Buying off plan

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    • #55083
      Anonymous
      Participant

      My first post on here so firstly hello everybody.

      I have been a frequent visitor to the site and found it a useful source of information and also an enjoyable place to read well informed opinions. I think of late it’s become a site dominated by too many unreasoned comments and quite frankly ridiculous comments. Too many people seem to either hate Spain with a passion (victims of really bad experiences?) or they love it to death and nothing is wrong (estate agents?).

      Anyway, I thought I would start a debate and hopefully we can have some constructive opinions.

      The subject is buying off plan. My views are as follows:-

      When buying off plan you are not buying a property. You can not see what your buying, you can not touch it, it simply does not exist.
      What you are doing is entering into a contract with a builder.

      The builder is promossing to build you a property. He shows you some plans, some pictures and maybe a model of what he plans to do. He agrees to hand over a finished property in 1-2 years time and agrees to fix the final price on the day you buy it. This price is usualy below the price of a finished and existing property.

      For your part, you like the sound of getting a property at below the current market price and if prices increase (as they were doing until recently) you might even be able to sell the contract on and make some money.

      Now, if everything goes to plan this is a no brainer. Anybody wanting to buy a property for their own use would be able to buy at below market value (the only downside is that they would have to wait for it to be built) and anybody looking for an investment would be able to sell before completion and make a profit.

      Unfortunately life is not this simple and there are no such things as no brainers when it comes to purchasing things like property. What you are doing is taking a risk in order to achieve a benefit and the risks are:-

      1. The builder may not be very good and may not complete the property and surrounding urbanisation to a very good standard.
      2. The builder may skimp on some of the features that he promises.
      3. The builder may go bust and not even finish the property.
      4. Prices may not continue to rise. In fact we may see a property slump with prices going down.
      5. The builder may not have the necessary licences and permissions to build.
      6. The finance that the builder or estate agent said you could get may not be available when the property completes.
      7. The piece of land in front of your property may also get built on obscuring your view of the sea.
      8. The nice man from the estate agency who you have know for 24 hours may not be telling you the whole truth.
      9. The lawyer that the above nice man recommended may not be a very good or a very independent lawyer.

      I could probably think of more risks but my point is buying off plan is an investment decision and investments always carry some form of risk. Without being too harsh, one could ask the question to anybody that has bought off plan – “why did you not buy a property that actually existed and that you could see and actualy go into”.

      Some people have made money buying off plan (investing) and some people have lost. That’s the way it goes.

      What is my point on all of this? I don’t really know. I was just thinking to myself today about all the publicity about Spain and the problems that off plan purchasers had, and asking myself the question what do I think?
      I came to the conclusion that I don’t really care. I am not jelous of the people that made money and I don’t feel that sorry for people who have lost. They all took a risk ad some won and some lost.

      Then I thought I’d throw it out to the forum to see is anybody else has an opinion.

    • #92928
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Your point is ?

    • #93128
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Your point is ?

    • #92929
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Hi Frank 😉

    • #93129
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Hi Frank 😉

    • #92933
      Anonymous
      Participant

      shakeel – no point really other than to open a debate on a forum. that’s what a forum is for?

      maximus – no I’m not Frank. I bought a property in Marbella 11 years ago and moved here 5 years ago. Very happy with life and Spain.

    • #93133
      Anonymous
      Participant

      shakeel – no point really other than to open a debate on a forum. that’s what a forum is for?

      maximus – no I’m not Frank. I bought a property in Marbella 11 years ago and moved here 5 years ago. Very happy with life and Spain.

    • #92934
      katy
      Blocked

      Frank, where have you been for the past few days 😆

    • #93134
      katy
      Blocked

      Frank, where have you been for the past few days 😆

    • #92935
      Anonymous
      Participant

      😆 😆 😆

      Frank – listen to me. Trust me.
      To get away with a new identity you really must change your phraseology and sort your spellling out…..

      ….but we have missed ya!

