How the Portuguese deal with complaints

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    • #55323
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Not relevant to Spain, but certainly an eye opener and another example of Mediterranean corruption.

      http://www.fairtrials.net/cases/spotlight/serena_wylde/

    • #95316
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Shocking!

    • #95317
      Anonymous
      Participant

      …….this part of the report

      ”Instead of investigating the complaint, the regulatory body sent Serena’s letter to the prosecuting authorities in Portugal.”

      and this shows the decision of the regulatory body and then the decision of the prosecuting authorities to be the actions of nothing more than a bunch of well heeled corrupt crooks. All sound a bit familiar??

      Yet another example of those in positions of trust not being fit for their job, and one of the main reasons Spain and Portugal are in their current situation. Sickening.

    • #95319
      marios
      Participant

      Both still 3rd world countries

    • #95321
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Agree with Goodstich44 & Mario. Lets us not forget two things & that is both these countries had Dictators & historically one Country as Iberian Peninsular.

    • #95323
      angie
      Blocked

      Being paid up members of the EEC and with the Euro has done nothing to sort out the property crime and scandals in these countries, and no punishment from Brussels either.

      Meanwhile no doubt others including the Brits are paying for this with increased taxes as happened with new Iberian roads and infrastructure etc

      Valencia Land Grab, illegal builds, crooked Developers, Agents and Lawyers still going on. Zapatero toothless!

    • #95325
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Property crime is not the only issue in the Med Countries. Its only that, that where Brits come face to face with the reality. Over charging Taxi drivers, poor quality food & exorbitant drinks prices etc. People ignores it as part of being a tourist ripoff irrespective of the Country.

      The residents of these Countries are quite use to the system & accept it. as as protestations during the period of Franco or Salazar would have landed them & their families in a lot of serious bother.

      In so far as Zapatero is concerned. You just have to look at his body language to find out how many teeth he has.

    • #95329
      logan
      Participant

      I agree with all that is said here about this case. I believe in fair play and justice applied equally. However anyone who has lived in Portugal and Spain for any length of time knows that the establishment who run the system does not. When you live in these countries I believe as a foreigner you have to accept a less than perfect situation or leave.
      The alternative is courageous campaigning, taking the moral high ground with all that entails. History is littered with examples and eventually the system might or might not get changed, but usually not. It’s exhausting, expensive, grinds you down and creates high levels of personal stress. In my experience banging your head against a wall is only less painful when you stop.
      In this case the lady in question has a long association with Portugal and must have anticipated where her actions would take her. The original case of neighbour dispute was settled, so why I ask did she think it worth it, well knowing the consequences?

    • #95330
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @shakeel wrote:

      Property crime is not the only issue in the Med Countries. Its only that, that where Brits come face to face with the reality. Over charging Taxi drivers, poor quality food & exorbitant drinks prices etc. People ignores it as part of being a tourist ripoff irrespective of the Country.

      The residents of these Countries are quite use to the system & accept it. as as protestations during the period of Franco or Salazar would have landed them & their families in a lot of serious bother.

      In so far as Zapatero is concerned. You just have to look at his body language to find out how many teeth he has.

      Med Countries???

      Go to Poland and, if you are not careful, they can charge you 100 Euro for a taxi from Warsaw airport to the centre (10 Euros regular fee).

      Go to Romania, they are going to put the taxi meter on and charge you at least triple.

      In Bulgaria thugs dressed as policeman stop cars and rog the passengers.

      I do not know what happens in the ex-USSR countries but I can only guess…

      I think UK and probably Northern Countries + Be-Ne-Lux + Swizerland are the exceptions, everywhere else in Europe they enjoy ripping off foreigners…

    • #95331
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @logan wrote:

      When you live in these countries I believe as a foreigner you have to accept a less than perfect situation or leave.

      UK is the only foreign-friendly countries I have ever been to. Probably because most foreigners speak English and due to the education level here which is much higher than in other countries (believe it or not).

      OK, USA is also foreign friendly but there almost everybody is at most 2-nd generation America.

      No other country in Europe is foreign-friendly.

    • #95336
      Anonymous
      Participant

      logan said

      ”The original case of neighbour dispute was settled, so why I ask did she think it worth it, well knowing the consequences?”

      logan

      the report says she was happy with the dispute settled, but it was the neibours lawyer who contined the case despite the neibour telling the lawyer not to?.

      Some really good points in your last post, and your comment about banging your head against a brick wall certainly rings true, but had I not done that for years I wouldn’t have won my case against Aifos. OK, I still haven’t got the money (yet?) they owe after 7 years, but damned if I wasn’t going to fight tooth and nail for what’s right. As for the future, well yes, I would advise people against buying, knowing what I know now, and just how hard it is to get common sense that alone justice!!

    • #95337
      Anonymous
      Participant

      I did say irrespective of the Country.

    • #95338
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Yes, we do bang our head’s against the wall and I am not taking a high or a low moral ground. Such matters have to be taken up and one day in the future things will improve, irrespective of the Country.

      There is no need to be stressed out as stress levels have to be managed. If one cannot manage the level than dont go down this route.

    • #95345
      Anonymous
      Participant

      shakeel said

      ”There is no need to be stressed out as stress levels have to be managed. If one cannot manage the level than dont go down this route.”

      shakeel

      is there a missing punchline to this joke, or have you been on the ‘wacky backy’?

    • #95346
      logan
      Participant

      @shakeel wrote:

      I am not taking a high or a low moral ground.

      The moment you challenge the establishment anywhere on matters of principal you adopt a higher moral position. It’s the nature of the beast.

    • #95383
      Anonymous
      Participant

      “moment you challenge the establishment anywhere on matters of principal you adopt a higher moral position. It’s the nature of the beast”

      There is lot of truth in the above. The way I look at this thorny issue is what is fair & equatable for the masses. I do not go out with the view that This how it is done in UK so that should be the bench mark.

    • #95384
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Shakeel

      I know what you mean. I’m sure it annoys many people when it’s assumed the way something is done in the UK must be the right way?. Far from it on many issues. I do think though, on issues that effect people buying property, the regulation and justice system is without a shadow of doubt far better in the UK. As for corruption, well the UK has had it’s fair share recently, but again, nobody in the UK or Spain would lose their life savings or homes, due to corrupt ministers claiming allowances they shouldn’t have.

    • #95386
      Anonymous
      Participant

      “As for corruption, well the UK has had it’s fair share recently, “

      Not, recently it has always been there. The difference is that its not on your face & an average Citizen is not affected by it. Further the masses have been brain washed to think that we are whiter than white and its the Johny foreigner who is corrupt. Just have to scratch the surface.

    • #95387
      Anonymous
      Participant

      shakeel

      yes, of course. The difference in recent times though is that corruption in the UK is not regarded as acceptable by the majority.

    • #95388
      Anonymous
      Participant

      “The difference in recent times though”

      Goodstich44. I maybe taking this out of context in responding. There is no difference in today’s time or the past. It has always been there.

      “UK is not regarded as acceptable by the majority”

      It may surprise you that it is also not acceptable in other Countries.

    • #95397
      Anonymous
      Participant

      shakeel

      I would beg to differ. If corruption on a grand scale is not regarded as acceptable by the majority, then why on earth have the people of Spain not stood up against it? I’ts part of the system as we all well now know. We can thrash against it as much as we like, but until Spain and it’s people accept it’s wrong, and react very strongly, it’s hard to see how those in power who are most to blame, will change direction for the better? Perhaps the current mess is forcing their hand a little, but ongoing cases like the Priors and countless other cases of corruption and injustice not resolved after years, show just how far there is to go!

    • #95398
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Why on earth does people in UK do not stand against !!!!!!!!!. Poor services, exorbitant petrol prices, over laden civil service, Councils, poor transport infrasture, poor education standards, hospitals, wastage, proxy war, inefficient Judiciary, call centres etc, etc.

      Please dont tell me going to Hyde Park on sunny Sunday afternoon with cucumber sandwiches, is construed as standing against it while being filmed by the authorities.

    • #95401
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Angie wrote: Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:38 pm
      Meanwhile no doubt others including the Brits are paying for this with increased taxes as happened with new Iberian roads and infrastructure etc.

      Well,…I will take as granted that you ignore that the UK banking system have needed 1.000.000 millions sterling pounds of national help. (100.000 millions the last year but didn’t recognized, until now, for the government to don’t scare the population).
      And,… I will take as granted that you ignore that the EU money is 0,5% (as a maximum) of the total GDP. (Normally is near to 0,4%).
      And,… I will take as granted that you ignore that in the cases of Ireland or Denmark (thanks to the EU agriculture politic) the EU has been more generous (in percentage of their economies).
      And,… I will take as granted that you ignore about the “English check”, that aloud to the UK to take back money from the EU.
      And,… I will take as granted that you ignore that the UK didn’t sign many of the EU politics, as the EU human rights card, Schegen treat , banking system regulation, etc.
      And,… I will take as granted that you ignore that Spain begun to receive money, after the Edinburgh treat, at the very end of the 90´s with a pick in 2004 (near 1% of Spanish GDP at 2004), and is now near to become a net payer.
      And,…finally I will take as granted that you ignore that nobody give money for nothing, so Santa Claus don’t exist…With the exception of the people who loves you, and I don’t think the EU is in love with Spain, not more than with any other country.

