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Maybe I am naive I find it hard to believe that so many solicitors are corrupt. Does anyone have any idea how the system is working.
How do the Developers incentivise the Solicitors to cross the line into criminal territory, ie how much is in it for a solicitor not to obtain a Bank Guarantee, delay cancelling a contract and then advise a purchaser not to close on the completion day even though the LFO was granted, thus leaving him with not legal grounds and eyeing up losses of 100K.
Do they just carve up the deposits? Has anyone first hand experience of how it all works.
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I may be being generous here but I think many Lawers were not corrupt, just naive (not realising how crooked the developers were) or incompetent. The rise of the amount of Lawyers in the boom years was unbelievable, can’t imagine where they all came from…straight out of law school I think. Not that the Colegio will ever take responsibility of course.
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As much as I am critical of Spanish solicitors and mostly the ones that operate in and around Marbella I would say it’s not that they are all dishonest but mostly just plain greedy and of course many firms expanded rapidly during the boom years and standards dropped.
The solicitors you are probably talking about are those that have or have had very cosy relationships with estate agents and developers and of course as the saying goes they weren’t going to bite the hand that feeds them.
Many of these solicitors are certainly guilty of charging excessive fees and then doing extremely shoddy work and offering no after sales service or willing to stick by the client when the going got tough.
I have said many times the Spanish Law Societies or Colegios of which there are many need to bring their many failing members to task and quickly.
Spanish solicitors should also carry proper professional indemnity insurance similar to that which UK solicitors have to carry. Bear in mind UK solicitors must carry GBP2m PI from a list of approved insurers and if they get a bad claims history then they can’t get insurance after which, for exhoribant fees, they can shelter for 2 years in an assigned risk pool and then they must close down if they can’t get back into the market. This year in the UK many small practioners were forced to close because they could not get affordable PI insurance.
UK clients should use UK dual qualified solicitors and then they could easily bring complaints and get results. The Law Society of Ireland is not so well regulated but after what happened this year with a couple of rogue solicitors they should improve their game.
But despite all the bad press UK/Irish buyers (the few that there are!) are still content to be taken by the estate agents hand to their recommended lawyer. So in some cases buyers must accept some of the blame for being naïve and believing all that glistened was gold.
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“Spanish solicitors should also carry proper professional indemnity insurance similar to that which UK solicitors have to carry”
I agree, what makes you think the Insurance company will pay. If you speak to Spaniards they will confirm that they don’t bother with Insurance as they don’t pay up.
On the Insurance front, a friend of mine reversed into me on the 13th of December 08. She had accepted her fault we sat & processed the claim over a glass of Tinto. This this date we cant get the problem sorted out as the friend Insurance cant decide whether my car was hit in the front or the back. Several calls, e.mails, faxes have gone round. What a waste of human energy.
Spain, has a very serious problem of credibility in all aspects/sectors.
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katy
i think you are being generous.
our first lawyer (UK) went along with the lie of the UK agent, and didn’t stop our money getting to the developer before a building license was issued. (it never was) They then lied to us about a Bank Guarantee not being available, and the fact the developer had not started work on the site. Our first Spanish lawyer also went along with this lie. It was only when we smelt a rat, refused to complete, and found our current lawyer, that we had our suspicion confirmed, that we had been stitched up by all four parties. (agent,two lawyers and developer)
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Katy
You posted
I may be being generous here but I think many Lawers were not corrupt, just naive (not realising how crooked the developers were) or incompetent. The rise of the amount of Lawyers in the boom years was unbelievable, can’t imagine where they all came from…straight out of law school I think. Not that the Colegio will ever take responsibility of course.Agree and has always been a point that I have tried to make.
As you say what should have been in place is an authority that they should have been made accountable too.
There wasnt and the corrupt ones new it the naive were caught up and for many either they went along or they did not do any business.
Not right . But thats the reality.Just Frank 8)
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I believe the heart of the problem, as with so many things in Spain, is a lack of regulation and enforcement of those regulations. I don’t the the Spanish authorities have any concept of the meaning of individual rights and therefore, unlike most northern European states, do not legislate for it. As a result individuals have very little consumer protection when they are exploited by powerful and corrupt private and public organisations
Richard
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No the heart of the problem is the expectation by British people that Spanish professionals have the same level of morality and ethics as the UK. They do not. The reasons are many but Spain is Spain. In other words its different. Just as different as any other nation state. In other words outside your comfort zone of the UK risk begins when you step off the plane and greet the first smiling face that’s after your dosh.
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@shakeel wrote:
rt21: You indeed correct in your conclusions. Those rights are enshrined in the EU legislation’s/charters etc.
And not worth a plugged nickel and dime….
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@logan wrote:
…the heart of the problem is the expectation by British people that Spanish professionals have the same level of morality and ethics as the UK. They do not.
rt21 – you forgot that one. 😉
Just another reason for Spain to hang its head in shame.Logan – any more contributions to add to the list?
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logan said
No the heart of the problem is the expectation by British people that Spanish professionals have the same level of morality and ethics as the UK. They do not.
……sadly that does seem to be the case for many of them, (unfair to say all though) Many of us have fallen foul of this. Some would call it naive, but i think it’s a belief in anyone worth their salt, and in a position of trust knowing the difference between right and wrong. As rt21 mentioned, at the heart of this is lack of regulation. If you can get away with being a liar or a cheat, then the bad guys are bound to be drawn in to that proffesion.
If Spain wants to improve it’s ever worsening reputation, then that’s something that’s got to change. -
I was in the company of a couple of lawyers last Friday evening.
I asked them how they and their collegues were managing to earn a living since there is hardly any property conveyancing to be done. They both said there is plenty of commercial work, I took this to be their UK clients from the previous years now suing their builders and crooked agents, they agreed it pretty well was.
