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Hmmm so we are just into the 2nd part of this program and already I am gobsmacked at the mis-information.
Firstly, without being rude…has anyone heard of the two agents on the Costa del Sol? Also WHERE can you get a penthouse for 100k in Marbella as the first featured buyer said.
Here we go again with ITV just as they did with Marbella Belles. Totally exagerated and mis-information
What do you all think.
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OK next advert break.
So it appears someone purchased a property from the UK via a brochure off plan and is now annoyed that values have gone down and his property is worth less than it was when he purchased.
Is this only in Spain?? I don’t think so.
The next people purchased off plan on Costa Blanca and are living in a development not completed. Surely that is actually illegal if the license has not been granted to habitate the development following inspection.
Looking forward to part three to see what other crazy stuff they can come up with.
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phew its finished.
So a couple who in their own words ‘totally stretched themselves with a massive mortgage” and started to struggle when rates went up. Who’s fault is that? The Agent? The Government? Maybe the purchaser?
But hey at least it ended on a fairly positive note about the Brits love affair with Spain.
Wonder what next week will bring?
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“I would love to have really heard what the vendor said when she made the offer “
Its irrelevant what the vendor said or thought. She was perfectly entitled to her offer & so was the seller to not to accept it. That is how the market works and not who said what.
I only wished that more buyers were like her & not swayed by the agents, sunshine, Tinto etc.
Good luck to her. Other prospective buyers should take leaf ……
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Fuengi posted “when it is on 55m2, 2 bed, 1 bath “
This is interesting. In my experience property buyers in UK do not look at the total feet/M2. They look at the no of bedrooms and if they are single or double. In an estate agents lingo if one can place a double bed in a room, it is than a double bedroom.
The only instances that I have seen where the gross area is stated is the case of an off plan purchase and it is stated in square feet.
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Poor chap sweeping s..te from the front of his house, and trying to finish
the rendering etc. I’m sure loads of people like myself felt so sorry for him.
There’s al lot to be said for the simple campo lifestyle and growing your own veggies!! Generally, a badly put together programme though…were people drgged spitting and screaming to take out huge morgages? A reality check,
and staying out of the sun for a bit might have been the better option. -
@Fuengi wrote:
DEAR GOD IN HEAVEN!
How did someone convince a gentleman to buy an ‘investment’ property in an urbanisation i nthe middle of nowhere in Manilva for around the 250 mark when it is on 55m2, 2 bed, 1 bath!!!
During the mania stage of any bubbles the last fools always pay way too much for anything. Remember the pet.com in 1999-2000, there were many who bought at the top and lost lots of money.
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@Fuengi wrote:
DEAR GOD IN HEAVEN!
How did someone convince a gentleman to buy an ‘investment’ property in an urbanisation i nthe middle of nowhere in Manilva for around the 250 mark when it is on 55m2, 2 bed, 1 bath!!!
I do feel for the people on the Costa Blanca who live in elite something or other. 🙁
Do you really believe that…I don’t!
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According to another forum it seems Mandy from Bradford is no stranger to these type of programmes. She was in one a few years ago, Passport to the sun set in Majorca 😯 Her and her Daughter were renting a 1 bedroomed flat, when her Daughter brought a guy home she slept on the balcony. In the day she trawled hotels as a “nail technician” getting tourists to have manicures by the pool. Sounds a bit like an ageing hippy 😆
Had to laugh at last nights end when she loved the peaceful (dump) she was renting, no views and cars passing by all the time.
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Sorry to correct you Katy, but ageing hippy she was
not! As I myself happily belong to that brigade happily digging and
growing veggies,” treading lightly on the land” etc.I can confirm to you that a nail technician who obviously spends her waking hours mainly in concrete jungles aint no hippy!!
A much abused term if I may say so… peace love etc.etc.I know very circa
1966 !! -
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A few items on the bed is a mess?
Did the same production company who made the previous programme that Mandy was on make this one? If so, I smell set-up, with the lady possibly not being an actual potential buyer.
My main problem with the programme was the lack of investigative journalism. Why weren’t the banks, the government and the local councils interviewed? Sure, some people overstretched themselves and made unwise investments, but we can all be experts in hindsight. Surely somebody in “officialdom” (who let the whole boom run way out of control) could have been asked to give an account of themselves.
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Hola Steve6 – was blonde, gone darker now for a change
Thanks Stewlanz, oh that I would sell that much – maybe over a year!!! They filmed 2 auctions, I think the 2nd may be on next week, but I dont know what they are going to put on anyway. The town house Mandy looked at had at the time an offer of 240k, but it didnt go through, the bank revised the buyers offer so it fell through. I have just secured a let to buy on it – price at 170,000 euros! Funnily I have had heavy interest on it since last night with one lady desperate to view it.
Mandy was just there at the auction, I had no idea previously she was via the programme makers and she was a bit scatty. She took that apartment in march so they must have revisited her in april. The apartment was furnished so its the owners stuff in there!
My only complaint was the camera adds at least 3 stones!!! 😆 Luckily Ive lost a few kilos since then…..!
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@shakeel wrote:
This is interesting. In my experience property buyers in UK do not look at the total feet/M2. They look at the no of bedrooms and if they are single or double. In an estate agents lingo if one can place a double bed in a room, it is than a double bedroom.
shakeel you have been hanging around the wrong sort of agents. I’m sure they would describe the property as ‘cosy’ and ‘tranquil’ in an ‘up & coming area’. TRANSLATION: bloody tiny property in the middle of nowhere on sale for way to much because in the future another pillock like yourself will pay more for it.
@flosmichael wrote:
During the mania stage of any bubbles the last fools always pay way too much for anything. Remember the pet.com in 1999-2000, there were many who bought at the top and lost lots of money.
But it was bought as an investment and the agent told him it would increase in value by 50% in a year or 2 (can’t remember). Make money on holiday rentals, etc…
I realise many bought because of this sort of hype. More than likley just because I have never been caught up in the mania, i cannot really understand it!@katy wrote:
Do you really believe that…I don’t!
I would hope the ITV people would have checked the veracity of his story.
@katy wrote:
Mandy looked to have some really brown teeth. Perhaps she will get them done when she sees herself.
I think she had braces.
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@katy wrote:
According to another forum it seems Mandy from Bradford is no stranger to these type of programmes. She was in one a few years ago, Passport to the sun set in Majorca 😯 Her and her Daughter were renting a 1 bedroomed flat, when her Daughter brought a guy home she slept on the balcony. In the day she trawled hotels as a “nail technician” getting tourists to have manicures by the pool. Sounds a bit like an ageing hippy 😆
Had to laugh at last nights end when she loved the peaceful (dump) she was renting, no views and cars passing by all the time.
link please
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She seemed genuine to me and I only met her at the house I showed her. She wants to be careful with her money and really its sensible to rent before finally finding somewhere. I think she was getting calls from other agents about properties to view and had seen a range of units over a wide area which changed her thoughts to what she wanted to do and be from the outset.
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Fuengi, here is the link but you will have to scroll through pages to find it. Hope Mark doesn’t mind (different medium anyway) I think the whole programme has been put into disrepute by this…we are treat as idiots by these sloppy programmes 😈
http://andalucia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=20364
It’s on page 4
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@Stewlanz wrote:
I thought Inez came out of the programme brilliantly – unlike the other “estate agents” who were on there….
I wonder what percentage of the portfolio Inez managed to sell…considering she stood to make 60k out of 40 – 50% of it selling?
I thought Inez did OK to a point, and I know personally how hard it is to get the right point over on TV interviews.
But, at one point Inez sitting there with the port in the backdrop said something like “There are several hundreds of thousands of empty properties here on the coast….” Well at least that was what I thought I heard.
Now in that one sentence or throwaway remark, what would your impression be, and or what would the reality of that be?
The average development built on the CDS has 150 units which would mean what 2,000 developments lying empty and unoccupied?
this is patently not the case, it would be the whole town and area of Marbella being unoccupied.
The last figure I read for unoccupied / unsold units in the whole of the Malaga province was something like 20,000 which is still a lot but far, from 100’s of 1,000’s.
I wonder was the auction staged for the purposes of the TV programme, I was led to believe that has happened before, and I doubt a single property would be sold at any such auction really.
They are not what I understand auctions to be.
But I am not wishing to knock Inez here, as I said it is not easy to get all the right points over when be interviewed.
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You got the remark correct but it was said during a 2 hour interview. And the coast is much larger than just the cds. It also goes inland a lot deeper.
The auction was not staged for the show, they came specifically during that week to film it and the one the following month – I hold them regularly whether film crews or people are there or not.
Whilst only a few people are brave enough to actually buy at the auction, anything good sells way before, and at the moment, any one who knows about auctions will tell you they dont bid high there as they want to get the property at a better price. Which they do in most cases Im thankful to say, otherwise why would I still be doing them after all these years?
And to add oil to the fire, I am pleased I have had way more buyers enquiring than sellers – whether any of them will convert its too early to tell, but it has surprised me in a nice way for a change.
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True Katy and it would be great if I always got that many.
The average is 12 units (last time was 8) x 5 auctions annually.
The fee is 200 euros per lot which once you deduct costs of hosting the auction, printing, advertising, petrol to get to the properties including the many that dont go into auction, time to load them up to the site, phone calls, time and petrol on viewings, costs of calls to the UK and other country mobiles etc isnt leaving a lot to profit from.
Im so glad you pointed that out otherwise people would have thought I am a typical spiv making tons of money in commissions and empty promises.
Point is I do actually host the auctions for which people pay to enter into and it generates a huge amount of interest in the lots that are on the website, giving all of them a unique promotion, instead of being listed amongst thousands of similar units.
If they do not get interest, its likely because the prices are too high at that point in time. All offers and bids get sent to the owners so they themselves can see where the market is for their property.
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oh dear you have to feel sorry for the people in Cambria if they did there homework had good lawyers etc but if they did not i dont!
What really has annoyed me is the attitude at the beginning of the program tha tthe brits will do things there way!!
For goodness sak they are in a diffeent country etc and not to attempt the language oh my blood is boiling!!
But the couple with the bar sorry sounds like they defo left brain on the plane
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Well let’s take it one group at a time.
The people on the Costa Blanca (Little Britain). All I can say is 😯 and 👿
Couple One – Benidorm
So if I took this in correctly one of them used to be a lorry driver and the other worked in a Supermarket. They gave everything up to move to Spain and purchase a bar / cafeteria, which neither of them had ever done before. They didn’t know what end of the keg to stick the pipe, didn’t know how to pull a pint etc etc….why on earth were these people on the show? Why? All that showed is naivety at the highest level. It does not matter what country they did this in. In fact they could have moved to a coastal town in the UK and done the same thing and would still be in the same s**t.The story about the people from Almeria was actally awful and I am glad it was aired. It is one thing the Spanish authorities HAVE to address.
OK Lets move on to the self appointed Queen of Marbella..yup we all know who I am talking about 🙄
So she is doing really well huh?
So why have many of her staff not been paid, suppliers not paid (I had to battle for months), officed closed etc. etc.
Don’t these shows check what they are told and reseach it to check the facts?
Anyway overall it didn’t really attack the property market, it really highlighted lack of business plans and naivety although there were a couple of very good points raised IMHO of course
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tapasqueen:
“if they did there homework “
how can you assume that they did not not.
” had good lawyers etc “
Yes, where do you get a good lawyer, the chances of winning the el gordo is much higher than finding a good lawyer in Spain“if they did not i dont!”
I dont what ?
“What really has annoyed me is the attitude at the beginning of the program tha tthe brits will do things there way!!”
This is a very natural for immigrants to behave in a manner that they are use to or feel comfortable. The immigrants in UK had always been blamed for doing things their way and not integrating etc.
“oh my blood is boiling”
Relax you are in Spain. You have not got it yet. They are not there for the culture. -
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@UBEDA wrote:
Inez is fishing furiously for leads again !! all lures and bait are out in the wide open sea!!
Yeah, Inez is responsible for the state of the market. 🙄 🙄
What about the sharks who fleeced the idiots who left their brains at the airport? What about the crooks elected in power by Spanish people?
Anyway, buying property in Spain (or anywhere abroad) is going to be only in stories to be told to the grand-children.
