- This topic has 27 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 15 years, 6 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
-
‘A court in San Roque is looking into the case of an alleged swindle involving foreign residents living on different parts of the Mediterranean coast, many of them in Marbella, and an amount of money which could be more than 40 million euros. The investigation is centred around the Icelandic bank Lansbanski…….’
(Note the legal firm representing 28 of those involved)
-
-
-
-
As a rule of thumb, expect to lose about 10% of your investment every year through these CDS crooks..er..Advisors. This is based on people I know. They hang on hoping the loss will “adjust” after listening to their advisors. This was in the boom years too. It makes me very angry when I see these (mainly) old people being robbed out of their savings 😈
The old saying still applies whether you are dealing with Agents, Lawyers, developers here “How to make a small fortune in Spain..bring a large one”
-
Personally I think it is morally wrong for the media to carry this misleading advertising, but of course its revenue for them that they desperately need now the property market has cut back on advertising. The current ad on REM promising 24% is by a company that is not regulated to give financial advice in Spain or any where else . I expect the number of companies targeting the old and vulnerable out of their savings to grow in the future due to the financial downturn, the crooks don’t go away but just move on to the next scam.
-
-
I believe that the best protection from fraudsters is our own common sense and personal responsibility. However that seems to evaporate when the promise of high returns are offered.
I watched a congressional hearing on the Madoff scandal. Some investors could see that Madoff’s claims were unreal but many, many more could not because their eyes were glazed with greed. People who should have known better.
If any investment offers greater reward than say an average high street bank be aware you are taking a proportionate risk. Nobody can buck the market trend for very long.
Off plan properties always came with that same proportional risk.
The fraudster knows which buttons to press in the art of persuasion called selling. They know how to target the vulnerable because they deliberately seek them out.
The best defence against them is the personal acceptance of relative low financial returns on investment. -
I don’t think common sense is nearly enough. As Lenox says so well ‘we also have a responsibility towards our community’.
There’s information on this thread about a company advertising on REM. I’m not in Spain & don’t know who is being referred to, but surely those who do know have a responsibility to at least try & do something about this.
On another note; most of us have seen the British REAs dressed up as flamenco dancers who pounce on new arrivals at Spanish airports with their castanets, even before they’ve collected their luggage or made it into the Arrivals Hall. It seems that EU Laws have also been broken here (will post more on this). It may seem a trivial matter to some, but for many, this is when their nightmares started.
However ‘vulnerable’ people may be, they should still be protected by the Laws that are in place for this very purpose.
-
logan
if you invest in shares for example, you have to except a loss as well as a gain hopefully?. You wouldn’t expect the fund manager to run of with your money though, before being turned in to shares, and then you be called a fool because you can’t recover your loss!! That old chestnut was peddled out all the time a few years ago, mainly by those who could not, (or more likely would not) tell the difference between right and wrong, before the real truth about the amount of lies and deception came out.
As Suzanne said, the laws are their to protect the vulnerable againt cheats. They need bringing in to action, and fast! When those cheats hold a position of legal trust, such as town halls, lawyers etc, there can be no exuse for betrayal. I also feel that should also be the case for agents and developers.
-
-
-
@goodstich44 wrote:
……well no, that is a bit far fetched, but you know what i mean, lies are lies!, they should be held accountable in some way.
Lies are part of modern life. Sales people, bankers, lawyers and politicians rely on them. Lies are a form of modern speech, they are everywhere.
The skill is not being found out. That then becomes fraud or dishonesty.
Most of us can spot the lie and act accordingly. The vulnerable believe them.
Do our societies need to protect such people from themselves?
I personally don’t think so. We can only learn from mistakes and experience, move on, recover, not to go there again. The first loss should always be the cheapest.
That is the best tool against fraud. Not ineffective laws con men will always steer round. -
“Most of us can spot the lie and act accordingly. The vulnerable believe them. Do our societies need to protect such people from themselves? I personally don’t think so.”
Personally I believe that you can judge a society by the way it protects the vulnerable. Thank God the UK has developed equitable laws and consumer rights otherwise it would be a poorer place to live.
