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I had read this afternoon that the Prior’s have won their final hearing & there is no more appeals left. This is excellent news with serious consequences for all & sundry affected or not affected by the Scandel.
I would like to congratulate them & give them a big hug. Their persistance paid off and what price they paid for it only they and the loved ones will know.
Will the Junta/Vera Council pay up or do they have to start another battle !!!!
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In Spain you always have to start another battle. For them it will be in trying to extract compensation from the council:
(but well done to them anyway on getting this far)
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@shakeel wrote:
I had read this afternoon that the Prior’s have won their final hearing & there is no more appeals left. This is excellent news with serious consequences for all & sundry affected or not affected by the Scandel.
I would like to congratulate them & give them a big hug. Their persistance paid off and what price they paid for it only they and the loved ones will know.
Will the Junta/Vera Council pay up or do they have to start another battle !!!!
Unfortunately they will never get an Euro out of it. Junta/Vera Council will never pay anything.
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@Chopera wrote:
@flosmichael wrote:
@dartboy wrote:
Even if ordered to pay do the council have any money.
Of course not.
They can get the money by raising taxes on “expat home owners” (basically the Priors)
They will raise taxes on “expat home owners” by a lot. But they will still not give a cent to the Priors and will find a million reasons not to.
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I often wonder how this one, horrible case, now known to most of the sensible house-buying public has affected Spanish property prices and perhaps even the Spanish economy itself.
Vera council, a typical Spanish administration, may have been the initial culprits, but the Andalucian regional government, and the Spanish central government could have corrected an obvious injustice long, long ago, but they have chosen not to despite the worldwide indignation the case spawned.
It has amply illustrated that you cannot safely buy a property in Spain, and even guarantees at government level are valueless. Maybe that is why the Spanish government is now concentrating on Russia and China perhaps hoping that news of the Priors case hasn’t reached that far east.
You often hear Lo Siento in the street from ordinary people, but the words are not used at even the lowest administrative level, and the old boys in Sevilla would never use them to the guiris in their province. They don’t like them.
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Good point there Rocker, maybe they don’t hear about the Priors and similar Brit cases. Maybe the Brits are more accepting of injustices like this but I would guess that the Russians and possibly the Chinese would not be quite so patient, I don’t think town halls in Spain would want to upset some of those guys, someone can always be paid to sort things out, their crims make the British crims look like pussycats ❗
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@Chopera wrote:
I’m afraid to say that the Priors’ case is completely unheard of to 99% of the Spanish, let alone the Russians, Chinese, etc
I’m not so sure that’s true, the case was exposed in the major Spanish newspapers as well, but the rest of Spain are so fed up with the stench from Andalucia, especially Marbella, they try to ignore it.
Unfortunately, there is little sympathy for the foreigners involved, like the Priors. Spanish people tend to, perversely, think that the horrible corruption shambles down there was initially caused by the foreigners wanting to live in a beautiful, but unspoilt part of southern Spain, the poorer part of the country.
The foreign Ricos came and corrupted their officials, without the despised Ricos, this would not have happened and that lovely part of their country would still have been as it was 60 years ago. Piss poor, but lovely for holidays.
As I said, it’s perverse thinking, most of it.
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The Councils may be not have the money. However the Councils has assets & they should be embargoed. I have spoken to many Spaniards & they have not heard of the Prior’s as most Spanish people have a very short attention span. I noticed while I was discussing with them they had long switched off.
I am delighted to say that the Chinese & the Russians have rather extreme ways of solving these kid of issues try and complain in a Chinese restaurants. I do not subsribe to their methods but in a lawless & unfair i.e. jungle, jungle rules OK !!!
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We lived in the town next to Vera and it’s true as Rocker says, very few Spaniards knew about it or cared about it. The foreigners went there with their money and thought they could tell them what to do…and now the money has dried up it’s all the foreigners fault again.
I thought that they had been offered a rental property but they turned it down for some reason? I think it may have been because they have dogs and the rental didn’t allow them or suchlike (correct me anyone if this is not the case as it was only hearsay).
I don’t understand why Vera don’t offer a new property, which they have so many of as the banks have embargoed everything… they could use some notes stashed at the town hall offices to buy a place….. and say ‘here’s a new house, now stop going on about it all’.
