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Doesn’t seem to be online but in todays Mail on Sunday supplement. “Goodbye to All That”….not Spain but the hell-hole that is now Dubai. Strange that some of the media is still trying to talk it up 🙄
Of the new Palm Island
“All I can see is a pile of builders rubble in stagnant looking sea water. Surrounded by barbed wire a few half completed buildings rise out of the water”
Someone else said “I expected naff but not this shoddiness tiles are falling off the wall……” Work visas cancelled in Dubai total 1500 a day. house prices fallen by as much as 70%. As for the medieval laws 😯
Ok not Spain but worth a mention!
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Lennox, no chopping off hands in the Emirates, just banged up for a very long time, the sentence nearly always accompanied by 100 lashes or so. There are a few directors in Spain I wouldn’t mind seeing that happen to.
The men who do the lashes (it’s always a man, even if the person being lashed is a woman) are supposed to hold a Koran under their upper arm to prevent them being able to raise their arm too high, but they rarely do.The Dubai Palm Island is being constructed by Nakheel which is a state-owned company – which is tantamount to saying it’s owned by the ruling family of Dubai. I wouldn’t relish attempting taking this company to court over unacceptable workmanship, delays as per contract etc.
Example of justice when I worked out there during the 80’s. A friend of mine was tootling along a deserted main road on the outskirts of Dubai when a ‘local’ (some distant cousin of the Royal Family) shot out of a side street without stopping/looking and crashed into my friend’s car. It went to court and needless to say the result was my friend was found guilty.
Arabic logic/reason for ruling: If my friend hadn’t been there at the time, the accident wouldn’t have happened, so it was his fault.Think I almost prefer Spanish justice.
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It stated in the report that missing a credit card or bank loan payment is a criminal offence. People are imprisoned and not freed until the debt is paid.
The reporter viewed an apartment for cerca £400,000. He said
“The pillars in reception area aren’t real marble. Dressing room has wardrobes from the Argos school…The beach is a thin strip of sand on murky water. The view an abandoned building site…..no trees, no nature”
He was also shown a video of Michael Owen raving about the place 😆
I know 2 different families who have returned.
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My posting does not concern the right or wrongs of the law. When one decides to live, work, travel in a Country one has to accept their laws. Dont like them dont go there.
If the Directors of Aifos & the likes were locked up until they had not cleared their debts, thousands including some forum users would not have suffered.
One may agree or disgree with a particular justice system. At least its put into practise.
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Shakeel… I lived in the Middle East (Bahrain) for five years and travelled back and forth for another 5 years some 20 years ago. I think you will find that there is one law for the foreigner and another for the national.
Similarly now, and much is made of the law and protection of rights there, but in reality… many times worse than Spain IMHO.
And if you guys want to know even more check out this Rod Liddle article in the Times…
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6716543.ece
And Shakeel as for the rest Bulgaria et al, well they all going to give Spain a good name. We have had our problems, and goodness knows I can only imagine the frustration of Goodsitch last week, and I would hope that that process finds some solution for him, but at the end of the day, there isn’t any better process in Dubai… oooh no!
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Hi Chris,
I am aware of the differences in the various middle East Countries. They are far from democratic, human rights etc & they are not EU member Countries.I have never travelled there nor wish to do so & needless to say did not buy anything there, even though I was offered the Palm in its early days at a price that I would have still be in positive territory despite the substantial loss of value.
Some of my reasons for not buying there werem as listed by various forum users.
Finally in any society not all have access to justice or the right justice, local or not.
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Dubai seems to be the flavour of the day, someone also just sent me this:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article6728160.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=1185799
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Well for better or worse, they do say there are 1 million Britons who have bought in Spain, that’s a lot of people, and over a lot of years and yes in comparison to all these other locations, I think it certainly comes up trumps despite its many faults and the travails that a number of individuals have suffered these past few years.
I don’t see Dubai bouncing back for a while yet.
As for Spain, I think the worst is over and don’t shoot me for saying it but the best may be yet to come.