Richard
-
Society should protect the old and vulnerable otherwise life will become more of a jungle than it is now. Unfortunately the vulnerable are more often old and retired and have accumulated a nest egg after a lifetime of hard work. Once their capital has been plundered by some low life masquerading as a financial adviser it is too late the money has gone and there will be no way of building any wealth if their only income is a state pension.
Spain does require all financial advisers to be registered but like all laws in Spain these are not enforced allowing any fly-by-night to set up an office and relieve you of your hard earned. -
@LYNX wrote:
Spain does require all financial advisers to be registered but like all laws in Spain these are not enforced allowing any fly-by-night to set up an office and relieve you of your hard earned.
Exactly my point. Laws do not work unless they are enforced. Even then they don’t work in the prevention of fraud. Only the potential victim can do that. No society, civilised or not can protect people from themselves.
-
It’s a complete tragedy for those affected and as many on this forum know this is not the only such scheme that’s offered by the many rogue financial advisers advertising heavily in the free English papers found everywhere.
Most of these schemes earn advisors mega commissions and even if global markets were on the up they still would not recover original investments.
Many I have seen on the face of it are well presented offering all types of original investment guarantees….. But of course it doesn’t add up to the trained financial expert.
The other issue is EU regulations and what any agent or “professional” can or cannot do i.e. registered in one jurisdiction practising in another – you can market but not conclude agreements etc – register companies in off-shore friendly jurisdictions and so on…… all aimed at confusing the public.
Anyone wish to name the investment agencies involved?
-
rt21 said
”Personally I believe that you can judge a society by the way it protects the vulnerable. Thank God the UK has developed equitable laws and consumer rights otherwise it would be a poorer place to live.”
Surely that is the only civalised way to live?. How much more proof do we need than the current property scams in Spain?. logans view that ”lies are only dishonest or fraudulant if you are found out” only confirms to me just how much we need regulation and effective laws that protect good people against bad. I’m sorry if this sounds rude, but if i ever shared logans (dodgy estate agent?) view on lies, i will feel i’ve stooped about as low as i can go.
-
You have entirely missed the point I have been trying to make.
It is the practical aspects of fraud within society I refer to. No amount of legal process will prevent con men operating until their potential victims educate themselves to the dangers. There is adequate legislation in place in the UK and parts of the EU yet commercial fraud is still very much a fact of life.
I have at no time indicated in my posts that I believe it acceptable to lie in business. I simply point out that it’s done all the time in all aspects of modern life. Therefore be aware, be cynical. Treat anyone who tries to sell you anything as a crook until they prove otherwise.
I believe when this recession is over the current generation of investors will emerge more street wise. They then have a duty to pass on to the next generation the realities of modern business practice.
By the way I have never been an estate agent and before becoming a property developer I was a commercial fraud investigator for 25 years. -
-
logan
sorry if i misunderstood your point on lies, but it did come over as somewhat acceptable and even justifiable if not caught?
I understand the point you are making, i just don’t agree with all of it. Yes of course we need to be wary of crooks in all walks of life, and i agree we have to be cynical. I’ve run my own business for 20 years, so i’m very aware of that.
The legalision though certainly is not adequate in Spain. As you said, the laws must be enforced to be of any use. With that in mind, anyone who has had to trust a legal body, (which everyone does at some stage) should in any civalised society be able to rely on that trust not being betrayed. Anything else is just wrong, and the blame should always be pointed at the liar/cheat. If that is done and the victim compensated, then Spain would be as safe as buying in the UK, and i don’t think most of the current mess would exist. Just common sense surely?
Corruption, lack of regulation and plain lies have got Spains property industry where it is today. How else could it have ended?
-
“No society, civilised or not can protect people from themselves.”
It’s an interesting observation that you have made. I thought the whole purpose of legislation was to protect people not from themselves but from the malevolent actions of others. If you live in a society with inadequate protection for consumers, which is what you appear to advocate, then all that happens is that consumers will lose trust in commerce and economic activity will fall. This will affect national output and income, which impacts on everyone.
Richard
-
No matter how much a society legislates against illegal activity and attempts to control financial fraud, victims will always sleep walk into disaster.
