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I can sense the optimism in the air and this may well be the year when the green shoots start to appear. It has, after all, taken long enough. Where I live, I’m surrounded by orange groves and over the past few years the farmers haven’t bothered to harvest them, but while driving through them yesterday I was pleased to see workers picking the fruit again.
I’ll be watching the Spanish land registry (Tinsa) numbers this year and it would not surprise me if they start levelling off. I don’t think I’m brave enough to predict a rise, but the worst is definitely over.
Even the sun seems brighter, and it’s out in full force this morning.
http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/01/03/inenglish/1357217770_834534.html
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Well, one swallow doesn’t make a summer. The record drop (for that month) in unemployed by 59,000 for December, will not, I fear be repeated in Jan through March. However we’ve been told that the overall trend will be down by the end of 2013, which, if true, is good news for all those resident in Spain. I’m still of the opinion that it will be several years before house prices generally rise again, but a stabilisation may take place in the next year or two. Lower house prices are in fact good news for the economy overall (as it encourages buyers and allows ftbs to get into the market) but it’s obviously painful for people who bought near the peak and through no fault of their own need to move.
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I haven’t seen any swallows so far. I do remember the 90’s recession in Spain. I was lucky enough to buy my current house near to the end of it.
Lucky, because three years later it had trebled in value. It was an irrelevance because I stayed. I wouldn’t like to guess the fall since then, but again, it’s an irrelevance.
Do ordinary people, expats who have come to live in Spain for a better quality of life, worry about the property market? I suspect they don’t, they’ve made their choice to live in a lovely country and couldn’t care less about the nonsense in the British media castigating the country of their choice.
No serious investor is going to invest in Spanish property at this time, but for a place to live in, renting to start with, there is nowhere better. This year might be the start of a British revival in Spain. They’ve been missing for five years during the recession, but the green shoots are starting to appear.
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Rothschilds Take a Gamble on Spain’s Rioja
To wine connoisseurs, the name Rothschild is inseparable from Bordeaux. Various branches of the family own such prestigious châteaux as Lafite-Rothschild and Mouton-Rothschild and a host of lesser-known properties in the area. When the Rothschilds have branched out into other wine regions, the direction has tended to be into the New World or into Old World frontiers like Languedoc, rather than more established areas, where the presence of a Rothschild might dilute the family’s association with Bordeaux.
Until now. For the latest addition to its wine portfolio, one branch of the Rothschild family chose Rioja in Spain, one of the classic wine regions of Europe.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/05/dining/05iht-wine05.html?emc=tnt&tntemail1=y&_r=0
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Construction in Málaga province has hit the floor. This does not mean it has stopped falling, just that it is so bad it cannot fall any more! There are 44,000 unfinished and unsold pisos and at the rate they are selling it will take 20 or 30 years to sell them. The President of the constructors sector says that there is no sign of a recovery in the short term. The worst figures for 50 years!!
http://www.diariosur.es/v/20130105/malaga/construccion-toca-suelo-malaga-20130105.html
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@katy wrote:
Construction in Málaga province has hit the floor. This does not mean it has stopped falling, just that it is so bad it cannot fall any more! There are 44,000 unfinished and unsold pisos and at the rate they are selling it will take 20 or 30 years to sell them. The President of the constructors sector says that there is no sign of a recovery in the short term. The worst figures for 50 years!!
http://www.diariosur.es/v/20130105/malaga/construccion-toca-suelo-malaga-20130105.html
It appears we agree for once, Katy, I didn’t think it was possible.
That’s how I read it too, the prices can’t fall any more, they’ve reached bottom. It’s the levelling off I mentioned earlier. I can’t see the prices rising this year, perhaps not even in the next, but they can’t decline much more.
I also agree with you about the Malaga province, the old boys in Sevilla hate it after all the scandals stretching back many years, they’re trying their best to put the elite of Marbella in prison. Even Sean Connery has had to go into hiding in Chicago, of all places, to stop them bringing him back to Spain and prison.
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At the start of the first world war. The Rothschilds loaned money to the Germans, French, English. They made sure that who ever was the ultimate winner their wealth was protected it did not matter how many extra people were were killed due to the financing of the war in the three countries.
The parallel is being carried out to ensure that the wine drinkers are in their net and it does not matter if other wine yard/ owners/distrubutors are commercially killed off.
I am sure that they have extensive interest in Vineyards in Argentina, Australia, Chile etc.
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I remember reading a very interesting book on the Rothschild family, written by a family member by way of an autobiography. It appears the family financed the Napoleonic wars, supplying all sides with finance, with ships laden with gold crossing the channel when the UK repaid their debt.
Their investment ability does not seem to have diminished, and I too like Rioja, a smooth and enjoyable Spanish wine, bound to be enjoyed by the rest of the world now that the family have made their investment.
More green shoots then?
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One of the most disgusting families in the last 300 years. They have made their money through supporting opposing sides in wars and making sure that the winner pays the loosers loans otherwise they wouldn’t get their loans. These days they own the central banking systems that basicly the whole world is connected to. Congrats Rioja!
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It’s just the way the world is and has always been. Nowadays we call it Hedge Funds, quite respectable everywhere.
Didn’t they also start UKIP? I refuse to Google anything and rely on my extensive reading over the years. Didn’t the guy who started it come to see his days out in Spain when he was told he was dying?
Now there was a man with enough money to drown in, who had places all over the world including Mexico, a rather strange choice but not if you like living in the sun.
He chose to come to Spain in his final days. It’s the sort of country it is, too beautiful for words. That was his name, Goldsmith, the founder of UKIP. His former wife lives in Richmond and his daughter married a Pakistani cricketer.
Who needs Google?
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Their investment ability does not seem to have diminished, and I too like Rioja, a smooth and enjoyable Spanish wine, bound to be enjoyed by the rest of the world now that the family have made their investment.
It has been abundantly available here in California for that lat 15 years. I’m not sure about the rest of the world, but both Rioja and Ribera de Duero are pretty well known wines as well as Jerez and Cava.
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It was Jimmy Goldsmith who was the father of Gemima Khan & the Richomind MP Zack Goldsmith that you are getting confused. Yes he was moved around on his death bed to avoid taxation as part of his tax planning. He also set aside a few million as potential legal cost in the event that his will get’s challanged. ( He had a French mistress and a few kids floating around ) & indeed did have a Cortijo/Ranch in Mexico.
I have been to Rioja. In the past known as “Logrono” where a friend of mine has vineyards. The wines from Rioja were on the table of all self respecting Spanish families before the advance of Ribera de Duero. My understading is that Ribera comes from an area a few degree south ( latitude ).
It was a common belief & with some justification that Rioja was as good if not better than French Red & Spain has not been able to promote their wines. Perhaps another casualty of the Franco period.
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@mgspain wrote:
@Rocker wrote:
He chose to come to Spain in his final days. It’s the sort of country it is, too beautiful for words. That was his name, Goldsmith, the founder of UKIP. His former wife lives in Richmond and his daughter married a Pakistani cricketer.
Who needs Google?
James Goldsmith (Sir) was the founder of the Referendum Party, not UKIP. He knew he was dying so he travelled to Spain for tax reasons. He arrived in Spain 1 day before he died.
Well, that’s the trouble with Google, it takes the romance, the goodness, the excitement out of life. You’re left with a bareness that makes people pop Prozac, roll spliffs, chant Hare Krishna and Noah building another arch on the shores of the Mediterranean.
If you break dreams, you’ve got nothing left but soul destroying depression, a horrible way to live.
I’m off to bed now, but tomorrow morning I’m going to wake up to sunshine, full of optimism, and I’m going to walk down to my favourite Spanish cafe, have a chat to my pals and admire a Spanish waitress with the nicest bum in the world.
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There are some good Rioja wines, unfortunately many bad ones too as many wineries have jumped on the bandwagon. Some real plonk out ther called “Rioja”! Ribera del duero is far superior, not as many imitations. Would Rioja wine really get Spain out of the shit anyway 😕
QM2 and other cruiselines have very few Spanish wines on their list…just a bit of trivia
New world wines are the thing now. My brother visited Argentina a couple of months ago. he liked the wine so much that he bought a few cases and sent me one. Really old-fashioned heavy bottles and very full bodied red…it’s good. about £9 per bottle but sure it’s much cheaper in Spain if you can get hold of it.I agree, Rocker sounds pissed most of the time 🙄
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” I remember reading a very interesting book on the Rothschild family, written by a family member by way of an autobiography. It appears the family financed the Napoleonic wars, supplying all sides with finance, with ships laden with gold crossing the channel when the UK repaid their debt”
One has to consider the difference between moral or immoral lending/capitilsm ??? Not when our Prime minister talk about non payment of tax as immoral.