But, I think a lot of it is the fight for justice for all who have illegal houses….. to keep it in the news. But, is it just in the Daily Mail and local expat papers? Does anyone else really care, I sadly think not. Most in the UK will say ‘well they left, they got what they deserved for living the high life in a flash villa’ or else complete indifference. There is more simpathy for a non Brit who has a tough time in the UK than for the Priors?
There are sadly so many Brits who are stuck out there (as I know from being in the Almeria region, just search Albox and Arboleas and see the scale of it). There are older people who are going to die of old age before the illegal builds situation gets sorted. It’s been a real dream smasher…. so sad. So many people didn’t go to Spain to speculate and make a quick buck. Many sold up in the UK to move there to retire with the sun on their bones and now they have a house without paperwork which they can’t sell or even hand over to anyone as an inheritance. I really hope that now there is a Brit in the Arboleas council that he’ll be able to get things rolling sooner. The corruption and blatant cruelty in the way things were done should be highlighted. It should also be highlighted that most Brits bought from Brit estate agents…of whom we still hear nothing??
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@itsme:
Irrespective if they were rich, poor, high/low life or the politics of envy. They did everything correctly as I understand. The failure in the system and it the system that should have been tighnted irrespective of the buyers nationality. Let us not forget the indifference our Embassy has shown on a matter that affected thousands of Britians.I find it astonshing when people say that the agent was British and he/she should have acted in a another fashion. Why should they have ? the weakness in the system allowed all and sundry to fester.
To think that the Brits are some kind of whiter than white is total fallacy. You just have to look at the Imperial past & for the recent past wait as each year towards 30 years count down the information becomes is available. The government in power at the time apologises to the affected parties/Countries.
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It begs the question, are there any innocents in the Spanish property disaster? When you stick a peasant in an Armani suit and give him a BMW to replace his donkey, can you wonder if he goes along with the corruption all around?
Can you wonder at the British agents who flocked to Spain when they could smell the money? And the Spanish politicians, were they going to sit back and see all the crooks getting rich without enriching themselves?
And what about us (me), who came over and blatantly ‘flipped’ houses to make instant profits. Buy off plan, and sell on without even seeing the place? Building mansions where there should be cow sheds.
I could go on.
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@Rocker wrote:
@Chopera wrote:
I’m afraid to say that the Priors’ case is completely unheard of to 99% of the Spanish, let alone the Russians, Chinese, etc
I’m not so sure that’s true, the case was exposed in the major Spanish newspapers as well, but the rest of Spain are so fed up with the stench from Andalucia, especially Marbella, they try to ignore it.
Unfortunately, there is little sympathy for the foreigners involved, like the Priors. Spanish people tend to, perversely, think that the horrible corruption shambles down there was initially caused by the foreigners wanting to live in a beautiful, but unspoilt part of southern Spain, the poorer part of the country.
The foreign Ricos came and corrupted their officials, without the despised Ricos, this would not have happened and that lovely part of their country would still have been as it was 60 years ago. Piss poor, but lovely for holidays.
As I said, it’s perverse thinking, most of it.
Of the very few Spanish who read newspapers, even fewer would have caught the articles, and as you say, to them it’s just another property scandal. These scandals are in no way isolated to expats or the south – many people all over Spain get stung all the time. How many expats have heard of the scandal in Los Berrocales just outside Madrid where the council decided to put the project on hold indefinitely (along with all the deposits that had been put down)? The problem is that it’s so common for this to happen (not actual bulldozing I admit) that it is taken for granted – people just switch off. Similar thing with the banks.
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@chopera
The level of corruption is so deep rooted from generations that most youngster of today cant even differenciate and the others just take it as another dialy occurance not even worth spending a moment of their time. -
I find it astonshing when people say that the agent was British and he/she should have acted in a another fashion. Why should they have ? the weakness in the system allowed all and sundry to fester.
To think that the Brits are some kind of whiter than white is total fallacy. You just have to look at the Imperial past & for the recent past wait as each year towards 30 years count down the information becomes is available. The government in power at the time apologises to the affected parties/Countries.[/quote]
But it has to be said that thousands of Brits only bought these properties due to the trust they had in their ‘one of us’ agents. How many of these agents were postmen, secretaries or whatever back in the UK and because they couldn’t speak enough Spanish couldn’t get any other jobs to pay their bills. They were desperate to sell to earn their money. Yes shame on them as well, they could have jacked the job in, learnt some Spanish and done something else with their conscience intact.
