WASNT .
They were not ready for corruption of some Spanish with the help of conmen from the U.K
They were not ready for the greed that many showed in creating the demand so foricing prices up beyond what the Spanish can afford.
Back to what I have been saying,its clean up time and lets work together to ensure we do our best to help those that fight for change.With Kind Regards
Just Frank 8)
No wonder I have to keep going back over posts as I am a bag of nerves checking how you 3 can turn around postings.
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Creating a demand for something is NOT greed. 🙄 Besides, so what if some people are greedy? As flosmichael said, it’s human nature, has been since Adam & Eve. 😉
C’mon Frank, you were selling to these greedy people and I’m sure quite happy to take your commission. It helped financed your two purchases in Marbella didn’t it.?Anyway, old ground…again. I’m outta here! No more mileage in this thread.
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Hi Claire 🙂
Yep agree that there is no mileage in this thread.
Your right about the commissions though and many made a small fortune.(1 Stupid Brit 8 on one development and the salesmant that was selling mobile phones the week before and had never been to Spain copped £30.000 in just this sale on one weekend.
The main problem was many greedy Brits buying up to 10 properties at a time and do you know what ?
They never had any intention of buying any. 😕
Buy 3 get one free and all that.Rents Guaranteed.Disney here soon. 😕
They even set up their own mothers.brother,sisters,mates
Forged documents to get the 30% deposits.
One thing is for sure that this greed made them so gullable I could have bought the properties for cash had I the morals of some instead of a good going over in Spain and the bounty on me ole nutter warning the innocent.As they say all is not what it seems. 😉
Just Frank 8)
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Frank, I have posted some nice things about living here, even put on some photos. If the readers really want to read the good stuff there must be a 1000 (at least) Estate Agents websites writing about Spain, it’s not my job!
Some of the things I whinge about is because if the Spanish people don’t halt the mess, things will just go down further. I have considerable property investment here too don’t forget. If you have read all my posts you will know that my Grandfather was Spanish, albiet an Anglophile. (he met my Grandmother and stayed in the UK although he had a place here too). I am reasonably fluent in Spanish and I will say again, the main people to blame for what has happened here is the Spanish, they are corrupt from the top down and don’t care what happens to a few foreigners The British Estate Agents just tagged along for the ride.
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katy
it’s ok. There is enough common sense coming from you, Claire, Flosmichael, Paul etc, etc to cover up the complete rubbish posted!
I’m just sorry that those who can see things as they are, and continue to support those wronged, are subjected to some views not very far from those we are up against.
I think we know the score, if there was any doubt before?
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Katy
You posted
“the main people to blame for what has happened here is the Spanish, they are corrupt from the top down and don’t care what happens to a few foreigners The British Estate Agents just tagged along for the ride.”Think I have seen the worst of both. 😈 Both wound of those minoity would stitch there own mothers up or sell their soul for the next deal/CON.
My solicitor says the very same thing and gets so frustrated at times with having to deal with them.
As she says though she wont give up fighting for whats right and hopefully you dont consider every single person involved in the legal proffession are bent.Nah the estate agents lie on the brouchures(Yep their liers) 😯 and think most have had enough of that.
Much better coming from those in Spain and those in the U.K that love the Country and prepared to do all they can to cut the cancer.Seems I now have 4 on my back and telling some truths means I am a tormentor. 😕
No need really as I fully support everything against corruption and put my efforts to good use,thats when I am not trying to learn right from wrong. 😕
Now its clear that this thread has been popular or that many people would not have posted or hit the site in such a short time.
ITS USUAL WITH OLE FRANK TO LIVEN THINGS UP A LITTLE WITH SOME HOME TRUTHS 😀
OR IN ONE CASE GIVING SOME INSIGHT INTO SPANISH PROPERTY.
I understand that my defence of Spain as a whole rubs some up and thats not a problem for me.
Also that I choose not bury Spain at every opportunity is outside of the forums normal single minded approach (not an insult before I get stick as its good at times to be focussed)
The bottom line is we have had our say.we are on the same side and if nothing else lets agree to disagree as we will do peoples heads in. 😯 ( must be out staying our welcome)
In situations like this there are only loosers and thats the reputation of the forum so lets see if we can call it a day before the editor has to step in. 😉
This way we can all agree that we have our own views can debate without falling out 😉
The forum is the winner and no loosers. 😀 😀Kind Regards to you all.
Just Frank 8)
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sad thing about all this, is Just Frank seems to agree with you katy, goodstich, etc…
He just seems to take offense to sentences such as “the main people to blame for what has happened here is the Spanish, they are corrupt from the top down and don’t care what happens to a few foreigners”. Although probably not meant as such, this is blatantly racist statement that does little to help the discussion. Again I could be wrong and he just enjoys annoying you. 😕
Yes there has been corruption at a local level. NOT at provincial level or higher. Unless someone has an example of direct corruption by the Junta de Andalucia? or by the central government maybe?
Although guilty of neglect and a slow moving legal system, it has been these bodies that brought the corruption into hte light and have been trying to fight it.
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Fuengi said this is blatantly racist statement
Don’t be so ridiculous, that is outrageous to bring in the race card 😈 Who else should we blame for Spain’s downfall…a handful of crooked British Estate Agents. They played a very small part in the scheme of things. You say the Junta isn’t corrupt 🙄 I know you haven’t been in the country very long but I think you need to follow the news a little more.
Chaves is often accused of corruption in the Spanish media. He employs at least 9 members of his family in high positions, not to mention his cronies. There have been rumours in the press that he has huge amounts in personal bank accounts.
During the early years of the GIL empire in Marbella there was a war of words between GIL and the Junta. GIL retaliated by naming and shaming two people from the Junta who had accepted bribes from him.
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The point of the topic was to show how easy it was for people to be in negative equity in Spain by buying off-plan.
Some of us just wish to point out the problems so as to warn others not to make the same mistakes.
Obviously those with a vested interest such as some agents, just don’t like the truth to out and so will try and take the topic way off-course.
Many of us know how the often UK agents have lied to fellow Brits so as to get their commissions, then they move on to other firms and countries to ply their deception elsewhere.
So, to anyone wishing to buy off-plan whether in Spain or emerging markets, be Warned and especially don’t trust agents trying to sell in these economic conditions at these exchange rates, you will almost certainly be led astray and lose money. 🙄 FACT!!!
