- This topic has 58 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 15 years, 3 months ago by
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Redgrave were duped.
Article today in the mail as well but I cant find it online.
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Read this today- they seem serious about taking it all the way to court. Usual issues- developer didnt build all the properties and then sold on the the land. New developer doesnt recognise the claims of original prospective purchasers, some of whom have invested up to a million. Nightmare scenario for anyone but maybe Hurst et al have more money than the rest of us and can take it to the wire. I have read though that the courts are back logged with almost 20 years of claims.
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The Courts should have the power to disallow appeal after appeal in cases where it is a cut and dry situation eg.where the property has not been and never will be built. Illegal builds. Also in an appeal case they should be decided upon within say six weeks. It’s quite ridiculous that corrupt developers/banks can appeal in these types of situations. That is what clogs the system up.
IF there is a 20 year backlog, it just proves how deep and widespread the corruption, negligence and dishonesty, goes in Spain. -
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His comment ‘ I am angry at the lies we were told’ rings a bell with us and many others who were swindled by some of these larger estate agents and developers.
It would be interesting to see which, if any, agent was involved in his/their case.
This is just another example of Spain’s weak Government allowing it’s property scams to continue for years with impunity, and another reason why (in response to Chris’s previous comments) that Spain will never be a safe property hotspot again until it cleans it’s act up permanently and quickly, and reinstates a lot of it’s destroyed coastline.
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quote Angie
This is just another example of Spain’s weak Government allowing it’s property scams to continue for years with impunity……..unquote.Can’t just blame Spain Angie.
The High Court action is in England. So once again Brits are scaming their fellowman.
I am amazed that they, as many were primarily duped this way, that the British Government refuses to do anything other than pass the buck. -
Last time I heard Geoff Hurst was a financial advisor.
Suggest he doesnt give up the day job.
Next we will hear that some politicians are claiming Marbella as their second home.
They are all as bad as one another and each would screw their own kind given half a chance
Its just a case of what they can all get away with. -
I agree Melosine that the UK could or should have got more involved in helping it’s citizens out by putting pressure on Spain.
I doubt that High Court action in the UK will get the results that Geoff Hurst etc want although I wish them luck, could be very expensive though and even if the decision went in their favour, would they actually get their money back?
As for Spain though, I do blame them entirely for their corrupt property industry that if they had proper regulation and a speedy Court process, plus a moral conscience, things would not have got so bad for unwary foreigners.
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I agree angie
However .Politicians/Courts/Government/Banks/developers. MORAL CONSCIENCE ?
Think Gordon and the U.K have enough problems as it is.
Of course they probably wont get their money back.
Developer will play the game and so will the Banks.
Banks could never honour guarantees as they would die overnight.
Reality is something Spain has to avoid until the market returns and thousands of Joe Blogs either die off or run out of money chasing court cases solicitors know will in most cases never yield a result.
Just hopefully high profile names like this and petitions from within forums will keep the pressure on for the European Courts to step in.
So important to keep fighing however reality is being clear in just how hard the fight is. -
@Observer wrote:
…..thousands of Joe Blogs either die off or run out of money chasing court cases solicitors know will in most cases never yield a result.
Until corrupt judges are kicked out of their jobs, Spain can’t even begin to clean up its act.
The corrupt triangle of developer/lawyer/EA is well known but some judges are also in it up to their necks, especially in the court houses of Marbella.There really is no hope when you have a judge refusing to accept the evidence of a Town Planning Officer, brought in as a witness on behalf of a purchaser to confirm their property’s building licence is illegal and that a LFO therefore cannot be assumed via the AS rule – and simply refers to the witness as “irrelevant”, ruling the purchaser must complete regardless.
@Observer wrote:
Banks could never honour guarantees as they would die overnight
There is at least some hope there Observer.
Last week our lawyer had another successful ruling in a case against Banco Popular Hipotecario, forcing the bank to honour the Bank Guarantee.
Needless to say it was an Appeal hearing, heard in the High Court Madrid where it seems at least some justice is being applied.
This bank even appealed against having to honour our BG despite nothing having been built 🙄 just wasting our and the court’s time.Well done Carlos, again, for giving this bank the good kicking it deserves.
With Geoff Hurst’s experienced foot, let’s hope he can give some guilty parties a good kicking too. -
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Claire – in the judge’s summing up, he said the law is very clear when:
the building licence is (still) currently suspended
therefore no LFO (told the bank to forget banging on about the AS rule in this case)
blocks of appartments built instead of the approved townhouses
the list goes on.
All stuff everyone has known for years and believed rightly that they had ‘the law’ on their side.
Yet some Marbella judges in many cases still found for the developer to force completion.This may seem off-topic but it clearly illustrates that justice depends on the judge-of-the-day who can totally ignore the “very clear law”.
