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Interview with Diego Martín Reyes – Interim Marbella Committee President
“We feel the judges haven’t been behind us”
How would you sum up the last year?
It has been very positive. Although it is true that we started with great enthusiasm, an eagerness to do things, and when we discovered the reality and the conditions this imposed we felt quite frustrated. However we have returned the Town Hall to normality.
What about the institutional support you have received?
The Junta de Andalucía has been splendid. When I have needed to speak to Manuel Chaves he has answered. I can’t say the same for the central administration. I wrote to the Prime Minister and he didn’t answer, but neither did Judge Torres for that matter. In fact we feel that the judicial system has not been behind us. The Law has to be interpreted and applied according to the situation. Sentences forcing us to reinstate people who face serious charges worry me. Something has to be wrong.
SurinEnglish Copyright
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After much anguish have decided to post my ‘news’ 👿
My case went to Court on Monday.
Despite the facts that:
Development is Illegally built, & has no Habitation Licence
The Developer has been arrested & charged with bribary in the Malaya Case, now on bail
The Apt. was one year late in being completed
The Developer did not provide me with a Bank Guarantee which is required by Law
The whole complex has not been completed in accordance with the original plans=I now have to go back to court in December, as the Developer wants to try & prove I bought only to re-sell before completion. So now they have turned the tables & I am now the one on trial also. Their argument is totally ludicrous to bring before a Judge IMHO. Almost another year that they have my money & I have nothing in return. It’s a long journey but apparently this is the way things are done.
I have been swaying between despair & spitting blood this week, but thanks to this forum & the great PMs of support & encouragement I have now regained my sanity – hopefully ❗ We’ll see what happens about the Licences on Monday.
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After much anguish have decided to post my ‘news’ 👿
My case went to Court on Monday.
Despite the facts that:
Development is Illegally built, & has no Habitation Licence
The Developer has been arrested & charged with bribary in the Malaya Case, now on bail
The Apt. was one year late in being completed
The Developer did not provide me with a Bank Guarantee which is required by Law
The whole complex has not been completed in accordance with the original plans=I now have to go back to court in December, as the Developer wants to try & prove I bought only to re-sell before completion. So now they have turned the tables & I am now the one on trial also. Their argument is totally ludicrous to bring before a Judge IMHO. Almost another year that they have my money & I have nothing in return. It’s a long journey but apparently this is the way things are done.
I have been swaying between despair & spitting blood this week, but thanks to this forum & the great PMs of support & encouragement I have now regained my sanity – hopefully ❗ We’ll see what happens about the Licences on Monday.
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I defintely agree Suzanne that the courts are not playing their part in helping to bring justice to the current situation.
I know of several cases now where people have gone to court to claim the return of their money back on developments that have no legal standing and therefore they have no legal property to complete on. No legal building licence – it’s been suspended/under judicial review, no LFO, is months if not years overdue so in total breach of contract etc.
And what keeps happening? The judge may find in the purchaser’s favour, but the developer (or the bank, if claiming on the Bank Guarantee), automatically appeals any court decision, thus requiring an appeal hearing often taking up to another year to be heard. Meanwhile the agony of waiting to see if the purchasers’ monies will be returned, and their life put on hold as a consequence, is dragged on into the distant future.
I think judges in these cases should look at: no current legal building licence, no LFO, breach of contract – nothing to appeal about therefore appeal denied.
With every case having to be tried twice because of this automatic appeal strategy by the developers and banks, besides the prolonged agony for the people involved, no wonder the courts are clogged up.
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I defintely agree Suzanne that the courts are not playing their part in helping to bring justice to the current situation.
I know of several cases now where people have gone to court to claim the return of their money back on developments that have no legal standing and therefore they have no legal property to complete on. No legal building licence – it’s been suspended/under judicial review, no LFO, is months if not years overdue so in total breach of contract etc.
And what keeps happening? The judge may find in the purchaser’s favour, but the developer (or the bank, if claiming on the Bank Guarantee), automatically appeals any court decision, thus requiring an appeal hearing often taking up to another year to be heard. Meanwhile the agony of waiting to see if the purchasers’ monies will be returned, and their life put on hold as a consequence, is dragged on into the distant future.
I think judges in these cases should look at: no current legal building licence, no LFO, breach of contract – nothing to appeal about therefore appeal denied.
With every case having to be tried twice because of this automatic appeal strategy by the developers and banks, besides the prolonged agony for the people involved, no wonder the courts are clogged up.