You just had to sit in a bar/cafe and you’d see some Parador or Medsea uniformed sales agent doing the whole ‘and you can rent it out for 300 euros per week, it’s a great investment, buy now or regret it, there are waiting lists’. Just let anyone try to get near that couple to tell them to take off their rose tinted glasses….those agents guarded their prey from anyone who might put them off or steal their sale.
I’m not saying that Brits out there are whiter than white, the opposite actually, lots are complete scum bags. I think that many Spanish look at the Brits out there on their second marriages ‘starting again’ and tut at the way we can just up and leave our family and friends for a boozy lifestyle in the sun.
I was more often really embarrassed at being British….. the classic ‘awreet mate’ car salesman type with his bleach blond hair wife in her white jeans. They had the money to buy a villa and swan around like the bees knees and didn’t care how naff they were. It was the ‘new Marbella’ wasn’t it…..
I agree that the whole system being corrupt led everyone to be greedy…. i’ve sadly seen too many sets of deeds or catastral papers where Brits had paid way over the odds for something which doesn’t really exist, or half does, or it’s not registered properly, or land missing….. etc. etc. In those cases local Spanish made a fortune playing ‘developer’ to the sun blind Brits who thought that the 100k was so cheap compared to the UK. Wasn’t cheap compared to the 5k the Spaniard paid the old couple who also had a town house and didn’t really make use of their old cortijo anymore…..
The system stank, and continues to stink….because too many people are still on the make out there.
Will it change, a bit, and slowly…and they’ll make out that it’s changed…..but we all know deep down that they’ll carry on if they can.
Where is all the cash hidden though…. is it in Brazil, will Switzerland highlight who has accounts there…. it must be somewhere as it would be very Princess and the Pea to have it all stashed under the mattress.
The whole Spanish property disaster is a real shame for everyone but a few….
I know two who ‘flipped’ properties… buy two, sell them on….. made their money and now they are more comfortable than the rest of us. We weren’t on the ball, we were ignorant, we were stupid…. we just bought homes to live in or holiday in and never imagined that they’d be worth less than a quarter of their paid value a few years later.
We had a baby when we bought, we assumed we’d be there about 5 years and then be able to sell and have more of a deposit from the sale than the 20k we put down for the flat… that’s now not the case.
Our estate agent earnt 5k out of us, not that she needs it when she’s the Mayors sister and our neighbour as well…..not a lot of work went into that sale. Maybe when I next am there and see her dressed to the nines in her 4×4 i’ll ask her for the commission back…. ha ha ha ha ha….
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Although it’s not the only place where the Spanish property disaster had its roots, Marbella is the one where the excesses were the greatest. It wasn’t even the Brits who started it, that was the Germans, but the entrepreneurs from the UK soon rolled in and took over.
I witnessed the incredible boom and corruption from the sidelines, my business was not connected with property, but it boomed too. I made a move to start moving away after a personal meeting with Jesus Gil, the mayor of Marbella. It was like meeting the devil himself, pure evil disguised as a human being. He had a Russian bodyguard at the time, and my Gestor’s telephone number, which worried me.
I sold up and moved up the coast to Valencia which was a lot calmer and not near as corrupt. The daft thing is, now that the dust has settled, I’ve been back down to the Malaga province, house hunting, but away from Marbella, inland where the Gypsies live.
I think the place itself is the attraction, its bloody history or maybe the closeness to Africa. It’s so different to the boring green fields of England where people go to bed at the same time that Spanish families set forth to eat and dance the night away.
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Good post Itsme 😉
Unfortunately many of those British agents in the boom were nothing more than spiky gelled hair wide boys and sort of glammed up girls who knew nothing about property but soon learnt how to deceive their fellow countrymen and women once they had a sniff of their commissions. Meanwhile the likes of Ol MacD at Awful Estates were copping the other 95% of the package, not paying their taxes and overheads, and living the life of Riley in secure gated developments with guard, like Torre/Casa Bermeja ,before some of them fled to pastures new like Thailand with their stash 😡
At least some of the real bad boys and girls have gone now and some of the smaller ones left are more transparent, these can become niche agents dealing with quality not quantity 😛
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@Rocker wrote:
I think the place itself is the attraction, its bloody history or maybe the closeness to Africa. It’s so different to the boring green fields of England where people go to bed at the same time that Spanish families set forth to eat and dance the night away.
