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As a non Spaniard and a passionate lover of the Country, along with many on this forum & other forum on Spain.
Do we cry for Spain or do we rejoice that some positive will come out of all the current situation which would be primaraly good & positive for the Country & its people, as a large majority of them are good, kind, welcoming,generous, warm & fun loving ?
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I cry for the Spain my half Spanish children might inherit if things don’t improve. I cry for my husband who’s stuck with a ball and chain mortgage and for my sister in law who is at Uni but will have to probably leave the country to find work.
BUT, Spain does have sun and a friendly, outdoors lifestyle which encourages tourism. I think that they should stick to hotels rather than buying a ‘holiday home investment’ but in the future, if the rubbish is sorted out then I guess Spain will be ok again.
We are in Ireland but my husband wants to retire in his homeland. I hope it’s sorted out by then (in 30 something years……)
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Itsme how is Ireland doing at the moment? I was in Dublin visiting some friends “Actually some I got to know in Spain” back in september. Almost no rain which amazed me =). Spent most of my time in Dublin and Galway. Liked it a lot and especially hurling. My friends are quite lucky since they are in the guard but they said lots of their friends had it rough at the moment.
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I’m loving Ireland and as I said in another post, the lower end properties seem to be selling here now. Maybe because we live in a nice area abiet a rural one? Lots of youngsters though are still boarding planes for Oz, NZ and Canada etc. but things on a whole seem quite positive (maybe to us compared to Spain)? Our children are happy here in a little country school with lots of outdoor playing on grass…. It’s nice and has been very sunny recently.
I know that the problems in Spain aren’t just real estate…. it’s mainly the gross corruption which still continues…
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Gross corruption, ineffeciency, lack of respect for others & their belogning, justice, civil service, disrespect for authority, dogma, incompetancy, lack of maturity. dishonesty …….. ( Ofcourse these issues are in other Countries as well but they have not & will not be allowed to damage their socities. Here I am not talking about a south American Country. Spain is in Europe and a member of EU .
The Irish dont have these issues. They like their drink and gets carried away at times but they are not the only ones.
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I feel sorry for young Spanish people who have studied and worked hard (and yes there are quite a few of them) only to find their immediate future has been taken from them by corrupt politicians, corrupt banks, and brain dead unions. But that’s about it. Anybody over 50 in Spain has had it good and most are already retired on a nice pension, paid for with other people’s money (mainly their children’s).
Will any positives come out of this situation? Well for the euro to hold together there will have to be some kind of European banking union, along with some kind of fiscal union. Power would be taken from corrupt Spanish politicians and placed in the hands of corrupt EU politicians. I’m not sure what difference it would make really. Some of the reforms the goverment is making are actually needed, and they wouldn’t be making them if it wasn’t for the euro – the Spanish state is way too big and needs to be cut back, and employment law reform is also welcome. The only problem is that the public sector cuts need to be offset by increased private sector spending, and there needs to be a change in mindset away from government paternalisim and towards individual independence/responsibility. But I’m afraid I can’t see that happening any time soon.
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” But I’m afraid I can’t see that happening any time soon “
Here lies in the problem. Tinkering around labour laws is not going to solve a cronic issue. A private sector investor will need their head examaning no amount of sweetners would justfy a private investor. When they can take their capital, industrial sector, technical know how to anywhere in the world.
Besides. the Spanish society does not like wealth creation. They would like to have the wealth but would frown upon others when they trying to create. THe are still considered either vulgar, up start or a blood sucking capitalist. Living in Madrid you will know how the Catalans & Basque are viewed.
Would you be knowing what are the changes in the employment laws ??? I get information that is patchy and not enohgh to form an opnion.
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Here are the changes to Spain’s labour laws:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/11/business/global/spain-approves-changes-to-labor-policy.html?_r=0
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The new rules will cut severance payments to 33 days per year of employment from 45 days. Severance packages will also be capped at a maximum of 24 months, half the previous limit. The changes are also designed to discourage companies from relying on temporary workers, forcing employers to switch such staff to permanent contracts after two years, rather than three years at present. The new rules also reduce severance payments for civil servants.The legislation encourages small enterprises, in particular, to hire young employees by allowing companies with a maximum of 50 workers to claim a corporate tax break of €3,000 for each new hire under the age of 30. Should the new hire have been previously jobless, he or she will still also be able to collect 25 percent of previous unemployment benefits for a limited time, while 50 percent will go to the employer.
The new rules also facilitate layoffs for companies in financial trouble, allowing employers who can show three consecutive quarters of losses to pay only 20 days of severance per year of employment.
