July 21, 2006 at 10:21 am #52028
This is my first message on this site.
I ‘bought’ offplan at Balcones de Riviera with Ocean View. As they have now settled out of court with Aifos, Aifos agreeing to recompense all buyers, has ANYBODY had contact with Ocean View/Aifos re this.
I have emailed Ocean View but needless to say have not had a reply.
Any info would be greatly appreciated
July 21, 2006 at 10:47 am #64050
As you probably know the situation in and around the Marbella area is very confused at the moment. The current Mayoress, deputy Mayoress and en ex-Mayor of Marbella town councill are all in jail without the possibility of parole on planning irregularity charges. The latest arrests have been the top two people from AIFOS who have also been sent directly to jail by the judge hearing the case.
My understanding of the Ocean View/Aifos out of court settlement is that rather than ‘recompense all buyers’ as you state, the settlement actually forces Aifos to supply Ocean View’s clients with legally constructed properties.
I must stress this is only my interpretation of what I have read in the press and others closer to the story may be able to help further.
July 21, 2006 at 11:46 am #64051
Thanks Andy for you quick reply
It’s all a mess isn’t it? All I want is some communication from somebody about this situation.
I really appreciate your message.
July 21, 2006 at 12:53 pm #64052
There are two ‘parties’ who should be helping you with information right now – that is Ocean View and your lawyer.
Surely Your lawyer can contact Ocean View and demand answers???
This is why you pay him, to look after your interests!
We spent months pestering our agent and our lawyer for news re. our problem on another development, only to get blanked.
Telephone calls not returned. E-mails not answered – or answered with such patronising gobbledygook, it was obviously just buying time for the developer.
You may have read on this forum that there are many of us who found that not only our agents but also our lawyers were in cahoots with the developers.
I am going to ask the obvious two questions:
1)What is your lawyer saying in all of this???
2) Was your lawyer recommended by Ocean View?
Most important you need to see if your lawyer is really on your side. If not, it is imperative you find yourself a new, recommended, independent lawyer.
I do just hope you have a Bank Guarantee. If you don’t have a copy in your file, ask your lawyer for a copy.
And know that you are not legally obliged to accept an alternative apartment in an alternative development if you don’t want to, regardless of what Oceanview and Aifos have cooked up between them.
It may well be, Jill, that – especially considering the vast sums of money you have involved – you will need to go over. Demand meetings with Ocean View and meet with your lawyer. This is what we did, and the only way we managed to get answers and get things moving.
In our personal experience, lawyers and agents can avoid returning e-mails and telephone calls for months when it suits!
Pester them for answers and if no joy – go over.
July 21, 2006 at 1:41 pm #64059
For those who speak spanish there is an interesting topic on this forum
http://www.otrademocraciaesposible.net/foros/v … php?t=3333
Many complaints. Some developments have been left without gardens/pools and some clients 2 beds instead of 3!!
July 21, 2006 at 8:17 pm #64066
I couldn’t resist posting this one which is a rough translation of the link that Katy provided.
A bit out of date (posted Jan 2004) but more relevant than ever!!
😉 😉 😉
1-Daily fraud because they sell without insurance. They do not give a bank guarantee.
2-…because they sell without license, which is logical, so they often begin to sell with just the project plans!
3- …bec. they sell without re-parceling the land and you even get used to not being the owner of the land
4-… because in the contract they state that the property is complete when the works are finished (Certificado de Fin de Obras)
5- …because, given their provisional character of the plans on which the apartments are sold, one can be faced with a situation where rooms have disappeared from their homes.
6- … bec. they give an interest of 3.75% when the law of 1968, says that 6% is the legal interest 🙄
7-…. when they do not begin to build -systematically- until they have sold 60% of the dvlpt
8- …. when years pass to fulfill your part of the contract and they have not moved a brick 😈
9- …. when they do not say to you in what bank and nº of account is your money
10- … when they do not pay any attention to the letters to construct and continue marketing the dvlpt with your money and do not say anything to you
11-. …when they do not give any explanation in writing
12- …when almost three years have passed since you ‘ve purchased and there is nothing not even a license, but they enjoy the interest on your money
13 – …when they do not fulfill their part of the contract
14- …when they say to you that you can resell before completing the contract and that is a lie
15-….when they show contempt for the buyer with their great power, arrogance, vanity, vanity and lack of respect, making us think that we are idiots and using our money TO SPECULATE VILELY.
16- …when they publish a magazine to ‘pet’ the estate agents that collaborate with them; and it is that SAME PUBLICATION that is SUBSIDISED BY THE JUNTA DE ANDALUCIA. The same Junta de Andalucia that we 80% of the Andalusian people finance. We finance those swindlers, friends of the Junta de Andalucia.
17 – (…)when they use the ‘qualification’ of apartahotel in their developments, first to harm the co-efficients of the land with planning permission of the PGOU and consequently second, so that part of your house (swimming pool, garden, vestibule) will be their property and not yours. And as you are an apartahotel they load you with quotas of ‘brutal’ maintenance of the urbanization, sometimes exceeding 700 euros.
