- This topic has 46 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 15 years, 7 months ago by
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I have an illegal home we have no electric or water we bought over 4years ago and didnt realise it was illegal until it was too late,I was visited by semprona 18months ago and they told me it was illegal,I visited an engineer who has registered my house under the 4 year rule and he says it will guarantee my escruturia,so i have made arrangements to go to the notary and pay taxes etc I feel i am trying to do things right to enable me to get Electricity,people have told me that i could be getting myself in trouble as by getting the escruturia i am saying i was the promoter,can anyone advise me please on which way to go, should i go to the notary and pay the taxes or just sit back and wait?
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Although you need an escritura it does not make a property legal and it certainly won’t entitle you to have your water and electricity connected for this you need the habitation licence .The latter comes from the townhall when all your paperwork has been stamped.
Not actually sure if you would then be classed as the promotor but it would be your names on a legal document.
Was under the impression the 4 year rule was no longer an option especially in areas where the J of A are still at loggerheads with the local ayuntamientos over the mass of illegal builds. -
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IBI is the Rates on your property which is payable once the townhall have processed all the paperwork and issued the habitation licence.
Basura (rubbish collection) is totally different and paid separately regardless of legality.Reads to me your builder never got the permission to build but went ahead regardless on the AS ruling.
AS (Administrative Silence) rule was if council didn’t respond within 3 months of application then they were deemed to have agreed by default.If you live in a region where the J of A are actively investigating the overbuild problems then personally I would wait until it is sorted before getting the escritura because it will do nothing at all to legalise your build.
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We are in a similar situation.
We paid for a building licence but it was never issued; unfortunately we weren’t aware of this until quite a while after we had moved in.
We have an Antiquity Certificate and are registered in the Land Registry. However, we still can’t call ourselves “legal” as we don’t have a habitation licence, and the town hall will not issue any. However, we are registered in the Catastral as a house and have paid IBI since 2004.
Nothing is straightforward.
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FUTURE LEGALISATION IN ALMANZORA VALLEY
If you are one of the owners affected by legal issues in Almanzora Valley, please take this into account:
1.- DO NOT trust in the seller, nor the seller’s lawyer. Of course, if you had an “independant” lawyer and you have such a problem, choose another lawyer.
2.- Try to check out NOW what’s the exact situation of your property ( Land Registry, Catastro, Town Council, Junta de Andalucia and private contracts). It is advisable to find someone that can do this properly on your behalf.
3.- You have a legal problem, and you need a legal solution. The process can be smoother with politicians help, but it may be long and complex.
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@Legally wrote:
FUTURE LEGALISATION IN ALMANZORA VALLEY
3.- You have a legal problem, and you need a legal solution. The process can be smoother with politicians help, but it may be long and complex.
Excuse me for poking my nose in here, but may I suggest you read the final experience cited on the ‘Your Stories’ page here:
http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk/6.html
If some (dare I say ‘many’?) lawyers had been doing their jobs with the ethics & professional code they commit to abide to, most of us would not be in the disgraceful mess we are today, and the property abuses & scandals would not have escalated to where they are now.
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Unfortunately you are right, may be some (or many?) of the professional have been not so carefull as they should?, or may be some were more focused in seller’s interest?
Anyway, the key now is to assure the property and try to ask for liabilities if is the case. Obviously the problem is to prove at Court or at the Law Society that the professional behaviour of the lawyer has caused you a damage, it’s a tricky issue!
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“Unfortunately you are right, may be some (or many?) of the professional have been not so carefull as they should?,”
NOT, HOLDING YOU RESPONSIBLE DIRECTLY. WHAT DID THE LAWYERS WHO AS YOU SAY “SOME/MANY” WERE CARRYING ON.
WHAT DID THEY DO ABOUT IT ?. WHY DID THEY NOT TAKE THE MATTER WITH THE COLEGIO ON BEHALF OF THE PROFESSION & ITS INTEGRITY. BY NOT SPEAKING OUT TO DEFEND YOUR PROFESSION & ITS REPUTATION, THE LAWYERS HAVE SHOT THEMSELVES IN THE FOOT & HAVE LOST THERE POTENTIAL FOR FUTURE EARNINGS.
or may be some were more focused in seller’s interest?
DOES A LAWYER NOT UNDERSTAND CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
Anyway, the key now is to assure the property and try to ask for liabilities if is the case.