I too question whether any ruling Hurst & Co. may achieve in UK will cut any ice in Spain.
For me, their case hangs on looking into the law as to whether anyone buying land has a responsibility/obligation to people who made financial transactions on it before they purchased it.
As far as I know, debts on a property are carried to the new owners though I may be wrong. -
With good solicitors and with high profile names like this it can only be good news.
With some sort of intervention from the European Courts to put a stop to this appeals proceedure and other abuse then there may be a way forward
Until then its a very long hard fight but one that must be won if Spain can ever recover any form of trust within the established world.
Reality is .What is it going to take to stand and be counted. -
Claire, debts on a property are carried forward to new purchasers, but if Geoff Hurst and Co bought from a promotor, then the debt is with the company and not actually on the asset! If they had acted sooner and registered a debt on the land then they would have grounds and would have to have been reimbursed before new owner took it on, like a banks mortgage, but in this case Im guessing the company they bought from has gone into liquidation so nothing to claim upon.
The Royal Marbella Group or Duja Group as they were known, ceased trading a while ago and the parent company based in Seville took over the projects (thats as far as I can remember and that was at least a couple of years ago!) Previously based in Banus.
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Inez, Charlie made that comment!!!
My comment is ….why should the likes of Geoff Hurst, Sir Steve Redgrave make people sit up and think they will make a difference to Spanish law? Yes they may be richer than the rest of us but our money counts too. Where are the “they were just greedy, didn’t do research, left brain on the plane, deserve to get shafted” brigade? Think they would get short shrift from the above named!! 😉 -
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Last time I heard Geoff Hurst was a financial advisor.
all i remember is these two “celebs” were on every motorway road sign, publicity campaign, brochures etc endorsing/ recommending these developments – i think i remember them “promoting” these to friends etc in the UK –
a bit suspicious if you ask me ??
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@UBEDA wrote:
Last time I heard Geoff Hurst was a financial advisor.
all i remember is these two “celebs” were on every motorway road sign, publicity campaign, brochures etc endorsing/ recommending these developments – i think i remember them “promoting” these to friends etc in the UK –
a bit suspicious if you ask me ??
Do you think it suspicious? Did anyone take celebrity endorsements seriously? I imagine that some celebrities, like regular people, thought Spain and property there a great investment but that didn’t give them any inside knowledge or insight.
I remember Zara Phillips was going to be buying at a new development near me on the Costa de la Luz which excited a few people but at the end of the day they knew that she was hardly going to come in the local bar, whip snapping against her johdpurs inviting all and sundry to a palace garden party.
I’m sure it attracted some of the weaker minded.
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mike
we had a well known/respected sports celeb’ on our inspection trip. I do also know that several of the agents staff who we bought through bought apartments. Last time I spoke to one of the girls in the office (now shut down) she was furious after finding our her ‘penthouse’ grew a floor above it!! Nothing was to low, I think the agents would have cheated members of their own family if they thought they could get away with it?
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The best one I read in the Telegraph was that Bill Gates (of Microsoft) was buying a crappy £200,000 apartment in Malta…as you do with all that money 😆 Then there was Botham with Viva. Rumours that Beckham and several others were buying in Dubai (anyone seen that development 🙄 ) Personally the very thought that these people would be my neighbours would be off-putting. Could tolerate Bill Gates though for a round of golf 😉
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Could anyone in particular any solicitors confirm if the following report is merely idle gossip, the possible truth or just a sick game being played by the Banks
In some cases you take the Bank to court, win or lose there is the appeal in most cases.
If you eventually win against the bank giving them no right of appeal they are taking the case to the European Courts in Brussels or at least saying thats what they are going to do instead of paying out.
Do they really have the balls to do this. -
Hopefully a sick game, but nothing is a surprise anymore.Where may I ask, did you hear that info ?
Observer.
As “ralita” observed on another thread, I do not think you are a newcomer to the forum. (what a sad state that some people keep changing their post “identity”) I consider your comment re the Banks appeal, inflammatory. -
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I simply asked the forum a question.
“Could anyone in particular any solicitors confirm if the following report is merely idle gossip, the possible truth or just a sick game being played by the Banks “
No solicitors appear to be involved with the forum
No one can say if its true or notEnd of of story and have to put it down to idle gossip.
Cant see anything wrong in putting it forward as thats hopefully what forums are about. Sorting out facts and burying issues like this from the experience of the members if not true. -
Hi Observer,
your question was:@Observer wrote:
If you eventually win against the bank giving them no right of appeal they are taking the case to the European Courts in Brussels or at least saying thats what they are going to do instead of paying out.