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Forgive me if I’ve missed it posted by someone else but has anyone seen the article on http://www.freefreefreefree.com?
Paste this into your browser……
http://www.freefreefreefree.com/expat_news5.htm
stevmk2
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@shakeel wrote:
UBEDA: How old are you. I am not a fan of Kristina. However, I will not go down to making a personal remarks about her looks etc.
I agree, Kristin came across as a person with style and sophistication, a self made women who seemed to know her stuff and had made her money through hard work and determination, UBEDA is just being infantile and his comments on here are an outrage.
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@Mary Hinge wrote:
@shakeel wrote:
UBEDA: How old are you. I am not a fan of Kristina. However, I will not go down to making a personal remarks about her looks etc.
I agree, Kristin came across as a person with style and sophistication, a self made women who seemed to know her stuff and had made her money through hard work and determination, UBEDA is just being infantile and his comments on here are an outrage.
But isn’t that what this entire forum has come to, one agent having a go at another, one person having a dig at another. I remember when this forum used to be the source of information with lots if useful advice.
You would’t think that half the people on here are in the same business.
Considering potential buyers might be looking at this forum where is the info on good things happening in Spain.
Don’t forget that people who have a bad experience need to make a noise (rightly so) and tend to post on forums etc. Those satisfied buyers (who far out number the unsatisfied) don’t need to go on forums as they are busy enjoying their purchase
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@pj wrote:
I remember when this forum used to be the source of information with lots if useful advice.
There is little need for advice now. Very, very few buy and they know what they are doing (the naive ones have long made awful “investments”).
Nobody buys off-plan as everybody knows that many builders and banks will go to the wall so there is no gurantee at the moment.So what kind of advice would one need?
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“But isn’t that what this entire forum has come to,”
Yes, we got here some two years ago. Lot of very interesting & professional people use to post. It was very stimulating.
“There is little need for advice now. Very, very few buy and they know what they are doing (the naive ones have long made awful “investments
I feel there is a lot of truth in that statement. The few who buy like
bentdavi, can find a lawyer as they could not be bothered to respond. Is this all self inflicted. -
shakeel
it all looked so positive a few years ago. Lots of money swimming about, and a relative ‘feelgood’ factor that lead to many people thinking ”why not buy a nice place in Spain?” or ” it’s bound to go up in price” or ” you can’t go wrong with property” or ”we can always rent it out to help with the mortgage”…..it all seems so naive now, but looked the thing to do for a while. With proper regulation and less corruption, it could have turned out so much better, and I think activity on the forum would still reflect an active property market?
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“With proper regulation”
Regulations are in theory designed to protect & mostly it does where certain issues slip through the system. lessons are learn & loop holes/failure in the system is closed. All this can be only done where all parties connected to it are professional, dedicated & honourable and work for & towards a better & fairer society. Irrespective of what sector of society you look at.“it could have turned out so much better “
I fully agree with you and if this would have been the case the market could have be steady & many people in UK who have or are taking redundancies may have bought to start a new life. Of Course this is all hypothetical.
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very well put mary hinge.
but all the time you have people like tweedle dee and tweedle dum and there cohorts making there comments, this site has become near on useless.its a very good point that we should look at the good spain has to offer. help each other and do not become negative, with a negative attitude. -
@goodstich44 wrote:
With proper regulation and less corruption, it could have turned out so much better, and I think activity on the forum would still reflect an active property market?
The main reason for the downfall were the high price and the credit crunch.
Now buyers need to count more on their own savings, which are available only for few lucky and smart ones. The market died mostly because of these two aspects. -
@alanrthornton wrote:
very well put mary hinge.
but all the time you have people like tweedle dee and tweedle dum and there cohorts making there comments, this site has become near on useless.its a very good point that we should look at the good spain has to offer. help each other and do not become negative, with a negative attitude.Sorry, I was taking the absolute piss out of her, lets face facts she’s got money, she needs dental work, that said I did quite like the way she came across, she wasn’t stuck up, she was flogging top end dreams and was more than happy to admit it.
Unfortunately the program (Paradise Lost) was total shambles, I don’t see what two people buying a crap greasy spoon has to do with Spain as a whole, that business venture was always going to struggle, recession or not and the hairdresser set up, whats that got to price of fish?, you couldn’t infer anything from that, its plays like a bad(good?) episode of ‘The Office’.
I agree though this site is useless, its no good having a site that is all one way traffic, this site is not in the least bit useful, I wouldn’t read this site if I was considering buying property, its like reading The Sun newspaper for stock market information. Most of the information is worse than useless. I’ve largely completely given up on this section of the forum to be honest, doubt whether most people on here have much to do with Spain.
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Mary Hinge
the site is far from useless, but most of your comments are.
flosmichael
sure the high price and credit crunch has had a major effect, but the writing was on the wall long before either of those two came along. The overbuilds, poor build quality, and poor justice for many cheated, a partly ruined coastline and now a ruined reputation. No, I think unregulated greed, lies and corruption have done the most damage, and the results are plain to see.
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@goodstich44 wrote:
Mary Hinge
the site is far from useless, but most of your comments are.
flosmichael
sure the high price and credit crunch has had a major effect, but the writing was on the wall long before either of those two came along. The overbuilds, poor build quality, and poor justice for many cheated, a partly ruined coastline and now a ruined reputation. No, I think unregulated greed, lies and corruption have done the most damage, and the results are plain to see.
Goodstich, you say the site is not useless then ‘trot out’ the same stuff that people have been saying for years, a complete rehash of every post thats been said for say the last two plus years.
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@goodstich44 wrote:
sure the high price and credit crunch has had a major effect, but the writing was on the wall long before either of those two came along. The overbuilds, poor build quality, and poor justice for many cheated, a partly ruined coastline and now a ruined reputation. No, I think unregulated greed, lies and corruption have done the most damage, and the results are plain to see.
Much more people would be interested if the prices would be 50% lower.
The problems are mostly for people who bought off-plan, for existed building poor build quality would be a good reason to knock off another 20% of the price. -
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see what i mean mary h.
pathetic responces of no reverlance to anything spanish.
most brits say they want real spain, so they uproot leave what brains they have on the plane then go and have half a glass of sangria and a plate of paella then by the end of the first week get on the phone for a sat dish so they can get bbc and itv.its easy to see that the toilet area is from malaga to gib most brits, most trouble, most problems, and they say they want true spain. i,ve seen the mess there that is caused by the brits arriving, and no wonder the locals are laughing. most of these brits have not spoken to any locals, because they cannot speak the lingo. if they just made an attempt they would not only find that there would be less problems but they would actually enjoy spain. instead you only get morose comments, and blame everybody else for there negative issues.not only that we then get issues here on south africa and other places, which is quite remarkable, seeing we are called spi. still keep it up tweedle dee and tweedle dum your comments are almost amusing. -
” I am sure Spain will be content to blame the credit crunch for everything and never learn from it’s mistakes “
Its not part of Spanish psyche. On a molicule level I have seen Spaniards making the same mistake time after time. Their attitude of shrugging the situation which needs thought provocation, reflection and analysis etc is instantly ignored/forgotten with a it the pasa nada” attitude, will not make them learn.
Even people at the tourism offices, sincerely believes that sun only shines in Spain & no other country has a coast line, besides no matter how you treat people they will keep on coming. Do you think they will smell the coffee………………… I dont think so.
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@shakeel wrote:
Its not part of Spanish psyche. On a molicule level I have seen Spaniards making the same mistake time after time. Their attitude of shrugging the situation which needs thought provocation, reflection and analysis etc is instantly ignored/forgotten with a it the pasa nada” attitude, will not make them learn.
that seems to be part of the human psyche.
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@alanrthornton wrote:
see what i mean mary h.
pathetic responces of no reverlance to anything spanish.
most brits say they want real spain, so they uproot leave what brains they have on the plane then go and have half a glass of sangria and a plate of paella then by the end of the first week get on the phone for a sat dish so they can get bbc and itv.its easy to see that the toilet area is from malaga to gib most brits, most trouble, most problems, and they say they want true spain. i,ve seen the mess there that is caused by the brits arriving, and no wonder the locals are laughing. most of these brits have not spoken to any locals, because they cannot speak the lingo. if they just made an attempt they would not only find that there would be less problems but they would actually enjoy spain. instead you only get morose comments, and blame everybody else for there negative issues.not only that we then get issues here on south africa and other places, which is quite remarkable, seeing we are called spi. still keep it up tweedle dee and tweedle dum your comments are almost amusing.Well I love Spain.
A few people come after money and get burned, such is life, same with everything, stocks etc, if it leaves a mess in places, hell buyer beware etc, same happens everywhere.
The board is full of English whingers and wannabee speculators, what can you do?. The next few years should be an opportunity for people, instead they’ll just whinge and blast on about the exchange rates and air fares and fly spray.
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@alanrthornton wrote:
sadly oh so true.
i also love spain, mostly because of the spanish people, thats why i fell in love with it firstly. its so sad that most here can only berate one another because of there losses etc. so bitter so very sad. maybe thats all they have left to keep themselves amused.We’ve bought on Polaris, if you can say you like Spain after buying on Polaris, Spain must be good.
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Mary Hinge wrote:alanrthornton wrote:sadly oh so true.
i also love spain, mostly because of the spanish people, thats why i fell in love with it firstly. its so sad that most here can only berate one another because of there losses etc. so bitter so very sad. maybe thats all they have left to keep themselves amused.We’ve bought on Polaris, if you can say you like Spain after buying on Polaris, Spain must be good.
And then you bought in Bulgaria and who knows in what other $hithole.
I guess you have so much money that you do not mind wasting. 😆
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@shakeel wrote:
“We’ve bought on Polaris, if you can say you like Spain after buying on Polaris, Spain must be good.”
I suppose you had a gun placed to your head to buy there. !!!!!!!! Polaris world in Spain & not Spain.
I’m mad on golf and love La Torre, we’ve got private front line golf, not totally sure about the Murcia region, but its an adventure.
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@Mary Hinge wrote:
@shakeel wrote:
“We’ve bought on Polaris, if you can say you like Spain after buying on Polaris, Spain must be good.”
I suppose you had a gun placed to your head to buy there. !!!!!!!! Polaris world in Spain & not Spain.
I’m mad on golf and love La Torre, we’ve got private front line golf, not totally sure about the Murcia region, but its an adventure.
So you know the road from San Javier airport to La Torre resort (i.e. about 19km) and this gives you the right to talk about Spain?????
Go and explore Murcia (Mula, Murcia City, Sierra Espugna), don’t stay like a parasite . 🙄
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@flosmichael wrote:
@Mary Hinge wrote:
@shakeel wrote:
“We’ve bought on Polaris, if you can say you like Spain after buying on Polaris, Spain must be good.”
I suppose you had a gun placed to your head to buy there. !!!!!!!! Polaris world in Spain & not Spain.
I’m mad on golf and love La Torre, we’ve got private front line golf, not totally sure about the Murcia region, but its an adventure.
So you know the road from San Javier airport to La Torre resort (i.e. about 19km) and this gives you the right to talk about Spain?????
Go and explore Murcia (Mula, Murcia City, Sierra Espugna), don’t stay like a parasite . 🙄
I don’t fly, I always travel by train, haven’t flown for years, i’ve been round a fair amount about the Murcia region, just not sure about it in general as a region, I much prefer Majorca and have been there loads of times, but if its golf and I do like golf, Murcia has a lot to offer.
Aren’t you the one who travelled around half of Murcia after fly spray?, know any good places I can get fly spray?.
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@Mary Hinge wrote:
I don’t fly, I always travel by train, haven’t flown for years, i’ve been round a fair amount about the Murcia region, just not sure about it in general as a region, I much prefer Majorca and have been there loads of times, but if its golf and I do like golf, Murcia has a lot to offer.
Aren’t you the one who travelled around half of Murcia after fly spray?, know any good places I can get fly spray?.
So you travel from UK to Murcia and Bulgaria by train??? 😀 😀 😀
OK, that explains many things. 🙄 -
@flosmichael wrote:
@Mary Hinge wrote:
I don’t fly, I always travel by train, haven’t flown for years, i’ve been round a fair amount about the Murcia region, just not sure about it in general as a region, I much prefer Majorca and have been there loads of times, but if its golf and I do like golf, Murcia has a lot to offer.