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I think your case Suzanne is all the more shameful because the ‘opposition’ sought a delay while they try and locate a so-called ‘witness’.
The judge should have ruled that if they couldn’t find him before the trial, and goodness knows they had months to do that, then tough. To make you wait until December because they couldn’t locate their witness is absolutely ridiculous. In any case, even if you had bought as an invester, this does not affect your civil rights within the law. All the laws governing contracts, obligations etc. are valid – whatever the reason behind you making your purchase.
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I think your case Suzanne is all the more shameful because the ‘opposition’ sought a delay while they try and locate a so-called ‘witness’.
The judge should have ruled that if they couldn’t find him before the trial, and goodness knows they had months to do that, then tough. To make you wait until December because they couldn’t locate their witness is absolutely ridiculous. In any case, even if you had bought as an invester, this does not affect your civil rights within the law. All the laws governing contracts, obligations etc. are valid – whatever the reason behind you making your purchase.
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@charlie wrote:
….. In any case, even if you had bought as an invester, this does not affect your civil rights within the law. All the laws governing contracts, obligations etc. are valid – whatever the reason behind you making your purchase.
Exactly Charlie, & how can someone be accused for not selling a property without an LFO ❗
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@charlie wrote:
….. In any case, even if you had bought as an invester, this does not affect your civil rights within the law. All the laws governing contracts, obligations etc. are valid – whatever the reason behind you making your purchase.
Exactly Charlie, & how can someone be accused for not selling a property without an LFO ❗
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@Suzanne wrote:
….it now seems that if you do not complete without one (LFO) the developers have every right to take you to Court.
This is only true if it is specifically stated in your contract, for example that completion is due when the architect’s End of Works Certificate is produced.
And this is where a good lawyer comes in and is so necessary. He/she would never agree to such a clause as a protection for his client.The reason the Licence of First Occupation law was brought in in the first place was to protect purchasers, so that they are not legally obliged to complete without one. The LFO would prove your property has been inspected and passed by a Town Hall offical and is therefore deemed legally habitable.
But certain developers just spit on the law and tie you up in knots by putting illegal clauses in their contracts that basically go against the spirit of this law.
As far as I understand, once this illegal clause in your contract has been agreed to by the fact you signed it – there is nothing you can do. -
@Suzanne wrote:
….it now seems that if you do not complete without one (LFO) the developers have every right to take you to Court.
This is only true if it is specifically stated in your contract, for example that completion is due when the architect’s End of Works Certificate is produced.
And this is where a good lawyer comes in and is so necessary. He/she would never agree to such a clause as a protection for his client.The reason the Licence of First Occupation law was brought in in the first place was to protect purchasers, so that they are not legally obliged to complete without one. The LFO would prove your property has been inspected and passed by a Town Hall offical and is therefore deemed legally habitable.
But certain developers just spit on the law and tie you up in knots by putting illegal clauses in their contracts that basically go against the spirit of this law.
As far as I understand, once this illegal clause in your contract has been agreed to by the fact you signed it – there is nothing you can do. -
Suzanne
well well, doesn’t this just confirm how pathetic and unfair the courts in Spain really are sometimes. How clear can it be? How hard is it to know right from wrong?, and what message does this send to the low-life we are up against!
I feel that if the courts cannot do their job, then as a European country, why the hell can’t that be recognised as an injustice and a system put in place to give people a chance to be heard in a place that does know how to do the right thing.
I am angry and appalled, for you and us, because our case is similar in some ways to yours, and it looks like we may well face the same injustice. What else can we say? we are in the right, the developers are in the wrong and the courts are either to dumb or corrupt to accept it, and are forcing you wait many months longer for another trial in a one sided case. I despair, i really do! I feel that anyone who turns round and says ‘this is not the UK, this is how it is in Spain’, need their arse kicking as much as the useless judges in some cases such as yours.
All the best, good luck and try to keep your chin up, i believe you will have the support of all decent people everywhere.
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Suzanne
well well, doesn’t this just confirm how pathetic and unfair the courts in Spain really are sometimes. How clear can it be? How hard is it to know right from wrong?, and what message does this send to the low-life we are up against!
I feel that if the courts cannot do their job, then as a European country, why the hell can’t that be recognised as an injustice and a system put in place to give people a chance to be heard in a place that does know how to do the right thing.
