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Poll of expats – do you want to go stay or go?
Another thread mentions the Moneycorp poll of expats revealing that 37% of British expats are looking to go home, and a total of 74% considering packing their bags. Then Lenox mentioned a local forum poll in Almeria showing the vast majority planning to stay.
So lets try a poll here. Expats only. In the short to medium term, are you planning to leave, or planning to stay?
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According to this UK is not such a desirable place to return to:-
http://www.il-ireland.com/il/qofl2009/
Spain is even worse. France where I am resident comes out top and I am staying put.
It really is a form of earthly paradise. -
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I don’t mind who posts, just pointing out that the poll isn’t relevant to most. Many of the members of our golf club have left as has friends and friends of friends, others are sitting it out and hoping for better times. A few have withdrawn their properties as they feel they cannot reduce any further.
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@katy wrote:
I don’t mind who posts, just pointing out that the poll isn’t relevant to most. Many of the members of our golf club have left as has friends and friends of friends, others are sitting it out and hoping for better times. A few have withdrawn their properties as they feel they cannot reduce any further.
I agree many have already left Spain in the last 2/3 years.
I like many others were forced to return to the UK due to lack of income.
The major exodus has already happened.Perhaps we should start a poll asking who has left Spain in the last 3 years having lived there permanently.
As far as as I know there are no records kept in Spain or the UK recording these numbers. -
@GJ wrote:
I like many others were forced to return to the UK due to lack of income.
The major exodus has already happened.Hi GJ
Lack of income as you income was in sterling or you could not find work?
I have met many brits who for one reason or another are going back to the UK as they could not succeed (for one reason or another) here in Spain. Fair enough, but why go back to the UK? why not try for somewhere in europe?
By the way I staying in Spain at the moment.
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I think as GJ says the exodus began a few years ago. A Spanish shopkeeper in Coín told me a few years ago that the British were leaving in droves. Used to be like little Britain there!
I think British who will now buy in Spain will be mainly well-heeled retirees as used to be the case. With the unemployment rate in Andalucía standing at 27.1% and expected to continue to rise not many opportunities to earn a decent income.
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I polled that I plan to stay in the short to medium term. But had the questioned asked would I like to leave in the short to medium term I’d have said yes. I stay only because I doubt I could sell my house for a price high enough to buy another one of a decent size in a good location elsewhere. If this ever changes I’ll be outta there quicksticks!
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Well, the Azahar has been very badly hit (thanks in part to that monstrosity in Oropesa), but Peñiscola looks like the nicest place on the coast, at least in my opinion, so it might recover sooner than the rest of Castellón’s coastline. I presume you are living there, rather than a holiday home. Not many expats in that area. Why do you want to leave, if you don’t mind me asking?
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Peniscola is a nice place now a lot of the cranes have gone! We are just out of town and it is not covered in new developments on this side. We live between 3 locations at the moment so are nowhere full time. We had a traumatic time with the purchase and although it was some years ago now I’ve had a problem bonding with it, even though the house is lovely. It has cost a fortune to do the jobs the builder was paid to do and didn’t. I’m fed up of the way the urbanization is run, we have tried to get some changes along with some Spanish owners but the current president is a tyranical lunatic and the place is falling into disrepair. Everything we try to do seems a major task and I have lost all faith and confidence in everything to do with Spain. Sometimes sun, sea and sangria just isn’t enough! We have of course met some very nice Spanish people who have restored some of our faith in human nature but not enough to restore our confidence in Spain as a whole.
I think the development you are referring to is Marina d’Or. It is quite a way from us but you are right it is horrible, looks like a gulag, think it is a bit of a ghost town too. -
Poppyseed
I’m sorry to read of the problems you have had and still have as an ongoing situation. As more honesty comes out, i’m hearing quite a few similar experiences. It seems as much as people love the climate and the Spanish way, and the people in general, there is often a heavy price to pay. The irony to me seems that most people’s idea of Spain is to go somewhere that’s less ”nanny” or ”big brother”, and more laid back, which i’m sure is true, but the stress levels reached when trying to do what we consider straight forward and common sense tasks, goes through the roof because of incompetence or a ‘can’t be bothered’ attitude, or perhaps a lack of punishment for those who get it wrong? I get the feeling that as long as don’t get any problems, then Spain’s great, but as soon as you do, then sorting out almost anything often becomes far harder than it should, so a mental state can end up being far less ‘laid back’
Obviously everyones experience is different, and not living in Spain, i’m only guessing, based on current feedback? -
A poll such as this may be rather inaccurate after all there will be plenty of Brits who may want to go but cannot for financial reasons, their property may not sell, or sell at a loss, then they may be unable to afford to buy in the UK. Some people would not admit to how bad things are if they are house trapped in Spain.
Wishing to leave, and being able to, are two different things!
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Its fair to say urbanizations can be a minefield and the Spanish can be awkward especially when in a role as president! Usually things can be sorted and iots one of the hates I have in an urbanization, the zealots!
Agree Goodstitch, when there are no rpoblems here is Idyllic, but its not always the case!
When I first came here it was more easygoing, seemingly, but reality was the laws and rules were there, just not enforced! The police didnt bother unless there was a complaint and then you had to pull your socks up and sort it out! That meant people did get confused thinking it was easy!
Trouble is, there is red tape everywhere, nowhere is free of it – just try and stay out of the loop!
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I would like to see the law applied equally to all in Spain. It is rare for a foreigner to win a case against a Spaniard. Many foreigners do have to “jump through hoops” when a Spanish person gets by with a nod and a wink because they went to school together. Town Hall staff make up the rules as they go along.
I had a problem once at Marbella ayuntamiento, wanted my Daughter’s IBI bill. The oficio gave me a list of things I needed. My NIE, her NIE and written permission from her faxed over and a form to be completed. As I was leaving another member of staff who I knew well came in. We had a brief conversation and out of the printer came the said IBI bill!
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goodstich44 wrote:katy
Maria on EOS said the same thing. She gave it a name in Spanish that meant ‘buddies’ looking after each other at the expense of right/wrong, the law etc. quote]
enchufismo? Think that’s the one you mean. Be friensds or a relative in the Town Hall, health service etc. is to have an “enchufe”. Sounds a bit like the masons doesn’t it 😆
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mark
so do you think shakeel’s response to Zapatero talks thread is not typical of Spanish opinion on Marta’s talk then?. If not, then that’s good news I feel, and it’s good to hear those you live around are seeing the situation as it is. By a lack of mass action from Spanish people on the demise of their own property industry, that alone corruption, I get the feeling that katy’s take on Spaniards feelings on the whole, towards foreign buyers is sadly true for many, though of course not all as you say. Did Zapatero’s so called ‘roasting’ really mean anything to Spanish people though?, I doubt it somehow?, and if not, isn’t that one of the main problems holding back the much needed change?
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@vilprano wrote:
Yet another thread gone to the dogs.
Yep I second that too.
It is getting boring, and that’s not being “happy clappy” it is just being bored. The same tirade every thread, and Man in Marbella was right, I also think this is a different country sometimes.
Goodtich’s experiences are not typical, far from typical. Doesn’t mean that we don’t understand and have empathy with them, but what now all Spaniards are racist, bigoted, hate all foreigners, think we are a joke and deserve everything we get?
Hello? Certainly not the people I have worked with and known for 20 years, maybe on a couple of forums that Katy is on, but… you have to wonder about forums then, and the people on them perhaps.
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Surely this thread should be dominated by posters that live or have lived in Spain permanently over the past 5 years or so.
I have noticed the poll has only registered 15 votes in total and the thread is being taken over by the usual contributors.
I would like to know from people that live in Spain the reasons they are leaving or staying, good and bad.
Of those staying how much has the mass exodus of Brits effected there Urbinisations, Bars, Restaurants, Golf clubs ect.I left in Decemder 07 because I could not see a future income. Tried employed and self employed options. And yes I was a real estate agent.
I had sold my Villa in Coin 6 months earlier and was living off the money from the sale and renting a small finca until I realised I would soon run out of money.
I made many mistakes during my 5 years on the Costa del Sol and lost and spent an awful amount of money.
If I were to chose where I would prefer to live given the choice it would be Spain. -
And Goodstich YOU NEED NOT REPLY TO MY CONTRIBUTION.
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Hi GJ,
I am staying.
Came here 16 years ago with a young family looking for a better life, not necessarily to make shed loads of money (though I wouldnt have said no!!) but to have the lifestyle that suits us, the ability to go for walks in mostly good weather, low pollution (lived in London, Kent, London, Chesterfield and Hartlepool prior!!)
I wanted my kids to be able to go out and play in the outdoors and have the sort of freedoms I had as a kid and to escape the violence creeping up in the UK ( we had been burgled by our next door neighbours, people on the dole taking the money I was earning around family and commitments!) I had been threatened in my car by a bunch of feral 10 year olds on the high street in broad daylight (trying to get in and take my handbag) and my kids had glass thrown at them by bored teens in the playgound – when my husband told them off, they told him in uncertain terms he could do nothing and they could get the police onto him! This was in the early 90s!
Now, my kids are in Spanish education, daughter is in Seville uni studying biology, son is still in full time education and wants to study engineering.
Financially its been tough and there have been times where I have had 3 differing ‘jobs’ or careers to make ends meet (Im a single mum now and have been for 12 years) and did think about leaving Spain about a year ago – looked at Dubai(!) BUT tied because of the kids! However, Im glad I havent.
When I first came here things were tough for people having to work, but we managed. When the boomtime came, many established businesses found their income diluted (I did in rentals/property management) and either did something else or struggled on.
Now, with so many having gone and the market busier than it was 16 years ago BUT still not huge, personally I find the tide has turned.
Established businesses are picking up clients who would have gone to the big boys who are now no longer there and networking/word of mouth is strongly in evidence.
There are more people still going home, I know of 2, a fashion boutique owner going back as she misses family and grandchildren, and a bar owner going back as they are struggling, in reality this crisis will leave the ones who want to stay with stronger established businesses and perhaps is a good thing.
Just a natural cycle I think – its happened many times before!
For me, what I came here for is still here – my kids have visited the UK and have no intention of moving there.
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Hi Vilprano,
Thanks for that. Here isnt for everyone, but then neither is the UK, France, Italy, USA……..
My view (from my father) is life is too short. Ive lost money, been ripped off (by my compatriats) had fun and games with Spanish beaurocracy, jumped through hoops to no avail, but then had them cut corners at other times and got me what I needed!
Nowhere is perfect (cept maybe the Carribbean!) but if you are happy in yourself then where you rest your bones only has to be 75% there!
Hope you enjoy your place – and dont forget my house warming invite!! 😆
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A quick poll of my own (more than the number on here!) of people who I know that have left Spain I would say 80% left for financial reasons. Almost all ex-pats made a living from other ex-pats. They were coming out in droves re-inventing themselves on the flight over. Opening up estate agents/property management businesses. Others became “experts” in property refurbishment although their only experience was fitting a B&Q kitchen in their UK semi. When sales ground to a halt with the knock on effect. Then people on small pensions started to feel the pinch with rising prices and then the crash of sterling.
The ones I know who did not leave for the above reasons have not all gone back to the UK. One to Florida, one to Dubai and one to S.Africa. One friend who has returned to the UK have left 3 properties in Spain and have only been able to rent out one. They just didn’t like it anymore.
