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Interesting one from the BBC this morning, the number of UK mortage approvals is now at the lowest ever level since records began. With so much bad news surrounding the property slump in Europe and North America it is clear that people are just stopping buying ….no matter how ‘fair’ the price. And therein lies the problem, no matter how ‘fair’ the asking price, the buyer is now convinced that he has to sit and wait another year or two for a better deal. Same thing is already happening in spain, if you plan to sell your property then I wish you the best of luck, yuou will need it.
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“With so much bad news surrounding the property slump in Europe and North America it is clear that people are just stopping buying ….no matter how ‘fair’ the price. And therein lies the problem, no matter how ‘fair’ the asking price, the buyer is now convinced that he has to sit and wait another year or two for a better deal. Same thing is already happening in spain, if you plan to sell your property then I wish you the best of luck, yuou will need it.”
Same thing is happening everywhere now.
The problem is that the property slump might be negligible in comparison with the deep recession and high inflation which might be with us for sometime.
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marcoloco10 wrote:Anopther plus side of this credit cruch – us BTL landlords can push up our rents! 8)
Yeah, right. The tenants will just grow money in the trees around the house.
Wake up, people will have problems filling up their food carts and cars and nobody will be willing to pay more for overpriced rentals.
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Ralita – not necessarily.
My portfolio is based in London, Edinburgh and St Andrews. All properties are centrally located, period properties, and most tenants are medium to long term.
I don’t do new builds (either in the UK or Spain) – could never understand the attraction. New today, old and shoddy in five years – no thanks.
My rents have been static for approx. 3 yrs. I’ve been content with this as capital values keep on rising. Now however, i’ve increased rents by 10% in every property (bar 1 – which i increased 5%).
The tenants understand that times are changing – inflation is pushing prices up: rents included.
What suffers is the cigarettes, alcohol, meals out, new tvs, new cars holidays etc.
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@ralita wrote:
If they are willing and able to pay, then it is good for you.
My opinion from that one posting of marcoloco10 is that he knows the market (look at the geographical location of his properties) and where he can achiev the rental income he wishes for.
Guaranteed, done his homework, an investor, not a flipper of off plan properties with a view to trying to make a quick buck. -
Ralita – you’ll find that during the uplift in the property market cycle most people (butchers, bakers and candle stick makers) can make money from property.
Its only when the market turns sour that some amatures suffer whilst a larger proportion of professional landlords continue to make money. Why? Well i think that its all about the buying strategy and the locations targeted for your investments.
Obviously everyone makes mistakes amatures and professionals alike- but investment (in any commodity) should not be taken lightly. Often it is those who conduct proprer research and due diligence are the ones still standing at the end of it.
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Ronnie – i agree.
The downturn still has some way to go.
But the areas affected most are those with demand / supply issues. Central Leeds springs to mind! Too many new build flats all competing for the same student market. Not good.
Chose your locations and products carefully and you’ll never stuggle for tentants or competitve rents. Locations like London and Edinburgh experience demand from many sectors. Granted, St Andrews is a location more suited to students but new build flats in historic St Andrews are as common as sober students. Not many of them about!
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@maximus wrote:
The number of Buy-to-let Landlords defaulting on their mortgages has hit a new high, and is apparently going to get worse.
No doubt mainly the amateur BTL landlords who thought they could jump a free ride on the gravy train and have tenants buy them a property with rent paying the mortgage. The same kind of amateurs that thought that buying to “flip” in Spain was a quick easy buck. Either way, no pre-thought as to what would happen if thing did not follow their theory and no funds to get them through!
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I am presently in London and have just attended a BTL seminar with some friends.
There is an ironic comparison to be drawn between dodgy Spanish Agents and BTL seminars here in the UK.
“Now is the time to buy”, was the message from the Property-Guru who spoke this evening, but it´s only guaranteed if you buy his 4 set CD pack with unique investment tools to do the job at 399,00 pounds including free seats to the next brainwash ceremony, sorry seminar. He he, great fun, my friends are totally sold on the idea 😕
When will people see sense?? My friends, university lecturer, wife new mum but was a media analyst are obsessesed with property values.
Time to get out the whisky and talk some sense into them before the new baby inherits a 200 year Japanese mortgage.
Back in Spain on Wednesday, I can´t wait. 😀
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“Ralita – you’ll find that during the uplift in the property market cycle most people (butchers, bakers and candle stick makers) can make money from property.
Its only when the market turns sour that some amatures suffer whilst a larger proportion of professional landlords continue to make money. Why? Well i think that its all about the buying strategy and the locations targeted for your investments. “I perfectly agree with this. It is just that I think this time might be different and all the money sources might be affected, including rents.
I wonder how the landlord business did during the 1929-1933 depression…
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“Now is the time to buy”, was the message from the Property-Guru who spoke this evening, but it´s only guaranteed if you buy his 4 set CD pack with unique investment tools to do the job at 399,00 pounds including free seats to the next brainwash ceremony, sorry seminar. He he, great fun, my friends are totally sold on the idea
There is no ‘right’ to owning a property and no easy way towards ownership either. On Panorama last night a 24 year old Estate Agent had bought 2 buy-to-let flats. This gave him a profit of £100 / month after costs providing he had full tenancies. He does not and the properties are now falling in value. In other words, at 24 he is bankrupt.
But there is a simple rule to follow if you want to own a house. Decide what you want to do in life to earn a living, keep practicing until you are very very good at it and then work very very hard.
If anyone wants to follow this ‘Guru’ advice please buy my ‘pack’ at £3.99 (Paypal accepted) which explains how to work hard! 8)
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If only it were that easy! Plenty of people are good at there jobs, and work hard. It doesn’t mean they will be able to buy a house.
A lot depends on the individuals skill set, the area of the country they live in, the prevailing market (and to a lesser extent political) conditions, family commitments, the economic cycle…
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Ralita – Property markets work in cycles. Even as far back as the recesion of the late 1930. Only this week i enjoyed reading the Estates Gazette’s 150 yrs (1858 – 2008) special anniversary supplement.
Property investment is not a new fad. Though its certainly gone mainstream in recent years. The underlying principles of property and investment remain the same weather commercial or residential.
So to answer your question – BTL was not around in the form that we know it in the late 1920s. However this recession was quickly *(decade or so) later followed by the end of the war then the boom. Those holding property assets at the time of the boom benefit, like every other boom.
El anciano – spot on! And often a little bit of luck goes along way. We can try and read the market but at the end of the day no one has a cyrstal ball.
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Hi Marcoloco10,
Regarding rentals – here in Ireland the rental yields are dropping not increasing – there has been a significant drop in rental asking prices in last quarter – your properties must be gilt edged with diamonds the fact that you’ve actually increased your rental prices and that you are actually boasting about it. Glad your not my landlord!
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@marcoloco10 wrote:
Only this week i enjoyed reading the Estates Gazette’s 150 yrs (1858 – 2008) special anniversary supplement.
Made fascinating reading.
@marcoloco10 wrote:
Property investment is not a new fad.
The main difference being that in past times, it was people who could afford it invested in property. Now it is often anyone who can scrape togethr a loan and not be aware of the pitfalls.
@marcoloco10 wrote:
We can try and read the market but at the end of the day no one has a cyrstal ball.
Yeeeees, someone with common sense.
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We fortunately sold our house in Mid-Devon last May, one from ten properties, now there are 5 for sale including the one we sold. Two have been on the market since last June and have been constantly reduced until they are now offered 20% lower than originally but still no interest.
Whilst this may only be regional, it is indicative of several areas in the UK and looks like spreading, some economists say the UK could suffer 40% falls over the next 3 years. The Nationwide’s housing index showed a 2.5% fall last month alone, if that continued then it equates to 30% in one year alone.
It doesn’t bode well for the Spanish property market and other Eurozone markets, as Brits. often remortgage their UK homes to buy abroad.
It’s a reality check to show that property does not always go up, too many Buy to Let investors have created a somewhat false market methinks! 😥
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to the BTL people here i have a small case study/question if you don’t mind.
tell me what you think
property for sale 70.000€
10% cost 7.000€
full reform 10.000€ (for a high figure)
total 87.000€mortgage of 90.000€, monthly repayment 460€
current very high demand for this type of property 525€ a month long term.would you say its a good BTL or not?
Also similar neighbouring property, last reform in 1995 sold for 130.000€ 3 months ago. -
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@ralita wrote:
“total 87.000€
mortgage of 90.000€, monthly repayment 460€
current very high demand for this type of property 525€ a month long term.”This is 7.2% return. It is not so bad.
Question is: who pays the community fees? The owner or the tenant?
community landlord. water & electric tenant.
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“260€ a year
bi + basura say 150€”OK, then it would be 6.77% return. This is better than any ISA.
BUt this only if the rental demand remains the same and if the area does not become ghetto.
Also, if prices declined from 130K to 87K in 3 months, who is to say that they won’t decline further in the next 6 months? -
@ralita wrote:
“260€ a year
bi + basura say 150€”OK, then it would be 6.77% return. This is better than any ISA.
BUt this only if the rental demand remains the same and if the area does not become ghetto.
