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Yet another thing for hard pressed property owners to worry about , we moved back to the UK 18 months, ago as frankly I could see the storm clouds gathering in Spain and felt that we would better able to weather the downturn back in England , sure enough the storms of storms is hitting Spain and shows every sign of getting much worse over the next 2-3 years . We duly packed up, left our rental property in Tivissa and purchased a property in the West country . After reading the many informative posts on this forum we thought that we had covered all the stops and would maybe in 3 or 4 years time be able to sell our Finca and recoup some of our loses’s . However one important factor was overlooked we left some money in our Spainish bank account . Subsequently the Spainish National insurance ministry emptied our account of £1600 in one fell swoop, Now we had as previously mentioned left our affairs in the hands of our very capable Gestor in a nearby Town , who suitable horrified is attempting to reclaim our money, this type of
theft being not that uncommon by the ministry concerned.Accordingly our Gestor has pointed out to the Ministry that this action is illegal on many fronts including the EU convention covering the Banking codes and the illegal taping of clients funds . By way of fact I can confirm 100% that all our taxes and affairs were fully paid up and cleared when we left Spain and that our Gestor was and always has been our declared agent when dealing with all the Tax authorities in Spain who were quite happy to accept this formal arrangement as process all the time we lived in Spain . The urgent moral of this story is if you are maintaining any dormant funds in Spain for any reason reduce your holdings in Spain to the barest minimum in order to cover your liabilities but no more. What has happened to us and many others should serve as a warning keep your holdings in Spain to the absolute minimum possible , withdraw any surplus
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Your very capable gestor needs to “darte de baja” with the SS office – very simple process which they didn’t do obviously !!… act quickly before they continue the search for other assets in Spain and embargo your finca for more monthly SS contributions
if not you’ll come back in four years time and use the sales proceeds to remove the accumulating embargo. -
Your very capable gestor needs to “darte de baja” with the SS office – very simple process which they didn’t do obviously !!… act quickly before they continue the search for other assets in Spain and embargo your finca for more monthly SS contributions
if not you’ll come back in four years time and use the sales proceeds to remove the accumulating embargo. -
Ubeda Thanks for your response I understand that my Gestor has already requested this process , and we hope to hear from him soon , however I refer to the main thrust of my posting which is not to leave any substantial funds in your Spanish account if it is not your main account .
We all know that things can get missed or forgotten , and that if the SS deciedes to raid your account then if you have no money to speak of then the SS will do what they should always do in these circumstances and check their
records rather than just lie in wait and raid your account . It is much harder to place a charge on a property as they would have to demonstrate that they have made a determined effort to contact the account holder in accordance with all known protocols , but perhaps you are right this is Spain after , beware you ave been warned -
Ubeda Thanks for your response I understand that my Gestor has already requested this process , and we hope to hear from him soon , however I refer to the main thrust of my posting which is not to leave any substantial funds in your Spanish account if it is not your main account .