What struck me as startling was their view of the future. I asked if there would be many changes to the Spanish laws concerning illegal property sales and developing, and would the town halls be more tightly controlled? They both looked at me bemused and said “what is the problem”?
I brought the usual things to mind, such as, bank guarantess being worthless, local town hall/mayor/planning officer corruption etc. but, still a bemused look!!!
I mentioned shoddy lawyers and corrupt judicial rulings and still they were in denial!!!
It seems, should the market in Spain pick up, there will be little change in the attitude of those who are most guilty.
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@katy wrote:
Hmmm. My neighbour is a Marbella Lawyer and he seems busy (and rich!)
I think they have it made katy.
First, they ensure they do a shoddy job which incurres big losses for their clients.
Then, they chuckle to each other as their clients all swap lawyers and use another lawyer to put the first lawyers work right.
They can’t lose can they? double fees!!!
What other profession can benefit in such a way??
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Goodstich44
You posted.If Spain wants to improve it’s ever worsening reputation, then that’s something that’s got to change.
As was pointed out by an excellent post last week
Spain are way way behind with regards to laws and many other issues due to its history.
What you and some are expecting will take many many years if ever.
Its their Country and yes many of us got caught which is wrong and in particular what was wrong its the Brits that caught us in the main.
It starts at home and surely its some that need to change in this Country before we have the arrogance to tell someone to change their laws.
What must be considered is that like many of us.
1 We have laws in our Country which are changing to accommodate immigrants and many laws that we all don’t agree with.
Many of us don’t like these laws and we fight against them.
Perhaps if were not careful the Spanish just may start to fight change as well if push comes to shove.
2 Spain is Spain. British are British. To me there are scum in both. Corruption/bent solicitors/bent M.Ps. and so on.
3 Spain is their Country and we should be mindful that to push through changes in the end will be down to them.
4 If forced by outside influences they will break the laws anyway as that’s what they are good at.
5 Perhaps I am wrong but I feel that Spain itself will realise changes have to be made and then is when changes will happen and not before.Of course it wrong that we have been caught but who are we in reality to demand change in someone’s else’s Country.
The Priors case is wrong, that’s their law
Stoning people in some Countries is wrong in our eyes but that’s their laws and on it goes.Of course we continue to fight for what is rightfully ours and cover every angle we can either separately or collectively push for change and surely calling them a lot of scum,cheats.liars and scumbags every other posting is perhaps counter productive.
Kind Regards
Just Frank 8)
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Just Frank
no Frank, in my opinion if they are liars or cheats and scum bags, then so be it. Just because crap laws and lack of regulation allows them to get away with it, doesn’t change what they are, what ever country they are from, and what ever country they are operating in. Let’s call a spade a spade, there are of course very good agents and lawyers in Spain, and of course we should recognise that also.
Yes, the Priors case is wrong, and whoever is responsible needs a good kick up the ar*e for making that decision. Just because ‘that’s the law’ doesn’t mean we should accept it. Bad laws need changing, and if those who are in a position to do so won’t, then it’s down to protests, rally’s, demo’s. Whatever it takes!
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@goodstich44 wrote:
Yes, the Priors case is wrong, and whoever is responsible needs a good kick up the ar*e for making that decision. Just because ‘that’s the law’ doesn’t mean we should accept it. Bad laws need changing, and if those who are in a position to do so won’t, then it’s down to protests, rally’s, demo’s. Whatever it takes!
Sorry Goodstitch, I do not fully understand you.
I know that you have been robbed and lost money in Spain. But you do not have now any property connection with Spain. If you do not like their laws, why do you still think of purchasing in Spain?
France for example offers peace of mind as they have the notaires who check everything.
Italy also presents a safe purchase. Then there is Austria, South Cyprus or Switzerland where everything is crystal clear. -
flosmichael
you’re right, i don’t think i would buy in Spain if the current very poor laws on regulation and justice that have done so much damage to Spain are not changed in favour of commom sense laws and regulation that the country can be proud of. Just seems such a shame if it has to be that way, when it doesn’t in the other countries you mention. I love the country with that exception.
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Goodstich44
100% correct were are entitled to our opinions.
Some are as you say perhaps and should be a target and not the whole picture which appears to be portrayed.
The Priors case is bad. That still does not give anyone a right to demand change in someones elses country.
Many Brits suffer from unfair rules in other countries so what gives us the right to go around the world changing them.
Spain need and may change the rules given time and thats going to be lots of it.
ITS THEIR LAWS NOT OURSI my opinion there is a clear balance that needs to be struck where pushing for change would have a benficial effect against demanding it.
A fight is often defended as a matter of principle.
Lets face it .No one is going to force you to change even if you may underneath it all know they may be right.
You will defend.thats human nature.
If someone reasoned with you then perhaps you may approach it different. MMmmm ( Perhaps not in your case but most would)
Spain is so far behind that they need to be pushed and perhaps shown the ways to move into what we consider a more civilised society where most are able show slightly better values.
A fight is the last thing anyone wants a momentum for change is the way forward .
Yeh. But thats my opinion. If someone kept calling me a scumbag.cheat,low life,liar etc or associated me with such I would dig in.
If someone did show me to be wrong I would change ?No one has yet though 😆
Franks Rules.
Sit down and talk through issues in a polite and detailed manner
Cards on the table and all that.
Then we agree that Frank was right all along. 😆EX AGENT
Just Frank 8)
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Frank, I don’t agree. The Priors are resident here. As such they are entitled to vote in Local elections. They are also entitled to go to the Court of Human rights. Even if not resident anyone has the right to campaign and fight for their rights if they have been cheated.