The family also lent money to Germany and the world knows the result of how & what the Germans thought of it.
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@Rocker wrote:
I remember reading a very interesting book on the Rothschild family, written by a family member by way of an autobiography. It appears the family financed the Napoleonic wars, supplying all sides with finance, with ships laden with gold crossing the channel when the UK repaid their debt.
Their investment ability does not seem to have diminished, and I too like Rioja, a smooth and enjoyable Spanish wine, bound to be enjoyed by the rest of the world now that the family have made their investment.
More green shoots then?
Nathan Rothschild traded debt (bonds) throughout the Napoleonic wars and benefited through an advanced communications network (involving carrier pigeons!) that allowed him to know the “result” before the rest of the market.
He generally held so much government debt that he was to a large extent able to the dictate foreign policy of some countries and, I believe, was the first person to be referred to as a “vampire squid” (a term used to refer to Goldman Sacks these days).
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When Jimmy Goldsmith walked down Richmond Hill to register his son’s birth, he stopped at the wine bar on the way and sampled some of the excellent Rioja. It’s such a smooth wine people forget that it has alcohol in it.
He was pissed by the time he spoke to the registrar and named his son, Zac, he couldn’t remember the rest of it.
I’ve got some Rioja left from the festive season, but sadly admit that I prefer a beer when I have a drink.
I would bet that if Katy and I took a breathaliser at the time of posting, her reading would be much higher than mine, but what does it matter? The sun is about to rise in the sky where I am and I have a plan.
I’m going out to look for some green shoots.
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A very good article here outlines what is happening with real Spaniards that the green shoots lot appear to be forgetting. They seem to be basing their hopes on Russians, Chinese and other non Spaniards whilst ignoring the real issues such as in the article it says ‘like Spaniards elsewhere, people have almost stopped buying houses (in Pamplona etc)’ and that ‘prices are expected to fall further’. So spare a thought for nationals Rocker, not just your own self-interests.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/05/pa … anks-homes
I particularly like the actions being taken by the locksmiths 😀
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More hopeful signs for Spain’s future
While avoiding clichés of silver linings to the dark cloud hovering over Spain, there are some remarkable developments that warrant recognition. A wide range of entrepreneurial people are coming together and starting to build new economic, social and civic initiatives because of the solutions they could offer to the country’s biggest problems, like youth unemployment and an ageing society dependent on state pensions. And there’s actually some fertile ground to build on, in the form of a long co-operative tradition.
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The Rothschilds sent a Zionist delegation from America to Britian with a promise to bring America into the war on the side of the British, provided the British agree to give the land of Palestine to the Rothschilds. The Rothschild propaganda machine then went into overdrive in America.
They family has been at it for centuries in spreading their power & influence. The mases for reasons of ignorance or financial/economical blackmail the Govrnment has/had not seen what the family has been upto & what was their vision.
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Again, this is just one month’s figures so could be just a blip. Or it could signal the floor. Time, as always will tell.
The average asking price was 1,890 euros ($2,550) a square meter compared with 1,891 euros in December, Fotocasa, a Spanish real estate website, said in a survey published today. The annual decline was 9.9 percent. Homes in Madrid, Spain’s capital and financial center, rose in January 0.3 percent to 2,965 euros a square meter, 57 percent more than the national mean.
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I hadn’t forgotten about this thread, but I’m keeping my powder dry, and I have some good news up my sleeve which needs more time to develop. Marcus has jumped the gun, I think, it’s too early to make judgment, but my news is roughly along the same lines, though more localised.
Mind you, I’m tempted, and I’m not having a go at anyone, honest.
Here goes, then. My estate agent pal, more honest than most of the others I have come across, has informed me that he is running out of houses to sell. Most of his sales have been to foreigners, not so many to Brits, but for the past month it has mostly been to French people for some reason he can’t explain – he sold six houses to them last Saturday morning alone, all sorts of housing from cheap to expensive.
I know of one such sale just round the corner from where I live. A large French family spanning at least two generations have moved in with three French registered cars and the same number of French poodles to go with them. The sellers were a retired Spanish couple.
Maybe they’re tax exiles, who knows, Gerard Depardieu can’t be the only Frenchman leaving his country rather than pay tax at 75%.
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This article should be read by anyone considering buying in Spain for if true you could lose another 30 per cent, apart from a poor exchange rate from Sterling to Euro which so far means your Spanish or Euro property will cost another 9%+ in Sterling terms. The glut of property keeps growing and depressing prices further.
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@Rocker wrote:
I hadn’t forgotten about this thread, but I’m keeping my powder dry, and I have some good news up my sleeve which needs more time to develop. Marcus has jumped the gun, I think, it’s too early to make judgment, but my news is roughly along the same lines, though more localised.
Mind you, I’m tempted, and I’m not having a go at anyone, honest.
Here goes, then. My estate agent pal, more honest than most of the others I have come across, has informed me that he is running out of houses to sell. Most of his sales have been to foreigners, not so many to Brits, but for the past month it has mostly been to French people for some reason he can’t explain – he sold six houses to them last Saturday morning alone, all sorts of housing from cheap to expensive.
I know of one such sale just round the corner from where I live. A large French family spanning at least two generations have moved in with three French registered cars and the same number of French poodles to go with them. The sellers were a retired Spanish couple.
Maybe they’re tax exiles, who knows, Gerard Depardieu can’t be the only Frenchman leaving his country rather than pay tax at 75%.
That may explain the halt in the fall of prices. Only needs a few 100 French families, tempted south by the prospect of 75% tax rates in France, to make a temporary effect on house prices. Some of them may have been tempted to come to London, but the prices here are way inflated for some of them, plus the changing exchange rates would make such an investment risky..
As I mentioned time will tell. -
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Well, thanks for that Katy, it pleases me to bring some enjoyment into people’s lives. And if you’re having a nice Rioja with your supper, bon apetit! I might join you a bit later.
(And I’ve never been tanked up at five o’clock in the evening, not even when I was living down in Marbella, your old stomping ground).
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@ Katy.
You’ve posted thousands of times, and all of your posts have been negative and downright nasty. It can’t be right.
You must surely have enjoyed a mind-blowing sunset, the joy of a baby’s smile, music to make your heart sing, and all the other things that the rest of us enjoy in life.
Why do you do it?
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@Rocker wrote:
@ Katy.
You’ve posted thousands of times, and all of your posts have been negative and downright nasty. It can’t be right.
You must surely have enjoyed a mind-blowing sunset, the joy of a baby’s smile, music to make your heart sing, and all the other things that the rest of us enjoy in life.
Why do you do it?
Maybe it’s people posting shite and untruths that brings out the worse in me 😉 As for the good things I have seen stunning sunsets everywhere in the world and there is life out of Spain you know!
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@katy wrote:
there is life out of Spain you know!
I agree there is a tendency among expats to believe Spain is the be all and end al la Mr Rocker. They come to Spain on holiday and the contrast to their ordinary lives unsettles them. They take for the average person the enormous step to move and live there. Their expectations for a new hedonistic life style are generally speaking unrealistic.
It’s a holiday lifestyle for a while and as their old life fades in the memory Spain becomes their entire focus. Relationships with family left behind also fade with the passage of time.
Personally I find Spain a fairly dreary sad place on the expat costas circuit. There are small enclaves which are quite agreeable but generally it’s a concrete jungle. Of course if you live in one in UK then anything is an improvement. Much more interesting in the historical cities of Sevilla, Toledo, Zaragoza and the like. Wonderful galleries in Madrid. Yet the 80% of Spain left in the hinterland is uninteresting and barren. Catalonia is attractive and vibrant but it’s not Spain as the Catalans will tell you. Galicia is pretty and worth a visit once or twice but that’s where it ends.
Europe has more interesting destinations than Spain and as for living in the country make sure you know it well before taking that decision. You may not be able to reverse it so easily.
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@Rocker wrote:
@ Katy.
You’ve posted thousands of times, and all of your posts have been negative and downright nasty. It can’t be right.
You must surely have enjoyed a mind-blowing sunset, the joy of a baby’s smile, music to make your heart sing, and all the other things that the rest of us enjoy in life.
Why do you do it?
In a sense. it doesn’t matter, so long as the true events and facts are published here. I enjoy your on-the-ground observations, the same way I do Chopera or MGSpain. They may be only anecdotal but they give a glimpse of what is happening locally.