I am angry and appalled, for you and us, because our case is similar in some ways to yours, and it looks like we may well face the same injustice. What else can we say? we are in the right, the developers are in the wrong and the courts are either to dumb or corrupt to accept it, and are forcing you wait many months longer for another trial in a one sided case. I despair, i really do! I feel that anyone who turns round and says ‘this is not the UK, this is how it is in Spain’, need their arse kicking as much as the useless judges in some cases such as yours.
All the best, good luck and try to keep your chin up, i believe you will have the support of all decent people everywhere.
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Suzanne,
I am absolutely devastated at your news. From everything I have read from you on this board it seemed like it was just a waiting game before justice was done. How can they possibly behave this way? How can we trust anything in Spain when the developers are considered so far above the law that they can write their own rules and neither the judges nor the government have any will to change this. I am so so sorry that this is happening to you.
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Suzanne,
I am absolutely devastated at your news. From everything I have read from you on this board it seemed like it was just a waiting game before justice was done. How can they possibly behave this way? How can we trust anything in Spain when the developers are considered so far above the law that they can write their own rules and neither the judges nor the government have any will to change this. I am so so sorry that this is happening to you.
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Suzanne,
The outcome leaves me speechless. I feel for you and everyone else who is in a similar situation
I can only presume that the judges are being directed from a higher authority to delay logical judgements because of the damage it will do to Spain and seek any excuse. In your case the reason for buying !!! Although what that should have to do with it is beyond me.To digress and I apologise.
Goodstitch quote
I feel that anyone who turns round and says ‘this is not the UK, this is how it is in Spain’, need their arse kicking as much as the useless judges in some cases such as yours.Goodstitch ,I do admire your admiration for Law in UK being just in relation to that in Spain. Not the way it comes across to me.
UK Consumer Association has no teeth.
Trading Standards , police and the Enviromental Agency etc will eagerly prosecute bad practises and win to fill the coffers of the Government but none of the above will in anyway assist the consumer or injured party to reclaim their money or livelihoods.
Drunken motorists who kill …deminimus sentences.
I could go on and on.The ordinary man in the street in England always has to take private action and often the one with the best legal advice wins. However this costs so we have rely on luck as well.
The Law,sir ,said Mr Macawber, is an ass. Still true today everywhere unfortunately.In SE England ,at the moment, there have been reported two instances where static homes have been built on rural land. People have been living on both for some years. Now the councils are taking action towards eviction.
From what I understand all bought in good faith with appropriate documention and have been paying for all services.
Be interested to find out who is going to recompence these people should the worst happens.
My guess is…no-one will be held ultimately responsible for their stress and financial loss.We mere mortals are just pawns and even when we appear to hold all the aces one can never assume that right will prevail even with a long and costly fight.
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Suzanne,
The outcome leaves me speechless. I feel for you and everyone else who is in a similar situation
I can only presume that the judges are being directed from a higher authority to delay logical judgements because of the damage it will do to Spain and seek any excuse. In your case the reason for buying !!! Although what that should have to do with it is beyond me.To digress and I apologise.
Goodstitch quote
I feel that anyone who turns round and says ‘this is not the UK, this is how it is in Spain’, need their arse kicking as much as the useless judges in some cases such as yours.Goodstitch ,I do admire your admiration for Law in UK being just in relation to that in Spain. Not the way it comes across to me.
UK Consumer Association has no teeth.
Trading Standards , police and the Enviromental Agency etc will eagerly prosecute bad practises and win to fill the coffers of the Government but none of the above will in anyway assist the consumer or injured party to reclaim their money or livelihoods.
Drunken motorists who kill …deminimus sentences.
I could go on and on.The ordinary man in the street in England always has to take private action and often the one with the best legal advice wins. However this costs so we have rely on luck as well.
The Law,sir ,said Mr Macawber, is an ass. Still true today everywhere unfortunately.In SE England ,at the moment, there have been reported two instances where static homes have been built on rural land. People have been living on both for some years. Now the councils are taking action towards eviction.
From what I understand all bought in good faith with appropriate documention and have been paying for all services.
Be interested to find out who is going to recompence these people should the worst happens.
My guess is…no-one will be held ultimately responsible for their stress and financial loss.We mere mortals are just pawns and even when we appear to hold all the aces one can never assume that right will prevail even with a long and costly fight.
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Suzanne
I have to say I am gutted by your posting and even I cant even attempt to bring some sanity to the situation.
In no way is my own self interest a consideration in really getting behind these sort of disgraceful actions of the ones that should at least attempt to bring justice ie THE COURTS ❗ 👿 👿
The corrupt and the sharks are one thing however if Spain wants to get its act together then while they are protecting the corrupt and not the innocent then we and they have serious problems.