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Chris
Spains many faults are well documented now, and after my experience I would say don’t touch it with a bargepole. I know many have faired much better, but until they sort out the overbuilds, the poor quality, the corruption/lack of regulation etc, then I don’t feel Spain deserves a recovery. As for justice, well just prey you don’t need it!! The laws might be there, but far to often are just not implemented and far to many are left high and dry at the hands of a toothless or corrupt justice system. At least buyers now are far better informed, but that could be a double edged sword without very overdue change.
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@goodstich44 wrote:
Chris
Spains many faults are well documented now, and after my experience I would say don’t touch it with a bargepole. I know many have faired much better, but until they sort out the overbuilds, the poor quality, the corruption/lack of regulation etc, then I don’t feel Spain deserves a recovery. As for justice, well just prey you don’t need it!! The laws might be there, but far to often are just not implemented and far to many are left high and dry at the hands of a toothless or corrupt justice system. At least buyers now are far better informed, but that could be a double edged sword without very overdue change.
I can’t say anything about your experience Goodsitch, it is so unfair, it is so wrong and you are a victim of a collection of circumstances that have thus far been completely against you.
But as you say, many have fared much better, and I know many people not just in property terms who have found the system and laws here to have been completely in their favour.
I have also heard of awful mis-selling, lost deposits and properties in the whole buy to let field in the UK and people without much recourse there.
Goodness knows what those people who were so well heeled and assured of their investments in Madoff feel in terms of the justice and financial regulatory system in the oft lauded USA.
Your view is entirely understandable, and I hope it will be addressed in due course, but I do think, that better times are ahead and I can’t help but be positive about the future.
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@Chris McCarthy wrote:
@goodstich44 wrote:
Chris
but I do think, that better times are ahead and I can’t help but be positive about the future.Any reason why better times are ahead, Chris? And what will better times look like? A significant increase in house prices? How much of an increase and from what base? Are there a specific set of statistics that you follow? Where will the people come from? The UK? Russia? Spain? Which areas will they choose to live in?
Do you know of a specific property that you could demonstrate is good value giving purchase and rental figures? I’d love to know the investment argument rather than a feeling of sentiment or lifestyle choice. TIA
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I think the only buyers out there at the moment are those bent on making a lifestyle change i.e. wanting to move to Spain permanently to live.
Any buyers looking to buy purely for investment purposes are simply not in the market and will be biding their time for quite a while yet. They formed a huge proportion of purchasers perpetuating the Spanish property bubble. Now the bubble’s gone, they have to.I also believe new ‘investors’ in Spain in the future will be coming from the likes of China and Russia, as is already happening here in Greece. And the money is big. One Russian walked into a friend’s agency looking for a piece of land to build a house, his budget for the land only was up to 800,000 euros.
Though the Scandinavians are showing an ever-growing presence, especially the Norweigians for some reason.
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@mike wrote:
Any reason why better times are ahead, Chris? And what will better times look like? A significant increase in house prices? How much of an increase and from what base? Are there a specific set of statistics that you follow? Where will the people come from? The UK? Russia? Spain? Which areas will they choose to live in?
Do you know of a specific property that you could demonstrate is good value giving purchase and rental figures? I’d love to know the investment argument rather than a feeling of sentiment or lifestyle choice. TIA
Hi Mike,
I think Charlie has already answered this, by stating that indeed any buyers out there are buying for lifestyle purposes. And you know, that is why the vast majority of people have indeed bought here over the past 40 years.
It is why they will always buy here.
Shakeel may very well be right about a straightforward property purchase decision in choice between UK and Spain, if anyone were buying a property purely for its asset status, I would possibly buy in UK myself, indeed I realised am looking to do so shortly, but then as it happens I am also looking at a property here later this week.
As to better times ahead, I think that people should remember the market here had been going down since 2004 in real terms, just that people didn’t really click to that until 2007 when it had been through all manner of self inflicted trauma before the ‘credit crisis and world recesssion’.