It remains to be seen whether the halt in house price falls is a blip or is in fact the long awaited turning of the tide. The Spanish government has promised the economy will enter growth by the end of the year (despite more pessimistic views from people who’ve never step foot in the country). They may be wrong, or they may be proved right – we shall see as the year goes on.
You do have to wonder at the mentality of a type of poster, when faced with the possibility of welcome good news to revert to “WWaaa Whaaa it’s not fair, you’re all lying and talking sh**t, etc etc.” -
Look back on this forum and we have had green shoot type threads since the slump began. All from people with interests in the property business…and you of course who doesn’t own property or seem to have a job. Unless your job is trawling the internet for any sliver of good news from Spain. All those properties are selling/going up/economy/jobs threads have been proved wrong.
Of course it must be annoying for a few people to point out the truth on this forum. The bottom line is no-one believes any news coming out of estate agents which is where most of your stuff comes from directly or indirectly and Rockers who makes it up as he goes along.
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@katy wrote:
Look back on this forum and we have had green shoot type threads since the slump began. All from people with interests in the property business…and you of course who doesn’t own property or seem to have a job. Unless your job is trawling the internet for any sliver of good news from Spain. All those properties are selling/going up/economy/jobs threads have been proved wrong.
Of course it must be annoying for a few people to point out the truth on this forum. The bottom line is no-one believes any news coming out of estate agents which is where most of your stuff comes from directly or indirectly and Rockers who makes it up as he goes along.
You’re on a thread that has pointed out the fall in prices has stopped (of course we don’t know yet if it is only for a time). The source article was from Bloomberg.
It’s interesting that you’re in denial over this, and reverting to calling other posters liars and people with vested interest. No chance I suppose you can’t stick to the subject without all the ad-homs? Or is it a case of personal projection?
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logan wrote:Personally I find Spain a fairly dreary sad place on the expat costas circuit. There are small enclaves which are quite agreeable but generally it’s a concrete jungle..
This is not true, except maybe about 4 km from the sea. Go beyond that and you will find nice mountains, caves, forests, canyons, hikes, history, etc. Plus sun.
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@katy wrote:
The fall in prices hasn’t stopped on the costas. I know a lot of people there, some in the property business.Prices won’t stop falling. until they start selling.
Again, according to that article
The Murcia region had the biggest price gain at 1 percent and the largest drop was 0.9 percent in Cantabria.
We’ll have to see more detailed breakdowns before working out if the fall in price has stopped (or not) on the costas. Remember we are talking about different parts, whether up in Catalonia (Costa Brava) or down south, and all points in between.
Rocker claims there have been sales recently in his locality. -
I agree ralita there are some attractive places inland where the majority never venture. I was generalising about expat Spain and did qualify my remarks.
I traveled extensively in La Rioja last summer and was astonished by the natural beauty of parts of the province and never saw a single tourist or met an expat. Bliss. 🙂 . -
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@logan wrote:
I agree ralita there are some attractive places inland where the majority never venture. I was generalising about expat Spain and did qualify my remarks.
I traveled extensively in La Rioja last summer and was astonished by the natural beauty of parts of the province and never saw a single tourist or met an expat. Bliss. 🙂 .I feel the same way about Cantabria – I’ve never come across a Brit there (although you do get European tourists passing through). But I’ve now discovered there’s a Brit there who’s starting a brewing company! Before you know it there’ll be British breakfasts and fish and chip shops on offer… or maybe not
http://loffit.abc.es/2013/02/07/un-britanico-en-cantabria/ -
I have nothing per se against expats, I’m one myself. When I travel I enjoy meeting local people, eating local food and avoiding crowds that’s all.
Where I live in France there are an odd few foreigners but I don’t meet them. Not because of any other reason than I don’t need to. I like the French, they are my friends and distant neighbours. 🙂 -
Spain is not for everyone, for the million or so expats who live here there must be quite a number who have found that truth and returned home. Katy and Angie are two examples on this very forum of people who should never have come to live in Spain in the first place and their time here must have been painful for them. And I’m sorry to hear that, I really am.
And it doesn’t do any harm to hear their negativity about Spain, even thousands of times if it prevents others from suffering likewise.
Nor does it do any harm to hear the other side, from people like me, people who have come to live in Spain and love it.
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Come off it Rocker. To suggest Katy and Angie post negative comments about Spain because they once lived in the country and found it not to their liking is disingenuous in the extreme and does you no credit..
They and I try to post the actual facts simply to combat the bull shit written about Spain which is reality a very corrupt and difficult country in which to invest money.
Readers of this forum are able to see that the reality of Spain is somewhat different to the rubbish touted by those who seek only to persuade people to part with their cash.
Readers are made aware that investing their money in Spanish property is a high risk process fraught with potential difficulties and costs. It’s thanks to Angie and Katy we have an alternative and truthful view based on their intimate knowledge of the country.
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@logan wrote:
Come off it Rocker. To suggest Katy and Angie post negative comments about Spain because they once lived in the country and found it not to their liking is disingenuous in the extreme and does you no credit..
They and I try to post the actual facts simply to combat the bull shit written about Spain which is reality a very corrupt and difficult country in which to invest money.
Readers of this forum are able to see that the reality of Spain is somewhat different to the rubbish touted by those who seek only to persuade people to part with their cash.
Readers are made aware that investing their money in Spanish property is a high risk process fraught with potential difficulties and costs. It’s thanks to Angie and Katy we have an alternative and truthful view based on their intimate knowledge of the country.
There is nothing disingenuous about my post concerning Katy and Angie, I merely repeated what they themselves have posted thousands of times, namely that Spain was not for them.
I have myself posted many times that purchasing property in Spain, especially at this time, is foolish in the extreme, it’s something you yourself should have realised in the past and both of us have warned people of the dangers, over and over again.
And Spain is no more corrupt than France and many other Mediterranean countries, not that corruption is something I condone and I didn’t come to live in Spain because of it; like most sensible expats I came for the weather.
I happen to like living among fellow expats and have a great social life because of it, but I respect people like yourself who prefer to live more isolated lives.
Good luck to you, Katy and Angie, the bare facts are that you don’t like Spain and I do, hence this discussion.
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There are times I disagree with Rocker’s analysis, but one thing is for sure. He lives in the country, and so is in a better place to let us know what is going on currently. Those of us no longer in Spain – Myself, Katy, Logan, angie/caveatemptor – should do well to remember that, even if we still have contacts there. Of course his experiences are only of one place in Spain, so others here like MGSpain, the BCN guy and Chopera, can only add to our knowledge.
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Rocker please don’t generalise about me having had a ‘painful time in Spain and that I should never have ‘come to live in Spain’. We suffered no pain, no financial loss, no bad neighbours, no hospitalisation or any such thing.
When we moved there it was because we wanted to, to try it, to absorb into the life with Spaniards and the nicer Brits and other nationalities. I have fond memories of time there, I visit at least 3 times a year to friends who still live there but would prefer to return if they could sell. Have lived in France too and enjoyed it.
The only painful or stressful time was dealing with Ocean Estates which we won against, they may never have come across anyone so determined as me and a small handful of others, and we eventually drummed them out of Spain to everyone’s advantage.
Despite our problems with them, my mission was to warn others of Ocean and similar. Our main reason to return home was family. We made money in Spain unlike 1000’s of others, but we had to fight for our rights.
As logan says it was disingenuous of you to state that, and please don’t feel sorry for us, we did all right seriously, I take exception to you stating ‘the bare facts are that I don’t like Spain’ would you like me to list my posts on what I do like about Spain? or re-state what I’ve said? It’s like a wind-up I’m afraid 🙄
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……………….and to add to angies post I have invested money in Spain as far back as the late nineteen seventies. I also did well and loved living and operating in the country for over a decade. It taught me many things about the Spanish and the country. I like them both very much. However I do have a deep personal insight into how the country operates when it come to business and property investment and it’s completely negative.
If I post a negative comment on here it is not because I dislike the country or it’s people it’s because I have arrived at that conclusion by research and on the ground contacts. I spend lot of time in the country and still own property and land holdings which date back many years.
I have completely lost my confidence as an investor in Spain and in property generally and doubt I will ever regain it in my lifetime. I say to anyone thinking of buying property in the country in the current climate don’t do it walk away and stay away. It will cost you very dear in the long run.