YES, TO SOME EXTENT. WE ARE HOWEVER MOVING TO THE SPANISH MENTALITY OF ” PASA NADA”. THIS WAY THINGS WILL NOT IMPROVE.
the problem is to prove at Court or at the Law Society that the professional behaviour of the lawyer has caused you a damage, it’s a tricky issue!
WHY SHOULD IT BE ???. DONT THE COLEGIO SEE THAT ITS THE SAME ABAGADOS WHO NAMES KEEP ON PROPING UP TIME AFTER TIME.
SORRY, IF YOU THINK THAT YOU CAN APPEAR ON THE FORUM, TO INDIRECTLY DRUM UP BUSINESS, WE ARE A VERY HARDY LOT.
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Shakeel,
I was just showing my sincere opinion, I’m very sorry if I have disturbed someone. Of course my personal opinion is much more clear (like yours) about the problem and the causes.
Definitively I’m not defending anyone, and I don’t believe that things should remain the same. But I tried to be realistic about the options that owners have.
An example, as far as I know, may be difficult to prove that the seller (and the lawyer) told the customer that he was buying a legal house when in the “Escritura” just appears a piece of land. The seller will always maintain that the conveyance was referred to the land, not to the house. Anyway, if the seller was consciously doing that, there is a “estafa”, and that’s a crime, but must be legally proved. -
Did you actually go to the notary when you bought the property?
If so did you get a title deed for the land only, with no metion of a dwelling on the land?
If you have the chance to obtain the title deed to the property after the 4 year rule, it would make sense to do so as it is a step towards obtaining your habitation certificate and getting electricity in the future.
Also if you get a title deed showing the building on it, then should the property be demolished, you could at least increase the value of a compensation claim.
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Suzanne,
I was just pointing out the possibility of checking by yourself the situation of your property, because I believe that even now there are owners without enough information. There is a number of different situations, and the Town Councils are beginning the “Inspection Plan”, that is, apparently the first step for the “regularización”.
In my opinion, it is extremely important for the owners to be sure (and ask for it, when possible) of the inclusion of their properties in the lists. But, of course, it is just my personal opinion. -
“I was just showing my sincere opinion, I’m very sorry if I have disturbed someone. Of course my personal opinion is much more clear (like yours) about the problem and the causes.”
I cant speak for others. You have not disturbed me. The question still remains, when you knew all that was going on on such a large scale. What did you do ??? Please answer.
“Definitively I’m not defending anyone,”
You, have no leg to stand to defend, your profession.
” I don’t believe that things should remain the same.”
So, how should they change ? & what have you done about it. Please answer.
“I tried to be realistic about the options that owners have. “
I do agree with you on this one.
“An example, as far as I know, may be difficult to prove that the seller (and the lawyer) told the customer that he was buying a legal house when in the “Escritura” just appears a piece of land. The seller will always maintain that the conveyance was referred to the land, not to the house.”
Each case is different & it is for this reason that a lawyer is employed to protect the clients interest. Apart from the legislation the lawyers are aware of the workings & the practicalities through their daily experience or exchanges views with other lawyers. So the lawyer has to protect its client no more or less. If the lawyer cannot than he should simply refuse to act for the client & return his paper.
If I engage a lawyer & he finds out the developer that I am dealing with is suspect. He should say to me that I cannot act for you in this transaction. That will send a massive signal to me & the alarm bell will start flashing big time.
” if the seller was consciously doing that, there is a “estafa”, and that’s a crime, but must be legally proved “
Of Course everything has to be legally proved. This is stating the obvious. To prove anything in Spain & get a just recourse is the main issue. I am sorry if you still cannot see it. You may remember son of a famous Marbella Mayor, company was involved in a construction project in North of Madrid where. some 70 people died due to collapse of the building.
The person concerned was forgiven by Franco. The blood of 70 innocent people. The said person company is still trading, has estate agencies in CDS & is involved in a project in Tangier’s, Morocco.
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“I was just showing my sincere opinion, I’m very sorry if I have disturbed someone. Of course my personal opinion is much more clear (like yours) about the problem and the causes.”
I cant speak for others. You have not disturbed me. The question still remains, when you knew all that was going on on such a large scale. What did you do ??? Please answer.
“Definitively I’m not defending anyone,”
You, have no leg to stand to defend, your profession.
” I don’t believe that things should remain the same.”
So, how should they change ? & what have you done about it. Please answer.
“I tried to be realistic about the options that owners have. “
I do agree with you on this one.
