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This may have been covered somewhere else but I am a little confused, I have lived here in spain for about 3 years now but healthcare still baffles me, whilst we pay our way through private health care I have several friends who are living here and recieving healthcare via the following method:
Go to local doctors with your passport and E111 card, say that you are now living here and wish to register yourself and family with the doctor, all they appear to ask for is a copy of there passport and E111 card. From then on they have recieved the same level of care as any paying person would. The people in question are not of retirement age, so wonder if anyone on the forum can enlighten me !
Thanks in advance
Ronnie -
@ronniedisco wrote:
Go to local doctors with your passport and E111 card, say that you are now living here and wish to register yourself and family with the doctor, all they appear to ask for is a copy of there passport and E111 card.
The theory is that the E1-11 card entitles the holder to EMERGENCY health care only. It would not (or at least should not) include any form of on going care or matters such as pregnancy which would be dealt with in the country that the holder pays their Social Security or National Insurance
You are certainly unable to register with a doctor on an E1-11 EXCEPT for emergency care.
Old story, that whilst the matter is minor the Spanish Doctor will deal as the reciprocal health agreement will pay the Spanish. Once the going gets tough, the ongoing care will disappear – quite rightly.
Likewise, Private Health Insurance has limits and is not adequate, as there are many exlusions and limitations. Half of those arriving at the CDS hospital A&E are in private ambulances provided by the private healthcare companies, dumping patients on the NHS as they do not have the facilities or the client has inadequate cover to provide the care needed.
If you live in Spain and are under pensionable age you should be registered in the system and pay the social security charges for full cover by the NHS. Those that don’t may find temporary ways around the system till they need some heavy treatment but if not making SS contributions are quite rightly classed as spongers or scroungers
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@ronniedisco wrote:
Go to local doctors with your passport and E111 card, say that you are now living here and wish to register yourself and family with the doctor, all they appear to ask for is a copy of there passport and E111 card.
The theory is that the E1-11 card entitles the holder to EMERGENCY health care only. It would not (or at least should not) include any form of on going care or matters such as pregnancy which would be dealt with in the country that the holder pays their Social Security or National Insurance
You are certainly unable to register with a doctor on an E1-11 EXCEPT for emergency care.
Old story, that whilst the matter is minor the Spanish Doctor will deal as the reciprocal health agreement will pay the Spanish. Once the going gets tough, the ongoing care will disappear – quite rightly.
Likewise, Private Health Insurance has limits and is not adequate, as there are many exlusions and limitations. Half of those arriving at the CDS hospital A&E are in private ambulances provided by the private healthcare companies, dumping patients on the NHS as they do not have the facilities or the client has inadequate cover to provide the care needed.
If you live in Spain and are under pensionable age you should be registered in the system and pay the social security charges for full cover by the NHS. Those that don’t may find temporary ways around the system till they need some heavy treatment but if not making SS contributions are quite rightly classed as spongers or scroungers
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Further to the above, I also believe that the E111 (now called EHIC) is only for UK residents who are travelling. UK citizens who are living in another country are not eligible for the card.
I believe that healthcare is therefore limited to 90 days. But of course it all depends upon the person processing your information.
Here is the UK government bumf: http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Healthcare/Healthadvicefortravellers/Gettingtreatmentaroundtheworld/EEAandSwitzerland/DH_4114793
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Further to the above, I also believe that the E111 (now called EHIC) is only for UK residents who are travelling. UK citizens who are living in another country are not eligible for the card.
I believe that healthcare is therefore limited to 90 days. But of course it all depends upon the person processing your information.
Here is the UK government bumf: http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Healthcare/Healthadvicefortravellers/Gettingtreatmentaroundtheworld/EEAandSwitzerland/DH_4114793
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Rob,
I was under the impression that to pay into the social security system, you had to be working and paying into the tax system, well this is what I was told when I first arrived here, although I was not working when I arrived here I wanted my family to be covered for healthcare but was told I couldn’t pay into the system, this is why I opted for private health, infact I had no other option as my NI contributions in the last 2 years of living in UK didn’t cover recipricol cover in spain,
Hope that makes sense
Ronnie
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Rob,
I was under the impression that to pay into the social security system, you had to be working and paying into the tax system, well this is what I was told when I first arrived here, although I was not working when I arrived here I wanted my family to be covered for healthcare but was told I couldn’t pay into the system, this is why I opted for private health, infact I had no other option as my NI contributions in the last 2 years of living in UK didn’t cover recipricol cover in spain,
Hope that makes sense
Ronnie
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@ronniedisco wrote:
my NI contributions in the last 2 years of living in UK didn’t cover reciprocal cover in spain
No one that LIVES in Spain has any form of reciprocal health care cover provided by the E1-11. It provides EMERGENCY medical treatment only for a visitor to Spain (or other EU countries).