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I am never sure which side Frank is on. I think his main concern is that this forum is totally responsible for “talking prices down” and is thinking about the value of his own property.
If I had any good new re. CDS I would post it, honest. Don’t just mean like the sun is shining type 😀
Just to add, if new build had been correctly regulated we in Marbella (and some other places) would be sitting on a gold mine now.
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Paul has kindly put the thread back on course
Why not take less interest in Just Frank and either ignore his postings and put the time and efforts into helping to make a difference.
What the hell difference is it to anyone what side Frank is on its none of anyones business.Now Paul has pointed out that off plan is a bad choice.
Its a bad choice as its very difficult to know what value you are getting for your money.
The price will be inflated to allow for big fat commissions and you will be in negative equity from day one.
The solicitor may or may not be corrupt.
Never trust what someone tells you about future growth or rental returns
What you get for the proposed purchase will almost certainly not be what was promised in the brouchure.( Fact I have never seen it once)
Never take on face value statements like The Habitation Licence will be here soon OR NEVER NEVER .ITS IN THE POST.
In short in the last 6 years very few if anyone has made money from Off-Plan so BIG advice is to not risk it.
For some it could take 10 years plus to see a return some may never as they were conned and didnt do eneough homework and paid way over the top in poor areas
Others only time will tell when situations like the habitation licences are issued so the market can get some sence will losses or gains be tangible.
Could be a good time to buy without but ensure you really have good advice before even considering this.
Now if people want to know how to avoid negative equity the listen to those that have been there know the tricks what what to look for.
There are still and used to be very knowledgable posters on this forum and everyone if anyone needs to consider the Plus or Minus of buying now or in the future the listen
Buying oportunities will be there and they may today,or next year as someones negative equity is someone elses gain. (or further loss) 😉Just Frank 8)
Spain is a lovely Country with lovely people but as always with transactions involving property ensure you seek good independent advice 😉
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@katy wrote:
Fuengi said this is blatantly racist statement
Don’t be so ridiculous, that is outrageous to bring in the race card 😈 Who else should we blame for Spain’s downfall…a handful of crooked British Estate Agents. They played a very small part in the scheme of things. You say the Junta isn’t corrupt 🙄 I know you haven’t been in the country very long but I think you need to follow the news a little more.
just to go off topic briefly. Katy of course the statement was racist. You might not have meant it as such, but you refers to a group of people that are catergorised as a race, and made a prejudicial remark.
I’m not blaming english estate agents or spanish for that matter. Several of the local municipalities were corrupt and this has been proven in a court of law. and this corruption attracted the corrupt. Regardless of nationality/ethnicity.
@katy wrote:
Chaves is often accused of corruption in the Spanish media. He employs at least 9 members of his family in high positions, not to mention his cronies. There have been rumours in the press that he has huge amounts in personal bank accounts.
accusations do not equal fact. also employing family and ‘cronies’ is not corruption, its is nepotism. I’m not saying there might not be corruption, but until proven its just hearsay.
@paul wrote:
Obviously those with a vested interest such as some agents, just don’t like the truth to out and so will try and take the topic way off-course.
I assume this refers to Just Frank and probably myself. Unfortuntately most threads seem to go off-topic, will try not to be the cause of it promise!
I have no vested interest in off-plans, and think it was generally a foolish proposition. If anything I’d like to see most of them knocked down (not going to happen i know) as they were solely bought to flip and not as homes or even holiday homes. the people should of boughts shares instead….or maybe not….@just frank wrote:
In short in the last 6 years very few if anyone has made money from Off-Plan so BIG advice is to not risk it.
I disagree. Many people have made alot of money. BUT I’m not refering to properties that certain agents done they’re whole flyby inspections visits, etc… with all the wonderful graphs showing how much money we are all going to make.
The only developments that offered astronomical commissions were the ones that could not sell the stoke themselves due to lack of interest. I’ve known a few developments that offered 3% commissions because they were in locations that there was real (not artificial) demand for and knew that they would be able to sell them themselves.
a think a good example would be some of these developments that are being pushed now more inland. Before certain agencies got involved they were sellign at 120.000 and they are on for 160.000 and above. What do you think the agency is making??
And to the uniformed the properties look like bargains compared to many costal areas, but when/they attempt to re-sell them they are going o lose ALOT of money.
The only off-plan properties that i’ve seen where there is deamnd and can be worthwhile at the moment are VPOs (subsidized housing) as the mortgages are very low and are affordable to a large demographic. And in the long term can/might be declassified and sold at market prices. -
What the hell difference is it to anyone what side Frank is on its none of anyones business.
Anyone posting on an open forum invites comment. If you do not want your views to be “anyones business” don’t post them. Unfortunately, ralita’s comments are very true Frank. You’ve reverted to your old self. 🙁
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Hi Ralita. 😀
Thought you had given up the forums.
Nah. Nothing changes on the forum bit like Coronation Street you can miss many episodes but is easy to catch up.
Well we have moved on a little when we say” What the hell.” 😈
You have assumed I was directing this at a particular person when I am not.
As I said previous it takes ole Frank to get the threads moving as look at the interest,the hits and postings
As long as it dosent get personal it can only be good for The Spanish Property Insight.
Even you come out or retirement so I am flattered that there is so much interest in me.Remind me. How is your property or properties doing in Spain. 😉
Just Frank 8)
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As I said previous it takes ole Frank to get the threads moving as look at the interest,the hits and postings .
As long as it dosent get personal it can only be good for The Spanish Property Insight.
Even you come out or retirement so I am flattered that there is so much interest in me.❗ I know your problem now Frank. Attention Deficit Disorder. 😉
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Would this be a good buy?
http://www.nubricks.com/archives/1364/villa-tranquilo-in-marbellas-reserva-el-madronal/ -
@goodstich44 wrote:
perhaps it’s time you started blaming Spanish and UK agents!, along with corrupt lawyers, developers, councils, government?. That’s nothing to be ashamed off. How much more evidence do you want?
errr… I have/do. hell my last post had the following in the first paragraph:
“everal of the local municipalities were corrupt and this has been proven in a court of law. and this corruption attracted the corrupt.” That pretty much covered the agents, developers, local council (municipalities). Buyers & vendors trying to declare less, etc…. And of course lawyers, or better said property lawyers.and as i previously mentioned aswell about corruption in Marbella, many knew about it, even if the buyers coming down on inspection visits did’nt. Why because it had been a ongoing case going on in the courts that had been dragging on for years, due to the breaking of the old pgou.