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@Rocker wrote:
Spain is not for everyone, for the million or so expats who live here there must be quite a number who have found that truth and returned home. Katy and Angie are two examples on this very forum of people who should never have come to live in Spain in the first place and their time here must have been painful for them. .
Why should I never have come to Spain 😯 I lived happily there for about 10 years until the developers f***ed the place up, service got crap, spanish got ruder. I also spent a year at Sevilla university. We did look at other places in Spain but found out they had f****d them up too. Isn’t it enough making up stories about property selling like hotcakes without assuming you know anything about Angie and I
Nice try to discredit us though…can’t be Spain that’s wrong can it! -
Well, I’m pleased that both Angie and Logan confess to loving Spain and its people, just like I do. I’m pleasantly surprised, it is not the impression I got from reading their previous posts on this forum.
Just goes to show, never judge a book by its cover, especially it it’s Fifty Shades Of Grey.
There’s only one other to come and then we can pass around the peace pipe. I wonder . . .
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Rocker I’ve told you what I don’t like about Spain and it’s to do with the unregulated property market, the exorbitant costs of buying and selling, and I point out sometimes about the poor build quality and hype, the country per se is ok, the Politicians like many elsewhere are corrupt, as are it’s mayors and town halls. The over-valuations were obscene as was the over-build.
The problem facing it’s property market is the sheer glut of unsold homes that will even by Mark Stucklin’s estimate could take 20 years to sell, the bad bank could depress property further and there’s plenty of views from economists and others that say prices are likely to fall further.
It’s also not about confessing to loving Spain, I do like it though, my preferences are France, Italy, and the US. We tried Spain and glad we did, but so glad we sold when we did, we could have lost a packet had we stayed. When we return, we get the best of it without any angst of property worries.
When Spain shifts a million of it’s oversupply, then there could be light 🙄
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Incidentally, away from the bribe allegations, there have been some promising news stories this week, that hopefully will start to address the damaging high unemployment in Spain. Apart from the new car to be built by Nissan in Barcelona, Indra has won a contract with the Indonesian navy, Talgo has signed a deal to design trains for Russia, and a Spanish company has signed a deal to provide healthcare software in the US http://www.spaintechnologyforlife.com/icex/cda/controller/pageGen/0,3346,1549487_6719796_6728280_4654230,00.html
It’s not a done deal yet, but the President of Kazakhstan (very rich in oil and uranium) met heads of Talgo and Airbus military this week http://en.tengrinews.kz/companies/President-Nazarbayev-meets-heads-of-Patentes-Talgo-SA-and-Airbus-Military-16719/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
And on a more pressing issue, Rajoy walked away fron the latest EU budget deal with 925 million to use to reduce youth unemployment – it’s anticipated that firms hiring youngsters will escape paying tax + social security fees.
Oh, and btw the Ibex has started to recover again (it was hit hard by the bribe allegations – as pointed out on this forum) Up 2% today! -
@angie wrote:
Rocker I’ve told you what I don’t like about Spain and it’s to do with the unregulated property market, the exorbitant costs of buying and selling, and I point out sometimes about the poor build quality and hype, the country per se is ok, the Politicians like many elsewhere are corrupt, as are it’s mayors and town halls. The over-valuations were obscene as was the over-build.
The problem facing it’s property market is the sheer glut of unsold homes that will even by Mark Stucklin’s estimate could take 20 years to sell, the bad bank could depress property further and there’s plenty of views from economists and others that say prices are likely to fall further.
It’s also not about confessing to loving Spain, I do like it though, my preferences are France, Italy, and the US. We tried Spain and glad we did, but so glad we sold when we did, we could have lost a packet had we stayed. When we return, we get the best of it without any angst of property worries.
That’s exactly how we felt, our main asset was the Spanish house. It was apparent for a couple of years before we left that Spain was heading for a train wreck. Yes we miss some things. Would be nice to pop down to our favourite chiringuito for lunch…as long as we could come back home…here in the UK. A lovely comfortable house in a good area where nothing goes wrong…and it has increased in value 😀 Still have our cruise and florida and caribbean holidays which we had in Spain to to get away from the cold costa
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@DBMarcos99 wrote:
Incidentally, away from the bribe allegations, there have been some promising news stories this week, that hopefully will start to address the damaging high unemployment in Spain. Apart from the new car to be built by Nissan in Barcelona, Indra has won a contract with the Indonesian navy, Talgo has signed a deal to design trains for Russia, and a Spanish company has signed a deal to provide healthcare software in the US http://www.spaintechnologyforlife.com/icex/cda/controller/pageGen/0,3346,1549487_6719796_6728280_4654230,00.html
It’s not a done deal yet, but the President of Kazakhstan (very rich in oil and uranium) met heads of Talgo and Airbus military this week http://en.tengrinews.kz/companies/President-Nazarbayev-meets-heads-of-Patentes-Talgo-SA-and-Airbus-Military-16719/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
And on a more pressing issue, Rajoy walked away fron the latest EU budget deal with 925 million to use to reduce youth unemployment – it’s anticipated that firms hiring youngsters will escape paying tax + social security fees.
Oh, and btw the Ibex has started to recover again (it was hit hard by the bribe allegations – as pointed out on this forum) Up 2% today!Have you ever thought about putting this stuff on a spansih forum…they could do with a little cheering up 🙄
Spain’s consumer confidence, one of the lowest in the world!
http://www.diariosur.es/rc/20130208/economia/confianza-consumidor-espanol-entre-201302081122.html
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@katy wrote:
@angie wrote:
Rocker I’ve told you what I don’t like about Spain and it’s to do with the unregulated property market, the exorbitant costs of buying and selling, and I point out sometimes about the poor build quality and hype, the country per se is ok, the Politicians like many elsewhere are corrupt, as are it’s mayors and town halls. The over-valuations were obscene as was the over-build.
The problem facing it’s property market is the sheer glut of unsold homes that will even by Mark Stucklin’s estimate could take 20 years to sell, the bad bank could depress property further and there’s plenty of views from economists and others that say prices are likely to fall further.
It’s also not about confessing to loving Spain, I do like it though, my preferences are France, Italy, and the US. We tried Spain and glad we did, but so glad we sold when we did, we could have lost a packet had we stayed. When we return, we get the best of it without any angst of property worries.
That’s exactly how we felt, our main asset was the Spanish house. It was apparent for a couple of years before we left that Spain was heading for a train wreck. Yes we miss some things. Would be nice to pop down to our favourite chiringuito for lunch…as long as we could come back home…here in the UK. A lovely comfortable house in a good area where nothing goes wrong…and it has increased in value 😀 Still have our cruise and florida and caribbean holidays which we had in Spain to to get away from the cold costa
Wasn’t going to respond, but since you couldn’t resist your dig in your following post…
If your life really is so much better in your UK retreat, why have you spent the last 5 years spamming several Spain talkboards with your constant talking down of the place? It really doesn’t compute you know?
You come across as a very bitter and unhappy person, who only gets release by knocking Spain, and screeching at anyone who has good things to say about the country. Realise that people who have different experiences and opinions may, just may not be telling “lies and talking sh***t”
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Several 😯 3. Not like your history, house price crash and several (yes) business forums. You don’t own a property in any country, you live in Tower hamlets. Bit of a loser aren’t you in real life!! You should know about spamming especially with the many unknown links you put on 👿 I will always be on here because I don’t like to see people scammed and deluded by people like you and a few with vested interests.
I also keep a few friends in Spain informed as they don’t “do” internet.
BTW since when is telling the truth spam…I wrote the same in Spain as I do now and I have only been back 2 years. For a spammer I have met (in Spain) two people on this forum. I actually lived there for 7 years I was on this forum. You claim to have lived there but in some distant past! -
@katy wrote:
Several 😯 3. Not like your history, house price crash and several (yes) business forums. You don’t own a property in any country, you live in Tower hamlets. Bit of a loser aren’t you in real life!! You should know about spamming especially with the many unknown links you put on 👿 I will always be on here because I don’t like to see people scammed and deluded by people like you and a few with vested interests.
I also keep a few friends in Spain informed as they don’t “do” internet.
BTW since when is telling the truth spam…I wrote the same in Spain as I do now and I have only been back 2 years. For a spammer I have met (in Spain) two people on this forum. I actually lived there for 7 years I was on this forum. You claim to have lived there but in some distant past!I would give it a miss for tonight, girl. You’re too pissed.