@ronniedisco wrote:
I was under the impression that to pay into the social security system, you had to be working and paying into the tax system…… although I was not working when I arrived here I wanted my family to be covered for health care but was told I couldn’t pay into the system, this is why I opted for private health
I understand (but may be wrong) that you are actually able to pay voluntary contributions. However, you could always be self employed (autonomo) as (say) an investor and pay into the system at €250 a month. The fact that you made no investments or profits in a year would leave you with a nil tax return! However, if you are living here you are already part of the tax system anyway. As a resident (and that is now automatic if you live here 183 or more days a year) you are required to make a return of ALL worldwide income, even if it has been taxed elsewhere. So I presume that you were/are living off investment returns or bank interest, possibly even rental on a UK home; just in case, a reminder, you have two weeks only left to get that in for last year now!
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@ronniedisco wrote:
my NI contributions in the last 2 years of living in UK didn’t cover reciprocal cover in spain
No one that LIVES in Spain has any form of reciprocal health care cover provided by the E1-11. It provides EMERGENCY medical treatment only for a visitor to Spain (or other EU countries).
@ronniedisco wrote:
I was under the impression that to pay into the social security system, you had to be working and paying into the tax system…… although I was not working when I arrived here I wanted my family to be covered for health care but was told I couldn’t pay into the system, this is why I opted for private health
I understand (but may be wrong) that you are actually able to pay voluntary contributions. However, you could always be self employed (autonomo) as (say) an investor and pay into the system at €250 a month. The fact that you made no investments or profits in a year would leave you with a nil tax return! However, if you are living here you are already part of the tax system anyway. As a resident (and that is now automatic if you live here 183 or more days a year) you are required to make a return of ALL worldwide income, even if it has been taxed elsewhere. So I presume that you were/are living off investment returns or bank interest, possibly even rental on a UK home; just in case, a reminder, you have two weeks only left to get that in for last year now!
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Ronnie, you don’t say where you are but in Valencia (apparently) healthcare is free for all.
I too know people (not in Valencia) who’ve somehow managed to get themselves their health cards and be registered with a doctor and receive care despite not contributing, being under retirement age and not having an E106. However, it seems that in some places they are starting to clamp down with some people now being refused treatment. -
Ronnie, you don’t say where you are but in Valencia (apparently) healthcare is free for all.
I too know people (not in Valencia) who’ve somehow managed to get themselves their health cards and be registered with a doctor and receive care despite not contributing, being under retirement age and not having an E106. However, it seems that in some places they are starting to clamp down with some people now being refused treatment. -
Rob,
I think we are misunderstanding each other maybe recipricol was the wrong word to use, when you leave the Uk providing you have paid sufficient National Insurance contributions you fill out a form from DWP and this entitles you to healthcare for upto 2 years in the EU country you decide to live in, as I understand it.
I completly understand the E111 card is for emergency treatment only, if you look at my original post I was simply asking the question as to how people that I know were able to register with a doctor using this card.
I have been advised that you are unable to make voluntary payments of 249 euros per month because this not only covers your healthcare but also contributes to your spanish pension as well.
Hope this clears things up apologies if original post was confusing !
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Rob,
I think we are misunderstanding each other maybe recipricol was the wrong word to use, when you leave the Uk providing you have paid sufficient National Insurance contributions you fill out a form from DWP and this entitles you to healthcare for upto 2 years in the EU country you decide to live in, as I understand it.
I completly understand the E111 card is for emergency treatment only, if you look at my original post I was simply asking the question as to how people that I know were able to register with a doctor using this card.
I have been advised that you are unable to make voluntary payments of 249 euros per month because this not only covers your healthcare but also contributes to your spanish pension as well.
Hope this clears things up apologies if original post was confusing !
