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A posting by Jose M. S. Alfonso on a previous topic says that the Spanish Law Profession is totally trustworthy and mentions that whilst there are rogue lawyers, there are similar in the UK and he quotes a newspaper article.
However in the expeperiences of many on this site, there appears to be far more problems encountered in Spain with lawyers who are recommended by Estate Agents.
My point in reply to Jose is this, in the Uk action is taken by the Law Society about the occasional rogue lawyer and they are barred from practice, UNLIKE in Spain where these lawyers are still able to operate it seems with impunity.
Take the cases of the 3 oft recommended lawyers by Ocean Estates who are still in practice sometimes with a new name!
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I was going to reply to Joses post in the same vain as yourself Paul.( but I did not want to offend, as I have done before on this topic. I respect Jose.) Our Lawyers in the UK are regulated, in the same way as Chartered Accountants are. ( I presume all Accountants have a governing body) They would only be unscrupulous the once, in the UK ! We would not have been so badly treated by a UK lawyer as we have by our former Spanish lawyers. They would not get away with it. I don’t ever recall anyone asking recommendations for a trustworthy lawyer in the UK. It is taken for granted that they are all OK.
The problem with the bad lawyers in Spain is as you say Paul, they continue to practice under a new name, as is the case of “our friends” 👿 😈 in Marbella. Hopefully they are soon to get their comeuppence! 🙂
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I presume the article in the Independent 21st August entitled ‘I’d heard all the horror stories about solicitors’ was the one to which Jose M. S. Alfonso was referring. If you read the article nobody was accusing UK solicitors of acting negligently, dishonestly or fraudulently just of ‘delays in the legal process’. If solicitors in the UK acted as do many Spanish lawyers they would soon find them selves in trouble with the law society.
Whilst we are quoting UK newspapers an interesting comment from this week’s Mail on Sunday property section‘99% of Spanish lawyers give the rest a bad name’ There is no smoke without fire. (I am sure Jose M. S. Alfonso falls into the smaller category.) -
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Thanks for the supportive replies, clearly things are much worse than I thought if 99% of Spanish Lawyers are giving the rest a bad name. In that case why does Senor Alfonso say that ‘it is a respectable profession in Spain’ or similar?
Since he is ‘respectable’ I wish he could explain why the rogue lawyers are still ‘allowed’ to practice, and why some are allowed to practice under ‘new’ names.
Even with all the horror stories about DVA and ‘White Whale’ involving marketing exclusively by Ocean Estates in some cases, and even with Del Valle in prison, his firm are still operating apparently as usual, and the Estate agent has not addressed this problem for it’s clients and still operate as usual too.
All this and ‘Land Grab’ too!
UK lawyers, developers, and estate agents seem like Saints in comparison to those in Spain, and at least regulated!
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@mikeyP wrote:
It’s a well known fact that unfortunately 99% of lawyers in Spain make the rest look bad.
😥
This is just ridiculous. 99% of spanish lawyers are perfectly honorable. Im a spanish lawyer. Lawyers are one of the most respected professions in Spain year after year in statistc approval.
You should avoid lawyers which are directly “imposed” by real estate agencies because it is more likely than not that they’ll have some vested interest or other.
If you have a huge british rogue estate agency on the costa del sol which always recommends the same three lawfirms just avois using their services. There are plenty of perfectly trustworthy lawyers on the costa, you just aren’t looking in the right place.
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can anyone tell me how to make a complaint about a Spanish lawyer. The law society doesnt seem to answer complaints in English.
I have spent 8 years trying to get legal permissions recognised to sell my mothers hioliday flat in Spain. The inintial difficulties were with my family lawyer in the uk, who persistently shelved the problem, despite reassurances. The flat is now finally sold- but in three months my lawyer, despite promises has yet to release the money. Other then that the problems were just horrendous
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All complaints reagarding spanish lawyers in the costa del sol should be adressed to the Colegio Oficial de Abogados de Málaga.
We have a profesional insurance for malpractice of up to E 300K or GBP 450.
I can tell you that in my lawfirm we do a detailed breakdown of all costs involved routinely, the client doesn’t even have to ask for it.
Under Law 57/68 all downpayments you make before completion are guaranteed by means of a bank guarantee or insurance company. Your lawyer must ask for this, and this is done after the signing of the contrato de arras (deposit contract) and private contract and ALWAYS before completion. It’s only a simple paper, nothing fancy and is valid for a certain timeline and only for a given amount. Pester your lawyers until you/they have it and ask them to fax a copy over to you If neccesary.
If you have complaints regarding any spanish lawyer, do not hesitate in contacting the ICAM. If you have any queries I’ll answer them in these forums.
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Thanks, Davan.
I was the seller on behalf of my mum who has dementia. My solicitor is still holding the 70 pr cent of the money from the sale- and that is possibly the least of my difficulties with this solicitor.
Does the website you gave cover the Alicante area too- I had an adress in Alicante but they dont answer emails in english and put the phone down when you ring up and ask for an english speaker
I just feel absolutely powerless
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Albeit Guest, the real estate is in Alicante, you must contact the Colegio de Abogados from that region, not the ICAM from Málaga, the Colegio de Abogados have power on their respective regions or “provincias”.
Web and phone number of Alicantes ICA:
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if I had known a site like this existed over two years ago I would have had second thoughts about putting a deposit down on an off-plan development in Spain.
I certainly would have done my research on lawyers too as they don’t seem to be trustworthy.
The market of developers/solicitors/agents appears to be awash with crooks!!!!
Why do the solicitors not think we are entitled to see what is contained in a contract before we part with our deposits? Why do they think we should not have this translated as part of the exorbitant fees they take upfront? why do the solicitors not point out the salient features which affect us and the outcome of our purchase and why do they not insist on making it an airtight contract protecting the buyer as much as the developer?
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@Tania wrote:
if I had known a site like this existed over two years ago I would have had second thoughts about putting a deposit down on an off-plan development in Spain.
I certainly would have done my research on lawyers too as they don’t seem to be trustworthy.
The market of developers/solicitors/agents appears to be awash with crooks!!!!
Why do the solicitors not think we are entitled to see what is contained in a contract before we part with our deposits? Why do they think we should not have this translated as part of the exorbitant fees they take upfront? why do the solicitors not point out the salient features which affect us and the outcome of our purchase and why do they not insist on making it an airtight contract protecting the buyer as much as the developer?
Excuse me ?
You ARE entitled to seeing what is contained in the contract before signing it and having it translated in English, we do it everyday for our clients.
Lawyers fees are not paid upfront. You pay 50% upon the signing of the private contract and 50% upon completion. That’s the unwritten general norm.
A lawyer’s duty is to defend his client, not the developer. It is clear you’ve hired lawyers with vested interests.
A lawyer normally charges 1% of the purchase price of the real estate and a minimum of 800-1000 Euros. If you resell that property you have to pay again for his fees because it is an entirely different “negocio jurídico” and that’s according to law. Notwithstanding, you may agree for the lawyer to charge you less upon the sale of the property (say 0’8-0’9%) albeit he’s not forced to do so.
If you are paying a lawyer more than 1% you are overpaying.
Those 4-5 law firms makeup for 40 lawyers in total in the province of Málaga. They amount to 1% of the legal profession. That 1% gives us 99% a tainted reputation. We are 4.000 lawyers registered in Málaga province.
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OK Drakan, perhaps you can explain this to me then.
Developers of the Green Hills , Santa Maria Golf) We are in the process of trying to recover our deposit of 118,00+euros from the Grupo Eralia company. We paid this amount 2 years ago this October. The Apartment will never be built due to the revoking of the planning license by Marbella Town Hall.
The lawyers that we used, Direct Lawyers Marbella, failed to get us a Bank Guarantee, only they did not tell us this until March of this year! Only when we demanded to see the said document did one appear dated 17th March 2005. !!! Apparently, we cannot exercise this until October 2006. Anyway, that’s another ongoing story.
After our visit to Spain in June, we appointed a new lawyer ,who was highly recommended to us. She wrote to Direct Lawyers( we have given her power of attorney) asking for all our paperwork and return of the monies outstanding in our account, which we paid to them in advance. A sum of 7412.83 Euros. We agree there have been some disbursements . Please remember , at this point, that not so much as a shovel full of earth has or ever will be moved !! This is the amount of money that is available to be returned to us…..0 Euros!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They told our new lawyer that they had paid out all the fees, taxes etc that would normally be paid out by completion!!!!!!!!
This is the breakdown:
Legal fees. Purchase………………6438.43 E ?????????????
Legal fees .Direct debits…………..348.00 E
Legal fees. 2 wills………………….556.80 E
Legal fees. Bank account……………69 ETotal fees…………………………..7412.83
Balance outstanding……………………0 Euros !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We also had 300 Euros in a bank account:25/05/05… 144.68 E payment. Wills
24/06/05…20.82 E payment. Burofax.In client account 134.50 E
We find this UNBELIEVABLE !! As do our Lawyers.
The total purchase price of the apartment we were supposed to have built was 395,926.75 euros. Also, how ethical is it for a lawyer to be “in bed” with the developer and/or the agents? How , in that case can they be 100% working for us, the clients, best interest. Also in our case, we have recently discovered that the licence was revoked in October 2003. Our contract was signed 31st October 2003. This would not have have been a snap decision, or is that another thing possible in the Spanish bureaucracy ❓ ❓ ❗ ❗
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Tania, Jon and Claire. Be wary of an English translation of these contracts!
Apart from having to pay for it (extra cost) even from your lawyer, you will find that in the event of a dispute the English translation means nothing, they then revert to the Spanish one. So it’s easy to see how specifications etc can be mis-translated and to suit the developer not the client.
Yes there must be good Spanish lawyers, the big gripe in Spain is the incestuous triangle of the Estate Agent, his ‘recommended’ lawyer, and the developer, probable ‘backhanders’ along the way. Once the client is ‘within’ that triangle he can’t get out without great difficulty.
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Hi Paul,
We have just received, on Sunday, a translation of our contract. It was done by my brother in law (English) and niece(Argentinian) It was done verbatim. Nothing untoward in it.
We were told upfront by our lawyers that a letter we need to write has to be in Spanish and that would be an extra cost to have it translated from our English version. Again, my brother in law will translate it for us. he has only just got his own PC and so that is why he has been unable to help us until now. He is a teacher to business language students.
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Paul, you’re absolutely correct.
The spanish wording is the one that matters ALWAYS because we’re in Spain. The translation (which should be done at the client’s request at NO EXTRA COST) is solely for translation purposes and should there be any discrepancy the Spanish wording ALWAYS overrules the English wording as it is most blatantly logical. This is in our Civil Code.
Indeed, If you want an exact translation you have to take it to a “Traductor Jurado” and have it stamped by him. Obviously you’ll have to pay the extra-which is alot- and it doesn’t come included in the lawyers fees, obviously. The translations I do for my clients I have to normally do them in my spare time and i’m paid no extra for them. I only do them If they specifically request it.
There is no need to have it notarised Bert (EDITED), as you write, because the Notary’s job is not to read English documents albeit Spanish ones. A Traductor Jurado is a chartered translator and once he translates and places his seal on it it is legally an exact translation regardless of any Public Notary’s stamp/seal.
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DrakAn Claire, please.
Hi Claire, I’ll do my best to address your numerous queries.
First of all:
1.- Purchase fees comes to 1% of real estate.= 3.959,27 Euros or GBP 2.639,5. If they’ve charged you more you ought to take the case to the Colegio de Abogados de Málaga and they’ll lower it. I take for granted you agreed with them their legal fees were the market’s standard 1% (Anderson lawyers charge 1.6% which is 60% above the market price for example; you can easily check it in their website; outrageous !). If you agreed upon 1.6% (= 6.438,43/395.926,75) it’s your own fault and you’ve overpaid their service (diservice). Perhaps you can still take the case to the ICAM regardeless of this. But your legal position to dispute it will be weak at best because you already signed a binding agreement to pay 1.6% to them, If it is at all your case, that is.
2.-Direct debits. Way too high. Normal is 240 euros plus 16% VAT =278 Euros.
3.- Wills, way too high. Lawyers standard fees for drafting a single Will amounts to 120 Euros besides Notarys fees. That adds up to 240 Euros in your case. Normally a discount is applicable If a client orders two Wills simultaneously (wife and husband for example), so the normal would be 220 euros instead of 240 E charged as lawyers fees for this plus 16% VAT.
4. Bank account. What is this fee ??? Lawyers cannot charge you for setting-up a bank account, it’s free. It’s the bank that charges you a fee for that. I’m apalled.A lawyer NEVER EVER pays this before completion, it is outright logical not do so and can easily be contested by Málaga’s ICA (Málagas Bar Council). You’d win for sure AND …. it’s free for you. Legally you need a Licencia de Primera Ocupación (Licence of First Dwelling) to apply for water, electricity, gas, telecommunications etc… How on earth can you pay for this If they don’t even have the Licencia de Obra yet granted by the Town Hall ? It is blatantly ilegal and you have been umm… to put it mildly… been”misled” by your own lawyers. 😯 🙄
You need the Licencia de Obra. Then with it you build the development. After it has been finished you ask (=they the developer) for the Licencia de Primera Ocupación which due to the massive workload in the costa’s townhalls can take up to a year or so. Only when the developer has this Licence of First Dwelling you can apply for electricity, water etc… They cannot charge you for this it is IMPOSSIBLE prior to the grantment by the Town Hall of said Licencia de Primera Ocupación. If you apply for it before you will be turned down by the supplying companies as enacted by Andalucías law for Consumer Protection.
Btw, this law considers home purchasers (i.e. brits) to be legally consumers and can be awarded damages. Articles 9.6, 71.2.14ª are all applicable to your case Claire.
Furthermore, Ley de Ordenación de la Edificación de Andalucía:
http://noticias.juridicas.com/base_datos/CCAA/an-l7-2002.html
ART 55.1. E)
“No podrá concederse licencia municipal de primera ocupación hasta que no estén finalizadas las obras de urbanización”
On a sidenote my clients bought with A—s in a promotion. we’ve had to wait for almost 4 years and a half. This dodgy developer failed to obtain the Licencia de Obra (Building Licence). In the contractual stipulations we had agreed that If after 12 months from the signing of the contract they failed to obtain it my clients were legally entitled to pull-out.
Lo and behold, almost five years later the same shrubs are on place in the “promotion” or development and nothing has been done. It has taken me six months to recover their monies plus 6% delay interest as ruled by article 3 of Law 57/68. A long hard fight. My clients were entitled to the full refund of monies paid up-to- date plus 6% legal delay interest. But they finally have their funds back. Phew !
Clients and most of all lawyers MUST always ask (demand is a more suitable word) for bank guarantess or insurance policy of the down payments of clients done before completion under article 1 of Law 57/68. It is their (=lawyers) job and that’s why you pay us. There is just no excuse to fail to do this. No excuse whatsoever, and can be taken and confronted before Málagas Bar Council (=ICAM) and revoke their professional lawyer’s licence in the worst case or more likely, be imposed a hefty fee by the ICAM for professional malpractice. You’d win for sure Claire, and it0’s free as I’ve highlighted already.