      Regards.

    • #95402
      Anonymous
      Participant

      goodstich44 wrote:
      why on earth have the people of Spain not stood up against it? I’ts part of the system as we all well now know. We can thrash against it as much as we like, but until Spain and it’s people accept it’s wrong, and react very strongly

      I am sorry for your case, and believe me I hope you the best.

      But goodstich44, to who you think is really affecting the corruption?. Who really are being robed for the system?. Do you really think I like to pay taxes to the politic system?…many of the politics never had been working in a private company. I don’t believe that the politic should be a profession. Do you know how many privileges they enjoy?. And how arrogant they are?. Why the Spanish with good education go to a normal job, but the mediocre Spaniards go to the politic service?. Most of the Spanish don’t like them, but what we can do?. In my opinion all the West world is suffering a quick degradation in moral and education standards…and the media, the governments, etc. are driving the catastrophe.
      Why Andalucia always vote to the left party who have failed from Franco dead to make a good job?. How do you think people from Valencia, Madrid or others parts of Spain feel knowing that the near of 9 millions of mostly left voters in Andalucia always decide the Spanish government?. And when as a paid for their left fidelity Andalucia receive every year millions of Euros from the government?….Not happy at all!!!!!!!

      I disagree with the comments about the relation between Franco and corruption, as in my point don’t have a relation. Italy is more corrupted and is a long time ago that Italy enjoy a democratic system. In fact my father said to me that in the all ages a man hand or his word was enough to make a treat, the possibility to lost dignity for don’t make honor to the words was too scaring (I know an old case from a familiar who made a bad business, but as much as he already had given his word he could not retreat.)…unfortunally the corruption explosion is a democratic issue and have come with the lost of the old values and modern times.

      Regards.

    • #95403
      angie
      Blocked

      😆 Thank you very much for that incoherent rant Tree, it made me laugh so much I nearly fell of my chair, to be honest I’m not even sure what you’re talking about 😆

      Never mind though, if you’re saying the UK is as corrupt as Spain, I’m sure you’re probably right especially lately 8)

      Are you expecting a nice Christmas, Tree? I hope it’s the best for you, you’re a star 😀

    • #95404
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Angie wrote: Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:38 pm
      Meanwhile no doubt others including the Brits are paying for this with increased taxes as happened with new Iberian roads and infrastructure etc.

      Sorry, I thought you were worry about your taxes, and to where is going your money…at the same time as much as you use to speak about EU economics facts (that obviously you don’t know) I just tried to give you a little of information… but any way perhaps there are people who like to know more than just angie very personal opinion,…so….I WROTE FOR THEM.

      Angie wrote:
      Thank you very much for that incoherent rant Tree, it made me laugh so much I nearly fell of my chair, to be honest I’m not even sure what you’re talking about

      I am happy that you have had a great time, I love when I can get an smile….I hope you will had a good time with this replay,…Really it is not important if you understand or not what I am talking about,…HAVE FUN!!!

      Angie wrote:
      Never mind though, if you’re saying the UK is as corrupt as Spain, I’m sure you’re probably right especially lately.

      I didn’t said that,…it’s not true. I believe that Spain is more corrupted than UK.

      Angie wrote:
      Are you expecting a nice Christmas, Tree? I hope it’s the best for you, you’re a star.

      Well,…I don’t know if I really have been so good this year…but I didn’t know that you have a so good opinion of me.
      Thanks.

    • #95405
      angie
      Blocked

      You’re very welcome Tree, it’s just that ‘I find understand it hard you say’

      Not keen on the EU and the rule of Brussels and overpaying MEPS and their huge expenses. Is Spain more corrupt than UK, probably, but UK getting there quickly? A Bible saying somewhere says ‘all Governments are corrupt’, written 1000’s of years ago but very apt now.

      Seriously your English is better than my Spanish, but it did make me laugh which is good. 😆

    • #95406
      Anonymous
      Participant

      flosmichael said

      ”No, Latin people have corruption in their blood (except France who is a germanized version of Latin).”

      shakeel……..that’s what i’m talking about. If you don’t want to accept that then that’s your choice, but it doesn’t alter the fact. Corruption, lack of regulation, injustice are a part of Spain, and the evidence is clear for so many cheated.

      Picking on the comparisons of other faults of Spain or the UK, and of course there are many, clouds the issue of why Spain’s property industry is in such a mess.

    • #95407
      katy
      Blocked

      Of course his English is better…it’s Frank, remember him. 😆 He is not worthy of a reply!

    • #95408
      angie
      Blocked

      Katy, surely I’ve not been duped by our old nemesis Just Frank or Dan, I lost track of who he guises under. Is he really Tree?

      Goodstich, you’re right about the clouding of Spain’s property mess, I still can’t understand why Spain won’t address the problems properly and quickly, it’s their economy after all. Their short term greed will be their long term famine. 😉

    • #95409
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Marios wrote: (Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:57 am)
      Both still 3rd world countries

      http://www.euro.who.int/Document/E91713.pdf ( Data:World Health Organitation 2008)
      •Infant deaths (per 1000 live births): UK(5) Spain (4).
      •Prenatal deaths (per 1000 live births): UK(8,1) Spain (4,7).
      •Maternal deaths (per 100.000 live births): UK(8,0) Spain (4)

      And yet, Spain ranks much better than the UK in terms of quality of life. And the source of the data is not Spanish. It’s The Economist of London.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-of-Life_Index

      In terms of the UN’s Human Development Index, Spain ranks 16th in the World whereas the UK is 21st.
      http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:Oh5p-UI5EucJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index+human+development+index&cd=1&hl=pt-PT&ct=clnk&gl=pt

      May it be as you wish.!!!! The fact remains that in terms of the indicators used by social scientists, Spain is a more developed country than the UK

    • #95410
      Anonymous
      Participant

      goodstich44 wrote:
      flosmichael said:

      ”No, Latin people have corruption in their blood (except France who is a germanized version of Latin).

      …Too silly sentence for a reply. SORRY NO REPLAY, it will not be fair to go against Flosmichael if I am not completely sure he really wrote that sentence.
      By another hand it is not nice to use a disturbing message from another person so that he will take the first strike…let me choice my replays, and to who are directed.

    • #95411
      Anonymous
      Participant

      goodstich44 wrote: (Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:10 pm)

      Corruption, lack of regulation, injustice are a part of Spain….

      The difference in recent times though is that corruption in the UK is not regarded as acceptable by the majority

      I would beg to differ. If corruption on a grand scale is not regarded as acceptable by the majority, then why on earth have the people of Spain not stood up against it? It’s part of the system as we all well now know. We can thrash against it as much as we like, but until Spain and it’s people accept it’s wrong, and react very strongly, it’s hard to see how those in power who are most to blame, will change direction for the better?

      Why you think that “Injustice”, “corruption” ,etc of a society…have only one face?. The coast property corruption. When really are the cases of small farm villages that in a very small bit of time could not manage the PROPERTY EXPLOTION. They were not prepared for that river of money, neither the farmers, neither the village institutions. I bet that have happen and will happen every where in the same conditions.

      Perhaps you should think better some sentences….when you speak about injustice, etc….because I can give you another facts, another faces of that concepts:

      There were 23,500 excess deaths in the winter 2003/4 in England and Wales, according to provisional figures from the office of National Office of Statistics.
      Based on figures from previous years up to 90% of this total has been people over the age of 65.
      Figures published recently show a huge spike in the number of winter deaths with 37‚313 excess deaths in 2008/09‚ a 50 per cent increase on the year before.
      http://www.ageconcern.org.uk/AgeConcern/65A93667E66A4695A47ED729B75DE95B.asp

      Britain is a country that is saturated in celebrity culture nonsense, and it is dumping down the intellectual level of the people who mostly never complain about anything. The one thing I will say about Spain, is that there are people who are willing to intellectually analyze their own society faults, constantly the Spaniards make auto critic about their own society problems, and try to make it better. In Britain this always descends into a farce of ensuring that nobody makes any startling discoveries.

      What really surprised me , in my few months in UK, was not the incredible bad public services the people supported, but the fact that people never complained. The British mostly think that they live in the best of the worlds.

      For example, if a train or Madrid underground is late 5 minutes, the people is complaining hard and with passion about the bad service, and about their rights, or trying to get their money back…to my surprise, nothing of this happened in UK, the British customers could be waiting for ½ hour or more waiting for the underground, forced to take an alternative route or take a bus (paid for the underground company), etc…but NEVER complain…my opinion is that most working class and middle class people have been in an “agree culture” for too much time. The oligarchy have said to them that they lived in the best of the worlds….it doesn’t matter if they travel to another countries, they mostly still believe the oligarchy words.

      In one occasion I tried to complain (as I had done in Spain many times), and asked for the complain-paper-forms,…but the other customers and train workers looked to me as if to complain about the bad service was an incredible extravagant behavior.

      Regards.

    • #95413
      Anonymous
      Participant

      The Uk has a population of 60 million, & whilst I am not trying to make light of this subject but 37,313 deaths during the last winter is a VERY small percentage of the total population. Of course it is far too many, but to associate this with corruption is, as with all his posts, RIDICULOUS!