Aren’t you the one who travelled around half of Murcia after fly spray?, know any good places I can get fly spray?.
So you travel from UK to Murcia and Bulgaria by train??? 😀 😀 😀
OK, that explains many things. 🙄No I don’t travel to Bulgaria by train, Bulgaria is looked after by the skiiers round here, of which there are many 8) .
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@Mary Hinge wrote:
@flosmichael wrote:
@Mary Hinge wrote:
I don’t fly, I always travel by train, haven’t flown for years, i’ve been round a fair amount about the Murcia region, just not sure about it in general as a region, I much prefer Majorca and have been there loads of times, but if its golf and I do like golf, Murcia has a lot to offer.
Aren’t you the one who travelled around half of Murcia after fly spray?, know any good places I can get fly spray?.
So you travel from UK to Murcia and Bulgaria by train??? 😀 😀 😀
OK, that explains many things. 🙄No I don’t travel to Bulgaria by train, Bulgaria is looked after by the skiiers round here, of which there are many 8) .
Are you living in a Kyburz? 😆
What are the skiiers doing in Bulgaria? Do they go there because they are cheap or because their money got tied up in stupid places like Bansko? Tell them
that there are much better resorts in Switzerland, France, Austria and Italy. -
@flosmichael wrote:
@Mary Hinge wrote:
@flosmichael wrote:
@Mary Hinge wrote:
I don’t fly, I always travel by train, haven’t flown for years, i’ve been round a fair amount about the Murcia region, just not sure about it in general as a region, I much prefer Majorca and have been there loads of times, but if its golf and I do like golf, Murcia has a lot to offer.
Aren’t you the one who travelled around half of Murcia after fly spray?, know any good places I can get fly spray?.
So you travel from UK to Murcia and Bulgaria by train??? 😀 😀 😀
OK, that explains many things. 🙄No I don’t travel to Bulgaria by train, Bulgaria is looked after by the skiiers round here, of which there are many 8) .
Are you living a Kyburz? 😆
No, as i’ve stated before, they are all bought in companies, except the last one.
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@Mary Hinge wrote:
@flosmichael wrote:
@Mary Hinge wrote:
@flosmichael wrote:
@Mary Hinge wrote:
I don’t fly, I always travel by train, haven’t flown for years, i’ve been round a fair amount about the Murcia region, just not sure about it in general as a region, I much prefer Majorca and have been there loads of times, but if its golf and I do like golf, Murcia has a lot to offer.
Aren’t you the one who travelled around half of Murcia after fly spray?, know any good places I can get fly spray?.
So you travel from UK to Murcia and Bulgaria by train??? 😀 😀 😀
OK, that explains many things. 🙄No I don’t travel to Bulgaria by train, Bulgaria is looked after by the skiiers round here, of which there are many 8) .
Are you living a Kyburz? 😆
No, as i’ve stated before, they are all bought in companies, except the last one.
OK. But what is your goal on this Forum them?
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@flosmichael wrote:
@Mary Hinge wrote:
@flosmichael wrote:
@Mary Hinge wrote:
@flosmichael wrote:
@Mary Hinge wrote:
I don’t fly, I always travel by train, haven’t flown for years, i’ve been round a fair amount about the Murcia region, just not sure about it in general as a region, I much prefer Majorca and have been there loads of times, but if its golf and I do like golf, Murcia has a lot to offer.
Aren’t you the one who travelled around half of Murcia after fly spray?, know any good places I can get fly spray?.
So you travel from UK to Murcia and Bulgaria by train??? 😀 😀 😀
OK, that explains many things. 🙄No I don’t travel to Bulgaria by train, Bulgaria is looked after by the skiiers round here, of which there are many 8) .
Are you living a Kyburz? 😆
No, as i’ve stated before, they are all bought in companies, except the last one.
OK. But what is your goal on this Forum them?
To hear something of use to me about Spain on here before I die?. But seriously, if your looking to buy a property, rather than just slag everything off, start with something good to say about an area, if prices are too high, then say why etc.
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@Mary Hinge wrote:
To hear something of use to me about Spain on here before I die?. But seriously, if your looking to buy a property, rather than just slag everything off, start with something good to say about an area, if prices are too high, then say why etc.
You have the right attitude to make people spend time answering any of your questions. A Spoiled Brat will never get a candy on Public Forums.
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Peter
just bear in mind that she/he is a windup merchant, nothing more nothing less.
Such people take great delight in being controversial and saying things on a forum that they would only dream of saying to a person on a face to face basis. Best to ignore them and eventually they will go away
Richard
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@Mary Hinge wrote:
Thanks, for that, when you went after the flyspray, did you by any chance come across anywhere that sells cuprinol teak oil (spray on type)?, the patio furniture is giving me nightmares.
I beleive Pinturas Andalucia sell it. Not much good in Murcia I guess… I would think any large paint store would sell the stuff.
But i don’t think you going to find hte spray. Too many people have patios, etc… spray more likely to make a mess. -
anyway…….getting back to the thread!!
I think what most people would like to see is a programme that dealt with the real situation, by asking opinions of as many Brits and Spanish living in Spain as is possible what their experience has been with agents, lawyers, developers, concils etc, building quality, justice, community issues etc, and work out percentages of good/bad or happy/sad based on this survey. The good and bad should then be named and the situation should be clearer for those watching. Will it ever happen? I doubt it. There are so many court cases for wrong doings in Spain, we know a hell of a lot is wrong, but are the content people outnumbering the non-content? Before Spain can recover it really must face up to the problems that have lead to where it is now, and decide if it wants to carry on the same or change?
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oh and talk about many of the gimmicks past and present that agencies, developers, etc… try to get you too buy.
Maybe get away from these urbanisation in the middle of nowhere and show the towns a bit more (not F***ing marbella). Talk about investment projects that could help property prices, etc…
How changes in demographics have affected X, y & z -
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Fuengi
yes indeed. Anything that shows the real situation. Would be good to see some hard talk interviews also with certain agents, developers , lawyers etc. If only they could name and shame it might force some of the worst sharks (who haven’t changed their name or gone bust, or vanished in a crashed airoplane?) to try and defend their actions. Now that would be worth watching.
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not going to happen though is it?
People would rather see an interview involving someone like Katie Price than an in depth look at the property/economy of Spain. But then english TV is quite inward looking in that sense.
I mean how much does that average Briton know about their main export partners? (USA 15%, Germany 11%, France 10%, Ireland 7%, Netherlands 6%, Belgium 6%, Spain 5%, Italy 4%) let alone a country where many Brits have bought a property? -
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To the game zone:
More Data against the topics:•Increase of foreigner population: Period (98 to 06) from 1,6% to 9,9% of the total population.
•Increase of jobs (legal market): Period (01 to 08 ) 3.716.000 total jobs.
•Total jobs lost (legal market): Crisis period (2009) -6,6%.
•Increase of GDP: Period (01 to 08 ) 27%, (55% of it to the Service Sector, 12% to the construction sector (2/3 to the property sector),…).
•Not residents investment in the property market (Banco de España 2007): 5.662 millions Euros. 1,7% of the total market.
•Spaniards investment in the property market abroad (Banco de España 2007): 3.107 millions Euros.Flosmichael wrote:
“Spain had a once-in-a-lifetime chance to get rich due to construction sector. Take that away and see that the Emperor has no clothes…”
goodstich44 wrote:
“Before Spain can recover it really must face up to the problems that have lead to where it is now, and decide if it wants to carry on the same or change?”I don’t know too much about clothes or fashion dress, but looks like (Spaniards) don’t need your clothes…
Why do you think you are so important to the property market?…About a 35% of a 1,7%…You are important in local areas…Get real.To the game zone:
Behind the Data:
My mother was in England, during some months, to learn English (London and White island) in a catholic resident for girls (Teresianas monks). That was when she was a teenager…She loved London, so clean, the people polite and elegant, she always spoke to me about how much she loved London…(PD. She didn’t liked Paris.)
…As I have said before I was in England a few years ago,…and I found a completely different picture to my mother picture…Shakeel wrote
“With proper regulation”
”Regulations are in theory designed to protect & mostly it does where certain issues slip through the system. lessons are learn & loop holes/failure in the system is closed. All this can be only done where all parties connected to it are professional, dedicated & honourable and work for & towards a better & fairer society. Irrespective of what sector of society you look at.”Well!,…in just one generation you received a nice society, from your parents, and had left a mess to your children…So what lessons can you give to us?… Why we must change to do things in your way?… To make a better and fairy society?…You didn’t make your homework, did you?…so stop to be so selfish…it’s becoming ridiculous.
WAKE UP!!!,…you are just hurting yourself.
Common sense, fair behavior, or to the more sophisticated persons the “games theory” will show you that the best strategy should be COLABORATION and not CONFRONTATION with the locals…but anyway make as you wish is your game…is your live…PD- Susan and other people work, joining IU (Izquierda Unida, the Spanish communist party, only 1 person in the Spanish parliament) and other anticapitalistic groups, to fight against Spanish government has been a complete mistake…self-inflicted damage.
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Fuengi
yes, that sounds like a good combination for question time. We would need some of the bad guys there though so that we could see them in their true colours!
The impression though from some on here is that people from the UK can take a running jump, as the Spanish don’t care if we don’t buy there anymore. Well the attitude towards justice and regulation for those from the UK would certainly agree with that. Perhaps most from the UK will only holiday in Spain in future as before the boom?
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The truth is most spanish don’t care about people losing everything through buying illegal properties. If corruption is discussed its only focus is how much was “robbed” from the Town Hall coffers. Things won’t change. What will change is that future buyers will be better armed with knowledge from Forums like this.
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No, you didn’t understand me,…of course UK market is important,… “…They create jobs and wealth in the small – and often dying – pueblos they’ve chosen to live in” (already said at “an Spaniard point of view”)
…mostly the Brits are very nice persons,…and we the Spaniards are happy,…but only if you have a COLABORATION aptitude and not a CONFRONTATION aptitude with the locals,…is this a so difficult pill to take?.
Could you be a little more open, and try to read what I have been saying for months and the answers I get from you and others members of your club…
How can be possible that you have been writing for years in this forum about Spain, without knowing facts?…or you really didn’t care?. -
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Katy
yes, that looks to be the way sadly. After all the efforts, petitions etc trying to force change, it’s sad if it all falls on deaf ears. Hopefully the knowledge from those making sense on this and similar forums will make it harder for quite so many sharks to prosper in future?.
Claire
oh yes, balance eh!…….lovely
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I think all Estate Eagents in Spain (UK ones that is) would be happier for their clients to be better informed, not just about the process, which can save the agent a lot of time and repeated conversations, but also more knowledgeable about their chosen area, and with a specific few properties to chose from.
One of the better sides of UK Estate Agency is the fact that most buyers are local and very knowledgeable about the area. The Estate Agents themselves sell in a far norrower area than their Spanish counter-parts. It really does help if the buyer knows exactly which house they wish to purchase.
One of the problems here in Spain is that more often than not, the salesperson has very little experience not only in Spain, but the Spanish language and general culture. They can cover hundreds of km’s in a day, often because the buyer has asked to see too many properties without considering the vast area covered, but also because the agent has them on offer.
The Spanish property industry would be much more efficient if it was more localised/specialised as in the UK and the buyers were more specific about their requirements.
As Mark says on the header of this site ““When it comes to property, information really is power” Maybe Estate Agents should begin to see that it is equallly applicable to them as it is to the buyers.
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Peter Good
some good points there. I can see what you are saying. Also helps in the UK that most people can feel fairly confident about build quality/sewage/flood and local planning issues and having various bodies to go to for advice if something isn’t up to scratch, before even looking. The job of the UK agent must in some ways be a doddle compared to that of agents in Spain, if they are trying to be transparent, warts and all?
To the decent agents who read the forum, I really hope that when the dust settles, you will get the rewards you deserve for not joining in with the scams and corruption that many seem to consider is just part of Spain? The next wave of buyers will (or should?) be far more wary and research very thoroughly at every stage. Hopefully the good guys will stand out through word of mouth/reputation.