Companies will also be able to drop out more easily from collective bargaining agreements and strike their own deals with their staff.
…Personally I don’t think they go far enough, but at least the first difficult step has been taken and the taboo has been broken.
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I do feel for all those that are suffering at the moment. And I agree that if Spain had not been part of the euro, Spain could be in a better position now via devaluations, etc…
But I think being part of the euro will actually be to Spains benefit. By not being able to simply devalue, we now have to actually make the relevant reforms to fix the problems that Spain has had to deal with since democracy. Now we are seeing (slowly but surely) labour laws changing, the cost of the bureaucracy is lowering, etc…
Even the mentality of people is changing. People are working harder, service is improving, prices are lowering, etc…
If these changes continue and the political system is reformed (at least part of it) I honestly believe Spain could be one of the best places in Europe to live and work. I feel there is so much potential for this country to grow, it just needs to be on the right path.
In areas like Andalucia, there needs to be a more positive view of entrepeneurs, supported through a raft of measures. More diversification away from seasonal tourism, (IT industries, transport, agri-industry, etc…).
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@Chopera wrote:
Will any positives come out of this situation? Well for the euro to hold together there will have to be some kind of European banking union, along with some kind of fiscal union. Power would be taken from corrupt Spanish politicians and placed in the hands of corrupt EU politicians. I’m not sure what difference it would make really. Some of the reforms the goverment is making are actually needed, and they wouldn’t be making them if it wasn’t for the euro – the Spanish state is way too big and needs to be cut back, and employment law reform is also welcome. The only problem is that the public sector cuts need to be offset by increased private sector spending, and there needs to be a change in mindset away from government paternalisim and towards individual independence/responsibility.
^this^
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I agree that the Spanish are sceptical about people being wealthy – mainly because the only way to become wealthy in Spain has been through corruption. The concept of someone developing an idea, taking a risk, potentially being rewarded for it, and then maybe spreading that reward around by employing people and growing a company is very alien to many Spanish people. But then again the same could probably have been said of the UK pre-Thatcher. If people are given a chance to take control and look for their own rewards in life, then maybe they won’t be so jealous of others who become successful.
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@Chopera:. I agree they do not go far enough, these changes should have been in the 80’s and by now the labour market would have been lean & mean. How does one calculate Loss for three quarter considering most compnies in Spain do not carry out an Audit ( Correct if I am wrong ) So If I need to turn a loss I can manupilate stock, not spread payment for raw material etc and pay them in one or two quarters, pay myself bonus or staff who are family members. The most basic about any trasaction is ” good faith” and I dont mean the spritual faith. Sadly this does not exist in Spain.
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@Fuengi: Devaluation is a easy & lazy solution and in time the Country pays for it.
” But I think being part of the euro will actually be to Spains benefit.
Yes, as one can see the control & changes are being forced onto them by outsiders.
” By not being able to simply devalue, we now have to actually make the relevant reforms to fix the problems that Spain has had to deal with since democracy. Now we are seeing (slowly but surely) labour laws changing, the cost of the bureaucracy is lowering, etc.”
The labour laws are to little & too late. The cost of bureaucracy being lowered. How ??? If you talk about what the citizens have to pay than I do not think that they are paying less. I stand correct if I am incorrect. However if you mean the intangible cost. than I am afraid any bureaucracy cost, time money, slows economic activity, demotivates citizens.
” People are working harder, service is improving, prices are lowering, etc…”
People do not have to work hard they have to work smart and in an effecient manner. A person not replying to email, not returning telephone calls, not turning up on time, coming up unprepared probebly considers he/she is working hard !!! How does one measures hard work.
“If these changes continue and the political system is reformed (at least part of it) I honestly believe Spain could be one of the best places in Europe to live and work. I feel there is so much potential for this country to grow, it just needs to be on the right path “.
Agree, 100% that is why it is soul destroying that there is so much potencial that is untapped. WE from outside can see this hence should be cry for Spain as outsiders.
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The view of an expat who has come to Spain for a better quality of life?
It’s a big topic, some of which has already been well addressed. It’s a young country as a functioning democracy, the youngest in Europe, the youngest I can think of. That in itself explains quite a few of the problems, change comes too slowly, people are afraid of it.
It is heartbreaking to watch the current exodus of highly qualified young people who are unable to find work in their own country. It is sad to see businesses which are unable to function without breaking the employment laws which themselves should have gone out with the ark.
It’s horrifying to watch a proud people who have striven hard to secure their own home suddenly finding themselves in homes worth around 40% less over the past five years for reasons totally beyond their control. Those people have trusted their banks and have been badly let down by them.