“An example, as far as I know, may be difficult to prove that the seller (and the lawyer) told the customer that he was buying a legal house when in the “Escritura” just appears a piece of land. The seller will always maintain that the conveyance was referred to the land, not to the house.”
Each case is different & it is for this reason that a lawyer is employed to protect the clients interest. Apart from the legislation the lawyers are aware of the workings & the practicalities through their daily experience or exchanges views with other lawyers. So the lawyer has to protect its client no more or less. If the lawyer cannot than he should simply refuse to act for the client & return his paper.
If I engage a lawyer & he finds out the developer that I am dealing with is suspect. He should say to me that I cannot act for you in this transaction. That will send a massive signal to me & the alarm bell will start flashing big time.
” if the seller was consciously doing that, there is a “estafa”, and that’s a crime, but must be legally proved “
Of Course everything has to be legally proved. This is stating the obvious. To prove anything in Spain & get a just recourse is the main issue. I am sorry if you still cannot see it. You may remember son of a famous Marbella Mayor, company was involved in a construction project in North of Madrid where. some 70 people died due to collapse of the building.
The person concerned was forgiven by Franco. The blood of 70 innocent people. The said person company is still trading, has estate agencies in CDS & is involved in a project in Tangier’s, Morocco.
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It’s a pity there isn’t a law that requires a clients lawyer to put in writing on his official heading paper that the property his client is purchasing is fully legal and comprises of everything described in the agents and developers literature, including bank guarantees, habitation certificate etc.
But even though this is not a requirement by law, there is nothing to stop the buyer from requesting such a letter before going ahead with the purchase. If the lawyer is not prepared to put it in writing, then that should be enough warning to back out of any purchase.
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It’s a pity there isn’t a law that requires a clients lawyer to put in writing on his official heading paper that the property his client is purchasing is fully legal and comprises of everything described in the agents and developers literature, including bank guarantees, habitation certificate etc.
But even though this is not a requirement by law, there is nothing to stop the buyer from requesting such a letter before going ahead with the purchase. If the lawyer is not prepared to put it in writing, then that should be enough warning to back out of any purchase.
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Its like Turkeys, voting for Christmas. Even if the lawyer does & it turns out not be the case.
Do you think the colegio will deal with it or the judge will rule against a lawyer. The system is rotten to the core & full of Nepotism that only be compared to Countries like Nigeria.
It for the reasons above that I am not deeply entrenched in a not engaging a lawyer camp. You pay a substantial fee to them only to be lured into false sense of security
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Its like Turkeys, voting for Christmas. Even if the lawyer does & it turns out not be the case.
Do you think the colegio will deal with it or the judge will rule against a lawyer. The system is rotten to the core & full of Nepotism that only be compared to Countries like Nigeria.
It for the reasons above that I am not deeply entrenched in a not engaging a lawyer camp. You pay a substantial fee to them only to be lured into false sense of security
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@shakeel wrote:
Its like Turkeys, voting for Christmas. Even if the lawyer does & it turns out not be the case.
Do you think the colegio will deal with it or the judge will rule against a lawyer. The system is rotten to the core & full of Nepotism that only be compared to Countries like Nigeria.
It for the reasons above that I am not deeply entrenched in a not engaging a lawyer camp. You pay a substantial fee to them only to be lured into false sense of security
You may be right shakeel, but why not obtain the letter anyway, it can at very least make you feel you have done everything possible from your side, and at most, be used in a European Court to extract compensation should the lawyer have been found to officially claim untruths.
As was said above, in law you have to prove your case, and a letter from a lawyer is proof enough.
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@shakeel wrote:
Its like Turkeys, voting for Christmas. Even if the lawyer does & it turns out not be the case.
Do you think the colegio will deal with it or the judge will rule against a lawyer. The system is rotten to the core & full of Nepotism that only be compared to Countries like Nigeria.
It for the reasons above that I am not deeply entrenched in a not engaging a lawyer camp. You pay a substantial fee to them only to be lured into false sense of security
You may be right shakeel, but why not obtain the letter anyway, it can at very least make you feel you have done everything possible from your side, and at most, be used in a European Court to extract compensation should the lawyer have been found to officially claim untruths.
As was said above, in law you have to prove your case, and a letter from a lawyer is proof enough.
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I’m a Lawyer in Murcia, and I haven’t had any case in Almeria, by now. I suppose this can explain why I’m sure about my opinions.
I have a huge respect to my profession and I deeply regret the professional behavior of other colleagues, but I’m convinced that, at the end of the day, not all the lawyers are the same.