In fact article 71.4.12ª of Andalucías Consumers Law clearly states the sanction for failing to provide the consumer (=yourself as purchaser of a home) with the LEGALLY bank guarantees of your down payments beofre completion, quoting:
http://www.todalaley.com/mostrarLey1300p17tn.htm
“71.4 …..12.a No formalizar los seguros, avales u otras garantías similares impuestas legalmente en beneficio de los consumidores.”
In ICAM we have a professional indemnity fund for malpractice amounting to Euros 300K.
If anyone in this forum have any further Spanish legal queries I’ll do my best to reply to them, bona fides, in my spare time (hopefully I won’t get laid-off for wasting the Lawfirm’s time and resources !), some times I might take a few days, albeit normally I’ll answer the same day they are posted.
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@Paul wrote:
Thanks for the useful info Drakan, it wasn’t me who suggested the Notary but Bert.
Useful contact Claire with your brother-in-law but check Drakan’s advice too which looks good.
I apologise Paul, I misread. 😳
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Hi Draken
Many thanks for your reply.
We did not agree a 1.6% legal charge. We did not sign any document to support this amount. DLM told us the total sum we needed to pay, in advance for completion of our contract. We trusted them.
My husband & I went to their offices in May, 2005, a month after we were first told of this problem We had made a 5pm appt with our lawyer to discuss the matter. Instead, the office manager appeared. When we asked where our lawyer was, he said she couldn’t make the appt !!!!! We asked if he was a lawyer. He said,… NO. We then asked to see the person we had been introduced to at our first meeting with DLM( then Cortez, Hapsburg, McGowan) and who had taken our initial 6000 euro deposit, went through the procedures, answered my husbands MANY questions and at a later date, notified us of the monies to be forwarded to them. At this meeting we discover that she is not a lawyer either ! 😯
At this point we say we are not leaving the office until we see our lawyer. She arrives 15 mins later. We also discuss the fact that we have not had our wills drawn up,as agreed , We arrange to go to the Notary. They ask us to pay 60 euros. My husband says “You have our money already to pay for this” We had wills made, to protect our 2 children,in case of our demise. If this problem had not been rectified, at least they would have documentation to say they could pursue the matter as benefactors of our estate.
Our lawyers have spoken to DLM directly, and said what they are doing is illegal. Still they refuse to budge. Our lawyers have already taken up the case with ICAM. We are in the process of writing and translating our signed letter to them.
IT IS DISGRACEFUL.
Companies like these give your profession a terrible reputation. YOU are in a position to expose these scandals.
My husband is a Chartered Accountant. He is governed by strict rules set up by his Institute. He could NEVER mislead his clients…and get away with it…nor would he. He also has worked in the City of London as a finance director & company secretary at two international banks. He was also a director of a national and several international companies. You can therefore imagine the type of pertinent questions that he asked at our initial meeting with DLM. ( it bored me rigid !!) He is by no means a “brain at the airport” Brit!! Now that I have given you his CV 😀 , It just goes to show how cunning and misleading these lawyers are.
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@Claire wrote:
Companies like these give your profession a terrible reputation. YOU are in a position to expose these scandals.
Wrong, it is up to you -the clients- to put things right involving Málagas ICA.
If you suspect that your lawyers have done something wrong, file a complaint before ICAM.
It is not my job to sue/police fellow lawyers, only their clients can LEGALLY do so. Take the case before the ICAM, If you are right you’ll win for sure and it’s free. Expose them.
I’ll reply to YOUR legal queries, If I can, but will not at any time expose/sue fellow lawyers; from a legal standponit it’s their client who has to do so, not me. I can only advice you Claire or hint that something, indeed, is wrong. 😉
If you are using DLM abogados your estate agents are established -wink- in P. Banús and like the blue ocean alot, right ? I’ve had awful problems with them involving clients of the lawfirm. 🙄
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Draken, you have misunderstood me.
WE ARE making the complaint. WE are writing the letter. I am not asking you to do ANYTHING!! 😕
When I said “YOU” I meant your profession as a whole. My husband has a weekly magazine produced by his institute, where many topics are discussed..good & bad. Maybe you have a similar platform in the law world in Spain, that you or your contemporaries could highlight the problems encountered by people when buying in Spain. I am not asking you to Name & Shame. I wouldn’t dream of it . 😯
Yes, those are the agents !! 🙂
Draken I appreciate your comments. Thank you. 😀
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DrakAn Claire, please. With an “A”.
I understanded what you wrote Claire.
I read that you are ALREADY taking the neccessary steps with the help of your lawyers. We -the profession- do not have to expose this. It’s up to the clients to do so.
I’ll help you in what I can.
Highlight this in forums. There are none IIRC. Mark’s website and ICAM is all you need. The best thing is to go to the British media and go public with facts to back up your story, that would utterly destroy them. Albeit there are pitfalls: you may be sued by them. You’ll have to take a calculated risk. Find other people like yourself mistreated by that or any other lawfirm/estate agency and go public.
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Drakan,its brilliant of you to give up your valuable time to help people on this board and point them in the right direction,I also have lawyers in Marbella and looked up some of the charges you mentioned and they were exactly as you said,they also only charged 1% fee.
Its a shame that the bad Lawyers tar the rest of you,just out of interest what area do you cover?.
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Drakan,
Thank you for your very informative comments.Please could you explain if the fund to cover malpractice is held by ICAM or is it an insurance policy?
Is the fund up to a limit of 300k per individual claim?
Do law firms carry their own insurance or is this all dealt with by the Colegio?
Does a case have to go to court and be won before the fund pays up?
If suing through the courts is it true that 20,000euros has to be deposited with the court first? (I was told that by O…. E……. of P Banus).
Many thanks
Jon
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@marios wrote:
Its a shame that the bad Lawyers tar the rest of you,just out of interest what area do you cover?.
Thank you Marios.
Regarding what area ,If you mean professionally, I’m a lawyer involved in foreign transactions/investments with non-residents in Spain.
If you mean where am I from or where do I work I will refuse to answer because I like my privacy. At no time am I solicitng clients through the net and I would turn anyone down who attempts to seek me/ email me as their lawyer (as I’ve already done in the Housecrashprice.com web).
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@Anonymous wrote:
Drakan,
Thank you for your very informative comments.Please could you explain if the fund to cover malpractice is held by ICAM or is it an insurance policy?
Is the fund up to a limit of 300k per individual claim?
Do law firms carry their own insurance or is this all dealt with by the Colegio?
Does a case have to go to court and be won before the fund pays up?
If suing through the courts is it true that 20,000euros has to be deposited with the court first? (I was told that by O…. E……. of P Banus).
Many thanks
Jon
Thank you Jon.
In this web site pertaining to Málagas Bar Council (ICAM in Spanish) you’ll find in PDF format the complete text in Spanish of the professional responsibility insurance we have. It is not a fund in the hands of the ICAM. It’s an insurance policy.
http://www.icamalaga.es/funcio1.htm
Click in both links names “responsabilidad civil”. You have the complete unabridged text of the policy.
AFAIK the amount is E 300k per lawyer which is “colegiado” to the ICAM which nowadays is almost approximately 3.800 lawyers for Málaga province alone.
We have to pay to the ICAM quotas/installments for belonging to it and part of those fees are allocated to our professional indemnity insurance fund. You can even see the name of the insurance company which the ICAM has contracted with.
No, Lawfirms are not required to have a professional indemnity insurance, they can If they want (mostly for marketing reasons) but they are not strictly enforced to do so.
It’s the ICAM who takes on this responsibility. The ICAM is the supervisory body to which we must abide at all times.
If suing through the courts is it true that 20,000euros has to be deposited with the court first? (I was told that by O…. E……. of P Banus).
As for the amounts neccessary to sue it depends, it’s a case-by-case study, I cannot generalise. I.e. you have the Juicio Monitorio, which doesn’t require a lawyer, and you may reclaim up to 30.000 Euros before a judge providing you have written evidence, such as an IOU, lease or rent contract, commission paper, signed fax, email etc… . It isn’t exactly a court proceeding, it’s more like a court hearing in which the judge acts as a referee trying to amicably solve the dispute. Normally you still have to sue after the debtor refuses to pay or denies the debt despite you having written evidence.
As I said, I’m not a lawyer specialised in court proceedings. But AFAIK you do not have to deposit 20.000 euros (or ANY amount whatsover) to sue someone.
In Spain thre are two types of court proceedings:
1. Juicios ordinarios
2. Juicios verbalesAll this is regulated by Law 1/2000, de 7 de enero, de Enjuiciamiento Civil.
http://www.noticias.juridicas.com/base_datos/Privado/l1-2000.html
If you lose you will be “condenado en costas” and will have to pay all fees (including the other side’s fees, including lawyer’s, unless the judge dictates otherwise).
It’s only logical If you think of it. Law is meant to be logic.
Then only because I don’t have 20.000 Euros could I never sue anyone despite having firm grounds to do so ? That would render me defenceless and is deemed unacceptable under our social democratic welfare system.
If you don’t have money you can apply for the “Justicia Gratuita” (ICAM will be delighted to provide information on this) in which very young and eager lawyers which are just starting will take your case and fight on behalf of you. But you must earn below a certain amount of money and be able to prove it when requested. Even If you are a non-resident you may apply for it.
Yes, well ocean lads would say that wouldn’t they ? 🙄
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Drakan,
Thanks for your response. Yes, the sailor boys do spin a line!Do I understand that if I wanted to claim against a law firm I would have to pick on one of their lawyers to sue? Is this personal or can the entire firm be held liable (the one I am thinking of is SL registered). What would the position be if the law firm had changed names and ownership during the period?
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Its a waste of time to sue in Spain, it just goes on for years. The developers and lawyers know this and thats why they do what they want. A friend has taken a developer to court for some very serious defects. The first round cost them 30,000 euros and they won!! The developers were given 11 days to start repairs, guess what? the developers put in some sort of appeal and it goes on and on. By the time its finished they will have spent more than the repairs.
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Hi Jon.
Sue the lawyer as well as the lawfirm. The entire law firm can be held liable.
Say I make a mistake or professional negligence for the lawfirm in which I work, the law firm would be held responsible, so yes, you ought to sue them.
In the lawsuit your lawyer will include all the names and surnames of the lawyers which are assocites or partners to the firm as well as the name of the firm itself.
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@Anonymous wrote:
Its a waste of time to sue in Spain, it just goes on for years. The developers and lawyers know this and thats why they do what they want. A friend has taken a developer to court for some very serious defects. The first round cost them 30,000 euros and they won!! The developers were given 11 days to start repairs, guess what? the developers put in some sort of appeal and it goes on and on. By the time its finished they will have spent more than the repairs.
Ther last resort must always be suing someone in Spain. It takes a long time and it is expensive but If you are right you win. It really depends on your lawyer’s skill to put pressure on the developer.
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@Anonymous wrote:
Its a waste of time to sue in Spain, it just goes on for years. The developers and lawyers know this and thats why they do what they want. A friend has taken a developer to court for some very serious defects. The first round cost them 30,000 euros and they won!! The developers were given 11 days to start repairs, guess what? the developers put in some sort of appeal and it goes on and on. By the time its finished they will have spent more than the repairs.
On the other hand that’s playing into the hands of the developers and navy boys, wouldn’t you agree ?
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hello all,
According to Draken……
You ARE entitled to seeing what is contained in the contract before signing it and having it translated in English
I was never given this option and if my memory serves me well I believe there was mention in this forum that you can ask for an English translation as well which does not have to be paid for. Unfortunately I never got a contract nor did I get the offer of an English translation from the solicitor. He was more concerned in getting the deposit asap! When I later disputed all this with him he said that an English version of the contract would have to have been paid for.
Reading this forum makes me feel that I am going round in circles without ever reaching any rational conclusions except one of loss of time and money. Don’t get me wrong I appreciate what everyone has to say but at the end of the day look at what we are subjected to in the process of fighting for our rights. Perhaps others would misconstrue this as being only one of greed for those who have gone down the off-plan route wanting to make a quick buck. In my case it was not a question of making huge gains as I am a realist I had only bargained for a small profit but the market the way it is even that was not forthcoming.
Anyway back to the subject of fighting for our rights….. whichever way you look at it we lose and they win (agents/solicitors/developers). Most people cannot afford to fight institutiions who hold all the winning cards, stature in their business, great financial backing, and a seemingly crooked system that allows them to get away with it without tight regulations in place. There does not even appear to be a code of practice that people are made aware of from the outset of these dealings. The agents/solicitors/developers engage in the selling activity as if selling candy from a store and improving their bank balance.
To my mind if you state the facts you will be sued, if you bring the case before the courts you may win but never see a penny from your actions brought against the perpetrators, if you lose because they have powerful legal clout you lose a great deal of money paying for all court expenditure etc………..on and on and on
Right back to going round in circles.
I mentioned on another part of the forum of forming an alliance of similar groups of people and also publicising as a group the facts with the intentions of exposing those who have literally made losses because of the negligence and downright greed of the agents/solicitors/developers.
I also got onto a site 123property a few months ago mentioning the same course of action as on this site there appeared to be many more people like myself suffering incompetencies, negligence etc at the hands of the agents/solicitors/developers. This I hope will happen as it seems the only course of action without incurring massive lawsuits.
So where to from here back to the circle………
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Hi Tania, it’s Drakan with an “A”.
If I went to Germany and purchased a property i would never sign a contract without a chartered translation in Spanish.
Whose fault is this ?
I’m not putting the blame on you Tania, but If you feel your lawyers have acted wrongly, take them before the ICAM, it’s free.
Off-plan can be very profitable If you know what you are doing or very risky If you don’t. There’s a market-timing for it, investing is an artform.
People who bought off-plan from 1997-2000 have made alot of money tax- fee selling before completion avoiding Capital Gains Tax.
Those who bought from 2000/2001-2005 will most likely lose money. Greed makes you lose money If you don’t know what you are doing.
Normally people who think they are smarter than the rest of us and who are greedy get caught, again and again. It happened in 1987, it happened in 1999, it is happening now and wil happen yet again. It is cyclical.
It’s up to you to do your own homework and research.
Purchasing off-plan is not bad per se, it has it’s pitfalls, granted, but in all investments you have to know what you are doing. If you don’t, do not touch off-plan with a bargepole even.
Do you know how warrants, shares, puts, options work ? If you don’t, don’t invest, it’s as easy as that. No one places a gun against your forehead forcing you to invest in realty. Buy bonds, buy government debt at 2% yield.
Investing takes time, takes self-discipline, takes learning, takes planning carefully ahead. It is sacrificial as well as rewarding.
If you really expect the agents/solicitors or whomever to do this on your behalf in an investment venture I guarantee you you’re in for a rough ride.
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Hi Drakan,
sorry about mis-spelling your name.