How f—-ing(flipping?) dare they say that its a problem for you as you may have bought it to make money.(what the Bleep! Bleep! got to do with them. 👿
You say you were spitting blood if they say that to me it wont be my blood that I will be spitting.(what are Spanish cells like?)
If this particular statement stands up in court then the fire sale that Charlie mention would really be on the cards.While I am always one to try to have a balanced view and try to put forward that overall the majority are happy this is taking the Pi— 👿Dont let the Bleaps gets you down gal
Regards
Jim🙂
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Suzanne
I have to say I am gutted by your posting and even I cant even attempt to bring some sanity to the situation.
In no way is my own self interest a consideration in really getting behind these sort of disgraceful actions of the ones that should at least attempt to bring justice ie THE COURTS ❗ 👿 👿
The corrupt and the sharks are one thing however if Spain wants to get its act together then while they are protecting the corrupt and not the innocent then we and they have serious problems.
How f—-ing(flipping?) dare they say that its a problem for you as you may have bought it to make money.(what the Bleep! Bleep! got to do with them. 👿
You say you were spitting blood if they say that to me it wont be my blood that I will be spitting.(what are Spanish cells like?)
If this particular statement stands up in court then the fire sale that Charlie mention would really be on the cards.While I am always one to try to have a balanced view and try to put forward that overall the majority are happy this is taking the Pi— 👿Dont let the Bleaps gets you down gal
Regards
Jim🙂
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Melosine
Don’t think i’m saying that UK law is always right, far from it, but please don’t try and tell me that there is any comparison with buying property in Spain and the UK. Through buying commercial and residential property in UK, i have always found that with a bit of homework and prudence you can often trust the people you are dealing with, the sellers, the lawyers, even the agents seem to have more of a grip on reality, and at least seem to know the difference between right and wrong in most cases. Same old story in Spain, because the low-life have got away with it for so long and at all levels up to judges, (going by suzannes case and many others), i think many are very reluctant to change the often bent system. As you say in other matters the law is an ass everywhere and i take by that, you mean Spain as well.
Bring on the bursting bubble and elections, could it be any more wrong at present?,……… ask suzanne, or the many in her situation
Hopefully the honest developers, lawyers, agents in Spain, of which i realise there are many, and some of them that post on here, will rise to the surface, as the bad eggs are thrown out, and i will be glad to shout positive about them!
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Melosine
Don’t think i’m saying that UK law is always right, far from it, but please don’t try and tell me that there is any comparison with buying property in Spain and the UK. Through buying commercial and residential property in UK, i have always found that with a bit of homework and prudence you can often trust the people you are dealing with, the sellers, the lawyers, even the agents seem to have more of a grip on reality, and at least seem to know the difference between right and wrong in most cases. Same old story in Spain, because the low-life have got away with it for so long and at all levels up to judges, (going by suzannes case and many others), i think many are very reluctant to change the often bent system. As you say in other matters the law is an ass everywhere and i take by that, you mean Spain as well.
Bring on the bursting bubble and elections, could it be any more wrong at present?,……… ask suzanne, or the many in her situation
Hopefully the honest developers, lawyers, agents in Spain, of which i realise there are many, and some of them that post on here, will rise to the surface, as the bad eggs are thrown out, and i will be glad to shout positive about them!
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Another person known to me & Charlie has recently had his case put on hold. The banks lawyers (he has a BG) are saying that his apartment has an LFO under the administrative silence rule . 😯 😕 🙄 His lawyer has also said to him that if he can prove he is/was a consumer rather than investor, it will strengthen his case! 😯
It appears the Courts/judges are using this “but you are an investor” stance to avoid paying back money regardless of the fact that all this aside the developers are in breach of contract on other issues.! 😈 😈
These same developers were more than happy to take “investors” money when they were selling in the first place. My way of thinking is “what the hell has that got to do with anything” (if they were investors or not!).
This is not justice! -
Another person known to me & Charlie has recently had his case put on hold. The banks lawyers (he has a BG) are saying that his apartment has an LFO under the administrative silence rule . 😯 😕 🙄 His lawyer has also said to him that if he can prove he is/was a consumer rather than investor, it will strengthen his case! 😯
It appears the Courts/judges are using this “but you are an investor” stance to avoid paying back money regardless of the fact that all this aside the developers are in breach of contract on other issues.! 😈 😈
These same developers were more than happy to take “investors” money when they were selling in the first place. My way of thinking is “what the hell has that got to do with anything” (if they were investors or not!).