      With regard to Spain: as long as the Spanish tolerate corruption in the property industry, which damages the buyers, mostly from overseas, but also tourism which does effect the locals, they will be, rightly, accused of collaberation in this corruption.

      Trampolin Hills for example, which has now been halted, has sold some 2,600 properties to overseas buyers, not all from the UK. Some 100,000 million euros has been taken in deposits, most WITHOUT a bank guarantee valid in Spain. The local mayor who gave permission for this development worked for TH selling the properties whilst he was mayor, TH doesn’t even own the land! Doesn’t appear to have any tracable assets, & the directors are still walking free!

      The UK has many problems & yes, corrupt developers operate here, BUT they don’t get away with it for long. The buy to let scandals that have hit here where buyers were lied to, mainly over the letting potential, do at least have some come-back, they will end up at least with their vastly overpriced property or properties.

      They can take action against their solicitors if they can show the solicitor was complicit in the fraud.

      In a recent court case, the directors of one property company have been sent to Prison. From the time their developments were marketed to now including the court case, is less than 3 years!

      In Spain, a court case can take 10 years! Trampolin Hills is already 4 years LATE! No money for the buyers! What were the lawyers doing? What were the banks doing taking customers deposits when no BG was available? How was the money from the buyers transferred to banks overseas?

      As long as this is allowed to happen the Spanish only have themselves to blame because they are complicit in fraud!.

    • #95415
      Anonymous
      Participant

      rob6578

      yes, well said. Thank heavens for common sense!

      The courts are so stacked out in Spain with cases of fraud and corruption, it can (and often does) take years to pass sentence, which often makes a mockery of the original case, as the situation of those in the wrong has changed for obvious reasons!!

      The people of Spain can choose to ignore the above and carry on down the road they are on, or choose to protest for a better way?

    • #95416
      Anonymous
      Participant

      rob6578 wrote: Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:15 am
      The Uk has a population of 60 million, & whilst I am not trying to make light of this subject but 37,313 deaths during the last winter is a VERY small percentage of the total population. Of course it is far too many, but to associate this with corruption is, as with all his posts, RIDICULOUS.

      Pensioners must not pay the price for the recession:
      A renewed government drive to end the shame of pensioner poverty is needed‚ after a new report has shown that the UK has the fourth highest levels of poverty amongst over-65s in Europe‚ says Age Concern and Help the Aged. In a country where the richest have incomes five times higher than the poorest5‚ older people are disproportionately bearing the burden of this inequality.
      The Government is set to fail dismally to meet its statutory target to eradicate fuel poverty among older households by 2010. The budget for Warm Front‚ its flagship scheme for tacking fuel poverty by improving home energy efficiency‚ is due to fall by nearly half next year – in effect a cut of £174 million. Figures published recently show a huge spike in the number of winter deaths with 37‚313 excess deaths in 2008/09‚ a 50 per cent increase on the year before.
      With an estimated 2.5 million older households living in fuel poverty and tackling climate change at the top of the political agenda‚ cutting the Warm Front budget makes no sense. The Chancellor should use the Pre-Budget Report to reverse the planned £174 million cut in its budget and maintain funding for the scheme at its 2009/10 level.
      http://www.ageconcern.org.uk/AgeConcern

      Sorry, I didn’t understand you,…“37,313 deaths during the last winter is a VERY small percentage of the total population”…. it this really your answer?…do you really think is an small percentage?…do you really think that it is not a horrible face of a corruption system?…do you imagine how cruel must be to die for cold?… Why do you think that “Injustice”, “corruption” ,etc of a society…have only one face?. The coast property corruption….It is sad you found it RIDICULOUS.
      What really surprised me , in my few months in UK, was not the incredible bad public services the people supported, but the fact that people never complained. The British mostly think that they live in the best of the worlds…You are a good example of what I said.

      rob6578 wrote: Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:15 am
      as long as the Spanish tolerate corruption in the property industry, which damages the buyers, mostly from overseas, but also tourism which does effect the locals, they will be, rightly, accused of collaberation in this corruption.

      1º- Spaniards don’t tolerate corruption, Spaniards suffer the corruption,…it is so difficult to understand it.
      2º- When most of the property market (I can give you the statistics) is done by Spaniards buyers and Spaniards sellers, Why do you think that “overseas buyers” are mostly damage?.
      3º- The tourism sector had been affected (and not too much compared with another sectors) by the international crisis,…That’s all. When the financial-crisis will be over, the tourism-crisis will be over. Very few people (in or out of Spain) really take seriously your exaggerated sentences, about the corruption in Spain.

      rob6578 wrote: Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:15 am
      Trampolin Hills for example, which has now been halted, has sold some 2,600 properties to overseas buyers, not all from the UK. Some 100,000 million euros has been taken in deposits, most WITHOUT a bank guarantee valid in Spain
      .

      Yes, obviously a case of property corruption,…I know that there is corruption in Spain, but don’t get too excited I can give you another examples of property corruption in UK,…and with your excitation you are making mistakes: I don’t know the case, but obviously “100,000 million euros taken in deposits” is a huge mistake.
      A bank guaranty not valid in Spain?,…very interesting,…by sure the bank it is not Spanish and can not operate in Spain,…so why you agree with that guaranty?,…it is the company “Trampolin Hills” an Spaniard company?.

      rob6578 wrote: Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:15 am
      In Spain, a court case can take 10 years! Trampolin Hills is already 4 years LATE

      Yes, that is true, the Spanish justice is very slow,…but an slow system doesn’t means is a corrupted system. In fact a real corrupted system (I am quite sure) should be very quickly…I am a conservative person, the conservative party have proposed to change some laws to make a quicker system, but I must admit that an slow justice system give more guarantees to the persons (a left politic). Perhaps that is too difficult to explain with few words and in another language.
      Regards.

    • #95418
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Tree,

      The deaths you refer to in the UK have nothing to do with corruption. They are the result of a combination of things, including inefficiency, the refusal of some elderly people to accept help (even when it is available), and a very complex system of benefits. Corruption is not even a tiny part of it. Try to understand this.

      As for the Spanish political system, yes – it is more corrupt (by far) than the UK. That is why so many mayors are in jail. Here is an independent table:

      http://transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2009/cpi_2009_table

      These IS some corruption in the UK, mostly involving weapons dealing, very large companies, oil reserves, multi-million $$$ business deals, etc. There is NO corruption when dealing with pensioners getting their winter heating allowance. Take it from me. I have lived in Egypt and Morocco. I KNOW corruption when I see it.

      Andy

    • #95419
      Anonymous
      Participant

      tree:
      You are right & I was wromg, the deposits taken at Trampolin Hills come to 150,000,000 euros!

      Trampolin Hills is a Spanish company owned & run by spaniards, staffed by spaniards.

      Amonst other things that this company has done is to sell the same house to 2 different buyers & to take over 200,000 euros off 2 different people. They have taken mortgages out on the properties, which are not yet built on land the company doesn’t own. What were the banks doing lending on this development? What were the lawyers doing?

      The ‘bank guarantees’ were issued by the Swiss Finance Corporation which is NOT licensed in Spain.

      As long as the Spanish tolerate what is happening in their country by their elected representitives they are complicit in the fraud & corruption because they could elect people who would change the situation.

      With regard to the deaths during last winter 37,000 out of 60,000,000 is a small percentage. It is not due to corruption. It is wrong that even one person dies & it does need to change but to compare that with the corruption in Spain is RIDICULOUS! You are just trying to find any excuse to move the argument from Spain to another country.

      A slow justice system does, I’m afraid mean a corrupted system. From start to finish the TH case could take 15 years, & for many of the buyers that means no justice as many who are already in their 70’s could be dead by the time any conclusion happens.

    • #95420
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Tree: The one thing I will say about Spain, is that there are people who are willing to intellectually analyze their own society faults, constantly the Spaniards make auto critic about their own society problems, and try to make it better. In Britain this always descends into a farce of ensuring that nobody makes any startling discoveries.
      Brits have organised petitions and letters to governments both in UK and Spain, getting the EU involved re. investigations, street demonstrations and of course bringing court cases.
      Action by the British has done more to expose Spain’s corruption than the Spanish have ever done. Open your eyes.

      But as you say:
      …”if a train or Madrid underground is late 5 minutes, the people is complaining hard and with passion about the bad service, and about their rights, or trying to get their money back…”
      😆 Ah, the Spanish and their priorities.

      Tree: “but an slow system doesn’t means is a corrupted system”.
      I could list you many on one development alone where it’s taken years to come to court/wait for appeals. And then the judges are demanding completion despite the development not being legal. Justice in Spain is slow and often corrupted. Open your eyes.

      If you really believe some of the stuff you write, I can only say you are either in total denial or total ignorance regarding the reality of what is/has been happening in Spain. Think you’ve been reading too many statistics, you should get out more and see what’s under your nose.

      And as 66d35 says, Winter deaths in the UK have nothing to do with corruption – try and stay on track.
      If you want to deviate for deviation’s sake, I’ll happily discuss how animals are treated in your country, got a stastic for that?