Do you really know any spanish 🙄 Spanish families eat, drink and dance the night away when they are on holiday or en fiesta. The rest of the time they are like any other nation as they have to work, some on shifts. Our neighbours went to bed around the same time as us….sometimes before. My Cousin is an eye surgeon at the CDS hospital….he is on duty in the theatre at 8am…do you think he spend his working days partying 😮 Even out rich Lawyer neighbour rarely ate out during the week and they were in bed by midnight.
The myth that the spanish party all the time is put out by the estate agents and tour operators. Most small villages are dead by 10pm. The bars close then as all their clients go home to eat. Of course if you spend time in Gyppo areas it maybe different 🙄
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@katy wrote:
@Rocker wrote:
I think the place itself is the attraction, its bloody history or maybe the closeness to Africa. It’s so different to the boring green fields of England where people go to bed at the same time that Spanish families set forth to eat and dance the night away.
Do you really know any spanish 🙄 Spanish families eat, drink and dance the night away when they are on holiday or en fiesta. The rest of the time they are like any other nation as they have to work, some on shifts. Our neighbours went to bed around the same time as us….sometimes before. My Cousin is an eye surgeon at the CDS hospital….he is on duty in the theatre at 8am…do you think he spend his working days partying 😮 Even out rich Lawyer neighbour rarely ate out during the week and they were in bed by midnight.
The myth that the spanish party all the time is put out by the estate agents and tour operators. Most small villages are dead by 10pm. The bars close then as all their clients go home to eat. Of course if you spend time in Gyppo areas it maybe different 🙄
I’ve spent most of my time in Spain in city areas, Marbella (is it a city?), and more recently, Valencia and Alicante.
What I said about Spanish people going out late to dine and dance the night away is purely based on what I have observed over many years. That people living in villages don’t do that seems a bit daft to mention.
As far as Gippo areas are concerned, I will bow to your experience of them, I don’t have it.
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The Spanish that I know celebrate big time at Holy Comunions, weddings, christenings and Christmas Eve. The rest of the time it’s the youngsters (ie: 18 year olds and the sad 30 somethings who haven’t managed to settle down yet) who are out at all hours. Maybe it’s the week long town fiestas where the oldies down to babies are out for the week in their glad rags but the rest of the year it’s just bed time as normal isn’t it?
Everyone here in Ireland have said ‘why have you left Spain to come here with all that lovely sunshine’….. sunshine and tinto de verano is great for a holiday but you don’t live a holiday lifestyle when you ‘live and work’ there. A week or two on holiday in the sun is great, any more and having to work and no thanks….
ps, what parts of at least Andalucia don’t have gippo areas…..? most Brits can’t tell the difference I reckon…. maybe the hooped earrings and flamenco dress give it away 😉
Andalucia is very different from the other regions of Spain, they are famous for their fiestas, lazy siestas….and loudness. Perfect if you add some much needed wealth after so many years of poverty…..boom, there was the property bubble. Worthless orange/olive groves that were suddenly worth millions. A couple I know in their 50’s sold their inherited land for 3 million euros. They still have their same car, same little house but just dress a bit better than their old working outside clothes. Good for them… but others became too flash and greedy and hurt other human beings and that was the bad side.
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I’m not rich, but comfortable after many years of hard work. And I’m very aware that I’m living in a country where there is increasing unemployment and poverty. It makes sense to modify your lifestyle as an expat to not unnecessarily draw attention to yourself.
I cringe when I see expats driving around in flash cars and I’m not at all surprised when they are targeted by the criminals because of their obvious wealth.
It goes a lot deeper. The new tax laws concerning assets held abroad will affect almost every expat living in Spain, as well as Spanish people. Even a modest house in the UK is bound to be valued at over 50K, the average price of a semi is way beyond that.
But we’re discussing that awful Prior’s case and the demolition of their house by the state. Vera council members undoubtedly know of many houses in their area built for expats with ‘dodgy’ planning permission, they are everywhere throughout Spain, tens of thousands of them, and a lot of them are blots on a Spanish landscape.