We all know that things can get missed or forgotten , and that if the SS deciedes to raid your account then if you have no money to speak of then the SS will do what they should always do in these circumstances and check their
records rather than just lie in wait and raid your account . It is much harder to place a charge on a property as they would have to demonstrate that they have made a determined effort to contact the account holder in accordance with all known protocols , but perhaps you are right this is Spain after , beware you ave been warned -
Your very capable gestor needs to “darte de baja” with the SS office – very simple process which they didn’t do obviously !!… act quickly before they continue the search for other assets in Spain and embargo your finca for more monthly SS contributions
if not you’ll come back in four years time and use the sales proceeds to remove the accumulating embargoThat is the point. Get the document in which your gestor resigned you of the SS. Check the date and you’ll realize who is the responsible, gestor or government
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Your very capable gestor needs to “darte de baja” with the SS office – very simple process which they didn’t do obviously !!… act quickly before they continue the search for other assets in Spain and embargo your finca for more monthly SS contributions
if not you’ll come back in four years time and use the sales proceeds to remove the accumulating embargoThat is the point. Get the document in which your gestor resigned you of the SS. Check the date and you’ll realize who is the responsible, gestor or government
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Spanish lawyer , Thank you for confirming the point made by ubed , I wish to confirm that this method of recovery is not used by any other agency in Europe for this type of situation, and as my extremely angry Gestor has pointed out they have simply stolen the money from my account without referring to their own records which state completely clearly that my Gestor is the point of contact. One simply letter or e mail to him and this matter would have been dealt with, he has never received one communication from them in this respect , prior to now trying to recover the funds
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Spanish lawyer , Thank you for confirming the point made by ubed , I wish to confirm that this method of recovery is not used by any other agency in Europe for this type of situation, and as my extremely angry Gestor has pointed out they have simply stolen the money from my account without referring to their own records which state completely clearly that my Gestor is the point of contact. One simply letter or e mail to him and this matter would have been dealt with, he has never received one communication from them in this respect , prior to now trying to recover the funds
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There was a very similar thread recently
http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3291
Many people have found they have embargoes on their bank accounts due to unpaid bills of which they were unaware. You can check if you are on the “wanted” list by checking the BOP online. There was much discussion on this also on another forum very recently. It’s not stealing, it’s not fraud, it’s Spain. -
There was a very similar thread recently
http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3291
Many people have found they have embargoes on their bank accounts due to unpaid bills of which they were unaware. You can check if you are on the “wanted” list by checking the BOP online. There was much discussion on this also on another forum very recently. It’s not stealing, it’s not fraud, it’s Spain. -
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My experience is that Social security and Hacienda never (ok, never say never) get it wrong and it is normally a poorly informed foreigner or an inept “gestor” –
the system works very well and is the envy of most of Europe; ask the big accounting firms !! Stop blaming Spain, get to grips with the system or employ a hot asesor fiscal!! you’ll save all the fees every year with good advise!!
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My experience is that Social security and Hacienda never (ok, never say never) get it wrong and it is normally a poorly informed foreigner or an inept “gestor” –
the system works very well and is the envy of most of Europe; ask the big accounting firms !! Stop blaming Spain, get to grips with the system or employ a hot asesor fiscal!! you’ll save all the fees every year with good advise!!
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Spanish lawyer and Hillbilly, Many thanks for your informed and most helpful posts , UBEDA I mentioned to my Gestor your comments regarding the SS ministry and he does not share your high regard for them , whilst he agreed that taking money from peoples accounts is not common practice , it is happening more frequently , his view which is shared by his profession is that in many cases and mine amongst them the SS do not follow their own proceedures fully, in my case for example the SS should have contacted the bank and his office as a last resort this proceedure they singuarily failed to do .The fact remains that the SS were quiet happy to llaise with his office whilst collecting the monthly payments but did not do so after I returned to the UK, my bank also have no record of the SS making any attempt to contact me regarding this matter , if they had done so then the manager would have contacted me as he has done on numerous occasions in the past .
I should also mention that I am doing a dis service calling my adviser a Gestor he is in fact a fully qualified accountant and within his company are Lawyers and tax advisers who also do not share your view that the SS is as good as you state and all dept’s within his organisation report an increase in complaint’s when dealing with the SS, They may be held in high regard by other countries tax depts but not to the same extent by the professions that have to deal with them on a day to day basis
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Spanish lawyer and Hillbilly, Many thanks for your informed and most helpful posts , UBEDA I mentioned to my Gestor your comments regarding the SS ministry and he does not share your high regard for them , whilst he agreed that taking money from peoples accounts is not common practice , it is happening more frequently , his view which is shared by his profession is that in many cases and mine amongst them the SS do not follow their own proceedures fully, in my case for example the SS should have contacted the bank and his office as a last resort this proceedure they singuarily failed to do .The fact remains that the SS were quiet happy to llaise with his office whilst collecting the monthly payments but did not do so after I returned to the UK, my bank also have no record of the SS making any attempt to contact me regarding this matter , if they had done so then the manager would have contacted me as he has done on numerous occasions in the past .