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I agree katy that most of those Brits I know who have left Spain, did so because of financial reasons and lost a lot of money on their sales too.
When people buy in Spain they don’t always realise that transaction costs cause them to often have a loss when they sell. If they pay 5-7.5% comm to an agent like Viva, then 11% completion costs etc it means 16-20% has been added to the valuation of the property already, a huge amount to make up in future!!! Meanwhile that agent has made big money again as well as the Spanish Gov’t, Not the Buyer!! 😥
Spain’s big property con in the sun 8)
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@angie wrote:
I agree katy that most of those Brits I know who have left Spain, did so because of financial reasons and lost a lot of money on their sales too.
When people buy in Spain they don’t always realise that transaction costs cause them to often have a loss when they sell. If they pay 5-7.5% comm to an agent like Viva, then 11% completion costs etc it means 16-20% has been added to the valuation of the property already, a huge amount to make up in future!!! Meanwhile that agent has made big money again as well as the Spanish Gov’t, Not the Buyer!! 😥
Spain’s big property con in the sun 8)
OK Angie, you got me, finally you got me riled, here we go, off you go once again, trolling on about something which you know nothing about.
Most Brits who have left Spain have lost money on their properties – is absolute rubbish, there I have probably been rude, but to hell with it, here you go hijacking another thread with virtually the exact same paragraph you must have repeated hundreds of times.
Some people Angie, if they bought in lets call it the “Unfortunate Window” between say 2005 – 2007 may have been caught at the top of the market and may not be able to sell for the same price today, but lo and behold they get an exceptional benefit in the exchange rate to offset those losses.
Most everyone who bought before or during the main boom years before 2005 are actually just fine when it comes to selling.
I am sorry for anyone who bought at top of the market, i know exactly what it is like, I did it on the stock market one week before 9/11 and it was four years before I got out with what I put in.
I didn’t whinge about it for 4 years, I didn’t parade up and down ranting about how Lloyds Bank were earning a commissin from me, I didn’t endlessly tell the story.
And let me ask you, did you ever buy a property in Spain? What the hell do you actually know about it other than your involvement in this forum?
And please refrain from talking about agents and naming them as if they have something to apologise or be shamed about.
And you know nothing about BIG MONEY I don’t whinge on constantly about lost money, nobody in real estate has made any money in 3 years at least, for goodness sake, you want to talk as if the market is dead in the water yet people are making BIG MONEY.
That is foolish, you are foolish I think, and boring, big money my big fat backside, what do you equate to costs, what do you even know about costs? Or about the relative service?
Have you ever sold a property on the Costa del Sol, Katy has often referred to the fact that she has, and was very happy with the service and paying a commission of 7%.
Just drop you endless tirade about agents for goodness sake.
Or akin to your final line:
Why do some posters drone on continuously.
Or do you do it to get a rise out of people, cos congratulations you did it today.
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@goodstich44 wrote:
Chris
why on earth take that attitude?, we are just talking different points of view, which is what we need isn’t it?.
Goodstich, am sorry, I like you well enough, I think you have your place on the forum, as much in fact more than anyone.
But its your constant references to mass action, corruption, need to recognise change, everybody’s got to unite, everyone has to stand up to, etc etc.
Why does every thread you are on, just end up with you turning it into this huge Anti Spain thing, and its laws and desperate dangers. You didn’t exactly say that this time, but by the lord I know its coming, as the sun rises so do your posts appear on virtually every thread saying the same thing.
It might have been true for you, and I think it has to do with timing for you being so unlucky as it happens, I know lots of people including myself who have had satisfaction through the Spanish system but ohhh goodness between you and Angie just bringing up the same point time and time again it is just killing this forum, which is probably why only 15 people have voted, but look how they voted.
Again, I am sorry, you can say and post what you like and I defend that, but take it from me, its boring now.
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@goodstich44 wrote:
most people’s idea of Spain is to go somewhere that’s less ”nanny” or ”big brother”, and more laid back
And as the saying goes, you get what you pay for. Less “Nanny”, less “Big Brother” more “Laid Back” = Weaker legislation, weaker law enforcemnet, corruption, etc.
The choice is yours. If you do go for the “(less ”nanny” or ”big brother”, and more laid back)” just make sure you know the laws, have the funds and speak the language 😉 😉 -
It seems that every thread ends up with those who want to talk about corruption etc (the troublemakers) and those that want to discuss how everything is OK (the appeasers). I’m paraphrasing a bit, but there you go. There are the two sides to the property issue in Spain. Those that want to rock the boat and those who want to go sailing.
Since this is a property related forum, these two opinions are always appearing, regardless of topic.
Oddly, in ‘normal’ general-about-Spain forums, if anything to do with property comes up as a thread, the two sides, troublemakers and appeasers are immediately out in force throwing rocks at each other.
Me? Troublemaker! -
@Chris McCarthy wrote:
Some people Angie, if they bought in lets call it the “Unfortunate Window” between say 2005 – 2007 may have been caught at the top of the market and may not be able to sell for the same price today, but lo and behold they get an exceptional benefit in the exchange rate to offset those losses.
Chris, wouldn’t they have to sell, in general, to people who are disadvantaged because of that exceptional benefit in the exchange rate?
@Chris McCarthy wrote:
I am sorry for anyone who bought at top of the market, i know exactly what it is like, I did it on the stock market one week before 9/11 and it was four years before I got out with what I put in.
I didn’t whinge about it for 4 years, I didn’t parade up and down ranting about how Lloyds Bank were earning a commissin from me, I didn’t endlessly tell the story.
Were you leveraged? Most people who bought in Spain cannot just shrug their shoulders and accept the loss, they have to repay a loan.
@Chris McCarthy wrote:
And please refrain from talking about agents and naming them as if they have something to apologise or be shamed about.
Did you personally ever use the phrase “good investment”? Once or twice? More? Were you aware that many of your clients thought of their purchase as a sound investment? Did you ever consider the property market to be volatile and knowing the type of person typically buying did you ever consider that they might become disalusioned should prices drop and remain low for a number of years?
Just asking.
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@lenox wrote:
It seems that every thread ends up with those who want to talk about corruption etc (the troublemakers) and those that want to discuss how everything is OK (the appeasers). I’m paraphrasing a bit, but there you go. There are the two sides to the property issue in Spain. Those that want to rock the boat and those who want to go sailing.
Since this is a property related forum, these two opinions are always appearing, regardless of topic.
Oddly, in ‘normal’ general-about-Spain forums, if anything to do with property comes up as a thread, the two sides, troublemakers and appeasers are immediately out in force throwing rocks at each other.
Me? Troublemaker!Still only 15 votes polled
Mark may be right that this forum has lost its way in a similar way to House Price Crash in the UK.
I asaked if day to day living in Spain was better or worse since the exodus of so many Brits.
Only Katy and Inez answered.
I also note that there are no posts from those that have returned to the Uk.It appears that this forum has very few active members and they are either unable or unwilling to post on any topic other than their particular hobby horse.
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Oddly, in ‘normal’ general-about-Spain forums, if anything to do with property comes up as a thread, the two sides, troublemakers and appeasers are immediately out in force throwing rocks at each other.This is true Lenox
Dont both sides realise that you will not win this argument by continuously opposing each other on every thread whatever the topic.
AND YOU ARE ALL SPOILING THIS FORUM!!!!!!Hill Billy and others like you.
Are you still out there or have you all slashed your wrists
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I’m one of those who have a foot in both camps.
I’m very happy with my purchase but am fully aware that it was more by luck than anything else that I didn’t have any problems.
I know I’ve lost money, that’s OK as I didn’t buy as an investment & I have no plans to sell. I don’t have a mortgage & I don’t want to rent. I know that it would be cheaper but I want my own place, my furnishing, my decor & my things. I accept this is costing me.
I don’t know what is going to happen in the future so if I have to sell I will have to take a loss.
I see all around me people who have suffered.
My property is at La Torre on Polaris World (yes I know, it isn’t for everyone & I’ve heard all the comments about PW).
Every time I visit I go past Trampolin Hills, where 2900 buyers, mostly Brits, have been conned out of very large sums of money.
There are 11,000 properties in the Almanzora valley that have been declared illegal, years after they were completed & occupied, because of retrospective laws.
So far, only a few properties have been demolished, but the threat is hanging over thousands of people who did everything that anyone could be expected to do to ensure their property was legal.
Surely there is way on this forum for people to express their views, positive & negative without the personal insults that appear sooner or later.
From a selfish point of view, I know that the problems have affected me, I see the number of properties at La Torre for sale, that will damage me if I want to sell.
I see businesses closing & prices going up.
I’m visiting friends outside Malaga in March & my car hire is double what it cost me last March. Eating out is also going to cost more. This has to damage tourism.
Yet, I still love Spain, I have no plans to live in Spain but I visit as often as I can.
I find the unrestrained postive attidute of some posters as off putting as the unrestrained negative attitudes of others.
Let us have a genuine debate without the destructive comments than will ruin this forum.
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rob6578 said
”I find the unrestrained postive attidute of some posters as off putting as the unrestrained negative attitudes of others.”
rob
indeed this is the case recently. I think everyone understands how sick everyone is of negative posts, but they are the current reality for many, like it or not? Rather than attacking those with a valid opinion, why don’t people ignore the posts they don’t like or reply with reason?.
Sadly, although comments do often stray away from the original thread post, which is what annoys the most I feel, they are very often closely linked with the problems that are the cause of many negative issues. As soon as posts are replied to with personal insults from either side, then reasonable discussion is lost, and the thread is reduced to a nonsense. -
@goodstich44 wrote:
rob6578 said
”I find the unrestrained postive attidute of some posters as off putting as the unrestrained negative attitudes of others.”
rob
indeed this is the case recently. I think everyone understands how sick everyone is of negative posts, but they are the current reality for many, like it or not? Rather than attacking those with a valid opinion, why don’t people ignore the posts they don’t like or reply with reason?.
Sadly, although comments do often stray away from the original thread post, which is what annoys the most I feel, they are very often closely linked with the problems that are the cause of many negative issues. As soon as posts are replied to with personal insults from either side, then reasonable discussion is lost, and the thread is reduced to a nonsense.Goodstich Thanks for your contribution to the thread asking for opinions of posters living permanently in Spain.
I am sure your years of experience of living in Spain will eventually come round to the topic.You may even answer my question as to whether day to day living in Spain is better or worse since so many Brits have left.
I for one will no longer respond to your threads and if others do the same we may be able to keep on topic more often.
I notice many posters on Eye are saying the same thing about you on a similar thread on their forum.From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]
You are the off topic KING OF THE TROLLS on both forums.
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What a tirade Chris! 🙄 Of course you’ve been affected by the truths that have come out. 😉
Your dates are wrong saying between 2005/7, many people bought at the top going back before then, more like 2001 when the so called big 3 were selling like no tomorrow with all kinds of false promises. Even some of Viva’s own staff who’d been with them a while like the 2 guys who took over your old offices at Alhaurin Golf have plenty to say, including Viva not paying them commissions. You can call them, and others liars if you wish, but listening to them is clearly not sour grapes, it’s factual!
Of course I bought in CDS, near Elviria in fact and more than one property sold to me but all sold on lies perpetuated by one of your competitors so yes I do know what I’m talking about.