In terms of doing your homework and research I thought that was exactly what I had done I went out to Spain a few times and visited and looked into the pros and cons of buying off-plan. That is not it. What is it, it is solicitors taking your money! They should still consult with you on the process of buying off-plan, taking you through the contract, OKing this with you before pushing for a hefty deposit. As most people have mentioned on the forum they trust implicitly in what the solicitor does for them, relying on them to work on their behalf, and usually think it is the ethical thing to have your clients interests at heart.
I am sorry but I am not changing my mind on the fact that agents/solicitors/developers are only interested in their commissions, backhanders and fees at the expense of their clients.
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I would add to this that in the UK we are ‘protected’ by the FSA (in theory). There is a similar government agency in Spain.
Unfortunately many Spanish lawyers have not woken up to consumer protection in modern day practice and are still relying on the reticence of foreign clients, who do not speak the language, trying to reconcile their difficulties with a lawyer who sounds convincing about activities that are ‘not anything to worry about’.
Who do you trust? I know several buyers who were recommended a law firm which was acting for the developer. The lawyers’ interests were not declared.
How do you find out?
Not until something goes wrong, and then it is too late.
A lot of legal work on the CDS seems to depend on an assumption that if 90% of the clients get to completion then the lawyers can get away with the 10% problems by shrugging their shoulders and saying ‘such is life’ and in the meantime doing as little real ‘client interest’ work as possible.
(After all, there are plenty more clients coming)
I applaud Drakan for his fullsome responses to our queries and hope that more effective action is taken by affected clients against the rogue law firms in the business . -
Hi DrakAN,
since posting my previous message I received an email from my solicitor in Spain compounding my very beliefs and thoughts contained in that prior message
I will try the developers give me more time to comepete but I have the meeting with them on Thusday at 10:00 in Malaga. If they do not accept to delay the completion we will have to discharge the contract.
On the other hand, yes I requested the developers the insurance covering the amounts already paid although this insurance has already expired since you had to complete some months ago. They are not going to increase the period for the insurance polizy since the rest of the buyers have already completed.
In the case the developers do not respect the clauses stated in the contract and they do not refund you the 50% of the amounts already paid you could start a court procedure against them to ask for that money.I would like to inform you that tomorrow is Holiday in Marbella so I will contact you on Thursday afternoon.
They have not taken my wishes into account. I told them right from the start I did not wish to complete it was purely an investment to be sold before completion. They told me nothing about an insurance covering the amounts paid nor did they check and protect my interests to receive a refund of 50% and now they have the cheek to suggest I may have to take the developers to court!!!
No wonder I don’t have confidence in this crooked market area.
Like I said the solicitors are the winners etc etc.
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I find it incredible to believe that anyone would take such as risk in buying property knowing full well that they will not be in a position to complete the purchase – should the deal get to that stage – and should the property not be re-sold before completion. Seems like a good measure of risk assessment was lacking here. -
HELLO DR AKAN HOPE YOU CAN ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS FROM ME IM BUYING A DREADED OFF PLAN IN IZNALLOZ NEAR GRANADA FROM A DEVELOPER CALLED grupo rudina. I’ve paid 3000 euros reservation fee to a lawyer in Malaga as i did not trust the agent with my money. A nice person called town hall in Izznalloz to find out about building licence and it is going through. My lawyer asked for fees up front 1000 euros now and rest on completion 2%. I know ive been ripped off. The estate agent went behind my back and tried to ask 3000 euros from my lawyer. He called me to tell me what they were up to and asked what i wanted to do as they were going to put property back on market. I called them and they lied and said they never called him. Anyway i would like to know if I’m to have a bank guarantee in place when i hand over 30% in 4 weeks time before i sign. Please bear in mind that i have signed nothing with either estate agent or lawyer andthey are not connected in any way. What else should i know to protect myself and to know if my lawyer is going to do his job properly. What clause could i put in the contract? What should i find out about electrics and water? All help would be great as we need to have faith again in spanish lawyers as all the horror stories on this forum are giving me a lot of worries. Am I doing the right thing? The build is not ready until end 2007 so a lot can go wrong so im trying to do my home work now and research every thing thank you bun
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YOU CAN ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS FROM ME IM BUYING A DREADED OFF PLAN IN IZNALLOZ NEAR GRANADA
the question is why are you buying offplan? are you trying to make some money by reselling it? In which case your’e wasting your time and money.
There are plenty of resale properties on the market there really is NO reason to buy off-plan on the off chance of making a killing! – also there was a survey about late finishing of off-plan properties usually there are over a year late.
So why not just buy a resale? you could move in within a couple of months secure in the knowledge that you are not being shafted by the developer/lawyer/agent.
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Hi Kissimees
and all those of you that may want to have a go at me for wanting to make a tiny profit out of an off-plan development.
As I mentioned in an earlier posting I had purely bought on the basis of selling before completion I told the solicitor that over and over again, the agents sold it to me on that basis and the developers knew of my intentions. All said that was fine measures would be put in place to achieve that end. So why can we not get a clause written into the contract to protect us.
Apparantly if completion does not take place over a given period then the deposits are normally refundable. The completion was set to take place after almost a year. I was told that the developer had 180 days in which to complete from the official date of completion in which a full refund was to be made if this did not happen. When I asked my solicitor about this he was all vague. First he was of the opinion it was from November 2004, then he thought it was to take effect from May 2005 and then he finally said it was from the habitation licence! I was stunned did he not know the meaning of the contents of the contract that he had signed on my behalf?
Kissimees comment
I find it incredible to believe that anyone would take such as risk in buying property knowing full well that they will not be in a position to complete the purchase – should the deal get to that stage – and should the property not be re-sold before completion. Seems like a good measure of risk assessment was lacking here.
I am not saying that I am guilty/not guilty of the above but I do have rights and those rights even for the 50% refund should have been maintained by my solicitor. As it happens he has shown negligence. I have been in touch with him constantly and he should have been aware of what needed to be in place to protect my interests. Even now he has pushed obligations aside by telling me I may have to go to the courts to obtain even the 50% refund of my deposit that he should have kept an eye on. Maybe I am crying over spilt milk but I don’t think so I believed that the contract was in order because I TRUSTED THE SOLICITOR!!!!
I am beginning to feel that some of you believe that becuase I did not buy a building outright that I am not entitled to any form of protection. It is a bit like saying that the people who invested into their pensions, health insurances, house insurances are not entitled to any assistance and that the system is allowed to let them down. Whichever way you look at it all insurances, pensions, property deals are speculative. That does not mean however that the people who run these schemes can just take your money without putting the right contracts/laws in place to protect you!!
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Hi Tania.
It’s hard forme to give an opinion without revising the contract stipulations.
However, normally once the Licencia de primera Ocupación is granted by the town hall completion follows at the notary.
Unless you have legal grounds to delay completion, such as the townhall not having granted said licence, you are compelled to complete.
normally there is a clause by which you may pull out and avoid completion albeit you have to pay an amount of money in concept of “penalización”.
Normally it’s 50% of the amount paid until/before completion. You are in no position to demand the full refund of the money you’ve paid if you have no legal reason to.
Your lawyers will have to pay 50% of your monies over to the developer I’m afraid.
the mistake here buying off-plan is that EA make seem so easy to resale the property before completion and it’s not the case after year 200/2001. as Iposted, buying off-plan can be extremely profitable If done at the right time (that is buying before years 2000/2001) so as to off-set the high purchase costs involved (approx 11%) plus the EA commission which will be in the range of 6-15%.
So If you carry on Tania, you take on a mortagage and pay.
If you pull out now because you never wanted to complete you pay the penalization clause.
If you have the wording of the contract in Spanish email it to me and I’ll ckeck it. Ask your lawyers to send you the wording in spanish.
My email is:
drakanciver
@
gmail.
comI write my email like that because of forum email hunters for publicity/spam reasons.
I’m sorry to hear your case Tania but I’m afraid the realestate market is just like that.
Yours lawyers seem unprofessional. The bank guarantees must be DEMANDED from the developers ALWAYS and there is just no excuses whatsoever. Your lawyers failed you.
My generealadvice to everyone is don’t hire a lawyer which is recommended by the big british EA in the costa becaue they have vested interests. It’s always the same three or four law firms working directly with the navy boys and company which make the rest of us spanish lawyers look badly and it infuriates me.
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Hi Bun.
Well If I were you I would pull out of the contract now (*). Don’t buy off-plan as an investment now or you’ll lose alot of money.
On the other hand If you are buying O-P as a home then carry on.
(*)The reservation 3.000 euros is a non-refundable deposit. If you pull-out now you lose the 3.000 euros and you cannot in any way reclaim it back.
Well of course Bun, once you pay 3.000 euros or 30% downpayment before completion you are LEGALLY entitled to PESTER/MOLEST your lawyer until he obtains on your behalf said bank guarantee or insurance policy. It is outr job to ensure this. Accept no excuses whatsoever, the lawyer MUST obtain this guaranteee.
The bank guarantee is only given a few months after you’ve paid the 30%, never before. It guarantees past payments you’ve done, not future payments and only for the amount of the guarantee.
DEMAND from your lawyer a faxed copy of said guarantee, it is vital.
If he doesn’t obtain the guarantee for you I guarantee you 100% he works for the developer and not for you.
Water, electricity etc.. all that comes into play after the Licencia de Primera Ocupación (Licence of First Dwelling) shortly before completion, in your case probably in year 2007 or later.
You paid a lawyer 2% ?? I wish I had more clients like you. 😆 seriously, that is not right,the legal standard fee is 1% whether if the plot is rustic or urban. If you pay more than 1% renegotiate or wheel and deel with your lawyer saying you’llgo with a more competitive one.
If you have any further queries Bun just post them in this forum, I’ll reply.
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Drakan thanks for your help and time, WELL I ALL READY FEEL PISSED for been taken for a ride on first step of property buying by my 2% lawyer oh well, as for resavation fee if nothing has been signed between myself and the estate agents can they still tryed to get this money if they dont hold it, A indepentant 2% lawyer has it , and as for this bank insurance guarantee who is supposed to get this the lawyer or the developer?? who pays the premium? what if i pay the 30% and from now till the bank guarantee comes through the developer goes bust? sorry for all the question but im trying to be my home work but i appreciate you help , what if the developer goes bust befor bank guarantee comes through does the lawyers really hand over monies before anything is in place??????lawyer gets 2000euros on 98500 property transaction not bad thanks bun
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Hi Bun.
Your lawyer should charge you a minimum of 800-1000 Euros. In your case 985 E would amount to 1%. I sincerely hope you are not releasing equity against your house in the UK because you are putting yourself and your familys’ future at jeopardy doing this.
Do not enter into british equity release schemes at all (fortunately you cannot get them in Spain in Spanish banks). They are devised to make the lenders profit, it’s a win-win for the lenders.
The developer is in charge of obtaining the bank gurantee because he is legally obliged to do so, not yourself.
Your lawyer must pester the developer until he gets it. You in turn pester your lawyer until he faxes over you the copy. Do not take the word of the lawyer for that, DEMAND the copy of bank guarantee to be faxed over to you, accept NO EXCUSES because there are none. It is legally an imperative duty, no excuses. Check the amount that is being guaranteed, it should be your 30% plus 3.000 E deposit, if it isn’t, go back to your lawyer and put things straight, even menacing that you will take him to the ICAM (rather drastic but it works fine with us I must admit). The bank guarantee or insurance policy ONLY covers the ALL the money you’ve paid until then and has a limited deadline or timeline to enforce it, be careful on this. And start learning Spanish, you’ll find yourself more protected.
That bank guarantee will be obtained by the developer normally many months after you’ve paid the 3.000 E deposit plus the 30% downpayment.
What happens until then ? You pray … alot.
New laws passed stop builders from going “bust” and dissapearing after they have your monies much like in Spain in the seventies and eighties, because they are made PERSONALLY liable with their own personal assets no matter if its a Limited Liability constructora firm; of course they can then in turn put all thier assets under the name of his mother/wife and declare himself broke, but there are ways. The problem is that litigation in Spain takes ad eternum.
An independant lawyer has your 3.000 E. So what ? Means nothing. Demand from your lawyer the DEPOSIT CONTRACT your lawyer signed. No one puts down a deposit for off-plan without signing a scrap of paper even. In 100% of cases this deposit is non-refundable. If you pull out you lose it completely and there is nothing you can do. That deposit strikes off the property from the market.
I seriously recommend you not to purchase property in Spain now, any kind, because in two or three years time you’ll get it cheaper. Mark my words.
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I seriously recommend you not to purchase property in Spain now, any kind, because in two or three years time you’ll get it cheaper. Mark my words.
Interesting comment Drakan. I happen to agree but would appreciate your insight on such a view. I placed deposits on two off plan properties earlier this year, but backed out of both, and I am sitting on the fence waiting for the prices to drop.
Regards
Kevin
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Hi Kevin,
All my comments on real estate and where we’re heading in Spain are in the web Housepricecrash.com
I’ll paste the links :
http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=3645
http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=6846&st=0
I started writing there for exactly the same reasons I did here a few days ago, to set the record straight regarding unfounded criticisms to Spain´s Laws and it’s Lawyers.
Only because three or four unscrupulously run law firms which work all too “closely” with huge british real estate agencies on the costas are continously placing all of us in the spotlight giving us a tainted reputation, this must be addressed and stopped.
Regards,
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The first time we bought(10 years ago) we used a Lawyer without any partners and he was wonderful, not less expensive but the going rate. He explained everything and whenever I called he always got back to us ASAP. After completion he took us for a meal and also bought us a framed print we had admired in his office.
The second time, he had joined a partnership (gabinete?) and was ok. but didn’t even spend the time to have a coffee with us and sometimes took ages to answer our calls.The third time we used someone else as we had a dispute with our neighbour who is in the same gabinete so we used the lawyer of Viva estates. (We were only selling so it didn’t matter too much) The lawyer was Anderson and it was only when a problem arose with our buyer trying to delay things that we found out we had the same lawyer!! They tried to deny this by saying they were two different people working out of the same office. It all worked out ok. but imagine if things hadn’t.
I would say to anyone try to use a smaller lawyer, someone who you have heard of by word-of-mouth if possible and always get a breakdown of the likely costs first.
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Drakan, thank you for working so hard on this subject for everybody.
Tania, don’t get too down when some people critisize you and many of us for ‘hoping’ to make a profit in Spain and not being dilligent enough. Sometimes it’s them who miss the point because it’s the purchasers who are too often misled by ‘crooked, in my opinion’ estate agents who are acting as advisors even investment advisors, mostly British as well, who constantly talk the market up. The fact is when they have you hooked with a deposit paid, they’ve got you and move on to the next purchaser and their next fast buck.
It’s these agents and some of their recommended lawyers who should be weeded out and barred from operating, but Spain’s regulatory bodies do nothing. I think this makes the Spanish Gov’t as guilty as the crooks for doing nothing, my opinion only.