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To goodstich44:
Here you go again,…without any rational restrictions,…I wonder if you will use the DATA I already give you,… Or you just will follow you are own familiar topics…About the floods: The Spanish topography (the coast line very near to the mountains) doesn’t help to control floods. That’s right, there are floods.
But what if YOU check for the last 10 years floods in Europe?, I mean economic damage, dead persons,…About the quality of the buildings: Well, most of the times, as much you pay as much quality you can enjoy.
We could compare the minimum quality of the “VPO houses” (houses for poor people) that is fixed for the government. One of my brothers (architect) work for a big company (in and out of Spain) and he knows a lot about quality of the buildings. He said to me that including VPO houses have an incredible level of quality far above European quality standards.
YOU could check this sentence or must I give you all the DATA that anyway you will not use in your treads?. (really I had not cheeked it, is only my brother’s words. I just believe him).At the beginning you were a victim and I felt sympathy for you, but your comments had gone too far away of that sympathy…
[size=18]Make you a favor[/size]:
•As many people had said, the market is going down everywhere,…
•There are many places under the sun…
•You could get a good Sterling-Euro exchange…
•The Spanish market had not going down so much as an others markets…
•We are all a band of morons, robbers,…without common sense, always making stupidly the same mistakes time after time in our donkey mentality …and as a country Spain doesn’t have any future at all…
•Here every thing have a very poor quality,…Poor of us!!!… We make our best but being, in a molecular level, so stupid. What you could expect?.Do you know what I mean?,…Be a clever man: GO out of this HELL.
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Well, my mate Tree may be a bit of a troll (con respeto, pero ya me parece que lo has merecido), but at least he reads this stuff. There are endless problems with rip-offs, corruption, fraud and different authorities and party-members sticking it to each other through withholding building permisions and so on, but no one in Spain seems to know or care about it.
Again last night, the Priors and ‘Homes in Hell’ was shown in the UK to a large number of impressionable people who won’t be buying a house in Spain as a direct result. The last show – shown just a week ago – the one about property fraud in Cantoria, got some 3,820,000 viewers (who won’t be buying in Spain either).
All this, amigo Tree, because of a few chorizos who are protected by the Spanish institutions. It’s not us that’s suffering. It’s the Spanish people.
Why not tell them what the media and the lawyers and the politicians are doing? -
lenox
that’s great news if people seeing the truth about the Priors are taking notice. If it saves one more person being cheated, then it will have been well worth it. People will buy if they feel confident of not being shafted, or if they are, that there is a body in place to regulate in thir favour without having to go through a very long and expensive court case, often with little hope of justice!
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I have to say that I have bought and sold here many times without any problem. Would I buy again? probably never!
Heard this morning that the property market in Spain will not bottom out until 2014. I think it could be longer. The last slump here took ten years to get back to normal, this one is worse.
Many of those illegal properties may not be demolished but they will not be able to be sold on.
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@lenox wrote:
tree may be a bit of a troll (con respeto, pero ya me parece que lo has merecido),
Respect a troll? He/she is only here to stir the rubbish.
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@katy wrote:
He does go one to say he (tree) has deserved the title 😀
Yes, but he should have said without any regret:
“salga de aqui gnomo estupido”.
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katy
I would guess that one reason you have bought and sold many times without problems is because you know more who and what you are dealing with?
I think it’s also something of a lottery finding decent people to deal with, due to the lack of penalties for not being straight.
As for the slump, well hard to see any fast recovery, but is Spain bovvered miss !!…..does it look bovvered miss?……look, eyes, bovvered??if you haven’t seen Catherine Tate’s show that wont mean much?
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Katy said:
Heard this morning that the property market in Spain will not bottom out until 2014
That’s some time – I was thinking along the lines of next year, but don’t live in Spain, so really have no idea.
It’s very difficult to read what’s going on at the moment. Here in West Dorset the market has taken a sudden turn. One local agent sold 32 properties last month! Yes – 32 !!! Apparently sentiment has changed and the renters are buying. Houses are fetching the asking price again, and houses that have been stuck for the last 2 years have suddenly got offers.
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NO ARGUMENTS?…ONLY INSULTS?…
Any time I argument they answer…with the same music…TROLL, TROLL,…But Lenox what part of my speech was too much?… and compared to what?…you are dirtying your credibility being with this gays.
Where my arguments have been harder than their topics?…Where is the problem?…
Did I give more information in few weeks that They ever have had in years?.
Don’t worry they will not digest the information.
Did I broke down most of the topics?
…Now, the poor gays know deeply that they are lying,…
…That was cruel?…
Came on!! Don’t be so worry for them, You know that troop,…
…Don’t worry, they don’t care about the true,…
…Don’t you see the type of skin they have?,…
…Don’t worry they will be as always, in topics for ever,…
…They didn’t understand any word about what I have said…
…So I didn’t make any hurt to them…I only manage my arguments and cool DATA, why that have become an intolerable INSULT?.
Sorry, if “their true” is not healty enough to support a few data…Could be because is a very weak true.?
Remember that this is a forum for information …not the bla, bla ,bla,..beeing here for years.
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Goodstich44 said:
Also helps in the UK that most people can feel fairly confident about build quality/sewage/flood and local planning issues and having various bodies to go to for advice if something isn’t up to scratch, before even looking.
A really good point goodstich. We have transparency and useful information in the UK. Making an informed decision is easier here than Spain.
Did anyone see Freefall on TV last night? It showed how the banks, mortgage providers, sales staff and homebuyers were all interrelated. The banks packaged (bundled) good mortgages with poor ones, and sold them on. Ultimately the banks and home buyers were the biggest losers; sales reps of mortgage products held onto their financial gains and just moved on to the next popular product. It’s difficult to see where the home purchaser stands in all this mayhem. You could argue that for some, the promotion of discounted mortgages provided the opportunity to buy a house and acquire an asset – or see them as victims of miss-selling who lost their properties through repossessions.
There is another problem in the Financial World that is not particularly talked about, but could equally cause mayhem – namely the selling of derivatives. These may cause another melt-down. The knock on effects may last for generations and cause a severe crises of capitalism. It is possible that what we are experiencing now is just the beginning of something much worse!
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To Flosmichael:
Dear little hobbit:
Nice to see you,. always is a placer to teach you a little of education about any subject.Webster´s Encyclopedy: Gay– Having or showing a joyous mood.
Am I not improving my English? 8) …Thanks for your time.
8)I am not going to said any thing about your Spanish sentence, ..That would be too easy. Is not your language, not your fault. Check it
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@tree wrote:
To Flosmichael:
Dear little hobbit:
Nice to see you,. always is a placer to teach you a little of education about any subject.Webster´s Encyclopedy: Gay– Having or showing a joyous mood.
Am I not improving my English? 8) …Thanks for your time.
8)Yeah right, I am sure you used gay in that sense. 🙄
I really do noy understand why you waste time on this forum…
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@maximus wrote:
Katy said:
Heard this morning that the property market in Spain will not bottom out until 2014
That’s some time – I was thinking along the lines of next year, but don’t live in Spain, so really have no idea.
Truth is, nobody really knows but pretty well all the independent forecasters (i.e. those who do not have a vested interest in ramping the market up) are now saying that the market will be failling until 2012. I hadn’t yet heard 2014 as posted by Katy but it doesn’t surprise me.
Unless some kind of a miracle happens there is no way the market will turn next year.
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@tree wrote:
NO ARGUMENTS?…ONLY INSULTS?…
Any time I argument they answer…with the same music…TROLL, TROLL,…But Lenox what part of my speech was too much?… and compared to what?…you are dirtying your credibility being with this gays.
Where my arguments have been harder than their topics?…I took your advice, after finding out what a bunch of crooks were running Spanish property, I went to hell.
I gave up my idea of buying in Spain.
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Maximus wrote:
“So tree……How do you explain the term ‘fairy society’?
I bet that’s not in your encyclopedia.
Why do you waste everyones time? You’re not welcomed here so why stay?”
Well,…I can do it with DATA and arguments,…but believe me, that could be very CRUEL, and I am not angry enough to do it,…Just some insults are not enough petrol to change my mood,…but if you really wants the answer you will need much more insults,… to encourage me.
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I been checking and I must said that PSI is the best forum I have found, Mark had let me exposed all my arguments and DATA,although I am not very popular,… Thanks Mark .
From now on, I will stay outside from every treads of the forum so you could say what ever you wish …I am tired to be so disruptive…I give up.
I am Spaniard, Doctor Engineering, with a good knowledge of Economy and just a tolerable English level…not an English man, Dam ,Jack, or any others names (I could not understand about what you were speaking about)…
….Well this is all very sad,…I can not take any more…I am sorry to said that I am not so strong…My apologize when needed. Good bye.
Let you be a little more cooperative and make day by day a better forum.
Regards to all. -
I suspect you are the poster on another forum and caused havoc there. (Same rubbish)The moderator there is (thankfully) not tolerant of disruptive posters. Not wanting the same to happen here I guess that is your reason to jump before you are pushed. Hopefully you will keep to that decision as your posts are bizarre to say the least.
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Don’t worry is my last DATA, and I think this could be interesting for some of you.
I am cleaning the PC of all the DATA I needed to replay to you.
Here I downloaded the Data according to the “Ministry of house”.(“MINISTERIO DE VIVIENDA”). I should have downloaded before but is difficult to download an Excel table, so many times I just made an small resume of the DATA. (Just the DATA of the regions you are more interesting about).1º quarter of 2009.
You could see what is going on in the market, in the actually crisis times.
TOTAL bought
Not Residents
-TOTAL NACIONAL
104.703
484.ANDALUCIA
21.265
177.
Almeria
2.112
47.
Cadiz
2.805
11.
Cordoba
1.454
4.
Granada
2.845
11.
Huelva
1.413
7.
Jaen
1.310
0.
Malaga
5.066
93.
Sevilla
4.260
4.Baleares
1.938
24.Canarias
4.298
75.Cataluña
12.196
20.Comunidad Valenciana–13.227
122.
Alicante
5.806
110.
Valencia
5.290
10.
Castellon
2.131
2. -
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@axwhale wrote:
😥 😥 me too Tree sorry to see you go .
In my naivety I never understood where Frank and his Tin Hat went!
I even sent a PM asking him why he went, perhaps I am not aware of all the history and issues involved with Frank, there was obviously some background stuff to do with a development, but generally I found his posts quite entertaining, it seemed quite a pity that a certain amount of residual bickering took place.
I kinda miss him still.
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Don’t worry, the lovely Frank ♥♥♥ is still with us, his new personna is Man in Marbella despite all protestations to the contrary.
Keep up now chaps. 🙂
http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4426&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
(unfortunately his thread got trashed by the usual culprits)
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@charlie wrote:
Don’t worry, the lovely Frank ♥♥♥ is still with us, his new personna is Man in Marbella despite all protestations to the contrary.
Keep up now chaps. 🙂
http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4426&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
(unfortunately his thread got trashed by the usual culprits)Ahh, I don’t know enough to know if that is Frank, and why would he bother talking about the off plan process, when there just isn’t any off plan process left to buy any longer?
All a bit redundant, and while logical enough, the topic is several years out of date I would have thought.
Why can’t Frank be Frank anyway, or should this thread be renamed Frank Lost…
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I have realized that I didn’t explain enough well my last post, befor I go I must explain it:
I wrote:
WAKE UP!!!,…you are just hurting yourself.
Common sense, fair behavior, or to the more sophisticated persons the “games theory” will show you that the best strategy should be COLABORATION and not CONFRONTATION with the locals…but anyway make as you wish is your game…is your live…The “games theory” is part of the Operative Research, the COLABORATION- CONFRONTATION strategies are very classic,…I wrote this directed to Flosmichael because he as a Mathematics teacher should understand what I was speaking about.
I was as well wondering about why they had choose a CONFRONTATION strategy, and I made my own conclusions:
fair behavior: I already found the most possible solution to their incredible unfair behavior is:” TO MAKE MONEY”.(“An Spaniard point of view”).
To have any successful strategy they should prevent the future Replay of their enemy (The Spanish society):
1º-Hard Hypothesis (their hypothesis) – What can be the reaction of a so corrupted system to their confrontation?…A Hard reaction.