Are you now disputing the costs I mentioned because if so you are misleading people again? BTW when people come to resell they need their property to have risen by 25% + just to recoup their outlay (your selling comm added now), and of course once the exchange rate flips the property will have to rise 55% or more. If you like, I’ll post a likely scenario of how it could be unwise buying in Spain now with true costs shown.
IMO I wouldn’t advise people to buy from so called largest agents on the CDS because all that gloss has to be paid for with high commissions. I would advise buying from smaller agents who don’t have so many staff changes nor disgruntled staff.
And yes, I could find bargains now in Spain if I wished, but I’d go privately or through a smaller agent not through Corporate gloss.
Anger should be kept under control, in your rage, don’t tell me I haven’t bought there nor that I don’t know what I’m talking about!!! BTW we helped John Arlidge in his CDS expose for the S. Times.
And thank you Goodstich for the support. 😉
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Cheers Goodstich.
Let’s not forget that it was Chris who immediately had a pop at me for posting my view on Marbella and Piers Morgan’s programme.
My opinion was purely based on my current knowledge of Marbella and Banus which were once nice places but now need rejuvenating.
It’s a democracy and we all have our own opinions whether they differ or not, but at least ours are not potentially commercially motivated, just experiences!! 😉
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I don’t think any of us can say Spain has not had problems in regards to corruption that has affect many people lives. It is a terrible shame. And although there is still much to do, I think it is worth pointing out that things are changing. New laws such a decree 218 are a sign of that. Estate agencies, developers now must supply more information or potentially face minor to crippling fines. The LOUA put a hold to a lot of reckless building.
I am not saying everything is perfect here, far from it, but any place that is growing and changing tends to go through a growing pains phase.I don’t think all those who have been adversely affects will be recompensed for their time/worry/etc… but maybe in the future buyers will be better protected.
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Hi Fuengi,
I used to work in Fuengirola up to 2007 when I had to admit defeat and return to the UK.
Most Brits worked in Real Estate, Timeshare, working on property or pools or running the bars.
In your opinion what percentage of these Brits are still hanging on in there.Are other nationalities taking up the slack?
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Fuengi
yes, 218 not before time eh!. I was told my Maria on EOS that a body that represents judges are also to look in to the whole corruption issue, so I think even if individual voices ere still not being heard, the financial implications are starting to hurt enough to bring at least some change?.
As you say, many who lost will never get justice, but heaven knows, the warnings are loud and clear now for new buyers!!
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@GJ wrote:
Hi Fuengi,
I used to work in Fuengirola up to 2007 when I had to admit defeat and return to the UK.
Most Brits worked in Real Estate, Timeshare, working on property or pools or running the bars.
In your opinion what percentage of these Brits are still hanging on in there.Are other nationalities taking up the slack?
In regards to real estate I think there were a lot of brits involved before simply because there were a lot of british buyers. You could sell property here and not speak a word of spanish. That is not the case now. If your not multi-lingual you are severly limited now. For example yesterday I had to deal with several ongoing deals and had to communicate in english, spanish and french with the buyers and vendors.
Timeshare, from the little i know still seems to be quite british.
As a general rule the brits seem to be like all other nationalities. If they learn the language and are willing to work, they tend to last. If they don’t went times get hard, its easier to retreat.
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@goodstich44 wrote:
Fuengi
yes, 218 not before time eh!. I was told my Maria on EOS that a body that represents judges are also to look in to the whole corruption issue, so I think even if individual voices ere still not being heard, the financial implications are starting to hurt enough to bring at least some change?.
As you say, many who lost will never get justice, but heaven knows, the warnings are loud and clear now for new buyers!!
interestingly, i was talking to a vendor yesterday who mentioned a group of about 80 lawyers looking inot hte same and specifically looking at targeting estate agents/runners/etc… The big issue being that many people, (yes even spanish) don’t seem to know their rights and are not using the c’claims and complaints’ books that all business need to have.
We all need to be more proactive in fighting the bad here. Even if it gets tied up in the courts for ages. How else can things improve.
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Fuengi
yes, I’ve been banging on about that point for ages. Unless everyone is proactive in fighting the bad, then why are people suprised to find little and slow improvement?. It seems the only common sense way to me, but I’ve made myself pretty unpopular for driving that point home too often on many related threads.
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“a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]
You are the off topic KING OF THE TROLLS on both forums”What makes forum contributors post such offensive personal comments? They have no value and make no contribution to the discussion in any way, and who would want to read them?
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Wise words fuengi things will improve when people do become more pro-active.
My problem is not with Spain the Country, nor it’s people, weather, food etc I know many really nice Spanish people who are very helpful and welcoming. Even Spaniards have been caught out with property irregularities. Personally I think the overbuild on the Southern Costas spoil the once attractive areas.
Spain’s Gov’t does need to get a grip of their property scams with punitive regulation if necessary.
Many of the old problems were sadly caused by Brits selling to Brits, and this has often caused hardship and bad feelings, a few of these mis-selling agencies have tarred the honest agents.
Mark has said he will post a permanent header as to pitfalls in buying and this is probably the place to post our examples of mis-selling in due course.
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Fuengi the Lawyers were more to blame for what happened than the Estate Agents. The Colegio should be looking at themselves and offering indemnity and striking some off. People should realise that an agent is only for the purpose of introducing clients. Some British who set up shop (not the coast the inland pueblos) would not have been qualified to get a job in Boots, yet they were offering one-stop shops.
If you claim that speaking spanish is a survival through hard times why have many spanish agencies shut their doors too? I know a Finnish/russian/english/spanish speaker and he has been out of work for more than 6 months. Some estate agents are surviving by property management, others working in bars.
Re, decree 218. Do you know if many are abiding by this? A spanish friend/neighbour implemented it immediately but I know of one who doesn’t.
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@Poppyseed wrote:
“a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]
You are the off topic KING OF THE TROLLS on both forums”What makes forum contributors post such offensive personal comments? They have no value and make no contribution to the discussion in any way, and who would want to read them?
Having been on this forum for such a small amount of time I suggest you click on and read all posts by Goodstich before commenting.
Much the same is said about his posts on EOS.
He is right in what he says but he repeats it to distraction and takes every thread off topic if he can. -
Katie,
It seems the effect of the number of Brits leaving the Costa del Sol is worse than I suspected.
Apart from you and Inez there seems to be a denial either based on either commercial reasons or just plain head in the sand.I guess a number of urbinisations have such a problem with delinquent payers that they dont have the funds to maintain them properly
I guess that many bars, restaurants and shops are closed or closing in these hard times.
I dont take any pleasure from this but it is just true.
By the way I agree that many Lawyers were totally implicated in the fraud,
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I have been a member of EOS for a long time and am well aware of the posts on there too and have commented about it on that forum also.
I still fail to see the reason for these personal attacks, if they upset you so much why not just ignore them? I do feel when people have to descend to this sort of juvenille behaviour it says more about them than the person they are abusing and this more than anything spoils the forum for others.
So I will not comment further about this and shall take my own advice and ignore any future comments I find offensive as I do the ones I feel are boring or repetative.
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@Poppyseed wrote:
I have been a member of EOS for a long time and am well aware of the posts on there too and have commented about it on that forum also.
I still fail to see the reason for these personal attacks, if they upset you so much why not just ignore them? I do feel when people have to descend to this sort of juvenille behaviour it says more about them than the person they are abusing and this more than anything spoils the forum for others.
So I will not comment further about this and shall take my own advice and ignore any future comments I find offensive as I do the ones I feel are boring or repetative.
The word troll as used on forums is NO WAY a personal attack.
It is a describing word for a posters actions
I want to discuss the topic of this forum aimed at ex Pats and am getting frustrated at posters hijacking it.
This topic is not about fraud or corruption its about how people that live/lived in Spain have reacted to the hsard times.
I lost everyhting on my return to the UK not only money, but admit some of it if not most of it was my fault
I am back in the UK licking my wounds but I am not a TROLL
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@angie wrote:
Of course I bought in CDS, near Elviria in fact and more than one property sold to me but all sold on lies perpetuated by one of your competitors so yes I do know what I’m talking about.
Am sorry Angie, am afraid you ramble too much for me, you go off at too many tangents really, so I leave one above quoted and will deal with a few of the others.
First of all, your comment about VIVA staff is entirely incorrect and I will be asking Mark to delete it, if you can substantiate this to me by private mail I will be happy to explain if there are two sides to any story or there is some genuine confusion. But I fear you are very wrong, and I think you should stop referring to VIVA at all times, I don’t refer to them unless in a context such as this, and I don’t think it is helpful. In that regard you can’t say that anything is factual, you simply haven’t got a clue as to what is fact or not, why would you? How would you? So stop using a direct reference, it is unhelpful and unfair – you simply do not know enough to comment.
If you bought a property in Elviria, then I apologise and I take back my comment about you not having bought and knowing nothing, I was entirely incorrect. However if you were lied to by a competitor, don’t damn me or mine by association, that is patently not fair, had you been lied to by me or mine I would address the issue, but it hasn’t happened, and you will scarcely find a post on any thread that say that is has, despite my having been inlvolved in the sale of over 11,000 properties being sold. So please take note of that. There have to be some unhappy souls but if they ever complained they would have been handled by myself personally.
There are no action / support groups over disgruntled buyers related to my previous associations, and again, I think you should stop referring to the company, it is not supposed to be allowed, and you use the reference almost always negatively and unfairly, to imply guilt by association is wrong. Very wrong.
When I talked of you trolling on, it was without the knowledge that a Troll is also a reference to people on forums, I will admit to being so on occasion, to trolling on, I think you have to recognise perhaps that you say the same thing so often it is incredibly boring, it is unproductive and when you make comments that are simply not true, except in your own mind, and do so continually, then it is tiresome.
I shouldn’t even bother responding, but I had to apologise about you actually having bought a property and my mistake and I shouldn’t have had a tirade in the first place, I know that, but frankly Angie you talk through your hat most of the time, and saying the same thing every single time, just kills people off really, which is a shame cos some of your stuff on here can be quite good.
You are just not that right all the time, you can’t be, no one can!
This is supposed to be a debate, not a place where you and “wink” Goodstich can continually state the arbitrary end of the world of Spanish Real Estate for all manner of sins… end of story.
That is not what is real.
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@mike wrote:
@Chris McCarthy wrote:
Some people Angie, if they bought in lets call it the “Unfortunate Window” between say 2005 – 2007 may have been caught at the top of the market and may not be able to sell for the same price today, but lo and behold they get an exceptional benefit in the exchange rate to offset those losses.
I don’t have the time to figure out how to split this into boxes and lines so am going to answer in different font colour, sorry for the mess.Chris, wouldn’t they have to sell, in general, to people who are disadvantaged because of that exceptional benefit in the exchange rate?
No, I see where you are coming from, but that assumes the buyer would be English, many Spanish are buying, Germans and others returning, so no is the answer. But if someone English were to be buying who is to say where the rate will be this time next year or five years or more pertinently exactly when they sell.
Now if you are Irish and selling well that’s a different matter.
@Chris McCarthy wrote:
I am sorry for anyone who bought at top of the market, i know exactly what it is like, I did it on the stock market one week before 9/11 and it was four years before I got out with what I put in.
I didn’t whinge about it for 4 years, I didn’t parade up and down ranting about how Lloyds Bank were earning a commissin from me, I didn’t endlessly tell the story.