The more this problem is exposed/aired publicly the more chance of stopping it.
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@Paul wrote:
Drakan, thank you for working so hard on this subject for everybody.
The more this problem is exposed/aired publicly the more chance of stopping it.
You’re welcome Paul. 😉
Exactly, it is up to you, the clients of these so-called lawyers, to protest and expose them in the media or complain at the ICAM.
We are all too aware of them, If you only knew :shock:, but we cannot do anything, it must be the clients themselves who must confront and challenge their apalling behaviour.
In any case you can count on me to help British and Irish, as well as other foreigners, in what I possibly can in this forum or at the Housepricecrash website.
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@Anonymous wrote:
The first time we bought(10 years ago) we used a Lawyer without any partners and he was wonderful, not less expensive but the going rate. He explained everything and whenever I called he always got back to us ASAP. After completion he took us for a meal and also bought us a framed print we had admired in his office.
The second time, he had joined a partnership (gabinete?) and was ok. but didn’t even spend the time to have a coffee with us and sometimes took ages to answer our calls.The third time we used someone else as we had a dispute with our neighbour who is in the same gabinete so we used the lawyer of Viva estates. (We were only selling so it didn’t matter too much) The lawyer was Anderson and it was only when a problem arose with our buyer trying to delay things that we found out we had the same lawyer!! They tried to deny this by saying they were two different people working out of the same office. It all worked out ok. but imagine if things hadn’t.
I would say to anyone try to use a smaller lawyer, someone who you have heard of by word-of-mouth if possible and always get a breakdown of the likely costs first.
Hi anonymous.
That is illegal and unethical from a deonthological standpoint. The same lawyer cannot and should not work for both parties as it is only blatant. I don’t even need to look it up in the law codes. It is only logical. 😥
Them lawyers you mention, well, what can I say ? I’ll shut my mouth. 🙄
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HELLO DRAKAN THANKS FOR ALL YOUR HELP, RE FEES WITH LAWYER I THINK MY LAWYER WORKS ON HIS OWN IN MALAGA,AS WHEN EVER IVE CALLED HIM HE IS ALLWAYS ON END OF PHONE, NOT SURE AS TO HOW I ASK HIM TO REDUCE HIS FEES AS HE IS ALL READY HOLDING 50% OF HIS FEES? AS FOR DEVELOPMENT ITS AWAY FROM COAST AND INLAND, IM NOT LOOKING AT MAKING MONEY, THINKING OF HOLDING FOR ABOUT 10 YEARS , I THINK PRICES ARE MORE CHEAPER INLAND AND MIGHT NOT FALL AS HARD AS COAST OR MAYBE IM DREAMING, IM STILL TRYING TO FIND ANY INFORMATION ABOUT THIS DEVELOPER BUT I CAN NOT FIND ANY THING ON GRUPO RUDINA BUT WILL KEEP LOOKING, BUT WITH ALL THE IMFORMATION I NOW HAVE AT LEAST I CAN CHECK IF MY LAWYER IS DOING HIS WORK OK , SHAME I NEVER HAD A LAWYER LIKE YOU DRAKEN 😆 , A KIND PERSON ON THIS FORUM IN SPAIN I THINK CALLED UP TOWN HALL IN IZZNALLOZ AND WAS TOLD BUILDING LICENCE IS GOING THROUGH AND SHOULD NOT BE TO LONG,, I TO HOPE IM NOT MAKEING A WRONGE CHOICE, BUT THE RIGHT CHOICE IS NOT TO BUY ON OVER DEVELOPED COAST THANKS BUN.. 😉
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Hi Drakan,
I hope you haven’t been too innundated with queries after your generous offer to respond and have time to answer my question.
We bought off-plan in 2002 – wish we had seen all the good advice on this site before we did so – with a completion date of early 2004. At that time the developer did not have a building licence so we waited over a year for that to be issued.
We were about to sign the escritura in May this year when our adviser – a Graduate Social – told us that there was no Habitation Certificate, so we did not.
We have paid the contract price in full. We have also paid for builders supply power and water. The developer has refused to give us the keys.
We know that we can take the developer to court and have started proceedings but this adds on another year and we have already waited too long to use our house.
Is there anything we can do to get our keys now, other than roll over and let the developer take away all of our legal rights by signing the escritura.
I would be very grateful for any advice.
Tilly
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Hi Tilly.
I’m at a loss with your post.
You’ve hired a graduado social to help you out instead of a lawyer ???!!!
That’s as If I go to a lawyer to have my teeth pulled out instead of a dentist (no pun intended).
I’ve read your post three times and I’m still unsure.
The cédula de habitabilidad hasn’t been granted by the town hall yet I take it.
So you have a property off-plan for which you’ve alredy paid the full price and you havent gone yet to the notaries to complete ? That is despicable to say the least.
You are not obliged to complete at the notaries If the Licencia de primera ocupación hasn’t been granted yet, they cannot force you and you would win at the courts.
The electricity, water etc…is paid at completion at the notaries once the building is over, the licencia de primera ocupación has been granted by the town hall and you have the licencia de final de obras.
You NEVER pay to the developer all the money without all these guarantees and licencias. Do you have an insurance policy to ensure all the payments you’ve done until now ? This is very important should the developers experience “financial troubles”.
Please explain and expand further on a post hereinbelow so I discern exactly your legal status.
If you are a foreigner purchasing in Spain always use a duly qualified lawyer who is collegiated at the Bar Council of his province. In this case if something goes wrong and you are wrongly advised you have a professionalindeminity fund worth 300 k E per lawyer/case.
A “graduado social” IIRC is a professional who deals with the social security, lay offs, labour issues. He has NO legal knowledge whatsoever outside his very specific professional scope. Professiopnal intrusism is the word that comes to mind If they are acting in conveyancing …
These are thier functions in Spanish:
http://www.graduadosocial-va.com/index.php?option=displaypage&Itemid=62&op=page&SubMenu=
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Hi Drakan,
Thank you for your reply.
Obviously this is one of those ‘brains left at the airport’ situations. We came to look (independently) not to buy, but on our last day found the perfect development, perfect plot etc. Beautiful part-built urbanisation, many great facilities advertised in glossy English magazines, English, Dutch and German agents on-site in developers offices, people queuing to buy. The English agent said we would not need a lawyer as she would deal with the legal side of things (I know, I know!! 😳 ) We signed intending to ask other purchasers for good lawyer recommendations. Unfortunately no-one we know has a lawyer they consider worth recommending!
We were told we could take our house in March 2004 but with no roads, no pavements, no escritura. Turned out to be no building licence too – this was not issued until February 2005.
We waited for the escritura – we thought that this was the document that made everything legal. We planned to sign and therefore made the final payment in advance as the developer will not turn up at the Notary without cleared funds in their account. Although we did not sign the escritura the developer said they would hand over the keys on receipt of payment for connections to builders supply power and water and a lump sum payment in advance for usage. After taking this cheque they refused to hand over the keys.
We took advice from the Graduado Social because she advises the residents association. We understood the position to be a lawyer/accountant. On her advice we didn’t sign the escritura but hundreds of people, maybe as many as 500, mainly British, have signed with the approval of their lawyers. No houses in the urbanisation have Habitation Certificates from the Town Hall although some have been occupied for over three years.
We have Bank Guarantees for 75% of our payments – not for the initial deposit, final payment and connection fees.
We know we have a good case, although no-one will guarantee it. The problem is the length of time it takes to work through the legal system – probably a year. We have already waited such a long time and would love to know if there was some way of forcing the developer to hand over our keys.
Thanks,
Tilly -
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Thanks Drakan,
We cannot get a Bank Guarantee for the last payment, made in May of this year. And you can’t live in a Bank Guarantee!
What we want is our house without giving away all of the rights we would have under Spanish law if we weren’t coerced into signing them away with the escritura.
Do you know if there is a government consumer organisation that might be able to help, especially as so many people are affected.
Tilly
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There’s the Andalucías Consumer Law with very stiff penalties.
There’s also a nationwide Consumer LawYou have the all-powerful spanish OCU:
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Drakan,
Another couple who bought on the higher level of Green Hills in June 2003, who were only told on 19 Sept 2005 that it was not going to be built have sent a 25 page document to the OCU with a mass of evidence of malpractice from their agent/lawyer/ developer/promoter. The OCU are very interested in the case. It will take about 2 weeks for them to “research” the case. Depending on the response, my husband and I are going to lodge our complaint too, to add weight to this case.
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requerimiento notarial is a formal communication carried out by a notary public.
For example, I’m the developers lawyer and the deadline for completion is close at hand and I see you are unwilling to complete.
I send you a requerimiento notarial compelling you to complete in a certain date, at a time, in a notary. Should you fail to appear, legally I could pull out of the contract and keep -normally- 50% of all the money you’ve paid up to date (depends on the draconian contract stipulations).
A requerimiento notarial is a certified Public Notaries communication which will be used at a later date in a court procedure as unrebuttable proof.
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For example, I’m the developers lawyer and the deadline for completion is close at hand and I see you are unwilling to complete.
I send you a requerimiento notarial compelling you to complete in a certain date, at a time, in a notary. Should you fail to appear, legally I could pull out of the contract and keep -normally- 50% of all the money you’ve paid up to date (depends on the draconian contract stipulations).
A requerimiento notarial is a certified Public Notaries communication which will be used at a later date in a court procedure as unrebuttable proof.
Hi Drakan
Does this work the other way?
for example I am the buyer and I wish to exercise my right not to go ahead with completion and the guarantee can now be claimed. Should my lawyer obtain a requerimiento notarial to this effect? Otherwise surely if the occupation license is issued before the actual claim is made I would have to complete. -
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Hi Drakan, I also have a similar question to Jon which I hope you can help with. I have bought into a development called Sea Golf Regency in Alcaidesa through the agents which keep coming up time and again on this site. I am represented by Direct Lawyers so am similar to a lot of people on this site. The development I bought into was seized as part of the white whale operation but now the judge is allowing completions to go ahead once again under an administrator. Most purchasers are happy that they can now complete but however I do not want to complete anymore. I want to cancel my contract and get my deposit back. My lawyer says that I should complete as at least then I get legal ownership however I am not happy with this as I am not happy giving more money to developers who are quite possibly criminals (yet to be proved) and also feel I was strongly lied to by both the developer and agent over a number of issues with regards to the purchse.
Do you think that the judge will allow cancellations at sometime in the future? I presume that although he is facilitating completions at the moment that he cannot legally make me complete? I believe that only the developer could legally force me to complete or forfeit my deposit if they were ever found innocent. If they are found guilty then surely my contract would be null invoid and I should get my money back?
Also, you mentioned previously if you cancel a contract that you should at least be entitled to a 50% refund on your deposit. Is this always the case? After reading all of the negative posts about my lawyer then I presume that they probably did not ask for this but was just wondering if this was a
Spanish law requirement.Sorry for the long post and thanks very much for you help.
rgds
Alex -
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Drakan – the time you are giving to this forum is to be applauded, you are a star!
My question (among a millon others!!) is, after my lawyer taking 21 months to get the Bank Guarantee for my off-plan appt. purchased summer 2003, (due for completion around now), the BG’s enforcement date states middle of September 2006! Something not queried by our lawyer.
It may not have mattered so much, but like Claire, I bought into the same development that hasn’t nor never will be built.
This means I will have to wait for nearly a year to get my money back, a position I wouldn’t be in if my lawyer had insisted on a correct date in the first place (i.e. before the end of this year).
Do I have a case against my lawyer for negligence?
Feel not only let down by the developer, but now by the lawyer. -
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Sofia,
Were you buying into the upper level of GREEN HILLS? If so then …at last 😀 there are more of us finding each other. My husband & I have the same issues. With the wonderful help of Barbara & Katerina (they have yet to post their situation) it appears that at the time of signing our contract, Marbella Vista Golf did not own the Building Licence. This is probably why we did not get a bank guarantee soon after the contract was signed. (Ours is dated March 15th 2005 !!!) and why, when it was issued, it was dated SEPT 2006. They also had/have a mortgage on these apartments which was also not disclosed by DLM.
Who are your Lawyers? Probably DLM, Andersons Or Balms (sp?)
Our Lawyers have (persistently)asked the legal dept of the holding bank of our guarantee if, under the circumstances, they would activate the guarantee this year. Answer …NO. so we are stuck with Sept 2006.
Absolutely no lawyer in the UK would have signed a contract WITHOUT getting assurance of a Bank Guarantee AND advising us of the fact. Also there are illegal clauses in the contract. Had we been informed of this we would NEVER have agreed to signing of a contract. Also in the UK, we usually sign the contract in person, after going through it in minute detail. Only when all parties are happy is it signed. WE trusted the lawyers to act on our behalf and in our best interests. WHAT A MISTAKE! 😈 😈 😈
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Claire wrote:Drakan,
Another couple who bought on the higher level of Green Hills in June 2003, who were only told on 19 Sept 2005 that it was not going to be built have sent a 25 page document to the OCU with a mass of evidence of malpractice from their agent/lawyer/ developer/promoter……..
Just to make a correction to Claire’s posting, we sent our documents – not to the OCU – but to the CEC (Centro Europeo del Consumidor, a.k.a. European Consumer Centre).
We are in touch directly with Claire – and I know her brain is as addled as ours with all that has been happening, so am impressed she even remembers there was a letter ‘C’ in there somewhere!!!!!The CEC is basically an EU initiative where all EU countries must have one of these offices to help cross-border disputes (i.e. where a member of one EU country has a problem with another EU country). The office is manned by qualified lawyers, can look into your problem and MAYBE look at organising an ‘arbitration’ meeting with all parties. Like a pre-court thing. If they decide to call one of these meetings, ALL parties must attend (no choice, rather like being subpoenad – spelling???), so a rogue developer/estate agent etc. can’t wriggle out of attending.
We don’t know what their decision will be once they have waded all through our documentation, but we have so much evidence of fraud, mis-appropriation of funds, deceitful advertising etc. etc. that we hope they WILL be willing to intervene. This is a EU-driven thing so let’s see what happens. We have to wait for about 2 weeks for a response.Be sure that we will inform all of you out there via this forum of what results we get, so you will know whether the whole exercise is worth it or not and whether it is an avenue for you to try.
If I have got any of the info. or facts wrong that I have just written re. the CEC, and Drakan is reading this :wink:, would appreciate his comments and am happy to be put right! Us laymen are doing our best in what is a totally ‘new field of experience’ for us.
Barbara and Katerina
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@Jon wrote:
For example, I’m the developers lawyer and the deadline for completion is close at hand and I see you are unwilling to complete.
I send you a requerimiento notarial compelling you to complete in a certain date, at a time, in a notary. Should you fail to appear, legally I could pull out of the contract and keep -normally- 50% of all the money you’ve paid up to date (depends on the draconian contract stipulations).
A requerimiento notarial is a certified Public Notaries communication which will be used at a later date in a court procedure as unrebuttable proof.