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Tony Blair and his wife have £5million in mortgage debts on their five properties, all on his £160,000 salary when he was PM, along with her undeclared earnings as a barrister. Churchill didn’t take a penny in salary during the war and had to rely on his friends to buy Chartwell for him.
Politicians, in the main, have their snouts in the trough, they break the rules that they impose on us, they exempt themselves and their cronies from tax charges that we would go to prison for if we even attempted to evade them.
I don’t blame the more switched on UK residents who spend half of the year in their property in Spain from avoiding (do not confuse with evading) IHT, Worldwide Wealth Declarations and Capital Gains Tax, yes it can be done quite legally.
So surprise, surprise, Spanish politicions are bent, I would never have guessed it. 😆
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Fuengi
i was refering to the previous part of the thread saying you don’t blame UK or Spanish agents.
crookesey
we are talking buying property in Spain though. The corruption is horrendous compared to the ‘less than perfect’ but nevertheless brilliant common sense approach we have in comparison in the UK.
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@katy wrote:
Frank, I have posted some nice things about living here, even put on some photos. If the readers really want to read the good stuff there must be a 1000 (at least) Estate Agents websites writing about Spain, it’s not my job!
Some of the things I whinge about is because if the Spanish people don’t halt the mess, things will just go down further. I have considerable property investment here too don’t forget. If you have read all my posts you will know that my Grandfather was Spanish, albiet an Anglophile. (he met my Grandmother and stayed in the UK although he had a place here too). I am reasonably fluent in Spanish and I will say again, the main people to blame for what has happened here is the Spanish, they are corrupt from the top down and don’t care what happens to a few foreigners The British Estate Agents just tagged along for the ride.
This is NOT racist, if you wanted to split hairs the “they” could be changed to “most”. Not just on the CDS., all over Spain/Baleares/canarias there are corruption cases going on. Now stop trying to change the Agenda. I reiterate, because so few Spanish are affected by the property scandal the average person in the Street cares little. Remember, Marbella voted the same people in time after time, even when everyone knew what was going on.
As for making a profit off-plan: my opinion is that very few did so after 2000/1. Actually, it doesn’t matter now does it? We are in the present and the off-plan pyramid selling is dead. Whatever the Agents may try to say.
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Claire
Nope nothing has changed.
Still have a brain of my own.
Still hate one sided posters who wont accept that we have views and the reason so many excellent posters have now gone.
Still support those in the legal sytem in Spain who fight for change.
Still trying to get this thread back on course before it hits the Take It Outside Thread or someone gets banned after being set up 😉
Still help anyone I can.
Still think the Brits were as corrupt as the Spanish and why they are starting to dislike us as we are so arrogant and blame everyone but ourselves.
Think we have a good new poster on this thread that speaks his/her mind in an open as honest manner and is not agreeing for agreeing sake.Still dont want to upset you in anyway,shape or form and wonder just why ?
Nah . Nothing has changed? Nothing ever will 😥
Just Frank 8)
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@goodstich44 wrote:
Fuengi
i was refering to the previous part of the thread saying you don’t blame UK or Spanish agents.
ahh ok. What i meant to say is i don’t specifically blame the english agents or the spanish agents. I just blame those agents that done the dirty.
@ katy.
trying to change the agenda???? Not trying to but please refrain from making generalisations about entire nations of people please. MOst of the blame for the corruption is due to the spanish. OF COURSE IT IS. WE ARE IN SPAIN! Nearly all the developers/officials/lawyers are spanish. But refering to all or most of spanish as (insert comment) is seen as a racist comment. That is racism by all definitions. This can be both positive or negative by the way.
And no of course the spanish don’t care what happens to a few foreigners. We are generally an evil lot, that just want to steal your money!@katy wrote:
As for making a profit off-plan: my opinion is that very few did so after 2000/1. Actually, it doesn’t matter now does it? We are in the present and the off-plan pyramid selling is dead. Whatever the Agents may try to say.
I’m not basing what i say on opinion. Even taking into account the decrease in prices in many areas, properties can still sell higher than the 2001 prices. But again if we are refering to those wonderful 10% developments then is a lot less likely as they, in my opinion, were not well priced when oringially sold, and most were in bad locatins. And god help anyone who bought an off-plan in 2005.
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Just Frank wrote:Still trying to get this thread back on course before it hits the Take It Outside Thread or someone gets banned after being set up 😉
This was a nice and informative Forum before you started posting. I am not sure what your agenda is.
If I were Mark, I would have banned you long ago.
Anyway, see you in another couple of months.
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@ralita wrote:
@Just Frank wrote:
Still trying to get this thread back on course before it hits the Take It Outside Thread or someone gets banned after being set up 😉
This was a nice and informative Forum before you started posting. I am not sure what your agenda is.
If I were Mark, I would have banned you long ago.
Anyway, see you in another couple of months.
if anything its a shame there is no agent on here trying to prove that off-plans are a good proposition. The whole point of spanish property insight would be to have an insightful debate into the pros and cons. And maybe a bit of analysis of current market trends.
But as we all think off-plans a suicide, we can only agree with each other, and nitpick over others issues.
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Ralita
No of poster 127 Posters. I was no 9. 🙂
2427 Hits in a very short time. 😉Just look at the hits and postings on the the buying on the Costas now
Great interest and the best for a long time 😉
Flosmicheal
You posted 😀
“And maybe a bit of analysis of current market trends.”
That would be great. I am extremely curious to know the actual situation in November 2008.”
NOW DOSENT THAT BEAT KICKING THE CRAP OUT OF SPAIN AND ITS PEOPLE 😉Sorry Ralita. You dont have property do you as if I recall right and the next 2 week holiday is due in Spain so hopefull you can join in again when the ole memory banks get charged.
Now as you can now see others are trying to get the forum back on track so why not join in instead of having a pop at me theirs a dear 😉
As I said looks like nuffin changes and the Ban is being set up again
Save you guys reporting me as next time its fer life. 😯So will bid you all farewell 😉
Just Frank 8)
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give me strength!!
nobody is kicking Spain or it’s people on the whole, just those involved with the building boom (uk and Spanish) who have conned so many, and those who don’t regulate against them or don’t serve justice to those wronged by them.
farewell Frank. Don’t rush back!
flosmichael
me as well…….doesn’t sound bad where katy is!