It wasn’t the Law that enabled people to be cheated, rather the lack of implementing what existed. Just one example…the Spanish Law states that it is illegal for a purchaser of new property not be given a bank guarantee!
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Peter Goods description of his meeting with Spanish lawyers is entirely an accurate vision and insight to the prevailing attitude of property professionals in Spain.
Problem? What problem?
The only problem from their perspective is when the cash cow runs dry. That will only happen when foreigners stop sleepwalking towards the twin evils of cheap property in the sun and a reality of shady crooks lurking behind every front door.
I write as a former property professional in Spain during one of the many boom periods. I am still astonished how so many people left their brains on the plane and were in such a hurry to hand over their money.
Unscrupulous types of which there were/are so many simply smelt pay dirt. Followed the money and had no conscious. Why should they? Spain is their country and foreigners really should not expect to be given quarter if they fail to do any research beforehand. That’s my point really. Do research, check people out, spend time in the country and trust no one. If that’s beyond you then don’t buy in Spain.
The old adage of ‘never give a sucker an even break’ is alive and well in most parts of the world. Spain is no exception. Crooks only follow the money. -
Hi Katy
Priors are residence of Spain amongst thousands of other ex pats like your good self.
Change is needed and there is no doubt about that to highlight the dreadful situation that even I am left with.
However I support every possible movement to bring about change I just happen to believe that if we in the U.K demand charge and go looking for a fight in another country we may alienate many that would welcome our whole hearted support.Again this is only my opinion as it were my country and if I were less informed I may say !What the hell are this lot doing, sort your own problems before trying to change ours.
In other words mind yer own frigging business ,keep you nose out of it and its us that decide changes in the laws of our country .Any country for that matter.
No one forced the Priors to move to Spain and that law sucks and Spain must address these issues and the corruption within sectors .
I feel dreadfully for them however I feel the same for some in the U.K that have been wronged.
We have the right to support actions in any way /yes fight can but this is their/your adopted country so terms like fight, demand in my opinion can have a negative effect .
Words like scumbag,liars cheats etc may apply to a number and is of course a legitimate statement however not as a continued source of reference as the honest ones feel that perhaps they are being labelled with the same vile brush.
Petitions/friendly marches and media exposer to manipulate change.YEP 😀
Fight ?Only when those like me are after our bloody money.
As much as I wish I have not right to enforce change.
Yep its a fine line alright I will agree with that.
Regards to you.Just Frank 8)
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Blimey Logan 😯
You posted
I write as a former property professional in Spain during one of the many boom periods. I am still astonished how so many people left their brains on the plane and were in such a hurry to hand over their money.You get away with this posting and I am Richard Branson.
Ex Agent saying that the Brits had no brains and fell over themselves to hand money over.
Yippeeee. A new target 😆Just Frank 8)
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British Agents in Spain…I agree, why when a Spanish couple want to sell their cortijo for say, 50,000 euros does it appear with a Brit agent for double that… and then the Spanish couple receive their 50,000. Even now agents still want nearly 7,000 euros if they sell our apartment !! what would be so wrong with them receiving 1000 euros, the average monthly wage??
I had experience whilst working for a furniture shop of the Parador Properties agents, what a joke. These naive British couples being blindly led by people who had no idea of what they were talking about, only of the fact that if they sold a property they would receive their commission and be able to pay their own bills that month. How many were pushed into that fantastic idea of the Almanzora Country Club…? EVERYONE in the town knew that it had never received a building permit but there were the Parador and Medsea agents never letting their couples out of their sights so that they could never hear the true. How do those people now sleep at night?
Talking about corruption, it is not only the Brits who get caught out. Our bank manager wrote cheques out to himself and then did a runner. We will never see that money as the bank have denied all knowledge of it….and it would cost a fortune to take them to court. It all leaves a very sour taste in your mouth when you trust someone in a position such as a bank manager or lawyer and they turn out to be just greedy backstabbers.
Spain does need to sort itself out. I get fed up with it all being ‘kept in the family’ and no one can do anything for themselves, it always has to be via ‘cousin or godfather so and so….’ They need to stop building and blindly believing that the Brits will be endlessly buying over-priced, bad quality properties ‘just because it’s Spain’ as that traditional Spain doesn’t exist anymore! It is not a picture postcard of little old ladies in their black clothes and flamenco, the reality now are towns full of African, Ecudorian, Morocan immigrants waiting to get into mini buses to take them out to the fields.
I think it will get better, I hope so, but they need time to suss it out for themselves….and a lack of buyers will do that rather quickly I suppose.
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@katy wrote:
I would not expect anything different from people such as Logan. Anyone with any ethics or moral code would not have been/or be involved in the Spanish estate agency business.Bad enough that they earned a fast few bucks but to then try to shift the blame onto the punters 😈
I am reluctant to respond to insults such as these however I can’t let this pass without comment.
Firstly I was not an agent. I was involved in development and the administration of such. I invested my own capital taking risks above the level of normal safer investment. As such I expected a greater return in relation to that risk.
I at no time compromised my personal ethics or moral code. I saw others doing that on a daily basis and refused to be involved often at a financial costs which I was very happy to pay.
I no longer live in Spain but keep an eye on the market with a view to investing again when the time is right. However that in my opinion is a long way off.
It is possible to be in business and keep your own personal ethics code in tact. In most developed EU countries that is an accepted truth.. However as I keep repeating Spain is another country. -
Logan, with respect, your posts are pretty insulting to the people here who have been and still are, the victims of the widespread scale of corruption in Spain.
You wrote:I write as a former property professional in Spain during one of the many boom periods. I am still astonished how so many people left their brains on the plane and were in such a hurry to hand over their money
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When you post such remarks, expect a backlash.