In order to get an answer as to whether this has ever actually happened in Spain you would need to check with every lawyer in the land to see if they know of a case.
If no-one on SPI has replied that they’ve heard of such a case, that in itself will not answer your question.
Try Google …….. and beware of idle gossip!
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Does it matter if Oberserver is scaremongering or not?
If the statement is true, better for the information to made public, so more people are prepared. If its not true, good to know that that avenue of appeal is not open to the banks.
S/he does not have to tell us where the info came from. What is going to be said anyway? a lawyer/agency friend. someone in the process of trying to get their money from the bank? etc…
maybe we should all work on the idea of innocent till proven guilty?
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Thank you
I am sorry for bringing this question to the open forum.
No one has heard of this and solicitors cant answer then as is said my question has been answered.
Think we all have to be aware of idle gossip, what we see in newspaper reports and internal memos in case they are taken in the wrong context.
Have looked back through my postings and noticed a comment from Ralita. Then looked way back ?
Nothing to say as they appear to have said it all and am not even going to try to defend or comment . I only observe.
Nothing more to say on this subject either as its cleary has touched a nerve and hopefully everyone will forgive me .Thank you.
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Of course it is Katy!!!! He’s unable to change his way of posting.
He wrote that post re Bank appealing to European Court because he cannot post on EOS Green Hills Forum. He’ll do ANYTHING to have a knock at success re GH.
I’m clearly not the only one who has this view either. Anyway, Mark will know if we ask him.
Forgive you “Observer” then answer my question please.Fuengi wrote ,
Does it matter if Oberserver is scaremongering or not?
That’s a suprisingly crass comment coming from you. 😯
It DOES matter if people cannot, /will not back up comments such as this when asked to. Why not name the source? Anyone can come to the forums and write rubbish info.
maybe we should all work on the idea of innocent till proven guilty?
😆
If only that could happen in Spain!! -
@katy wrote:
Frank, is that you 💡
I think it’s fun to let’s-try-and-spot Sunbelt/glassman/Just Frank everytime he gets booted off the forum, we know he always comes back at some stage.
As to whether he is now Observer or not, I haven’t a clue – but if it is, his spelling has improved. 😆
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Whats this a game of Charades
I simply asked the forum or any solicitors if they had any knowledge of this information which was apparently an internal memo from one of the Banks.
I am sorry that I don’t have the name and address but clearly it was a subject on an agenda at a meeting somewhere on the Costa del Sol.
If they did have the balls to go for it then surely this would bring the whole sorry mess regarding so called Bank Guarantees to a head.
I think it would be suicide for them to do but reality is that like the Banks in the U.K anyone would be perhaps a little naïve to assume that Spanish Banks are not doing to well at the moment.
It was offered that as no solicitors post anymore that enquiries would be made
Clearly it has drawn a blank.Reality even if it were true solicitors may not be the first to know or some wouldnt admit it if they did.The European Union is possibly the only way that justice will prevail overall in Spain, however its presented and by who is irrelevant as long as its bought to a head.
Hopefully that brings this to a close
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@Claire wrote:
Fuengi wrote ,
Does it matter if Oberserver is scaremongering or not?
That’s a suprisingly crass comment coming from you. 😯
many people here hare happy to quote real estate ‘friends’ when discussing the lack of buyer around, how they have not done a deal in months, sold a million euro property, etc… and no one asks who the friends are.
If he is scaremongering, better to prove him wrong and further alay any additional fears some poeple might have.The difference here is Frank, never managed to wind me up like he did a few other posters here. I don’t care if it is him or not, we can only guess or assume. Unless of course someone knows how to check his IP address to see if its coming from the same computer or computers that he used.
and if it is frank, he is willing to go to alot of trouble to talk/annoy a few of it. He must enjoy talking to you….
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And there was I thinking you were one of the more intelligent, reasonable REAs Fuengi 🙁 I do not think your analogy is a very good one.
Anything Frank may say is of no consequence. He should not be posting here. After all he has been barred by Mark on this forum and Justin on EOS, sooo many times for upsetting the forums and writing rubbish. Difference is, Justin seems to be able to make it permanent . Yes Mark can tell from ISPs who a poster is.
The difference here is Frank, never managed to wind me up like he did a few other posters here.
I don’t expect you got the rude and threatening pm’s that I and AN Other got Fuengi. Bad enough for him to be banned. Yes you are right. He will go to any lengths to disprove a victory gained in the Courts when it concerns Santa Maria Green Hills. He can’t help himself and that is what he is trying to do.
Anyway, I think enough has been said.
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A simple question was put to the forum regarding Banks being able to take cases to the European Courts if the right of appeal is denied.
This interested me(Unlike most of the rubbish posted) as valid question that could have far reaching effects.