    • #95421
      Anonymous
      Participant

      charlie:

      PLEASE, PLEASE don’t get him started on animals or he will come up with how many dogs are taken in by the RSPCA every year!

    • #95422
      Anonymous
      Participant

      and 99% will be from english owners
      who dont give a damn. most of what tree says is in fact spot on, whether you like it or not.
      I personally dont but hes right.

    • #95423
      Anonymous
      Participant

      charlie/rob

      to be Frank, I think we’re barking up the wrong Tree even replying!

    • #95424
      Anonymous
      Participant

      thats the sort of inept responce i exspected.
      what a great forum.

    • #95425
      katy
      Blocked

      Has anyone noticed how Tree and Alanthornton always turn up together…bit like buses 😆

    • #95426
      Anonymous
      Participant

      66d35 wrote: ( Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:58 pm )
      As for the Spanish political system, yes – it is more corrupt (by far) than the UK. That is why so many mayors are in jail. Here is an independent table:

      http://transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2009/cpi_2009_table

      You are welcome 66d35:
      I agree with you that Spain is more corrupted than UK, I never have complained about this sentence,…I just try to put the things in the real terms.
      I already knew about “transparency international rates”.
      Let me quote same of my own replays:
      Tree wrote: Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:42 pm
      Angie wrote:
      Never mind though, if you’re saying the UK is as corrupt as Spain, I’m sure you’re probably right especially lately
      .

      I didn’t said that,…it’s not true. I believe that Spain is more corrupted than UK.

      Tree wrote: Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:49 pm
      Obviously we don’t understand each other…it is not going to happen…
      it is OK, I don’t care,…

      When speaking about the concept of CORRUPTION
      You read…”X” very personal story…an autobiography.
      And I read:
      Transparency Internacional corruption Index (2007):
      https//www. Transparency International.org
      Denmark (9, 4), New Zealand and Sweden topped the list as cleanest countries of the world.
      UK (8,4) is 12 at the world list. France (7,3) is 19º USA (7,2) is 20º
      Spain (6,7) is 25 , Italy (5,2) is 41º Greece (4,6) is 56º.

      Any way, the “corruption”, “injustice” ,etc. concepts,…are very complex concepts.

    • #95427
      Anonymous
      Participant

      rob6578 wrote: Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:45 pm
      As long as the Spanish tolerate what is happening in their country by their elected representitives they are complicit in the fraud & corruption because they could elect people who would change the situation
      .

      But Rob,…What can I do?, I vote every 4 years, and after that the politics don’t ask to me any question…Didn’t I said to you that I am a conservative person?, Spain is ruled by the left party…and Andalucia has been always ruled by the left and I don’t live there.
      Please try to get real and put the things in the real terms, because I am listening to you, but most of the Spaniards will not care.

      rob6578 wrote: Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:45 pm
      With regard to the deaths during last winter 37,000 out of 60,000,000 is a small percentage. It is not due to corruption. It is wrong that even one person dies & it does need to change but to compare that with the corruption in Spain is RIDICULOUS! You are just trying to find any excuse to move the argument from Spain to another country
      .

      Why I need an excuse?,… Perhaps what you find tolerable it is intolerable to me.
      Call it as you want: “bad luck in life”, “failure in the system”, “an example of Darwin laws”, “some times shit happens”,…but in my point it is intolerable,…and while billions are been spending in another things,…I will call it an example of “corruption”,…or better, an example of “institutional corruption”,…Don’t worry this type of corruption doesn’t score in the “transparency international rates”…I still can believe your words,…
      Regards.

    • #95428
      Anonymous
      Participant

      ‘Corruption, injustice etc concepts are very complex concepts’.

      What planet do you live on?

      It is not a complex concept to know that theft is wrong, that fraud is wrong, that accepting a bribe in return for granting an illegal building license is WRONG!

      How complex is it to know that selling an illegal property on land that you don’t even own is WRONG?

      How complex is it to know that NOT issuing a bank guarantee as required by spanish law (for 40 years) is WRONG?

      Telling the truth, obeying the law & dealing with people as you want to be dealt with is actually very simple & easy!

      You obviously operate under a different philosophy, god help your customers.

    • #95430
      Anonymous
      Participant

      has anyone noticed the crass remarks from katy

    • #95431
      katy
      Blocked

      I hope so 😆 Alan thornton is a tosser…read my lips 😛

    • #95432
      Anonymous
      Participant

      rob wrote

      ”As long as the Spanish tolerate what is happening in their country by their elected representitives they are complicit in the fraud & corruption because they could elect people who would change the situation.”

      This point interests me. Is there a main party that is serious about ending the corruption, lack of regulation, overbuilds, court cases stretching out years etc?, and general decline in Spains property/tourist industry?, or are they all in denial about these problems because they are just so much part of the system, and feel the majority of Spanish people are more concerned about other domestic issues?

    • #95434
      Anonymous
      Participant

      rob6578 wrote:
      ‘Corruption, injustice etc concepts are very complex concepts’.

      What planet do you live on?
      …I live in the same planet as you live,…a very complex planet. Sorry, I can not explain every thing.

      rob6578 wrote:
      It is not a complex concept to know that theft is wrong, that fraud is wrong, that accepting a bribe in return for granting an illegal building license is WRONG
      !

      …That’s obvious,…did you really thing that I or any other person in the world will not agree with you?.

      rob6578 wrote:
      How complex is it to know that selling an illegal property on land that you don’t even own is WRONG?

      How complex is it to know that NOT issuing a bank guarantee as required by spanish law (for 40 years) is WRONG?

      …I am sorry, that you get involved in that ugly fraud,…it smelled bad from the very beginning.
      I am sorry that you didn’t smelled it,…obviously you give money without checking what you were paying. Property titles, architect project signed for the architect college ,etc.
      A bank guarantee cost money, to you (the buyer) or to the construction company (the seller), before to give any money you should check that the Switzerland Bank was able to operate in Spain, and who was paying that guarantee…so why you agree with that guaranty?…surely you though that a Switzerland Bank name was just enough guarantee,…I am sorry to said it was a very well study fraud.

      rob6578 wrote:
      You obviously operate under a different philosophy, god help your customers
      .

      Yes, could d be that I have another philosophy, so what?,…Why you lost your temper so easily?,… my customers are helped for me,…Please, I hope they have not been reading your post,…because in that case they could said to me: GOD WILL PAY YOU.
      Regards.

    • #95435
      Anonymous
      Participant

      I didn’t lose a penny in Trampolin Hills, because I didn’t buy there.

      I am very happy with the property I bought at La Torre from Polaris World.

      I am, however, very interested in what has happened to thousands of people who have lost very substantial sums due to corrupt developers, corrupt agents & CORRUPT LAWYERS!

      You agree with me that theft & fraud are wrong but you also say that these concepts are complex!

      The buyer doesn’t pay for the bank guarantee, the developer HAS TO ISSUE IT FREE OF CHARGE! That has been the law in Spain since 1968. Didn’t you know that? I thought you were an expert on buying property in Spain.

      Any-one who thinks theft, fraud, & lying are complex concepts is truly a fool.

      I think Katy was being overly kind in her description of you.

    • #95436
      Anonymous
      Participant

      rob6578

      yes, I thought katy’s remark was overly kind, and perhaps the comparison even insulting to a male or female past time that’s at least honest!!

      Seriously though, I think we are are talking denial again here. As several of us have pointed out many times, the the truth is plain to see, but only if you want to see it? It speaks voumes about why Spain is in it’s current situation, and why those responsible for so much damage haven’t been kicked out long ago.

    • #95437
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Charlie wrote: (Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:53 pm)
      Brits have organised petitions and letters to governments both in UK and Spain, getting the EU involved re. investigations, street demonstrations and of course bringing court cases.
      Action by the British has done more to expose Spain’s corruption than the Spanish have ever done. Open your eyes.

      Oh!!!, my dear all you group live in a bubble…as I said in my first post, you live in a ghetto,…but now I realize that you live in a ghetto but not only in Spain but in UK as well.
      You don’t read the Spanish newspapers, do you?…The corruption cases have been exposed by the Spanish society,…and are been cleaning by the Spanish society,…With the exception of some English forums as this one, nobody know about you,…No body know about your demonstrations, petitions ,etc….
      You just don’t exist in the general media opinion…and thanks god, that’s how things are,…because the picture your group give is pathetic….All that sentences about “the lawyers always lie”, “the agents always lie”, “all the politics are corrupted”, “the Spanish society is corrupted to the bones”, etc,…The picture your group gives is of a hooligans group, with sticks on their hands, with blind eyes, in a Mexican “piñata” party beating each others, beating another persons, beating the cakes, the tables, etc…Amusing!!!!.

      I know many of you have become very involved in that “Susan crusade”, that’s why I didn’t wanted to speak too muck about it….but that’s a train you don’t know who is driving it, neither where is going,…I can not understand why your group have take that train,…Perhaps because you are ready to take any train that make enough noise.

    • #95438
      Anonymous
      Participant

      As I’ve already said, Katy was being VERY kind in her description of this person.

      goodstich: Unfortunately you are right, I do believe the Spanish, as a nation, are in denial. They don’t consider what has happened to you & many thousands more as a problem that effects them.