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Havent gone yet 😉
Shall we all write nice things about Spain so that people looking for information on the forum also get conned
the main people to blame for what has happened here is the Spanish, they are corrupt from the top down and don’t care what happens to a few foreigners.
Fuengi said this is blatantly racist statement
just to go off topic briefly. Katy of course the statement was racist. You might not have meant it as such, but you refers to a group of people that are catergorised as a race, and made a prejudicial remark.
People went to Spain hoping it was a EU country.
But there are some aspects which do not function like they should in a civilised country.
What do the Brits consider is civilised
Have you not read the news this week in the good ole U.K.Just Frank 8)
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Spain is a EU country and it is rotten and corrupt. Racist so be it, introduced by a couple of posters who have lost the arguement so they bring in the race card.
I could actually say that Spain is a great place because I have a legal property (and afford to actually live in it). I don’t care a toss if you think I am racist or not. One thing I do know I thank the powers that be that I have never had the need nor the desire to be an Estate Agent. They don’t have a very good reputation in the UK either.
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@katy wrote:
Spain is a EU country and it is rotten and corrupt. Racist so be it, introduced by a couple of posters who have lost the arguement so they bring in the race card.
according to transparency international of 179 nations spain ranks 25th. Of the EU nations, most do beat spain, eastern europe ranks lower so does italy, portugal, greece, malta and cyprus.
The ‘race card’ was only brought in when that previous statement was made. AND about losing hte argument, no one (well not me anyway) was arguing with you anyway.
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@Claire wrote:
I read some stupid comments on this forum, but the “racist” one counts as one of the most ridiculous ones.
why? I’m actually suprised most people don’t see how the sentence could not be construed as racist. I’m sure it was not meant as such. If the sentence had refered to ‘all blacks’ or ‘all chinese’ on most forum people would have attacked it as racist.
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Im reasonably new to SPI I joined when as a result of corrupt practices I was left with no property legal or otherwise and currently around K100 euros down. Now that is real negative equity.
This has nothing to do with race a robbing b/////d is a robbing b/////d in any language in any country I dont see myself as a British victim, simply a victim of criminal acts and corrupt practices by a number of professional people. Age, Race, occupation, colour or any other identifying tag does not make any difference to my depleted bank balance. -
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@Claire wrote:
Perhaps people with such sensitivities or who are so “PC” shouldn’t be posting on a public forum then 🙂
or people who claim to be better should show it?
I just don’t see what so hard about showing common decency for other peoples. Maybe its a generation thing (i think i’m the youngest poster on here)@vilprano wrote:
Im reasonably new to SPI I joined when as a result of corrupt practices I was left with no property legal or otherwise and currently around K100 euros down. Now that is real negative equity.
This has nothing to do with race a robbing b/////d is a robbing b/////d in any language in any country I dont see myself as a British victim, simply a victim of criminal acts and corrupt practices by a number of professional people.i’m sorry to here that. What happened if you don’t mind me asking.
Age, Race, occupation, colour or any other identifying tag does not make any difference to my depleted bank balance.[/quote]
I wish more could think the way you do. a crook is a crook.
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We were purchasing on grupo location site in Lllos LLanos in Zurgena.
All licences in place from town hall. Site declared illegal and building stopped. Builders New Medina Villa filed for suspension of payments.
Parador in liquidation. Legal advisors were useless.
Now have new solicitor and taking action. -
@vilprano wrote:
We were purchasing on grupo location site in Lllos LLanos in Zurgena.
All licences in place from town hall. Site declared illegal and building stopped. Builders New Medina Villa filed for suspension of payments.
Parador in liquidation. Legal advisors were useless.
Now have new solicitor and taking action.❗
I think goodstich was/is in a very similar situation. might be worth PMing him.
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Fuengi , with respect to you, how can one show decency to the people who shat on you from a great height? Feelings would be the same if they were black/white/ or came from any other country/continent in the world.
The Spanish equivalent of Joe Bloggs is, IMO, great. We’ve always found the Spanish to be lovely people. Spain is lovely too. Shame the “property” world screwed it all up. It is only this sector that I personally refer to. -
@Fuengi wrote:
@vilprano wrote:
We were purchasing on grupo location site in Lllos LLanos in Zurgena.
All licences in place from town hall. Site declared illegal and building stopped. Builders New Medina Villa filed for suspension of payments.
Parador in liquidation. Legal advisors were useless.
Now have new solicitor and taking action.❗
I think goodstich was/is in a very similar situation. might be worth PMing him.
Most people were/are in a similar situation. Hence the strong feelings.
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@Claire wrote:
Fuengi , with respect to you, how can one show decency to the people who shat on you from a great height? Feelings would be the same if they were black/white/ or came from any other country/continent in the world.
The Spanish equivalent of Joe Bloggs is, IMO, great. We’ve always found the Spanish to be lovely people. Spain is lovely too. Shame the “property” world screwed it all up. It is only this sector that I personally refer to.Claire you seem to misunderstand me. Yes there are plenty of corrupt officials in spain. Only need to pick up the newspaper. No decency should be showed to them and
My problem is only when people say its the spanish fault and they are corrupt. Even with all the damage done in spain, its has still be done by a corrupt minority not by 45 million people.
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and i did’nt scream racism, because of claims of corruption, only made a comment that the statement itself was racist.
its like when just frank talks about people buying off-plans doing at of greed. Let’s be honest, many did buy to flip, but many did not. And of those that did not, the fact you would be able to make money on the purchase would have played a small factor in the purchase. So sweeping statements about british buyers being greedy is just wrong!
It’s the same as estate agents. Yes there have been many rotten apples down here, but we are not all the same. Some are fully compliant with the laws, don’t touch properties/developments that can’t supply all necessary paperwork, etc…. Hell a vendor in fuengirola has given me powers to sign a private contract on his behalf! I like to think i’ve earned this trust, and have involved him on the sale through every single step as you should expect from an estate agent.
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Claire 🙂
You posted
In answer tp Fuengi“I think anyone with half a brain realises that Fuengi! “
Then why all of the arguments ! because as has been said we all agree on the basics and perhaps making arguments that really perhaps are not needed on minor issues which are now getting blown out of proportion.