I totally agree with you about the obligation of the lawyer protecting his customer’s interest, it is obvious that in Spain as in UK is the reason of being of the profession.
In fact, in Spain there is no obligation about using the services of a lawyer in a conveyance; people use those legal services when they think they will be more protected doing so.
About having a written report from the legal firm about the property with all relevant details, I think it is a right of the customers that they would always ask for, and there is no legal obstacle to get it now.
Unfortunately, in recent times some buyers not even have received an invoice when paying the cost of the lawyer, it is so sad. -
I’m a Lawyer in Murcia, and I haven’t had any case in Almeria, by now. I suppose this can explain why I’m sure about my opinions.
I have a huge respect to my profession and I deeply regret the professional behavior of other colleagues, but I’m convinced that, at the end of the day, not all the lawyers are the same.
I totally agree with you about the obligation of the lawyer protecting his customer’s interest, it is obvious that in Spain as in UK is the reason of being of the profession.
In fact, in Spain there is no obligation about using the services of a lawyer in a conveyance; people use those legal services when they think they will be more protected doing so.
About having a written report from the legal firm about the property with all relevant details, I think it is a right of the customers that they would always ask for, and there is no legal obstacle to get it now.
Unfortunately, in recent times some buyers not even have received an invoice when paying the cost of the lawyer, it is so sad. -
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Legally
neither our UK agent (OVP) or the UK and Spanish lawyers they put us on to, secured a bank guarantee. We didn’t trust the agents (we got that one right!) but like most people in the UK we thought we could trust our lawyers to protect our interest/deposit. We have since found out, not only was a BG never obtained but also our money less commision was handed over to the developer even before a building license was granted. So we are victims of a 3 way (agent/lawyer/developer) stitch up. The building license never was granted and the development never even started. We of course never got our deposit back, and are now, with the help of what i believe is a good Spanish lawyer, trying to sue the developer as that’s where our money ended up. 7 years this June since putting down deposit!
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Legally
neither our UK agent (OVP) or the UK and Spanish lawyers they put us on to, secured a bank guarantee. We didn’t trust the agents (we got that one right!) but like most people in the UK we thought we could trust our lawyers to protect our interest/deposit. We have since found out, not only was a BG never obtained but also our money less commision was handed over to the developer even before a building license was granted. So we are victims of a 3 way (agent/lawyer/developer) stitch up. The building license never was granted and the development never even started. We of course never got our deposit back, and are now, with the help of what i believe is a good Spanish lawyer, trying to sue the developer as that’s where our money ended up. 7 years this June since putting down deposit!
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@Legally wrote:
I’m a Lawyer in Murcia, and I haven’t had any case in Almeria, by now. I suppose this can explain why I’m sure about my opinions.
I’m afraid for me this does not “explain” or indicate anything.
My ex-lawyer/firm (a large international one and a huge presence on the CDS) committed a serious ‘lack of customer care’ with us.
Failing to obtain a Bank Guarantee until we pushed them hard….”oh, we asked them many many times for one” (cue the Spanish shrug of shoulders) was just the beginning.
They produced one two years after our initial contract and after they knew (but we didn’t) the developer could never build – it was just a further ‘bluff’ to make us feel all was well
incidentally the BG was post-dated trying the con that we couldn’t claim on it for another two years (luckily the judge ignored that illegal clause),
failing to inform us about the no-build situation/revoked building licence despite knowing about it for two years, actually lying to us about knowing, despite us finding out later they had found an alternative property for another client a year before because of this very problem
failing to return calls/e-mails once we found out about the situation
giving us the run-around when trying to arrange a meeting with them (we ended up getting on the plane and turning up at their office and refused to move until they saw us)
initially refusing to return our file when we changed lawyer unless we paid them yet more money –
and when they did finally return it (again, we presented ourselves in their office and refused (loudly, infront of their other clients) to leave until they gave it to us, half of the contents were missing.
I could go on.We made an official complaint to the Colegio de Abogados – no response from them, no discipline for the law firm as far as we are aware (they are still members), and they continue to gaily operate without anyone willing to take them on in court.
To quote my new lawyer – “no lawyer in Marbella wants take on a case against another local lawyer”. Therein lies the problem as to why it’s very rare for a law firm to end up in court.
So in my book never having had a case brought against a law firm means nothing.
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@Legally wrote:
I’m a Lawyer in Murcia, and I haven’t had any case in Almeria, by now. I suppose this can explain why I’m sure about my opinions.