Also, if prices declined from 130K to 87K in 3 months, who is to say that they won’t decline further in the next 6 months?unreformed she was going to sell at 100.000€. due to apparent tax implications she clears the same selling at 70.000€ as she does at 100.000€. Going by my calculations for the property price to be accurate is should sell at 107.000€.
But at this price mortgage is bigger than the rent.
Location is good. 5 minutes walk to centre. near bus/train lines. lots of shops/restaurants. popular rental area, and as a plus 2 minutes walk to the beach (timed it) -
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I find this quite interesting. Potentially this could be a good investment in the long run.
What would worry me would be that you are taking on quite a major risk, and the return needs to justify this. I don’t think that the projected return does justify the risk, unless you really are confident that you can get 100% rental occupancy, with tenants that actually pay AND you think the purchase price is near the bottom these properties will hit in this present downturn. Oh, and just to be even more negative, that interest rates don’t dramatcally increase.
I’m not trying to be negative just to “talk down the market” nor to upset people. I just think that it is really hard to make a strong investment in property at the moment (even at discounted prices).
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Angela – chill, please.
Now who’s boasting about anything? Certainly not me.
I’ve not enjoyed a rental increase in 3 yrs – yields have been low. Very low.
I’ve simply stated that the current credit crunch has a silver lining for some landlords. All is not doom and gloom in the marketplace… as many people would hope for / have you believe.
The present problem with the market is the lack of funding / finance not a lack of demand for property (from buyers or renters). For those not intending on selling (like me, and probaby many others) the current climate is positive as opportunities to acquire more stock present themselves. Remember its not all about short term gains!
Making money from property investment requires that you secure high values at times of low yields and in times of low value, high yields.
What you are referring to in Ireland is low value = low yield. This is not an enviable position to be in – but rest asure not everyone finds themself in this postion. But hey – that type of story will not help sell newspapers / promote tv programmes.
So, there’s positives in every marketplace… you just gotta know how and where to find them!
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Katy – i’ve not considered the exmaple posted earlier in any detail but often herd mentality prevents people from buying when the chips are down.
Obviously, investors must be aware of the bull trap – rushing in too quickly and ending up with a dud.
But often people only buy when everyone around them is buying – it gives them confidence. And guess what – they all sell when everyone else is selling.
This may explain why its still available?
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marcoloco 10
The present problem with the market is the lack of funding / finance not a lack of demand for property (from buyers or renters). For those not intending on selling (like me, and probaby many others) the current climate is positive as opportunities to acquire more stock present themselves. Remember its not all about short term gains!
Yes, Spot on. And when the money returns, which it will do, the pent-up demand might have quite a surprising outcome with prices bouncing back. The big question is ‘How long is this crunch going to last?’
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@katy wrote:
If its sooo good an investment, why hasn’t it gone? Still plenty of ex-pats here who are flush with cash for the right investment.
its an inheritence on an english will and the inheritors is a stepchild. legal work & taxes in spain.
I’m suprised it has’nt sold, an agency had it and did sod all. At that price a cordobes would have snapped it up in a second. But they had it with an english agency…
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@El anciano wrote:
What would worry me would be that you are taking on quite a major risk, and the return needs to justify this. I don’t think that the projected return does justify the risk, unless you really are confident that you can get 100% rental occupancy, with tenants that actually pay
any half decent apartment nearish the beach in the area will easily rent at that. They rent with little advertising.
@El anciano wrote:
AND you think the purchase price is near the bottom these properties will hit in this present downturn. Oh, and just to be even more negative, that interest rates don’t dramatcally increase.
I don’t think the prices in the area will reach this low. Or at least not selling prices. Many are main residents or have long term tenants covering the rent. Of course I could be wrong, but even if things get worse most people won’t budge on prices for at least several months. Many are now only dropping prices to what they should have been a year ago.
If rates beat the previous record then it won’t be easy. Currently most types of buyers for these sorts of properties are older spanish who want to have a home by the beach. Based on experience they are cash buyers who are looking at 1,2,3 line beach up to 130/140 000 euros.@El anciano wrote:
I’m not trying to be negative just to “talk down the market” nor to upset people. I just think that it is really hard to make a strong investment in property at the moment (even at discounted prices).
Fair point. All i know is that its a good property. Well laid out. Everything else near by is either a 30m2 studio convert into a 1 bed, at 150.000 or a standard 1/2 bedroom apartment at around the 200 mark. A few of the buildings don’t have lifts. Whereas this apartment is old but well maintained.
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@El anciano wrote:
Well, it certainly sounds like you have done your research. At the end of the day it is always a risk, so long as you understand the risks & are happy that it is worthwhile, then go for it.
I do beleive it would be worth buying just to do up and then sell. Even without waiting for the market to ‘improve’ it should sell easily and quickly at a competitive price.
EDIT: just because i’m an amateur investor, does not mean I have to be amateurish… 😉
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@Fuengi wrote:
EDIT: just because i’m an amateur investor, does not mean I have to be amateurish… 😉
Be you an “amateur” or professional investor, it is certainly unwise to make a decision based on what is read on a forum, bearing in mind that many contributors on such a froum, have lost much financially.
If it is iffy and you need to borrow. Don’t. -
@mg wrote:
@Fuengi wrote:
EDIT: just because i’m an amateur investor, does not mean I have to be amateurish… 😉
Be you an “amateur” or professional investor, it is certainly unwise to make a decision based on what is read on a forum, bearing in mind that many contributors on such a froum, have lost much financially.
If it is iffy and you need to borrow. Don’t.fair point. I don’t beleive its iffy, but i would need to borrow. So the risk is there. But this is a bargain, and i don’t think there will be many on the market like it.
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I used to rent out a property long term and it was a complete nightmare most of the time. The coast gets more than it’s share of dodgy tenants, they know the system, pay a couple of months and then stop and it takes ages to get them out (plus the cost).
Could say I was unlucky but it is happening to lots of other people I know who rent out. One friend let out an apartment, not only did the tenant stop paying the rent but they stole most of the furniture and sub-let the place.
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@Fuengi wrote:
But this is a bargain, and i don’t think there will be many on the market like it.
So how can it possibly be a risk and a bargain?
If it is a risk, it could be a complete burden or disaster.
If it is a bargain, it means you will be guaranteed to make money out of it.
So which is it?
Not that nuch of a bargain if you have to borrow to purchase and then live in hope.
OK, you say “i don’t think there will be many on the market like it”. Perhaps no, perhaps in 12 months they may be cheaper, the way the market is going. -
@mg wrote:
@Fuengi wrote:
But this is a bargain, and i don’t think there will be many on the market like it.
So how can it possibly be a risk and a bargain?
If it is a risk, it could be a complete burden or disaster.
If it is a bargain, it means you will be guaranteed to make money out of it.
So which is it?
Not that nuch of a bargain if you have to borrow to purchase and then live in hope.
OK, you say “i don’t think there will be many on the market like it”. Perhaps no, perhaps in 12 months they may be cheaper, the way the market is going.i think its a bargain at 70.000€.
its a risk because i have to borrow.
There is the guarantee of doing it up and selling straight away.
To sell it i would’nt have to live in hope as i can still sell it cheaper than the competition.
For the market to reach that point, where properties have to be at that price to sell, then everyone who has bought in the last 15 years is in trouble as that was the price of these apartments then. Even if i panicked and sold at 110.000€ there is nothing on the market at that price in the area. And even a young couple on minimum wage would be able to afford the mortgage at that price. and i’d still make a profit. -
at the moment people who are waiting for the prices to simply drop are living in hope in my opinion. Many will simply expect people to keep on dropping till everything is dirt cheap, and then you can pick and choose. This might happen to properties that are located in urbanisations in the middle of no-where, but even then many of the banks are offering for a nominal fee a 1 year property insurance. So if for any reason you cannot pay the mortgage, the bank freezes the mortgage.
Also these apartments were not bought and sold repeatedly over the last 8 years at inflated price.
As we all say and know, location & quality sells. Its just a shame more did’nt think that way when they bought ‘investments’ in the past. -
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@Fuengi wrote:
i think its a bargain at 70.000€.
So if those are your thoughts, why not just buy it?
@Fuengi wrote:
its a risk because i have to borrow.
But at such a bargain (your thoughts) that is not a problem, seeing as you can guarante to rent or sell and make so much from it!
@Fuengi wrote:
then everyone who has bought in the last 15 years is in trouble as that was the price of these apartments then.
So what is news. Many are.
@Fuengi wrote:
Even if i panicked and sold at 110.000€ there is nothing on the market at that price in the area.
So it is such a wonderful and guaranteed return, just go and buy it.
@Fuengi wrote:
And even a young couple on minimum wage would be able to afford the mortgage at that price. and i’d still make a profit.
So BUY IT, BUY IT please let us all know how we can buy such investments with a guaranteed profit (were you a sales rep in a previous life).
What is that small?
Aaaaaaah, I smell burnt fingers or a disaster here maybe.
Doesn’t seem any reason why there should be any losses in this investment. 🙄 -
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@mg wrote:
So if those are your thoughts, why not just buy it?
I will. If the legal/inheritance side can get sorted.