Were you leveraged? Most people who bought in Spain cannot just shrug their shoulders and accept the loss, they have to repay a loan.
I have never quite understood the meaning of “leveraged” in every context, there seem to be many in which it is often used, I simply had to hold on to my stock, I had no loan to pay no, but jeeze, I know all about shrugging my shoulders and accepting loss elsewhere or having to repay loans. But mostly blamed myself and tried not to moan in the wrong direction.
@Chris McCarthy wrote:And please refrain from talking about agents and naming them as if they have something to apologise or be shamed about.
Did you personally ever use the phrase “good investment”? Once or twice? More? Were you aware that many of your clients thought of their purchase as a sound investment? Did you ever consider the property market to be volatile and knowing the type of person typically buying did you ever consider that they might become disalusioned should prices drop and remain low for a number of years?
Here’s a good one, as it happens I abhorred the use of he phrase “good investment” in the context I think you mean. I complained on at least three occasions to the Advertising Standards Authority in the UK and to each individual national newspaper about the advertisements of 3 separate companies at different times – where investment was used in relation to buying property in Spain, where investment was linked to returns, my position has always been that you can’t sell property on the basis of investment in such a way.
However, did I myself think that purchase, let alone my clients, was a sound investment? An investment in their future and well being? well… yes, I did, and it was, for almost all of them and still is, but am afraid no one here or anywhere truly predicted the global credit crisis, on the scale of this Great Recession, yet, I have seen old clients in the past weeks sell without loss.
I think all property markets, in fact all markets full stop can be volatile and I have been disillusioned about the price of my property in the UK falling and looking like it may stay low for years, I don’t think that is something I should be responsible for really.
Just asking.
Just answering, I think that is the point of a forum, and that’s what I am here for, if someone has a question to try and give a straight answer, and to learn about people’s perspectives and try to understand how to work correctly in the future.
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We plan to stay though in the summer we work wherever our company send us in Spain, Italy or France. We have noticed in our small apartment complex that many of the owners aren’t here this winter and several are now rented out longer term, mainly to Spanish families/couples.
Our next door neighbour is Spanish and says work is difficult to find and his company (fitting aircon) has little new work and little maintenance work. Our Spanish neighbour downstairs is a musician in Benidorm and is now only working 1/2 evenings a week and has great difficulty getting paid for the work he did before Christmas – this includes public funded performances!
So far, there are no defaulters on community fees (ours are very low) but there are several properties for sale with no viewings in the last year!
We have had to cut back as we are paid in sterling so the exchange rate has obviously affected us, we earn less than 2 years ago.
What I really can’t get my head around is the continued building in some areas, Murcia springs to mind with plans to build yet more golf courses and apartments etc?
We are a little inland but the area has suffered from overdevelopment, I include the apartment complex we live in, the village is quite probably ruined in appearance.
Who knows how long we will be here, I don’t have a crystal ball to see how the future will be e.g. our health, family commitments or plain deciding we want a change. People move all the time in UK and elsewhere too, albeit usually within the same country.
As someone said to me when we first came here, nowhere is paradise, its true and I miss family in UK, saturday shopping with my friends and even my previous career sometimes.
We didn’t buy as an investment and don’t rent out when we are away in the summer but if the property climate reversed and we COULD make money by selling then maybe we would, human nature I guess! -
@rt21 wrote:
I do not wish to live in Spain but am very happy to visit my property as often as I can
For a salary of 80% of what I get now I would move to Spain tomorrow.
For the actual 50% of what I would get in Spain, I would never move. -
http://www.diariosur.es/20100131/economia/dinero-empleo/negocio-golf-bunker-201001311803.html
I mentioned on another thread that numbers of visiting golfers had been dropping for some years. The above report confirms this. Bit short on accurate figures but that’s nothing new.
The Golf federation just don’t get it though, along with the tourist authorities and constructors. THE ARE NEVER TO BLAME! All cite the fall of sterling the economic situation. Golfers were staying away long before these problems. Anyone who has read the freebie mag “Golf News” will have seen letters from UK golfing societies stating that they won’t return and they have been appearing for a few years. They blame rip-off golf fees, restaurant prices and arrogant treatment from some of the courses they patronised.
I said when the credit crunch started that Spain would re-write history and blame everything on the banks etc. Yet everything was going downhill before that. Now they are putting their hopes in the Germans returning, the Chinese coming ya ya. Not according to the Germans I know, however I suppose I know the wrong kind of Germans 😆
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@katy wrote:
http://www.diariosur.es/20100131/economia/dinero-empleo/negocio-golf-bunker-201001311803.html
I mentioned on another thread that numbers of visiting golfers had been dropping for some years. The above report confirms this. Bit short on accurate figures but that’s nothing new.
The Golf federation just don’t get it though, along with the tourist authorities and constructors. THE ARE NEVER TO BLAME! All cite the fall of sterling the economic situation. Golfers were staying away long before these problems. Anyone who has read the freebie mag “Golf News” will have seen letters from UK golfing societies stating that they won’t return and they have been appearing for a few years. They blame rip-off golf fees, restaurant prices and arrogant treatment from some of the courses they patronised.
I said when the credit crunch started that Spain would re-write history and blame everything on the banks etc. Yet everything was going downhill before that. Now they are putting their hopes in the Germans returning, the Chinese coming ya ya. Not according to the Germans I know, however I suppose I know the wrong kind of Germans 😆
This was supposed to be a new thread, sorry, must have hit the wrong button 😳
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Anyone prepared to work hard will survive here (as they will anywhere)- I dont speak spanish or deal with the spanish particularly, but have survived with 2 kids and no money behind me ( or maintenance or kids maintenance or government benefits…..no earn, we starve!) How – by working bloody hard!
Work hard, be prepared to and you will survive anywhere!
I agree with Goodstitch, although it irritates me reading and re-reading the similar posts. People should be made aware that in good faith and doing correctly they can lose money and part of their lives!
THIS IS NOT THE UK!!!!!
Spain is wonderful, but is IS raw and untamed and buyer/settler/immigrant(like me) beware!
I love the freedom and lifestyle, that keeps me here – for now! My son is 18 in April and then Im free, maybe I will travel but in all honesty I dont know where I could combine all that Spain has to offer. I do wish it were a few years ago as now it is (very slowly) coming into line wih the EU and before, well a smile would get you so far!!! I do miss those days!
I still love Spain, alwyas will do – its where I feel it is Home!
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@katy wrote:
Fuengi the Lawyers were more to blame for what happened than the Estate Agents. The Colegio should be looking at themselves and offering indemnity and striking some off. People should realise that an agent is only for the purpose of introducing clients. Some British who set up shop (not the coast the inland pueblos) would not have been qualified to get a job in Boots, yet they were offering one-stop shops.
I don’t disagree. I was just refering to one group of lawyers that are specificly targeting this aspect.
Not too long ago I mentioned to lawyer why they are not cleaning up their image in regards to this. Their answer? No lawyer wishes to bring a case against another lawyer for malpractices as they would get a ‘reputaiton’ amongst other lawyers and could have trouble doing business.
Now I’m not saying this is the case, but this was her answer to me anyway.@katy wrote:
If you claim that speaking spanish is a survival through hard times why have many spanish agencies shut their doors too? I know a Finnish/russian/english/spanish speaker and he has been out of work for more than 6 months. Some estate agents are surviving by property management, others working in bars.
I don’t claim speaking spanish will lead to survival. But not speaking spanish is going to make your life harder, and make your market substantially smaller, in general anyway.
About your friend (?) I have no idea why he can’t find the job he wants. Not my place to guess.@katy wrote:
Re, decree 218. Do you know if many are abiding by this? A spanish friend/neighbour implemented it immediately but I know of one who doesn’t.
Some are some are not.
All i know is that I know of 2 agencies have been fined due to not having everything in order. -
@Inez wrote:
Work hard, be prepared to and you will survive anywhere!
ever go through the scenario where, when talking to friend abroad, they assume we have an easy life and must be on a ‘constant holiday’?
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@Inez wrote:
More rain on wednesday I hear!! 😡
as long as my plants get water and the reservoirs get filled I can live with it.
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Chris, I don’t recall you referencing me as ‘trolling on’ maybe mixed up there.
Read my previous post, no reference to Viva at all, however an earlier one did mention the 2 ex Viva guys at the Alhaurin round-a-bout, I didn’t dream the conversations up, so having wrked fo you sometime why would they say what they said?
Yes, I do want Spanish property mis-selling stopped as well as more transparancy with commissions. Yes, I do want to warn people that transaction costs including some agents’ commissions make buying in Spain a potentially loss making business if the buyer later wishes to return to UK and finds the exchange rate has flipped back.
Risking repeating myself, if someone buys a property that has a built in comm. of 5-7.5% or more then adds 11% completion costs surely you understand that this can’t be for the short term if the person wishes to regain their outlay. Inez for example charges 2.5% comm. quite a difference on a large outlay.
And for a man who not so long ago was leaving the Forum you said, you’re back with a bang and like me you can’t haf ramble too 😉
The wink is at you 😉
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It is not always the agents with the lowest commission who have the lowest prices on their lists, some buyers are greedy too and ask the same price whether selling privately or with an agent.
Some Agents charge upfront money so if they don’t make any sales they have a basic income to keep them ticking over so comparisons are difficult.
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@angie wrote:
Chris, I don’t recall you referencing me as ‘trolling on’ maybe mixed up there.
Read my previous post, no reference to Viva at all, however an earlier one did mention the 2 ex Viva guys at the Alhaurin round-a-bout, I didn’t dream the conversations up, so having wrked fo you sometime why would they say what they said?
Yes, I do want Spanish property mis-selling stopped as well as more transparancy with commissions. Yes, I do want to warn people that transaction costs including some agents’ commissions make buying in Spain a potentially loss making business if the buyer later wishes to return to UK and finds the exchange rate has flipped back.
Risking repeating myself, if someone buys a property that has a built in comm. of 5-7.5% or more then adds 11% completion costs surely you understand that this can’t be for the short term if the person wishes to regain their outlay. Inez for example charges 2.5% comm. quite a difference on a large outlay.
And for a man who not so long ago was leaving the Forum you said, you’re back with a bang and like me you can’t haf ramble too 😉
The wink is at you 😉
On the first issue, one should not necessarily believe everything you hear, and if you are going to repeat it, best be sure it is correct, I would hardly be here Angie openly available and discussing issues on the forum, these past four years, if I had done one half the things you perhaps assume me to have done. I wouldn’t have lasted five minutes, if you want to tell me what you have heard privately, I will answer you privately and I believe to your satisfaction. Otherwise I suggest you drop the subject entirely, I have never dodged any question on this forum but some are private I feel.
I take the wink in good order, thank you for that, and you are right, I was off and correct I came back to ramble on like a good one for sure, perhaps you and I both just can’t help ourselves hey! But at least we are passionate about our position. It is just also that I thought recently the subject matters had changed and I could contribute something else.
I know you want transparency, and I know you have concerns about agency commissions, and I think I have explained in the past that the reality for the local agent is often around 2-3% received after clients have been acquired through external introduction sources. So don’t assume because someone charges 5% that this is what they themselves receive.
I don’t know how many properties either that Inez sells in a month, but if you are representing Vendors which is the first job of an agent, and THEY are actually paying the bill not the Buyer, and you want to bring an increased volume of sales, then you have to market these and that doesn’t come cheap if it is to be done correctly, and I would venture that as admirable as Inez’s business might be, it is probably far less than in volume terms than those to whom you often refer. Everyone has their place and part to play in this market.