I’m afraid for me this does not “explain” or indicate anything.
My ex-lawyer/firm (a large international one and a huge presence on the CDS) committed a serious ‘lack of customer care’ with us.
Failing to obtain a Bank Guarantee until we pushed them hard….”oh, we asked them many many times for one” (cue the Spanish shrug of shoulders) was just the beginning.
They produced one two years after our initial contract and after they knew (but we didn’t) the developer could never build – it was just a further ‘bluff’ to make us feel all was well
incidentally the BG was post-dated trying the con that we couldn’t claim on it for another two years (luckily the judge ignored that illegal clause),
failing to inform us about the no-build situation/revoked building licence despite knowing about it for two years, actually lying to us about knowing, despite us finding out later they had found an alternative property for another client a year before because of this very problem
failing to return calls/e-mails once we found out about the situation
giving us the run-around when trying to arrange a meeting with them (we ended up getting on the plane and turning up at their office and refused to move until they saw us)
initially refusing to return our file when we changed lawyer unless we paid them yet more money –
and when they did finally return it (again, we presented ourselves in their office and refused (loudly, infront of their other clients) to leave until they gave it to us, half of the contents were missing.
I could go on.We made an official complaint to the Colegio de Abogados – no response from them, no discipline for the law firm as far as we are aware (they are still members), and they continue to gaily operate without anyone willing to take them on in court.
To quote my new lawyer – “no lawyer in Marbella wants take on a case against another local lawyer”. Therein lies the problem as to why it’s very rare for a law firm to end up in court.
So in my book never having had a case brought against a law firm means nothing.
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Hi Charlie,
As you know, we have bought a case against our original lawyer for all the same reasons as yours above (we were buying on the same development as you) + they withheld 7,500 Euro( money they said we had to pay in advance to cover all fees to completion) in totality and refused to give us any money back even though no building was ever started.
In mid 2008 our lawyer instigated court proceedings against the original lawyer who signed the purchase contract, after the Collegio de Abogados failed to take action and the said lawyer failed to appear at an arbitration meeting infront of a Judge. After a preliminary hearing in September (ish)the Judgement was heard in December 2008. I contacted our lawyer yesterday as we still have not heard of the outcome. He informed me “no answer as yet….it can take a long time”!!!!!!!!!!!!! -
Hi Charlie,
As you know, we have bought a case against our original lawyer for all the same reasons as yours above (we were buying on the same development as you) + they withheld 7,500 Euro( money they said we had to pay in advance to cover all fees to completion) in totality and refused to give us any money back even though no building was ever started.
In mid 2008 our lawyer instigated court proceedings against the original lawyer who signed the purchase contract, after the Collegio de Abogados failed to take action and the said lawyer failed to appear at an arbitration meeting infront of a Judge. After a preliminary hearing in September (ish)the Judgement was heard in December 2008. I contacted our lawyer yesterday as we still have not heard of the outcome. He informed me “no answer as yet….it can take a long time”!!!!!!!!!!!!! -
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Cor, what a thread! It has made for interesting reading.
We have an illegal house, but pay IBI. How is that when the local town hall have told us our house is illegal?
We have a registered escritura but no habitation license. Do the Catastral, Land Registry and Town Halls not communicate?
There are no underlying building permissions – not found out until after signing at notary. Why are notaries not diligent in their important legal role?
So many questions!!
First lawyer said the build was 100% legal, so we paid a deposit, he then withdrew and said he could not represent us in the purchase but would not give us a solid reason why.
We decided to get a second opinion and asked the second lawyer to double and triple check everything re the purchase as heard vague rumours it may be illegal. He knew the first lawyer but I dont know if he bothered to speak to him.
Subsequently found out, and he admitted it to my face, that he, the seond lawyer, hadn’t done any checks that we asked for and had just written a contract that the sellers wanted.
I have not got proof as everything was arranged verbally.
These two lawyers let us down, but I dont feel that there is any point reporting either of them. I have no faith in Spanish justice.
We should have been able to trust them to do the job that they were paid for – we at least have invoices to say that we paid them for their parts in the house purchase.
Also we should have been able to trust the notary to check that all the relevant paperwork was there.
I agree someone should check that permissions have been granted, licenses issued and land type is correct. Isn’t that the job of a conveyance lawyer especially if he is asked to check?