That is because financial fraud is a unique crime. The victim believes advantage will be theirs so there is a passive act involved on their part. The fraudster knows differently. Society cannot prevent people from believing in advantage. That is part of the capitalist system. Therefore no amount of restriction will prevent the sleep walking, advantage seeking victim from being ripped off.
The victims in my experience, be they corporate or individual always believes it can never happen to them.
I do not advocate a lack of control or accountability of fraudsters. I simply say that unless people act more responsibly with their money, con men will swam like bees. I also do not believe in tax payers paying for the mess others have created.
Historically what has happened in Spain? A weak judicial and policing system together with a huge market where people have made assumptions that safeguards were in place. The perfect scenario for the con man.
How do you protect the public from themselves? Perhaps governments have a duty to warn of the potential dangers in investing in other EU countries. It would at least be a start. -
” A weak judicial and policing system together with a huge market where people have made assumptions that safeguards were in place”
There are many honest bonafide medium & small (SME)business who have not invested in Spain for reasons above, after doing their due diligence & besides employment laws, social security,banks, work shy staff etc. All this is reflected in the unemployment numbers.
SME, are the back bone of any society, unlike the multi nationals who gets wined & dined by the Politicians, Mayors etc, not to mention kick backs & move to other Countries at a drop of a financial incentive hat.
-
The cds action group have quite a lot of info regarding dodgy FA’s, this one is currently advertising on REM.
http://www.costa-action.co.uk/content.asp?file=Premier_Low_Risk_Fund
-
LYNX wrote:Society should protect the old and vulnerable otherwise life will become more of a jungle than it is now. Unfortunately the vulnerable are more often old and retired and have accumulated a nest egg after a lifetime of hard work. Once their capital has been plundered by some low life masquerading as a financial adviser it is too late the money has gone and there will be no way of building any wealth if their only income is a state pension.
Spain does require all financial advisers to be registered but like all laws in Spain these are not enforced allowing any fly-by-night to set up an office and relieve you of your hard earned.I agree with most of the comment already made, but as I have stated many times on this forum, the local British media has carried adverts from what can only be described as fraudsters . I know newspapers, radio stations survive by advertising but they really should check up on advertisers claims and that they are legally allowed to operate in the country. I have not heard the advert on REM. FM offering a return of 24% as I listen to that station as little as possible due to their poor programming content. I do know that over the years they have they have recommended some very shady operators ,who thankfully are no longer around. The local press carries ,has carried ,adverts from so called financial advisers who should n´t have been allowed to do the shopping in the local Mercadona.
I find now that advertising is so misleading , I do not believe a word of it. I check, check and check again. Whether it is an advert for a credit card, internet, mobile telephones, satellite dishes etc the misleading content is incredible.
I have a mobile phone with a card I put 5 euros credit on the first day of the month, if it has gone by the 20th too bad I do not make any calls or send texts until the first day of the next month.
I do not have any credit cards.
I do not have a satellite dish , the programmes are such rubbish or endless repeats. Promises are made about programmes that are kept for a short while then disappear.
I go to the local internet cafe to check e mails, look things up on You Tube etc read the newspapers .
My car is 8 years old and goes like a bomb.
People in general have been sucked into a dreamworld by the media, so called celebrities and moneyare the new gods.
Marketing , hype ,spin, lies call it what you will, lulled people into a feeling that the boom would continue for ever. The present crisis will hopefully return the world to reality, it will be a painful lesson , but hopefully the world will be a better place after it.
-
-
”Personally I believe that you can judge a society by the way it protects the vulnerable. Thank God the UK has developed equitable laws and consumer rights otherwise it would be a poorer place to live.”
Besides protecting the vulnerable. It underpins the financial system & ensures that residents & non residents have confidence. In doing so it brings investments into the Country and create liquidity.
I will however not comment on Mr Brown raiding our pension and if one is going to retire in the next 10 year or so, this will affect their pension pot. notwithstanding the effect of billions of Pounds that are being thrown onto the current crises.
-
- The forum ‘Spanish Real Estate Chatter’ is closed to new topics and replies.