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Likewise with Logan
What I saw and what I did are very different issues.
This has been well covered in my previous postings and 98% of the regular posters realise that like the corrupt solicitors /developers/councils/agents not all are tarnished with that discusting tag and do take great offence when accused of such.
Because we may have witnessed this vile situation where punters fell over themselves rather like a return to the gold rush to make money and low life that would willingly stitch them up means nothing.Just Frank 8)
I dont intend to defend my actions further.
Logan
The offer of the Hat is still there 😆 -
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I don’t understand all the talk on this thread about people supposedly wanting to ‘change’ the laws in Spain.
There are laws/regulations already currently in place to protect the buyer. E.g. Bank Guarantees must be issued by law for when things go wrong, every build should have a valid building licence before works start etc. (how the heck do they get away with that one? In the UK the inspectors would be on them like a ton of bricks before the foundations even got started). But in many cases this just does not happen despite being law that it should.
And as in the Prior’s case, if a building licence is issued by a Governmental body then it should not be able to be revoked at a later date by a different Gov. body. The purchaser should not be the ones punished for this but the ones who issued it in the first place. If you can’t trust a licence with an official stamp on, what can you trust?
The problem is the laws and regulations currently in place in Spain are ignored, twisted/revoked to suit and/or simply not implemented.
There is only one law that I and thousands others would like to see actually changed and that is the Land Grab. And actually the ‘spirit’ of this law is not so bad – to provide lower-cost housing to those who need it.
The problem lies with those who corruptly (here we go again) totally abuse and twist the law for their own purposes and grab land to build expensive housing to make huge profits. As ever, profit overrides everything including the law and this particular law needs tightening up.It’s exactly as rt21 said, one of Spain’s problems is simply lack of regulation and no effective recourse for when things go wrong and their own laws have been abused.
Spain has good laws but it is as if they don’t exist. -
charlie
yes i stand corrected on that point. I guess what i mean when i say laws should be changed is really the implementation of those laws should be changed. The laws are useless if not used to good effect.
As for the points on the liars cheats and scum bags, if they deserve that tag, then lets use it. They deserve no respect for their vile ways. Those who don’t like that are taking it personally, now why’s that i wonder?
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I did not join this forum for an argument. I simply seek some feedback on the property scene because I no longer live in Spain.
However I am prepared to help others by pointing out some of the reasons why things have gone so badly wrong.
My own record speaks for itself and I can defend myself perfectly well. The making of unfounded personal allegations on a public forums need challenging.
I pointed out in very general terms why I think it was so easy for people to be ripped off. That is not the same thing as making direct personal remarks about my ethics just because I happened once to be a property developer/investor in Spain.
I agree with the posts which point out that the laws in Spain are in place to protect consumers. The Spanish parliament have tried to regulate and control the property business. The problem is at a local level. By that I mean Mayors who have too much autonomy, close relations with professionals, lawyers and notaries prepared to ignore or co-operate in malpractice.
After Franco, Spain stopped policing its country to a large extent. The population had had enough of state control and wanted a different society. That was an admirable ideal. Unfortunately it does not work well when so much money becomes involved.
More regulation will not help. What Spain needs are powerful institutions that will deal with the corrupt behaviour of its middle class. -
However I am prepared to help others by pointing out some of the reasons why things have gone so badly wrong.
Logan, I think most of us know why it went so wrong. 🙄 Corruption at every level to start with and then not adhering to the terms of property purchase or Consumer Law.
When we purchased, none of the corruption by Town Halls/Mayors/Developers/ estate agents/Lawyers and more recently Judges, was known about with the exception of the aforementioned of course.
We also know what is needed. Hence the petitions by Roots and Suzanne. -
Great Post Charlie.
Logan.You clearly dont understand one or two that when you join the forum you are not allowed to have a mind and brain of your own.
What you posted is 100% correct however it does not fit in with the cloned fight for justice everyone in Spain is a scumbag ,cheat ,liar.
As you see your morals and ethics will be trashed.You will be insulted without the right of reply in the same tone or you will be reported.
Like here some feel that they have some right to tell another poster not to post buts thats the forum for you.
Hence the Tin Hat business I run.Its better to take it and let others show the real people they are.
Thankfully the ones that matter understand that I post from experience and from the genuine interest I have in Spain both good and bad.
As Peter pointed out the Spanish are in a mindset of their own and feel that they are doing nothing wrong.
I go back to my posting regarding the fight.
Its only a fight if you make it.
Going with the Gun Hoe John Wayne attitude of a few will end up making the situation worse not better.
Right what happens now is that 1 or 2 will be really nice to you and kick the crap out of Frank .
TIN HAT TIME AGAIN
Go on lets get it over with 😉
BEFORE YOU START. Like Logan.Lets cut the arguments he is a bloody good informed poster and a great asset in the push for change.Just Frank 8)
Last week I was supposed to be a double poster 😥 Was it John Wayne or was it Batman.I cant remember.
This week. I was supposed to be sending P.Ms to members trying to find out which solicitors they were using. 😕
Suppose to have a history of throwing foul language.
Go on. Whats it this week 😕 -
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Claire wrote
”Logan, I think most of us know why it went so wrong. Corruption at every level to start with and then not adhering to the terms of property purchase or Consumer Law.”
yes indeed, that pretty well sums it up i feel. Until that changes, i doubt Spain’s costa’s will recover. Just so much lies and c***……sound familiar?
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Posted.
When you write such c*** Just Frank, then you can hardly expect to be taken seriously. Don’t corrupt Logans posts down to your low level.Is that it. Had yer say.
The only thing the editor and anyone else is interested in is that I dont argue against your rude and insulting posts.