We should have been able to trust the Ayuntamiento to stop the building before it was in a position to be sold, especially as they knew it to be illegal. I suspect, before we had even seen it. Why hadn’t it been demolished then or at least why hadn’t the developer been denounced by them?
When we signed on the padron and told them where the house was that we were buying, they should have told us it was illegal and not just type our “illegal” address into the system and over ride it to produce our empadronmiento.
Finally, we should have been able to trust our bank manager to ONLY grant us a mortgage on a legal property, not an illegal one. He was the last of 3 banks to look over the paperwork and say that it was fine to get a mortgage on.
For a lawyer to know this kind of behaviour goes on among his profession and in his country but to say nothing against it, is to condone it surely?
That’s Spain for you!
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Cor, what a thread! It has made for interesting reading.
We have an illegal house, but pay IBI. How is that when the local town hall have told us our house is illegal?
We have a registered escritura but no habitation license. Do the Catastral, Land Registry and Town Halls not communicate?
There are no underlying building permissions – not found out until after signing at notary. Why are notaries not diligent in their important legal role?
So many questions!!
First lawyer said the build was 100% legal, so we paid a deposit, he then withdrew and said he could not represent us in the purchase but would not give us a solid reason why.
We decided to get a second opinion and asked the second lawyer to double and triple check everything re the purchase as heard vague rumours it may be illegal. He knew the first lawyer but I dont know if he bothered to speak to him.
Subsequently found out, and he admitted it to my face, that he, the seond lawyer, hadn’t done any checks that we asked for and had just written a contract that the sellers wanted.
I have not got proof as everything was arranged verbally.
These two lawyers let us down, but I dont feel that there is any point reporting either of them. I have no faith in Spanish justice.
We should have been able to trust them to do the job that they were paid for – we at least have invoices to say that we paid them for their parts in the house purchase.
Also we should have been able to trust the notary to check that all the relevant paperwork was there.
I agree someone should check that permissions have been granted, licenses issued and land type is correct. Isn’t that the job of a conveyance lawyer especially if he is asked to check?
We should have been able to trust the Ayuntamiento to stop the building before it was in a position to be sold, especially as they knew it to be illegal. I suspect, before we had even seen it. Why hadn’t it been demolished then or at least why hadn’t the developer been denounced by them?
When we signed on the padron and told them where the house was that we were buying, they should have told us it was illegal and not just type our “illegal” address into the system and over ride it to produce our empadronmiento.
Finally, we should have been able to trust our bank manager to ONLY grant us a mortgage on a legal property, not an illegal one. He was the last of 3 banks to look over the paperwork and say that it was fine to get a mortgage on.
For a lawyer to know this kind of behaviour goes on among his profession and in his country but to say nothing against it, is to condone it surely?
That’s Spain for you!
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I APOLOGIZE IF I DISTURB SOMEONE, BUT COULD I GIVE MY OPINION?
Cor, what a thread! It has made for interesting reading.
We have an illegal house, but pay IBI. How is that when the local town hall have told us our house is illegal?
IF YOU PAY IBI, IT DOES MEAN THAT YOUR HOUSE IS UPDATED IN CATASTRO, BUT IT DOES NOT AFFECT TO THE ADMINISTRATIVE QUALIFICATION OF THE BUILDING. ANYWAY, IT’S A GOOD NEW.
We have a registered escritura but no habitation license. Do the Catastral, Land Registry and Town Halls not communicate?
ONE PROPERTY CAN BE LEGALLY SOLD, BUT BEING ADMINISTRATIVELLY ILLEGAL (TOWN HALL). THE LAWYER SHOULD HAVE DONE THE CHECKINGS.
There are no underlying building permissions – not found out until after signing at notary. Why are notaries not diligent in their important legal role?
THE TOWN HALL DOES NOT PROVIDE INFORMATION ABOUT THE SITUATION OF THE PROPERTIES, AS THEY SEEM NOT TO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ILLEGAL BUILDINGS.
So many questions!!
First lawyer said the build was 100% legal, so we paid a deposit, he then withdrew and said he could not represent us in the purchase but would not give us a solid reason why.
NO COMMENTS, IT’S CLEAR, NEGLIGENCY
We decided to get a second opinion and asked the second lawyer to double and triple check everything re the purchase as heard vague rumours it may be illegal. He knew the first lawyer but I dont know if he bothered to speak to him.
Subsequently found out, and he admitted it to my face, that he, the seond lawyer, hadn’t done any checks that we asked for and had just written a contract that the sellers wanted.