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I love spain and i intend to buy there i have said i enjoy being in the area where i have chosen to buy after visiting other areas angie and katy have never slated anything i have said just the opposite they have been supportive and given advice that when my finances are in order that i should rent first and make sure i can support my self and family.I was ready to buy and take the plunge a few years back and my brother in law told us not to because he had info that all was not well ( he works for DELOITTES)and he was spot on a few months later all hell broke loose.People saying it will go no lower maybe right who really knows.i would rather have people who say what is happening rather than just giving a few positives. Rocker your on the costa blanca go down to the Calpe soup kitchen then report back how great things are.A family friend who has lived there for 30years doing odd jobs (gardening etc) he was very happy just renting and living in a place he loved.Last year he asked his daughter to send him the airfare so he could return as he was starving and having to take charity and was about to be made homeless.Spain is great if you have the funds to support yourself otherwise its a very harsh place with no safety net to speak of.Glad your loaded happy and you haven’t miss laid you rose tinted specs after one too many glasses of vino
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Property investment and I include so called ‘life style’ purchases in a foreign country have been in normal economic times an excellent way to achieve moderate capital growth. Traditionally Spain was a low tax, low cost economy with huge potential growth prospects. The opportunities were endless.
That was because Franco held the country back for his own political reasons and the country offered a climate for northern Europeans fed up with cold and wet summers and winters and crucially Spanish incomes were low.
These were the golden years post Franco which lasted largely unchecked until Spain entered the Euro. Once that happened risk levels for property investment became greater because ordinary working people suddenly had access to large amounts of credit and incomes rose alarmingly. Property went from a low risk moderate growth investment to an insane gold rush lasting over a decade.
What is left is the wreckage. An economy in tatters, burdens of debt lasting decades and a web of corrupt deals where traditional agricultural land was developed and now lies unwanted by anyone. If you travel through southern Spain the evidence is everywhere.
For future lifestyle property purchases the principal risk for them is not the value of the property because now they are relatively cheap. The risk lies in the claw back taking place by government, local government, utility companies, banks and urbanised communities. Costs are escalating at an alarming rate. Taxes and fees are becoming punitive as the state desperately seeks capital for their empty accounts to avoid bankruptcy or bailouts.
The truth is if you invest in property in Spain there is likely to be years of these rising high costs ahead of you which if you sit down and work it all out can never be justified even for a life style choice, and certainly not investment return. Renting will not save you either because rents are depressed and are likely to remain that way for years. Values are going to stay static or drop.
The parties over. When that happens they are always hangers on who believe they can rekindle the flames by persuading you ‘now is the time to buy’. It’s all rubbish designed to fleece you.
If you want to go to live in Spain just rent in a area of your choice, there a zillions of cheap rentals waiting without risk. If you find Spain is not for you how comforting to know you can always just up and go somewhere else with a months notice and without any financial disaster. 🙂
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Logan makes a good point about renting (I don’t mind agreeing with him occasionally, as he has me on ignore so won’t see this!). If you don’t know an area, it’ll give you a good chance to survey the area. We can all argue over whether the absolute floor has been reached or not, but I don’t think I know anyone who believes prices will start to rise soon (well maybe next to where they intend to build EuroVegas, but I doubt anyone reading this wants to move there). There is time to look around and sniff out the best bargains, which is a good place to be, I feel.
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@caveatemptor wrote:
That is very rude to post such comment to katy, Rocker, it’s also not factual to generalise and it’s also nothing to do with green shoots. Resorting to that level of rudeness should be deleted by Mark 😡
Come on Angie/caveatemptor. It’s a shadow of the abuse that Katy has given out on many occasions.
And if anyone should be banned it’s those operating dual accounts. ❗ -
@katy wrote:
There are some good Rioja wines, unfortunately many bad ones too as many wineries have jumped on the bandwagon. Some real plonk out ther called “Rioja”! Ribera del duero is far superior, not as many imitations. Would Rioja wine really get Spain out of the shit anyway 😕
QM2 and other cruiselines have very few Spanish wines on their list…just a bit of trivia
New world wines are the thing now. My brother visited Argentina a couple of months ago. he liked the wine so much that he bought a few cases and sent me one. Really old-fashioned heavy bottles and very full bodied red…it’s good. about £9 per bottle but sure it’s much cheaper in Spain if you can get hold of it.I agree, Rocker sounds pissed most of the time 🙄
Yep, Katy started the offensive insults on this thread.
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@logan wrote:
Property investment and I include so called ‘life style’ purchases in a foreign country have been in normal economic times an excellent way to achieve moderate capital growth. Traditionally Spain was a low tax, low cost economy with huge potential growth prospects. The opportunities were endless.
That was because Franco held the country back for his own political reasons and the country offered a climate for northern Europeans fed up with cold and wet summers and winters and crucially Spanish incomes were low.
These were the golden years post Franco which lasted largely unchecked until Spain entered the Euro. Once that happened risk levels for property investment became greater because ordinary working people suddenly had access to large amounts of credit and incomes rose alarmingly. Property went from a low risk moderate growth investment to an insane gold rush lasting over a decade.
What is left is the wreckage. An economy in tatters, burdens of debt lasting decades and a web of corrupt deals where traditional agricultural land was developed and now lies unwanted by anyone. If you travel through southern Spain the evidence is everywhere.
For future lifestyle property purchases the principal risk for them is not the value of the property because now they are relatively cheap. The risk lies in the claw back taking place by government, local government, utility companies, banks and urbanised communities. Costs are escalating at an alarming rate. Taxes and fees are becoming punitive as the state desperately seeks capital for their empty accounts to avoid bankruptcy or bailouts.
The truth is if you invest in property in Spain there is likely to be years of these rising high costs ahead of you which if you sit down and work it all out can never be justified even for a life style choice, and certainly not investment return. Renting will not save you either because rents are depressed and are likely to remain that way for years. Values are going to stay static or drop.
The parties over. When that happens they are always hangers on who believe they can rekindle the flames by persuading you ‘now is the time to buy’. It’s all rubbish designed to fleece you.
If you want to go to live in Spain just rent in a area of your choice, there a zillions of cheap rentals waiting without risk. If you find Spain is not for you how comforting to know you can always just up and go somewhere else with a months notice and without any financial disaster. 🙂
I agree with your perceptive post, but it’s a bit like bemoaning the end of the empire, the end of colonialism, and could well have been written by a Rhodesian settler when those pesky natives took over.
Or the furious Conservatives in the home counties who have just discovered that they’re going to build a railway across their back gardens.
Socialism is to blame, even when it’s masquerading as the PP party in Spain.
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@mgspain wrote:
Logan: agree with the general sentiment but with one caveat,
We need to watch what the ECB does with regard to printing. If they go full tilt starting with the OMT then properties paid for in cash in good locations at the right price will hold up even if you take into consideration the increased taxes. My personal view is they will hold down interest rates for years.
Your property would not be so much of an investment but an inflation hedge. You would also need enough money to be able to move at any time should your circumstances change and leave the property empty and still be financially OK.Yes I do agree interest rates rates will be pegged for some time provided inflation is under control in the Eurozone. For it to rise significantly growth will have to recover and there are no signs of that yet. However those who initially borrowed on cheap five year fixed deals will soon be discovering the banks can hit them for whatever they choose. The banks have an imperative which over rides their customers ability to pay.
Given the ECB’s statutory mandate of keeping inflation under 2% I doubt property is any longer an inflation hedge. I agree it’s historically had that role but given all the current economic circumstances it’s a poor punt. I maintain property now is only a principal residence, end of story.
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Yep, Katy started the offensive insults on this thread.
You are really obsessed with trying to put me down. You followed me from another forum after I put a link on to SPI. Quite a few posters say much the same as I do but you never respond to them only to myself and Angie. Do you only feel able to bully women because you have never taken on any of the men posters. A few other posters have said that Rocker sounds pissed yet “I started the insults”….Now you call me a spammer! Is that you definition of having a differing opinion.WTF
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Stop trying to play the martyr Katy. You give out the insults and abuse, and are normally the first to derail a thread. Fine for you to play tag-team with logan and angie/caveatemptor but when someone responds in kind you lot cry foul…Btw if you look on the first page of this thread I’m disagreeing with Rocker, and Logan has me on ignore (if only you’d do the same). It’s another lie from you Katy when you claim I only disagree with women posters.
But the easiest solution is for mark to put someone in the cooler for a month when posters revert to personal abuse. Rules would be the same for me as anyone else. -
You insulted me when you said I was a spammer. You stalk me and quote nearly everyone of my posts. Then you said I started the insults with “I agree, Rocker sounds pissed” If I agreed then someone else must have said it…so you are bullying and making unfair accusations. This is a spanish property forum, not the place to follow posters and carry on your vendettas 👿
Off to look at those forum rules……….