Yet there are stunning things happening particularly on the Costa del Sol with the expansion of the airport and upcoming coastal railway, which will yet again provide an incredible infrastructure and tourism boost, much as happened after the last recession. With all its attendant benefits and feel good factor.
And well, simple things do just get better, I am a golfer and am fortunate to have bought a golf share in a good club 15 years ago, but many of my pals do not have a share and they faced spending €100 a round not so long ago, now they can play at say La Cala Resort for €33 each including a buggy… a small thing or a major improvement in value, use and appreciation?
Everyone and every business across the board will now have to become competitive and offer genuine service and real value or they will simply go out of business.
Then… we come back to the oft debated topic… when is the bottom of the market? If it is now, then anyone buying now today is getting real value, is getting ahead of the game, will not suffer any loss, will at some point see capital growth instead, and that engenders better times ahead.
However, I would not advise you on a specific property without knowing your lifestyle aspirations and appropriate budget, your intended use and objectives from the purchase and as to rental income that would be entirely dependent on the property and its location etc.
So I can’t help in that regard, save to say, that if you were looking for pure investment and return, then I would go back to what Shakeel said and yes buy in the UK, but of course stay away from the ‘Buy to Let Become a Property Millionaire Clubs’ if they are still in existence.
Me, I am associated with a group of people who sell homes to people who want to buy them on the coast, and want to buy the best available, at the best price and get the best use ensuring they are certainly affordable.
And Katy asked Fuengi in a post over the past few days how he found the market was going, my personal understanding is the people I am long associated with have had an incredibly good month so far, the best by a long way for a long time.
One month doesn’t make a whole market upturn, but is certainly better times by far than of recent years. And just may be an indicator that the clients who for the past year have been offering 50% below asking price, but getting nowhere, have now decided to make an offer and buy because they see that prices now will not go lower, and don’t want to miss out if they do go higher, or have simply decided… lets not wait any longer, we could be sitting on that terrace sipping a glass of now reduced wine and going off to play golf at a now reduced price in the morning.
This particular ‘Paradise’ will reinvent and reinvigorate itself in the natural course of events and over I predict; a stable, hopefully pleasant and uneventful period of time.
It is a nice place to live as many people on here also do testify and against any other location discussed on this forum in comparsion.
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@mike wrote:
Do you know of a specific property that you could demonstrate is good value giving purchase and rental figures? I’d love to know the investment argument rather than a feeling of sentiment or lifestyle choice. TIA
(going to keep this vague i don’t want it construed as advertising)
Yes.
a large spacious duplex penthouse. Price per sqm works out to 1461€. normal selling price (in current market) 2400€. Most properties prices at 3000€ sqm (currently unrealistic).Rental yield should be: 6.29% (based on a slightly persimistic figure for a long term rental)
Not a great figure by UK standards from what i am lead to beleive but very good for down here.This is a residential example of course, returns on comercial units can be quite interesting, although the outlay for freeholds can be quite high
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@goodstich44 wrote:
……..are there two Spains?. Doesn’t sound much like the current one in deep shite.
I rather think there is one Spain, just as there is one glass, with water contained at the mid point, thereafter being viewed as either half full or half empty.
Just different perspectives and that is what keeps the forum going round.
And I rather think the UK is in deep shite also.
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@shakeel wrote:
Hi Chris, I think that you better not agree with me any more. We would than construed to be having an agenda. Cheers.
I know Shakeel, but you must be having an effect on me.
I even asked Mark to remove a thread I recently started on creating a client charter because of an insightful post you made, which then simply made the thread redundant and me feel a bit silly for having started it.
So it looks like your winning so far, it is me coming over to your agenda it seems not you to mine.
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Just came back from the notary (Marbella – Requena) and the place was packed with buyers signing purchases – well, I saw five groups with their agent (tongues hanging out) – also, another positive sign in the last month is that the streets are full of tourists – mainly Middle eastern, Eastern European, Russian etc all brandishing wallets and driving big fancy cars… restaurants, bars and the posh chiringuitos are packed to the rafters as well !! What I find most interesting is the client mix – thank god for our new markets giving marbella a golden summer !!! Good times ahead???