NEGLIGENCY
I have not got proof as everything was arranged verbally.
These two lawyers let us down, but I dont feel that there is any point reporting either of them. I have no faith in Spanish justice.
We should have been able to trust them to do the job that they were paid for – we at least have invoices to say that we paid them for their parts in the house purchase.
Also we should have been able to trust the notary to check that all the relevant paperwork was there.
IF YOU HAVE YOUR ESCRITURA REGISTERED, ARE YOU SURE THAT THE BUILDING APPEARS ON IT?. IF SO, PROBABLY THERE WILL BE ALSO A CLAUSE ABOUT THAT YOU KNOW AND ACCEPT THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATIVE SITUATION OF THE BUILDING.
THE SITUATION HAS IMPROVED AFTER THE NEW SPANISH LAND LAW.
NEITHER THE NOTARY NOR THE LAND REGISTRY HAS ANY OBLIGATION NOR POSSIBILITY OF CHECKING THAT. IT’S A MATTER FOR THE LAWYER, THAT’S THE REASON THEY ARE PAYED FOR.
I agree someone should check that permissions have been granted, licenses issued and land type is correct. Isn’t that the job of a conveyance lawyer especially if he is asked to check?
ALSOLUTELY SURE
We should have been able to trust the Ayuntamiento to stop the building before it was in a position to be sold, especially as they knew it to be illegal. I suspect, before we had even seen it. Why hadn’t it been demolished then or at least why hadn’t the developer been denounced by them?
ABSOLUTELY RIGHT
When we signed on the padron and told them where the house was that we were buying, they should have told us it was illegal and not just type our “illegal” address into the system and over ride it to produce our empadronmiento.
Finally, we should have been able to trust our bank manager to ONLY grant us a mortgage on a legal property, not an illegal one. He was the last of 3 banks to look over the paperwork and say that it was fine to get a mortgage on.
BUT DID ANY OF THESE BANKS SIGNED AT LAST A MORTGAGE?
For a lawyer to know this kind of behaviour goes on among his profession and in his country but to say nothing against it, is to condone it surely?
I BELIEVE THESE BEHAVIOUR MUST NOT BE ALLOWED NEVER MORE, AND THE RESPONSABLES HAVE TO BE ASKED LIABILITIES.
HOWEWER, MY EXPERIENCE TELLS ME THAT MANY OF THESE DEVELOPERS, AGENTS AND LAWYERS WILL GO ON, AND NEW AND OLD CUSTOMERS WILL TRUST ON THEM AGAIN.That’s Spain for you!
YOU’RE RIGHT IN ALMOST EVERYTHING, AND YOU’RE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE AWARE ABOUT ALL THE DETAILS OF THE CONVEYANCE.
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I APOLOGIZE IF I DISTURB SOMEONE, BUT COULD I GIVE MY OPINION?
Cor, what a thread! It has made for interesting reading.
We have an illegal house, but pay IBI. How is that when the local town hall have told us our house is illegal?
IF YOU PAY IBI, IT DOES MEAN THAT YOUR HOUSE IS UPDATED IN CATASTRO, BUT IT DOES NOT AFFECT TO THE ADMINISTRATIVE QUALIFICATION OF THE BUILDING. ANYWAY, IT’S A GOOD NEW.
We have a registered escritura but no habitation license. Do the Catastral, Land Registry and Town Halls not communicate?
ONE PROPERTY CAN BE LEGALLY SOLD, BUT BEING ADMINISTRATIVELLY ILLEGAL (TOWN HALL). THE LAWYER SHOULD HAVE DONE THE CHECKINGS.
There are no underlying building permissions – not found out until after signing at notary. Why are notaries not diligent in their important legal role?
THE TOWN HALL DOES NOT PROVIDE INFORMATION ABOUT THE SITUATION OF THE PROPERTIES, AS THEY SEEM NOT TO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ILLEGAL BUILDINGS.
So many questions!!
First lawyer said the build was 100% legal, so we paid a deposit, he then withdrew and said he could not represent us in the purchase but would not give us a solid reason why.
NO COMMENTS, IT’S CLEAR, NEGLIGENCY
We decided to get a second opinion and asked the second lawyer to double and triple check everything re the purchase as heard vague rumours it may be illegal. He knew the first lawyer but I dont know if he bothered to speak to him.
Subsequently found out, and he admitted it to my face, that he, the seond lawyer, hadn’t done any checks that we asked for and had just written a contract that the sellers wanted.