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The two hundred odd euros a month is what you pay as a self-employed person to cover social security payments etc. You can become “self-employed” and pay this monthly amount to gain state health care for yourself and your family as your beneficiaries (you ask the soc sec to add them to your soc sec number, you need apostolised marriage/birth/ etc certificates and your NIE for this)
Or, if you have no income, you can apply for a health card “sin recursos”. This entitles you to care but limits what care you can receive, for example you can see the equivalent to your GP but would not be able to see a specialist. You would also have to pay a different percentage amount for prescriptions.
Legally, all foreigners that are registered with their ayuntamiento are entitled to healthcare but trying to get this “sin recursos” does entail a bit of a fight!
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The two hundred odd euros a month is what you pay as a self-employed person to cover social security payments etc. You can become “self-employed” and pay this monthly amount to gain state health care for yourself and your family as your beneficiaries (you ask the soc sec to add them to your soc sec number, you need apostolised marriage/birth/ etc certificates and your NIE for this)
Or, if you have no income, you can apply for a health card “sin recursos”. This entitles you to care but limits what care you can receive, for example you can see the equivalent to your GP but would not be able to see a specialist. You would also have to pay a different percentage amount for prescriptions.
Legally, all foreigners that are registered with their ayuntamiento are entitled to healthcare but trying to get this “sin recursos” does entail a bit of a fight!
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@ronniedisco wrote:
I think we are misunderstanding each other maybe recipricol was the wrong word to use, when you leave the Uk providing you have paid sufficient National Insurance contributions you fill out a form from DWP and this entitles you to healthcare for upto 2 years in the EU country you decide to live in, as I understand it
Not sure – this 2 years that you mention is presumably something new. I have been in Spain for 15 years and it did not exist when I left the UK.
@ronniedisco wrote:
I was simply asking the question as to how people that I know were able to register with a doctor using this card.
Quite simply, they cannot or at least should not be able to, unless of pensionable age.
@ronniedisco wrote:
I have been advised that you are unable to make voluntary payments of 249 euros per month because this not only covers your healthcare but also contributes to your spanish pension as well.
As I said in my earlier post, I stand to be corrected. However as a Spanish Resident, it actually makes sense to take their pension as you will not get from the UK (at least to any extent). Maybe the self employed route (with little or no income) is the best route.
The health card “sin recursos” mentioned by heatherpsk should be unobtainable by most expats that are not pensionable – after all, how can you feed yourself with NO income whatsoever. And the Hacienda will not accept that a Brit living in Spain is doing so with no income (correctly). There must be income, even if it is interest on bank deposits!
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@ronniedisco wrote:
I think we are misunderstanding each other maybe recipricol was the wrong word to use, when you leave the Uk providing you have paid sufficient National Insurance contributions you fill out a form from DWP and this entitles you to healthcare for upto 2 years in the EU country you decide to live in, as I understand it
Not sure – this 2 years that you mention is presumably something new. I have been in Spain for 15 years and it did not exist when I left the UK.
@ronniedisco wrote:
I was simply asking the question as to how people that I know were able to register with a doctor using this card.
Quite simply, they cannot or at least should not be able to, unless of pensionable age.
@ronniedisco wrote:
I have been advised that you are unable to make voluntary payments of 249 euros per month because this not only covers your healthcare but also contributes to your spanish pension as well.
As I said in my earlier post, I stand to be corrected. However as a Spanish Resident, it actually makes sense to take their pension as you will not get from the UK (at least to any extent). Maybe the self employed route (with little or no income) is the best route.
The health card “sin recursos” mentioned by heatherpsk should be unobtainable by most expats that are not pensionable – after all, how can you feed yourself with NO income whatsoever. And the Hacienda will not accept that a Brit living in Spain is doing so with no income (correctly). There must be income, even if it is interest on bank deposits!
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Quite.
The tarjeta sanitarios sin recursos is meant for immigrants who have come to Spain genuinely seeking work ie to better their financial situation in the long term.
In theory, you have to prove that your income is below the minimum wage/salary.
IMHO if (below pensionable age) British expats (most of whom are working on the black or how else are they supporting the numerous kids that they all seem to come here with and for whom they seem to get free schooling, for which the taxpayer is paying) can afford to buy property here, run vehicles, make return visits to the UK, frequent Brit bars and shops etc then they are NOT “sin recursos”, should not be resorting to “getting round the system” in this way and are no better than the scrounging scumbags that caused me to leave the UK in the first place. The “free” healthcare should be for those who are genuinely entitled. If not genuinely entitled then they should pay their way.