      It of couse does with the trashing of their countries reputation internationally, the damage to their coastline with unfinished & illegal builds all along the coast & the consequent damage to tourism.

      Some-one is going to have to pay to clear all the building sites & that will be the Spanish.

    • #95439
      Anonymous
      Participant

      rob6578 wrote: Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:48 pm
      The buyer doesn’t pay for the bank guarantee, the developer HAS TO ISSUE IT FREE OF CHARGE! That has been the law in Spain since 1968. Didn’t you know that? I thought you were an expert on buying property in Spain.

      …Why are you so simple?….when you are dealing a contract any cost to the company (seller) will be charge in some way to the buyer,…the word FREE doesn’t exist,…and in a contract there are a lot more things to deal…things that cost money…
      Did I said I was an expert?,…No,…never I said that,… but I just have common sense and I am cold,…You are a very temper man, that past the time imaging that you know things,…..and you don’t.

      rob6578 wrote: Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:48 pm

      Any-one who thinks theft, fraud, & lying are complex concepts is truly a fool.
      I think Katy was being overly kind in her description of you.

      Could not you be a little more elegant?…Are not you accustom to have a discussion in a genteel way?….Well, that’s how things are….Relax, I can see you don’t understand complex concepts,…Don’t worry, You can be happy without understanding things. SMILE AND DON¨T WORRY!!!

    • #95440
      Anonymous
      Participant

      rob6578

      sadly, critisism against those in positions of power seems often taken as personal insult against the Spanish people, (and some ex-pats!)and leads me to wonder if that is because the people feel guilty not just for those in power, but because little has been done about the mess by the people themselves?

      Sooner or later I think the people of Spain must stand up and say ”enough is enough”, and face the issues head on, rather than trying to shift blame to a number of areas that are not really the cause. If that doesn’t happen then I guess little will change……unless the economic downfall finally twists somebodys hand enough to make changes required?
      Perhaps that is happening slowly?, but it should be happening a damned sight faster!!

    • #95441
      Anonymous
      Participant

      tree:

      I suggest you check out your own laws: the developer has to issue a bank guarantee AT NO COST TO THE PURCHASOR!

      It really is very simple, which is why you probably don’t understand it.

      You say I don’t understand complex concepts, OK, please explain what is complex about thinking fraud, theft & lying are wrong?

    • #95442
      Anonymous
      Participant

      To rob6578 & Goodstich44:

      I don’t feel the need to explain things I didn’t write,…You should read what I have write first….I am tired to explain what for me is obvious,…and now, I am living for diner and some drinks.

      By another hand,…I can not have a discussion with persons with so poor education that use INSULTS in a discussion, and are CRUEL enough to said that “With regard to the deaths (for living in fuel poverty) during last winter 37,000 out of 60,000,000 is a small percentage”…it’s too much!!!.

      I don’t want to have any contact with that type of persons,…I will add some points:
      1º- Don’t BUY in Spain,…it’s a bad business. There are many places under the sun, really between 40º N to 40º S is most of the world…
      2º – There are fantastic places out of Spain, and in most of the places the property market have gone down more than in Spain.
      3º – It’s a good time to sell, thanks to the actual exchange rates (sterling pound/euro).
      4º – With the money you could get (selling), you can buy in a fabulous place a fabulous house.
      5º – That move will show to the Spaniards a lesson.
      Please, do it…

      Regards.

    • #95443
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Yes, well, that says it all about this prat!

      Ask a simple question & he can’t answer.

    • #95444
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Alanthornton and tree always post together. I’ve stated that before. do the maths!!! 😉 Don’t know why any of you take the bait.

    • #95445
      Anonymous
      Participant

      well you have

    • #95446
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Ignore Claire, I think it’s rather sweet you like to post together……

    • #95447
      Anonymous
      Participant

      lol ty

    • #95449
      Anonymous
      Participant

      To rob6578:

      I don’t feel the need to explain things I didn’t write,…You should read what I have write first….I am tired to explain what for me is obvious
      Well, look I am getting tired of your simplicity,…didn´t you get or understand that sentence?.

      rob6578 wrote: (Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:01 pm)
      You say I don’t understand complex concepts, OK, please explain what is complex about thinking fraud, theft & lying are wrong?.

      Oh my god!!!. You are so nervous that neither could read my already answer to that question.
      For that question I just need to quote myself in this page:
      rob6578 wrote:
      It is not a complex concept to know that theft is wrong, that fraud is wrong, that accepting a bribe in return for granting an illegal building license is WRONG!

      Tree answer: (Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:22 pm )
      …That’s obvious,…did you really thing that I or any other person in the world will not agree with you?.

      rob6578 wrote: (Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:48 pm)
      You agree with me that theft & fraud are wrong but you also say that these concepts are complex!

      …Don’t get so excited: Where I said that theft & fraud are complex?.

      rob6578 wrote: (Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:48 pm)
      Any-one who thinks theft, fraud, & lying are complex concepts is truly a fool.
      I think Katy was being overly kind in her description of you.
      Again???…But Why you can not read the posts?,…Where I said that?…Take it easy!!!

      rob6578 wrote: (Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:01 pm)
      The buyer doesn’t pay for the bank guarantee, the developer HAS TO ISSUE IT FREE OF CHARGE! That has been the law in Spain since 1968
      .

      Relax!!. You are repeating the questions already answered.
      Ijust will quote myself in this page:
      Tree answer: (Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:19 pm)
      …Why are you so simple?….when you are dealing a contract any cost to the company (seller) will be charge in some way to the buyer,…the word FREE doesn’t exist,…and in a contract there are a lot more things to deal…things that cost money…

      Ok, I can believe I must explain explicitly every sentence, including the most obvious. Well let’s go with it:
      – The maturation time of a building can be about 3 years. Can we agree?.
      – During that period of time the company is very sort of money. That’s why they will try to get some money with the off-plan buyers. Can we agree?.
      – Now come the deal between the buyer and the seller: They start speaking about price, quality of the building, etc….and now come the bank guarantee (a cost)…But the deal it’s not over yet:
      1º- A buyer knowing that the company is sort of money at this moment offer to pay the guarantee and get a better final price.
      2º- Another buyer knowing that the company is sort of money at this moment offer to pay the guarantee and get a chimney (for the buyer that would cost some thousands for the construction company is just a little of more work).
      3º- A third buyer will not accept to pay the bank guarantee, and he will finish paying or more than the first buyer or with less extras than the second.
      Well, this are true live examples,…Did you see?,… when you are dealing a contract any cost to the company (seller) will be charge in some way to the buyer,…the word FREE doesn’t exist ….Did I explain enough the sentence?…But Rob, that happens in any deal.

      If to ask very simple questions and repeating them time after time is part of an strategy so I will get bored,…Well, is working!!!…I am bored!!!.
      Regards.

    • #95450
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Alanrthornton is an English gentleman that too much times feel shame for your group comments….and is getting more than your group,…that the Spaniards readers will understand that your group behavior is an exception between the British,…and that most of the British are good and genteel persons. Not a group of hooligans in a Mexican piñata party.

    • #95452
      Anonymous
      Participant

      tree:

      You ended your post on Sunday 6th October (@8.06pm) by saying:

      the corruption, injustice, etc. concepts are very complex concepts.

      All i am asking is how are these complex concepts?

      With regard to bank guarantees, of course a build can take several years, but that isn’t the issue, your own law states that the bg must be issued at no cost to the buyer.

      Yes, there is a cost to a bg, that is part of the pricing structure of the development.

      For many years off plan Spanish property has been marketed as a ‘safe’ way to purchase because of the laws passed by your country, which state that a bg HAS to be issued, that ALL the buyers payments are paid into a ‘ring fenced’ account so that in the event of the developer going bust, the buyers will get their money back + interest.

      It is clear now that developers & banks have conspired together to screw the buyers. Even where there is a bg, banks are refusing to pay out because the developer owes the bank, & they want their money first, in breach of your laws.

      Should the developer choose not to issue a bg, he doesn’t sell the property for less money & he is breaking Spanish law.

      It isn’t a question of a buyer choosing not to have a bg, or to pay for it themselves in return for a ‘better deal’, the bg HAS to be issued. No buyer that I am aware of would EVER deliberately choose not to have a bg. Even the most unaware buyer would realise something is wrong if asked to pay for a bg. Those who now find that they haven’t got one have been lied to by their lawyers/agents, or didn’t realise they should have one, again lied to by their agents.

      Your own law states that a buyer doesn’t pay the final payment until the LFO is issued, that will only be issued once the building is finished & everything is legal. A court has just ordered buyers to make their final payment even though no LFO because the development is illegal, because it is unfair to penalise the developer! Justice in Spain today!

    • #95453
      Anonymous
      Participant

      A court has just ordered buyers to make their final payment even though no LFO because the development is illegal, because it is unfair to penalise the developer

      That is a very disturbing case. How can any fair-minded court order buyers to complete on a blatantly illegal property? I would imagine (hope?) that this dangerous and mad ruling will be overturned on appeal. It is exactly this kind of thing that totally undermines overseas buyers and investors confidence in Spain. Meantime, even if it is overturned, the buyers are having to fund an expensive legal case and doubtless are suffering severe stress.