In the Malaga province, near Estepona, just off the motorway, they have chopped off the top of a mountain to build houses for expats. I shudder every time I drive past. And I’m an expat, what must the Spanish people think?
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come on, gippo… gitano…. there are ‘areas’ which are obviously best to avoid as ‘Mr and Mrs Tourist’.
Going back to the Prior’s, and from knowing Vera (actually a fantastic town and also a great beach area which was sadly affected by the floods recently).
Zaptatero had a holiday home in Vera (either now sold or still on the market?).
My husband doesn’t like it as there is rivalry between his town and Vera, being so close…. only something which has been going on for a century or suchlike 😉
But, it did actually surprise me that Vera did order the demolition. Pure stupidity….since there are so many enormous Spanish houses in the same area which didn’t get knocked down. If they did the Priors why oh why didn’t they do all the ‘illegal’ houses?? They must have known the knock on effect, especially with Vera Playa being such an expat/German/Dutch/French and Madrid area for holidays??
I remember that the Priors did have paperwork but as we all know, paperwork in Spain can sometimes not mean anything… but still very strange that they knocked it down. Was it the ‘brash’ english showing off their cash which annoyed someone at the town hall….so he in all his ‘macho’ ways ordered the demolition ‘to show those girri’s who’s the boss’ ??
Is it more in the press because it was a one off in that town and the Prior’s have fought more than say all those in Albox and Arboleas who are in more of a mess??
Vera seems to be a very wealthy town so i’m sure the council have money to compensate, but I guess they just don’t want to? They should and say sorry to move on but stubborness is a major problem…..
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@Chopera wrote:
I’m afraid to say that the Priors’ case is completely unheard of to 99% of the Spanish, let alone the Russians, Chinese, etc
I don’t think it will make much difference if they do hear of it. The famous case of the US billionaire buying London Bridge (thinking it was Tower bridge) even if probably untrue, is known by many, but it never stopped speculators investing in London… Always a case of “caveat emptor” (buyer beware!)
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Well the house next to the Priors which is even larger is still standing and “legal” and apparently he works for the Junta 🙄
Most spanish think that ex-pats just came over, bought cheap land and deliberately built on it…they have never had the real story and the worry and heartache behind it. Don’t forget a lot of spanish built these knowingly built these illegal houses in the small pueblos. Many small builders/developers were relatives and cronies of the Mayors and were given a nod and a wink….until the Junta stepped in.
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A good cartoonist should draw a picture of British OAP’s in their hard hats saying ‘Doris, back up the cement lorry just a bit more’…..
That’s what gets me when the Spanish say it…. the Brits went there and built on illegal land. Who built!? The builders were nearly always Spanish (well, immigrants doing the labouring in their flip flops…). Any Brits who did a self build probably jumped through hoops and paid through the nose in licences rubber stamped by the town hall…. ‘yes that’s ok, just pay x amount, oh and and another amount for this’….. I know a guy who had a bar who paid nearly 30k just in licences and then found out that most of the Spanish bars had only paid a quarter of that amount, if at all!
It’s true that Brits bought cheap, cheap being cheaper than in their home country but not cheap compared to the prices the Spanish paid….. 🙁
What makes me laugh is that whole urbanisations were built and the Junta didn’t notice anything….. no one said ‘oh blimey, look at all that building work going on’. !?? Opps, how did that all get there.
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@DBMarcos99 wrote:
@Chopera wrote:
I’m afraid to say that the Priors’ case is completely unheard of to 99% of the Spanish, let alone the Russians, Chinese, etc
I don’t think it will make much difference if they do hear of it. The famous case of the US billionaire buying London Bridge (thinking it was Tower bridge) even if probably untrue, is known by many, but it never stopped speculators investing in London… Always a case of “caveat emptor” (buyer beware!)
London bridge was indeed bought by US billionaire Robert P. McCulloch (knowing full well that it wasn’t Tower Bridge) and it can now be found in Lake Havasu City, Arizona:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Bridge_%28Lake_Havasu_City%29
(as the article describes – he made an overall profit on the deal)
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I remember that story and him thinking he’d bought Tower Bridge, didn’t do his homework did he? 😆 I think he realised when he got it back to Arizona that it didn’t have a handle in the middle to wind each side up, he said something like ‘well I’ll be screwed’ Maybe Ocean Estates had something to do with the sale 😆
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