Now as to the Buyer, he has to find the right property, under your preferred scenario this would be best achieved using a small agent, however if that agent has only what… a dozen genuine self listed properties, and the buyer wants to research or visit more, what does he do? Go to 50 small agents? Perhaps if he has the time, or perhaps he goes to an agent that literally has 500 properties of a particular type across a much wider area.
Either way, the Buyer has benefits from both small or large agent, if they are in a position to help him negotiate with the Vendor, and I would venture that over the past years, people who have bought through myself have had some outstanding buys, and would have more than saved themselves far more than any commission than the Vendor pays in total.
You can take it whichever way you like, remember I also said that it was not I who lied to you when you bought, so… imagine just for a minute that perhaps I know my stuff, imagine you are buying tomorrow, and you have seen a property with another agent – small or large – and it seems like the best possible buy, and perhaps it is genuinely the best buy that agent has or knows of, but then imagine… I introduce you to something else, a better property, a better location and a price some 25% lower than you were thinking of spending…
Where are you better off Angie, buying through the other agent who is charging 2.5% to his vendor or through me? Why would you even care what the Vendor is paying, or I am making, isn’t my service and delivery far more important. Isn’t it that you get absolutely the best property at the best price. That you shop around and understand for yourself what is truly available?
So, shop around, for instance Fuengi is an agent, and as I understand it a good one by all accounts, now I bet you a pound to a penny, if I am selling in or around Fuengirola and have limited listings there, then I am pretty sure he will have something else for you to also see, and will be very competitive about finding you the right buy, and might well blow me and what ever I offer right out of the water. This too can happen, should happen otherwise there is no point to agents at all.
So, what is important is buying the right property at the right price, and not what you percieve or don’t percieve someone is or isn’t making out of the scenario, and again, when you come to sell, I bet it would be the likes of me, who I think even you would agree actually spends your fee in earnest to market to clients, rather than the small agent who just has a small locale in the back of a market, and spends nothing other than his monthly rent.
True or not? Worse still, you could be buying through an agent that doesn’t even have an office, just a website that they operate from their back bedroom, but has an image that they are far more than they are. And who when you likely come to sell won’t be found for love nor money.
I am not your enemy Angie, and not everything is as cut and dried as it seems no?
As to the other purchase costs, again, anyone buying has forever had to take into account the overall cost including notary and transfer taxes, on the way in and out, so people should always think in gross terms yes.
That is just the way that it is. And given everything that has happened in the market these past pre boom, boom, post boom and crash years, there are still many opportunities out there, perhaps more now than ever before. Funny though, that people like Inez and Fuengi to be fair, have also been here in good weather and foul, they have their old clients and new to take care of, and are here to be shot at also.
I think thefore you should judge an agent against both another agent or two, or three, or against what you feel you might even be able to achieve by purchase directly through a private vendor sale or developer perhaps.
But don’t continue to berate everyone with the fact that to your mind that all agents lie continuously or are out for every last drop of blood they can squeeze, most of those people are for now gone and out of business, lets hope they don’t return, but cut some slack here and understand we got the message it doesn’t have to come up on every thread.
Now how was that for a ramble…! And hopefully I have been able to add a wink 😉
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@Chris McCarthy wrote:
No, I see where you are coming from, but that assumes the buyer would be English, many Spanish are buying, Germans and others returning, so no is the answer. But if someone English were to be buying who is to say where the rate will be this time next year or five years or more pertinently exactly when they sell.
Now if you are Irish and selling well that’s a different matter.
I think we can agree that the British were a significant percentage of buyers and, from memory, I think they made up 40% of the buyers in certain areas. I don’t believe that buyers from Spain and other countries will be able to take up that slack.
We don’t know what the exchange rate will be next year but until it is €1.40 to the pound then even at current prices Spanish property won’t really be a bargain to the British, will it?
@Chris McCarthy wrote:
I have never quite understood the meaning of “leveraged” in every context, there seem to be many in which it is often used, I simply had to hold on to my stock, I had no loan to pay no, but jeeze, I know all about shrugging my shoulders and accepting loss elsewhere or having to repay loans. But mostly blamed myself and tried not to moan in the wrong direction.
[/color]I mean leveraging as borrowing to buy an asset. The loan is real, the value of the property is an opinion. When you owe money against an asset and the opinion of its value falls then you are still repaying the loan. In many cases it will mean that people are trapped. It’s far more serious than simply accepting a loss, especially on a large investment like property.
I agree that people should recognise and accept their responsibility in the matter.
@Chris McCarthy wrote:
Here’s a good one, as it happens I abhorred the use of he phrase “good investment” in the context I think you mean. I complained on at least three occasions to the Advertising Standards Authority in the UK and to each individual national newspaper about the advertisements of 3 separate companies at different times – where investment was used in relation to buying property in Spain, where investment was linked to returns, my position has always been that you can’t sell property on the basis of investment in such a way.
However, did I myself think that purchase, let alone my clients, was a sound investment? An investment in their future and well being? well… yes, I did, and it was, for almost all of them and still is, but am afraid no one here or anywhere truly predicted the global credit crisis, on the scale of this Great Recession, yet, I have seen old clients in the past weeks sell without loss.
I think all property markets, in fact all markets full stop can be volatile and I have been disillusioned about the price of my property in the UK falling and looking like it may stay low for years, I don’t think that is something I should be responsible for really.
Fair enough, Chris. Whilst you never made such claims, and even took action against them, you are aware that some companies were irresponsible and the practise did exist widely. Now, the people who believed the hype must accept their responsibility but surely as a professional you must be aware of the damge done by some of your fellow professionals and regret the damage it has done to the reputation of your industry.
Given the scale of the problem and the trust that was placed in these “rogue” companies and those that jumped on their bandwagon surely you would expect these naive people to be outraged and to have a need to vent their anger. That’s why I think that whilst shrugging the shoulders and accepting the loss is admirable, you probably shouldn’t expect the same reaction from a naive investor and could maybe show a little more empathy?
@Chris McCarthy wrote:
Just answering, I think that is the point of a forum, and that’s what I am here for, if someone has a question to try and give a straight answer, and to learn about people’s perspectives and try to understand how to work correctly in the future.
Thanks
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“Now as to the Buyer, he has to find the right property, under your preferred scenario this would be best achieved using a small agent, however if that agent has only what… a dozen genuine self listed properties, and the buyer wants to research or visit more, what does he do? Go to 50 small agents? Perhaps if he has the time, or perhaps he goes to an agent that literally has 500 properties of a particular type across a much wider area”.
Here where I live the Spanish agents charge 3% or less. You will never run out of properties to view as they work together. If you can’t find what you want with your agent he then rings another and another and you can keep viewing for weeks.I went out with 6 or 7 different agents but all with my original one. They just split the commission.
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Chris I think you made some good points in that (lengthy 😉 ) post. Why is it the large agencies take the flak. A lot of the smaller ones have disappeared without trace and as he says probably working by the kitchen sink. Does this make them somehow reliable ❓ Ever seen the pop-up ads on this and other sites…who are they? ever seen any presence of them on the CDS? They all seem to be advertising marbella bank repos etc!
To think that an agents commission has any bearing on the whole crisis is not correct. Take a look at some of the private sales…note any difference, I don’t, some are even more unrealistic. So one tells you this is a good investment….sure, can’t you work it out for yourself. Another tells you this is overlooking green belt…right, do you take them at their word. Never trusted an agent in any country. They do their job and I do mine
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I’ve never said you mis-sold the properties I bought Chris, a competitor did which you know well. I don’t berate everyone either but mainly the system, and I do believe smaller agents have had a hard time because of bad Press with some larger agents.
Just a couple of points though, maybe you should quash those who once worked for you if they’re lying.
Also, your agency claims to be the largest on the Coast and has the biggest and best property magazine both of which must incur huge costs, but you later said that Viva were hanging on by ‘the skin of their teeth’ and mentioned you’d not made any money for 3 years. If the latter comments are correct (not disputing them) presumably you are both holding and still taking reservation deposits etc. Are these protected for clients if the agency did go under?
It’s not just me asking the questions of you as a property professional with years on the Coast, but also Rob, Mike, Man in Marbella etc who have asked valid questions too.
I also realise that you are changing things for the better now but these old years can’t be erased from those who suffered gross mis-selling. 😉
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2 articles from the Olive Press. about some agents/developers a few of you here might recognise
http://www.theolivepress.es/2007/11/28/%E2%80%9Conly-ghosts-will-live-there%E2%80%9D/
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No it’s not all large agents that take flak, primarily 2 which as a regular you should know about and they’ve gone out of business now and this dates back to the boom days. They did grab deposits like no tomorrow then, wheeling clients round next to an in house lawyer. If that’s all changed then good.
I asked Chris if there was a problem based on what he said about ‘hanging in by the skin of their teeth’ then how protected would deposits/payments be, nothing sinister, a straight forward question katy.
Gosh! you’re quite right too about the UK, no-one gives a deposit to an agent!!
I’m sure many smaller agents have gone in Spain, I doubt they were all bad though! 😆
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@angie wrote:
presumably you are both holding and still taking reservation deposits etc. Are these protected for clients if the agency did go under?
It’s not just me asking the questions of you as a property professional with years on the Coast, but also Rob, Mike, Man in Marbella etc who have asked valid questions too.
I also realise that you are changing things for the better now but these old years can’t be erased from those who suffered gross mis-selling. 😉
Will get to this but just now very busy!
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Chris, you were going to answer this as you were busy at the time, the bit about ‘how protected clients’ deposits are if your agency did go under due to ‘hanging on by the skin of their teeth’ you said’. This would also apply to agencies in general and I’m sure clients would like to know.
If you’d rather not answer on the forum, you could send pm to me 😉
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Chris, you were going to answer this as you were busy at the time, the bit about ‘how protected clients’ deposits are if your agency did go under due to ‘hanging on by the skin of their teeth’ you said’. This would also apply to agencies in general and I’m sure clients would like to know.
If you’d rather not answer on the forum, you could send pm to me 😉
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@angie wrote:
Chris, you were going to answer this as you were busy at the time, the bit about ‘how protected clients’ deposits are if your agency did go under due to ‘hanging on by the skin of their teeth’ you said’. This would also apply to agencies in general and I’m sure clients would like to know.
If you’d rather not answer on the forum, you could send pm to me 😉
Just back in a very wet Harrogate, but I have just been forwarded a ten day forecast for Marbella and it is heavy rain for 10 days, so probably better off here, so have the time to reply now yes.
I suppose it depends is the answer, upon a credit card it has always been my understanding that if an agent were to – abscond – go bust – or otherwise, then I believe under various acts, you would be entitled to claim against the credit card company for deposit as, goods or services were never provided, and they did give that agent the facility to take such sums in the first place.
We always operated a “client account” but really, there is no true safety in that per se, as all accounts could be misused or misappropriated in one form or another. I can recall back in the day taking in excess of £750,000 in credit card deposits in one weekend alone, so… yes, some margin for bedevilment there one supposes. But then who is going to sell 140+ properties in one weekend today I wonder? Or even 1 year maybe?
Cash or cheque I don’t think you have any recourse, but then where do you place the deposit?