NEGLIGENCY
I have not got proof as everything was arranged verbally.
These two lawyers let us down, but I dont feel that there is any point reporting either of them. I have no faith in Spanish justice.
We should have been able to trust them to do the job that they were paid for – we at least have invoices to say that we paid them for their parts in the house purchase.
Also we should have been able to trust the notary to check that all the relevant paperwork was there.
IF YOU HAVE YOUR ESCRITURA REGISTERED, ARE YOU SURE THAT THE BUILDING APPEARS ON IT?. IF SO, PROBABLY THERE WILL BE ALSO A CLAUSE ABOUT THAT YOU KNOW AND ACCEPT THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATIVE SITUATION OF THE BUILDING.
THE SITUATION HAS IMPROVED AFTER THE NEW SPANISH LAND LAW.
NEITHER THE NOTARY NOR THE LAND REGISTRY HAS ANY OBLIGATION NOR POSSIBILITY OF CHECKING THAT. IT’S A MATTER FOR THE LAWYER, THAT’S THE REASON THEY ARE PAYED FOR.
I agree someone should check that permissions have been granted, licenses issued and land type is correct. Isn’t that the job of a conveyance lawyer especially if he is asked to check?
ALSOLUTELY SURE
We should have been able to trust the Ayuntamiento to stop the building before it was in a position to be sold, especially as they knew it to be illegal. I suspect, before we had even seen it. Why hadn’t it been demolished then or at least why hadn’t the developer been denounced by them?
ABSOLUTELY RIGHT
When we signed on the padron and told them where the house was that we were buying, they should have told us it was illegal and not just type our “illegal” address into the system and over ride it to produce our empadronmiento.
Finally, we should have been able to trust our bank manager to ONLY grant us a mortgage on a legal property, not an illegal one. He was the last of 3 banks to look over the paperwork and say that it was fine to get a mortgage on.
BUT DID ANY OF THESE BANKS SIGNED AT LAST A MORTGAGE?
For a lawyer to know this kind of behaviour goes on among his profession and in his country but to say nothing against it, is to condone it surely?
I BELIEVE THESE BEHAVIOUR MUST NOT BE ALLOWED NEVER MORE, AND THE RESPONSABLES HAVE TO BE ASKED LIABILITIES.
HOWEWER, MY EXPERIENCE TELLS ME THAT MANY OF THESE DEVELOPERS, AGENTS AND LAWYERS WILL GO ON, AND NEW AND OLD CUSTOMERS WILL TRUST ON THEM AGAIN.That’s Spain for you!
YOU’RE RIGHT IN ALMOST EVERYTHING, AND YOU’RE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE AWARE ABOUT ALL THE DETAILS OF THE CONVEYANCE.
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Quote:BUT DID ANY OF THESE BANKS SIGNED AT LAST A MORTGAGE?
If by this, Legally, you mean: do we have a mortgage on the illegal house, granted by a bank?
Yes, we have a mortgage on our illegal house. The bank sent someone to the house to value it before granting the mortgage so it is not as if they dont know where it was built!!
We were told that if a bank gives someone a mortgage then it is bound to be legal – this is untrue. We have no habitation license – but we only found this out 6 months after getting the mortgage and paying the developer (our Spanish neighbour) the balance of the purchase.
Your answers to my other questions are sort of reassuring however, I do not have the money to legally pursue this when I cant live in the Spanish house but am paying a mortgage and bills on it. We are renting a property as well (in the UK) and bringing up children with medical issues.
There is no money spare and I’m not going to take a chance on a judge finding in favour of our dodgy lawyers or dodgy developer.
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Quote:BUT DID ANY OF THESE BANKS SIGNED AT LAST A MORTGAGE?
If by this, Legally, you mean: do we have a mortgage on the illegal house, granted by a bank?
Yes, we have a mortgage on our illegal house. The bank sent someone to the house to value it before granting the mortgage so it is not as if they dont know where it was built!!
We were told that if a bank gives someone a mortgage then it is bound to be legal – this is untrue. We have no habitation license – but we only found this out 6 months after getting the mortgage and paying the developer (our Spanish neighbour) the balance of the purchase.
Your answers to my other questions are sort of reassuring however, I do not have the money to legally pursue this when I cant live in the Spanish house but am paying a mortgage and bills on it. We are renting a property as well (in the UK) and bringing up children with medical issues.
There is no money spare and I’m not going to take a chance on a judge finding in favour of our dodgy lawyers or dodgy developer.
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