I for one totally agree with You,Katy and Goodstich44 in relation to the corruption as always have as well you know.
Now the whole of Spain cant be anymore accountable for the corruption any more than the whole Britain can be accused of helping the problem along the way.
Putting labels on whole Countries is clearly not the way forward and hopefully you will agree
Both are extremes and there it should end.
So why cant we just agree that we have all made the points and move on.Kind Regards
Just Dan -
So why cant we just agree that we have all made the points and move on.
I will “move on” when the people who are legally owed money by corrupt developers get their money back. Meanwhile I will continue to condemn the people responsible for the injustice that is rampant in Spain.
I will not do what you do and that is, defend Spain against British people(or any other nationality) that has fallen victim to the wholesale corruption. My loyalties lie with my fellow countrymen. Hence I accused you of “running with the hare and hunting with the hounds”. This is the meaning of this phrase:
It means trying to support two opposing causes/aims at the same time – clearly very difficult or impossible.
I would say it is impossible, if you are true to yourself and want to remain credible. -
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Frank nothing I have written is insulting. It (“running with the hare and hunting with the hounds”.) is a phrase, part of the English language.
As you say its clear that neither of us have changed ?
Ummm, I didn’t say that.
😕 It is you who has not changed. I was naive to think/hope that you had.
G’night 🙂 -
Some of the Spanish people are corrupt, they are usually the people that count. Judges, Lawyers, Developers, Politicians. There are also some corrupt people in the UK. some who came over to Spain to earn good money by selling illegal/non-existant property to fellow Brits. Some were not exactly intentionally ripping off other Brits. I know many who came out and were selling property after being in the country for two weeks. Ex-car sales workers (infact ex-anything). What they were guilty of is burying their heads in the sand. They were either thick or didn’t want to know. Other British Agents actually set out to cheat. Mainly, but not exclusively the ones who advertised and ran inspection trips from the UK.
This was the background, a virtual free for all. But, we are discussing illegal matters that happened in Spain. None of this could have happened without the incompetence, or downright corruption of Lawyers. Read this forum and some others, all used Lawyers…Spanish Lawyers. Of course there are some honest and good ones, I had one who has retired.
Then we have some agents posting on here quoting examples such as “A client who I sold a property to last week” which I know in 99% of posts is just bullshit. The punters are not around now, privately Agents are saying it but on here some of the posts I can smell the fear and desperation. Hence some are now coming out with posts about unfair comments and racism. So who do the people who have been defrauded blame? some “greedy” British. Bit of inverted racism there don’t you think 🙄
It is getting to sound like a wife battering husband who tells everyone that she asked for it 👿
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Im watching these posts with interest and just in case people get the totally wrong idea, the buyers market is not dead. There are actually quite a few buyers around, who can buy without needing to fully leverage their purchase.
Most (the sensible ones) are waiting to see how far a particular property will drop before making a lower offer and driving a hard bargain.
This includes Spanish, English and Irish buyers, not forgetting northern europeans as well.
Location will out and in several cases the sellers dont need to sell and therefore remove their property from the market, or sit there refusing offers.
Some banks are offering to cancell out the mortgages on them in return for the keys with no debts for the owners, they just lose their equity in the property, so banks will sit with a lot of stock, many they are renting back out to the private sector.
Other properties may/will eventually be repossessed and then filter through the auction mafia to the open market, but wont be worth the bother.
More and more large drops are being seen, although most go without the general public being informed.
More will be seen in a couple of years.
Interesting times indeed.
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katy:
You are right to point out that it was the Spanish developers who were corrupt but the reason they got away with it is because UK agents sold their properties. Without the Brits it couldn’t have happened.
The majority of British buyers didn’t use local spanish estate agents, they used the companies based in the UK (large & small), they came over on the subsidised inspection trips & used whatever services those companies offered regarding lawyers.
Whilst you are also right to say the posters on this forum used Spanish lawyers, there are many reports in the press about buyers who didn’t use any lawyer (Spanish or UK) bcause the UK estate agent ‘took care of that side’.
I’m not trying to defend the Spanish (although not all are corrupt), but blame has to be allocated to the British agents as well. Neither party could have done this on their own, they needed each other.
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rob6578
yes, UK agents are very much to blame also. I think the point most are making, is that the con-men, crooks, cheats etc, can only prosper if regulation is not in place to stop them. As we now know, the Spanish property industry is corrupt pretty much from top to bottom, and any crook who can take advantage of this has, and is doing so.
I understand the frustration of the good UK and Spanish agents, lawyers etc, some who post on here, but it’s clear that the Spanish authorities are in no rush to clean up their act without force/pressure from the outside world, and sadly that pressure is bound to tar many with the same brush. What’s the alternative though, sit back and watch many more get conned?
If there was any justice, the good guys would prosper at the expense of the crooks, as would all of us who have been conned out of large sums of money. Until those who can change the system, do so though, it’s hard to see the end of the dark days for Spain.
Claire
your ‘Hare and Hounds’ thing is so true. If anyone can’t 100% support those who have clearly been conned, then they might as well be supporting the bad guys. Katy’s ‘wife bashing’ is again, a very good example of a similar attitude.
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@goodstich44 wrote:
rob6578
yes, UK agents are very much to blame also. I think the point most are making, is that the con-men, crooks, cheats etc, can only prosper if regulation is not in place to stop them. As we now know, the Spanish property industry is corrupt pretty much from top to bottom, and any crook who can take advantage of this has, and is doing so.
Claire
your ‘Hare and Hounds’ thing is so true. If anyone can’t 100% support those who have clearly been conned, then they might as well be supporting the bad guys. Katy’s ‘wife bashing’ is again, a very good example of a similar attitude.
Yes, this was my point (until I got distracted by stupid racism comments. I am staring to ramble like Frank 😉 ) The bottom line is that Spain is to blame.
I read that investment by British companies fell by 32.5% last year. Not property, mainly telecommunications and other industries. This was before the crunch. British co’s in Spain employ 100,000 Spanish. Seems as if they are getting fed up of Spanish practices too.
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Hi.
Its dig at Frank time again .YAAaaawn
Claire.
Yep. I run with the hare and the hounds. Happy 😀
I am not going down the road of trying to answer allegations made or defend my veiws.