With your lawyer? Well the vendors lawyer is not going to hold the property on that, if the vendor gets a better offer, he will take the better offer, and you know that happens as often now as before, in fact sometimes more so, when someone has gone to their absolute bottom line there is often another who may go slightly above.
With the vendors lawyer, well how you going to get that back if there is an argument, dispute or misunderstanding really?
And lets face it, if we are worried about someone taking the funds well it could be any of all three above, and four if you pay directly to the vendor.
The thing to do is progress as quickly as possible to the private purchase contract of course, as the reservation deposit could actually be ignored at any stage up until then , though most vendors are satisfied and very happy that the funds are placed.
Our old company went under early in 2008, sadly although we had in advance repaid all the deposits that were due to be returned, I think subsequently two clients decided post collapse to cancel their purchases and seek their deposits back rather than these be recognised as having been received within the purchase and deducted from commission due, and they then had to apply to the administrators, whom would then actually have given them a degree of preference. But that was a most unfortunate experience for them, as we ensured that no client during the time of running the company would not have had their funds protected.
However, yep it can happen, I suppose you have to look at who has the money and their background etc, I have money constantly with JET2 and they are a great little airline, but there was some Edinborough outfit went bust recently with millions of credit card fees paid, so goodness knows really.
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@angie wrote:
Chris, you were going to answer this as you were busy at the time, the bit about ‘how protected clients’ deposits are if your agency did go under due to ‘hanging on by the skin of their teeth’ you said’. This would also apply to agencies in general and I’m sure clients would like to know.
If you’d rather not answer on the forum, you could send pm to me 😉
Just back in a very wet Harrogate, but I have just been forwarded a ten day forecast for Marbella and it is heavy rain for 10 days, so probably better off here, so have the time to reply now yes.
I suppose it depends is the answer, upon a credit card it has always been my understanding that if an agent were to – abscond – go bust – or otherwise, then I believe under various acts, you would be entitled to claim against the credit card company for deposit as, goods or services were never provided, and they did give that agent the facility to take such sums in the first place.
We always operated a “client account” but really, there is no true safety in that per se, as all accounts could be misused or misappropriated in one form or another. I can recall back in the day taking in excess of £750,000 in credit card deposits in one weekend alone, so… yes, some margin for bedevilment there one supposes. But then who is going to sell 140+ properties in one weekend today I wonder? Or even 1 year maybe?
Cash or cheque I don’t think you have any recourse, but then where do you place the deposit?
With your lawyer? Well the vendors lawyer is not going to hold the property on that, if the vendor gets a better offer, he will take the better offer, and you know that happens as often now as before, in fact sometimes more so, when someone has gone to their absolute bottom line there is often another who may go slightly above.
With the vendors lawyer, well how you going to get that back if there is an argument, dispute or misunderstanding really?
And lets face it, if we are worried about someone taking the funds well it could be any of all three above, and four if you pay directly to the vendor.
The thing to do is progress as quickly as possible to the private purchase contract of course, as the reservation deposit could actually be ignored at any stage up until then , though most vendors are satisfied and very happy that the funds are placed.
Our old company went under early in 2008, sadly although we had in advance repaid all the deposits that were due to be returned, I think subsequently two clients decided post collapse to cancel their purchases and seek their deposits back rather than these be recognised as having been received within the purchase and deducted from commission due, and they then had to apply to the administrators, whom would then actually have given them a degree of preference. But that was a most unfortunate experience for them, as we ensured that no client during the time of running the company would not have had their funds protected.
However, yep it can happen, I suppose you have to look at who has the money and their background etc, I have money constantly with JET2 and they are a great little airline, but there was some Edinborough outfit went bust recently with millions of credit card fees paid, so goodness knows really.
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angie
that’s the crunch though isn’t it?, getting something legally watertight. I would only trust a lawyer who I knew I could trust, working on my side of the deal to leave a deposit with. If that wasn’t acceptable I wouldn’t buy.
……..not that I would touch Spain with a bargepole anyway without changes to the hopeless laws on corruption, regulation and justice! Even the recent Haiti scams were tracked back to Malaga!! -
angie
that’s the crunch though isn’t it?, getting something legally watertight. I would only trust a lawyer who I knew I could trust, working on my side of the deal to leave a deposit with. If that wasn’t acceptable I wouldn’t buy.
……..not that I would touch Spain with a bargepole anyway without changes to the hopeless laws on corruption, regulation and justice! Even the recent Haiti scams were tracked back to Malaga!! -
@goodstich44 wrote:
angie
……..not that I would touch Spain with a bargepole anyway without changes to the hopeless laws on corruption, regulation and justice! Even the recent Haiti scams were tracked back to Malaga!!
That is another downside to living in here, aside from property scams many come for a life in the sun and don’t have the money to support it. They range from people running boiler room call centres, down to just being spongers. More than once we have been out to dinner with “friends” who have forgotten their wallet. No such thing as a free lunch is sooo true here. A few times I have been invited to find out that someone is there selling either some crank slimming stuff, bangles that will cure everything and patches that detoxify the body through your big toe 😆 I could write a book 💡
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@goodstich44 wrote:
angie
……..not that I would touch Spain with a bargepole anyway without changes to the hopeless laws on corruption, regulation and justice! Even the recent Haiti scams were tracked back to Malaga!!
That is another downside to living in here, aside from property scams many come for a life in the sun and don’t have the money to support it. They range from people running boiler room call centres, down to just being spongers. More than once we have been out to dinner with “friends” who have forgotten their wallet. No such thing as a free lunch is sooo true here. A few times I have been invited to find out that someone is there selling either some crank slimming stuff, bangles that will cure everything and patches that detoxify the body through your big toe 😆 I could write a book 💡
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@goodstich44 wrote:
angie
that’s the crunch though isn’t it?, getting something legally watertight. I would only trust a lawyer who I knew I could trust, working on my side of the deal to leave a deposit with. If that wasn’t acceptable I wouldn’t buy.
……..not that I would touch Spain with a bargepole anyway without changes to the hopeless laws on corruption, regulation and justice! Even the recent Haiti scams were tracked back to Malaga!!But they were Africans running it.
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@goodstich44 wrote:
angie
that’s the crunch though isn’t it?, getting something legally watertight. I would only trust a lawyer who I knew I could trust, working on my side of the deal to leave a deposit with. If that wasn’t acceptable I wouldn’t buy.
……..not that I would touch Spain with a bargepole anyway without changes to the hopeless laws on corruption, regulation and justice! Even the recent Haiti scams were tracked back to Malaga!!But they were Africans running it.
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Absolutely Goodstich. It would do some people good if they remembered it’s only thanks to those determined people who will not let these abuses be forgotten that change and reform is slowly taking place and being discussed at high levels, as per the recent example of Marta Andreason confronting Zapertero, that didn’t happen because people kept quiet for fear of intimidation or sarcastic comments did it? No matter how tired some people may feel about these things coming up on open forums, I’m sure they’re not as tired and peed off as the people who have suffered from these abuses.
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Absolutely Goodstich. It would do some people good if they remembered it’s only thanks to those determined people who will not let these abuses be forgotten that change and reform is slowly taking place and being discussed at high levels, as per the recent example of Marta Andreason confronting Zapertero, that didn’t happen because people kept quiet for fear of intimidation or sarcastic comments did it? No matter how tired some people may feel about these things coming up on open forums, I’m sure they’re not as tired and peed off as the people who have suffered from these abuses.
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@Poppyseed wrote:
No matter how tired some people may feel about these things coming up on open forums, I’m sure they’re not as tired and peed off as the people who have suffered from these abuses.
My grandma said there was “a place for everything and everything has its place” so I am sorry, but Goodsitch wants to rail against injustice, criminiality, an horrendously abusive Spanish system, on just about every single thread, I rather think this gets everyone down really.
It has its place, but it just isn’t right to be on absolutely every single thread, it is killing this forum, and am sure you don’t want that either.
Another of my Grannies sayings was “All things in moderation”. I think Goodsitch actually tries not to do it, but he ain’t succeeding and people are leaving as a result is my view.
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@Poppyseed wrote:
No matter how tired some people may feel about these things coming up on open forums, I’m sure they’re not as tired and peed off as the people who have suffered from these abuses.
My grandma said there was “a place for everything and everything has its place” so I am sorry, but Goodsitch wants to rail against injustice, criminiality, an horrendously abusive Spanish system, on just about every single thread, I rather think this gets everyone down really.
It has its place, but it just isn’t right to be on absolutely every single thread, it is killing this forum, and am sure you don’t want that either.
Another of my Grannies sayings was “All things in moderation”. I think Goodsitch actually tries not to do it, but he ain’t succeeding and people are leaving as a result is my view.
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Chris
once again it seems you want to shut me up because I don’t go along with your rosy view.
my reply to Angie was mainly about getting a water tight place for your deposit. So many have been robbed by dodgy agents saying they will ‘hold the money in a safe place’, that there does indeed to be a system which can be trusted as you know well enough.
I believe people will leave if all they read is over positive opinion, thinly disguised as ‘moderation’. When the ‘abusive Spanish system’ as you rightly put it, becomes less abusive, then those of us against it will hopefully be big enough to see that and post accordingly. Until that day, can we at least stay with facts, however ugly? and not insults?
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Chris
once again it seems you want to shut me up because I don’t go along with your rosy view.
my reply to Angie was mainly about getting a water tight place for your deposit. So many have been robbed by dodgy agents saying they will ‘hold the money in a safe place’, that there does indeed to be a system which can be trusted as you know well enough.
I believe people will leave if all they read is over positive opinion, thinly disguised as ‘moderation’. When the ‘abusive Spanish system’ as you rightly put it, becomes less abusive, then those of us against it will hopefully be big enough to see that and post accordingly. Until that day, can we at least stay with facts, however ugly? and not insults?
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I doubt Goodstitch being gagged would change the forum. He was off the forum so long I thought he had been banned. A few of the negatives have stopped posting, what happened…..less posts, less topics. If people don’t post positive then they shouldn’t complain. Frankly I think this stuff about not wanting to post is a myth. Perhaps Mark should have an ignore button like some of the other forums, I know a couple of posters I would like to zap
Anyone read about what is happening to British buyers in Goa 😯 Now theres negative for you.
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I think it’s fair comment by Goodstich regarding ‘how to get a watertight place for deposits in Spain, and also elsewhere abroad’. If this were possible then there would be more confidence to proceed to purchase.
Now, I know of someone who has just bought again in Spain having not listened to advice but they got a seemingly good deal cancelled out by the exchange rate. However, they bought without renting first but they need jobs to survive and despite one of them being fluent in Spanish they haven’t got any work yet, so now their capital is going fast. Next door to them is a similar bargain with owners trying to go back to UK but they now can’t buy in the UK because prices are too high and they can’t sell in Spain.
What a mess it’s all heading to.
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@katy wrote:
I doubt Goodstitch being gagged would change the forum. He was off the forum so long I thought he had been banned.
.Heaven forbid that Goodstich should be banned, I like many of his general posts, it just the descent into then throwing in a paragraph somewhere in every single thread – it seems to me – with a couple of lines of an extreme view or statement that basically tells us Spain is an evil and corrupt place that will never recover until it rights his wrongs.
I don’t paint the place so rosy or stay all upbeat and positive all the time, I do have a long, long, long statement here or there about the upside to counter an argument, but I try to keep it on thread and appropriate. and hopefully not to often, I even get bored repeating my mantra over again every couple of months.