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“I even asked Mark to remove a thread I recently started on creating a client charter because of an insightful post you made, which then simply made the thread redundant and me feel a bit silly for having started it “
Nothing to feel silly about, you in good faith started something. I just felt that we have been here before & you could have put a lot of time and effort & taken some flack in the process with not much to show for..
” So it looks like your winning so far “
It not a question of winning or losing nor some grown up ego. In my view winners are those who learn from other peoples experience. I lay out my experience and within reasons back it up with what ever ammunition that I have. If forum users starts getting silly about it. I dont let them suck me into arguments.” it is me coming over to your agenda it seems not you to mine”
I dont have an agenda, I know UK & Spain both very well & understand the ethos & sensitivities and priorities of people. I would just like the people to enjoy & live their life with fulfillment.
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@Chris McCarthy wrote:
Hi Mike,
I think Charlie has already answered this, by stating that indeed any buyers out there are buying for lifestyle purposes. And you know, that is why the vast majority of people have indeed bought here over the past 40 years.
It is why they will always buy here.
I agree that the lifestyle attracts many but given the vast supply of property compared to those currently wanting the lifestyle I think it will be much more affordable in the future. More importantly, imo, in the future we will have a better idea of which developments to avoid as some of them deteriorate due to lack of people living there or communities struggle to collect the maintenance charges.
@Chris McCarthy wrote:
Shakeel may very well be right about a straightforward property purchase decision in choice between UK and Spain, if anyone were buying a property purely for its asset status, I would possibly buy in UK myself, indeed I realised am looking to do so shortly, but then as it happens I am also looking at a property here later this week.
I wouldn’t buy in either country myself right now. In fact I am selling in the UK at the moment. Hopefully the sale will go through in the next month but then I am going to stick the money in the bank and sit on a beach somewhere for a year (not Spain, too expensive).
@Chris McCarthy wrote:
As to better times ahead, I think that people should remember the market here had been going down since 2004 in real terms, just that people didn’t really click to that until 2007 when it had been through all manner of self inflicted trauma before the ‘credit crisis and world recesssion’.
I couldn’t see what the market was doing in 2004, it seemed too opaque. It is one of the problems I thought when considering Spanish property as an investment. Even now I think the official index shows a drop of rougly 6% from peak.
@Chris McCarthy wrote:
Yet there are stunning things happening particularly on the Costa del Sol with the expansion of the airport and upcoming coastal railway, which will yet again provide an incredible infrastructure and tourism boost, much as happened after the last recession. With all its attendant benefits and feel good factor.
EU money. That’s gone now.
@Chris McCarthy wrote:
And well, simple things do just get better, I am a golfer and am fortunate to have bought a golf share in a good club 15 years ago, but many of my pals do not have a share and they faced spending €100 a round not so long ago, now they can play at say La Cala Resort for €33 each including a buggy… a small thing or a major improvement in value, use and appreciation?
Everyone and every business across the board will now have to become competitive and offer genuine service and real value or they will simply go out of business.
Well, Eygpt was the centre of the universe once. I wouldn’t assume growth in pertuity
@Chris McCarthy wrote:
Then… we come back to the oft debated topic… when is the bottom of the market? If it is now, then anyone buying now today is getting real value, is getting ahead of the game, will not suffer any loss, will at some point see capital growth instead, and that engenders better times ahead.
But why would the bottom be now?
@Chris McCarthy wrote:
However, I would not advise you on a specific property without knowing your lifestyle aspirations and appropriate budget, your intended use and objectives from the purchase and as to rental income that would be entirely dependent on the property and its location etc.
So I can’t help in that regard, save to say, that if you were looking for pure investment and return, then I would go back to what Shakeel said and yes buy in the UK, but of course stay away from the ‘Buy to Let Become a Property Millionaire Clubs’ if they are still in existence.
I used to ask the town corredor if he had anything for sale at €50K and he used to laugh. When he stops laughing then I’ll be interested.