Think of me what you will.
Best if we ignore each others postings.
Claire .Please be assured I have no intention of being drawn into any situation that may bring the editor to intervene and warn us both as in the past.Goodstich44. Yep
I just give up with replying to your posts as was once said I do hope you get your success in court so some valued posters who left to protect their sanity may return.Katy
Not sure what you have against Estate Agents and against the Spanish People on on that shall we agree to ignore each others postings as we have nothing in common.As we clearly do not share anything in common other than ones that have been pointed out by others regarding the fight to try to help get justice in Spain then suggest that we ignore each others postings and views.
If we do this then the threads can move on.
Just Frank 8)
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@Just Frank wrote:
As we clearly do not share anything in common other than ones that have been pointed out by others regarding the fight to try to help get justice in Spain then suggest that we ignore each others postings and views.
If we do this then the threads can move on.
Just Frank 8)
Everybody was happy yesterday when you promised to leave this Forum alone.
Then you unpleasantly surprise us… -
So, in a nutshell then, it is so easy for people to misled in Spain and many other foreign countries by dodgy Estate Agents and Developers plus their ‘recommended’ lawyers.
Even buying elsewhere than in Spain, the same agents are operating and will often mislead people, even when hiding behind the likes of AIPP and FOPDAC so don’t trust these membership schemes either.
Spain could definitely have sorted most of their property corruption out years ago if it’s own Gov’t wasn’t implicated in it for greed reasons. Spain has now shot itself in the foot over this issue.
I’d rather people didn’t fall for these scams and be made constantly aware of them, Negative Equity is the likely outcome if you believe the hype in Spain and elsewhere.
Out of interest though, you can now get 40% discounts from distressed Developers in the UK, and rather more legal protection than doesn’t take forever. 😉
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Flosmicheal
My post includes holiday makers such as you. 🙂
The perfect material for clonning. 😉While some dont agree with my views others do and I will post IF I can help in matters in Spain that I am involved with and do my best to work with those in Spain and the U.K that are working to help make a difference.
On this matter as I have said Murcia Courts appear to be getting their act in order and cases being won IF the information I have is correct.
In some cases its possible to have cases transfered there.Now shall we get back to the thread in question regarding negative equity in the Spanish Property Market.
Inez.Valuable information for many looking at their options .
Just Frank 8)
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@Just Frank wrote:
…..On this matter as I have said Murcia Courts appear to be getting their act in order and cases being won IF the information I have is correct.
In some cases its possible to have cases transfered there……Just Frank 8)
Hello Frank
I think I’ve seen the posts you mention, & very surprised at how fast & easy it’s been made to sound ❗
If you check your Purchase Contract, I think you’ll find it specifically states which court that any possible litigation would be heard in.
But maybe not? Many do. -
@katy wrote:
Yes, this was my point (until I got distracted by stupid racism comments. I am staring to ramble like Frank 😉 ) The bottom line is that Spain is to blame.
then don’t make racist statements.
of course spain is to blame. It did happen here afterall.
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at the end of the day this site is meant to be informative, not only for the posters but for the people that read it.
Yes we all know con-men, etc… So what should be done and how can future buyers/seller be prepared?
This thread started of well with recommendation on what to do and why off-plan is a nightmare at the moment. -
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Fuengi
future buyers need to first make sure they have lawyer worth his salt, and then not part with a Euro (or at the most a very small returnable deposit) until the place is finished, with all licences in place, and contracts that read something like ‘ if any fault regarding any building, quality or planning issues are found to be at fault during the next 10 years, it will not be the responsability of the buyer to make good’, but that of the builder/lawyer/council etc.
would anyone buy off-plan now without something like that i wonder?, and would any builders be prepared or able to fund it, and guarantee it?
trouble is, with so little faith in Spanish justice, is the best contract, with the best lawyer still worth it, when justice might not be served in the courtroom, if a big enough brown envelope system still exists?
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@Paul wrote:
This person is looking at off-plan property advertised for 400k euros.
It includes agent’s commission of 10% (could well be double that), so the property is actually valued at approx 360K euros.
Completion costs will add approx 44k euros to the 400k euros, so purchase price is approx 444k for something worth 360k. Then add interest lost on your 60-70% stage payments, probably another 10-15k euros, now you’re up to 470k plus your transfer costs, plus Sterling is poor against euros.
interstingly there were in the past and present alot of developments that only offered 3% commissions and were very flexible with their stage payments. allowing you to pay after a 6.000€ deposit the remainding 20/30% over a monthly basis.
Of course these were not in locations that the flyby agents were interested in marketing, but they were around. -
The only guarantee to induce me to buy off-plan (maybe not ever) would be to have an insurance Policy underwritten by Lloyds with very little small print.
I have just looked back to refresh myself what Paul posted when he started this thread..Negative Equity. I agree with his post. Same could be said for resales too. Maybe Zapatero should think about lowering some of the fees and taxes to help kick start the market. All are so high it would be impossible to make a profit unless resident.
For anyone thinking of moving up the market there is sales commission (5%) plus about 2% taxes fees etc. Add 18% capital gains (if any) then oncosts to buy another property (10%) would mean having to pay about 25% more to buy a property of the same value as the one sold.
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@katy wrote:
I have just looked back to refresh myself what Paul posted when he started this thread..Negative Equity. I agree with his post. Same could be said for resales too. Maybe Zapatero should think about lowering some of the fees and taxes to help kick start the market. All are so high it would be impossible to make a profit unless resident.
I think I heard a romour that it was being discussed. I believe taxes are already lower if you are under 35 and are being below 170.000 or was it 150.000. instead of being 10/11% i think its 7/8%
The Gov. should drop the transfer tax to say 2%, but i think its more likely goodstich and just frank will kiss and make up before that happens 😉
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katy/Fuengi
as we are part of europe, i wonder if standardisation of contracts, and to some degree fees for legal issues could be implemented?. I very much doubt it?
for all our other faults in the UK, buying residential and industrial property has been a dream for me in the UK, compared to our nightmare in Spain. It shouldn’t have to be that way!