@mg wrote:
But at such a bargain (your thoughts) that is not a problem, seeing as you can guarante to rent or sell and make so much from it!
the rent will cover the costs, if it rents., and leave a small amount left over.
@mg wrote:
So what is news. Many are.
No not at the moment. properties at the 2002 prices are selling. unless they paid way over the top then.
@mg wrote:
So it is such a wonderful and guaranteed return, just go and buy it.
I will. Just interested in some feedback as there appears to be a few people on this forum who claim to alot of experience in BTLs
@mg wrote:
So BUY IT, BUY IT please let us all know how we can buy such investments with a guaranteed profit (were you a sales rep in a previous life).
Such investments are rare. the only reason this is possible, is due to the tax implications i mentioned in a earlier post. Total fluke.
@mg wrote:
Aaaaaaah, I smell burnt fingers or a disaster here maybe.
Doesn’t seem any reason why there should be any losses in this investment. 🙄thanks for the support. If you have got the experience, please tell me why you see a disaster. Is it because i have to borrow money? you beleive i’m lying about the investment? Do the figures not stack up? what?
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@Fuengi wrote:
to the BTL people here i have a small case study/question if you don’t mind.
tell me what you think
property for sale 70.000€
10% cost 7.000€
full reform 10.000€ (for a high figure)
total 87.000€mortgage of 90.000€, monthly repayment 460€
current very high demand for this type of property 525€ a month long term.would you say its a good BTL or not?
Also similar neighbouring property, last reform in 1995 sold for 130.000€ 3 months ago.After adding the mortgage set up costs the total purchase price will be 90,000€
If a similar property sold for 130,000€ 3 months ago, then already the next one for sale could only reach a market value of 120,000€ as the state of decline is inreasing day by day.
If you took on the project and had to panic sell at 110,000€ that would put the price at only 8% below market value. Most of todays savvy buyers are looking for a minimum of 30% below market value. That would mean you got offers of 85,000€ which is a 5,000€ loss after doing all the renovating and going through the purchase and mortgage set up trouble.
It is usually the worst case scenario that actually happens to the unseasoned speculator.
I would not see this as a bargain Fuengi. I don´t think they have truely arrived yet.
Just my humble opinion Fuengi – no offence meant.
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And mg i was only asking for advice. If you have no useful advise, there is no need to answer my posts. I’m not a fool, if interest rates went up, the mortgage would be higher than the rent. Which would be a problem, especially if it went up by alot. There is alot that can go wrong, any anyone with any sense knows that. And as you well know there are no guarantees in life. But this is’nt some overpriced property in elviria or calahonda being sold on the idea that prices can only go up.
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@Peter Good wrote:
After adding the mortgage set up costs the total purchase price will be 90,000€
If a similar property sold for 130,000€ 3 months ago, then already the next one for sale could only reach a market value of 120,000€ as the state of decline is inreasing day by day.
If you took on the project and had to panic sell at 110,000€ that would put the price at only 8% below market value. Most of todays savvy buyers are looking for a minimum of 30% below market value. That would mean you got offers of 85,000€ which is a 5,000€ loss after doing all the renovating and going through the purchase and mortgage set up trouble.
It is usually the worst case scenario that actually happens to the unseasoned speculator.
I would not see this as a bargain Fuengi. I don´t think they have truely arrived yet.
Just my humble opinion Fuengi – no offence meant.
peter no offense taken. this is the sort of answer i want. its too easy to see things from one side only.
the last one i know of sold for 142.000€.
again about 30% reductions. the only people i’ve seen who accept this are people that seem to have bought off-plan, buy’em by the dozen, box apartments.
I’m trying to not let pride blind me. My last investment was my previous property. Even then the average time to sell you proeprty was 18 months. I got a deposit in 2 weeks and completed 3 weeks after that. Because i priced to sell. Whereas others in the block, were happy to wait until someone would pay the figure they wanted. Year later, they are still on the market… -
@Fuengi wrote:
if interest rates went up, the mortgage would be higher than the rent. Which would be a problem, especially if it went up by alot.
So how come it is such a bargain?
It is you that mentioned “guarantees” and being able to off-load quickly if needs be.
“Such investments are rare. ” And you think that this is one such?
” If you have got the experience, please tell me why you see a disaster. Is it because i have to borrow money?” You have just answered your own question.
There is little room for error.“If you have no useful advise, there is no need to answer my posts.” Yes, the truth often hurts.
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@mg wrote:
So how come it is such a bargain?
because it would be a problem for me. If i was a cash buyer i would have grabed straight away (legal stuff aside).
because its substantially cheaper than anything else on the market. And if i was to sell it for her a buyer could be found at very short notice.@mg wrote:
It is you that mentioned “guarantees” and being able to off-load quickly if needs be.
I don’t beleive i mentioned guarantees, although i’d have to check. But yes i’m quite confident that it could be off-loaded quickly. Most cordobes, for example, are looking for this exact property up to 130/140€
@mg wrote:
And you think that this is one such?
i beleive so. although of course i could be wrong. but nothing risked nothing gained.
@mg wrote:
” If you have got the experience, please tell me why you see a disaster. Is it because i have to borrow money?” You have just answered your own question.
There is little room for error.fair point. I can i could go for an interest only mortgage for a year or 2. which would lower my costs a bit.
@mg wrote:
Yes, the truth often hurts.
no, truth is helpful. some of your previous comments were asinine.
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@Fuengi wrote:
asinine.
I think not, although as you believe in the investment and if you can see that there may be a downside, you seem prepared to try an gloss over whatever downsides people bring to your attention, or infact, the downside you identify yourself and try and “gloss over” by the statement “which would lower my costs a bit.”
So what happened abouth the good investment when now you are considering how to reduce outgoings?
Therefore, surely the above term is more appropriate to you judgements if you haven’t yet secured the premises, as even in the current financial market, any bank will support a win win situation.
I assume that you have already discussed and secured funding?
Funders are the people that matter and not people like myself who make comments on a forum. -
@mg wrote:
@Fuengi wrote:
asinine.
I think not, although as you believe in the investment and if you can see that there may be a downside, you seem prepared to try an gloss over whatever downsides people bring to your attention, or infact, the downside you identify yourself and try and “gloss over” by the statement “which would lower my costs a bit.”
So what happened abouth the good investment when now you are considering how to reduce outgoings?
Therefore, surely the above term is more appropriate to you judgements if you haven’t yet secured the premises, as even in the current financial market, any bank will support a win win situation.
I assume that you have already discussed and secured funding?
Funders are the people that matter and not people like myself who make comments on a forum..
gloss over? I don’t beleive i have. the gloss over as you say, about lowering my costs, is a potential option i beleive.
Regardless of how good the investment is, i’d assume that reducing outgoings would always be a plus..
The premises cannot be secured until she has arranged her legal side. which should take a few more weeks/months.
Yes financing has been secured.
Please do comment, you’ve made some good points that have given me food for thought. That is waht i want. I don’t want comments about burning fingers, unless worded like peter goods reply, which at least clearly states how i could be burnt. -
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@Fuengi wrote:
unless worded like peter goods reply, which at least clearly states how i could be burnt.
Sorry, if you want sweet talk and hand holding, then I am not the one.
Business is not like that.
So you now want comments and explanations.
Try paying Lawyers and Financial Advisors. -
I don’t understand that at this price why it hasn’t been snapped up. I would think it is in quite a run down area (Fuengirola prices aren’t usually as low). In that sort of area are usually lots of immigrants and low income Spanish, surely they would be aware of the sale price etc.
As for investment opportunities in Spain..they don’t exist just now. If you want to buy for a lifestyle (God I hate that word) fine, anthing else forget it.
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@Fuengi wrote:
or tell me what you would classify as a good investment in the south of spain? in regards to rent/cost/mortgage/etc..
I am honestly interested.
Now that could be considered asinine.
How long is a piece of string.
What is a good investment?
What are you looking for – how is it funded – what yields are required – what is the covenant – what cap., growth is wanted, etc., etc.,?
Each investment will be viewed differently by different investors.
If self funded and good covenant, 4.5% would be considered by many. There again, some would want 10%.
What funds are available to support repayments, if externally funded, if the premises is empty?
What funds are available in the event of “they know the system, pay a couple of months and then stop and it takes ages to get them out (plus the cost).”?
How would those losses be recovered?
Say trashed and 2000€ spend, do you think you could put the rent up 2000€ or suffer the losses yourself? -
@mg wrote:
Sorry, if you want sweet talk and hand holding, then I am not the one. Business is not like that. So you now want comments and explanations. Try paying Lawyers and Financial Advisors.
hell be as rude as you like. But yes I’ve come onto this site for insight into an area of spanish property in not familiar with. If you don’t want to share information that you feel should be earned or paid for I understand, just don’t reply to my posts on this thread.
@katy wrote:
I don’t understand that at this price why it hasn’t been snapped up. I would think it is in quite a run down area (Fuengirola prices aren’t usually as low). In that sort of area are usually lots of immigrants and low income Spanish, surely they would be aware of the sale price etc.
can’t be snapped up until the inheritance is sorted out. As i’ve said previously a few weeks/months. The area is not run down, it not a new area, but then its central and a few streets back from the sea.