      It is not an acceptable way for any modern European country to conduct its legal system.

      Andy

    • #95455
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Andy

      you’re right of course, but I think the thread’s turned in to an Xmas comedy!. Those who clearly know the score are telling it like it is, as they can always be trusted to do, and then along comes the double act who will contradict anything and anyone who makes sense!. I know we shouldn’t take the bait, but it’s almost worth it to see what insults, lies and rubbish Tree/Alan will come up with next.
      Every time they/he posts they bury themselves/himself? a bit deeper, and i’m sure the next installment will be just as funny!!

    • #95456
      katy
      Blocked

      I think Tree’s aim is to discredit the forum. Anyone new would not stay long when they saw this drivel. A few left the last time he was ranting never to return…this is his aim. I don’t read his posts either or I would give up the will to live 🙄

    • #95457
      Anonymous
      Participant

      so if you dont read them, HOW come you are making this comment.
      OH and by the way a friend of mine has just told me what TROLL AND TOSSER means it seems your well aquainted with both as YOU look in the mirror each morning. Oh another thing why dont you just either debate posts or discuss, instead of slating what you dont like.

    • #95459
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Alan, you say: “why dont you just either debate posts or discuss…”
      having already blasted us with “most of what tree says is in fact spot on, whether you like it or not“.

      So much for debate. 😆

      The trouble is this kind of hypocrisy makes you look a total….

      The thing with you is, whereas you don’t actually ever post a ‘contribution’ as such to any thread (you merely pop up now and then to show support for the aggravators with the odd ‘Amen’) I do love it when you use words like ‘inept’ and ‘crass’. It’s so very Surrey.

      But then you go and spoil it all by misspelling words like ‘response’ and ‘expected’ (“thats the sort of inept responce i exspected”. 🙄 ) which somehow takes the wind out of your trumpet if you get my drift.

      Having said that I do admire the fact you think most of what tree says is ‘spot on’ as I have to be honest in that I don’t understand most of what tree says.

      The light at the end of the tunnel is that tree has now admitted he’s bored, so it now seems we’re at last singing from the same hymn sheet. Only a fool can’t see that his posts are purely a wind-up that tantamount to spam by clogging up and destroying any thread he lands on with his incoherant ramblings. And spam should be banned.

    • #95460
      Anonymous
      Participant

      you can say wot u want but the fact is the brits have lost an awful lot and the spanish are as corrupt as us! and in most cases with our help.( uk estate agents etc) so you can all whinge but the fact is it will not make very much difference. we cannot change there way of doing things right or wrong. and if it was the spanish that came to our shores would it be any different. maybe, maybe not. we could try to help each other rather than swearing at someone because they have a different view, i.e. troll, tosser, etc is that the way forward, i think not. instead of swearing try to point out another opinion, would i think be better.

    • #95461
      Anonymous
      Participant

      also wots wrong with living in surrey.
      i thought this site was about spain. so perhaps that makes you look like mr bean as well

    • #95462
      katy
      Blocked
    • #95463
      Anonymous
      Participant

      To rob6578:
      Rob6578 wrote:(Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:32 am)
      You ended your post on Sunday 6th October (@8.06pm) by saying:
      the corruption, injustice, etc. concepts are very complex concepts.
      All i am asking is how are these complex concepts?

      No, you didn’t asked that:
      rob6578 wrote: (Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:48 pm)
      You agree with me that theft & fraud are wrong but you also say that these concepts are complex.

      Don’t you see the difference?. theft & fraud ≠ corruption, injustice.
      You agree with me that theft & fraud are wrong…Very simple.
      Corruption& injustice very complex concepts. (A lot of variables):

      Different laws, different cultures: Examples: The UK didn’t sign the EU human rights card.
      Different persons, Different sensibilities. Examples:
      rob6578 wrote: (Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:45 pm)
      With regard to the deaths (for living in fuel poverty) during last winter 37,000 out of 60,000,000 is a small percentage. It is not due to corruption. It is wrong that even one person dies & it does need to change but to compare that with the corruption in Spain is RIDICULOUS!”.

      Tree wrote:
      Perhaps what you find tolerable it is intolerable to me.
      Call it as you want: “bad luck in life”, “failure in the system”, “an example of Darwin laws”, “some times shit happens”,…but in my point it is intolerable,…and while billions are been spending in another things,…I will call it an example of “corruption”,…or better, an example of “institutional corruption”,…Don’t worry this type of corruption doesn’t score in the “transparency international rates”…I still can’t believe your words,…

      Sorry, I didn’t understand you,…“37,313 deaths during the last winter is a VERY small percentage of the total population”…. it this really your answer?…do you really think is an small percentage?…do you really think that it is not a horrible face of a corruption system?…do you imagine how cruel must be to die for cold?… Why do you think that “Injustice”, “corruption” ,etc of a society…have only one face?. The coast property corruption….It is sad you found it RIDICULOUS.

      For me to said that Spain is corrupted to the bones for just some cases in some villages of the coast is RIDICULOUS…and although I would like any corruption at all, if I must to chose between both cases of corruption: I prefer the Spanish case, because it will be easer to clean simple cases of personal corruption in some villages,…than the institutional corruption.
      Different philosophies: Nietche could be a great example against Christian philosophy.

      Are you understanding how complex it can be?.

    • #95464
      katy
      Blocked

      @katy wrote:

      https://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4461&highlight=hillybilly

      Remember this, a few more left too

      Time to vote with our feet guys…well our fingers. If mark doesn’t do anything we can 🙂

    • #95465
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @katy wrote:

      @katy wrote:

      https://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4461&highlight=hillybilly

      Remember this, a few more left too

      Time to vote with our feet guys…well our fingers. If mark doesn’t do anything we can 🙂

      They won’t stop. Tree probably writes from a secluded place (you know what I mean) so he has much energy/time on his hand.

      The only way to get rid of him is to ignore.

    • #95466
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Oh I am sorry Tree: for me, corruption & injustice are equal to theft & fraud, I’m sorry you can’t see that.

      Now, can you please explain why you think corruption (ie CRIME) & injustice are complex concepts?

      In 1997 Tony Blair brought the European Human Rights Act into UK law.

      I did not say that I find the elderly death rate in winter ‘tolerable’. I said it was a small percentage of the total population, WHICH IT IS, & that it is wrong that even one person dies. That is not tolerable or acceptable. It is not due to bad luck, or a failure in the system, & it is certainly not due to corruption or ‘institutional corruption’.

      It also has nothing to do with this forum & property in Spain.

      There is no comparison between the problems in Spain & the appalling winter deaths in the UK.

      I do like the way you dismiss the Spanish situation as ‘for just some cases in some villages of the coast’.

      In the Almanzora Valley there are 11,000 homes that have been declared ‘illegal’.

      Almanzora Country club (never built) has 2000 buyers who have lost their money, Trampolin Hills (never built) has 2600 who have also lost their money. There are many more illegal developments ALL along the coast & there are thousands & thousands of buyers who have lost their money, & the total financial loss to the buyers & to Spain is billions! & you dismiss this as just some cases in some villages.

      Oh, by the way, I don’t understand how complex it can be!

    • #95467
      Anonymous
      Participant

      hello, I had a posting “censored” recently – see Monte Mayor query; I was suggesting that dodsgen was fishing for leads again – the next day my posting was changed –

      SPI should really censor tree’s stupid postings !

    • #95468
      Anonymous
      Participant

      alanthornton reckons that the situation in Spain won’t change & that if a Spaniard went to the Uk the same thing would happen to him there.

      Whatever else happens to a Spaniard in the UK, the property he buys would be built & it would be legal. If the solicitor he employs goes against his interests he would get compensation, & if he can prove he was conned somebody would go to prison, & it would all be dealt with in about a 10th of the time it takes in Spain.

    • #95469
      Anonymous
      Participant

      rob6578

      oh yes indeed. Thank heavens!

    • #95470
      katy
      Blocked

      @UBEDA wrote:

      hello, I had a posting “censored” recently – see Monte Mayor query; I was suggesting that dodsgen was fishing for leads again – the next day my posting was changed –

      SPI should really censor tree’s stupid postings !

      I had a post deleted by S. Dodgson herself 😆
      We all saw yours though Ubeda it was on long enough!

    • #95471
      Anonymous
      Participant

      rob6578 wrote: (Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:32 pm)
      Oh I am sorry Tree: for me, corruption & injustice are equal to theft & fraud, I’m sorry you can’t see that.

      Don’t feel sorry,…I already explained to you the differences…

      rob6578 wrote: (Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:32 pm)
      In 1997 Tony Blair brought the European Human Rights Act into UK law.