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@goodstich44 wrote:
katy/Fuengi
as we are part of europe, i wonder if standardisation of contracts, and to some degree fees for legal issues could be implemented?. I very much doubt it?
for all our other faults in the UK, buying residential and industrial property has been a dream for me in the UK, compared to our nightmare in Spain. It shouldn’t have to be that way!
not a chance. or at least not for a long time to come. Laws would have to be standardised alot more first, which is slowly happening. different tax regimes, vested interests, etc…
As more cross border merger happen maybe an overidding EU contract might come into existance, but would some sort of national appendage to satisfy national governments
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Hi Suzanne 😀
You posted
Hello Frank
I think I’ve seen the posts you mention, & very surprised at how fast & easy it’s been made to sound
If you check your Purchase Contract, I think you’ll find it specifically states which court that any possible litigation would be heard in.
But maybe not? Many do.TAKE OURS DONT THEN 😥
Just Frank 8)
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That’s a good point Fuengi about deals offered on some developments.
Could be that now some Developers are only offering 3% comms. and better payment terms knowing that the market is so bad, I suppose these will be large difficult to shift developments. Sooner or later the Spanish will have to change their system of large deposits and stage payments if buyers resist en-masse.
In their heyday, Ocean Estates were getting as much as 30% on some developments, and at least 10-20% generally, so imagine the negative equity on those.
My advice would be to avoid any stage payments altogether other than a max of 10% down Balance on completion as in the UK. Also, get in writing the commission included in the price and make it a condition of contract if found to be otherwise, and a legally binding specification list as well as ‘no loss of view’ if that’s what the agent says to shift the property.
Better still, don’t buy yet while the exchange rate is so poor! 😉
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Paul
with sales 93% down on last year on the CDS, i think most have taken your last bit of advice!
Even with a better exchange rate and and an end of recession, i think many will be very wary without substantial further price cuts. I also think Spain has to adopt a situation where the buyer is in control, and not be at the mercy of those agents/developers/lawyers, who only thrive due to knowing they can get away with daylight robbery!
Until buying in Spain is considered something like as safe as buying in the UK, with regards to corruption/regulation/justice, and contracts worth the paper they are written on, it’s hard to see many wishing to risk their money?
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Hi Paul,
You are sooo wrong about the purchase costs/commissions. A good developer like Taylor Woodrow, which was a good investment for years, paid only 5% commission to the agents it dealt with. Your claims of 20/30% to agents like Ocean is just wrong.
After all these years you still cant get over yourself can you??? Move on.
There are people in this crisis suffering far worse than you ever did.
Right now, I would not buy off-plan. But a good resale in a great location, at the right price, yes. Spain will still have a demand, but when you take a short term view on investments, that’s when you loose out. Property should be viewed minimum 3 years. 5-7 is better. Paul just wanted a quick buck
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Everyone is loosing money. It just annoys me when some are loosing their homes, my family members being threatened with repossession, and members like Paul keep grinding the same old axe when they made money here in Spain.
It’s as if he wont be happy until everyone looses. He made money and has the cheek to complain when others are genuinly in a bad state 😥 👿
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@Joe wrote:
Everyone is loosing money. It just annoys me when some are loosing their homes, :
It is “losing money” and “losing their homes”.
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Joe
to be fair, i’m not aware of Paul’s buying history, but he seems to know where the faults lie, and just why the Spanish property market’s in the mess it is. Unlike some like Frank, who despite being conned himself, would still rather blame those who have been swindled, ”for being in it for a fast buck”, rather than the swindlers themselves for being crooks!.
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No Frank wouldnt
He only blames those in it for a quick buck and there were thousands
He fully supports all the genuine case of being conned.
He fully backs this up by helping as many as he can and not just banging the same ole drum when no ones listening anymore.
Regards as to if Frank has been conned is something he deals with instead of moaning about poor ole me. 🙁
Conmen,liars ,cheats scumbags, right from wrong.which side are you on
Gawd 😯 ( does yer head in)
Move on and do something useful 😉Just Frank 8)
P.S. Thought we agreed to ignore each others postings as we have only one thing in common and thats the fight for justice but for some reason that just doesnt sink in after all of these years. 😕
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@Paul wrote:
That’s a good point Fuengi about deals offered on some developments.
Could be that now some Developers are only offering 3% comms. and better payment terms knowing that the market is so bad, I suppose these will be large difficult to shift developments. Sooner or later the Spanish will have to change their system of large deposits and stage payments if buyers resist en-masse.
as far as i know, and i admit i could be wrong, the whole large large deposit and high stage payments is not a spanish system. Spanish developers that catered to natives always offered the same thing. Its only seems that because of agecnies like ocean that this system became more common.
Also, have you always noticed, maybe not, the crappier the location of the developer, the higher the commission.
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@goodstich44 wrote:
Even with a better exchange rate and and an end of recession, i think many will be very wary without substantial further price cuts. I also think Spain has to adopt a situation where the buyer is in control, and not be at the mercy of those agents/developers/lawyers, who only thrive due to knowing they can get away with daylight robbery!
decree 218? That is the whole point of that administrative law. Or at least that is the point of the decree. It needs to be enforced, and buyers need to know their rights!
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@Joe wrote:
You are sooo wrong about the purchase costs/commissions. A good developer like Taylor Woodrow, which was a good investment for years, paid only 5% commission to the agents it dealt with. Your claims of 20/30% to agents like Ocean is just wrong.
unfortunately Joe, he’s not that far off. You are of course right that only a few developers/agents did this. But they were big/successful enough that it has put alot of people in a bad position.
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Hi
Posted
“Also, have you always noticed, maybe not, the crappier the location of the developer, the higher the commission.”Yep most of the brit agents would go for the crappier locations and this includes High Street names.
Then the bent lawyer would be in place and then on it goes.
Usually they were selling timeshare/mobile phones or dodgey cars the week before and didnt even know their way around and in many cases couldnt even find some of the developments they were supposed to be off loading of their own fellow countrymen.
The only good thing to come out of this is that Aifos didnt pay that well so many U.K agents kept away from them.
Sadly not enough however.
However as always the real good agents would have the buyers interest to take into account as stitching someone up is a short term game in any business…..
To be good agent everyone needs to be happy with the deal 😉Just Frank 8)
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😕 I cant comment on other area’s of Spain, as my fmaily only had concerns in Costa Del Sol.
Having done alot of research, the average commission was 6%. True, some agencies like Ocean, ADH, VIVA, MRI and KS got higher rates from exclusives, but I would not be far wrong to suggest more than 10%. 12% maybe for MRI and ADH.