@mg wrote:
What are you looking for – how is it funded – what yields are required – what is the covenant – what cap., growth is wanted, etc., etc.,?
Each investment will be viewed differently by different investors.
If self funded and good covenant, 4.5% would be considered by many. There again, some would want 10%.
What funds are available to support repayments, if externally funded, if the premises is empty?
What funds are available in the event of “they know the system, pay a couple of months and then stop and it takes ages to get them out (plus the cost).”?
How would those losses be recovered?
Say trashed and 2000€ spend, do you think you could put the rent up 2000€ or suffer the losses yourself?for the rent i’d be covered for ten months.
There are some very good, well priced warranties now. Also if you stay out of the ‘tourist’ rentals, more is demanded by the landlord. tenants have to have rental warranties with banks, 2 month deposits, etc…
of course they could trash the entire apartment, i would rent it unfurnished, but they could still destroy the kitchen, walls, etc… I’d only keep the deposit. Also the property insurance which is included in the mortgage will cover vandalism & such. -
and just to bring this thread back on track
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7433303.stm
@article wrote:
Professor Wilcox warned that the current mortgage shortage would still be an obstacle for many would-be buyers.
“While house prices are falling, access to the property market is being increasingly limited by the costs and more restrictive terms of a substantially reduced supply of mortgage finance,” he said.
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@Fuengi wrote:
There are some very good, well priced warranties now.
OK, so another outgoing.
@Fuengi wrote:
2 month deposits, etc…
Suppose that may pay for redecoration and a couple of panes of glass, plus the loss of rental income whilst work carried out.
@Fuengi wrote:
Also the property insurance which is included in the mortgage will cover vandalism & such.
And the premium will not be loaded the next year?
And the year after another claim, a refusal of cover?
“hell be as rude as you like.” It is called straight talking and realistic?
Now we want to bring Prof., Wilcox into the equation.
You certainly not confident about your thoughts are you? -
no i think the article relates to the opening post. about mortgages in the UK.
about the rest of your reply, as i said, tenants have to have bank warranties. And I’ll have to vet the tenants. If i didn’t need the mortgage things would be different, but as i said before even though the purchase is a bargain for me its a risk.
I think its worth it, but if i was 100% sure i’d not bring it up here. -
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@katy wrote:
I think asking for deposits such as 2 months is forbidden under spanish law and believe me prospective tenants know it word for word.
well its surprisingly common
but i’ll double check to be sure
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@Fuengi wrote:
@katy wrote:
I think asking for deposits such as 2 months is forbidden under spanish law and believe me prospective tenants know it word for word.
well its surprisingly common
but i’ll double check to be sure
Fuengi, I can’t comment on what Katy has said, as I don’t have knowledge of it, but let us assume it is correct. Shouldn’t such things be familiar to you if you have already sorted funding and are looking to proceed with it?
Even if what Katy says is incorrect, you should have the knowledge to have come back immediately and correct her statement.
Are you ready for this, have you done your homework? -
Fuengi
although mg has a unique way of putting things over, I basically share his view that you sound as if you may not be fully prepared for this venture. With no disrespect to yourself I believe that investment in a falling market and in uncertain times, particulary when capital needs to be raised through banks, is best left to the experts. You may strike lucky but on the other hand ……..
Richard
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@Fuengi wrote:
At that price a cordobes would have snapped it up in a second.
Who/what is a ‘cordobes’ please?
Guessing it’s either someone who hails from Cordoba, or a colloquial term for an investor. I’ve checked dictionary/internet but nothing obvious.
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http://www.hbosplc.com/economy/includes/05…ndexMay2008.doc
Note the reduction of 49% year on year in new loans
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Sorry link not working try this one from BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7430815.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7437132.stm
🙁 House prices falling at the fastest rate since records began and still there are nearly 50% fewer buyers in the UK.
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If you want worse news try this one
http://www.newstatesman.com/economy/2008/06/house-prices-housing-british
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The Guardian is also on to it.
We are in for a crash in the housing market in the UK worse than in living memory.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/jun/05/housingmarket.houseprices
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“The Guardian is also on to it.
We are in for a crash in the housing market in the UK worse than in living memory.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/jun/05/housingmarket.houseprices “The good news is that the internet-era will just speed up the crash and we might be over with by the end of 2009. Of course this means that the prices will fall abruptly between now and then.
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Not only is Spanish property crashing as with the US crash which has been going for some while, the UK looks to be definitely heading the same way, I know some areas which have price drops already of 20% and still no takers.
Also now happening in France, hardly anything selling there it really is dire, and now in Cyprus which has recently had an exaggerated boom.
I agree with the experts comments that now is not a good time to buy anywhere, maybe for a few years to come! Perception changes fast, what looked reasonable value a year or so ago, now looks vastly overpriced, bog standard property in the UK, Spain etc now 30% or more overpriced.
As for Solbes putting all the blame on investors, the muppet should focus much of the blame on the crooked agents who talked Spanish property up as an investment 😡
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To be fair angie, many people made good profits in Spanish property.
Between 1998 and 2005 it was difficult to lose money. In the real boom period of 2001 to 2004, buyers were telling me how much they were going to make without any prompting. They had it all planned, they knew how much money they would make and what they would do with it. I sometimes felt inadequate as I could not offer people that kind of guarantee.
A boom is built through buyers confidence and access to easy credit and not by Estate Agents or developers.
To prove it, no Estate Agent or developer could start a boom now, because it is not and never has been in their power.
As I say, buyers create the demand and others just put themselves in the middle to make a profit.
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@mg wrote:
Fuengi, I can’t comment on what Katy has said, as I don’t have knowledge of it, but let us assume it is correct. Shouldn’t such things be familiar to you if you have already sorted funding and are looking to proceed with it?
Even if what Katy says is incorrect, you should have the knowledge to have come back immediately and correct her statement.
Are you ready for this, have you done your homework?agreed. spanish rental law is…arcane. i know it is standard practice to ask for 2 months, but this does not mean its legal! As this would not go through for several months, i am researching further to make sure my assumptions are not wrong.
@rt21 wrote:
Fuengi
although mg has a unique way of putting things over, I basically share his view that you sound as if you may not be fully prepared for this venture. With no disrespect to yourself I believe that investment in a falling market and in uncertain times, particulary when capital needs to be raised through banks, is best left to the experts. You may strike lucky but on the other hand ……..
Richardbeleive it or not, i am a realist. I realise everything that can go wrong, but i also see everything that can go right. I agree though this might just be a pipe dream for myself and i’ll have to find an investor who has cash.
@iano wrote:
Who/what is a ‘cordobes’ please?
Guessing it’s either someone who hails from Cordoba, or a colloquial term for an investor. I’ve checked dictionary/internet but nothing obvious.someone from cordoba. like mijeño or fuengiroleño.
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I don’t agree with you entirely Peter, when you say ‘buyers create demand’.
Much of the demand in Spain was created (started) by the larger estate agents and developers who ‘sold the dream’ as a form of investment and lifestyle to many Brits. etc, in most cases they completely lied and deceived 1000’s of innocent and naive people including many pensioners because of exhorbitant commissions of up to 30% in it’s prime on new-build.
The buyers just followed what they thought was honest advice, and the crooks should have been weeded out by Spain years ago.
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@Fuengi wrote:
someone from cordoba. like mijeño or fuengiroleño.
Thanks Fuengi.
I believe the root of the problem (or the ‘blame’ if you like) lies with many bodies, not least govts, central banks and lenders.
The ‘property boom’ was fuelled by cheap credit, made possible by low interest rates. Lenders (and buyers) were seduced by rising property prices, lenders were encouraged to lend irresponsibly, and buyers encouraged to borrow excessively.
There was misplaced trust throughout the chain. Lenders thought Central Banks would bale them out with interest rate cuts, Buyers trusted lenders were doing the right thing by lending 120% LTV or amounts 8 times average wage.
Estate Agents and Developers, knowing people had access to excess, easy credit were naturally tempted to load commissions, pushing prices ever higher.
No-one seemed to question the situation, property was going to rise for ever, so people believed.
Until sub-prime, nobody, govts, central banks, banks, thought to apply the brakes on an escalating situation, that with the benefit of hindsight, was pure folly.
There have been winners though. The people that bought their council house through RTB in 1991, sold up with a good profit and then bought a sizeable Spanish villa for cash in 2001, are probably wondering what all the fuss is about?!!
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“innocent and naive people”
Sorry, naive and innocent people should not invest in foreign countries, whose languages do not speak and whose legislation do not know.
These naive and innocent people should seek financial advisors who can give them hints on how to invest. Serious financial advisors would never tell pensioners to invest in property abroad… Maybe in foreign funds yes.
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I take your point angie about selling the dream. But I doubt the agents were inteligent enough to create such a phenomena without first experiencing a shift towards that phrase.
If the buyers don´t buy the hype, then the idea does not work. There are many failed products throughout history that didn´t catch on despite the hype and publicity – Remember the Sinclair C5 – Wonderloaf, etc.
Offering property for sale as “The Dream” was simply what those who dreamt of living in Spain called it. The agents just locked onto it. What other term could be found? The fact that no-one else has thought of another angle other than “the dream” suggests the Agents were not clever enough to come up with a phrase of their own. It, in any case, is only a dream, those who make it happen rarely stay for the long term.