Hi Drakan
Does this work the other way?
for example I am the buyer and I wish to exercise my right not to go ahead with completion and the guarantee can now be claimed. Should my lawyer obtain a requerimiento notarial to this effect? Otherwise surely if the occupation license is issued before the actual claim is made I would have to complete.Drakan,
I am trying to establish if the buyer should ensure that his intention to claim is registered so that if the development completes before his lawyer gets round to dealing with the paperwork he can refuse to complete the purchase AND claim the guarantee. Otherwise the guarantee would expire on completion.
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@callal wrote:
Hi Drakan, I also have a similar question to Jon which I hope you can help with. I have bought into a development called Sea Golf Regency in Alcaidesa through the agents which keep coming up time and again on this site. I am represented by Direct Lawyers so am similar to a lot of people on this site. The development I bought into was seized as part of the white whale operation but now the judge is allowing completions to go ahead once again under an administrator. Most purchasers are happy that they can now complete but however I do not want to complete anymore. I want to cancel my contract and get my deposit back. My lawyer says that I should complete as at least then I get legal ownership however I am not happy with this as I am not happy giving more money to developers who are quite possibly criminals (yet to be proved) and also feel I was strongly lied to by both the developer and agent over a number of issues with regards to the purchse.
Do you think that the judge will allow cancellations at sometime in the future? I presume that although he is facilitating completions at the moment that he cannot legally make me complete? I believe that only the developer could legally force me to complete or forfeit my deposit if they were ever found innocent. If they are found guilty then surely my contract would be null invoid and I should get my money back?
Also, you mentioned previously if you cancel a contract that you should at least be entitled to a 50% refund on your deposit. Is this always the case? After reading all of the negative posts about my lawyer then I presume that they probably did not ask for this but was just wondering if this was a
Spanish law requirement.Sorry for the long post and thanks very much for you help.
rgds
AlexHi Callal/Alex,
No, It isn’t always the case. It depends on the stipulations that the developer and your lawyer negotiated and signed from the onstart. Normally it’s 50% albeit it could perfectly be substantially less. Get a solicitor to read the private contract you signed.
This case is something new for all of us and has caused the profession a massive damage. I’m not sure the judge or the interin administrador would allow you to pull out without a penalty on your downpayments. they are suspected criminals, albeit we have to wait for tyhe final ruling in a few years time despite all the strong evidence.
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@Sofia wrote:
Drakan – the time you are giving to this forum is to be applauded, you are a star!
My question (among a millon others!!) is, after my lawyer taking 21 months to get the Bank Guarantee for my off-plan appt. purchased summer 2003, (due for completion around now), the BG’s enforcement date states middle of September 2006! Something not queried by our lawyer.
It may not have mattered so much, but like Claire, I bought into the same development that hasn’t nor never will be built.
This means I will have to wait for nearly a year to get my money back, a position I wouldn’t be in if my lawyer had insisted on a correct date in the first place (i.e. before the end of this year).
Do I have a case against my lawyer for negligence?
Feel not only let down by the developer, but now by the lawyer.Hi Sofia,
Thank you for your kind words.
That is irrelevant. The bank guarantees are there should the developer default payments and go bankrupt.
If the developer fails to obtain a Licencia de Obras or Building Licence after a certain deadline normally outset in the private contract you are entitled to do it and obtain the full amount/refund of all the monies paid, plus deposit, plus 6% interest, plus all legal costs (i.e. the IOU costs).
This is due to the fact that the developer has “incumplido” his legal duty as stipulated in the contract. Even If you don’t have those bank guarantees yet, you are entitled to a full refund because the developer has breached the contract’s clauses. Your lawyer ought to know this, you do not have to wait for the BGs at all.
I’ve done it for clients over and over again, specially with a developer called A—s which always signs contracts without the plots of land even having the necessesary legal permits or qualifications !! Now if they manage to suceed, the clients save themselves alot of money because the property is cheap, but at times (often) they fail to come up with the building licence etc.
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@Katerina + Barbara wrote:
If I have got any of the info. or facts wrong that I have just written re. the CEC, and Drakan is reading this :wink:, would appreciate his comments and am happy to be put right! Us laymen are doing our best in what is a totally ‘new field of experience’ for us.
Barbara and Katerina
Hi Katrina,
I read all posts in this thread. I wish you the best of luck in your case.
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Hi Jon.
As you correctly post,once the Licencia de Primera Ocupación is granted you just have to complete or face the stiff penalties for pulling out of the contract (normally 50% or less of all downpayments up to date before completion; one always has to look at the contract).
The requerimiento notarial would act as a certified and unrebuttable proof of the comunication you make to the developer (but a burofax with “certificado de contenido y acuse de recibo” works the same and is cheaper in fact, providing they get to sign it upon receipt, that is), that’s all it does.
What I fail to understand is what valid reason do you have to pull out before the Licence of First Occupation/Dwelling is granted ? If it’s just because you dont want to complete and you bought off-plan as speculation/investment and cannot find a purchaser, such as Tania’s case, you’ll have to pay the 50% penalties or whatever the amount that was agreed between your lawyers and the developers, it’s unavoidable.
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Dear Drakan
Many thanks for your reply/time.
I’m sorry but I don’t 100% understand.
Our lawyer has the Bank Guarantee (obtained May 2005 even though contract was signed 2003)
The contract expires in a few days (31st October) around which time we are supposed to get the keys (!)
The block of apartments has not been and never will be built.
The Bank Guarantee enforcement date is September 2006.
I’ve told the developer that I want my money returned plus 6% legal iinterest etc. as he is never going to build it (on his own admission).
He says “No, wait ’til next September when you can enforce the Bank Guarantee”.
Stalemate !
(Meanwhile he is building a new project a few miles down the coast, and selling off-plans, probably using all our 100,000 euros per person from my development (there were over 60 appartments – so do the maths!).
As he says ‘No’, is the only option court?
My lawyer (jokers) said this could take many years so I might as well wait for the BG next September!
How can this be legally allowed? All because of the enforcement date on the BG.
Despairing Sofia 🙁 -
@Drakan wrote:
Hi Jon.
As you correctly post,once the Licencia de Primera Ocupación is granted you just have to complete or face the stiff penalties for pulling out of the contract (normally 50% or less of all downpayments up to date before completion; one always has to look at the contract).
The requerimiento notarial would act as a certified and unrebuttable proof of the comunication you make to the developer (but a burofax with “certificado de contenido y acuse de recibo” works the same and is cheaper in fact, providing they get to sign it upon receipt, that is), that’s all it does.
What I fail to understand is what valid reason do you have to pull out before the Licence of First Occupation/Dwelling is granted ? If it’s just because you dont want to complete and you bought off-plan as speculation/investment and cannot find a purchaser, such as Tania’s case, you’ll have to pay the 50% penalties or whatever the amount that was agreed between your lawyers and the developers, it’s unavoidable.
Well Drakan, thereby lies another sorry tale. No, we did not buy to speculate, just a holiday home that we could enjoy for many years. Had our developer delivered what was promised we would have been very happy to complete.
We bought off plan in 2001. We saw a model of the development, diagrammatic layout of the site and viewed an apartment already built by what we thought was our developer.
We were assured this would be a top quality development with quality furnishing and fittings. We assumed that details of the layout of the site and specifications of furnishings and fittings would be included in the contract. We asked our lawyers for these details on several occasions. In hindsight we should have pursued the matter but at that point we were getting completion dates on average every 2 months- a total of 8 different completion dates were given to us. (The contract completion date was stated as April 2003).We eventually went out again in November 2004 to see what was going on and we were horrified to be told by the estate agent (awful estates) that 2 commercial units had been incorporated into the already small site (less than 60 apartments). The lawyers and the agent both confirmed to us that the community of owners would have no say as to what these units could be used for. We subsequently found out that what we assumed would be a stairwell was in fact a lift shaft with an additional burden of maintenance on the owners. The quality of the build and fittings is appalling. (Currently we are told that a stairway to one of the blocks has moved about a metre away from the building). On this basis we felt totally justified in claiming under the supposed guarantee.
We are not in this for a ‘quick buck’, we went into this in good faith and we have complied 100% with our obligations under the contract. We followed recommended practice and engaged a lawyer. We have been completely let down.
This answers your specific question, but the story continues….
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SOFIA,
Did you read my post to you on page 6?
Maybe, if we confronted the developers “EN MASSE” we would have more clout. There is another lady,whose name escapes me who has posted here and also is in the same situation as ourselves. I’ll have to look back and see if she has pm. It is something worth considering. We all have a lot of money at stake, and my husband & I would rather our €119,000+was in OUR bank account…not Eralias.
Ahha! just found the post…
Hi Clare
We too are victims of the Green Hills nightmare. We went ahead with purchasing what we thought would be a decent investment apartment in Green Hills, in Oct 2003, and have parted with 119,000 euros. Then last February, our lawyers, the useless Andersons in Marbella informed me it was not going to be built.
They have refused our refund and the lawyers advice is that we would need to start a very lengthly action in order to recover the money. As yet I have to see our bank guarantee, and am in the process of finding a new lawyer to work on my behalf. I have been recommended Jose Sanchez, whom I have spoken to before.
Am I correct in understanding you now have your bank guarantee but are unable to excercise it until Oct 2006?
Naturally our initial Ocean Estates contact is no longer! And unbelievably they are actually still trying to sell on properties in our imaginery block to other poor unsuspecting clients. I totally agree with another user on this forum, that we are not stupid Brits, but trust that a large reputable(??) company like Ocean together what seems like large well known lawyers would be highly unlikely to fleece their clients. We are obviously totally unable to directly compare our system with Spains!
Let me know how you are getting on and I will keep you posted. There must be many others at Green Hills with our problem!
Siobhan
I hope she will read these posts.!
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I would like to ask the very nice man Drakan a Q we pay 100000 euros to a developer, you say it takes 2monthes for a bank guarantee, what if the developer has a number of100000euros say 200 100000eurosbut the bank guarantees never come through the lawyer ask but it never comes ,,,,,,,Then the developer goes bust 👿 👿 👿 👿 👿 you can get a bank guarantee in the uk on handing ouer your depostit why in spain you have to pray for one to come after 2 monthes or 4 monthes or 1 year what sort of scams are going on over there is every one turning a blind eye and what sort of goverment lets this carrey on if you ask me it starts with the agent developer lawyer and goverment are all to blame ok so there is a small number of lawyers who are ok you been one of them as i have read all your postings , but i think it is best to have a warning on buying property in spain like on a packett of fags BUYER BEWARE YOU BUY AT YOUR OWN RISK spain is becoming a high risk and we have fuled it for to long,, why not pay a deposit within signing you receive a bank guarantee, developers dont go bust they are aloud to trade under a new name and they run with the monies its a shame spain is now like this the more forums 🙁 🙁 🙁 on spain the better just maybe when it starts to bite a lesson might be learnt from all of this
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@Sofia wrote:
Dear Drakan
Many thanks for your reply/time.
I’m sorry but I don’t 100% understand.
Our lawyer has the Bank Guarantee (obtained May 2005 even though contract was signed 2003)
The contract expires in a few days (31st October) around which time we are supposed to get the keys (!)
The block of apartments has not been and never will be built.
The Bank Guarantee enforcement date is September 2006.
I’ve told the developer that I want my money returned plus 6% legal iinterest etc. as he is never going to build it (on his own admission).
He says “No, wait ’til next September when you can enforce the Bank Guarantee”.
Stalemate !
(Meanwhile he is building a new project a few miles down the coast, and selling off-plans, probably using all our 100,000 euros per person from my development (there were over 60 appartments – so do the maths!).
As he says ‘No’, is the only option court?
My lawyer (jokers) said this could take many years so I might as well wait for the BG next September!
How can this be legally allowed? All because of the enforcement date on the BG.
Despairing Sofia 🙁Dear Sofía,
I’ll expalin once more:
One must distinguish clearly two concepts:
1.- Bank Guarantee: it’s there if the developer goes broke. All payments included in said guarantee are insured and your money (= the amount of the guarantee, that is)is 100% safe and refunded.
2.- The developer fails to obtain the Licencia de Obras or Building Licence. You DO NOT NEED THE BANK GUARANTEE AT ALL !! The developer hasn’t gone bust financially, that’s the specific purpose of the BG,ok ?
What you do in the second case, is you go to your lawyer and you tell him there has been an “incumplimiento contractual grave”. The developer has breached an essential contractual binding obligation. You are released henceforth and may pullout of the contract asap, no need to wait for any BGs becaue they have nothing to do with this, ok ? You are entitled to:
1.- Full refund of ALL monies paid up to date (incl deposit).
2.- They MUST pay 6% compound interest on all downpayments calculated individually mathematically following Law 57/68 article 3 IIRC.
3. All legal costs (not lwyers fees) such as descucentode letras (IOU set up fees).
4. etc….the BGs serve a specific purpose: ensure the payments of compradores de buena fe in a purpoted “bankruptcy” *cough**cough* case of a developer.
The failute to obtain a Building Licence has NOTHING TO DO WITH A BG and your lawyer should advise you to pull out asap, what is he playing at ? He’s clearly biased towards the developer. Move on and find another lawyer FGS.
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@Anonymous wrote:
I would like to ask the very nice man Drakan a Q we pay 100000 euros to a developer, you say it takes 2monthes for a bank guarantee, what if the developer has a number of100000euros say 200 100000eurosbut the bank guarantees never come through the lawyer ask but it never comes ,,,,,,,Then the developer goes bust 👿 👿 👿 👿 👿 you can get a bank guarantee in the uk on handing ouer your depostit why in spain you have to pray for one to come after 2 monthes or 4 monthes or 1 year what sort of scams are going on over there is every one turning a blind eye and what sort of goverment lets this carrey on if you ask me it starts with the agent developer lawyer and goverment are all to blame ok so there is a small number of lawyers who are ok you been one of them as i have read all your postings , but i think it is best to have a warning on buying property in spain like on a packett of fags BUYER BEWARE YOU BUY AT YOUR OWN RISK spain is becoming a high risk and we have fuled it for to long,, why not pay a deposit within signing you receive a bank guarantee, developers dont go bust they are aloud to trade under a new name and they run with the monies its a shame spain is now like this the more forums 🙁 🙁 🙁 on spain the better just maybe when it starts to bite a lesson might be learnt from all of this
Hi Anonymous.
Don’t put words in my mouth which I haven’t said.
It takes a minimum of a couple of months, sometimes 4 months others 9 months (awfully long IMHO) or even more. The BG should be granted 4-5 months after downpayments. It depends on your lawyers ability to be persistenbt and bug the developer to ask for it. If your lawyer doesn’t ask for it I can assure you the developer is not going to do it, no matter If the laws sanctions him, because he incurrs in extra costs setting up these insurance etc…
Yes you have to wait for the BG. If the developer goes bust before you have it, you can wait for ever or ten years until all the court procedures are over and his assets are executed to cover all unsettled debts.