.2º-Soft Hypothesis (the rational one) – What can be the reaction of a kind system to their confrontation?…..A Soft reaction.
.They already know that, including in a soft reaction:
•The local regions control completely every aspect about the Police, Health system, Local Taxes,… or any other issue.
•Neither the Spanish laws or the European laws obligate to apply this aspects with generosity. There is plenty of room in all of this aspects,…Some of this aspects have been played by the moment with a nice generosity.…Could be that they, one again, didn’t though about that?…
So…they don’t know who they are,…where they are…neither where are they going,…THE PERFECT PICTURE OF A CHICKEN WITOUT HEAD?.
…or another possibility is that they are playing with the 1º hypothesis (to support their interests) but knowing that the real one is the 2º hypothesis,…QUITE UNFAIR BUT MORE CLEVER…They are trying to make money, and they don’t care about the soft reaction of a fair system.
This must be the solution…because any body can be so stupid to choose a CONFRONTATION believing the1º hypothesis.The problem is that with their unfair business, their are hurting to the majority of the good Brit community,…an all this only to protect their LIES.
Their LIES (some of them):
To be naïve is not a crime,… Yes, but don’t give especial rights.1º-Millions of persons wake up early every morning to work all day long for money.
2º-Millions of persons invest their money in the low risk public debt at a rate between a 2% to 3,5% rate.
3º-To earn more of that rate in the stock market you will need to take risk.
4º-Any business needs to work a lot and to take risk to earn just a 10% of the investment.To think that the market property don’t have any risk is not naïve,…
To think that they are so smart that could earn a 10% or more without a risk and without move a muscle is not naïve,..
They were not naïve,…they were so smart that though that the persons number 1º to number 4º were stupid trolls,…but being so smart they have arrive to the smart conclusion that is not their fault is the fault of the Spanish system.There are victims,…yes, but real victims that can be input to the Spanish system how many?…maybe a 0,01%,… I don’t know…,they just use the victims to earn money, they use the Brits community to earn money without any care of the consequences, they make every single speech about the Spanish society (knowing is unfair and out of any data or argument) to earn money … that is my conclusion.
AS much as I look to all of this, from different sides, I always arrive to the same conclusion,…THEY ARE IN A VERY UNFAIR BUSINESS,…They are the real wolfs in this story.
My regards. JA -
Hi Tree,
I understand where you are coming from. I don’t like it when all spanish are tarred with the same brush.
But at the other end. Many people (not the majority) have bought properties here in Spain and have been screwed over. Either by lack of regulaiton amongst the real estate agents, which is now being correct with laws such as decree 218 (slowly being enforced) or by developers buidling illegally. Which is also being cracked down upon now.
The problem being though that the politicians and bureaucrats allowed and in some cases condoned these activities.
Of course politicians being what they are no-one is suprised! But at the end of the day it is the voters that have put these people in power.
We, whether we choose to vote or not, are indirectly responsible for alot of the shit that has gone on.Tree what you need to do, as I had to, is realise that the people here don’t mean to say that Spain or the Spanish are corrupt/lazy/etc… just the people involved or that caused their misfortune via illegal activities and false selling.
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To Fuengy:
Thank you for your words, you are now part of the Spanish society, and the only rational and fair strategy is COLLABORATE, we are here, in Spain, for a long period, perhaps the rest of our lives,…and Yes, the justice system is very slow, we suffer as much as you this fact, needs to be improved a lot,…but that doesn’t means is corrupted (as much as I know).
Spain have more corruption that England. Yes, is a fact,…but please put it in the real proportion,…I already had give DATA about that.
I have said that we have faults, but we (all together) will improve…I really believe that,…
My regards. JA -
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fuengi;
If I know some-one is committing a crime or is about to, & I don’t report that to the police i can be charged as an accessory. All those Spanish, who may not be involved in illegal activities themselves but who do know what is going on are accessories!
As long as the Spanish choose to ignore their own laws they are actively encouraging the fraudsters, yes, some of whom are British. However the brits couldn’t carry out their part of the fraud WITHOUT the Spanish.
I don’t care how few or many are involved as victims, 1 is too many. There are, however, many tens of thousands of victims. that may be a small % of the total foreign buyers in Spain but it is stll a very large figure.
I am sick & tired of people claiming it is the victims fault! It isn’t! It is the fault of corrupt developers, corrupt agents & corrupt lawyers!
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@rob6578 wrote:
I am sick & tired of people claiming it is the victims fault! It isn’t! It is the fault of corrupt developers, corrupt agents & corrupt lawyers!
I think that is a little one-sided rob.
The fault usually lies on all sides. Spain is a far more precarious place to both buy and live in than the UK.
It requires a large amount of research and establishing of facts compared to the UK.
Buying to invest is far more difficult in Spain as the post Franco property market has been quite volatile and unpredictable.
Buying a property for holidays is a risky venture. If you use it yourself or to rent out for an income it’s just too far away to manage and there are too few professional companies to manage it on your behalf. I sold my UK property after living in Spain for a couple of years specifically because I could not be on the spot should there be any problems, of which there were many.
Those who purchase in Spain to live, in my experience as an agent, rely too much on the agent for information about the area and the buying process, I would say 60-80% bought on 3 day inspection tours without any knowledge whatsoever of the area or that process. That is not advisable even in the UK let alone Spain.
Then there is the lack of language skills, if you want to live in Spain on a permanent basis, you need to speak the language to a decent level before you buy. This has almost never been the case and is a large contributor to the reason why the buyers lean on too many people with too many vested interests.
I agree with your statement about the Spanish system though, it is well behind the UK, which is even more reason to exercise extreme caution when buying.
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@rob6578 wrote:
I am sick & tired of people claiming it is the victims fault! It isn’t! It is the fault of corrupt developers, corrupt agents & corrupt lawyers!
well yes of course. And had the politicians/bureaucrats implemented better laws and policed them better this would not be an issue. Maybe we who live in Spain need to be more demanding with our politicians, etc…
And hopefully in the future with with the malaya case, etc… and the case of andalucia the Junta being more zealous with planning permissions, etc… we might actually learn from our past. (got to try and be optimistic!)
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Rob, you have touched on something I brought up on the forum several years ago, and totally agree with you.
I asked why is it that if I was in the customised car business offering bespoke pink Jaguars and took deposits stating a 6 month waiting period while it’s being made-to-order, then I didn’t deliver but kept the deposits, these customers would simply go to the police and report me for fraud.
I have never understood why purchasers of property finding themselves in a relatively-similar situation could not have the same recourse.How is it developers could continue sitting in their offices with impunity while sitting on deposits of millions of euros (as in our case), not having laid a brick and calmly shrugging their shoulders initimating they don’t still have that money to refund us?
Why was it necessary to go to court to see our money again? Why couldn’t the police just arrest the directors (we had all documented proof of our payment), and their assets frozen?I have often questioned whether it should really be a matter of bringing ‘criminal’ charges but our lawyer’s advice was always that this was not the best route to take.
We did go to court and retrieved our money back with costs eventually but it took many years and the developer is still sitting in his office, business as usual. In my opinion there is no other walk in life where you could get away with this type of business-behaviour. -
rob6578 said
”I am sick & tired of people claiming it is the victims fault! It isn’t! It is the fault of corrupt developers, corrupt agents & corrupt lawyers!”
Quite! Not one sided rob, just fact! What is one sided is agents trying to justify lies and cheating by saying buyers should be more cautious. Yes they should be very cautious, but if they are not, that in no way justifies conning them.
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Peter – we are back to the point that many of us mistakingly believed we could trust our lawyers to protect our interests.
They are supposed to be the experts on all legal matters and it is this expertise that we pay them for. We also expected them to adhere to the oath they took when they became lawyers.Unless one has lived in Spain before, or is currently living/working in Spain with one’s ear consequently to the ground, it doesn’t matter how much research one is able to do, if you’re not privvy to the gossip re. the corruption that was/is endemic – and that includes the lawyer profession – how is one to know?
No matter how badly made some of these recent tv programmes are, at least in the UK one is now in a postion to be enlightened as to what is/has been going on. Back in 2003 when we bought, there were no such programmes.We chose our Spanish lawyer’s firm with care, with offices worldwide and a huge reputation. They still screwed us into the ground with lies, deceit, failure to obtain Bank Guarantee etc. Yes, our law firm was recommended by our agent (the so-called ‘reputable’ Savills of London) but we felt this recommendation could be trusted as against choosing one we knew nothing about. Oh for hindsight.
There is only so much a purchaser coming from UK can do. We made multi-visits over a three month period and read everything that was ever printed. Our visits were independent, not inspection tours.
Sherry from Seattle hit the nail on the head with her last post – the problem is there is no comeback re. these lawyers – and their Colegio de Abogados is impotent and simply not interested.With the Government happily sitting on and retaining the taxes paid on properties that they themselves deem illegal, the situation is still currently in a hopeless corrupt, immoral mess.
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Peter:
If it isn’t the fault of a cabal of developers, local councils, agents & lawyers, then who is to blame?
Whilst I agree that some Uk buyers were naive, & some were greedy, not all were.
Take Almanzora Country Club as an example; This was marketed as a legal development with bank guarantees. It wasn’t until the regional government decided that it was illegal that the development came to a halt. By then some 2000 buyers had paid deposits, some of them in excess of €50,000. they had lawyers & bank guarantees. What did they do wrong?
The banks are refusing to pay the BG’s because the developer owes too much money. This is against Spanish law, the courts have passed judgement in the buyers favor & the banks ignore these rulings!
Trampolin Hills: almost the same situation, except of the €65,000,000 taken in deposits, only €15,000,000 is protected by a BG issued by an authorised institution in Spain. €50,000,000 is covered by a Swiss company that ISN’T authorised in Spain.
What did the buyers (2500) do wrong there?
That is 4500 buyers. On 2 developments! OK, out of 750,000 foreign owners, not that many, but it still a-lot of people.
Perhaps people have been too trusting. They trusted the company in the UK (Parador, Atlas, Masa etc), they trusted the developer, & their lawyer, they trusted the bank, & WHY NOT!
What can you do about retrospective planning laws?
There are some 11,000 illegal properties in the Almanzora valley.
Were ALL these buyers stupid/greedy & naive?
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I am in total agreeance with you charlie. The system you, goodstich and all who have lost money in Spain over is flawed from top to bottom.
I quickly learned that before I became an agent in 2000.
I spent 2 years, even after opening my offices, before I found a property for myself. In my search to provide my own home I quickly learned what I was happy to sell to others and what I would not. It stood me in good stead.
Before I came out to Spain around the end of 1999 the Valencia land-grab was all over the papers and on national TV. I looked on the internet, even then there was plenty of information on newspaper websites and there were a few forums where I could read some 1st hand accounts.
When I arrived, I felt very hesitant to go looking with agents. I met a few British who had lived in the area since the early 1980’s – they were a fantastic help and coupled with my internet information confirmed to me just what a minefield it would be to buy a property.
Also at the time, a member of my family was buying nearby, they were about to, and did, purchase an illegal property. Later when my agency was up and running I got it legalised and learned a lot more about the process.
I state again, the system is badly flawed, it appears to protect the guilty, it even appears to victimise the victims themselves. But it is no different now to when I first came, there is a process, it is unlike the one we are familiar with in the UK. It is very slow and quite costly, though not as costly as in the UK. It only works occasionally for foreigners though it works more often for those who speak the language.
The EU has made a slight difference, but it may also have caused the Spanish to be more stubborn, especially as they don’t like being told what to do from Brussels.
We are now well into a recession here into Spain, more people have lost more money through the worlds shoddy banking system than through buying illegal property in Spain. I really doubt that anything will change any time soon.
But we must always acknowledge that the vast amount of UK property buyers in Spain have not been robbed or cheated out of their money, many have made a fortune and most are happily sitting in a bar or around their pool enjoying what they came here to enjoy.
Anyone new to Spanish property discussion forums have as much right to hear that last paragraph as they have a right to be made aware of the pitfalls.
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@rob6578 wrote:
Trampolin Hills: almost the same situation, except of the €65,000,000 taken in deposits, only €15,000,000 is protected by a BG issued by an authorised institution in Spain. €50,000,000 is covered by a Swiss company that ISN’T authorised in Spain.
slightly of topic, but did you know trampoline hills, if i remember correctly, were offering around 15% commission?!!!