As often happens, we loose our way on these threads. The conditions of this market are in some way a result of people like Paul wanting to make a quick profit. Do you go to the bank and ask for 10% in 1 year or less? No, because you wont get it.
Investments are risky, and property should always bee looked at, as I said, minimum 3 years. Otherwise you inflate the prices with too many speculators. Speculators have helped to caused the crisis in the market, and are moaning when they do not make their money as quickly!!! What about the guys threatened with court action?
Costa Blanca is a different matter, would never go there to invest, just holiday.
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@Joe wrote:
😕 I cant comment on other area’s of Spain, as my fmaily only had concerns in Costa Del Sol.
Having done alot of research, the average commission was 6%. True, some agencies like Ocean, ADH, VIVA, MRI and KS got higher rates from exclusives, but I would not be far wrong to suggest more than 10%. 12% maybe for MRI and ADH.
I do work for an agency and many developers did offer developments on the costa del sol at 3%. A vast majority offered a maximum of 5%.
Several developers, including arenal offered sliding scales, where it started at 5%, if you did 3 in a month, wnet up to 6%, if you did 5 offered you 7%, etc…
The larger agencies did get higher commissions. They got this because they could promise to bring x amount of clients to them each month (whether the clients wanted to see the development, seem to be unimportant).
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Joe
You posted
I would not be far wrong to suggest more than 10%. 12% maybe for MRI and ADH.Try Ocean View.
Investment experts regulated by the F.S.A in the good ole U.K.
Properties 20 to 30 % overvalued to pay massive commissions down the line.
Properties that wont even get built,no bank guarantees/habitation licences and those properties that were completed are way down on promised specification
Massive negative equity from day one and they say that Spain is corrupt 👿FOR THAT MATTER WHO RAN THE MOST CORRUPT R.E.As ON THE COASTS. 😯
Just Frank 8)
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@Just Frank wrote:
FOR THAT MATTER WHO RAN THE MOST CORRUPT R.E.As ON THE COASTS. 😯
Just Frank 8)
A better question would be: who prepared those nasty corrupt REA to cheat and con some many people? Did they attend psychology classes?
Can younger generation be educated such that they will not fall prey to crooks and criminals?
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Flosmicheal
You posted“A better question would be: who prepared those nasty corrupt REA to cheat and con some many people? Did they attend psychology classes?”
Lost a little on that one. 😕
However to clarify
Who owed the companies that employed the agents to con their own countrymen who trusted them.
Who are the ones that were paid the highest commision as they sold the crap to family and friends.
The very ones that plunged their own into negative equity that due to location will almost never be any different.
Who were the ones in the Spanish pubs at the end of the day bragging how they set up old people to re-morgage their homes and use their pensions on a bum development that may not even be built.Yep the very ones that lead them to the corrupt developers solictors who could be trusted not to comply with the law
Dont ask questions as the deal would go belly up so no fat commisions and no brown paper bag for the lawyerIn case your having problems I think you will find that almost all were from the good ole U.K 😯
Some then have the nerve to say its all Spains fault 👿
They then call the country un-civilised and corrupt what a bloody cheek. 😈Yes there are problems that need sorting but lets not forget who got so many in the crap in the first place.
Sooner some get off the U.K is perfect and its the Spanish that conned us on their own the better.
Then perhaps some of the Spanish Courts will then start ruling in our favour instead of what they see as ignorant Brits who were investors who were out to make money.End Of 😯
The courts simply dont care about us and I wonder why. 😯Just Frank 8)
Stick around if you really want to know how it all works
Who are the liars cheats,scumbags . -
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@katy wrote:
Did those REA’s know that the crooked, Spanish scumbag Developers were actually not going to complete the construction!
We all know that many sales people were ex car sales etc. Some didn’t even know where anything was situated on the coast let alone sell a location.
i don’t think they cared katy. Yesterday they were selling timeshare, today off-plan, tomorrow pension plans. they only cared about selling and making money, nothing else. Could have been toilet rolls for all they cared
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@Just Frank wrote:
“A better question would be: who prepared those nasty corrupt REA to cheat and con some many people? Did they attend psychology classes?”
Lost a little on that one. 😕
However to clarify
Who owed the companies that employed the agents to con their own countrymen who trusted them.
Who are the ones that were paid the highest commision as they sold the crap to family and friends.
The very ones that plunged their own into negative equity that due to location will almost never be any different.
Who were the ones in the Spanish pubs at the end of the day bragging how they set up old people to re-morgage their homes and use their pensions on a bum development that may not even be built.Stick around if you really want to know how it all works
Who are the liars cheats,scumbags .I know very well who were the liars, cheats, SOB scumbags, criminals con-men.
My question was: where did they learn to cheat on so many people? Were these scumbags extremely smart or many of the people who got conned lack financial education? -
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Flosmicheal
You have the perfect answer.
They are very smart indeed and even you would have been taken in by the company I have mentioned as were many business and proffesional people alongside the poor innocent that lost everything including their homes and their pensions
Just Frank 8)
Running with the Hare & The Hounds 😉
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Joe Neutral, for someone to personally lambast me the way you are when you don’t reveal yourself is a bit rich. I take it you are likely to be an ex Ocean Estates or similar sales person like Allison C., or one of their failing Directors perhaps, after all, if you were in the same boat as many on here who have been deceived you would be offering similar avoidance advice to new purchasers. The crooks didn’t want the party to stop.
It’s only certain agents and developers, and PB, who don’t want the truth to out and our experiences are there for all to share. Some of us have been supporting this site since it’s inception and we will continue to bang the drum for things to change.
BTW I’m not sooooo wrong about the commissions charged, Taylor Woodrow may be one fairly reputable developer who only gave 5% but the likes of Ocean were demanding and getting as much as 30% in their heyday. Would you like to look at all the S. Times articles on their tactics in Spain and Turkey, they did their research thoroughly.? 8)
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@katy wrote:
I hear a snippet on the news today that police have raided some British REA’s in Fuengirola after authorisation from British Police. Said something about an internet scam 😕 Anyone know about it? I have been out all day.
not much, just been reading about it
http://www.laopiniondemalaga.es/secciones/noticia.jsp?pRef=2008112700_2_220489__MALAGA-Investigan-estafas-inmobiliarias-cientos-ingleses-Costa
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