Your the one that posted all that rubbish I refered to.Your the one that follows me around everywhere.Goodstich44 ? Finshed.
Can I take the hat off yet . 😆
Logan.
Thats how it works to the letter as posted.(yep its that pathetic)
Nice to Logan.Frank accused of bringing YOUR so called corrupting insulting posts where you have already been insulted down to my level.Insult Frank Again. Flack stops after showing ones self up and the thread gets back on track.
There was once a time when I used to respond.(How stupid I was)
Shakeel . Seems Logan was able to handle it without said helmet.
Frank took the flack. 😆 I know ? A true hero 😉Just Frank 8)
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I see nothing wrong with Logans initial post on this thread.
He simply gave an acurate view of the prevailing behaviour during the so called boom.
Yes some agents were crooked, some were honest, but sadly, most were inexperienced and ignorant.
When it came to the clients behaviour, some were downright greedy, some were decent and honest in their speculation, but, most were inexperienced and ignorant, so, little wonder it all went very wrong.
It must be said that, no-one was forced into buying a Spanish property, many were told inacurate facts by inexperienced sales people.
In all honesty, just like those who have lost money in shares and stocks, it was the promise of wealth and riches that was their downfall, it was the same in the first crash in the late 20’s & early 30’s.
If you speculate, then you incure risk. But don’t blame anyone for your losses except yourself.
It takes a decent character to blame no-one but themselves, blame others for your losses and you lack moral fibre.
Now, to put things into perspective, many people such as the Priors, and several members of this forum, were not speculators, they simply became victims of the corrupt Spanish leagal system. But these cases need to be acknowledged by the genuine victims as different, to the majority of losers who were greedy speculators.
Until those real victims can be seen to see the difference between the two, they will be denied much sympathy.
I have little time for crooked estate agents, I have little time for greedy speculators and vendors, I can see why greedy developers stole from UK buyers (simply because they could) – but most of all, I hate and deplore the ignorance of the Spanish legal system to punish the crooked planners/lawyers, Judges and Mayors who still continue to profit from their victims losses.
I don’t particularly blame the ignorant and inexperienced agents who through their ignorance misssold property to miss-informed clients.
Simply. one lot were badly trained (they are victims too) the other lot were badly researched. That situation was down to poor regulation, which, again, all points to the Spanish system of poor justice.
All is my opinion, many will disagree, but it won’t change my opinion one iota!
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Peter
i think most people that had a venture gone wrong through market forces would say ‘well i took a gamble and lost’. Much like stocks & shares. If not it’s simply ‘sour grapes’ as you pointed out.
As Claire pointed out though, corruption at every level is not a way to do business in property or stocks & shares for that matter. At some point in a legal agreement, everyone has to rely on their trust not being betrayed.
In the UK this mostly works due to regulation. Because of lack of regulation in Spain, it just doesn’t!
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Goodstich: I am in your camp on this one. Our synergy should be towards supervision, enforcement & transparency.
In, the mean time we should continue lawyer bashing where they deserve it and expose them & their practises so that the innocent can be protected. At the same commend them where they have excelled and shown true professionalism. Like Law Birds, Maria de Castro, who sadly do not contribute to the forum anymore.
The, subject of corrupt lawyers is now getting exhausting and perhaps becoming counter productive as far interest in the forum goes.
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@Peter Good wrote:
I see nothing wrong with Logans initial post on this thread.
He simply gave an acurate view of the prevailing behaviour during the so called boom.
Yes some agents were crooked, some were honest, but sadly, most were inexperienced and ignorant.
When it came to the clients behaviour, some were downright greedy, some were decent and honest in their speculation, but, most were inexperienced and ignorant, so, little wonder it all went very wrong.
It must be said that, no-one was forced into buying a Spanish property, many were told inacurate facts by inexperienced sales people.In all honesty, just like those who have lost money in shares and stocks, it was the promise of wealth and riches that was their downfall, it was the same in the first crash in the late 20’s & early 30’s.
If you speculate, then you incure risk. But don’t blame anyone for your losses except yourself.
It takes a decent character to blame no-one but themselves, blame others for your losses and you lack moral fibre.
Now, to put things into perspective, many people such as the Priors, and several members of this forum, were not speculators, they simply became victims of the corrupt Spanish leagal system. But these cases need to be acknowledged by the genuine victims as different, to the majority of losers who were greedy speculators.
Until those real victims can be seen to see the difference between the two, they will be denied much sympathy.
I have little time for crooked estate agents, I have little time for greedy speculators and vendors, I can see why greedy developers stole from UK buyers (simply because they could) – but most of all, I hate and deplore the ignorance of the Spanish legal system to punish the crooked planners/lawyers, Judges and Mayors who still continue to profit from their victims losses.
I don’t particularly blame the ignorant and inexperienced agents who through their ignorance misssold property to miss-informed clients.
Simply. one lot were badly trained (they are victims too) the other lot were badly researched. That situation was down to poor regulation, which, again, all points to the Spanish system of poor justice.
All is my opinion, many will disagree, but it won’t change my opinion one iota!
I may be “naive” too but don’t speculators gamble on price not if something wil be built and be legal. Also many Agents were inexperienced (some had only been in the country days and were ex-car sales) but they also lied through their teeth.
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@katy wrote:
I may be “naive” too but don’t speculators gamble on price not if something will be built and be legal.
Thank you Katy. For the second time on this thread I was just about to start with “I don’t understand all the talk on this thread about…….”.
What on earth have property speculators (and them having the moral fibre to accept their losses) got to do with corruption in the purchasing process that is endemic in Spain?
Katy, don’t worry – you’re not naive. Possibly just a bit bewildered by thousands of words that are simply off topic.