I think we can also blame TV programmes and the printed media for the hype more than agents. A place in the sun, Hot properties, GMTV, gave the Spanish property market publicity far beyond any agents marketing budget. The Telegraph, The Times, The Guardian all sent their dizzy reporters to Spain, (most by the way are called Tamsin or Emilly for some reason I can´t understand).
There were many thousands of column inches printed urging their readers to go to Spain and buy a dream home!
As the demand grew, the few small agents that exhisted became bigger and yet more small agents arrived on the scene. Wealthy double glazing company bosses from the UK then followed by investing their double glazing profits and creating the Super-Size agents. But all this came due to demand and did not cause it, I concede they will have enlarged it though.
It is unlikely that the large agents arrived first and took a couple of years to create the demand, that would not be financially possible.
I stand by my first post that the demand fed the agents and as the demand got bigger, so did the agents.
The above is my opinion angie, I accept yours is too, and I only added my comments here for balance. I would not suggest your opinion is wrong by any means, or that mine is difinative either. 😀
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“I think we can also blame TV programmes and the printed media for the hype more than agents. A place in the sun, Hot properties, GMTV, gave the Spanish property market publicity far beyond any agents marketing budget. The Telegraph, The Times, The Guardian all sent their dizzy reporters to Spain”
As I said many times, the media is the first to blame , together with the banks.
The media created this hype of owning abroad, as if houses abroad were a new style of jeans of shoes…It makes me puke when I see the A Place in the Sun still hype-ing property abroad (Mrs. Amanda smiles at me from the magazine shelves at Tesco and Asda…).
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Get real Ralita, many innocent and naive people were totally misled by British Estate agents operating in Spain, at UK property shows on wet cold days, backed by English speaking lawyers, backed by Motor manufacturer Awards, Fopdac and the like, with representatives speaking perfect English from Banks, Developers, Law Firms, etc completely and utterly ‘sold the dream’ of living in Spain ‘where nearly everyone on the Costas speak good English’ they were told
Been to any of these roadshows have you? Everyone spoke English to the English who were told ‘your investment is safe’ ‘don’t worry’ ‘it’s a no brainer’ ‘we cherry pick the best plot for you’.
Of course many innocent and naive people were seduced by the agents’ lies, and sold this as a form of investment too, they got caught up with it and you have the cheek to blame them, not the crooks who did the miselling! 👿
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I totally agree Peter that many of the TV programmes did hype the dream and still do both in the UK and abroad, but the Estate agents in Spain and abroad should also have been properly regulated so as to keep things in check, it is far more regulated in the UK.
Personally I can’t stand Amanda Lamb, Phil Spencer, Kirsty Allsop etc although I appreciate that some are just faces to front the shows, not the case of the last two who are both agents talking up UK property still to naive innocent buyers.
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As I said before ralita, I don´t think the media created the demand any more than agents did.
My point is, buyers demand in the late 90´s was a trickle, by 2000 it was increasing. That´s when the media began to appear, looking for a story and trying to figure out what was happening. The agents were wondering what was going on too. Firstly there were a couple of clients per month, then there were 10 a day. Something was going on, and all this happened before the the super size agents or press got here.
It was quite simply, buyers demand. The media fuelled it and the led it laterly. The agents just dealt with the clients as they came along, bewildered and the the super size agents appeared overnight and used their double glazed sales techniques to increase sales and profits.
I remember in the early days, pre demand, that agents went around in flip-flops and closed at 2. In the afternoons they slept or drank, but they were very poor financially and amateur, almost new age hippies who spoke Spanish and got to find out where the odd property was for sale.
These agents are still ok, it´s the ones that turned “corporate and dynamic” – That are feeling the squeeze.
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“Been to any of these roadshows have you? Everyone spoke English to the English who were told ‘your investment is safe’ ‘don’t worry’ ‘it’s a no brainer’ ‘we cherry pick the best”
Yes, I have been. I came home with lots of brochures and bags. My kids learned how to use the scissors on Spanish, Turkey, Bulgarian and Moroccan brochures.
“‘sold the dream’ of living in Spain ‘where nearly everyone on the Costas speak good English’ they were told””
So people bought property in Spain without even visiting the country (I woulkd understand with Brazil or Dubai, but Spain was reachable by Easyjet and Ryanair at very low prices)??? And they believed that every Spanish person speaks English? :)))
Sorry, I do not believe anybody was that stupid.
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Ralita, what are you like, you don’t have to agree with me and I’m certainly not agreeing with you?
What I told you went on at these roadshows is the truth, many distressed people contacted me following newspaper articles exposing the scum who sold this new investment dream, if you’re not English you may not understand the feelings of pensioners etc reduced to tears. These were not ‘flippers’, but real people from the UK and Ireland who wanted to protect their old age and unfortunately totally believed what the bandwagon was telling them. So yes they were naive as I’ve said, and were lambs to the slaughter with salepeople who were often ex timeshare, 2nd hand car salesmen etc, in my book they were innocents.
Thank goodness for this website that has highlighted these scams together with the exposes in the Sunday Times.
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@angie wrote:
feelings of pensioners etc reduced to tears. These were not ‘flippers’, but real people from the UK and Ireland who wanted to protect their old age and unfortunately totally believed what the bandwagon was telling them. So yes they were naive as I’ve said, and were lambs to the slaughter .
Angie!! I have to be honest and say the thought of fragile pensioners dabbleing in property investment is about as immoral as them dealing in drugs. It´s awful, stupid and unecessary.
Drugs, Antiques, Fine Wines, Classic Cars and Overseas Property!!!!
Why do these people suddenly assume they know as much in 2 weeks as the experts and rogues who have spent their entire lives dealing in such things.
Go to an antique fair or a classic car show and you can see those who prey on the innocent. Why do people think the Overseas property market should be devoid of such rogues???
Why didn´t these people buy govenment backed bonds, TESSAs, and all the reliable investments provided by decent institutions.
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Anyway back to the topic being that UK property prices appear to be falling fast and the two newspaper articles posted earlier by economists rather than biased agents like Phil Spencer and Kirsty Allsop whose predictions for the UK market over the last year have proven completely wrong, well they are agents with a vested interest.
If the UK goes into reversal this will further have a serious negative impact on overseas property purchase including Spain, and especially in Eurozone, maybe it will be good in the long run, and things may become more realistic.
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“if you’re not English you may not understand the feelings of pensioners etc reduced to tears.”
I am not sure what you mean here. Are you saying that only English people can fell compassion?
Or you think that only English people were conned to buy these kind of “dreams”?
In either case, you are completely wrong.
“yes they were naive as I’ve said, and were lambs to the slaughter with salepeople who were often ex timeshare, 2nd hand car salesmen etc, in my book they were innocents.”
As I said it in other thread, the banks were supposed to end the “lambs to the slaughter” dreams. But banks were happy to take part to the feast.
“Why didn´t these people buy govenment backed bonds, TESSAs, and all the reliable investments provided by decent institutions.”
Peter, exactly my thoughts.
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Can’t answer that one Peter, why does anyone get hoodwinked, people get caught up with the false hype, all I can say I’ve spoken with many distressed old folk who only bought one off-plan pie-in-the-sky property as a nest egg for their retirement, sold of course by the larger uncaring scum agents. I know one Irish lady who mortgaged her Irish home to buy 2 apts. she couldn’t complete, lost her stage payments but has a 20 year mortgage outstanding in Ireland. I can’t say I blame her naivety, she was sold a pretty convincing case by scum. It sounded too good and it most certainly was.
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“If the UK goes into reversal”
The UK property already lost 8% from August 2007. So it is already in reversal big time.
” maybe it will be good in the long run, and things may become more realistic.”
Maybe??? It is the best thing which can happen for the human beings at the present moment! Houses are places to live, not investments to flip.
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Ralita, I don’t think, I know my facts, you misunderstand the way I post sometimes, maybe a difference there methinks.
No, lots of Dutch, Irish, German, Scandinavian and others were also conned by crooked agents, I’ve only met many UK people who were caught out being that I’m English and went to loads of these roadshows.
How do I know why they didn’t buy Bonds and safer bets, all I know is that Spain and it’s regulators did nothing to intervene to stop the crooks operating as agents etc, if so many would not have been caught out.
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“No, lots of Dutch, Irish, German, Scandinavian and others were also conned by crooked agents, I’ve only met many UK people who were caught out being that I’m English and went to loads of these roadshows.”
OK.
“How do I know why they didn’t buy Bonds and safer bets”
I can tell you why they did not buy Bonds and safer bets. Because the agents promissed them 20% increase per year whereas the Bonds only offer a stupoid 5% per year at most.
And they decided to risk.
One thing you should be aware of: the same happened in Bulgaria, Turkey, Greece, Cyprus, Romania, etc. Many agents in thoise countries were crooks (most of them trained in being crooks in Spain) and many people lost money. So Spain is not an isolated example, it just happened that more people wanted to purchase in Spain than in all other mentioned countries.