British and Irish: DEMAND those BGs, bug your Spanish Lawyers, do not be shy on this. Developers are and will go bust, it always happens. demand a copy of the BG to be faxed over to you, do not take the word of your solicitors for that, it is much too important. You must have a copy in your hands, take no excuses whatsoever, because there are NONE, and If they give you excuses, start worrying and start looking for another unbiassed lawyer asap without vested interests to replace them and defend your legal interests. -
We received our Bank Guarantee within a month of asking our agents to contact the developer for it. Their only stipulation (the developer) was that we were in possession of our NIE numbers and could fax them a copy.
The developer had it posted to us in the UK by “special delivery”. Were we just lucky or is it that bad news always travels farthest and most of us using this site do so because we have experienced problems?
Linda
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Drakan, if you have time to read this, a Guest asked earlier why not mention the Estate Agent who sold these questionable developments, in his case he mentions Ocean Estates again, surprise, surprise!
In your opinion if this agent or any other one sells or promotes a development often as one of their ‘exclusives’ as in White Whale, Green Hills etc, do they ALSO have some legal responsibility as do their recommended lawyers to sort things out, refund deposits etc etc for mis-selling in the first place?
They are the agent selling or mis-selling these developments often without building licences, so should they also be responsible?
What do you think?
Regards
Paul
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I am in a situation in a development in Calahonda – developers are bankrupt and although I have a bank guarantee, it is from an insurance company registered in Luxembourg. My lawyers (one that is frequently mentioned in this forum) tell me that there may be problems in enforcing the guarantee as the insurance company (Comagnie des Garanties SA) is not registered nor authorised to operate in Spain. This in spite of the fact that the guarantee is written in Spanish and has a Madrid branch (apparently). I would really appreciate any views on this topic, having just joined the forum for the first time today – contents are really useful. Is my lawyer at fault? Could I benefit from changing my lawyer? Many thanks.
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I am in a situation in a development in Calahonda – developers are bankrupt and although I have a bank guarantee, it is from an insurance company registered in Luxembourg. My lawyers (one that is frequently mentioned in this forum) tell me that there may be problems in enforcing the guarantee as the insurance company (Comagnie des Garanties SA) is not registered nor authorised to operate in Spain. This in spite of the fact that the guarantee is written in Spanish and has a Madrid branch (apparently). I would really appreciate any views on this topic, having just joined the forum for the first time today – contents are really useful. Is my lawyer at fault? Could I benefit from changing my lawyer? Many thanks.
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@Paul wrote:
Drakan, if you have time to read this, a Guest asked earlier why not mention the Estate Agent who sold these questionable developments, in his case he mentions Ocean Estates again, surprise, surprise!
In your opinion if this agent or any other one sells or promotes a development often as one of their ‘exclusives’ as in White Whale, Green Hills etc, do they ALSO have some legal responsibility as do their recommended lawyers to sort things out, refund deposits etc etc for mis-selling in the first place?
They are the agent selling or mis-selling these developments often without building licences, so should they also be responsible?
What do you think?
Regards
Paul
They can be held liable, of course. May I remind you that the case “White Whale” is yet not closed and is under “secreto de sumario” still (or under secrecy). It has been mentioned and it is publicly acknowledged by the judges that Real Estate Companies on the costa are being investigated; although no names have been revealed.
There are good and bad real estate agencies and agents. One just cannot generalise.
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@Paul wrote:
Drakan, if you have time to read this, a Guest asked earlier why not mention the Estate Agent who sold these questionable developments, in his case he mentions Ocean Estates again, surprise, surprise!
In your opinion if this agent or any other one sells or promotes a development often as one of their ‘exclusives’ as in White Whale, Green Hills etc, do they ALSO have some legal responsibility as do their recommended lawyers to sort things out, refund deposits etc etc for mis-selling in the first place?
They are the agent selling or mis-selling these developments often without building licences, so should they also be responsible?
What do you think?
Regards
Paul
They can be held liable, of course. May I remind you that the case “White Whale” is yet not closed and is under “secreto de sumario” still (or under secrecy). It has been mentioned and it is publicly acknowledged by the judges that Real Estate Companies on the costa are being investigated; although no names have been revealed.
There are good and bad real estate agencies and agents. One just cannot generalise.
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@Ian wrote:
I am in a situation in a development in Calahonda – developers are bankrupt and although I have a bank guarantee, it is from an insurance company registered in Luxembourg. My lawyers (one that is frequently mentioned in this forum) tell me that there may be problems in enforcing the guarantee as the insurance company (Comagnie des Garanties SA) is not registered nor authorised to operate in Spain. This in spite of the fact that the guarantee is written in Spanish and has a Madrid branch (apparently). I would really appreciate any views on this topic, having just joined the forum for the first time today – contents are really useful. Is my lawyer at fault? Could I benefit from changing my lawyer? Many thanks.
The BG must be executed asap.
I don’t know what law firm you are refering to, albeit if you’ve seen it critisized alot in this thread/forum I would hire another law firm not mentioned in this thread. Word of mouth is the best way normally.
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@Ian wrote:
I am in a situation in a development in Calahonda – developers are bankrupt and although I have a bank guarantee, it is from an insurance company registered in Luxembourg. My lawyers (one that is frequently mentioned in this forum) tell me that there may be problems in enforcing the guarantee as the insurance company (Comagnie des Garanties SA) is not registered nor authorised to operate in Spain. This in spite of the fact that the guarantee is written in Spanish and has a Madrid branch (apparently). I would really appreciate any views on this topic, having just joined the forum for the first time today – contents are really useful. Is my lawyer at fault? Could I benefit from changing my lawyer? Many thanks.
The BG must be executed asap.
I don’t know what law firm you are refering to, albeit if you’ve seen it critisized alot in this thread/forum I would hire another law firm not mentioned in this thread. Word of mouth is the best way normally.
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Dear Drakan
Thank you, thank you – i now understand 100% in my head (you would make an excellent law professor!!). 😉
My only problem is that the developer is simply saying ‘we’re not paying’.
That I have to wait for the Bank Guarantee enforcement date of next year (which I now understand is not the case).But besides holding a gun to his head and marching him down to the bank (oh I wish 😀 ), what course is open to me -is it just the lengthy process of the courts?
I understand what I am now entitled to, but actually getting it is a different matter.
Sofia -
Dear Drakan
Thank you, thank you – i now understand 100% in my head (you would make an excellent law professor!!). 😉
My only problem is that the developer is simply saying ‘we’re not paying’.
That I have to wait for the Bank Guarantee enforcement date of next year (which I now understand is not the case).But besides holding a gun to his head and marching him down to the bank (oh I wish 😀 ), what course is open to me -is it just the lengthy process of the courts?
I understand what I am now entitled to, but actually getting it is a different matter.
Sofia -
Your lawyer must force him.
I’ve done it plenty of times for the law firm’s clients.
Specially developer A—s. I’ve recovered the funds of clients becaused they failed to come up with the Building Licence years after… and the clients got the 6% delay interest.
The BGs had nothing to do with the case, no bankruptcy involved whatsoever. The problem is your lawyer who is not fighting for you as I did formy clients. Move on and hire a good (=unbiassed) lawyer.
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Your lawyer must force him.
I’ve done it plenty of times for the law firm’s clients.
Specially developer A—s. I’ve recovered the funds of clients becaused they failed to come up with the Building Licence years after… and the clients got the 6% delay interest.
The BGs had nothing to do with the case, no bankruptcy involved whatsoever. The problem is your lawyer who is not fighting for you as I did formy clients. Move on and hire a good (=unbiassed) lawyer.
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Drakan,
I applaud you if you can secure clients deposits back from the clutches of A—s.
I have been reading on another site about a couple who paid 32000 euros deposit in 2001 on a development that is not going ahead. They have already paid out another 1000 euros in lawyers fees and have now been told it will cost 10000 to take the matter to court!
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Drakan,
I applaud you if you can secure clients deposits back from the clutches of A—s.
I have been reading on another site about a couple who paid 32000 euros deposit in 2001 on a development that is not going ahead. They have already paid out another 1000 euros in lawyers fees and have now been told it will cost 10000 to take the matter to court!
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Dorothy,
That it PRECISELY why we are not going down that route. It is costing us more money as it is with new lawyers to try and get OUR money returned to us. (ludicrous)! We have been advised (right or wrong?) that even though we should win the case, we are unlikely to have all our (getting bigger by the day!)costs paid to us…unlike the same scenario(which under UK law would not happen) in the UK.
As Paul says, it is down to the Spanish government not legislating against these people and enforcing the law. It is a joke!! But then why would they? they get a huge revenue from us. !
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Dorothy,
That it PRECISELY why we are not going down that route. It is costing us more money as it is with new lawyers to try and get OUR money returned to us. (ludicrous)! We have been advised (right or wrong?) that even though we should win the case, we are unlikely to have all our (getting bigger by the day!)costs paid to us…unlike the same scenario(which under UK law would not happen) in the UK.
As Paul says, it is down to the Spanish government not legislating against these people and enforcing the law. It is a joke!! But then why would they? they get a huge revenue from us. !
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THANK YOU DRAKAN for explaining about BG’s again. In your response to Sophia you say,
2.- The developer fails to obtain the Licencia de Obras or Building Licence. You DO NOT NEED THE BANK GUARANTEE AT ALL !! The developer hasn’t gone bust financially, that’s the specific purpose of the BG
The thing is, the developer did have the building licence, but it was revoked. So , does what you say still apply in that case? If so…………
…How much do we pay you to tell MARBELLA VISTA GOLF this? 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆I feel we are banging our heads against a brick wall. It is taking up so much of our lives. 🙁
Claire.
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THANK YOU DRAKAN for explaining about BG’s again. In your response to Sophia you say,
2.- The developer fails to obtain the Licencia de Obras or Building Licence. You DO NOT NEED THE BANK GUARANTEE AT ALL !! The developer hasn’t gone bust financially, that’s the specific purpose of the BG
The thing is, the developer did have the building licence, but it was revoked. So , does what you say still apply in that case? If so…………
…How much do we pay you to tell MARBELLA VISTA GOLF this? 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆I feel we are banging our heads against a brick wall. It is taking up so much of our lives. 🙁
Claire.
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sI have been reading various comments on the site and would just like to say that I find the impression that some subscribers give that all Spanish lawyers are incompetent or worse is somewhat unfair. Since 1986 I have been involved in various bussiness ventures in Spain and have found that it is no different than anywhere else if you do your research properly. I have known some lawyers who have not followed best practice but I have also encountered similar in the UK and the US. I have been working with 2 offices in Madrid and the Canary Islands for many years and do not feel I could find better anywhwere else in the world. I have come across many nationalities in Spain and what never ceases to amaze me, whether they be British, Swiss or other nationalities, is that they accept and sign things in Spain which they would never do at home. This I believe is the main source of problems.
As many countries Spain is marvellous just don’t sign or do anything you wouln’t do at home.
Terry
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sI have been reading various comments on the site and would just like to say that I find the impression that some subscribers give that all Spanish lawyers are incompetent or worse is somewhat unfair. Since 1986 I have been involved in various bussiness ventures in Spain and have found that it is no different than anywhere else if you do your research properly. I have known some lawyers who have not followed best practice but I have also encountered similar in the UK and the US. I have been working with 2 offices in Madrid and the Canary Islands for many years and do not feel I could find better anywhwere else in the world. I have come across many nationalities in Spain and what never ceases to amaze me, whether they be British, Swiss or other nationalities, is that they accept and sign things in Spain which they would never do at home. This I believe is the main source of problems.
As many countries Spain is marvellous just don’t sign or do anything you wouln’t do at home.
Terry
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@Claire wrote:
THANK YOU DRAKAN for explaining about BG’s again. In your response to Sophia you say,
2.- The developer fails to obtain the Licencia de Obras or Building Licence. You DO NOT NEED THE BANK GUARANTEE AT ALL !! The developer hasn’t gone bust financially, that’s the specific purpose of the BG
The thing is, the developer did have the building licence, but it was revoked. So , does what you say still apply in that case? If so…………
…How much do we pay you to tell MARBELLA VISTA GOLF this? 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆I feel we are banging our heads against a brick wall. It is taking up so much of our lives. 🙁
Claire.
Revoked Building Licence= no Building Licence; ergo breach of fundamental contractual clause: your lawyer should advise you to pull out and recover your monies plus 6% delay interest. I admit there ismore of a nuance to this particular case, albeit it still is an incumplimiento contractual fundamental.
Your lawyer hasn’t done that ? Start looking out for another unbiassed lawyer.
This is a free market economy, if your lawyer is not good, dump him/her and look for a more proficient lawyer. the difference between lawyers and law firms here is like comparing Zambia to the US, law firms are very different. Word of mouth I recommend.
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@Claire wrote:
THANK YOU DRAKAN for explaining about BG’s again. In your response to Sophia you say,
2.- The developer fails to obtain the Licencia de Obras or Building Licence. You DO NOT NEED THE BANK GUARANTEE AT ALL !! The developer hasn’t gone bust financially, that’s the specific purpose of the BG
The thing is, the developer did have the building licence, but it was revoked. So , does what you say still apply in that case? If so…………
…How much do we pay you to tell MARBELLA VISTA GOLF this? 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆I feel we are banging our heads against a brick wall. It is taking up so much of our lives. 🙁
Claire.
Revoked Building Licence= no Building Licence; ergo breach of fundamental contractual clause: your lawyer should advise you to pull out and recover your monies plus 6% delay interest. I admit there ismore of a nuance to this particular case, albeit it still is an incumplimiento contractual fundamental.
Your lawyer hasn’t done that ? Start looking out for another unbiassed lawyer.
This is a free market economy, if your lawyer is not good, dump him/her and look for a more proficient lawyer. the difference between lawyers and law firms here is like comparing Zambia to the US, law firms are very different. Word of mouth I recommend.
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Dear Drakan
Here is a question for you.
I telephoned the Policia Commissaria yesterday in Marbella.
I told them briefly my story of paying a developer 130,000 euros over 2 years ago for an off-plan apartment.
Also that the contract expires 31st Oct. 2005.
Not a brick has been built, nor ever will be (on the developer’s own admission).
We have asked for our money back (with legal 6% interest).
The developers refuse, saying we have to wait a year for the Bank Guarantee enforcement date (which I now know via your help is not the case).I asked is this a police matter.
The response was ‘Yes, it is a clear criminal offence (‘delito’).
You can make a ‘denuncia’ at the police station’.Would you recommend this as a route to go down to bring pressure on the developer or would this open a ‘can of worms’ in the form of starting a lenghty police/court intervention where perhaps the court would freeze all assets until the case is trialed.
And if they decide to freeze all assets of the developer, would this affect our Bank Guarantees if the police intervention dragged on for more than a year when the BG would become enforcable?
I’m just interested in your opinion on this.
Many thanks
Sofia -
Dear Drakan
Here is a question for you.
I telephoned the Policia Commissaria yesterday in Marbella.
I told them briefly my story of paying a developer 130,000 euros over 2 years ago for an off-plan apartment.