The forum with its long standing experts ? could not bother or be interested to find out and for some reason seemed to wish that this issue should be silenced by one member in particular( Clearly has the controlling interest )I contacted a large firm of solicitors today with the same question that was made
Could Banks take some cases to the European Courts if they felt they were wronged and the judgement unfair instead of payingREPLY
DEAR Ms
“THIS COULD VERY WELL HAPPEN”
WITH KIND REGARDS
XXXX
Banks wont be able to cope with mass guarantee payouts.
These are pure and simply facts.
The forum is stuck in a time warp being a little chat shop for so called experts and those with clearly little real interest in Spain itself.
I notice its said that solicitors do not post here anymore.
Surprised any grown up posts anymore as its like a load of 5 year olds kids playing with others money and emotions.
This is my money.my emotions so why cant I see any people like me who love Spain post on a Spanish Property Forum with up to date informationClearly a game for them who are well past the sell by date but reality no game for genuine people involved in Spain.
People with property/investments and live in Spain.People that want to move and be a part of Spain sometime in the future.Having following the forum for a while i will now be slated by those who are frightened
Frightened they will lose their sad little world being on computer 24/7 They feel power .Now thats people that really do need to get a life. -
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Hi Chas
Welcome to the forum
We try where possible to be courteous here, this may be be misconstrued as something else,there are so called new posters joining all the time for personal gain, commercial reasons or just to cause trouble .I for one have inveseted over 400ke in Spain this year, the Spain I love.
New posters cannot expect to ask questions, get advise from people without proven integrity, if its just a row you want you can get that here to.
As far as banks having the right of appeal to the eu over Bg’s, i would have thought this is great news(if true) for all the people that have a valid one outstanding, I doubt weather the eu will find in favor of the Spanish banks, the onus then will fall on the Bank of Spain to satisfy the outsatnding BG.Steve
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@Claire wrote:
And there was I thinking you were one of the more intelligent, reasonable REAs Fuengi 🙁 I do not think your analogy is a very good one.
True the analogy was not the best. I assume it is observers writing style that makes few think its him?
@Claire wrote:
I don’t expect you got the rude and threatening pm’s that I and AN Other got Fuengi. Bad enough for him to be banned. Yes you are right. He will go to any lengths to disprove a victory gained in the Courts when it concerns Santa Maria Green Hills. He can’t help himself and that is what he is trying to do.
no never had any threatening emails, minus one or 2 talking about threatening legla action over comments about X & Y. typical crap.
I was also never invloved in all the issues/conversations over Santa Maria.
I cannot imaging someone having the urge/need to continuously create new accounts to keep on posting here as you all think Frank is doing. Seems slightly masochistic to me.
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@Chas wrote:
I contacted a large firm of solicitors today with the same question that was made
Could Banks take some cases to the European Courts if they felt they were wronged and the judgement unfair instead of payingREPLY
DEAR Ms
“THIS COULD VERY WELL HAPPEN”
WITH KIND REGARDS
XXXX
I call bullshit.
First which legal firm? I am sure Mark won’t might giving them a bit of publicity if it helps people. So tell us!Second, for a ‘large firm’ you would think they would have a better idea of how the ECJ (European court of Justice) works. The ECJ is the highest court of the European Union in matters of Community law, but not national law. It is not possible to appeal the decisions of national courts to the ECJ, but rather national courts refer questions of EU law to the ECJ.
Also under Article 225 of the Consolidated Treaty Establishing the European Community, appeals on judgements given by the Court of First Instance may be heard by the Court of Justice only if the appeal is on a point of law.
@Chas wrote:
This is my money.my emotions so why cant I see any people like me who love Spain post on a Spanish Property Forum with up to date information
What property? What information. So far you have told us neither.
@Chas wrote:
Having following the forum for a while i will now be slated by those who are frightened
Frightened they will lose their sad little world being on computer 24/7 They feel power .Now thats people that really do need to get a life.Well welcome to the forum, but you are right you will be slated. Not suprising considering you first ever post is an attack on several posters here and you have chosen to supply NO information of any worth.
Contribute properly and you might be treated with some respect
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Quote:wrote:
@Chas wrote:
I contacted a large firm of solicitors today with the same question that was made
Could Banks take some cases to the European Courts if they felt they were wronged and the judgement unfair instead of payingREPLY
DEAR Ms
“THIS COULD VERY WELL HAPPEN”
WITH KIND REGARDS
XXXXQuestion
How many large firms of Lawyers respond with xxxxx at the end of a “serious” enquiry?
Answer. Just Franks lawyer who quote” is like a sister to me and the wife” !!!!!!!!!!! I rest my case. 😉 -
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