SWINDLERS, THIEVES, SWINDLERS, SPECULATORS, SWINDLERS YOUR HOUR HAS ARRIVED. (YES! Earlier this morning! 😆 😆 😆 ) TO ALL OF YOU WHO WANT TO BUY SOMETHING FROM THEM EXCERCISE GREAT CARE. INFORM YOURSELVES WELL IN ADVANCE. MAKE SURE THAT THEY LET YOU AVE A COPY OF THE CONTRACT BEFORE YOU SIGN SO THAT YOU CAN READ IT IN PEACE. BE VERY CAREFUL.
July 22, 2006 at 9:16 am #64067
They are not the only development company that applies to. Put the name of our developer and it fits their profile to a T! 😈 They all sing from the same hymn sheet!
July 22, 2006 at 12:26 pm #64070
Good on you Katerina!
Good on you all, Every word you all say is 100% correct
It is only the genuine ,decent, hardworking people who are only trying to
fulfill their dream by buying a property which they think is genuine, only to find out later that everything is a BIG Fat Lie!!
We are the ones to suffer not them.!!
Boiling them in oul is too good for them all.
July 22, 2006 at 4:52 pm #64076
For all of you (incl. ourselves) who feel exactly as the posting above, click on this link to externalise your feelings!!!
July 22, 2006 at 4:57 pm #64078
it still amazes me, that with all the bad publicity, and several of the low life at the top of the chain either in jail or facing jail sentances, most of the lawyers on the CDS still seem reluctant to take them on, even though they are flouting the law and constantly breaching contracts!
Is the legal system in spain starting to recognise this company for what they are, and making them treat innocent victims with respect and give them the financial justice they deserve?, not much evidence yet, but why?, now the truth is out. ………
in other areas of the law. if someone was accused and then proved guilty of murder in broad daylight, you would assume the next person they attemped to murder in broad daylight, would have a strong case against them and the victims lawyer have a somewhat easy job.
July 22, 2006 at 10:21 pm #64082
Well, its also alleged in the above link that they have good “connections” with the Junta de andalucía, corruption has long tentacles 🙄
July 23, 2006 at 12:40 am #64083
When I read the second article that Claire posted (“Two articles to read”) re. the terrible story of the elderly couple, and the wife wrote:
“We have now been informed by our new young lawyer (Diego) that the other legal company will not answer any communications and therefore will now not take any responsibility leaving us to find this enormous amount of money. There have also been other legal costs. At the last meeting with Diego he seemed to have been “got at” and seemed to be pulling away from us saying the other company was too big and as we were foreigners we needed to be afraid if we took them on as they had big arms and knew where we lived.” unquote
This to me smacks of mafia tactics….
……and with so many millions (billions?) of euros being involved on the CDS, IMO the temptation re. corruption filters right through the property-purchase system.
July 23, 2006 at 7:49 am #64084
GETTING JUSTICE SHOULD NOT DEPEND ON NATIONALITY. IMO.
July 23, 2006 at 8:17 am #64085
The legal profession don’t like taking action against other lawyers/ legal firms.
A query I had in UK re;bad legal advice and I was told very bluntly that requesting taking them to court was not an option.
A closed shop.
Surely Spain has a law society that this couple could complain to.
July 23, 2006 at 8:38 am #64086
The Collegio de Abogados. The complaint has to be written in Spanish and it takes F O R E V E R for them to investigate it! Again, they tend to “protect” their students rather than condemn them.
I have been in contact with a couple who have made a complaint against our original firm of lawyers. It has been going on for approx 18 months. It is still not resolved! This company has had so many reports against them that the people that give them their indemnity insurance have been working alongside the Collegio to investigate the cases. We will be adding to that list of people making a complaint very soon!
July 23, 2006 at 8:47 am #64087
The fact that lawyers do not like taking other lawyers to task, and the fact that it should not make any difference if one is a foreigner or not
– I totally agree with.
But it is this bit:-
At our last meeting with Diego…..saying…….we needed to be afraid if we took them on as they had big arms and knew where we lived.”
that astounds me – I find this frightening.
Not only a total lack of moral fibre, but also
they are behaving like the MAFIA !
July 23, 2006 at 9:07 am #64088
so, virtually every angle of complaint at any level either reaches a dead end, a closed shop or a possible solution so slow or so expensive as to not really make it viable for most. This is obviously not lost on the dodgy developers, so what can be done to force change? The arrests at the top are a step in the right direction, but how long before they have a positive effect on us victims who at some stage have to trust someone in the system?
July 23, 2006 at 12:07 pm #64089
One has to face the fact that even in UK victims remain remain victims.
In civilized societies this should never happen.
Beginning to wonder how civilised we are when crime does pay.