@Chris McCarthy wrote:
Me, I am associated with a group of people who sell homes to people who want to buy them on the coast, and want to buy the best available, at the best price and get the best use ensuring they are certainly affordable.
And Katy asked Fuengi in a post over the past few days how he found the market was going, my personal understanding is the people I am long associated with have had an incredibly good month so far, the best by a long way for a long time.
I’m sure there is still a market and I’m sure you’ll make the best of it.
@Chris McCarthy wrote:
One month doesn’t make a whole market upturn, but is certainly better times by far than of recent years. And just may be an indicator that the clients who for the past year have been offering 50% below asking price, but getting nowhere, have now decided to make an offer and buy because they see that prices now will not go lower, and don’t want to miss out if they do go higher, or have simply decided… lets not wait any longer, we could be sitting on that terrace sipping a glass of now reduced wine and going off to play golf at a now reduced price in the morning.
This particular ‘Paradise’ will reinvent and reinvigorate itself in the natural course of events and over I predict; a stable, hopefully pleasant and uneventful period of time.
It is a nice place to live as many people on here also do testify and against any other location discussed on this forum in comparsion.
It’s a lovely place to live and far better than the alternatives, I agree. I believe that the natural course of events will include a period when all hope is lost in Spanish property as an investment and that is when I think it would be best to start poking around seeing what bargains there are to be had. I’d say a few years after the UK property market has recovered, until then we’ll see these little spurts of optimism when banks and governemnts are throwing the kitchen sink at their economic problems and property shows brief signs of life as a consequence.
Thanks for your thought, Chris. I agree that Spain will always be an attractive place to buy but I just can’t see it happening now.
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Mike wrote:
“I used to ask the town corredor if he had anything for sale at €50K and he used to laugh. When he stops laughing then I’ll be interested”One packet of cigarettes (cheap ones) – 3,15 euros.
Glass of sangria ( no fashion bar) – 2,00 euros.
Milk coffee (no toast) – 1,20 euros.Total day 6,35 —- Total year 2.317,7 euros.
This small luxury consumes can be afford for everyone…a teenager spend far away more in the weekends…
Sorry Mike, at this moment you are not real
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Spaniards don’t drink sangria in bars. It is correct though if you are a smoker and a drinker Spain comes out tops. What I find is that for el cheapo wine the price is better in Spain. For better quality wine the UK can be cheaper. I bought some “Blossom Hill” wine in spain (not great). About 7 euro, in the UK £4! A ribero del duero at 14 euro here is £12 in the UK.
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Hello Katy:
I don’t smoke,…(Well, I do sometimes in the weekends nights…)
I only drink outside of home, or inviting friends to home.
I drink sangria in summer, it’s becoming fashion (Good marketing?)… is a barrel sangria (only about 4º or 5º ) very refreshing, not too sweat, not too heavy, not too much gas,…I found it quiet nice for star the weekend nights or as a soft drink…I really don’t drink too much.
Yesterday night I was with a friend and we take a couple each, you know how hot is the summer here,…and that was the price.
But that was not the point I tried to explain,…I could post the price of a cinema ticket, a beer or any thing that really is not necessary and it’s not real expensive…I tried to explain that a property for 50K is not real…I hope I have explain my point…anyway the prices for VPO (protected houses for low income people) are public, and are much more expensive than that.
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I agree with Tree – its the same in the UK. House prices have fallen but at the moment there are many cash buyers looking for bargains which are very hard to find.
The main consideration IMO is to look at the affordability of housing and as Tree is indicating; a 50,000 euro house is very, very affordable even in this present climate and not a likely reality. -
@tree wrote:
But that was not the point I tried to explain,…I could post the price of a cinema ticket, a beer or any thing that really is not necessary and it’s not real expensive…I tried to explain that a property for 50K is not real…I hope I have explain my point…anyway the prices for VPO (protected houses for low income people) are public, and are much more expensive than that.
RegardsMaybe you should ask mike what he would buy and where, if/when he buys in Spain. A quick google search brings up a range of properties at that price.