Also that the contract expires 31st Oct. 2005.
Not a brick has been built, nor ever will be (on the developer’s own admission).
We have asked for our money back (with legal 6% interest).
The developers refuse, saying we have to wait a year for the Bank Guarantee enforcement date (which I now know via your help is not the case).I asked is this a police matter.
The response was ‘Yes, it is a clear criminal offence (‘delito’).
You can make a ‘denuncia’ at the police station’.Would you recommend this as a route to go down to bring pressure on the developer or would this open a ‘can of worms’ in the form of starting a lenghty police/court intervention where perhaps the court would freeze all assets until the case is trialed.
And if they decide to freeze all assets of the developer, would this affect our Bank Guarantees if the police intervention dragged on for more than a year when the BG would become enforcable?
I’m just interested in your opinion on this.
Many thanks
Sofia -
Dear Sofía, the developer and -apparently- your lawyer are taking you for a ride. Waiting for a year for something you are entitled to now is allowing them time to shuffle their assets.
It is up to you. It is clear from the outset you are right. What more can I add ? Suffice has been written already. I for one wouldn’t allow anyone to fool with me.
The problem is that all these dodgy developers and Real Estate Agencies are still around is because you British/Irish clients don’t denounce them so the system is not officially aware of any problems because it never affects spanish clients and British in turn don’t denounce or are scared away by these huge firms.
We spanish buy with spanish EAs that charge us 3% and are official APIs. All these huge british REAs on the costa deal and prey on fellow countrymen, so the Spanish Authorities are not fully aware of any serious problems. British ought to have enough backbone and denounce irregularities, the laws are there but all of you are not making good use of them.
if I went to the UK and they had done this I would denounce asap and make it public. British sign documents in Spain without thinking twice, they would never do such a thing back in their homecountry.
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Dear Sofía, the developer and -apparently- your lawyer are taking you for a ride. Waiting for a year for something you are entitled to now is allowing them time to shuffle their assets.
It is up to you. It is clear from the outset you are right. What more can I add ? Suffice has been written already. I for one wouldn’t allow anyone to fool with me.
The problem is that all these dodgy developers and Real Estate Agencies are still around is because you British/Irish clients don’t denounce them so the system is not officially aware of any problems because it never affects spanish clients and British in turn don’t denounce or are scared away by these huge firms.
We spanish buy with spanish EAs that charge us 3% and are official APIs. All these huge british REAs on the costa deal and prey on fellow countrymen, so the Spanish Authorities are not fully aware of any serious problems. British ought to have enough backbone and denounce irregularities, the laws are there but all of you are not making good use of them.
if I went to the UK and they had done this I would denounce asap and make it public. British sign documents in Spain without thinking twice, they would never do such a thing back in their homecountry.
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Thanks for your earlier reply Drakan about Estate Agents’ responsibility also (not just lawyers) to their clients regarding mis-selling, in fact this is the route I took with Awful, I held them responsible and hassled them as well as DLM (lawyers).
I think you are correct too regarding British Agents often misleading their own countrymen as well as charging their excessive commissions.
What chance is there of Brits etc making their complaints heard with Spain’s regulators, and the regulators clamping down hard on these agents?
Paul
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Thanks for your earlier reply Drakan about Estate Agents’ responsibility also (not just lawyers) to their clients regarding mis-selling, in fact this is the route I took with Awful, I held them responsible and hassled them as well as DLM (lawyers).
I think you are correct too regarding British Agents often misleading their own countrymen as well as charging their excessive commissions.
What chance is there of Brits etc making their complaints heard with Spain’s regulators, and the regulators clamping down hard on these agents?
Paul
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British ought to have enough backbone and denounce irregularities, the laws are there but all of you are not making good use of them.
Dear Drakan
I instigated Denounica against Awful Estates my problem was my Lawyer (nothing to do with them) advised me against it = because
1. it would take years for anything to happen
2. I would have to be here to attend police station and courts.
3. Obviously it would all be transacted in Spanish and Legal spanish at that.
4.They have greater resourses then me and he felt they would “influence” the court to either drag it out or throw it out.and finally he had heard a rumour there was dozens of others already filled against them but no action had been taken because of the amount of cash they bring to Marbella’s economy!!!!
Nor really giving you any faith in Legal System on CDS
😥
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British ought to have enough backbone and denounce irregularities, the laws are there but all of you are not making good use of them.
Dear Drakan
I instigated Denounica against Awful Estates my problem was my Lawyer (nothing to do with them) advised me against it = because
1. it would take years for anything to happen
2. I would have to be here to attend police station and courts.
3. Obviously it would all be transacted in Spanish and Legal spanish at that.
4.They have greater resourses then me and he felt they would “influence” the court to either drag it out or throw it out.and finally he had heard a rumour there was dozens of others already filled against them but no action had been taken because of the amount of cash they bring to Marbella’s economy!!!!
Nor really giving you any faith in Legal System on CDS
😥
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@banushouse wrote:
British ought to have enough backbone and denounce irregularities, the laws are there but all of you are not making good use of them.
Dear Drakan
I instigated Denounica against Awful Estates my problem was my Lawyer (nothing to do with them) advised me against it = because
1. it would take years for anything to happen
2. I would have to be here to attend police station and courts.
3. Obviously it would all be transacted in Spanish and Legal spanish at that.
4.They have greater resourses then me and he felt they would “influence” the court to either drag it out or throw it out.and finally he had heard a rumour there was dozens of others already filled against them but no action had been taken because of the amount of cash they bring to Marbella’s economy!!!!
Nor really giving you any faith in Legal System on CDS
😥
1.true
2.true
3.true
4.I doubt it.Then please don’t come over to the forum and critisize tha spanish at large. it is up to you (speaking in general terms to all forum-users) to take the matter further legally. The laws are there.
If I think they’ve wronged me I would sue only as a last resort, knowing them, it is the resort.
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@banushouse wrote:
British ought to have enough backbone and denounce irregularities, the laws are there but all of you are not making good use of them.
Dear Drakan
I instigated Denounica against Awful Estates my problem was my Lawyer (nothing to do with them) advised me against it = because
1. it would take years for anything to happen
2. I would have to be here to attend police station and courts.
3. Obviously it would all be transacted in Spanish and Legal spanish at that.
4.They have greater resourses then me and he felt they would “influence” the court to either drag it out or throw it out.and finally he had heard a rumour there was dozens of others already filled against them but no action had been taken because of the amount of cash they bring to Marbella’s economy!!!!
Nor really giving you any faith in Legal System on CDS
😥
1.true
2.true
3.true
4.I doubt it.Then please don’t come over to the forum and critisize tha spanish at large. it is up to you (speaking in general terms to all forum-users) to take the matter further legally. The laws are there.
If I think they’ve wronged me I would sue only as a last resort, knowing them, it is the resort.
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Then please don’t come over to the forum and critisize tha spanish at large.
I dont think that was what I was doing, on the contrary I choose to live here because I respect the spanish race.
I think we critisise the corruption along the CDS/Marbella region. Most of which is evidenced by ENGLISH estate agents preying on mainly english people. Unfortunately as evidenced by the White WHale scandal – they have corrupted a number of local lawyers along the way.! That coupled with the Spanish tendancy to be honest and friendly(agreeable) means that the property developer criminals on the Coast have been able to lie to the inexperienced spanish lawyers. Remember these people can con the most experienced lawyers and buyers, unless you are looking for the problems with Licenses/Bank Guanatees etc you would belive their lies.
After all is a huge company which built hotels, on paper you would not expect them to con your client – unless you had dealt with them before.? 😈
Likewise because most of the Spanish agencies have to have all the correct paperwork and licenses – why would you expect the leading EA on the coast NOT to have its paperwork in order??? How many people where suprised when Intereality closed down, I think in terms of offices they where the biggest in Andalucia??
Buying property here is a nightmare for the unsophisticated buyer – stick to resale property and you will avoid 90% of the problems.
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Then please don’t come over to the forum and critisize tha spanish at large.
I dont think that was what I was doing, on the contrary I choose to live here because I respect the spanish race.
I think we critisise the corruption along the CDS/Marbella region. Most of which is evidenced by ENGLISH estate agents preying on mainly english people. Unfortunately as evidenced by the White WHale scandal – they have corrupted a number of local lawyers along the way.! That coupled with the Spanish tendancy to be honest and friendly(agreeable) means that the property developer criminals on the Coast have been able to lie to the inexperienced spanish lawyers. Remember these people can con the most experienced lawyers and buyers, unless you are looking for the problems with Licenses/Bank Guanatees etc you would belive their lies.
After all is a huge company which built hotels, on paper you would not expect them to con your client – unless you had dealt with them before.? 😈
Likewise because most of the Spanish agencies have to have all the correct paperwork and licenses – why would you expect the leading EA on the coast NOT to have its paperwork in order??? How many people where suprised when Intereality closed down, I think in terms of offices they where the biggest in Andalucia??
Buying property here is a nightmare for the unsophisticated buyer – stick to resale property and you will avoid 90% of the problems.
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Dear Drakan
We would like to ask you a question if we may.
As you probably realise, we are in the same situation with the same development as Claire and Sofia.Our Bank Guarantee was ‘produced’ in May 2005, despite our having paid 30% of the purchase price of the apartment in August 2003.
(I know, our lawyers were lazy, incompetent and derelict of their duty to take nearly 2 years to get our BG).When we finally get to enforce the BG, we understand we’ll get the legal 6% interest from the Bank.
However, we assume the bank concerned will only pay the 6% interest for the life of the Guarantee – i.e. from May 2005. Is this correct?Our question is:
Who is responsible for paying us 6% interest for the period August 2003 until May 2005 when the BG was instigated? We assume our money was sitting with the developer – is it he who has to pay?
The sum is not small – 130,000 euros.Assuming your answer is that the developer should pay, and saying they won’t/don’t – can we sue our lawyer for this sum on the basis that it was their derelict of duty that caused this situation?
Would really appreciate you reply to this one – we are shortly off to Spain to pay some visits! 😈
With many thanks, Drakan
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Dear Drakan
We would like to ask you a question if we may.
As you probably realise, we are in the same situation with the same development as Claire and Sofia.Our Bank Guarantee was ‘produced’ in May 2005, despite our having paid 30% of the purchase price of the apartment in August 2003.
(I know, our lawyers were lazy, incompetent and derelict of their duty to take nearly 2 years to get our BG).When we finally get to enforce the BG, we understand we’ll get the legal 6% interest from the Bank.
However, we assume the bank concerned will only pay the 6% interest for the life of the Guarantee – i.e. from May 2005. Is this correct?Our question is:
Who is responsible for paying us 6% interest for the period August 2003 until May 2005 when the BG was instigated? We assume our money was sitting with the developer – is it he who has to pay?
The sum is not small – 130,000 euros.Assuming your answer is that the developer should pay, and saying they won’t/don’t – can we sue our lawyer for this sum on the basis that it was their derelict of duty that caused this situation?
Would really appreciate you reply to this one – we are shortly off to Spain to pay some visits! 😈
With many thanks, Drakan
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Dear Drakan
Thanks for all your replies which have been soo helpful, not only to me but loads of others who you take the time to respond to.
For my part at least, please don’t think we take this (free) help for granted, because I certainly don’t.Can I ask – Would a title deed obtained from the Public Notary show not only the current owner of the land and the date they purchased this land, but also who the previous owner was (in other words, will it show who they purchased it from)?
If it does not show the previous owner, is there any way of finding out this information?
With thanks
Sofia -
Dear Drakan
Thanks for all your replies which have been soo helpful, not only to me but loads of others who you take the time to respond to.
For my part at least, please don’t think we take this (free) help for granted, because I certainly don’t.Can I ask – Would a title deed obtained from the Public Notary show not only the current owner of the land and the date they purchased this land, but also who the previous owner was (in other words, will it show who they purchased it from)?
If it does not show the previous owner, is there any way of finding out this information?
With thanks
Sofia -
Guest, you asked about the lawyers in the glass building and possible involvement in the above, I replied ‘factually’ but my reply appears to have been deleted, don’t know why!
You can email me on paulgiahux@hotmail.com for fuller details, but I would not use that firm of lawyers.
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Guest, you asked about the lawyers in the glass building and possible involvement in the above, I replied ‘factually’ but my reply appears to have been deleted, don’t know why!
You can email me on paulgiahux@hotmail.com for fuller details, but I would not use that firm of lawyers.
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@Barbara & Katerina wrote:
Dear Drakan
We would like to ask you a question if we may.
As you probably realise, we are in the same situation with the same development as Claire and Sofia.Our Bank Guarantee was ‘produced’ in May 2005, despite our having paid 30% of the purchase price of the apartment in August 2003.
(I know, our lawyers were lazy, incompetent and derelict of their duty to take nearly 2 years to get our BG).When we finally get to enforce the BG, we understand we’ll get the legal 6% interest from the Bank.
However, we assume the bank concerned will only pay the 6% interest for the life of the Guarantee – i.e. from May 2005. Is this correct?Our question is:
Who is responsible for paying us 6% interest for the period August 2003 until May 2005 when the BG was instigated? We assume our money was sitting with the developer – is it he who has to pay?
The sum is not small – 130,000 euros.Assuming your answer is that the developer should pay, and saying they won’t/don’t – can we sue our lawyer for this sum on the basis that it was their derelict of duty that caused this situation?
Would really appreciate you reply to this one – we are shortly off to Spain to pay some visits! 😈
With many thanks, Drakan
Hi Katerina.
Wrong. The 6% compound interest is due since the time of the downpayment,in this case year 2003 which was when you paid the 30%.
The developer has to pay for the 6% since 2003.
You realize what I’ve written regarding the BGs ? they are there only If the developer goes broke. If he’s not broke they cannot be enforced in any way.
If the case is that the developer is not broke albeit he’s failed to obtain the Building Licence you’re still entitled to be fully refunded, plus 6% compound interest plus other amounts. Look at past posts in this thread.
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@Barbara & Katerina wrote:
Dear Drakan
We would like to ask you a question if we may.
As you probably realise, we are in the same situation with the same development as Claire and Sofia.Our Bank Guarantee was ‘produced’ in May 2005, despite our having paid 30% of the purchase price of the apartment in August 2003.
(I know, our lawyers were lazy, incompetent and derelict of their duty to take nearly 2 years to get our BG).When we finally get to enforce the BG, we understand we’ll get the legal 6% interest from the Bank.
However, we assume the bank concerned will only pay the 6% interest for the life of the Guarantee – i.e. from May 2005. Is this correct?Our question is:
Who is responsible for paying us 6% interest for the period August 2003 until May 2005 when the BG was instigated? We assume our money was sitting with the developer – is it he who has to pay?
The sum is not small – 130,000 euros.Assuming your answer is that the developer should pay, and saying they won’t/don’t – can we sue our lawyer for this sum on the basis that it was their derelict of duty that caused this situation?