Maybe Florida was the mother of all crooks. BUt as I said before, I have never heard of properties deemed illegal after being contructed, except in Spain.
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There is a society developing in the UK… I think it can be called “lay the blame at someone else’s door”.
A rogue Estate Agent is no Estate Agent. A rogue Builder is no Builder, a rogue Doctor is no Doctor, a rogue Banker is no Banker, a rogue MP is no MP.
They are simply rogues and can operate in any or even many of the above professions.
It has to be acknowledged that the majority of all the above professions can be tainted by a select few rogues who have no right to operate under the name of said profession.
Walk into PC world or any high street name and they will offer you the deal that was taught to them that morning, even knowing there is a better deal coming next week. Purchase a CD from Amazon for 9.99 and will they send an email saying it will be 7.99 next week??
Buy a Spanish property from an Estate agent who has been taught it will increase by 30% next year, do you expect them to say it could be worth less in 2 years.
Of course not! Whatever people say to you, either through Sky News, The Daily Mail or in Prime Ministers Question Time, we have to take with a pinch of salt.
But of course, Spanish Property Agents are an exception, they have to be the only people on the planet that tells you the inside truth, even though the poor idiots don´t have a clue because 2 months before they were working in PC World????????????
Does Red Bull give you wings??????… I think not. Do Ainsleys Fairy Liquid dishwasher tablets remove every blemish from your roasting tin???? Absolutely not. These are household names, Lever Bros, PC World, and Red Bull!!!
Gordon Brown had the audacity to insist that his 2.7billion pound injection would help those who would lose out with the abolition of the 10p tax rate. Except the 10p tax rate benefited people to the tune of 5.3 billion pounds!!! So when he told David Cameron that people were getting 2.7 billion more was he telling the truth?’ In reality YES, because if he wasn´t giving it, they would be 2.7 billion worse off.
ITV, BBC, GMTV and many others have conned the general public out of millions of pounds in telephone voting revenue, yet we continue to watch Ant & Dec, GMTV, and X factor…why???
A bright tax graduate thinks of an interesting way of avoiding tax and goes to work for a large city accountant, another even brighter tax graduate goes to work for the Inland Revenue and proves to the authorities that the first tax graduates ideas are illegal. A 15 month trial begins at huge public expense to decide which one is wrong. Complicated tax methodology is discussed at such a high level that even the judge is bemused at the incoherent knowledge being discussed by the expert witnesses. Don´t worry though, we have a jury to decide right from wrong; the jury is made up of honest citizens from Quick Fit tyre fitters to PC World checkout staff!
I think we should all be able to put the Spanish property industry into perspective now and agree that there are equally more alarming issues at stake in the wider world!
Don´t get me wrong, there are some nasty rogues in property, but they are not Estate Agents, because they do things outside of the remit and requirements of normal agents……They are just rogues.
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Rather than edit my above post, I must add something here.
I am not attacking angie, I like her occasional posts, I wish she would post more often as she is always topical and incisive. That is my true opinion and not in any way patronising angie.
However, I know some terrible rogues in property, but I don´t consider them fellow agent. Simply because I know many fellow agent who are just that and not rogues.
If you were say; a cake shop owner, marketing professional or photo shop manager. You would be aware that some people in those industries are inept, unprofessional and even crooked, they may sell stale cakes, have poor hygene, charge small businesses high prices for poor promotional activities or simply develop on poor quality print paper or loose clients holiday photos and not care.
What I am saying is, if I said most or some of these people are rogues, crooks and scum, then after a while you would tire of it, it would grate on you and become irksome. You would no doubt acknowledge they exist, but become somewhat tired of the same old cliche words like Scum!
It would be nice if those posters using such language and terminology qualified it by saying they were not Spanish property agents but simply rogues, much as the same types that operate in your own industries and professions.
If those that use such words were to pm me with their jobs, I would happily work in such phrases as scum and liars into their industries when relating to them. After a couple of years you too would be insisting that a rogue or crook is just that, and is no part of your profession.
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Whilst I wouldn’t disagree with your views that there are corrupt lawyers, builders and agents in the UK, my impressions are that the scale of such corruption is much larger in Spain than in the UK. And I feel that is largely due to either a lack of regulation or enforcement of regulation. I just simply cannot believe that the scale of what has happened in Spain would have been allowed to happen in the UK.
Richard
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@rt21 wrote:
Whilst I wouldn’t disagree with your views that there are corrupt lawyers, builders and agents in the UK, my impressions are that the scale of such corruption is much larger in Spain than in the UK. And I feel that is largely due to either a lack of regulation or enforcement of regulation. I just simply cannot believe that the scale of what has happened in Spain would have been allowed to happen in the UK.
Richard
Richard, I am taking the debate beyond property. That is my whole point. I am referring to your industry/profession, everybodies industry/profession. I am saying, you work with/for crooks/rogues/scum and liars like everyone else, but you would quickly become intollerant if you were classed with them day in day out.
Incidently I was aware of many crooks in the legal profession in the UK.
A couple of weeks ago, an old client of mine who is a builder in ******** greater London, was bragging that his son is now in the planning department so planning will be easier from now on.
There is no taste or stomach for exposing corruption in the UK, if there were, forums like this would be highly prevelent.
The British like to expose olive skinned foregners and not their sons and grandsons at home.
Many of those who have been conned here in Spain, would, no doubt, have cohersed their friends into buying too. Then when they realise what they have gotten into, they are suddenly victims.
If we have to relate this to property alone we are terribly wrong.
Those pensioner victims that angie mentions would no doubt find it possible that their grandsons are working in Spain for a reputable estate agent, only to find that their beloved grandons are selling other pensioners deals that were considered a bad investment. It´s as possible as their grandsons working for PC World and selling bulk purchase rubbish to schoolchildren at high profit for their company.
I know we are on a Spanish property forum here, but let´s not loose our grip on reality please!
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Peter
i get what you are saying here, and i realise how words like scum, cheats, liars etc can be tiresome if you feel you are being tarred with the same brush. The reason i feel words like this are used is not to suggest all agents/lawyers/developers fall in to this category, but mainly to cut to the point of how diabolical the bad guys in these professions are! A sort of verbal revenge. Words like rogues, bad guys, swindlers, are to tame for these err……people!
as rt21 wrote, the lack of regulation and enforcement is the biggest problem. I think the main difference from, say Spain and the UK is that although we know through years of double glazing salesman and similar, that the UK has as many rogues as anyone, if you are swindled, you are considered the innocent party, not just naive or stupid.
Right from the dodgy agent through to the court room, how many people feel that in Spain, they can be confident that some legal body will make the right decision even in a black and white case of right and wrong, as is often the case with huge breaches of contract, no LFO/BG etc?
If enough rogues at all levels are allowed to prosper for to long, the end result is what we have now in Spain, and that’s such a disaster for many of us decent buyers, sellers, agents, lawyers, developers alike.
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Peter
I would think that only the naïve would believe that varying levels of corruption do not exist at all levels in the UK. However, simply expanding the argument to cover all industries/professions or countries does not really advance the debate in terms of what has happened in the property market in Spain that should have tarnished its reputation and those involved in it.
As I see it a lot of people have bought properties in Spain that are not legal. And when I referred in my previous post to “the scale of such corruption is much larger in Spain than in the UK”, I had this specific problem in mind. Haing said that I do appreciate that the problem with illegal builds stems not only from corruption but also from political differences within the different tiers of government. I would also add that I also appreciate that the majority of buyers of property in Spain have bought successfully without problems. However the problem of illegal builds is a significant one that has tainted the Spanish property market and those involved in it
As I mentioned in my previous post I simply cannot believe that such a problem would have arisen in the UK because the planning regulations are much tighter than in Spain. In witness of this I cannot recall reading or hearing or seeing many examples of illegal properties being built. Certainly not huge developments, which appears to be the case in Spain
Richard
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@rt21 wrote:
As I mentioned in my previous post I simply cannot believe that such a problem would have arisen in the UK because the planning regulations are much tighter than in Spain.
RichardI assume that you would consider a supermarket without consent is excluded from your statement?
A 8 bed house without consent also? -
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@goodstich44 wrote:
mg
this sort of thing obviously goes on in the UK as well, but i think we can safely say the proportion is virtually nothing compared to Spain, as is the amount of unregulated rogues at all levels. Or are we back to mg cuckoo land, where you pretend things are no worse than in the UK?
Take off the blinkers, open the mind and brain and read factual reports on what goes on in UK, USA, France, Germany, Italy, etc.,
In Government, Law, Property, Accountancy, Sales, etc., etc.,My thoughts are that many have been caught by a few in Spain, and a few of the many contribute to such forums as this and believe it is only in Spain and on such developments, that they have experience of, is where corruption and irregularities can be found.
Open the window, there is a big bad WORLD out there.
Surely, I believe I did read somewhere that you are in business, you have experienced it?No doubt someone will read into this comment that I am supporting villains, crooks and cheats.
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The “problem” that I was referring to in that statement was the scale of illegal builds. In the statement following that in my previous post I acknowledged that illegal builds do occur “In witness of this I cannot recall reading or hearing or seeing many examples of illegal properties being buillt (in the UK).” The key word in that statement was “many”
If the we were talking about the same level of illegal builds in the Spain as in the UK I doubt whether this forum would be as preoccupied with the subject as it is.