They are the sort of expats that get the rest of us a bad name and make me ashamed to share a nationality with them.
Gets off soapbox. -
Quite.
The tarjeta sanitarios sin recursos is meant for immigrants who have come to Spain genuinely seeking work ie to better their financial situation in the long term.
In theory, you have to prove that your income is below the minimum wage/salary.
IMHO if (below pensionable age) British expats (most of whom are working on the black or how else are they supporting the numerous kids that they all seem to come here with and for whom they seem to get free schooling, for which the taxpayer is paying) can afford to buy property here, run vehicles, make return visits to the UK, frequent Brit bars and shops etc then they are NOT “sin recursos”, should not be resorting to “getting round the system” in this way and are no better than the scrounging scumbags that caused me to leave the UK in the first place. The “free” healthcare should be for those who are genuinely entitled. If not genuinely entitled then they should pay their way.
They are the sort of expats that get the rest of us a bad name and make me ashamed to share a nationality with them.
Gets off soapbox. -
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Certainly makes sense to take spanish pension as long as you are commited to 18 years, with the uncertainty in spain and other eu countries can anyone say they’ll be here in 18 years time, I know posters such as rob-fuengirola have been here for 15 years and paid there way and rightly so deserve there spanish pension, but again as I understand it you have to pay the full 18 year spanish pension before you are eliglible, anything less than this is not transferable should you decide to return to the UK, or other eu country of origin.
I think what is needed to stop all these quote “spongers and scroungers” is clarity throughout the eu, it seems somewhat ludicrous that people can move almost without restriction in the eu, yet healthcare and various other services are not transparent.
I managed to travel a couple of weeks ago from Coulsdon in Surrey to Velez Malaga in Spain without once showing my passport,
Sorry to rattle on
Ronnie -
Certainly makes sense to take spanish pension as long as you are commited to 18 years, with the uncertainty in spain and other eu countries can anyone say they’ll be here in 18 years time, I know posters such as rob-fuengirola have been here for 15 years and paid there way and rightly so deserve there spanish pension, but again as I understand it you have to pay the full 18 year spanish pension before you are eliglible, anything less than this is not transferable should you decide to return to the UK, or other eu country of origin.
I think what is needed to stop all these quote “spongers and scroungers” is clarity throughout the eu, it seems somewhat ludicrous that people can move almost without restriction in the eu, yet healthcare and various other services are not transparent.
I managed to travel a couple of weeks ago from Coulsdon in Surrey to Velez Malaga in Spain without once showing my passport,
Sorry to rattle on
Ronnie -
@ronniedisco wrote:
I think what is needed to stop all these quote “spongers and scroungers” is clarity throughout the eu, it seems somewhat ludicrous that people can move almost without restriction in the EU, yet health care and various other services are not transparent.
I managed to travel a couple of weeks ago from Coulsdon in Surrey to Velez Malaga in Spain without once showing my passport
Not showing a passport on your travels through the EEC is actually a basic principal of the EU in terms of freedom of movement. If you are legally within the EU, there should be no border controls. The UK’s retention of controls at (say) the ferry ports from France to UK actually go against EU laws!
There is clarity throughout the EU – you are entitled to freedom of movement with freedom to work and live within any EU state, subject to that states internal laws and policies whilst you reside there
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@ronniedisco wrote:
I think what is needed to stop all these quote “spongers and scroungers” is clarity throughout the eu, it seems somewhat ludicrous that people can move almost without restriction in the EU, yet health care and various other services are not transparent.
I managed to travel a couple of weeks ago from Coulsdon in Surrey to Velez Malaga in Spain without once showing my passport
Not showing a passport on your travels through the EEC is actually a basic principal of the EU in terms of freedom of movement. If you are legally within the EU, there should be no border controls. The UK’s retention of controls at (say) the ferry ports from France to UK actually go against EU laws!
There is clarity throughout the EU – you are entitled to freedom of movement with freedom to work and live within any EU state, subject to that states internal laws and policies whilst you reside there
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Problem is Rob it doesn’t work, I know you’ve been out of UK for 15 years but clarity is needed throughout there are alot of grey areas, have you seen what has happened to the Uk and the other richer european union countries, what tends to happen is mass migration from the poorer and younger member states and unfortunately the host countries just can’t cope with the influx, thus creating pockets of tension and poorer facilities for all, the Uk cannot cope with this free for all that has been created by borderless countries.