We also had a client looking at a new build 3 years ago and they asked us to help them find a lawyer, get all papers on the development, etc… and she found out that the BG was not valid in Spain. Here recommendation was to not to touch the development.@rob6578 wrote:
Perhaps people have been too trusting. They trusted the company in the UK (Parador, Atlas, Masa etc), they trusted the developer, & their lawyer, they trusted the bank, & WHY NOT!
Were ALL these buyers stupid/greedy & naive?
maybe all of the above, and maybe none. As we all know it makes no difference in cases like this. They should be protected/compensated to some degree at least
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oh another client going to completion this thursday (off-plan purchase), came down 3 months ago as they were contacted by the lawyer in regards to completion. They came down, went to look at the property. The developer did not let them out of their site. The reason? the urbanisation was still running on developers electric, even though some buyers had gone to completion 6 months earlier! the developer told them this was normal and would be sorted out shortly. They then came into our office to say hello and after informed us.
After bo***cking the lawyers, etc… a bit their lawyer and the developer ‘agreed’ that they should not completed until the developer had made sure their property could be connected to sevillana (electric company). What would have happened if they had not told us? the lawyer said everything was ‘ready to go’. -
Back in the UK I purchased a property only to find out that a quarter of the land identified in the agents literature was not part of my purchase.
The agents in the UK were not at fault in my opinion, they don’t check out land registry or title deeds, that is what my lawyer was meant to do.
When I fenced my land in, a local told me the land was common land. I agreed with him that it was. I contacted my lawyer and after cajoling him to look at his work, he agreed with me and said there was nothing he could do. I looked into suing him and quickly found out he would be able to wriggle out of it because of the land registry ambiguity.
I asked the local council if I could have the land and they said yes. I didn’t have to pay for it a second time and it was all settled in a few months.
Later I bought a property in the UK that had an illegal extension, it was only permitted to have single story in that area of the village. My lawyer had never visited the property and there were no plans showing the illegal master bedroom jutting out of the loft. The estate agent was about 18 years old and she wasn’t aware of any planning restrictions.
I didn´t blame the lawyer or the agent even though it would have been easy to do so. Again I aproached the local council (different area to the first example) and they were fine about it and said they would try and legalise it. It didn´t happen as I sold the property a year or so later. The new owners were made aware of the problem but didn’t worry as they were going to extend the ground floor area anyway.
So, I doubt my 2 examples there are the only ones to occur in the UK. There are planning discrepencies all over the UK and as in my examples, there was very little to protect me.
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Peter Good:
You obviously haven’t come across The Property Misdiscriptions Act which DOES make the Estate Agent in England responsible for the details advertised of the properties he has for sale.
I’m not claiming that the UK is paradise for the buyer, it isn’t, but it is better than Spain. There are ways to take action against lawyers & estate agents in the Uk, time consuming-yes, expensive-probably, but it does happen, buyers do get their money back, & estate agents are banned from working. That won’t happen in Spain, will it?
I note that you & fuengi haven’t commented on my point about people buying legal properties only to discover at a later date that they have been declared illegal! Sometimes years after they bought.
All of us who have an interest in Spanish property, as i do, I own a property in Spain, should realise that it doesn’t matter how many people are happy with they bought. I’m very happy with my place, but because of all the problems, combined with the economic situation, my chances of selling at at anything close to what I paid are nil.
I don’t plan to sell, so my supposed value is irrelevant, but for many it isn’t.
The media isn’t interested in good news, that doesn’t sell advertising. It wants bad news.
So what for every 1 buyer with a problem, there a thousand who don’t have problems, they don’t care. That side won’t appear on TV or in the national press. Please understand that, & accept that the situation must change in Spain.
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@rob6578 wrote:
I note that you & fuengi haven’t commented on my point about people buying legal properties only to discover at a later date that they have been declared illegal! Sometimes years after they bought.
I did
in the previous post@rob6578 wrote:
The media isn’t interested in good news, that doesn’t sell advertising. It wants bad news.
unless the developer/agents are buying the advertising.
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They reported all the good news when it was a rising market and everyone wanted to know how to make a ton of money from off plan purchases. That was the news
Way back in 2003 no one wanted to know the underlying factors – everytime I tried to get any items in print, they didnt want to know as it would ruin the bubble – and too many agents were paying huge amounts for advertising their properties, roadshows and property shows.
It was all good news then!
The supposed bad news is in vogue, because it is the truth at the moment – at least they are up with the times.
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Sorry, I am still reading from time to time,…I couldn’t resist.
NO COMENTS!!rob6578 wrote: (Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:58 pm)
I’m not claiming that the UK is paradise for the buyer, it isn’t, but it is better than Spain. There are ways to take action against lawyers & estate agents in the Uk, time consuming-yes, expensive-probably, but it does happen, buyers do get their money back, & estate agents are banned from working. That won’t happen in Spain, will it?Charlie wrote: (Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:01 pm)
…We did go to court and retrieved our money back with costs eventually but it took many years and the developer is still sitting in his office, business as usual.Claire wrote: (Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:34 pm)
That is precisely what Charlie & I were saying two weeks ago Katy, and why I consider myself VERY VERY lucky. In fact we celebrated our “lucky escape” over a glass or three of very nice Cretan wine!! We got all of our money back +++.( I’m not rubbing noses in, I’m just giving the V for victory sign to the trolls) -
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Tree, your point being?
I hope you’re not getting confused here.
Rob wrote: “There are ways to take action against lawyers & estate agents in the Uk, time consuming-yes, expensive-probably, but it does happen, buyers do get their money back, & estate agents are banned from working. That won’t happen in Spain, will it”?And then you quoted Claire and myself re. our cases. 😯
Claire and ourselves did not get anything from our respective original lawyers or agents despite being cheated by them.
We took the bank to court.
Considering nothing had been built, they didn’t really have a leg to stand on but to pay up (even though they did try by appealing but lost that too).Incidentally, another part of our development has been built (illegally) and many of the unfortunate purchasers there are being ordered to complete by some judges despite there being no LFO (therefore legally uninhabitable as per Spanish law).
The developer no doubt is laughing his socks off considering the building licence was revoked years ago.We would love to have taken our original lawyer to court but couldn’t find a lawyer prepared to bring a case. And the Ilustre Colegio de Abogados didn’t want to know.
All of which confirms Rob’s posting. Nothing has happened to our lawyer, the agent, nor even the developer.
You write “NO COMENTS!!”
You’re most welcome to make some as I’m confused as to what your point is.
Unless you are attempting to contradict Rob’s post by quoting Claire and myself, in which case I hope I have clarified matters for you. 🙂 -
Good afternoon alanrthornton:
Nice to see you.To Charlie:
I don’t want to enter in any discussion, I thought is very clear,…YOU TOOK YOUR WAY TO TAKE ACTION,…AND YOU GET YOUR MONEY BACK. That was the question isn’t?……And about the remark “We took the bank to court”,…I don’t understand why you think that a Bank is the weaker link of the chain of the totally corrupted Spanish system….should be easer to take action against an small agent, developer, lawyer,…
…but wait a moment is only my opinion….ONLY MY OPINION,…I am not a lawyer, neither a developer, neither an agent,…So only one opinion that surely is wrong. -
@tree wrote:
To Charlie:YOU TOOK YOUR WAY TO TAKE ACTION,…AND YOU GET YOUR MONEY BACK. That was the question isn’t?…
Not in relation to the comment from Rob6578 that you highlighted – no it isn’t actually.
Rob was specifically commenting on being able to get redress against lawyers and agents. Surely that was ‘the question’.@tree wrote:
I don’t understand why you think that a Bank is the weaker link of the chain of the totally corrupted Spanish system….
should be easer to take action against an small agent, developer, lawyerActually taking the bank to court re. their failure to pay on a Bank Guarantee was a very black-and-white issue when there had been a no-build as in our case.
Trying to take an agent or developer to court is ‘messy’ and complicated with many areas to dispute, and has never been done to my knowledge.
Re. trying to take a lawyer to court, as I said before – finding a lawyer willing to do this against one of his own is nigh on impossible. Which brings us back to the point Rob was making……in the UK “there are ways to take action” and it happens.All in my opinion too.
“I don’t want to enter in any discussion” – that’s ok. 🙂
But why are you on the forum then? -
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Good morning Alan –
I have to confess bearing in mind your track record on SPI, on reading your post I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. 😆Whereas I appreciate your attempt at behaviour-guidance in this matter which has been duly noted and filed away somewhere in the humour file, in my opinion I certainly don’t have to take anything “at face value” when a quote of mine is being incorrectly used to make a point.
First – if I am drawn into someone’s post by being quoted, I believe I have a right of reply, do I not?
Second – Tree chose to use quotes of mine and Claire’s that implied a contradiction to what Rob had written. I was simply correcting this false implication which I felt I did most politely.
I didn’t use your favourite word ‘moron’ once.Certainly no offence was taken and certainly no “bickering” has taken place as far as I’m aware.
Bickering only usually starts when someone else butts in and makes something into something that it isn’t.
And am sure Tree is a ‘big Oak’ who is perfectly able to reply for himself. Maybe you should take a leaf out of his book (or should that be a leaf out of his tree 🙂 ) and stick to “no comments”.😉
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As I said I don’t want to enter in any discussion.
Charlie wrote:
“Trying to take an agent or developer to court is ‘messy’ and complicated with many areas to dispute, and has never been done to my knowledge”To my knowledge it happen continuously… “Did you hear the one about the impoverished pensioner who got a block of flats as compensation when his developer didn’t deliver on time?…”( July 20, 2009 by SPI news ).
Charlie wrote:
“We would love to have taken our original lawyer to court but couldn’t find a lawyer prepared to bring a case. And the Ilustre Colegio de Abogados didn’t want to know“If you really want to take action against your lawyer, 100% you can do it….if the local lawyers don’t want to go against their partner, you should go to another place to look for that lawyer…It is more expensive because you will need to pay transport and hotels, but it will work 100%…
The “Ilustre Colegio de Abogados” is an institution that is paid for the lawyers, it Works for the lawyers,…is as you go to a “worker syndicate” to take action against your workers,…???
I don’t want to enter in any discussion, I already give up…because:
In my opinion … ONLY MY OPINION ….It doesn’t matter, if you read it or not,…nothing will change…you don’t need arguments…you have already received a lot…
How can I change your mind if you neither believe your own happy experience?.
You always will be in your unfair Topics,…and really I don’t care?. It’s you problem, not mine.In my opinion … ONLY MY OPINION …”You, Claire, Katy,and others (Your club) are very rude and unfair in your comments about Spain”.
In my opinion… ONLY MY OPINION …”your very , very, very heavy sentences are supported by very. very, very light arguments or any”.
In my opinion … ONLY MY OPINION … Your group looks to find an especial pleasure in doing this…It ´s OK. I don’t care,but it is embarrassing to me,…and I will prefer to look to other side.
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charlie
Tree’s comment about the Colegio was true. The rest is refusing to face up to ugly truths and as usual blaming the wrong people…. Only my opinion of course!
the pensioner mentioned was saddled with a e20 million mortgage along with his win. Some win eh?
‘changing lawyers’… that made me smile. Not a problem, but you might have to spend the next few years and a good deal of money sorting out…err ‘mistakes’ from your previous lawyer!!
cloud cuckoo land or what?
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ooops! more bad news….and written by an spaniard (sic)
http://www.diariosur.es/20090722/turismo/andalucia-recibe-medio-millon-20090722.html
Tourism down by 11%+ those of you who read spanish should scroll down and read the comments at the end…..rip-off prices, shit on the beaches yaya..
No comment from me, the spanish said it all 😆
Question for Mark “Is there anything in the new zero tolerance to include provoking members and making personal comments” ❓
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Another one
http://www.diariosur.es/20090722/marbella/junta-advierte-ayuntamiento-pone-20090722.html
Junta accuses Marbella Council of putting in jeapordy the legality of the new Town plan……will those thousands of apartments ever become legal 😕
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“As I said I don’t want to enter in any discussion”.