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@logan wrote:
Rocker – You misunderstand me, I’m not bemoaning anything simply explaining rather poorly and briefly why Spain’s property market is in the state it is and why readers should leave it alone.
I moved up the coast from Marbella in 1993/4 when the stench of the place became too much for me. At that time the Alicante province was pretty much virgin territory for British expats with investment opportunities galore. You could buy a small house for the price of a car in the UK.
Around the turn of the millennium that all changed. Since then local government and developers started playing catch-up with their Marbellian cousins. It never reached CDS levels, simply because the same amount of money wasn’t there, people on smaller incomes paid smaller bribes.
The local expat newspapers are full of horror stories this weekend because the local councils are finally starting to crack down on illegal extensions, of all things. House owners are being asked to take them down, which is not easy to do if it’s a swimming pool or the second storey of a house.
While having our recuperative coffee this morning, I observed a long term expat asking an expert to help her with her new tax declaration, the expert being a local drunk. I couldn’t help but shudder at the advice she was loudly getting.
These are indeed trying times for expats.
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@katy wrote:
You insulted me when you said I was a spammer. You stalk me and quote nearly everyone of my posts. Then you said I started the insults with “I agree, Rocker sounds pissed” If I agreed then someone else must have said it…so you are bullying and making unfair accusations. This is a spanish property forum, not the place to follow posters and carry on your vendettas 👿
Off to look at those forum rules……….
If you really feel I’m “following” you (despite claiming I’m on umpteen other talkboards, which is closer to the truth) please feel free to put me on Ignore – I’ll be only too pleased to return the favour to avoid all your snide remarks.
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I can’t resist it in a thread about green shoots. I hope this is the beginning of something even bigger to rescue the Spanish economy.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/08/eurovegas-gambling-complex-madrid
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@Rocker wrote:
I can’t resist it in a thread about green shoots. I hope this is the beginning of something even bigger to rescue the Spanish economy.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/08/eurovegas-gambling-complex-madrid
Heh, that’s 3 threads now 🙄
But it is a big project and should mean a lot of construction work in the coming years. We know that Spain went overboard in the previous boom. I doubt there will be such a large boom this time around, so schemes like this that provide work are good for the workers on the street.
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David Casado runs a soup kitchen in Calpe and was happy to receive a 500 Euro donation. On an average day David and his volunteer helpers feed 100+ homeless people. As well as cooking meals for the homeless he also provides shower and toilet facilities.
This was taken from the jalon help site and anyone who knows calpe knows it isn’t a big place and with over 100+ homeless shows how even this very popular holiday destination is struggling.
Recognising in these difficult financial times that locally there are many very needy families the hard working volunteers of the local charity ‘Jalon Valley Help’ have raised money to ensure that no one goes hungry in the Val de Pop
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@Rocker wrote:
I can’t resist it in a thread about green shoots. I hope this is the beginning of something even bigger to rescue the Spanish economy.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/08/eurovegas-gambling-complex-madrid
Yes the US Mafia are coming to town. They will feel at home with the PP and Rajoy in power to make them feel welcome. Green shoots my arse. 👿
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@logan wrote:
@Rocker wrote:
I can’t resist it in a thread about green shoots. I hope this is the beginning of something even bigger to rescue the Spanish economy.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/08/eurovegas-gambling-complex-madrid
Yes the US Mafia are coming to town. They will feel at home with the PP and Rajoy in power to make them feel welcome. Green shoots my arse. 👿
I wouldn’t worry too much about the US Mafia, I’m sure the Russians will be happy to accommodate, especially as they can have residency when they buy a property for 160k 🙂
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I’ve had the good fortune to visit Las Vegas on a couple of occasions, even though I’m not much of a gambler. It’s a mind blowing-place with a horrible undercurrent. Prostitution is legal in Nevada and the Las Vegas telephone directory has hundreds of pages listing legal prostitutes, not really something for the English palate, not mine anyway.
Needless to say, Gamblers Anonymous have a large presence in the city, along with AA.
The strange thing is that even yards from the city’s boundary you are in unforgiving desert, with tumble weed blowing across the sands.
The tax take from the city must be enormous, but I don’t know about the Mafia, they certainly helped build the place.
Like an idiot I visited the wax museum on the strip and had my photograph taken with one of the early Mafia figures, Bugsy Malone, I think. I had the photo enlarged and made to look real by another shop along the strip.
I came unstuck at the changing airport on my way back to Madrid, Philadelphia. A horrible fat man from Homelands security found the enlarged photo and was not impressed. He asked me if I was friends with the mobster and I replied in the positive, knowing that the man had been dead for over a hundred years.
I nearly missed the plane back to Madrid, because the fat security guard thought that Bugsy Malone was still alive.
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@peterhun wrote:
@logan wrote:
Huh 😯
His first name is ‘Offhis’, its very apt.
Blimey, I’ve got the Poles coming after me now. I’m starting to panic, Ukips, the blue rinse brigade, ventriloquist with dummies posting as real people, what on earth is going on?
I’m an ordinary man who happens to love Spain. Is it a crime?
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On the subject of Katy and Angie:
I have really thought long and hard the past couple of days of opening up my login on this forum, from which I have managed to stay any urge to comment for I think 8 or 9 months, but I think I just have to pop back in the once!
I have had my fair share of brickbats yet also the occasional bouquet at the hands of both Katy and Angie on this forum. So I think I am qualified to have an opinion.
In different ways they sure know how to throw and land a punch, but they also do so in insightful, lively and entertaining way.
But the real point is…
They are the forum. They are the only reason I keep visiting it weekly, even now whilst travelling.
Katy may be a little less sympathetic to her old home than she was for many years but the balance always comes out if given a chance, and Angie, well she is sometimes a tad harsh I feel, but I wouldn’t change that for a minute.
Personally, if Katy and Angie were not on the forum, I simple wouldn’t read it. I would never come back. For me they provide an invaluable resource as to how to approach the market in the future, how to put right wrongs, how to understand what people truly feel and see from their perspective. At this they are very best.
Now, I can live without Logan, but that’s just because I find him so unbending, and well too bloody clever by half for me to get into an argument with, but I still appreciate his stuff, and these days I really like Polish Pete because he comes in with some timely stuff and great one liners.
The ladies don’t need me to stick up for them, but some you need to be told to back off really, these two make this forum, I have been following what they have to say for some 7 years and between the lines and the odd rant or funny offshoot, it’s all gold trust me, and if you have got on the wrong side of them, then you have only yourself to blame somewhere back down the line.
Right, that’s off my chest, will keep popping into view, but hopefully with nothing else to add for another year.
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I think you’re wrong, Chris. Any forum or debating society needs a balance, otherwise you can’t have a sensible discussion.
This is a Spanish property forum and all of the contributors have an interest in the topic, otherwise we wouldn’t be here. But it’s human nature to go off on tangents and I don’t see much wrong with it, as long as the inevitable rudeness is kept within acceptable bounds.
I enjoy a healthy discussion and I’ve firmly nailed my colours to the mast. I got off the plane in Malaga in 1988 and stayed. I stayed because I grew to love the place, despite many things I, as a foreigner, disagree with.
So if someone comes along and decries the country I love, I will put them right if I can, even if they come along in stereo.
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Rocker – You seem incapable of understanding the difference between reasoned criticism and simple mud throwing that reflects dislike. There is a vital difference. Reasoned critical comment helps understanding and is far more interesting to read.
Angie and Katy and I hope myself offer constructive views of Spain which conflict with your desire for self promotion of a rose tinted view of expat life in Spain which you constantly share with us. You like your life in Spain, that’s fine, I’m very happy for you. However can the rest of us please get on with debating the future direction of the country and exposing it’s risks and dangers of investment in it for the benefit of others.
That as I understand it is the purpose of the forum. It’s call ‘insight’ not ‘a place in the sun’. 🙂
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I actually like Logan as a poster, as he can sometimes give a good insight into investment policy – but he makes me laugh when he writes like this.
Accusing other posters falsely of being estate agents, or claiming they post “lies and sh***t” because they have a different point of view, is offering a constructive view? The tag-team of K and A/C are many things, but the one thing they are most distant from, is a source of constructive views. 😆 -
Thanks Chris, yes we’ve had differences but we seem able to have compromised on views, and I’m very pleased you agree that our views can help or serve as warnings to others. I’ve also praised Fuengi as an agent who has a very good blog and doesn’t just ‘big things up’, and the pair of you appear to offer more transparency to buyers 😉
As you clearly understand, there are still rogue agents out there who try to mislead others, and we generally post what is after all news that can affect decisions to buy or sell in Spain, such as economic news.