Once again just my opinion but you only need to read the opinion polls to see what is happening.
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Problem is Rob it doesn’t work, I know you’ve been out of UK for 15 years but clarity is needed throughout there are alot of grey areas, have you seen what has happened to the Uk and the other richer european union countries, what tends to happen is mass migration from the poorer and younger member states and unfortunately the host countries just can’t cope with the influx, thus creating pockets of tension and poorer facilities for all, the Uk cannot cope with this free for all that has been created by borderless countries.
Once again just my opinion but you only need to read the opinion polls to see what is happening.
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@ronniedisco wrote:
what has happened to the Uk and the other richer european union countries, what tends to happen is mass migration from the poorer and younger member states and unfortunately the host countries just can’t cope with the influx, thus creating pockets of tension and poorer facilities for all, the Uk cannot cope with this free for all that has been created by borderless countries.
You are so right, but the problem is that the Social Security system in the UK has for so long been a “free for all for scroungers” paid for by the workers. It is no wonder that the likes of the Rumanian’s rub their hands with glee when they have the chance to claim benefits in the UK. Further, the UK workers have become so greedy wage wise that the minimum wage is above sustainable levels for many employers. The like of the Poles come along and accept that wage but give 150% effort and productivity of their UK counterparts. Result, the employer has a preference to Polish Workers when next recruiting, the Brits then claim that the Poles are taking their work?
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@ronniedisco wrote:
what has happened to the Uk and the other richer european union countries, what tends to happen is mass migration from the poorer and younger member states and unfortunately the host countries just can’t cope with the influx, thus creating pockets of tension and poorer facilities for all, the Uk cannot cope with this free for all that has been created by borderless countries.
You are so right, but the problem is that the Social Security system in the UK has for so long been a “free for all for scroungers” paid for by the workers. It is no wonder that the likes of the Rumanian’s rub their hands with glee when they have the chance to claim benefits in the UK. Further, the UK workers have become so greedy wage wise that the minimum wage is above sustainable levels for many employers. The like of the Poles come along and accept that wage but give 150% effort and productivity of their UK counterparts. Result, the employer has a preference to Polish Workers when next recruiting, the Brits then claim that the Poles are taking their work?
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Hello all, new to forums.
Don’t know whether this is elsewhere, but this is how I understand health cover for residents:
If you are of Retirement age, you can be issued with a form E121 from the UK, this will entitle you to free healthcare the same as the Spanish would get, also free prescriptions. You can also get form E121 if you are on Incapacity Benefit from the UK; in this case it will last for as long as you are on the Benefit. If you have a non-working spouse they will be covered too, whatever their age, providing the claimant is either of Pensionable age or receiving IB and entitled to an E121.
If you are not of retirement age nor on IB, but have paid enough National Insurance contributions in the UK, you can obtain a form E106 which will cover you for Healthcare for up to two years.
You take your form E121 or E106 to the INSS for your area with your Residency Documents, they will register it and eventually you will get a Health Card.
You can also of course receive Healthcare if you pay into the Spanish system.
Other than these, you will have to make private Healthcare provision.
The Tarjeta Sanitaria Europa (E111 equivalent) is only for if a Spanish Resident is travelling OUTSIDE Spain.
I believe all healthcare used to be free in Valencia for all expats, but that this has now changed and the above applies.
In all cases I am talking about residents, not tourists.
Hope this helps.
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Further to the above, I give an example of our own case:
We are early retirees, late 50s.
My husbannd is covered for Healthcare by an E121 as he is on Incapacity Benefit from the UK. He gets all his healthcare free and has even spent two weeks in hospital having an operation without having to pay a cent.
Initially I was covered for Healthcare on an E106 as I had paid enough NI contributions in the UK. This expired in January 2007 after two years. I rang the DWP in the UK and explained that I was a non-working spouse and they sent my husband another E121 with my name on as well as his. So I am covered as his dependent.
When I am 60 in January 2010 I will be entitled to an E121 in my own right.
We both also have an Tarjeta Sanitaria Europa (E111) for when we travel outside Spain. As Spanish residents this must be obtained from Spain, not the UK.
Hope this helps.
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