As it happens I think Goodstich sounds like a “good egg” another one of my Grannies sayings, but oh please save us, from “Spain is just a hellhole” idly tossed in there somewhere on most pages on most threads.
It just gets tiring is what I am saying, and he doesn’t live in Spain, don’t think he ever has, but I made that mistake with Angie so I will have to be careful, but Goodstich’s Spain is not the Spain of a million brits who have bought there. The majority are happy, the legal system has its positives as well as negatives, for every down there are quite a few ups I think, but I don’t toss that in everywhere.
Keep it real Goodstich is my view, and don’t say the same thing on every single thread by throwing in a paragraph denouncing the entire shebang with a few damning words.
OK it is sad that only 24 people to this point have taken part in this POLL which makes you wonder really, but lo and behold the majority are for staying and not leaving, wonder why… we don’t all want to be back in good old blighty then?
And why can’t I use 20 words instead of hundreds to say something!
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@katy wrote:
Anyone read about what is happening to British buyers in Goa 😯 Now theres negative for you.
What happens?
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Chris
first of all, thanks for not just writing my opinion off as ‘ doom monger,’ which is often the case from some of those who tend to post positive. At the same time, I don’t write you off as just another dodgy agent saying anything to try and ‘big up’ the property market. If we can both air opinion without insult or sarcasm, then so much the better.
As for Spain being an ‘evil and corrupt place that will never recover until it rights his wrongs’…….well I do believe that to an extent that is true. Obviously not for all, but for great many people wronged that is the reality, and quite probably the wrongs that are all part of the bigger picture ‘ righted’ will certainly help to lead to a recovery in the industry?. All the bad things that have happened are due the problems we all know about, and need not have happened in a reasonable system.
I really do keep it real. I have no wish to just slag off Spain for the sake of it, but I will always call a spade a spade however good or bad. Quite often I do end up repeating myself, because time and time again the same problems come up again and again, but are presented by new people caught up in the same shite, and untill change are made to improve the system then i’m sure more people will fall foul of the problems despite the many warnings available now.
I am fully aware that there are many people happy with their lot in Spain, and I know I would be a fool to think otherwise, but surely as decent people we should look out for those wronged first, and let those who are happy get on with it, do that. That’s all I ask of Spain’s system, and those who could make changes IF they had the will. When I feel the changes are being made to give those wronged a fair crack, then I will have no reason to criticise the system that’s wronged so many. As for the poll, well i’m sure most would certainly rather stay in Spain otherwise they wouldn’t have bought in the first place, but how many are trapped, and how many are undecided?. That probably explains the small response?.
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Hi Chris,
Have to agree with you re the spain is a hell hole repetitions, I suppose I am what goodstich refers to as a positive poster.
Im afraid that Im a glass is half full type of guy. I always try to see the positive side of things. I have lost 100K on an illegal no build and suffered a lack of commitment from lawyers and agents. However I consider that I am lucky not to have ended up living in an illegal home without the basic necessities. I still have my health and holiday regularly in Spain and despite my bad luck still love the place and the people. In the end I accept that I suffered from a lack of judgement and have learned many valuable lessons as a result.
I consider that overcoming adversity is far easier with a positive outlook on life.
We will shortly complete on a property in Spain and look forward to spending a long and happy retirement. I am lucky enough to have the resources to make this happen.
I support others who have fallen foul of sharp practices but as always will see things in a positive light. -
vilprano
yes, by your own admission, you are lucky not to have ended up living in an illegal home, you have lost a £100,000, and can still afford to buy again. Many were not so lucky on either of those issues, and I don’t think that those responsible for their plight or yours should be forgiven.
I also consider myself lucky, in as much as I didn’t complete on a property that fell way short of contract specification, and is still having community issue problems due to people not paying their share. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone, but I can put it behind me now, as I have a good family life in the UK.
I just can’t just sit back though, without comment and watch more honest people fall foul of a system that often allows those in legal positions to betray trust through lies and deception, because the justice system is often to slow or poor to prevent them from doing so. Many threads come down to the same basic problems of common sense right and wrong in the system in my opinion. I respect your view, and just ask you do the same back.
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Goodstitch
Here you go trolling on again (A description of actions not a personal attack )
He wrote for the umpteenth time
I just can’t just sit back though, without comment and watch more honest people fall foul of a system that often allows those in legal positions to betray trust through lies and deception, because the justice system is often to slow or poor to prevent them from doing so
We all know as he does NO ONE is buying off plan in Spain at the moment so that means the HONEST PEOPLE he goes on about are not there.
Most of the developers like AIFOS are not trading any more.He also writes for the umpteenth time
Many threads come down to the same basic problems of common sense right and wrong in the system in my opinion. I respect your view, and just ask you do the same back.
Goodstich
This is because what ever the thread topic YOU can not resist stealing it or spoiling it.
Please look up troll in the dictionary and then look in the mirror.I said I would not be drawn in any more but I put this down to a lapse and it will not happen again
😯 😀
Edited Too many ands
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Goodstich,
No offence, but I for one would respect your views (make that your one point about the legal system not working properly) a lot more if you didn’t reheat it for so many threads. I started skipping your posts about 3 years ago when it dawned on me that you always say the same thing. I suspect I’m not the only one so perhaps your behaviour is counterproductive.
How’s this for a idea? Strengthen you perfectly valid point by not repeating it ad nauseam. And be as negative as you like, just come up with some new negative things to say.
Mark
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GJ
I am not talking off-plan, that was yesterdays news for most, though by all means not all. Many developments are still not sorted, and as you say nobody would buy off-plan anymore, so many were cheated. There are still many other people cheated through dodgy mayors, dodgy land rights, dodgy build quality, dodgy lawyers and ultimately a dodgy justice system. Do we just accept this and not keep the subject live because we know it happens, and are bored with reading similar problems?, well if that’s what the majority on the forum want then fair enough, and is the reason some of us who have done what we can to improve the lot for those wronged by petition and lots of letter writing, are made to feel pretty unwelcome so we don’t often post anymore. I’m sure you’re glad to hear that.
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mark
when the negatives change then so will I. So often a problem is aired on the forum about a variety of issues, and people pussyfoot around it when in reality it boils down to the same bloody thing, that the system of corruption, regulation and justice is so hopeless that you may as well bang your head against a wall as get a reasonable response from those causing the problems in Spain. Where is the protest?, where is the mass action against the issues that have done so much damage? The mess the industry is in reflects the system, yet still people try and blame recession, the exchange rate, people being naive etc etc, so very little changes for the industry and many of those wronged.
Yes I will shut up now and keep away from the forum as much as possible as I despair at some of the attitudes on here that have no wish to target those really responsible for the rot.
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@Fuengi wrote:
Might I make a suggestion.
I think Goodstich is also in the situation that unless he was to repeatedly bring up his arguments, then they would get lost on this forum and new members would not here his story.
Why not have a stickied thread where Mark can post peoples stories, good and the bad?
Good idea Fuengi, and good to see a “sympathetic”/ understanding post re. Goodstich.
You are right in that if all of the “negative” posters stayed off the forum then newcomers may think everything was rosy in the gardens of Spain and that all of the corruption issues had gone away. Oh! that they had and that thousands of people were not affected daily by this problem.
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@Fuengi wrote:
Might I make a suggestion.
I think Goodstich is also in the situation that unless he was to repeatedly bring up his arguments, then they would get lost on this forum and new members would not here his story.
Why not have a stickied thread where Mark can post peoples stories, good and the bad?
Perhaps goodstitch should set up a forum dedicated to airing peoples personal experiences with the Spanish property scene rather than on a general property forum.
Links can be posted on all forums and only those that want to be swayed by personal views can comiserate with each other.
This site and the majority of posters are concerned with the full property scenario in Spain and has given me and many others Im sure good valid information on a vast range of matters and equipped me with the knowledge and the will to continue to our goal of retiring in Spain.
As a member of an organisation dealing with urban abuse and Spanish property problems I am well aware of the situation in Spain.
The information gathered from this and other sites are far more important to people new to the Spanish property market than peoples personal problems which although are valid as are mine do not on the whole reflect the current property scene in Spain.
But I agree if not a new forum then confine personal problems to the problems thread which would allow the forum to continue without the interjection of an unfortunate and sad tale in every thread. This would imho be far more productive. -
Vilprano you said
‘As a member of an organisation dealing with urban abuse and Spanish property problems I am well aware of the situation in Spain.
The information gathered from this and other sites are far more important to people new to the Spanish property market than peoples personal problems ‘I may be missing something but aren’t urban abuse, Spanish property problems and people’s personal problems one of the same? Every urban abuse and property problem must surely bring someone personal problems????????
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@mark wrote:
Goodstich,
No offence, but I for one would respect your views (make that your one point about the legal system not working properly) a lot more if you didn’t reheat it for so many threads. I started skipping your posts about 3 years ago when it dawned on me that you always say the same thing. I suspect I’m not the only one so perhaps your behaviour is counterproductive.
How’s this for a idea? Strengthen you perfectly valid point by not repeating it ad nauseam. And be as negative as you like, just come up with some new negative things to say.
Mark
I agree with these comments
My main argument is based on the hijacking of threads not related to the legal system in general.
This thread was aimed at the thoughts of ex pats.
There are a number of problems they are currently facingEarning a living in Spain This was my problem
Community Fees Unpaid by many causing real problems
and YES properties on rustic land making them unsaleable
Exchange rate affecting many British pensioners
Bar and restaurant owners how are they making a living
It seems many that rented long term in Spain have already gone which leaves those that bought.
I guess anyone that has a property is stuck for a period of time but some posts re how they feel about things now would be relevant. -
The title of this thread should have given posters the chance to point out why they are staying or going and only a few have said why.
I believe the biggest obstacle to buying/living in Spain is now the exchange rate. Unless your income is in euro not many will be prepared to lose 30% of their UK income just for a life in the sun. Think about it, retiring on a £30,000 pa. pension and you have lost £9000 pa purchasing power as prices are about the same, infact many items are now cheaper in the UK. That £9000 can buy a few holidays!
I would be interested why people are staying. I know some who are staying because they have not alternative but how about the others?
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I voted to stay because I like living in my particular area.
Not overloaded with Brits, have a better social life than when in UK, roads virtually traffic free.. except fiesta time… and more importantly the Spanish people I have met here are very friendly and give their time and assistance freely when needed.
Nowhere is utopia and the for me personally the downsides at the moment are the plunging pound and the fact my property is currently only worth half of what it cost to build. But then I relocated to try a different life style, not investment.
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Melosine
and looking on the positive side, there is a fair chance that your property will increase in value again one day if it’s in a nice location and you afford to stay. It’s the poor sods who for financial reasons have no choice but to hand the keys back (if the banks will let them) who’s life must be hell at the moment.
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@goodstich44 wrote:
It’s the poor sods who for financial reasons have no choice but to hand the keys back (if the banks will let them) who’s life must be hell at the moment.
Well not to belabour the point, but here again (yawn) we have the words “poor sods” and “life must be hell”, you just can’t keep a good man down can you. Is it ever going to end?
But putting that to one side for a moment.
And in what way is this any different than the tens of thousands of people facing repossession of their properties in the UK this year?