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Having caught up with the posts, I think Peter’s post was a good one. Articulate and “balanced” I think is the popular catchphrase. 😉
Having said that I agree with what (I think ) Katy & Charlie are saying. “Why should you be treated any differently or deserve to be ripped off by all and sundry, just because you are an investor, because I think investors account for the majority of purchasers in the property market in most countries, not just the UK or Spain.
I remember when we were looking around to buy, we were asked whether or not we were buying to invest or for lifestyle. We were buying for our family to have a home to holiday in, relax & enjoy. We would never have considered even renting it out. -
I am with Peters excellent post,Goodstich44 and Shakeels reply.
Why. Because they are all straight to the point and full of facts.
As Shakeel says.Lawyers like Maria/Lawbird/Draken dont post anymore.
Lots of good sources of information dont post anymore.why should when their contributions are met with abuse.(I do only have a certain amount of tin hats to go round) 😯
If any truly want a movement for change then then the personal agenda must be taken off the board of a very small number which thankfully are now reduced.
We need these valuable people back.We need those that were in the heart of the action,then and only then can we begin to understand the mindset to encourage change for the good many of us and perhaps the Spanish people.
As Charlie pointed out.The laws are there the movement should be to have them adhered to. NOT FIGHT ❓Shakeels post
The, subject of corrupt lawyers is now getting exhausting and perhaps
becoming counter productive as far interest in the forum goes.THINK THIS CONFIRMS WHAT I AM TRYING GET OVER and ones tin hat received a good bashing.
That doesnt mean we let the guilty off the hook far from it.
As Peter pointed out in an earlier post.To many Spanish corruption is a way of life they see no wrong.I attach a posting from someone that so wishes to join in with the forums yet wants nothing to do with them and think his statement says it all.
Those that this applies to should stand and be counted.THIS APPLIES TO THEM. 👿“Hello from John Wayne,
Dan is not me and I am not Dan.
I am not a regular poster for the very reason that one comment has precipitated all this badinage.
In good faith -I intended to inform other posters by PM of recent news in the general area-
unfortunately -iI did not reply by pressing the PM button.
Wished I had -what a bunch of sad,miserable, paranoid,vultures are out there.
Which was the main reason -i don,t post.
Keep smiling Dan.
AdiosSadly.This was met with the accuation that this was supposed to be me posting under another name.
Now anyone that knows me would realise this is not me (what does banidage mean thought it what you put on a cut)From this I felt enough was enough and withdrew all posting on that forum.
Even on the 2 Forums where I have property and can assure all that I have many P>Ms showing great regret as we had a good form of communication ruined through personal motives.One day it will be realised that I too dont give an oita and will post as long as I am allowed (or set up to get me banned again) using the considerble knowledge I have taken from owing property in Spain.Selling of property Spain ,being invoved with litigation in Spain and yes what I have learnt on the forum.
To those that throw rude,insulting remarks will never have me respond in the same manner so lets have no more of it as it proves to just embarress them and stop further posters joining to the benefit of us all.
The nature of the forums will mean at times there will be disputes and that has to be good as there is no way all can agree with all points.
Move on for gawds sake after.Just Frank 8)
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Enough is enough JUST FRANK. I’m sick of your lies and insinuations.
From this I felt enough was enough and withdrew all posting on that forum
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You did not “stop posting” on eyeonspain. You were blocked by Justin for the umpteenth time because you were , as usual, annoying so many people. I have the pm’s to prove it PLUS the comments were posted on the open forum.
Regardless of what you say or think I had NOTHING to do with your ban. Unlike here, Justin monitors the forum closely. You are pathetic.
So for everyone to see this is what Justin wrote:1/26/2009 9:31:00 PM
EOS Team
Sent to:
Tish
Just to let you know what I’ve blocked Just Dan from posting as he seems to be annoying everyone at the moment. Don’t let him get to you.Regards
Justin
Tish is my sign in on EOS. I can also post all the other comments made against JustDan aka Just Frank…..but I won’t bore you.
I apologise to ALL the forum members for my post but there are only so many lies and accusations that I will have said against me by someone, Just Frank, who I consider a troublemaker and insidious.
If Mark kicks me off because of this post then so be it. I’ve yet to read one post from Just Frank that is of any credence or value.Neither Drakan Or Maria Ever recieved rudeness on this forum. Yet again JUST FRANK you corrupt forums with your c***.
I have invested a lot of time, research and emotion over the last 4/5 years in my dealings with the Spanish property scenario, I have learned a lot and I KNOW that I have helped a lot of people. Just Frank has tried his damndest to trash me. He has not succeded nor will he ..EVER.
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morning all
the bone of contention on this and a few other threads seems to be at what point do we say ‘because that person was naive, they deserved what they got’? If for instance you were talked in to buying a brand new car made by a manufacturer with a known bad reputation for reliability by a clever if dishonest saleman, and it broke down constantly, you would expect people to say ‘idiot or fool, what the hell did you expect’ If you then said to yourself ‘perhaps i did make a mistake, but at least it’s brand new, and i have 12 months warranty, then i think it’s only reasonable to expect that warranty to be honoured. Or do we say ‘tough luck’ that you have a 5 year costly court case against the manufacturer for not honouring the warranty, you shouldn’t have bought the car anyway?. Tempting though that might be, surely we have to believe in the integrity of a legal contract, otherwise we are simply cheated.
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Well put Goodstitch. I think posters saying people were naive is in it’s way a form of posting insult and abuse (as I am sure do many others).
People who came out, didn’t use a Lawyer, left a deposit were naive. This does not seem to apply to posters on here. I could see what was happening, advertisements to buy off-plan and make 30% before completion but hey, I am on the spot, it happened in the nineties when developers went bust and people were left with nothing. How can anyone living in the UK know all this.