I love both Spain and the UK and think they are both beautiful countries. However, it doesn’t stop me from seeing faults in both countries and the last thing that I would try to do is defend the undefenceable in either
Richard
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@goodstich44 wrote:
mg
no, you take of the blinkers. Even if it suits you to see it another way, the amount of corruption and planning issues in the the UK is very small compared to that of Spain.
OK, mine are off. What about yours.
Stop making statements unless they are fact and can be substantiated.
What are the percentages in UK and Spain regarding illegal builds and planning issues?
You seem to read a local rag and believe all.
If anything, Spain learned from UK. Remember Poulson? -
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@Fuengi wrote:
in spain it has been on a larger scale. But maybe someone can supply reliable figures?
what % of builds in spain are illegal compared to the UK?What number of Enforcement Notices does any Local Authority have issued at any one time, for buildings without consnet.?
The main difference being is that in Spain, they tend to be grouped in clusters, or tower blocks, and therefore attract more publicity.
What percentage of all construction carried out in say the last 10 years, was without formal approval.
Surely before making across the board statements, one should know? -
mg
while everyone knows there are problems everywhere, i dont think we need numbers to confirm what most people already know, and is evident with the number of unsold apartments and the amount of corruption and poor regulation, reported on this site alone. I have come across more rogues in the short time of dealings with Spanish property, than i have in 18 years of running a business in the UK. That includes buying commercial and residential property here. That’s all the proof i need.
I’m not for one moment tarring all with the same brush, but let’s get real!
Outside of property, i don’t know?, but that’s not what we are talking about.
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If anybody thinks that UK is overall more honest than Spain, read “The Gods That Failed: How Blind Faith in Markets Has Cost Us Our Future” by Larry Elliott and Dan Atkinson, which just appeared.
The Guardian had some fragments of the book.
We have all been taken for a ride by the corporation and upper classes.
Property in Spain or UK does not mean anything in the overall game.
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@goodstich44 wrote:
mg
while everyone knows there are problems everywhere, i dont think we need numbers to confirm what most people already know,
So let us all in on it. How many illegal properties are there in Spain and UK, I for one do not know, let alone most people.
That is saying let us forget facts and figures and believe gossip and what we read.
Sorry, no.@goodstich44 wrote:
mg
poor regulation, reported on this site alone.
What persentage of the total number of buyers is just a handfull?
Be real. There are millions of people out there. How many contribute to this site?@goodstich44 wrote:
mg
I have come across more rogues in the short time of dealings with Spanish property, than i have in 18 years of running a business in the UK. That includes buying commercial and residential property here. That’s all the proof i need.
Perhaps you associated with the wrong people.
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@mg wrote:
There are millions of people out there. How many contribute to this site?
There are nearly 60 million people in Spain but this forum has just under 2300 members of which at least half live in the UK!
goodstich44 – we all appreciate that you have had (and still have) some problems. Please, you are in a minority and we need to get some balance here. Everytime you get the chance, you jump to point out corruption, bad REA’s, bad solicitors etc. Bottom line is that all countries, all trades, all professions have their black sheep, UK, Spain or anywhere else in the world. PLEASE – stop ramming the same old line down everyone’s throat in every thread you can. Most of the buyers in Spain have had positive experiences so don’t bother with a forum such as this! Those with bad experiences do need to get their act together, resolve their problems but also move on.
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rob
i’m just telling it as it is for me and many like me (minority or not) If you are fed up with me saying the same thing, it’s because i’m fed up of people trying to play bad side down, and pretending the whole property situation is not the disaster it is because of the many crooks working in a poorly regulated system. For many of us it’s very real. I have moved on, and i’m lucky to have a very good life, but that wont stop me fighting the rogues for justice, and that includes warning other people on here wherever possible.
The reality is, within the the minority you speak of, there are so many court cases against crooks, that hearing dates are years away, not weeks or months!. A large minority eh!
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goodstich – understand your position, but at some time a line has to be drawn under your experience. There are so many positives and so many people that have had positive experiences. Out of probably half a million property transactions a year in Spain (till last year) even if 10,000 people had bad experiences (and it won’t be that number) then it is still a small minority.
A lot of the rouge REA’s were British and because of the state of the market are disappearing as quickly as they arrived.
This forum does need to move on. The problems of building licences and LFO’s is largely a thing of the past and will never be repeated at the level we saw as regulation has been tightened. Many that had problems because of this will find themselves in a better position once the Junta approve the various plans before them. That must be allowed to happen and it won’t be quick. I just feel that maybe the soapbox could be put into temporary retirement and let people pick up from older posts (and from posts about NEW developments within these cases) about the history of these problems. They are not news in themselves but the outcomes etc wil be.
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@rob-fuengirola wrote:
goodstich – understand your position, but at some time a line has to be drawn under your experience.
I’m sure he will draw a line…when he gets his money back that he justly deserves.
.This forum does need to move on. The problems of building licences and LFO’s is largely a thing of the past
I don’t think so. People are posting on this forum and others that they have only recently found out that they have no LFO when they come to complete. It’s definitely not in the past and it will not be until the mess is sorted out.
and will never be repeated at the level we saw as regulation has been tightened
(Shutting the stable door……….. 🙄 )
And because people like many on here have constantly warned others about it. It’s easy for you to say “put the soap box to rest” It’s not your money the developers have got. -
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mg, it is clear what your opinion is on the subject -here is mine, based solely on my experiences of having lived in the UK, USA & Spain.
In the UK and USA you can be unlucky and come a cropper due to corruption and unscrupulous business practices. In Spain, an honest businessman stands out a mile from the sea of sharks. The only places in the world where I have been ripped off are Spain & Gibraltar. Therefore due to my personal experiences and those of my friends I would say that 3rd world Spain (because that is what it is in terms of business practices) bears no comparison with the UK & USA.
Britain and America are modern economies where good and honest business are encouraged and thrive. Spain is a home to the wide boys, wheeler dealers, serious criminals of Europe -a great place to launder money. -
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@forestfire wrote:
I would say that 3rd world Spain (because that is what it is in terms of business practices) bears no comparison with the UK & USA.
Absolutely.
The US and UK have had hundreds of years experience of democracy, world trade and international finance. As we know, until 30 odd years ago, Spain was pretty much isolated, and all but closed to the rest of the world.
Even up to the late 80s, almost the only Spanish company with a global presence was the Chupa Chups lollipop firm.
After the borders were opened, the country’s lack of business regulation and control mechanisms were systematically exploited by crooked foreign businessmen, probably even more so than native Spaniards themselves.
Business practices, procedures and industry regulations are only introduced and refined over a long period of time, and Spain is obviously playing catch-up.
It’s going to take time.
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I’m back as I don’t always have time to stay online.
Ralita, it does seem that you are actually agreeing with me to some extent that it was the ‘greedy’ agents who promised 20% (and more) returns to clients, I still maintain that many vulnerable people were taken in by these scum and I don’t see that as greed on the part of the clients, they were gullible and got shafted.
My gripe mainly has and always will be with these crooked agents, the lack of Spanish regulation, the ineffective bodies like FOPDAC, AIPP (who just want members subs.), Lawyers recommended by said agents, some Developers who build cr4p in Spain (and elsewhere), TV companies pushing ‘hot investment abroad’, Land Grab in Spain etc, and to my knowledge after all these years nothing much has changed except the market has crashed which in itself might get rid of the scammers and make Spain do things properly.
Spanish property dealings have been rotten to the core for years, since the scammers jumped on the lucrative bandwagon. 😡
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Totally with you Goodstich, Claire and others on this.
Some of mg’s and Rob’s comment seem bizarre to say the least, of course corruption occurs with property and other matters elsewhere but I would stake my house on it that this does not compare to Spain’s corrupt property industry. For example why has the S. Times exposed one agent alone ‘Awful’ 6 times at least, 5 of which ref Spanish scams, 1 in Turkey, the facts speak for themselves, most exposes on TV and in the Press have centred on Spanish property matters, take Land Grab as well, illegal builds, bulldozing of properties, crooked Mayors and Town Halls everywhere on the Costas.
It also stands to reason that there is more corruption where the industry is unregulated as in Spain, it is regulated to greater extent in the UK. Spain also constructs many times more property than the UK, France, Italy etc for example so no comparison there.
This site is valuable to point out these flaws to more people thinking of buying in Spain, generally those involved with property sales in Spain just don’t like being knocked after all their lucrative exhorbitant commissions are fast disappearing.
Yes Spain is a lovely country and many ex-pats live happily there, but there are 1000’s of distressed sellers who want out but can’t sell, just check most urbanizations and the Sur for proof.
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Peter, regarding categories of estate agents operating in Spain I would think they come under 3 headings: Honest, Rogues and Scum.
I have asked the question here in the past several times, ‘where does one find an honest agent in Spain?’ I assume through recommendation, but could one trust that recommendation, that’s how cynical I’ve become re Spain, I’m not saying they don’t exist but I’ve never come across one yet.
Rogues? Well I’ve met a few in Spain, borderline crooks I suppose, sort of wide boys.