I should also mention that I am doing a dis service calling my adviser a Gestor he is in fact a fully qualified accountant and within his company are Lawyers and tax advisers who also do not share your view that the SS is as good as you state and all dept’s within his organisation report an increase in complaint’s when dealing with the SS, They may be held in high regard by other countries tax depts but not to the same extent by the professions that have to deal with them on a day to day basis
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Katy, Not according to him and he has provided me with copy e mails etc showing extensive communication with the relevant depts, the point I am making is not to leave any surplus amounts in Spanish accounts , even if such as in my case the money was left in the account to cover any unexpected bills and so on , the point my accountant is making and this is a valid one , is that the SS are more likely to contact the agent or individual concerned if there is no money in the account , rather than to lie in wait and remove the funds without checking first .
It is entirely normal to expect all Government agencies to behave and act in a fair and honest manor , in not doing so you descend into the realms of a corrupt state , records are kept by agencies for this very reason , example there was a small issue with the SS a couple of years ago this matter was dealt with promptly by my accountant and all was in order , if you have a history of dealing with a dept then it is obvious to all that they have your records , fact they have been happy to deal with my accountant for all these years , only when it comes to asking or confirming one simple point ie have I left the country or not then all of a sudden they find that they cannot send one simple note or letter or e mail .
I have seen the correspondence sent by my accountant and he repeats on several communications that I am returning to the UK , we have this fact ackowleged by the SS , but not it seems by the recovery unit within the SS, my warning is a simple one keep the funds required in Spain to a minimum and make certain that your bank and advisers notify you of any communication with any Government depts .
Coincidentally I contacted my DWPP office here and enquired by which measures they would expect to access some ones account , the protocol for this was so long winded that I nearly feel asleep , the outcome of this enquiry confirmed that before any funds could be obtained then the dept must have exhausted all known points of contact , the first of all contact points was with the payee’s appointed agent, this patently did not happen in my case
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Katy, Not according to him and he has provided me with copy e mails etc showing extensive communication with the relevant depts, the point I am making is not to leave any surplus amounts in Spanish accounts , even if such as in my case the money was left in the account to cover any unexpected bills and so on , the point my accountant is making and this is a valid one , is that the SS are more likely to contact the agent or individual concerned if there is no money in the account , rather than to lie in wait and remove the funds without checking first .
It is entirely normal to expect all Government agencies to behave and act in a fair and honest manor , in not doing so you descend into the realms of a corrupt state , records are kept by agencies for this very reason , example there was a small issue with the SS a couple of years ago this matter was dealt with promptly by my accountant and all was in order , if you have a history of dealing with a dept then it is obvious to all that they have your records , fact they have been happy to deal with my accountant for all these years , only when it comes to asking or confirming one simple point ie have I left the country or not then all of a sudden they find that they cannot send one simple note or letter or e mail .
I have seen the correspondence sent by my accountant and he repeats on several communications that I am returning to the UK , we have this fact ackowleged by the SS , but not it seems by the recovery unit within the SS, my warning is a simple one keep the funds required in Spain to a minimum and make certain that your bank and advisers notify you of any communication with any Government depts .
Coincidentally I contacted my DWPP office here and enquired by which measures they would expect to access some ones account , the protocol for this was so long winded that I nearly feel asleep , the outcome of this enquiry confirmed that before any funds could be obtained then the dept must have exhausted all known points of contact , the first of all contact points was with the payee’s appointed agent, this patently did not happen in my case
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GSB: Irrespective of your case, I fully agree with you that you should not keep a € more than required. As I said in my previous postings that once the Banks find out that the account is dormant or near dormant they will happily raid your bank account. What should happen and what actually happens in Spain are totally different things.
You will recall that a Bar owner had his electricity cut off before due date as the electricity staff decided that the due date would be when he will be on holidays & the Bar owner will not pay his bill on time to so had a
preemptive strike and disconnected the electricity supplies before the due date.You all have read the behaviour of telephone companies not disconnecting supplier despite of notice and still raiding the bank account. The same goes for Insurance companies and mobile companies helping themselves to unused credits.
This is Spain for you take it or leave it.