Would really appreciate you reply to this one – we are shortly off to Spain to pay some visits! 😈
With many thanks, Drakan
Hi Katerina.
Wrong. The 6% compound interest is due since the time of the downpayment,in this case year 2003 which was when you paid the 30%.
The developer has to pay for the 6% since 2003.
You realize what I’ve written regarding the BGs ? they are there only If the developer goes broke. If he’s not broke they cannot be enforced in any way.
If the case is that the developer is not broke albeit he’s failed to obtain the Building Licence you’re still entitled to be fully refunded, plus 6% compound interest plus other amounts. Look at past posts in this thread.
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@Sofia wrote:
Dear Drakan
Thanks for all your replies which have been soo helpful, not only to me but loads of others who you take the time to respond to.
For my part at least, please don’t think we take this (free) help for granted, because I certainly don’t.Can I ask – Would a title deed obtained from the Public Notary show not only the current owner of the land and the date they purchased this land, but also who the previous owner was (in other words, will it show who they purchased it from)?
If it does not show the previous owner, is there any way of finding out this information?
With thanks
SofiaHi Sofia.
Thanks for your kind words. 😉
Yes indeed.
The Title Deed (Escritura de Compraventa) will certainly state who the seller (previous owner was). All you need is the Notarie’s “número de protocolo” (registry number) and know the name of the Notary Public. And obviously pay for a copy.
In the Land Registry they also keep a detailed record of all previous owners of all properties.
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@Sofia wrote:
Dear Drakan
Thanks for all your replies which have been soo helpful, not only to me but loads of others who you take the time to respond to.
For my part at least, please don’t think we take this (free) help for granted, because I certainly don’t.Can I ask – Would a title deed obtained from the Public Notary show not only the current owner of the land and the date they purchased this land, but also who the previous owner was (in other words, will it show who they purchased it from)?
If it does not show the previous owner, is there any way of finding out this information?
With thanks
SofiaHi Sofia.
Thanks for your kind words. 😉
Yes indeed.
The Title Deed (Escritura de Compraventa) will certainly state who the seller (previous owner was). All you need is the Notarie’s “número de protocolo” (registry number) and know the name of the Notary Public. And obviously pay for a copy.
In the Land Registry they also keep a detailed record of all previous owners of all properties.
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Dear Drakan
Many thanks for your reply, much appreciated to know where we stand on this – because Monday we are coming over to Marbella 8)
a) We are meeting a new (recommended) lawyer 😀
and
b) To have a meeting with the lawyer of the developers. 👿
To give you an insight on what we are dealing with, we have found out
that his ‘position’ at this meeting is going to be:quote
i) what is your problem, you are guaranteed to get your money back next September 2006 re. Bank Guarantee enforcement date (!!)ii) this development has lost us a lot of money, we have had to pay a lot of commissions to agents etc. and now this development is not going ahead we can’t afford to give you your money back now.
iii) we have offered you alternative apartments at alternative developments of ours at a discount, that you can complete on immediately, so why not choose one of those?
(He knows we have sold our house this year expecting to move to Spain – because they ‘forgot’ to tell us a year ago when they knew the development was not going ahead!!).We have already instructed our lawyer to start the procedure for the Requerimiento Notarial to get our contract made null and void (contract expired last weekend) as a first step.
So, it looks like we are going to have a great meeting, but we are well-armed with information of where we actually legally stand with the help of Spanish Law websites, and helpful information from you Drakan (we feel we are now experts on the subject of Bank Guarantees!).
On our return, will let you know how we get on –
Thanks again for all your help
Barbara and Katerina -
Dear Drakan
Many thanks for your reply, much appreciated to know where we stand on this – because Monday we are coming over to Marbella 8)
a) We are meeting a new (recommended) lawyer 😀
and
b) To have a meeting with the lawyer of the developers. 👿
To give you an insight on what we are dealing with, we have found out
that his ‘position’ at this meeting is going to be:quote
i) what is your problem, you are guaranteed to get your money back next September 2006 re. Bank Guarantee enforcement date (!!)ii) this development has lost us a lot of money, we have had to pay a lot of commissions to agents etc. and now this development is not going ahead we can’t afford to give you your money back now.
iii) we have offered you alternative apartments at alternative developments of ours at a discount, that you can complete on immediately, so why not choose one of those?
(He knows we have sold our house this year expecting to move to Spain – because they ‘forgot’ to tell us a year ago when they knew the development was not going ahead!!).We have already instructed our lawyer to start the procedure for the Requerimiento Notarial to get our contract made null and void (contract expired last weekend) as a first step.
So, it looks like we are going to have a great meeting, but we are well-armed with information of where we actually legally stand with the help of Spanish Law websites, and helpful information from you Drakan (we feel we are now experts on the subject of Bank Guarantees!).
On our return, will let you know how we get on –
Thanks again for all your help
Barbara and Katerina -
Hello Drakan.
In a response to Katerina, you wrote:
You realize what I’ve written regarding the BGs ? they are there only If the developer goes broke. If he’s not broke they cannot be enforced in any way.
By this ,do you mean that a Bank Guarantee can only be enforced IF the developers are bankrupt? If they are not bankrupt then do you mean the BG is of no use, that we have to demand the money directly from the directors of the development company?……………or am I being very stupid. ???….Don’t answer that bit!! 😀
Claire.
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Hello Drakan.
In a response to Katerina, you wrote:
You realize what I’ve written regarding the BGs ? they are there only If the developer goes broke. If he’s not broke they cannot be enforced in any way.
By this ,do you mean that a Bank Guarantee can only be enforced IF the developers are bankrupt? If they are not bankrupt then do you mean the BG is of no use, that we have to demand the money directly from the directors of the development company?……………or am I being very stupid. ???….Don’t answer that bit!! 😀
Claire.
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@Claire wrote:
Hello Drakan.
In a response to Katerina, you wrote:
You realize what I’ve written regarding the BGs ? they are there only If the developer goes broke. If he’s not broke they cannot be enforced in any way.
By this ,do you mean that a Bank Guarantee can only be enforced IF the developers are bankrupt? If they are not bankrupt then do you mean the BG is of no use, that we have to demand the money directly from the directors of the development company?……………or am I being very stupid. ???….Don’t answer that bit!! 😀
Claire.
Interesting one that.
Surely it depends on a clause in your contract covering failure to complete within a specified timescale? (If the contract has such a clause.)
Ours said that the guarantee would kick in for this circumstance…unfortunately the developer didn’t take it out and the ‘lawyer’ never checked it. -
@Claire wrote:
Hello Drakan.
In a response to Katerina, you wrote:
You realize what I’ve written regarding the BGs ? they are there only If the developer goes broke. If he’s not broke they cannot be enforced in any way.
By this ,do you mean that a Bank Guarantee can only be enforced IF the developers are bankrupt? If they are not bankrupt then do you mean the BG is of no use, that we have to demand the money directly from the directors of the development company?……………or am I being very stupid. ???….Don’t answer that bit!! 😀
Claire.
Interesting one that.
Surely it depends on a clause in your contract covering failure to complete within a specified timescale? (If the contract has such a clause.)
Ours said that the guarantee would kick in for this circumstance…unfortunately the developer didn’t take it out and the ‘lawyer’ never checked it. -
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-
@Claire wrote:
Hello Drakan.
In a response to Katerina, you wrote:
You realize what I’ve written regarding the BGs ? they are there only If the developer goes broke. If he’s not broke they cannot be enforced in any way.
By this ,do you mean that a Bank Guarantee can only be enforced IF the developers are bankrupt? If they are not bankrupt then do you mean the BG is of no use, that we have to demand the money directly from the directors of the development company?……………or am I being very stupid. ???….Don’t answer that bit!! 😀
Claire.
Hi Claire.
The BGs are there acting as a security net shoud the developer default payments (i.e. goes bankrupt).
If the developer fails to obtain the Building Licence to the best of my knowlegde those BGs cannot be employed (would have to look at the specific contractual wording, mind you).
The developer normally tries to offer you a substitute flat in some other promotion of his at a discount. You can take it If you want, but legally you are entitled to pull out of the contract asap, have all your monies refunded and be paid a 6% delay interest.
Developers hate this, because they are playing with your money in other developments and will put up a somewhat of a fuss over it.
It normally takes up tp 6 months to have all your money refunded plus 6% delay interest.
As you can see I haven’t mentioned the BGs because they cannot be employed/executed in such a scenario. If the developer is talking of waiting and executing the BGS at a later date he’s buying time for some reason or other.
You do not have to wait at all. Speak with a lawyer. Once they failed to come up with the Building Licence because they have breached a fundamental/essential clause/condition. The BGs are not there for that case only in case of bankruptcy.
I hope this explanation clears, definitely, queries on this issue.
Regards,
Drakan -
@Claire wrote:
Hello Drakan.
In a response to Katerina, you wrote:
You realize what I’ve written regarding the BGs ? they are there only If the developer goes broke. If he’s not broke they cannot be enforced in any way.
By this ,do you mean that a Bank Guarantee can only be enforced IF the developers are bankrupt? If they are not bankrupt then do you mean the BG is of no use, that we have to demand the money directly from the directors of the development company?……………or am I being very stupid. ???….Don’t answer that bit!! 😀
Claire.
Hi Claire.
The BGs are there acting as a security net shoud the developer default payments (i.e. goes bankrupt).
If the developer fails to obtain the Building Licence to the best of my knowlegde those BGs cannot be employed (would have to look at the specific contractual wording, mind you).
The developer normally tries to offer you a substitute flat in some other promotion of his at a discount. You can take it If you want, but legally you are entitled to pull out of the contract asap, have all your monies refunded and be paid a 6% delay interest.
Developers hate this, because they are playing with your money in other developments and will put up a somewhat of a fuss over it.
It normally takes up tp 6 months to have all your money refunded plus 6% delay interest.
As you can see I haven’t mentioned the BGs because they cannot be employed/executed in such a scenario. If the developer is talking of waiting and executing the BGS at a later date he’s buying time for some reason or other.
You do not have to wait at all. Speak with a lawyer. Once they failed to come up with the Building Licence because they have breached a fundamental/essential clause/condition. The BGs are not there for that case only in case of bankruptcy.
I hope this explanation clears, definitely, queries on this issue.
Regards,
Drakan -
hello draken if you were my lawyer and i bought of plan the agent said i could give my reservation to you if i did not trust them untill the building licnece came through , so i gave you my resavation but neither party signed anything no resavation contract if i wanted to pull out been mested around by agent,could i get my resavation fee of you, but could it work other way when building licence comes through the agent could put the price up as neither party has signed thanks you
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hello draken if you were my lawyer and i bought of plan the agent said i could give my reservation to you if i did not trust them untill the building licnece came through , so i gave you my resavation but neither party signed anything no resavation contract if i wanted to pull out been mested around by agent,could i get my resavation fee of you, but could it work other way when building licence comes through the agent could put the price up as neither party has signed thanks you
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@Anonymous wrote:
hello draken if you were my lawyer and i bought of plan the agent said i could give my reservation to you if i did not trust them untill the building licnece came through , so i gave you my resavation but neither party signed anything no resavation contract if i wanted to pull out been mested around by agent,could i get my resavation fee of you, but could it work other way when building licence comes through the agent could put the price up as neither party has signed thanks you
Hi anonymous.
You have to sign a contract beforehand of course,otherwise they could seriously mess up with you altering the initial verbal contractual conditions. As we say in Spanish, “lo que no está escrito, no existe”.
And btw, I’m not soliciting clients over the net. I refuse to accept any clients from internet as I would be laid off from my firm on the spot. So please no PMs attempting to hire me as a lawyer to anyone.
This thread is bona fides.
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@Anonymous wrote:
hello draken if you were my lawyer and i bought of plan the agent said i could give my reservation to you if i did not trust them untill the building licnece came through , so i gave you my resavation but neither party signed anything no resavation contract if i wanted to pull out been mested around by agent,could i get my resavation fee of you, but could it work other way when building licence comes through the agent could put the price up as neither party has signed thanks you
Hi anonymous.
You have to sign a contract beforehand of course,otherwise they could seriously mess up with you altering the initial verbal contractual conditions. As we say in Spanish, “lo que no está escrito, no existe”.
And btw, I’m not soliciting clients over the net. I refuse to accept any clients from internet as I would be laid off from my firm on the spot. So please no PMs attempting to hire me as a lawyer to anyone.
This thread is bona fides.
-
Hi Drakan, I spoke to you recently about my apartment which is involved in the white whale case which I also want to cancel the contract. I have managed to get the contract from my lawyer and I would like to get it translated into English as I never get a very good response from my lawyer when I ask about my cancellation rights etc. The lawyer I am using does not offer the service to translate and was wondering if you could recomend anyone who could do this for me and also roughly how much this service would cost?
thanks very much
Alex -
Hi Drakan, I spoke to you recently about my apartment which is involved in the white whale case which I also want to cancel the contract. I have managed to get the contract from my lawyer and I would like to get it translated into English as I never get a very good response from my lawyer when I ask about my cancellation rights etc. The lawyer I am using does not offer the service to translate and was wondering if you could recomend anyone who could do this for me and also roughly how much this service would cost?
thanks very much
Alex -
@Anonymous wrote:
Hi Drakan, I spoke to you recently about my apartment which is involved in the white whale case which I also want to cancel the contract. I have managed to get the contract from my lawyer and I would like to get it translated into English as I never get a very good response from my lawyer when I ask about my cancellation rights etc. The lawyer I am using does not offer the service to translate and was wondering if you could recomend anyone who could do this for me and also roughly how much this service would cost?
thanks very much
AlexHi Alex. I’m afraid I don’t like recommending people.
PM Mark for recommendations and trustworthy people.
What you need is a traductor jurado or chartered translator for an official translation. It costs alot. Approx 12-20 euros per page. Negotiate the fee with him or else seek someone who is proficient at Spanish and is willing to translate it for considerably less. You don’t really need an official translation, do you ? A chartered translator might be a bit of an overkill I guess.
Normally your lawyer should translate it for you perhaps for a small extra or included in the 1% fee. At least that’s what we do.
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@Anonymous wrote:
Hi Drakan, I spoke to you recently about my apartment which is involved in the white whale case which I also want to cancel the contract. I have managed to get the contract from my lawyer and I would like to get it translated into English as I never get a very good response from my lawyer when I ask about my cancellation rights etc. The lawyer I am using does not offer the service to translate and was wondering if you could recomend anyone who could do this for me and also roughly how much this service would cost?
thanks very much
AlexHi Alex. I’m afraid I don’t like recommending people.
PM Mark for recommendations and trustworthy people.
What you need is a traductor jurado or chartered translator for an official translation. It costs alot. Approx 12-20 euros per page. Negotiate the fee with him or else seek someone who is proficient at Spanish and is willing to translate it for considerably less. You don’t really need an official translation, do you ? A chartered translator might be a bit of an overkill I guess.
Normally your lawyer should translate it for you perhaps for a small extra or included in the 1% fee. At least that’s what we do.
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