Ok, I hear you, but here you are back again with your “In my opinion … ONLY MY OPINION” followed by you discussing my post.
Or is it one of those game-zone thingys of yours that I’ve never really understood?“Did you hear the one about the impoverished pensioner who got a block of flats as compensation when his developer didn’t deliver on time?…”
(I gather this is simply ‘a question’ as against ‘a discussion’……)I assume you are referring to Benito Gonzales, yes I read about that on Saturday. And boy, I wouldn’t like to be in his shoes.
In case you aren’t aware, Aifos took out a 20 million € mortgage that is still outstanding on the property and the judge has ordered that Sr. Gonzales “must face that problem within 20 days”.Not exactly the kind of result I would want. Instead of his 80,000€ back in his pocket, he’s been ‘awarded’ a massive headache. Bet he didn’t see that one coming when he applied for an embargo!
Spanish justice, don’t you just love it.The “Ilustre Colegio de Abogados” is an institution that is paid for the lawyers, it Works for the lawyers…
I’m sorry, that may be how it works in Spain but it is not how it is supposed to work. It is supposed to act as its equivalent in the UK – The Law Society.
It has ethical and disciplinary funtions as far as its members are concerned (art.109 EGAE) but like most laws in Spain they are simply not applied.
That’s almost funny if it wasn’t so serious – your own Law Society doesn’t implement its own laws.“You, Claire, Katy,and others (Your club) are very rude and unfair in your comments about Spain”.
None of us have EVER been rude and unfair in our comments about Spain, nor its people in general. Our only rude and fair comments refer to the ongoing corruption and the people involved.
Careful re. putting words in my mouth Tree and read posts properly.I’m off this thread now, it’s getting monotonous. Just do me one courtesy – in future, don’t quote me again unless you know the FACTS of what you’re talking about, there’s a good fellow. It makes one want to get one’s handbag out of the wardrobe, and I promised Fuengi I wouldn’t.
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KATY!! I’ve missed you!
English versions of your links:
http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_22432.shtml
http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_22396.shtml
P.S. Did you know according to Tree we (and Claire) are in a Club? 😯
What night is club-night then, I’ve obviously been missing out. 🙁
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The Cantoria video (Paradise Lost) is now on YouTube, dubbed into Spanish. For those who won’t be seeing it on Spanish telly any time soon…
Part 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2LOAa0iUSk&feature=related
Part 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fD1e1gzYcM. -
@charlie wrote:
KATY!! I’ve missed you!
English versions of your links:
http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_22432.shtml
http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_22396.shtml
P.S. Did you know according to Tree we (and Claire) are in a Club? 😯
What night is club-night then, I’ve obviously been missing out. 🙁
Thanks charlie, I always forget about that excellent site 😳
Perhaps one of our spanish members could translate the comments from spaniards re. these articles (they would do it so much better than I) 😀
We are in a club, clubs has a double meaning here 😯 We could ask Mark for our own section, call it KCC 😉
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Charlie wrote:
…assume you are referring to Benito Gonzales, yes I read about that on Saturday. And boy, I wouldn’t like to be in his shoes.Obviously the company bankrupted,…But I would like to be in his shoes…
Charlie wrote:
That’s almost funny if it wasn’t so serious – your own Law Society doesn’t implement its own laws…Yes, is very serious,…to take out one person live, to take out one lawyer license,…you will need to go to court, it is not enough with your word,…but you can do it.
Claire wrote:(Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:04 am)
H Taylor, our lawyer has sued our original lawyer. We won the case, the judge condemned our first lawyer. Unfortunately for us, this lawyer has absolutely no respect for any laws or judgement and has appealed the verdict to refund the large sum of money we paid to them. Hopefully, the Judge will make them pay up in the endCharlie wrote:
None of us have EVER been rude and unfair in our comments about Spain, nor its people in general. Our only rude and fair comments refer to the ongoing corruption and the people involved…In my opinion … ONLY MY OPINION…this sentences bellow are very, very unfair and rude.
PD.-I just quoted a few, but there are hundreds,…•Katy Posts:
Most Spanish on the CDS would sell not only their “heritage” but throw their Abuela (grandmother) in too!
•Shakeel Posts:
Clearly, ripping off the stupid foreigner is very much part of Spain at all levels. Its not Taxi drivers of Malaga airport.
– Shakeel Posts :
” I am sure Spain will be content to blame the credit crunch for everything and never learn from it’s mistakes “
Its not part of Spanish psyche. On a molicule level I have seen Spaniards making the same mistake time after time. Their attitude of shrugging the situation which needs thought provocation, reflection and analysis etc is instantly ignored/forgotten with a it the pasa nada” attitude, will not make them learn
•Hudson Posts: 60
Clearly the needs of the PIGS are simply not at the forefront of Trichet’s thinking!
•Flosmichael Posts: 303
It is obvious that many Spaniards will put the blame on foreigners for many of their problems. The good news is that life will teach them a lesson
•Claire Posts: Posts 2021
Perhaps the EU powers should dig up the new motorway roads and infrastructure they have subsidized as payback for all of Spains injustices
•Shakeel Posts: 1576
Logan: I agree with you. These regions are so deeply entrenched in their dogma. ( As the Spanish Burro (donkey) mentality) i.e. you can beat S..t out of them but for their stubborness they will not move an cm.
•Marios Posts: 113
Now all they gotta do is find a way for the brits/foreigners to pay it for them,I know fine everyone of us for breathing spanish air.
•Flosmichael Posts: 303
Should I understand that the best way to buy non-lillegal property and to avoid future problems is to purchase in all-Spanish areas and speak only Spanish during the all buying process?
•goodstich44 Posts: 1183
Common sense still doesn’t stand for much in Spain does it?
•goodstich44 Posts: 1183
doubt it?. I think lies and corruption are so much part of the system, they encourage every scum bag to join the band wagon. Is it any wonder those who follow the rules, often fail to get justice?
•Flosmichael Posts: 303
Spain had a once-in-a-lifetime chance to get rich due to construction sector. Take that away and see that the Emperor has no clothes…
……(Just a few posts)Obviously we don’t understand each other…it is not going to happen…
it is OK, I don’t care,… but it is very embarrassing to me …and I will prefer to look to other side. -
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Tree,
A couple of days ago you assured us you would not be posting again. I can’t be the only one here who breathed a sigh of relief to read such joyous news. Since then you have continued doing so.
From this I can draw any one or mix of the following conclusions:
You are….
1) …. a compulsive liar.
2) …. someone with a hidden agenda.
3) …. a troll.
4) …. using recreational drugs.
5) …. in need of some professional help.If you plan to continue posting perhaps you’d care to explain your recent ‘final’ statement on here?
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And to add more unfairness and rudeness to the comments , this all said for people that is living in Spain and obviously are using the Spanish Healthy system, witch in this case is better than the UK healthy service.
http://www.euro.who.int/Document/E91713.pdf ( Data:World Health Organitation 2008)•Infant deaths (per 1000 live births): UK(5) Spain (4).
•Prenatal deaths (per 1000 live births): UK(8,1) Spain (4,7).
•Maternal deaths (per 100.000 live births): UK(8,0) Spain (4).
. -
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Obviously we don’t understand each other…it is not going to happen…
it is OK, I don’t care,…When speaking about the concept of CORRUPTION
You read…”X” very personal story…an autobiography.
And I read:
Transparency Internacional corruption Index (2007):
https//www. Transparency International.org
Denmark (9, 4), New Zealand and Sweden topped the list as cleanest countries of the world.
UK (8,4) is 12 at the world list. France (7,3) is 19º USA (7,2) is 20º
Spain (6,7) is 25 , Italy (5,2) is 41º Greece (4,6) is 56º.When speaking about the concept of FAIR SOSIETY.
You read…”X” very personal story… the same autobiography
And I read:
Distribution of family income – Gini index
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2172rank.ht
Denmark 24
Germany 27
Spain 32
France 32,7
Greece 33
UK 34
Poland 34,9
India 36,8
South Africa 65When speaking about the concept of ECONOMY.
You read…”X” very personal story… the same sad autobiography
And I read:
gross domestic product (GDP)-per capita
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/print_2004.html
Sweden 38.500 $ (2008)
UK 36.600 $ (2008)
Germany 34.800 $ (2008)
Spain 34.600 $ (2008)
France 32.700 $ (2008)
Italy 31.000 $ (2008)…and that have happen, and will happen, about any subject…the only thing that happen is that as much as I argue with you …you get more angry…and I get more tired of reading the same autobiography.
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brianc_li:
I will answer your questions:From this I can draw any one or mix of the following conclusions:
You are….
1) a compulsive liar. ……………………………………..No
2) someone with a hidden agenda.Yes, a useless bit of ATENCION!!!
3) a troll. ………………………………………………………………..a forest troll.
4) using recreational drugs. …………………………………..are you trying to sell any?
5) in need of some professional help……………………..Sorry, but You could not help to yourself. -
I am not sure where all of these posts are now going? It seems to be one person slagging off another.
What is the real point of this forum?
It seems to have gone beyond debate and gotten a tad personal.
Let’s get back to the main subject, Spanish property.
I still think Spain has very much to offer property buyers…much more than many other sunnier climates.
It goes without saying that there has been corruption at the highest levels and unfortunately that is still happening today.
Yes there needs to be some accountability.
How many buyers of Spanish property jumped at 120+% mortgages?
There was a ‘get as much as you can’ culture amongst everyone, buyers, sellers, agents, developers (town mayors) etc. Now of course its all gone tits up and all people want to do is shout how unfair it was.
If an elderly lady was flogging a car well below its value because she know no better, had no clue about cars or prices, would you offer her the going rate or bite her hand off?
How would you feel if you did buy it at her rate only to find that the cunning little woman knew more than she let on and you had actually purchased a pile of crap?
What if it was genuine and she later contacted you to say she made a mistake and wanted the balance for the going rate?
My point is that property in Spain was cheap. The exchange rate was good. Banks were lending over 100% and some people even bent the truth a little when it came to providing their financial status or commitments. It was a great time for buyers, sellers and developers. A large percentage of ALL of them made lots of money.
Things like this happen but it is far more widespread than just blaming Spain, its property market, the authorities and the agents.
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My useless hidden agenda:
To Brianc-li:
I tried to give you real information, to broken your stupid ghetto mentality.
That ghetto mentality is making you, too many times a quite unsuccessful business.Let’s go with an example:
• One Brit read the Katy (or any other..) “ghetto information” about the “gold eggs goose”…
• He decide to take some of the gold eggs… looks great.
• He open an English Pub (a classic),…. Direct target: the gold eggs goose.
• …in few months he/she is broken.
Who was the fault?
The business looks great…, he/she learn to put a beer in the first few hours…the market target is easy, just to put the hands under the goose,…the accountability is contracted to an outsider,…Why did not work?
Because that person believed Katy (or any other..) “ghetto information” ,…that “gold eggs goose” never existed,…is not only his fault, is that stupid “ghetto information”.
I wonder to how many have they wronged?.
For the Spaniards is amusing,…we don’t understand why you always make the same mistakes,…BUT REALY IS YOUR PROBLEM -
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Why do you guys spend so much time abusing each other – please stick the point of sharing ideas and experience and try to help each other. I used to value this forum as I felt that it was the best place to obtain advice – what on earth has it become – a forum for backbiting and snide comments that seem to be irrelevant. Ask yourselves the question as to whether you would act in the same way if you were in the same room together.
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Hi Inez
As you probably know if you have followed my rough justice thread, I have had the final body blow this week from the justice system who have delayed our case long enough to render our embargo useless as the developer is now in bankruptcy proceedings. Talk about laugh or i’ll cry!!
I couldn’t resist commenting on your ‘ehat’. The thread wasn’t making much sense anyway so I thought i’d join in the spirit of it!
Hope you and others on the forum are not in any danger with the fires? Sounds pretty grim in several areas.
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“Ask yourselves the question as to whether you would act in the same way if you were in the same room together”.
In the same room? 😯
If Tree verbalises the same way he writes I’d probably gag him (and hide his keyboard while I’m on a roll).
Mary Hinge, I would shake his/her hand for being so brave in buying not only in Polaris World but also in Bulgaria.