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GSB: Irrespective of your case, I fully agree with you that you should not keep a € more than required. As I said in my previous postings that once the Banks find out that the account is dormant or near dormant they will happily raid your bank account. What should happen and what actually happens in Spain are totally different things.
You will recall that a Bar owner had his electricity cut off before due date as the electricity staff decided that the due date would be when he will be on holidays & the Bar owner will not pay his bill on time to so had a
preemptive strike and disconnected the electricity supplies before the due date.You all have read the behaviour of telephone companies not disconnecting supplier despite of notice and still raiding the bank account. The same goes for Insurance companies and mobile companies helping themselves to unused credits.
This is Spain for you take it or leave it.
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Sakeel , Most regretfully I feel that I have to agree with you , leave money in your current account for what ever reason and it appears that all sorts of agencies can have access to it , hopefully yours and mine posting will help remind people of this issue , and ensure that they reduce their holdings accordingly, interesting point about bank accounts as my Spanish friends maintain only working capital in their bank accounts , transferring any surplus funds to safer accounts
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Sakeel , Most regretfully I feel that I have to agree with you , leave money in your current account for what ever reason and it appears that all sorts of agencies can have access to it , hopefully yours and mine posting will help remind people of this issue , and ensure that they reduce their holdings accordingly, interesting point about bank accounts as my Spanish friends maintain only working capital in their bank accounts , transferring any surplus funds to safer accounts
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Just a thought tho on your advice not to keep surplus funds in your Spanish bank account.
If you DON’T have the money in it to pay whatever it is that “the authorities” have decided you owe them (regardless of whether you dispute it or not) and the bill(s) remain unpaid, you could face the prospect of being arrested on your re-entry to Spain as happened to somebody who posted about the same topic on another forum. -
Just a thought tho on your advice not to keep surplus funds in your Spanish bank account.
If you DON’T have the money in it to pay whatever it is that “the authorities” have decided you owe them (regardless of whether you dispute it or not) and the bill(s) remain unpaid, you could face the prospect of being arrested on your re-entry to Spain as happened to somebody who posted about the same topic on another forum. -
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GSB: I post a lot of negative things that I do with regret as well. I love the country & have many a good friends there. As grown up mature I call spade a spade.
Fortunately, I have not been affected by the corruption in Spain, again due to the timely & wise advise from the very same good Spanish friends.
I am also aware that societies work in a different way. As you said warning people to avoid any pitfalls in any country in books is a service to humanity. Fortunately the large chuck of people on our shared planet are honest, decent & naive & as a result taken for a ride. -
GSB: I post a lot of negative things that I do with regret as well. I love the country & have many a good friends there. As grown up mature I call spade a spade.
Fortunately, I have not been affected by the corruption in Spain, again due to the timely & wise advise from the very same good Spanish friends.
I am also aware that societies work in a different way. As you said warning people to avoid any pitfalls in any country in books is a service to humanity. Fortunately the large chuck of people on our shared planet are honest, decent & naive & as a result taken for a ride. -
Hillbilly, Sakeel, I think this issue is a bigger problem than at first I thought, a distant friend of mine living near Gerona was mortified to discover that £800 had been taken from her account by the local council apparently for unpaid rates, on further investigation it transpired that the council had in fact been sending the rate demand to a flat number in the block that did not even exsist. Exasperated she now dutifully queues at the town hall every quarter to pay her rates along side her neighbours ,rather than run the risk of another raid by the council on her account , again it appears that she was recieving mail from the Town hall but not from the rates dept who had incorrectly entered her address
The point I am making again is that it might be convenient to leave money in an account because when you come over to Spain it saves having to transfer money in the first instance, and by all means leave sufficient funds in order to cover your anticipated liabilities as I have already mentioned, but not to leave any surplus funds in your account as this leaves a too tempting target for agencies that are far too eager to raid accounts without bothering to go through their own required procedures , it is not unreasonable to expect that the agencies charged with this responsibility follow basic time honoured procedures that regulate the taking of money from peoples accounts, if the agencies concerned get this wrong then it is corporate theft , this by all standards is wrong and should be high lighted , and challenged as we are doing here