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If you are prepared to look inland there are plenty of places at under 50k. Here is one such:
http://www.propertyindex.com/HS1513607/3-bedroom-Townhouse-in-Alozaina-Málaga/102/
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@tree wrote:
Mike wrote:
One packet of cigarettes (cheap ones) – 3,15 euros.
Glass of sangria ( no fashion bar) – 2,00 euros.
Milk coffee (no toast) – 1,20 euros.Total day 6,35 —- Total year 2.317,7 euros.
This small luxury consumes can be afford for everyone…a teenager spend far away more in the weekends…
Sorry Mike, at this moment you are not real
How much would a typical person earn per year in a typical inland Andalucian town? If it were €10K a year I would be surprised, especially with the construction work largely gone. I would think that with the basics so expensive it will leave less money in the pocket to pay for shelter and it must make buying a place impossible. That was before the banks got nervy and started demanding a significant deposit on proposed purchases.
But I agree, at the moment I am not real, but I am prepared to wait 😉
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@Fuengi wrote:
Maybe you should ask mike what he would buy and where, if/when he buys in Spain. A quick google search brings up a range of properties at that price.
I was looking at property in towns inland in Andalucia. I haven’t been looking recently but I noticed a place advertised on here (I think) at €60K recently and given that we are hardly at the bottom of this crash I think there will be more and that if I look hard I will get my €50K property should I choose. I plan to look again in another year and in the meantime I hope to find alternatives for my money. South America, anyone?
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@brianc_li wrote:
If you are prepared to look inland there are plenty of places at under 50k. Here is one such:
http://www.propertyindex.com/HS1513607/3-bedroom-Townhouse-in-Alozaina-Málaga/102/
LOL! It needs a little work, doesn’t it?
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Mike,
I´m firmly in your camp. That said I don´t think 50k for a 80 sq meter, two bed on the coast is ever again going to be seen. What I do think is that (asking) prices of circa 2-2.5k per m sq, which is what I´m currently seeing on the CDS, are ridiculous.
It seems that some properties that are shifting although, by all measures volumes are very low. Those that are are realistically priced, as per the example in Fuengi´s earlier post. My own feeling is that it is only when the majority of vendors pass the denial stage and start pricing their properties realistically that we will see some normality in the market.
In the meantime I, as one of those ´lifestyle´ purchasers, am keeping my money tucked away. As no doubt are many others.
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Mike, I should add that I looked at Brazil recently as one of my sisters lives there. The north coast areas (Natal, Salvador) are stunning. Tropical climate, largely unspoilt, friendly people, prices of everything a fraction of those in Europe. You can buy a spacious beachfront villa for under 50k euro.
You get a real sense that the market there will boom over the next 10 years or so. I think capital gains of 10-15% per year are certainly achievable.What put me off was two things:
– It is incredibly difficult to get money back out of the country. This is never mentioned by those that are selling property but is a fact. The last house sale my sister was involved in the real money changed hands in Ireland. Only a token amount was swapped in Brazil.
– Health care availability and cost. I´m pushing fifty and now have to be aware of such things.
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@brianc_li wrote:
Mike,
I´m firmly in your camp. That said I don´t think 50k for a 80 sq meter, two bed on the coast is ever again going to be seen. What I do think is that (asking) prices of circa 2-2.5k per m sq, which is what I´m currently seeing on the CDS, are ridiculous.
It seems that some properties that are shifting although, by all measures volumes are very low. Those that are are realistically priced, as per the example in Fuengi´s earlier post. My own feeling is that it is only when the majority of vendors pass the denial stage and start pricing their properties realistically that we will see some normality in the market.
In the meantime I, as one of those ´lifestyle´ purchasers, am keeping my money tucked away. As no doubt are many others.
I think the wait for a good property on the coast at €50K will be a long one. However, I agree that at some point something will have to give and some good bargains will be had. I think the crash will be uneven and that is why I think it wise to be flexible on location and even which country you wish to live in.
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