This is not justice! -
Goodstitch,
Yes by everywhere I mean Spain as well and I am certainly not suggesting that one can make a comparison between buying properties in the countries. Totally different ball games.
I mentioned the 2 property problems in UK because these folk will have a similar fight on their hands .One which they will have to personally persue through the courts and prove they are the victim.Fortunately my experience came good but even I wouldn’t be shouting positive about anyone I have dealt with because Spain is a law until itself and I can’t see this ever changing.
The best one can do is warn future buyers and highlight the problems. It is then up to each individual to make the final decision.If that is being positive then I am guilty as charged. 😉
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Goodstitch,
Yes by everywhere I mean Spain as well and I am certainly not suggesting that one can make a comparison between buying properties in the countries. Totally different ball games.
I mentioned the 2 property problems in UK because these folk will have a similar fight on their hands .One which they will have to personally persue through the courts and prove they are the victim.Fortunately my experience came good but even I wouldn’t be shouting positive about anyone I have dealt with because Spain is a law until itself and I can’t see this ever changing.
The best one can do is warn future buyers and highlight the problems. It is then up to each individual to make the final decision.If that is being positive then I am guilty as charged. 😉
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Suzanne , I think you should insist on being present at the next Court hearing. From what you have said and what I hear, it seems Lawyers in Spain don’t have the right ❓ to argue your case. They just seem to present it on the day and the judge decides whatever.
Does a Judge never say sometimes ” There is no right of appeal in this particular case” ❓
In ours and Charlies case the bank/developer appealed…even though our apartment was never built ❗ 😕 Where was the logic in that ❓ It should have been cut & dry. No apartment …money back. We had to endure further months of worry and expense. 👿 -
Suzanne , I think you should insist on being present at the next Court hearing. From what you have said and what I hear, it seems Lawyers in Spain don’t have the right ❓ to argue your case. They just seem to present it on the day and the judge decides whatever.
Does a Judge never say sometimes ” There is no right of appeal in this particular case” ❓
In ours and Charlies case the bank/developer appealed…even though our apartment was never built ❗ 😕 Where was the logic in that ❓ It should have been cut & dry. No apartment …money back. We had to endure further months of worry and expense. 👿 -
@Claire wrote:
Suzanne , I think you should insist on being present at the next Court hearing……:
I have to be there – I am being called for questioning ❗
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How dare they 😈I would have been there on Monday (although I was not called) but mum (82) started radiotherapy Monday too so I have to be here for her. Probably a good job I wasn’t there – I’d probably be rotting in a Spanish cell now for Contempt of Court. It really is all too much.
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@Claire wrote:
Suzanne , I think you should insist on being present at the next Court hearing……:
I have to be there – I am being called for questioning ❗
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How dare they 😈I would have been there on Monday (although I was not called) but mum (82) started radiotherapy Monday too so I have to be here for her. Probably a good job I wasn’t there – I’d probably be rotting in a Spanish cell now for Contempt of Court. It really is all too much.
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Hi Suzanne – what a gutting experience. Its brave of you to share it with us and it will show others what actually goes on in this country.
Hopefully with sales and prices dropping fast the goverment will get its act together and work out a better system.
Good luck with it and remember we are all behind you.
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Hi Suzanne – what a gutting experience. Its brave of you to share it with us and it will show others what actually goes on in this country.
Hopefully with sales and prices dropping fast the goverment will get its act together and work out a better system.
Good luck with it and remember we are all behind you.
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Hello Inez – I’ve missed you on the forum recently.
I have hesitated in posting my ‘news’ as our opposers obviously scan these forums daily. But I believe that stating the facts & telling it as it is can only be a good thing here. The people most of us are up against seem, to me, to be completely amoral & find honesty laughable.
But, as my grandma used to say, “the bigger they are, the harder they fall”. 8) I’m off to the hairdressers now, while I’ve still got some hair to look after ❗
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Hello Inez – I’ve missed you on the forum recently.
I have hesitated in posting my ‘news’ as our opposers obviously scan these forums daily. But I believe that stating the facts & telling it as it is can only be a good thing here. The people most of us are up against seem, to me, to be completely amoral & find honesty laughable.
But, as my grandma used to say, “the bigger they are, the harder they fall”. 8) I’m off to the hairdressers now, while I’ve still got some hair to look after ❗
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