I can think of several, actually the Spanish banks, for their own reasons and problems, have been bending over backwards to help anyone and everyone who can’t pay their mortgage this past year, their bendability has been astounding as it happens.
And who’s fault are all the financial reasons? Is that not just the most disastrous world econmic situation in anyone’s lifetime?
I am flying out to Marbella on Monday, I just got the last seat on Jet 2 almost had to go on Sunday and that had only a seat or two left also.
Full plane, people delighted to be going to Spain, probably half full of permanent / part time residents or property owners, not in dire financial straits, looking forward to sunshine, golf course, lunch at the beach, evening promenade and a coffe with cognac in one of the towns.
Back to their homes, and the same all over again the next day.
Perhaps I should mention the sunshine, the happy folk, the stunning sunsets, the mountain backdrop, the ocean, the golf courses, the beach restaurants every single post?
But lets not get taken up with the impression that YET AGAIN it is just awesomely horrific for people in Spain, THAT IS NOT THE TRUTH it is your perception of a truth for a small, very small minority.
And I would rather be facing hardship in Spain and deal with losing my property than the UK any day.
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Goodstich, sorry but I have no grief to spare for those who gamble on anything and lose.
Property like anything else is a gamble and those who over extend themselves to buy, simply on the thought of making easy money, have only themselves to blame.
To lose ones home through the action of others however deserves my total sympathy.
Personally think worldwide property prices are far too high anyway.At the end of the day we can’t take it with us and as most of my generation started without the inheritance handout our kids factor into their excessive spending habits I really don’t care if my property rises in the future or not as long as I have a paid for roof over my head during my lifetime.
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Katy, unfortunately we built our house on a rising market and I wrote assuming I needed to sell now.
Cost per sq.m was astronomical. But we have everything we want. Unfortunately as we all know buyers are not interested in buying someone else’s extravaganzas .
A house here is just blocks and yeso when the bottom falls out of the market.Brit properties I know for sale here are being advertised for less than they were paid for and still apparently are not cheap enough for those seeking a killing in the future yet pro rata are, in my opinion, better value for money than anything than can been bought in UK.
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@Melosine wrote:
Brit properties I know for sale here are being advertised for less than they were paid for and still apparently are not cheap enough for those seeking a killing in the future yet pro rata are, in my opinion, better value for money than anything than can been bought in UK.
I do not think many seek a killing, just realistic market prices.
Too much supply = much lower prices
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My friends are selling a fully legal 250 sq.m build off a tarmaced road
3 beds, 2 baths, fantastic xlarge fully fitted kitchen and enormous lounge/diner. 6 x 12 pool sited on 6,000 sqm landscaped garden for 330 GBP.
Show me something for equal/realistic value in UK.
Even have English weather at the moment for it is not only cold here but hasn’t stopped raining for days 🙄Sorry Mark hope you don’t think this is advertising.Just mentioning it to prove some folk do have realistic prices and to price lower would be suicidal.
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@Melosine wrote:
My friends are selling a fully legal 250 sq.m build off a tarmaced road
3 beds, 2 baths, fantastic xlarge fully fitted kitchen and enormous lounge/diner. 6 x 12 pool sited on 6,000 sqm landscaped garden for 330 GBP.
Show me something for equal/realistic value in UK.
Even have English weather at the moment for it is not only cold here but hasn’t stopped raining for days 🙄Sorry Mark hope you don’t think this is advertising.Just mentioning it to prove some folk do have realistic prices and to price lower would be suicidal.
Sorry Melosine, you cannot compare prices in Murcia with ones in UK…
In UK there (still) exists some decent salaries which allows people to
pay some mortgages or accumulate some deposits. I am not sure if the same is true in Murcia… -
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I am pasting Marks article posted on this forum into this thread.
I believe this situation will become a major problem for ex pats and holiday home owners over the next year or two.
Will it end up with some communities with no maintenance at all ending up with stagnant pools and overgrown gardens. Who would buy or rent on such a community.
I can think of a number of urbanisations in Riviera and Calahonda where this must be starting to happen already.
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@Melosine wrote:
Katy, unfortunately we built our house on a rising market and I wrote assuming I needed to sell now.
Cost per sq.m was astronomical. But we have everything we want. Unfortunately as we all know buyers are not interested in buying someone else’s extravaganzas .
A house here is just blocks and yeso when the bottom falls out of the market.Brit properties I know for sale here are being advertised for less than they were paid for and still apparently are not cheap enough for those seeking a killing in the future yet pro rata are, in my opinion, better value for money than anything than can been bought in UK.
I sold my Villa in 2007 about a year into the downturn on an urbanization called Las Delicias in Coin.
I ended up excepting ( a stupid offer ) of 350000 euros for this property. Paid more than that 2 years earlier without taking into account of the 20000 euros we spent on the garden area.
I don’t know what they are selling for now but would guess below 300000 euros
If your neighbours are in the position I was they will have to bite the bullet if not then they should stay put and enjoy Spain. 😀 -
@GJ wrote:
I am pasting Marks article posted on this forum into this thread.
I believe this situation will become a major problem for ex pats and holiday home owners over the next year or two.
Will it end up with some communities with no maintenance at all ending up with stagnant pools and overgrown gardens. Who would buy or rent on such a community.
I can think of a number of urbanisations in Riviera and Calahonda where this must be starting to happen already.
As I said before, in the complex we stayed in Riviera del Sol, 50% of the owners had not paid their communities fee for periods between 3 and 24 months.
People would still buy but for LAs Vegas condo prices i.e. 10K Euros for a 1 bedroom apt…
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@flosmichael wrote:
@gus-lopez wrote:
Unfortunately Melosine, I can think of 10 equivalent properties some with more beds & b/rooms all around 280k euros and none of them are selling either.All the viewers put in stupid offers.
Sorry to be indiscrete, about how much are the offers?
normally 210-250. But most have them have bought between 250 -280 and then spent on fencing,gates, pool, landscaping,garages,kitchen, a/c, c/h, etc. Most are in for @least another 100. It’s only the ex. rate @moment that will allow them to get out with hardly any loss, IF they are going back.
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Mark, a short while ago you said you would make a permanent heading reagrding ‘Pitfalls of buying in Spain’ and where people could post their experiences or knowledge, maybe extra things to look out for.
I’m sure if you did this, then, what is seen or attacked as repetition on here would not keep being posted. I understand it’s natural for some with a vested interest to oppose these postings but both sides are relevant including the negatives which disappear again and again. As you know, your site loses topics off page and then there’s too much to wade through to retrieve it.
Is this something you’re working on and do you have an approximate timescale? A permanent heading might do the trick 😉
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@angie wrote:
Mark, a short while ago you said you would make a permanent heading reagrding ‘Pitfalls of buying in Spain’ and where people could post their experiences or knowledge, maybe extra things to look out for.
I’m sure if you did this, then, what is seen or attacked as repetition on here would not keep being posted. I understand it’s natural for some with a vested interest to oppose these postings but both sides are relevant including the negatives which disappear again and again. As you know, your site loses topics off page and then there’s too much to wade through to retrieve it.
Is this something you’re working on and do you have an approximate timescale? A permanent heading might do the trick 😉
agreed. although vilprano had a point. maybe it should be stickied in the ‘problem problems’ forum.
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@GJ wrote:
@Melosine wrote:
I sold my Villa in 2007 about a year into the downturn on an urbanization called Las Delicias in Coin.
I ended up excepting ( a stupid offer ) of 350000 euros for this property. Paid more than that 2 years earlier without taking into account of the 20000 euros we spent on the garden area.
I don’t know what they are selling for now but would guess below 300000 euros
If your neighbours are in the position I was they will have to bite the bullet if not then they should stay put and enjoy Spain. 😀I know someone who has recently bought in Las Delicias in Coin, and they paid €360,000 I believe most of the properties there are on the market for 380k – 450k and they are selling as I am aware of a smaller property with just 2 beds that also sold recently for €330k.
So although they have taken a hit – as has everywhere – they have certainly not collapsed under €300k not even gone down to that amount.
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@Chris McCarthy wrote:
@GJ wrote:
@Melosine wrote:
I sold my Villa in 2007 about a year into the downturn on an urbanization called Las Delicias in Coin.
I ended up excepting ( a stupid offer ) of 350000 euros for this property. Paid more than that 2 years earlier without taking into account of the 20000 euros we spent on the garden area.
I don’t know what they are selling for now but would guess below 300000 euros
If your neighbours are in the position I was they will have to bite the bullet if not then they should stay put and enjoy Spain. 😀I know someone who has recently bought in Las Delicias in Coin, and they paid €360,000 I believe most of the properties there are on the market for 380k – 450k and they are selling as I am aware of a smaller property with just 2 beds that also sold recently for €330k.
So although they have taken a hit – as has everywhere – they have certainly not collapsed under €300k not even gone down to that amount.
Chris as everywhere it comes down to location location location.
There are in Almeria good standard villas in once much saught after area overlooking the sea which were on sale at 325K plus which some are now reduced by various stages until the have broken the 200K barrier.
Previously 325 299 235 220 now 199. 950. (offers accepted)
so will eventually sell for a bargain price.
As always the much preferred CDS will attract the vastly reduced no of buyers first.
My advice to someone looking to buy for lifestyle rather than investment would be to widen their horizons.
We will shortly complete on our own “bargain” property. -
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I shall remember the 9th January 2008 for a long time it was the day we packed whatever belonings we could along with our 2 dogs into our brand new Spanish reg piccaso (bad decision what Europe wide warranty) and made the long drive back to the UK 😥 We were fortunate on two counts, firstly we were able to let the house for 5 years to good friends (please no lecture abiut the dangers of long lets) which covers our small mortgage and local taxes 😀 , secondly we took the decision whilst we still had sufficient finance to get back on our feet here 😀
If I had my time again would I have come to Spain, yes in a heartbeat despite many problems including some serious health scares, I can percieve only a handful of benefits living in the Uk, I have endured many of the problems that people report on the forum (ok havnt had an illegal build ripped down) but I am afraid to say that as is normally the case the Brits invite themselves to the party and then complain bitterly and throw their toys out of the pram when things are not done the way they want it to be.
Chris it was suggested that you should be giving financial advice within your agency fees, I’m your man as now fully qualified financial adviser. I also agree that there are a lot of people on this and other forums who have a lot to say about which they know little or nothing.
And just to upset pretty well everyone as most posters here seme Del Sol biased, I have just spent my second spell down there and its still pants, with the exception of Ronda, Benahavis, and Istan.
My motivation in life now is to put my son through his education, save my nuts of and get back to the place my heart is despite its problems and idiosycraties (please feel free to correct spelling) rather than the PC crazy nanny state that the UK has become under this labour Goverment.
Whatever we feel about Spain, the UK or elswhere for that matter we should at least be thankful that we have a choice, or had a choice but it didnt work, out many people have/had no choice in life, strange dont seem to hear them bemoaning their lot
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If I had my time again would I have come to Spain, yes in a heartbeat despite many problems including some serious health scares, I can percieve only a handful of benefits living in the Uk, I have endured many of the problems that people report on the forum (ok havnt had an illegal build ripped down) but I am afraid to say that as is normally the case the Brits invite themselves to the party and then complain bitterly and throw their toys out of the pram when things are not done the way they want it to be.
Candidate for post of the year 2010
S
And I’ve worked out how to do the quote thing again 😆
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