      Yes and Not,… Your information is old or a middle true:
      The old Human Rights Act 1998 is an Act of the Westminster Parliament which makes the European Convention on Human Rights part of the law of all parts of the UK. The European Convention was drawn up in 1950, and since 1966 people from the UK have been able to take cases to the European Court of Human Rights alleging that the UK government has failed to uphold their human rights.
      The New Lisbon treat covers and modifies all institutions, all competences of previous treaties. The changes deal with transparency of legislation, human rights, the European system of Justice including the Court statutes, the European monetary policy, the security, defense policy and foreign policy plus major aspects of all European internal and external policies… Not all the countries signet the new EU human rights (annexed to the Lisbon treat) , without modifications or exceptions (UK, Check Republic and Poland; (not sure about Eslovaquia )). UK get that exclusion on 2007.
      There is not too much information about this in the UK newspapers, at last I couldn’t found it. But there is plenty in the Spanish news:
      http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2009/10/10/union_europea/1255172340.html

      rob6578 wrote: (Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:32 pm)
      It also has nothing to do with this forum & property in Spain

      Of course it does,…from the very beginning that you use to speak about the Spanish corrupted system (as a global).

      rob6578 wrote: (Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:32 pm)
      Oh, by the way, I don’t understand how complex it can be!
      (speaking about some fraud cases)

      Well, I am changing my opinion about you (much better now)(I know you don’t care),…Please, Don’t go down with that question…A fraud is a fraud…and obviously is WRONG.

      Regards.

    • #95472
      Anonymous
      Participant

      UBEDA wrote: (Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:34 pm )
      SPI should really censor tree’s stupid postings

      That’s the only thing you can said?…Are you trying to be positive?…Making friends?…are you the type of person that INSULT a person that is almost alone to be accepted for the biggest group?…You are really disgusting…

    • #95474
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Tree is arguing against the consensus opinion. So what? There’s nothing wrong with the occasional argument. Argue or ignore the thread. The choice is yours.

      In Tree’s case I think you get a bit of an insight into the way some people think in Spain, which you might as well be aware of.

      I have to admit that I usually don’t read Tree’s post because they tend to be longwinded and hard to digest. Tree, you might want to think about that.

      That said, Tree makes an effort to try and marshal facts and figures, and build an argument, and I don’t think Tree should be censored just because some disagree.

      Let me make this clear. Tree is not Frank. It should be obvious from the style. I can also tell from IP records.

      Ubeda I edited your post because it was untrue and unfair. I asked her to respond to that post, which she kindly did; there was no fishing going on.

      Occasionally a thread gets a bit heated, like this one. No big deal. There are plenty of other threads, if you’re interested.

      Mark

    • #95475
      Anonymous
      Participant

      hi Tree, i remember you were fishing (like many others) for a job here a few months ago (you expressed a desire to work on a golf course on our golden coasts (coats)); it’s just i saw a card at las brisas golf club(marbella) today looking for someone to look after their irrigation systems (your forte) – quite a good salary mind you; €1,100 net …………. just thought you could pop down and perfect the queens English!!!!!!!!

    • #95477
      Anonymous
      Participant

      mark

      consensus opinion??. Come on, you know as well as well as anyone that what we are talking about isn’t about ”opinion”, it’s about hard fact that many of us have first hand experience of. Corruption, lack of regulation and the problems getting justice have *uck all to with opinion, they are happening to many of us right now! When some complete idiot comes on the thread and tries to tell us this isn’t true or this isn’t happening or it’s as bad in the UK, then how on earth can you call that an argument? It’s nothing more than denial of fact, and as such is insulting and worse still, could be very damaging to somone looking for truths.

      As for being an insight in to way some people think in Spain?, well indeed that would seem to be the case judging by the current mess. Wrong is wrong, however it’s dressed up, and thankfully 99% of people on the forum realise that, even if they haven’t had first hand experience, so please don’t ask us to accept lies and dishonesty as a reasonable starting place for discussion!

    • #95478
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Well said!

    • #95486
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Like Mark, I have no problem with tree´s posts – except for the fact that he promised us a few months that one particular post was his last – he is as entitled to air his views here as anyone else.

      Where I think you have made a mistake Rob is by responding to him. The guidance ´Don´t feed the troll´ holds good here. You may have noticed that everybody else here, except his old buddy alant, ignored his diatribes.

    • #95488
      Anonymous
      Participant

      well. rob wrote about my last post and managed to become a liar.he didn’t actually read it correct, oh dear.
      as for corruption, get real, there is probably more in the u.k.
      also just ask and find out what % that have bought in Spain that are actually happy. that might be interesting reading.
      and to make it very clear i do not agree with the way the Spanish seem to have dealt with those who are losing out on houses etc. which I’m sure is your view as well. so get real where there is money the corruption will follow.

    • #95491
      angie
      Blocked

      Well said Goodstich, excellent! I don’t quite see what Mark sees in Tree building constructive posts, and yes we should continue to point out the negative in Spain’s corrupt, inept, greedy, unregulated residential property industry to keep warning those who could be duped. Another point, do these websites generate income for their hosts through property deals, because if so, this has probably fallen right off? 😉

      I really couldn’t understand what Tree was on about when he replied to one of my posts but it made me laugh as it was poorly constructed and mentioned a lot of things that I had no issue with!

      Regarding Alan Thornton, maybe he has a vested interest in property in Spain, maybe not, but he’s had time to have built his house in Salobrena by now, maybe there’s not much to do there apart from criticize those trying to get Spain to clean up it’s image.

    • #95493
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Mark: “Tree makes an effort to try and marshal facts and figures, and build an argument..”

      Tree: “The picture your group gives is of a hooligans group, with sticks on their hands, with blind eyes, in a Mexican “piñata” party beating each others, beating another persons, beating the cakes, the tables, etc…!!!!”.

      🙄

      …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

      Mark: “There are plenty of other threads, if you’re interested”.

      The problem is Mark we won’t be if they get similarly bogged down as this thread has.

      Both Rob6578 and 66d35 were making good valid points that were mockingly knocked down with irrelative nonsense. Many will just lose patience and turn to a more mature debate on alternative forums if this continues as some members have done already.
      A bit of humour and the odd ‘argument’ is one thing but Tree’s posts are nothing more than a long-winded incomprehensible barrage. It changes a debate into arguing-for-arguing’s-sake.

      Goodstich’s reply to your post totally reflects my thoughts.

    • #95494
      angie
      Blocked

      Hear, hear Charlie! 🙂

    • #95495
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @charlie wrote:

      The problem is Mark we won’t be if they get similarly bogged down as this thread has.

      Yes, but the point is they don’t, and anyway, I wouldn’t let them. It only happens on the odd contentious thread.

    • #95498
      Anonymous
      Participant

      To Charlie: (Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:15 pm)

      Please, if you want to quote me, fine, but please don’t cut the sentence context….it change the meaning.
      Thank you.

      Tree wrote: (Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:48 pm)
      You just don’t exist in the general media opinion…and thanks god, that’s how things are,…because the picture your group give is pathetic….All that sentences about “the lawyers always lie”, “the agents always lie”, “all the politics are corrupted”, “the Spanish society is corrupted to the bones”, etc,…The picture your group gives is of a hooligans group, with sticks on their hands, with blind eyes, in a Mexican “piñata” party beating each others, beating another persons, beating the cakes, the tables, etc…Amusing!!!!.

    • #95500
      Anonymous
      Participant

      alanthornton: you said: & if it was the spanish that came to our shores, would it be any different. Maybe, maybe not.

      If you think my post makes me a liar, so be it.

      I stand by my statement that whatever else happens in the Uk to any property buyer, they will get their property. It maybe overpriced, it probably won’t rent for amount the agents said it would, but It won’t be declared illegal just as they move in, & if their solicitor has not worked in their interest, they will get compensation. Also the liars & conmen will be charged & will end up in prison.

      To class the corruption in the UK & of course it does exist, as greater than Spain is UTTER nonsense!

    • #95506
      Anonymous
      Participant

      To Ubeda:
      Thanks for your advice, but you don’t remember well: I am not fishing any job,…l don’t desire to live on your golden coasts (coats),…I am fine where I am (Valencia-Madrid).

      By another hand I don’t understand the word “fishing” (a passive way to get things?),…and really I don’t like your snobbish way to speak about jobs salary,…No, definitively I don’t like your personality.
      Sorry.

    • #95508
      Anonymous
      Participant

      rob,
      you live in a dream world if you think its worse in spain.

    • #95509
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Alanthornton:

      Please explain how property corruption is worse in the UK than Spain?

      I’m interested to know how many illegal developments there are here in the UK, & how many buyers have lost their deposits due to corrupt developers & agents with the collusion of lawyers & banks.

      Are there similar situations in the UK to Almanzora Country Club & Trampolin Hills where some 5000 buyers have been conned out of very substantial sums due to both developments being illegal? Indeed, at Trampolin Hills the developer didn’t even own the land! Where is the comparable case in the UK?

      Perhaps you could also let me know how many built properties have been subsequently declared illegal in the UK, as has happened in the Almanzora Valley where 11,000 properties have been declared retrospectively illegal?

      Can you let me know how many court cases there are in the UK concerning illegal, off plan developments?

    • #95510
      Anonymous
      Participant

      i’m sorry but are you thick. did i say corruption in the uk. NO corruption in general read more carefully please.

    • #95511
      Anonymous
      Participant

      alanthornton:

      In your post on Wednesday 9th December at 1.21pm you said:

      ‘as for corruption, get real, there is probably more in the UK’.

      Your words, not mine!

      Who is thick?

      Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain?