Also being naive does not absolve the liars/cheaters/fraudsters. Sounds to me like the old “she was asking for it” in rape cases.
I see Peter is claiming he can give advice on starting a business in Spain. I would suggest he starts his own if he has foolproof knowledge of how to be successful here (especially on the dying costas) and not take money from naive punters!
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Today I have been reading of people wanting to “escape” the UK and go to Spain to start up a business, (photography studio). Another who has mortgaged their UK property to fund not one but two properties, and now it’s all gone pear-shaped doesn’t know what to do as they are not sure that renting the Spanish property will cover the mortgage.
These are a prime example of the people who really did not do their homework and believed the spiel and the dream sold to them by unscrupulous people. -
@katy wrote:
I may be “naive” too but don’t speculators gamble on price not if something wil be built and be legal. Also many Agents were inexperienced (some had only been in the country days and were ex-car sales) but they also lied through their teeth.
I thought the idea of buying off-plan carried just that extra bit of risk regarding whether it would be built, would it be as the plans implied, would the views remain or would they build in front?
Don’t forget those speculators who bought pre-plan at vastly reduced prices, they took an even bigger risk, but were also in-line for a bigger profit.
I thought that was why off-plan and pre-plan sales were generally cheaper than buying resales.
Yes it carried a higher risk, but it wasn’t so much always the lying developer or agent, it was often the corrupt town halls.
But as has been said before, if lawyers had have been more dilligent, there would have been far less victims.
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@katy wrote:
I see Peter is claiming he can give advice on starting a business in Spain. I would suggest he starts his own if he has foolproof knowledge of how to be successful here (especially on the dying costas) and not take money from naive punters!
I feel quite qualified to give business advice katy, it was my job in the late 90’s in the UK. I was one of the founder members of a group of business people in my area who helped new-start business get off the ground and apply for regional government grants. The skills register I set up is still running and has placed many thousands of people into work and business ventures.
I organised training in accounts, marketing and strategic business planning, I helped set-up recruiting and training for Virgin, Freeserve and several others including local authorites regional health authorities and colleges.
Your suggestion that I should “not take money from naive punters” is a similar post to one which you submitted when I first joined this forum, you implied I was another the crooked agent.
So katy, just what career path should I choose that would bring your approval?? 🙄
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@goodstich44 wrote:
Peter
indeed, many would expect lies from an agent or a developer, but a town hall? or worse still a lawyer???. The very people who many trusted as ethical, because without that they are nothing!
I agree goodstich44, but many people in the UK don’t trust their local town halls.
We can’t even trust our House of Lords either, Spain must surely be considered far worse as it has not really let go if it’s Francoesqe values.
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I may be/was naive but when I bought off-plan in the UK I knew prices could go up or down but I did not consider the developer would not build the place or it would be illegal and my Solicitor was in cahoots with the builder.
Peter, I am not questioning you ability to give start-up business advice. (Sounds as if you and I were doing similar jobs, I worked on start ups for the Prince of Wales trust). I am just pointing out that giving business advice (at the moment..maybe for ever!) on starting up in Spain is a minefield.
My only advice would be to start a business in the UK and when successful put in a manager and live in Spain 8)
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@katy wrote:
My only advice would be to start a business in the UK and when successful put in a manager and live in Spain 8)
I wouldn’t argue with that advice katy 💡
But to be fair, there are some succesful ex-pat owned businesses in my area, as I would assume there are too in your area.
Running a business is difficult enough in good times, but in a recesssion, it doesn’t have to be inevitable that all businesses will fail.
A well run, well capitalised business with the right product or service should still earn a living for it’s owners. Yes they may have to trim back on staff and overheads, but they shouldn’t need to close down.
Like estate agencies, there are now, far too many bars, furniture shops, Air-con installers etc. for the market to sustain. But, it is still possible to start one of these businesses in a good location with a good product and take advantage of the diminishing competition gaps in the market.
But the recession is only one of the pitfalls for new-business start-ups.
Most fail in their first year through – underfunding, poor marketing and inadequate resarch “Market Intelligence”, – coming from a business advisory backround, you will certainly be aware of this.
It is not enough in these difficult times, to lean on lawyers and accountants for “Market Intelligence” and strategic business planning. Especially, as this thread suggests, lawyers can’t even get bank guarantees and conveyancing right.
As an Estate Agent, I was asked for help from many clients to find them a commercial unit or exhisting bar etc, even though I was only supposed to help them find a property. There was no business advisory service to refer them to, and , even today there still isn’t one that I know of, in my area at least.
I have little faith in most lawyers and accountants here in Spain, they can be made to do their job properly if you can anticipate where they will fall down. But newly arrived ex-pats cannot anticipate these things, they cannot navigate town hall opening licence short-commings, telefonica, Iberdrola and a host of other obstacles that will delay a new business opening.
I know many people who took on the lease to their new business and ended up paying months of rents costing thousands of euro’s due to delays from the above.
A good business advisory service will oversee the venture, including kicking accountants & lawyers backsides, negotiating lower lease costs obtaining low advertising rates and avoid costly pit-falls as listed above.
I have to admit, a poor business advisor will just take their fee and leave the poor client to fight it out for themselves.
No job satisfaction in that though.
I think we should return to the topic now – I did sprinkle the word lawyer around my post in an attempt to defer any rebuke. 😳
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Peter Good agree with what you say. However
” A well run, well capitalised business with the right product or service should still earn a living for it’s owners.”
What you have missed is human resources & its calibre, You can have all the capital in world, right product, right timing etc. The quality of staff you get in Spain is poor, work shy, with a negative attitude. In many cases I don’t blame them as their managers are of equally poor quality.