Scum? Yes definitely could mention up to a dozen or so generally the larger brash agents, even had dealings with a few, out and out crooks who probably gave Spain such a bad reputation. These charged as much as 30% comms on new-build (leaving people in negative equity as soon as they completed), involved with Land Grab (they knew what they sold), involved with ‘White Whale’ etc and money-laundering, encourage clients to pay with ‘B’ money, have the most media exposes, generally the past-masters at ripping people off.
No other word could describe these other than ‘Scum’, these are the ones Spain knew about but still allowed to operate with impunity.
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@angie wrote:
I have asked the question here in the past several times, ‘where does one find an honest agent in Spain?’ I assume through recommendation, but could one trust that recommendation, that’s how cynical I’ve become re Spain, I’m not saying they don’t exist but I’ve never come across one yet.
Are we to assume that you have dealt with all the reputable professionals in the major cities in Spain, or is it just in the resorts, where the UK left-overs often trade.
Adopt the policy you would if looking for a good agent in any UK city.@angie wrote:
sort of wide boys.
Of those there will be many. None in UK though?
@angie wrote:
These charged as much as 30% comms on new-build
Much like the agents flogging pensions in UK then?
@angie wrote:
No other word could describe these other than ‘Scum’,
Same as the people flooging medival aids, pensions, security, around many houses in UK then and robbing the old.
There is good and bad in all fields and in all countries.
If I were you, I would try on mix with a better and more reliable standard as it is obvious that you are not associating with the best.
The ones that gave Spain such a bad reputation, were they all Spanish.The good reputable, honest, reliable professionals in the cities must look at a forum such as this, sit back and smile at how we can be so ignorant of facts.
“Some of mg’s and Rob’s comment seem bizarre” – Or just we choose who we associate with and use to represent us?
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What are you bantering on about mg, you bring things into topics that are not anything to do with my argument?
I’m not involved with UK pension miselling, nor indeed agents inland in Spain, my gripe is with the crooks who have misold on the Costas.
As for associating with the so called reputable ones, perhaps you could list most of them for me please, because if you can’t where is the information for new purchasers so they can avoid the sharks? On the other hand, I could list a dozen or so of the crooked ones along with the names of many of their staff who constantly move on.
I’ve often stated that most of the crooked agents were indeed British selling to British, much of their dirty work was originally done in the UK at roadshows.
Are you an agent mg? Please send me a list of as many honest and reputable agents and their recommended lawyers asap so I can sort the wheat from the chaff, and don’t compare regulation in the UK with that in Spain, there’s no comparison, at least in the UK things get to Court well before 5-7 years.
Now the topic was I believe the state of the UK’s housing market which I tried to get back to yesterday, what do you think of the topic?
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There has been little thought towards re-building international confidence in Spains property market. Maybe it is too early to think about rebuilding confidence when so may investors are being/are about to be screwed.
Time is a great healer, but we have yet to feel the full effect of the 2 million property-build surplus. Some feel that this will keep property prices PERMANENTLY depressed in Spain for a generation. That is fine if you are happy here, but if you need to move on then you will have to swallow a massive discount on your selling price if you want to get lucky.
Perhaps you can say that the lack of regulation in the Spanish property market has led to the self destruction. Outsiders will always remember the images of bulldozers levelling villas. Outsiders will never understand how corrupt developers get dodgy planning permission, how agents sell these properties, how the local council then decides to hold the buyer culpapble. And then the developers want goverment bail-outs because the market has crashed. As if somehow, this motley crew of losers are of some strategic significance to anyone.
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@angie wrote:
What are you bantering on about mg, you bring things into topics that are not anything to do with my argument?
I’m not involved with UK pension miselling, nor indeed agents inland in Spain, my gripe is with the crooks who have misold on the Costas.
Many would realise that it was given as a comparable and that it is not just agents in Spain that gey away with 30%.
Didn’t you realise that?@angie wrote:
As for associating with the so called reputable ones, perhaps you could list most of them for me please, because if you can’t where is the information for new purchasers so they can avoid the sharks?
If your in business there or trade property, surely you would be aware?
@angie wrote:
Are you an agent mg?
No and if you were alert enough, you would have read that, or gathered by now.
@angie wrote:
Please send me a list of as many honest and reputable agents and their recommended lawyers asap so I can sort the wheat from the chaff, and don’t compare regulation in the UK with that in Spain, there’s no comparison, at least in the UK things get to Court well before 5-7 years.
Now what on earthe are you on about?
@angie wrote:
Now the topic was I believe the state of the UK’s housing market which I tried to get back to yesterday, what do you think of the topic?
Not a lot, but of the state of the UK residential property market, you don’t have to be involved in it to be aware that it is shot.
40% discounts, what else could it be classed as but shot.
Just wait for the get rich quick BTL operators try and sort funding out.
Bargains galore. -
@kingy wrote:
Time is a great healer,
Yup, that sums it up. Many have forgotten the last recession and look what has happened now.
Still, no 15% interest rates yet.@kingy wrote:
There has been little thought towards re-building international confidence in Spains property market. Maybe it is too early to think about rebuilding confidence when so may investors are being/are about to be screwed.
If finance was still readily available, I bet that many would still be buying in Spain, despite what has gone on and the publicity it has been given.
@kingy wrote:
Perhaps you can say that the lack of regulation in the Spanish property market has led to the self destruction.
And in SOME instances, the lack of common sense from Brits who buy the “rose tinted” before leaving UK to buy the property.
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I’m so glad you’re not an agent mg, you had me worried for a while because a fair few seem to post on here because they have a vested interest in the market not crashing.
No, I’m not in business here so for all those who are not in business here where does the new purchaser (if there are any) go for a list of reputable agents, (I really haven’t met any yet), who can they associate with who won’t mislead them? As for comparisons, I wouldn’t want to compare spanish sardine sellers’ profits with that of UK double glazing for example, I just can’t compare property crime’s numbers in Spain with anything near as large in the UK, and Court procedures and regulation are far better in the UK.
Back to topic, yes I think the UK’s market is also going down, not sure by how much, some say up to 40% in 3 years, I do know that where we lived in Devon 15-20% has been lopped off similar properties already but still no takers.
There are still areas however where vendors will not lower their prices yet, but that seems to be stagnation as they are not selling either.
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@Claire wrote:
House prices in my area have fallen by a massive 0.08%!
So how many are there on the market in your area?
What is the asking price?
What is the average house price?
The official figures may be 0.08% but when buying or making an offer, you may be surprised what is on offer.
The area where I quoted an example of 40% below, the official figures are 1.5%
I think many are in denial, as seldom do people like to accept their assets are depreciating. -
There are an average amount for sale, but not enough for demand. In our local weekly property gazette, I got to page 10 before property was below £1,000, 000! I accept I live in an area where prices are very high.
People are upgrading their property rather than moving. Trades people are having a boom time. -
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i really think the situation in the UK will sort itself out when the credit crunch issues are either resolved or to some degree become the new norm? The supply and demand situation, the justice system, the regulation, and the history, still make the UK a fair and very safe place to buy in my opinion compared to Spain.
Like most here, i love Spain as a country, but i’m gutted that the greed, poor regulation and poor and painfully slow justice, has allowed crooks at all levels to prosper for far to long (including many UK agents in Spain). Will Spains costas ever really recover, without huge change in direction regarding the issues that have done so much damage?
Thanks to this site and similar, at least far fewer people should fall foul of the rogues, and that must be a step forward. -
See we are back to the “bargains” that are around both here and the UK 🙄 What an excellent way to prove a point, sellers are taking up to 40% less than they advertised…oh yes 😕 I am not sure in the South East buyers are accepting such low offers when properties are shifting within a few weeks of being marketed. Some buyers on this forum have also stated that sellers are refusing offers.
My Daughter has put an offer in on two properties in the UK. both went for more than the asking price!
So now you have the insight folks, there are bargains but if you can’t find them you aint clever enough like some of our posters, if they aren’t agents they sure have picked up the lying lingo 😆
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“I got to page 10 before property was below £1,000, 000! I accept I live in an area where prices are very high.”
Claire, I agree that desirable areas in South East/London will hold their value.
I feel very fortunate that I do not work in one of these areas and I could buy
affordable houses when I moved to UK. Thanks God I refused a job at Imperial College, I think it is crazy to live in London (everybody I know there in academia wants to move ASAP). -
One of the reasons house prices remain high where I live is because many people, especially those who have a young family, want to move away from London. We are within easy access to London by road & rail, the airports and channel ports, whilst being in lovely countryside. It is the old “Location, location, location” scenario.
It is the 30 somethings that are buying these £1,000,000 +houses. 😯
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“One of the reasons house prices remain high where I live is because many people, especially those who have a young family, want to move away from London. We are within easy access to London by road & rail, the airports and channel ports, whilst being in lovely countryside. It is the old “Location, location, location” scenario.”
Sorry, I meant: it is crazy to work in London if not holding a job in the financial district. Lecturer’s salaries are 10% bigger and the cost of living is almost double.
I live in a lovely countryside and my mortgage is 20% of the salary for a new house… And I write papers with people from London via e-mail collaboration.
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