    • #95514
      Anonymous
      Participant

      i honestly think most people will agree that there is more corruption in the UK.
      only yesterday the government admitted that there estimates on the crunch were way out.
      all the MPs and there expense accounts.
      mandleson cooking his books to buy a property, then forgetting about it.
      you read in our dailys every day and you can see for yourself.
      i think the problem is that this corruption is not directed at you immediately, not like the scams in Spain, but its the same.
      I could go on and on about day to day corruption here just open your newspaper and read, you will find it.
      also paying bankers millions of £s in bonuses (our money)is very much corruption dressed up as something else. and it goes on and on.

    • #95515
      Anonymous
      Participant

      I still cannot see the comparison between the Uk & Spain.

      The UK government estimates about our economy are not corruption but incompetence!

      The issue of state owned banks paying massive bonuses is not corruption but greed, & the banks not realising that the rules of the game have changed.

      Yes, a number of MPs (I think it’s about 200 out 635) have made ‘dodgy’ & outragious claims on their expenses. I Don’t see that as ‘corruption’ but again as greed, & in some cases as fraud against the taxpayer.

      Mandleson, again, not corruption but greed.

      I’m not making light of what is happening here in the UK, but our problems are due to incompetence & stupidity, NOT CORRUPTION. Please read my previous post & you should be able to see the difference.

      I still believe Spain is worse. The bribes to local mayors in return for granting building licenses, the collusion of lawyers & banks over bank guarantees, the collusion of Judges who refuse, even when the developer is guilty, to enforce their own laws, the disapearence of buyers deposits always on illegal developments, none of this happens in the UK.

      Where in the UK, for example is a comparable case with Mr & Mrs Prior?

      Another major difference is that action is taken here in the UK. For example those MPs who have not, & won’t pay back their over the top expenses will find themselves out of a job next year.

      The backlash against the banks has already resulted in a massive tax hike on their bonuses.

      What happens in Spain? Nothing!

    • #95516
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Alan,

      You may not like it but the most respected international measure of corruption levels is that run by Transparency International. That shows that the UK (17th place, rating 7.7) is generally considered less corrupt than Spain (31st place, rating 6.1).

      http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2009/cpi_2009_table

      Truth is that neither society is perfect. Where I believe there is a particular relevance to this forum is in the respective property markets. In the UK it is generally accepted that your lawyer will act on your behalf and any properties that are bought or sold are legally built and verified to be so. This appears not to be the case in a small percentage of transactions in Spain.

    • #95517
      Anonymous
      Participant

      brianc
      thank you for that.
      my point is as you say no one is perfect, especially when money is involved.
      you say generally we are safe here when buying houses. totally agree.
      in Spain small % in Spain is corrupt. totally agree which has been my point for some time now.
      this is what i have been saying that if we had not gone there we wouldn’t have lost our money, so we gave them the opportunity to screw us.i know its not what most people want to hear, but that’s fact.
      for sure it is unacceptable, but i don’t think the Spanish are ready to comply with European laws for some time.
      it will come in some degree but i fear very slowly.
      I’ve asked several times before with no answer, i wonder how many Brits % are now happy in Spain. me thinks a bigger % than those that are unhappy.

    • #95518
      Anonymous
      Participant

      brian_li

      while I agree with most of your last paragraph in your post, I think you are being overly kind?. The property markets in Spain are in such a mess mainly due to to massive corruption right through the industry, leading to regulation being a joke. On top of this, the whole justice system did little to stop the crooks, because once again the crooks were and are represented at the highest levels!!

      Your last sentence???, well I think percentage or not, a huge number of properties in Spain are not legally built in one area alone, as rob pointed out in his last few posts. X that amount through all the costas and the amount is huge! The misery this has caused should never be under estimated or in any way be considered small, and any comparison to misery caused in the UK through the corruption or greed here recently in the news is just stupid as I realise you know.

    • #95519
      Anonymous
      Participant

      brianc,
      also i think most of us knew that Spain is corrupt in some form. I remember going to w h smiths and buying a book on on and buying property there, and in it it said that the notary would leave his office so black money could be passed over. mind you the fact that he left the room suggests some sort of correctness in a twisted way.
      i believe your stats on our not being as corrupt although I’m very surprised, but who gave them the stats. Gordon brown!!!

    • #95521
      Anonymous
      Participant

      alanthornton

      why on earth are you suprised at the stats??. Thousands of people buying in Spain from several nations including Spain have lost huge sums of money in the property industry due to the corruption and lack of regulation. Many of these have court cases stretching out years because the justice system can’t keep up with the huge amount of cases, none of which is the case in the UK! Any comparison is just denial of truths, that’s your choice, but it doesn’t alter the stats’.

    • #95522
      Anonymous
      Participant
      alanrthornton wrote:
      brianc,
      also i think most of us knew that Spain is corrupt in some form. I remember going to w h smiths and buying a book on on and buying property there, and in it it said that the notary would leave his office so black money could be passed over. mind you the fact that he left the room suggests some sort of correctness in a twisted way.
      i believe your stats on our not being as corrupt although I’m very surprised, but who gave them the stats. Gordon brown!!!

      Alan, considering how naive/non-intelligent you appear to be, I would strongly advise you against buying a property in Spain. You would be just a fragile lamb that the authorities/developers/lawyers/agents there would love to scalp/cheat on.

      Or you are just pretending to be a clown?

    • #95523
      Anonymous
      Participant

      no its the company i keep on here

    • #95524
      Anonymous
      Participant

      in most cases i have to lower my sights of intelligence to aid those less fortunate here. as your aware some of you need that consideration.
      oh and as far as our legal system is here you can beat up an old women and provided you admit it you wont go to prison. so whats worse not getting to court or getting there only to be told its OK

    • #95525
      Anonymous
      Participant
      alanrthornton wrote:
      is your aware some of you need that consideration.
      oh and as far as our legal system is here you can beat up an old women

      Do you talk about beating old women from your own experience?

      By the way, one says in English “an old woman” or “many old women”.

    • #95526
      Anonymous
      Participant

      great debating. thank you for that.
      by the way I think you must use the same mirror in the mornings that katy uses

    • #95527
      Anonymous
      Participant
      alanrthornton wrote:
      great debating. thank you for that.
      by the way I think you must use the same mirror in the mornings that katy uses[/quote

      Some clown brought the subject of “beating old women” in the discussion about Spanish property/corruption.

      That really opens up a great debate…

    • #95528
      Anonymous
      Participant

      ralita

      yes, I think that rests our case. There’s a lovely saying that goes ” never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience”…….never more fitting!

    • #95529
      Anonymous
      Participant

      and here’s me thinking your only half stupid, sorry about that. you didn’t answer the valid point. why because your not interested in that only to ridicule those that try to help.
      oh and why do I now realise that your more than half stupid looking into that mirror.
      this thread (Portuguese complaints)!!!!!
      and what about the thread on books oh and south Africa and others not related.. I suggest you go sit down and have a pill or 2 because its obvious to all you cannot debate with any intelligence.

    • #95530
      Anonymous
      Participant
      alanrthornton wrote:
      and here’s me thinking your only half stupid, sorry about that. you didn’t answer the valid point. why because your not interested in that only to ridicule those that try to help.
      oh and why do I now realise that your more than half stupid looking into that mirror.
      this thread (Portuguese complaints)!!!!!
      and what about the thread on books oh and south Africa and others not related.. I suggest you go sit down and have a pill or 2 because its obvious to all you cannot debate with any intelligence.

      Hi Alan,

      your mind seems to become more and more confused. Can you please take your medicine and then come back and maybe have a more civilised dialogue?

    • #95531
      Anonymous
      Participant

      !! but i don’t think the Spanish are ready to comply with European laws for some time “.

      Its not part of Spanish psyche to respect or comply with any law. It stems from years of repression, petty, obstructive laws introduced which did not protect the common people in the street.

      The Citizens did not see that it was in the interest of the society as it favoured a few privileged famalies. This I am afraid has not changed.

    • #95532
      angie
      Blocked

      Alan Thornton why do you resort to condescending, rude posts?

      You call people ‘thick’ ‘only half stupid’ ‘less fortunate’ etc.

      Yyou also state that most people think the UK is more corrupt generally than Spain, utter nonsense! What do you base that on?

      All countries have corruption but Spain’s beggars belief especially regarding property transactions. How many illegal builds, land grabs, crooked mayors, crooked agents, crooked lawyers, black money payments, time share frauds etc etc do you know of in the UK?

      As Rob says, at least in the UK it gets dealt with once reported.

      Have you finished your house in Salobrena yet? 🙄

    • #95533
      Anonymous
      Participant

      This thread should be deleted.

    • #95534
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Alan, no need to build a house in salobreña; 60% of them are for sale and can be bought for far less than you could build for – the town centre is totally deserted as 70% of small business’s have closed in the last year – probably could win a prize as Spain’s greatest ghost town!!!!!!!!!

      have you got the money by the way ???????

    • #95536
      Anonymous
      Participant

      angie
      funny really how you and some others only see and read what you want to, and miss other relevant points. keep looking in the mirror.
      how come you missed this one. TOSSER didn’t see you say much about that one.
      the trouble with some of you, your stuck up your own backside to actually see the real problems and perhaps happy to wallow in your own misery.

    • #95537
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Weary sigh. Time to put a stop to this thread.

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