If I was a potential newbie, I would look to both katy and logan for deep insight, also to itsme, mgspain, dartboy, ardun, chopera and a few others for advice based on their experience, and enjoy Peter’s one liners too.
We still have a lot of mileage left in us, and hopefully others who don’t agree will at least debate without insults 😉
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Well said Angie. Mr McCarthy and I have had our moments of conflict but I respect his inside knowledge and moderate views.
I would even go as far as agreeing there are actually around 10% of Spanish agents you can trust to a certain point. I would not recommend any however despite knowing quite a few very well. They simply cost you their commissions.
In the end they sell clients buy and as with any walk of life it’s buyer beware and that’s particularly true in Spain.
I was offered a number of ‘luxury’ apartments this week on a golf course in Andalusia by a bank. €30k each for a multiple cash sale. I cannot even justify that to myself in the current climate. It makes no investment sense if all you have is hope values will rise at some point in the future, sufficiently to cover the expenses, taxes and loss of income elsewhere.
I have a colleague who is buying these up at similar levels. He is doing it to balance his massive losses elsewhere in the hope of a modest value rise. That may work if the market changes and he can sell them quickly but to me it’s a pure gamble. Chasing your loss leads only to more loss.
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” €30k each for a multiple cash sale. I cannot even justify that to myself in the current climate. It makes no investment sense if all you have is hope values will rise at some point in the future, sufficiently to cover the expenses, taxes and loss of income elsewhere.”
I keep trying to find an excuse to buy in Spain, but I can’t. The crazy overbuilding has destroyed the value of property until the excess can be sold and that looks like a decade away. The tax implications of living in Spain scare me and the probably difficulty of of obtaining health care if you are a non resident scare me away from that. The thought of every crook on the planet buying residency in Spain is another downside.
On the upside its sunny.
But I’ll probably end up buying apartments in Poland as the rental income is there (and house prices are tumbling).
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more green shoots
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Another Morgan Stanley quote, seen on Twitter today
“Spain is on its way to become the euro area’s next Germany.” Worst is over, competitiveness rising- Morgan Stanley
That said, I always wonder what is meant by “competitiveness”. If people choose to buy your goods and services then surely you are competitive. Anything else is just froth.
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I think I referred to the Morgan Stanley article before, and if you’re a sensible investor you wouldn’t ignore such advice from such a source.
As far as I can remember, they state that Spain and Switzerland are the best European countries in which to invest in 2013, but they are definitely not recommending any investment in the Spanish property sector just yet, that would be too foolhardy.
How can anyone buy property in Spain at this time? How can anyone buy into a falling market? The evidence really is all around, a tiny part of it on this forum too.
Spain’s stock market is powering ahead, it’s exports are rising, and intelligent analysts recommend investing in the country. They do not suggest you buy a house in Spain at this time, maybe that’s the source of some confusion in this discussion?
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Spain’s IBEX rose on friday after a week of falls. It has a long way to go to catch up what it was before the crash which was around 15,500…it was 8,200 after Fridays gains. Other countries like the UK. USA and Germany etc. have returned to figures seen before the crash. A small rise in exports won’t make up for the drastic falls in domestic spending.
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@peterhun wrote:
” €30k each for a multiple cash sale. I cannot even justify that to myself in the current climate. It makes no investment sense if all you have is hope values will rise at some point in the future, sufficiently to cover the expenses, taxes and loss of income elsewhere.”
I keep trying to find an excuse to buy in Spain, but I can’t. The crazy overbuilding has destroyed the value of property until the excess can be sold and that looks like a decade away. The tax implications of living in Spain scare me and the probably difficulty of of obtaining health care if you are a non resident scare me away from that. The thought of every crook on the planet buying residency in Spain is another downside.
On the upside its sunny.
But I’ll probably end up buying apartments in Poland as the rental income is there (and house prices are tumbling).
Whenever I consider any potential holiday home in Spain I simply work out how much it’s going to cost to buy and how much it will cost to sell, and then I work out how many weeks I’d get for the same amount of money if I rented an equivalent property. Usually it comes out at around 35 weeks, which for us would equate to at least 8 years before we get that money back. It just doesn’t add up.
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I have never though buying a holiday home added up. I often wonder how the idea first began. I think it was the package holiday in the sixties that started the trend for foreign holidays but how did that sound business idea transform into convincing people into buying holidays homes? I have never really understood it because it makes no sense.
I understand less how on earth people thought is was a good idea to mortgage themselves in a foreign currency either. Then take on board all the maintenance costs and taxes. Plus the costs of getting there and to only spend perhaps three weeks of the year trying to enjoy it in the same place year after year after year and being unable to consider anywhere else.
I think the insanity of that was always justified by the illusion the property would rent all year round so all costs would be recovered and a capital gain established. That may have been true to a point before the boom in building when rental properties were fewer and prices rose gradually.
What Spain now has is a massively over supplied rental market of empty coastal properties and consequent downward pressure on rental returns and falling property values. Whilst costs of ownership continue to escalate. When the Euribor rises and cheap fixed mortgage deals come to an end, a second phase of defaults and repossessions will no doubt take place exasperating the situation further.
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It’s all so easily explained, Logan. Ordinary people providing for their families don’t sit down with calculators to work out the financial details of their efforts, or whether they’ll make money from their investments in 20 years time.
They want their families to have fun while they’re growing up. Londoners have always bought caravans at the nearest sea side to their dreary work lives in town. At weekends and during holidays they depart to Clacton and Bognor to have that fun, to give their children a chance to grow.
Once Spain became cheap enough, they exchanged their caravans at the English sea side for holiday homes in Spain. To get some fun out of life.
We only pass this way once.
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That’s a simplistic answer Rocker. Do people really invest in a holiday home without thought to the costs and likely consequences? Fun can be had in life in many differing ways either spontaneously or with planning.
I think buying a holiday home abroad is an emotional decision that has to do with a search for escapism. I see nothing wrong with that but maintain that experience can be had from trying different things and visiting different places without the financial millstone.
I think buying a holiday home is a bit like maxing out a high credit card limit. You are left with a financial burden which restricts what you are able to do in life for years until it’s repaid. No fun in that.
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Some of my fondest possessions in life are holiday snaps of my children playing in the sand at Southend. I had bought a caravan at Shoeburyness, probably the worst investment decision ever. And the best when I look at those photographs.
A distant cousin has asked me for advice after taking out a payday loan to take out a girlfriend with expensive tastes. There was no point in me telling him had done something very stupid, he already knew.
I didn’t know much about those loans and looked it up. Things haven’t changed much over the years, you needed eyes at the back of your head then, and you do now. I can’t see much difference between those payday loans and the Libor rate fixing, and if you really expand the thinking, the crooks operating as estate agents in Marbella all those years ago were not all that different either.
I’ve got my young cousin out of trouble and he’s paying me a lot less that the payday loan sharks. Mind you, he sent me a photograph of the ex girlfriend, I’m glad I didn’t come across her when I was his age. I would have signed on the dotted line too.
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People didn’t used to look at the investment potential when buying. The most they hoped for that the property would increase in value, not booms but a steady cerca 4% and the possibility of enough rentals to run the house and pay for their own holidays. It worked. We had a holiday home for years, got fed up and realised there was a big world out there to see. Rarely visited for years and sold it (at a good profit) We then bought again and kept it until we moved out permanantly. There are pros and cons. As Logan said it’s the same old. When the kids grow up they don’t want to go. If it’s not rented then you could take a few luxury holidays for the cost of the upkeep. The pros is that you can keep lots of stuff there, kids surfboards etc. take a long weekend every month or so which we did. Personally I wouldn’t do it again.
Most of the british who bought holiday homes did it by using equity from their UK houses. Incredibile to think they signed up for those foreign currency mortgages, many of them with harsh terms. -
We bought our current home years ago, not as an investment but rather just as a place to live. We compensated by having an extra flat for the ‘kids’ to visit, and their kids too.
It’s far too big for us now, but the kids still come over every year and I suppose we’ve kept it on just for their visits, otherwise we would have downsized, or perhaps even returned to the UK.
People say that they see more of their kids and other family when they returned to the UK, I’m not sure that would be the case for us, most of them come to visit for the sun and swimming pool, some even ignore us completely.