“I have little faith in most lawyers and accountants here in Spain, they can be made to do their job properly if you can anticipate where they will fall down.”
If this is the case, why does anybody need them. How does a new comer to business or to a Country anticipate the pitfalls. It is for this reason that
I with reluctance say to people don’t use a lawyer as they will give you false sense of security & in most cases land you in hot water & they than expect you to pay them a pretty penny. -
@shakeel wrote:
Peter Good agree with what you say. However
What you have missed is human resources & its calibre, You can have all the capital in world, right product, right timing etc. The quality of staff you get in Spain is poor, work shy, with a negative attitude. In many cases I don’t blame them as their managers are of equally poor quality.
How does a new comer to business or to a Country anticipate the pitfalls. It is for this reason that
.Most people in business shakeel will tell you that staff can be an asset or a liability.
There is no shortage of motivated and skilled staff at present in Spain, be they British or Spanish. A good business advisor with know where and how to interview test and recruit them.
One area I pay particular attention to is the calibre of owner.
A large proportion of people looking to go into business – when arriving in Spain – look to do something different to their UK experience and qualifications.
As you know, the best advice is to do “what you know”. Changing trades is a real challenge, not only because it is new to you, but also in a strange country with little or no understanding of Spanish company laws and bureaucracy. It’s an accident waiting to happen!
As I said above, with the right help and guidance, it can be done.
A company/business will, at some point, require legal help and it’s important that a good lawyer is engaged at the beginning. They do exist, but a decent business advisor will expedite the legal side of things quicker by knowing when a lawyer is making excuses or giving misleading information.
I have dealt with dozens of lawyers in the past 9 years. I trust a select few, but by pointing a new client in the right direction, it will save them having to go through an expensive learning process.
The same applies to accountants, banks and many other requirements a new business will have.
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@katy wrote:
Peter your advice business is sounding like a one-stop shop that some of the agents used to operate…remember Parador and various others. It sounds as if you will be dealing with chosen Lawyers, Accountants etc. Against all advice on this forum to put all your eggs in one basket!
A business consultant by his/her very nature will be a 1 stop shop for all those things katy. Especially in Spain were the language barrier exists.
The client needs to cut out the leg work, and concentrate on their business. They often speak no Spanish etc and don’t really know where the tax and social security offices are – very stressful.
Back to lawyers or accountants for that matter, as I said I have a half dozen good ones that I work with and have known for several years. They have done work for me personally and for my businesses.
I rate a lawyer on several points.
1) They must be well experienced and knowledgeable in the areas required.
2) They must always answer their phone – or call back within a few hours.
3) They must answer your email in no more than 24 hours.
4) They must keep appointments.
5) They can only charge for the work they do and not for on-going consultations and meeting.
6) They must speak good English for my clients to be able to deal with them direct.
7) They must want your business and act as though they want it.
There are few other small things too, but the main ones are above.
I am always happy to have someone reccomend a good lawyer, bank, Indian restaurant etc. but I, like my clients have the right to pass and check out another if they wish. But if they are paying me to open thier business in a limited time, they need to get these things in place quickly or they hold up the schedule.
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I would not advise anyone to open a business here unless they speak Spanish (or can afford to employ an independant translator).
If they can’t manage to deal with Social Security (or find where they are!) they are going to have to pay for every tiny thing. There are some big successful companies on the coast owned by British people who are/were successful in the UK. No-one would know they are British and some are multi million outfits. Spanish will never trade with ex-pat businesses. Having wrote that I also know many experienced people have failed here. The cost of employing staff and all the legislation defeats most.
Remember Berni Inns. He opened a large place here which very quickly closed. The old owner of the chain of Superdrug used to be a neighbour in my previous home here, do you think they were foolish enough to start dabbling here!
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@katy wrote:
Remember Berni Inns. He opened a large place here which very quickly closed. The old owner of the chain of Superdrug used to be a neighbour in my previous home here, do you think they were foolish enough to start dabbling here!
Berni Inns weren’t exactly thriving by the early 80’s due to the rise of junk-food popularity.
Remeber when McDonalds and Starbucks opened up in Red Square. Did you think – like me – they would fail.
The fall of communism created a new market for these companies, they boomed.
In the early 80’s I owned, a gentlemens tailors and outfitters shop (as they were called then).
One Monday morning, a very amiable man wandered in and purchased from me a Liberty Silk Tie costing 24.99 – expensive in those days.
He chatted away about the menswear trade in a knowledgeable way for half an hour before he declared himself to be a director of Hepworth Bros, a very dowdy and struggling chain store.
His idea was to re-brand all their stores into a modern mix-and-match boutique. I was amused and doubted it would catch on especially as the idea sounded very sixties.
Well the stores became NEXT and he was George Davies!
He was doing the right thing at the right time, even though the idea was not that new, he chose to concentrate on a top-ten range of outfits and accessories instead of the usual shambolic range of anything goes interspersed with last years left-overs.
Every six weeks, they closed for a day, blanked out their windows and revealed a new range, compared to others who had only 2 or 3 ranges per year.
I remeber ladies queing to see the windows uncovered to get a look at these fast moving fashion trends.
He had hit the spot.
It only takes someone to identify a gap in the market and some decent investment and promotion to nurture a new Google, invent a Post-it note or similar.
But it takes very little at all to transpose an existing business to a new area or country and plug a gap.
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Just seen this, a bit off-topic and I am sure some of you have read it. Nothing ever changes does it. I have a feeling this mayor is a chip off the old block 🙄
http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_19833.shtml
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And just before you pull the trigger, tell him you’ll be sending his name & full details to the EU Parliament & the British Prime Minister. It just might make him take some notice ❓
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