July 23, 2006 at 12:56 pm #64090
in my experience, though we have more than our fair share of sharks here, if you get ripped off in England, there are quite a few citizens rights and consumer goods organisations that can and will help if required, i have had to threaten one or two companies with the law and the small claims courts over the years, but i have always felt that when i know i am in the right, as long as i stick to my guns, i stand a good chance of getting justice, most companies i’ve dealt with here, don’t want bad publicity or a CCJ against them, and will back off at this point. Sadly, rightly or wrongly, i don’t have this confidence in the spanish system, i feel like a bit of a mug, who assumed that being in the right meant that sooner or later you would get to speak to the right people and get a fair result…….how wrong could i be? I’ve never felt so conned without a safety net. I have always loved spain and it’s people, and i know that the one’s that are making peoples lives a misery are a very small proportion, and in many cases working with english partners who are just as guilty, but my love affair with spain is fading fast sadly! I wont give up though, i shall fight till the bitter end, we have to believe justice is possible.
July 23, 2006 at 1:44 pm #64091
Goodstitch 44 ,
Having worked in UK for some years trying to assist people with various problems I can assure you that the consumer organisations etc there are only advisory for the victims.
Sure, they will go after the perpetrators if and when sufficient evidence is accumulated but as you mentioned the alleged victim has to threaten county court action. If you know your legal rights this usually works .
However as an individual ,not a governing body, if threat is carried through and CC action taken even if case is found in favour of claimant there is absolutely no guarantee that the claimant will ever get what they wanted without further legal costs and hassle and when in a foreign land up against the BIG boys the problem is even worse.
This is why I stated crimes pays !!!!
and why ????
…most people just give in because the emotional and financial hassle is too much.
When more people are willing to unite to fight for their rights these crooks might think twice .
( or is that wishful thinking) So don’t give up.
July 23, 2006 at 9:43 pm #64095
as you say it may be wishful thinking, but the options are worse. We are not experts, so we put our trust in someone who is, and then we are told that the person we trust is not in any better position to put things right than we are. Is it any wonder corruption/crime pays.
July 24, 2006 at 10:47 am #64099
Thanks everyone who answered my question.
All the information is really useful.
When I get some more info I’ll let you know.
July 24, 2006 at 6:24 pm #64107
i fully agree with goddstitch! I could not have phrased it better myself.
a few years ago before I too found myself the subject of the spanish developers I loved Spain and everything about it but when you find yourself through no fault of your own in a situation that was only caused by developers greed then you quickly find yourself disliking everything about it.
July 24, 2006 at 8:06 pm #64109
I have to say it is catastrophic when things go wrong because in real Spain the Spanish people are so nice and, in my opinion, far more tolerant of the foreigner than most Brits.
They really do not deserve the bad reputation because of these rogue developers. Many of whom are not even Spanish .
We have been treated with more respect and have encountered more kindness and friendliness than in UK. And I had a great time in UK as well Didn’t think it could be bettered.
Please don’t give up on Spain.
In the long run it is more economical to buy outside of developments where rules and regulations are run by demi gods whose main concern seems to be to tell other what to do and when to do it.
July 24, 2006 at 9:08 pm #64110
Agree with most of what you say but…most of the rogue developers ARE spanish, seen any foreign names around the 40 or so just arrested ❓
July 25, 2006 at 7:20 am #64112
I think it all comes back to the crap spanish system again, in any country rogues will prosper if they know they can get away with it, and in Spain, greed corruption, and backhanders have been surviving in many cases without hindrance. Hopefully the recent arrests will start the ball rolling with regard to justice, because if it dosen’t, i think the spanish lawyers job wont get any easier and the chance of any real justice for most of us will remain slim.
July 25, 2006 at 7:35 am #64113
To quote Katy in an earlier post”the arms of corruption have long tenticles”. The buck doesn’t stop at the Town Hall & developers. It reaches to the top of the legal system IMO. Where do you go to report misdemeanours/ maltreatment from the highest authorities??
July 25, 2006 at 8:18 am #64115
i’m sure you’re right, i think that sums up the reasons for most peoples troubles. I just hope now that it’s all blown out in to the open, change will happen fast?
i agree about the ‘real’ spanish people, on the whole, the one’s i have come in to contact with, have been genuine, good natured and generous family loving people, with a real zest for life and a good sense of humour.
July 26, 2006 at 4:09 pm #64157
I still think Spain is a great place, and one can get into a problems in any country. My only problem here has been the house buying one, I have made a few friends with spanish neighbours and they are courteous, friendly and also just as horrified and affected by our development’s problems as me. One spanish resident in my street mentioned that ‘I was not at all to blame because I am a foreigner’ implying that he should have known better, being local and knowing more about the local laws.
Having said that, yes developers will continue to get away with their cons and rogue practices and throw a bad name over their own country because the current property legal system appears to have a few cracks which works in alot of peoples favour – so why not take advantage of it.
The system itself, at whatever level, needs to crack down on these people the very moment they aim to develop or build something. More scrupulous inspections are needed during building and all their paperwork microscopically scanned before they even dare to pimp off a development to prospective buyers and estate agents.
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