And the politicians? You can’t even say the word without instantly thinking of corruption.
But all those things are changing for the better, membership of the EU will help take the country forward, and to get back to the quality of life?
Apart from asking the Spanish people themselves, you’ve got a million expats to ask. I know what the overwhelming majority will tell you.
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@Rocker; Well there are other Countries whose democry are much younger, Slovenia, Romania,Poland comes to mind. I however get your drift.
Not a week passes without me receiving an email or contact from my friends asking me for information for colleges, jobs, accomodation etc. When the change comes there would have been a wasted generation. This generation will become parents not in too distant future. What kind of role model they will be to their children ? If they spent the whole day infront of the tv or playing back gammon with people in a similar situation.
My, Portero has two adult children, he is spending money on their education while himself not earning very much as a Portero. What is he spending the money on ??? should he not just spend his money on fiesta, feria etc ??? .
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I had forgotten about those other recent democracies in Europe. You could dismiss Slovenia and Rumania as mere minnows compared to Spain, but not Poland.
Poland is big and important, a simple view would be that it’s where capitalism met communism and capitalism won, but it goes way beyond that. For one thing the big bear to the east is no longer communist, is it?
I remember when George W Bush wanted to flood Poland with rocket sites, allegedly to protect Europe against attacks from Iran, of all places, but the Russians soon provided him with a geography lesson and prevented a catastrophic war.
Poland and Spain are two big players within Europe, at the opposite ends of it. They could learn a lot from each other, but talking about Spain, I wish it would adopt the work ethic of Poland – from what little I know, Polish people work twice as hard and don’t stop for siestas every day.
If Polish plumbers had come to Spain instead of the UK, there wouldn’t be a Spanish plumber left, and my toilet wouldn’t still be making frightening rumbling noises.
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@shakeel wrote:
@Fuengi: Devaluation is a easy & lazy solution and in time the Country pays for it.
” But I think being part of the euro will actually be to Spains benefit.
Yes, as one can see the control & changes are being forced onto them by outsiders.
I don’t personally think its outsiders that are forcing these changes. Look how many wished for the devaluation route. I see the PP finally being able to implement the changes that they have wanted to make since early in Aznars premiership. At least on the economic front…
@shakeel wrote:
The labour laws are to little & too late. The cost of bureaucracy being lowered. How ??? If you talk about what the citizens have to pay than I do not think that they are paying less. I stand correct if I am incorrect. However if you mean the intangible cost. than I am afraid any bureaucracy cost, time money, slows economic activity, demotivates citizens.
Agreed about being too little too late. But the PP have been in power for just over a year. If Zapatero had actually done something in his second term, the situation might be better now.
@shakeel wrote:
People do not have to work hard they have to work smart and in an effecient manner. A person not replying to email, not returning telephone calls, not turning up on time, coming up unprepared probebly considers he/she is working hard !!! How does one measures hard work.
Doing all of this is ‘working hard’. I find that too many people here equate long hours with ‘hard work’. Now I am seeing more efficiency and effective use of work.
@shakeel wrote:
Agree, 100% that is why it is soul destroying that there is so much potential that is untapped. WE from outside can see this hence should be cry for Spain as outsiders.
Oh I tell anyone that will listen: “look at everything that has been achieved in Spain without the tough changes that many countries in Europe had to make in the 80/90s. Whereas these countries are already ‘lean’ Spain still has this room to change and grow in the future”.
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@rocker:
” Poland is big and important “
Agree, The only country whose economy grew whilst everyone elses was flat lining or in negative. The Polish people have very good working practise & attitude. I recall before they joined the EU, the Polish Zlote for almost £1- 9, today it hovers around £1=5, despite of various reduction in interest rates.“Poland and Spain are two big players within Europe, at the opposite ends of it”
Could not agree more.
“I wish it would adopt the work ethic of Poland – from what little I know, Polish people work twice as hard and don’t stop for siestas every day “
This will never happen. In UK I look for Polish workers. They are punctual, highly educated, respectful, apply themselves, cost effective, do not harass any ladies walking past them, trousers do not expose their bum line. To be crictical only one issue they struggle to turn up on Mondays after a session of Vodka with their mates on a Sundays. I dont have an issue with that, they are away from friends/families, take a loy of abuse & raceism ( unjust in my book ) so allowed tolet their hair down once a while.
“If Polish plumbers had come to Spain instead of the UK, there wouldn’t be a Spanish plumber left “
Agree.
” and my toilet wouldn’t still be making frightening rumbling noises “
Its not your toilet it is the Paella Mariscos.
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