That main thing that worries me is quite a few of them are now actively planning to buy in Spain, and I’m blue in the face from telling them not to. But I already know what will happen, they’ll do it behind my back.
It has already happened.
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There has been a British obsession with buying property in Spain, holiday and permanent homes for at least 20 years to my knowledge. It lessened just after the crash five years ago, and should have stopped completely, but it hasn’t.
Prices went silly at the turn of the century and assorted crooks came out of the woodwork to fleece the Brits, a lot of them being their own country-folk. And still they came and still they come.
I’ve warned people of the Spanish downturn for at least five years now, and often refer them to the best official figures available, the land registry, but they don’t listen.
The lure of Spain is simply too strong.
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You only have to watch TV, the ITV channels are still full of ‘A Place in the Sun’ programmes. I had the misfortune to be channel hoping the other day when a lady started to cry because the 3 bedroom villa with granny flat and an acre of land (with donkey shed) was the ‘amazing’ price of £195,000. I felt like crying at the fact that she was SO STUPID to be crying thinking that it was so cheap when she could have bought the whole blooming village up that mountain for that price!
People, in the main, are herd animals….we are walking zombies doing our day to day functions and all look forward to the little things in life. A party, a celebration, a holiday…. Those who believe that the grass is greener and believe that living in Spain is the same as their two week holiday will always be the ones who live the dream and actually probably wish that they’d thought about it a bit more….
Add then the estate agents who will sprout all the garb about ‘renting it out at 300 euros per week’… and most people will try to convince themselves that it’s a good idea.
It’s actually very sad that Brits yearn so much to ‘retire’ in another country. That when they’ve finished slogging their guts at work they’ll just want to get some warmth into their bones. They don’t then wonder what they are going to do when they get ill or one of them dies? I guess there is also a high percentage of second marriages who ‘start afresh’ in a new country. Poor them repeating all the mistakes they made the first time round but with all the problems of being in another country at the same time?!
The problem still is that Brits are obsessed by property prices…. and the prices are so low at the moment in Spain that too many are probably thinking that it’s the right time. They will learn…..
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An observation on ‘when one dies’.
I’ve seen it many times and always thought that the survivor would head for home on the first plane back, but, surprisingly most of the ones I’ve seen haven’t. They’ve stayed and joined the many singles clubs on the Costas.
The ones I’ve spoken to explain that their social lives, even alone, are so much better in Spain, as car loads of lunching ladies head off into the hinterland for yet another menu del dia in new surroundings. Apart from singles clubs there are many other clubs to cater for sociable people, from sewing circles to mountain climbers.
You can’t really plan for death wherever you live.
And there’s about the same chance of finding your wife in bed with the plumber in Margate or Marbella.
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Great well thought out post Istme. I do think the twin UK obsessions of the weather and property have contributed to this situation in Spain. The Spanish have milked it for all it was worth and who can blame them for that, certainly not me. Spain has few natural resources except a climate.
However the dishonesty and corruption it produced is shameful but in the end it’s their country and foreigners will always be just that. They offer themselves willingly to exploitation and the temptation becomes too great.
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http://economia.elpais.com/economia/2013/02/12/actualidad/1360659063_388243.html
The trouble is when you read the comments at the bottom laughing about it…. who knows??
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Some change of heart by the “experts”. We’ve already heard that Morgan Stanley are backing Spain as the place to invest in 2013. They now state Spain will be the next Germany http://www.thecorner.eu/2013/02/morgan-stanleys-surprising-forecasts/
And now it seems that even S&P are warming to Spain – article on this very site: (I wonder if they’ve been following my updates, lol)
http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/2013/02/11/ratings-agency-sp-more-optimistic-about-spanish-economy/Spanish exports have increased by 19pc since 2008, which is “particularly impressive for such a big economy.” As a result the current account deficit is positive for the first time in fourteen years, and falling labour costs will soon encourage firms to start hiring again.
Any sort of stabilisation or improvement on the economic front would be good news for the Spanish property market. There is no chance of a property boom anytime soon, but a few years of stable prices and increasing home sales would be most welcome. -
@itsme wrote:
http://economia.elpais.com/economia/2013/02/12/actualidad/1360659063_388243.html
The trouble is when you read the comments at the bottom laughing about it…. who knows??
Haven’t read them all but seems most spaniards think like most of us realists on the forum. As one said…”when is all the optimism going to turn into jobs”!
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Here is a quote from Morgan Stanley’s economic forum.
Europe Economics: Stuck in a No-Growth Trap Our call for a recovery in the remainder of this year looks increasingly stretched. A renewed contraction in EMU GDP now seems more probable. Hence, we are cutting our euro area GDP growth forecast to -0.5% for this year and to no growth on average for next year.There is another hidden dynamic occurring here with the El Pais article. It conflicts with MS’s established global view and is not based on any recognisable economic data. It has the ring of journalistic clap trap. I’m surprised the bank has so far not clarified it publicly.
There again perhaps the bank has the self interested need to encourage the performance of the Spanish economy. 🙄
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Morgan Stanley article ‘Spain to be next Germany’ is the most hilarious thing I’ve seen lately 😆
Written by none other than Joachim Fels. Origin of Joachim- Spanish (plus Hebwrew), origin of Fels- German
So we have a ‘Spanish German’ spouting this mierda de toro, not biased by any chance? 😆 You could not make it up 😛
Sorry fellas, might laugh myself to sleep tonight 😆
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@angie wrote:
Morgan Stanley article ‘Spain to be next Germany’ is the most hilarious thing I’ve seen lately 😆
Written by none other than Joachim Fels. Origin of Joachim- Spanish (plus Hebwrew), origin of Fels- German
So we have a ‘Spanish German’ spouting this mierda de toro, not biased by any chance? 😆 You could not make it up 😛
Sorry fellas, might laugh myself to sleep tonight 😆
Never mind the veracity of the article, but you object to it being written by a Spanish German Jew?
You really are a sad case, mala leche taken to the absolute extreme. So you hate the Spanish, Germans and the Jews?
And you post under several identities in your Jekyll and Hide mode?
In real life you would be sectioned on the spot.
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You sad man Rocker, it’s nothing to do with race or creed other than his article about Spain becoming a new Germany written by a man whose origins are of Spanish German extraction, I looked it up and there was a mention of his Christian name as many are, also with some Hebrew beginnings. It’s so funny that you can’t even see it, I’m sure most can, imagine if an article written by an economist said Scotland was going to be the new power house China, and was written by a Jock Wu, what don’t you understand? 😆
You beggar belief with your vitriol, you are just a wind up merchant, and you repeat yourself with your same old vitriol, had I attacked you?
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An interesting article from the New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/13/business/global/britains-risk-filled-choice.html?ref=business&_r=0
Throughout the article, the author mentions Spain as the country most likely to export its way out of recession.
The author is Landon Thomas Jr. I’ve never heard of him and I’m not going to analyse his name to guess at this roots, they don’t matter, not in my world.
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It had to happen:
Even the mighty US, on its own, can’t compete with China, Linked with Europe it might have a chance. It’s an uncomfortable truth for individual European countries, especially the UK with its Conservative Eurosceptics, but even the dimmest should be able to do the sums.
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On my evening stroll in Barcelona last night it was clear that the Chinese have arrived. I saw an real estate agency with big, bold Chinese letters on their sign. A block away, what was once a successful store for children clothes, toys etc. now is a Chinese Bank, specializing in businesses. An entire block of a pretty good neighborhood was filled with Chinese stores. I also passed by a group of really drunk, apparently homeless men, arguing on a park bench. They were speaking Russian.
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Hard to believe in the current climate but Seat car sales, helped by strong export growth, are up 19% in January! Anyone still doubting green shoots???
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My wife had a Seat Ibiza some years ago, a basic one with a small engine. We used it once to pick up two relatives from Alicante airport who arrived with heavy suitcases.
When we reached the long and steep motorway heading north, the car started to struggle and by the time we got to the top I was driving in second gear.
But it was a fun car to drive in town. It was a white one and sometimes hard to find after parking up, the streets seemed to be full of identical cars, all with identical dents.
I love watching Spanish people, especially the women, get out of tight parking spaces. They don’t bother using the mirrors and manoeuvre backwards and forwards, only stopping when they fit another car.
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New world wines are the thing now. My brother visited Argentina a couple of months ago. he liked the wine so much that he bought a few cases and sent me one. Really old-fashioned heavy bottles and very full bodied red…it’s good. about £9 per bottle but sure it’s much cheaper in Spain if you can get hold of it.
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