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Hillbilly, Sakeel, I think this issue is a bigger problem than at first I thought, a distant friend of mine living near Gerona was mortified to discover that £800 had been taken from her account by the local council apparently for unpaid rates, on further investigation it transpired that the council had in fact been sending the rate demand to a flat number in the block that did not even exsist. Exasperated she now dutifully queues at the town hall every quarter to pay her rates along side her neighbours ,rather than run the risk of another raid by the council on her account , again it appears that she was recieving mail from the Town hall but not from the rates dept who had incorrectly entered her address
The point I am making again is that it might be convenient to leave money in an account because when you come over to Spain it saves having to transfer money in the first instance, and by all means leave sufficient funds in order to cover your anticipated liabilities as I have already mentioned, but not to leave any surplus funds in your account as this leaves a too tempting target for agencies that are far too eager to raid accounts without bothering to go through their own required procedures , it is not unreasonable to expect that the agencies charged with this responsibility follow basic time honoured procedures that regulate the taking of money from peoples accounts, if the agencies concerned get this wrong then it is corporate theft , this by all standards is wrong and should be high lighted , and challenged as we are doing here
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Sakeel , Whilst not directly related to this thread , I like you feel an enormous sense of regret as to what has happened in Spain , the corruption the illegal building , coupled with obscene levels of over development , I do not now know any one who is not aware of a Spanish property horror story, a truly sad situation , however Spain is a vast country and I feel that some form of salvation may lie inland , the coast line having been well and truly trashed .Inland Spain is a largely underdeveloped resource with huge swathes of country side that offer exceptional opportunities for all manor of out door pursuits , this sector of the leisure and holiday market is still in its infancy and faces competition from other emerging country’s in Europe and beyond, however Spain is uniquely placed to make the most of this resource , maybe there are some smart people left who could tap into this lucrative market hopefully without the excess’s that have led to the crisis that Spain is in now.
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Sakeel , Whilst not directly related to this thread , I like you feel an enormous sense of regret as to what has happened in Spain , the corruption the illegal building , coupled with obscene levels of over development , I do not now know any one who is not aware of a Spanish property horror story, a truly sad situation , however Spain is a vast country and I feel that some form of salvation may lie inland , the coast line having been well and truly trashed .Inland Spain is a largely underdeveloped resource with huge swathes of country side that offer exceptional opportunities for all manor of out door pursuits , this sector of the leisure and holiday market is still in its infancy and faces competition from other emerging country’s in Europe and beyond, however Spain is uniquely placed to make the most of this resource , maybe there are some smart people left who could tap into this lucrative market hopefully without the excess’s that have led to the crisis that Spain is in now.
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Have a read of
http://www.andalucia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15557
http://www.andalucia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14837
and for info re the BOP
http://www.andalucia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15932 -
Have a read of
http://www.andalucia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15557
http://www.andalucia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14837
and for info re the BOP
http://www.andalucia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15932 -
Katy, Numerically of course there are far more illeagal properties on the coast because that is where the focus of development was centered , most of the inland property problems relate to single issue events such as the Priors,
clearly this is a problem throughout the whole of, Spain but a far more servre one on the coast , my post whilst off topic related more towards the tourisom opportunities that may exsist further inland , now that the coastal areas have become overdeveloped and degraded as a result , by inland I think that this is generally regarded as being in excess of a 15 to 20 mins drive from the coastal strip , however I have just learned of an area near Barcelona that has as many as 1500 individual properties under investigation for illegal building , certainly the pall of corruption is wide spread indeed . -
Katy, Numerically of course there are far more illeagal properties on the coast because that is where the focus of development was centered , most of the inland property problems relate to single issue events such as the Priors,
clearly this is a problem throughout the whole of, Spain but a far more servre one on the coast , my post whilst off topic related more towards the tourisom opportunities that may exsist further inland , now that the coastal areas have become overdeveloped and degraded as a result , by inland I think that this is generally regarded as being in excess of a 15 to 20 mins drive from the coastal strip , however I have just learned of an area near Barcelona that has as many as 1500 individual properties under investigation for illegal building , certainly the pall of corruption is wide spread indeed .
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