As for alanthornton……I’d pop a chill-pill in his gin and tonic.Maybe also a humour-pill – I doubt he would have got your Chernobyl fallout joke.
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Russ – I think this particular thread has gone this way as there is only so much one can say regarding a rather badly-made tv programme.
The good thing about SPI is despite the nonsense at times, when a serious question/thread does come along it is always answered and usually the questioner receives a helpful reply.
This is why those who attempt to disrupt SPI will never succeed.
Also, members with experience and/or knowledge to share – and with a true desire to help – stay around, the ‘disruptors’ always eventually get bored and move on. Remember the likes of mg and robinfuengirola?All one can do in the meantime is tread water and keep them amused (or ignore them) until someone next introduces a thread that is really worth contributing to.
In the last seven days, ten ‘normal’ threads have been running alongside the nonsense which shows that forum life still goes on regardless. And it always will. -
charlie.
great post from you.
its why this forum is going downhill, because you and your like cant debate, and you cant face the truth however hard it may be. so you throw insults at those who actually are trying to help those less fortunates here, that cant see there nose in front of there face.
so keep slagging the positive posters on here be my guest, but it wont get your money back. -
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“…….but it wont get your money back”.
Charlie wrote: (Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:01 pm)
…We did go to court and retrieved our money back with costsTree wrote: (Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:59 pm)
To Charlie:
YOU TOOK YOUR WAY TO TAKE ACTION,…AND YOU GET YOUR MONEY BACK……..At least Tree got a handle on that one. 🙄
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Hi Goodstitch, yes I saw your posts and really it beggars belief, I didnt really know what to say but unfortunately it is why ,many Spanish do shrug their shoulders as they are beaten down by the system.
The only hope lies with the youngsters who are not doctrinated by the Franco regime which still courses through many veins here and does explain why many people with influence act the way they do – its all a long story and directly related to the history of the country and the people.
Anyway, yes it is hot here, now punishable by severe penalties to throw a finished cigarette from the car window, even if extinguished.
Luckily I live near the coast, I do remember the bad fires in the 90s where people had to abandon their homes, and jumping in the port to cool off, 10 mins later you had steamed dry!!!
Hot dry wind today – cant complain though – it could be raining!!! 😆
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@alanrthornton wrote:
i did’nt want to bring up franco, thought it might be too heavy for some here
Thanks for your concern 🙂 but we often refer to Franco here. Use the Search button and input his name – you’ll come up with about 40 threads where he’s been mentioned/discussed.
Here you go, enjoy. It’s not heavy, I assure you:
http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/forums/search.php?mode=resultsWhen you’re new to a forum, rule no. 1……never assume. It could be misconstrued as pompous arrogance. But it’s really a case of just not bothering to check things before you write.
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@Inez wrote:
Anyway, yes it is hot here, now punishable by severe penalties to throw a finished cigarette from the car window, even if extinguished.
It’s been punishable by fines here in Greece for quite a few years now Inez – I’m sometimes horrified when I see cigs being thrown out of windows by the tourists from their rented cars, they’re just not aware/not thinking. I think all rented cars should have a sticker on the dash, warning/reminding them of the consequences of such action.
Another problem we have here, especially in the countryside, are discarded glass bottles. It’s enough to start a fire if lying on dry grass and the temps. hit the 40’s.
Then there are those who start fires purposely on land previously designated as not buildable because of forestry. If it’s torched, they can then get building permission. I think the law should be it’s still not buildable and they have to replant the trees, that would stop the madness.
It’s hot here too – off down to the beach for my second swim of the day. It’s tough in the Med!
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Inez wrote:
“The only hope lies with the youngsters who are not doctrinated by the Franco regime which still courses through many veins here and does explain why many people with influence act the way they do – its all a long story and directly related to the history of the country and the people.”I am young enough, so I NEVER was indoctrinated by the Franco system.
Franco dictator system was a conservative system.
Franco died the 1975, from that year to nowadays Andalusia (where you live, and the most corrupted region by long). has ALWAYS been governed by the left party. NEVER for the conservative party, neither a single week…That sentence you wrote is nonsense,…???? To any person who know just a little of the Spanish reality….will be a good joke.!!
With the same equation you are using I could arrive to any absurd conclusion:
• Germany is a very Fair society (Gini rate)…because Hitler.
• Spain have a good healthy system………………because Franco.
• UK have a bad Gini rate…………………………….because Queen Victoria.
• Italy is more corrupted …………………………….because Mussolini.DON´T BE SO FANTASTIC…things are not so simple…
It’s a long time I want to go out from the forum…Not because the insults, or to feel a little disruptive…But because I have found that you (as a group) prefer your own information…and I don’t understand you…for me your conclusions, sentences, etc,….are completely absurd.
… But unfortunate I have the bad habit to read the forum from time to time…and I can’t resist to replay when some one said something completely out of the reality.
I should stop to do it.Please Inez don’t take this post as an aggressive one, think that if I am replaying to you is to correct to you,…and in my opinion I have a better information than you.
If you are in August in Denia or near, I will invite you to a Gin-tonic…You will found that forest trolls are nice people.
Regards. -
Hi guys, sorry, sloped off for a swim!!
I dont think Franco is irrelevant, I didnt live here at the time but a spanish school teacher whom I used to meet thrice weekly for conversational practice (him for english me for spanish) told me horrific stories under Franco, especially as Andalucia was and still is considered the poorest region of Spain. Daughters being taken for payment of taxes and all sorts. A hateful time. I know his mausoleum is large dark and grey with spanish pilgrims taking delight to spit at his grave. Terrible. All dictators are and we are lucky not to have lived under any.
Anyway on a lighter note, Im sure many spanish know an awful lot more than I do, I know very little if anything about the times but I havent yet met anyone who enjoyed it, except for older people who look at the youth of today, see the increase in lack of respect and crimes (nowhere near as bad as some places) detest the breakdown of the family units, mothers working etc, but then agin times change and the world moves on. My kids upbringing is very different to mine, which was a lot different to my parents, progress I think its called!!!
Anyway, Charlie, I know its been illegal in Greece for years and I recall a fe years ago some land was torched in Spain, I think above Mijas in order to build, the request was not only turned down but the chap appested on suspicion of arson.
We get the idiots here too, bbquing or smoking in the campo!
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Inez wrote:
“I don’t think Franco is irrelevant,…”Speaking about Corruption is completely irrelevant.
Speaking about freedom or history not…Andalusia has ALWAYS been governed by the left party, and have the bigger corruption index.
The left party represent the more antagonist party to the Franco system….So obviously Andalucia is the region that have make a wider break with that pass doctrine.Another parts of Spain that don’t have corruption,(enjoy smaller rates than UK),…as well suffer the Franco system…???
So there is not any relation. But as a pretty tale was nice.
Regards -
In this forum is very usual something that should be very strange for rational and ethic people.
The use of victimize and the use of excuses for anything…• If some person is a robber should not be excuse to have been doctrinated by the Franco regime ….is a robber.
• If some person is a victim of fraud should not be excuse to be unfair and rude…is an unfair behavior.
• If same person sympathy with a victim should not be excuse to be unfair and a liar…is just an unfair liar.Sorry, I don’t buy that….But most of your group bought it.…and again is amusing… is another of the things that I don’t understand
but really I don’t care… -
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Tree – please you are trying and succeeding in winding people up. That’s very easy and cheap given the position many people find themselves in. You claim to be and and seem to be – (never thought that I would see a reference made to Gini coefficients) a very clever man.
Please don’t waste any more of your time on this, it’s futile and unhealthy for all concerned. There may be some important information in a thread that may help someone in a crises that is lost simply down to your interference.
I don’t understand why you want to spend your time doing this.
Thanks – Russ -
Tree, in reference to the Gini coefficient would you then agree the classical definition of G appears in the notation of the theory of relative mean difference:
– where x is an observed value, n is the number of values observed and x bar is the mean value.If the x values are first placed in ascending order, such that each x has rank i, then some of the comparisons above can be avoided and computation is quicker:
– where x is an observed value, n is the number of values observed and i is the rank of values in ascending order.
Glad I’ve got that off my chest.
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…If with that speech you are trying to said that Gini index is too complex to be used in the tread….You are wrong.
What should be wrong is to use …”X” very personal autobiography to explain any concept…that is absurd, unfair and irrational.
If you speak about a “Fair society” that is the index you should look in…and every body can understand it… I inserted a list, so every one can see that as much higher is the index as much unfair is the society. Every body know that India is not very fair society…That is not difficult and it is not useless information.
Take a look again:
Distribution of family income – Gini index
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2172rank.ht
Denmark 24
Germany 27
Spain 32
France 32,7
Greece 33
UK 34
Poland 34,9
India 36,8 -
To Russ W:
“…it’s futile and unhealthy for all concerned.”Please I am not so clever as you think,…if you have time, could you explain me that sentence. (I am not being ironic I would like an answer, please.)
In my point of view every thing I said is a very clear true, I argued all my sentences, while they (the Club members) could not argue successfully ANY,… neither ONE single sentence…
I work with crops production and irrigation projects and I am very rational…in my private live I never say a sentence that I can not prove or argue…If there is something that I don’t know or I am not sure them I just said “I don’t know”,… and never I am unfair, if I know that I am being unfair,…but I though this was for almost every person…so all this is a surprise to me.
With your sentence you are telling me that there is something that I should understand.
Please explain to me.
My regards.PD- Of course, never I use Gini index, but when the tread spoke about “Fair society” I remembered that index from class, that is all…could be the first time I use it in a debate.
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It seems to me that the debate is often pointless (such as this one) and creates unnecessary bad feeling that is neither good for yourself or other people.
I simply don’t understand what you or others are hoping to achieve as to me, most of the arguments are often personal and result in insults being thrown. Moreover it is going to be the case that neither side will win the argument as neither side will concede any points. Perhaps it would be wise to agree to disagree sometimes.
I am now envisaging the use of quotes or numerous examples that contradict the above. However as an occasional reader of this site I often find myself just skim reading as there seems less and less content that seems to be relevant to the Spanish property market.PS the use of the Gini index just gives an idea about relative poverty and to be honest with you the difference between the UK and Spain is not significant enough to warrant as a major point in commenting upon the differences in inequality between the UK and Spain. Particularly when it is the case that average income levels in the UK are higher than in Spain.
I believe Spain has a chronic unemployment figure at the moment (especially amongst young people). This is also starting to be seen in the UK as many school / college and university leavers are about to enter the job market.
Spain I believe is however a much better place on the whole for children to grow up. This has been shown in many quality of life indices. In addition I believe that the problem of child poverty in the UK should be a national concern. Finally in terms of relative poverty, another recent report in the UK also highlighted the fact that children from disadvantaged backgrounds in the UK have less chance now of entering the professions than at any time in the past 50 years. So it does seem to be true that there is a lot of social inequality in the UK. I’m not sure how Spain fairs in this respect?
Now I’ve just realised that I am also making a fairly long-winded post – I apologise for that but I am an Economics graduate and still have a keen interest in this type of thing!
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To Russ W:
I just tried to broken so many stereotypes,…that are making to too many English take the wrong decisions.
Helping people is great, and people should be proud doing this, but should be doing from a real side,…in other case at the same time you are helping, you are damaging another people interests and giving wrong information.
I tried to help, I have already said that the only possibility is a Collaboration aptitude and real information. The most dangerous thing is not ignorance,…but wrong information.
Most of the Spaniards when listening some of that absurd stereotypes,…just will replay,…YES. It’s the easer answer.
I don’t have any hidden agenda, Why should I hide anything?.As I have said this is my first experience in a forum, I read the rules of the forum but perhaps there are some rules that I don’t know…
These rude people (in my opinion) should know, that we mostly don’t care about “the gold eggs goose”, have a huge sanitary cost, looks to be quite unfair and rude, and don’t give gold eggs…So, Yes there is plenty of countries under the sun…between 40ºN (near New York) to 40ºS (near Sidney) is most of the world.
You all are welcome to Spain, but you should be more friendly.
In some rates UK is better than Spain; in another’s not. Spain It’s not a bad place… at the end that’s why so many Brits have chosen Spain…Finally I respect you,…and because you looks to be quite balanced… I will take your advice…I will try to stop to post in the forum (I never though I will get so much involved).
My regards.
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