      Hinge and Bracket just don’t have the same ‘kick a***’ effect that you have somehow.
      They just keep rambling on about chocolate logs etc. I’ve had enough of dillusional economists and grumpy old men from Surrey 🙁

    • #93135
      Anonymous
      Participant

      😆 😆 😆

      Frank – listen to me. Trust me.
      To get away with a new identity you really must change your phraseology and sort your spellling out…..

      ….but we have missed ya!

      Hinge and Bracket just don’t have the same ‘kick a***’ effect that you have somehow.
      They just keep rambling on about chocolate logs etc. I’ve had enough of dillusional economists and grumpy old men from Surrey 🙁

    • #92936
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Oh dear this is really sad.
      I don’t pay enough attaention to who is saying what on this forum and really don’t know who Frank is other than I have heard his name mentioned in vain recently.

      I am genuinely somebody living in Spain and I suppose with enough time on my hands to look at forums such as this and enter into interesting debate. Comments such as those I have received are killing this board.

      I tell you what – why don’t we meet up and discuss over a coffe/beer. I live in Marbella but if you are within, lets say an hour travelling I will meet you somewhere convenient.

    • #93136
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Oh dear this is really sad.
      I don’t pay enough attaention to who is saying what on this forum and really don’t know who Frank is other than I have heard his name mentioned in vain recently.

      I am genuinely somebody living in Spain and I suppose with enough time on my hands to look at forums such as this and enter into interesting debate. Comments such as those I have received are killing this board.

      I tell you what – why don’t we meet up and discuss over a coffe/beer. I live in Marbella but if you are within, lets say an hour travelling I will meet you somewhere convenient.

    • #92937
      katy
      Blocked

      Are you anywhere near Elviria? would I have to bring a tin hat? 😉

    • #93137
      katy
      Blocked

      Are you anywhere near Elviria? would I have to bring a tin hat? 😉

    • #92938
      Anonymous
      Participant

      As you will know (if your are based on the Costa del Sol) I am about 15 mins from Elviria. Where would you like to meet? Casi Casi, liquid lounge. I’m going down to tarifa tomoorow for a couple of nights, back saturday and will be watching the rugby in a bar in marbella but maybe Sunday or Monday?

    • #93138
      Anonymous
      Participant

      As you will know (if your are based on the Costa del Sol) I am about 15 mins from Elviria. Where would you like to meet? Casi Casi, liquid lounge. I’m going down to tarifa tomoorow for a couple of nights, back saturday and will be watching the rugby in a bar in marbella but maybe Sunday or Monday?

    • #92943
      Anonymous
      Participant

      😆 Soooo definitely Frank! Computer got no “spell check” Frank? Writing a long spiel about buying “off-plan” is several years too late buddy! That boat left long ago.
      You’re kidding surely Charlie……missing Frank?? 😯 😯 😯 How can you when you’ve got the lovely “Hinge and Brackett”..sorry.. “Hinge & Thornton”?

    • #93143
      Anonymous
      Participant

      😆 Soooo definitely Frank! Computer got no “spell check” Frank? Writing a long spiel about buying “off-plan” is several years too late buddy! That boat left long ago.
      You’re kidding surely Charlie……missing Frank?? 😯 😯 😯 How can you when you’ve got the lovely “Hinge and Brackett”..sorry.. “Hinge & Thornton”?

    • #92944
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Claire – OK guilty of not using spell check but I can assure you I am not Frank.
      I was a bit bored and genuinely wanted a debate on off plan purchasers.
      I am not sure what you and the other people who have replied to my post want to get out of this board.
      Maybe you would like to meet up. Where are you based?

    • #93144
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Claire – OK guilty of not using spell check but I can assure you I am not Frank.
      I was a bit bored and genuinely wanted a debate on off plan purchasers.
      I am not sure what you and the other people who have replied to my post want to get out of this board.
      Maybe you would like to meet up. Where are you based?

    • #92945
      Anonymous
      Participant

      😆 It’s not a dating forum. If you’re that bored go to the beginning of the forum. There’s enough posts about off-plan property purchase to keep you amused for a veeeery long time.

    • #93145
      Anonymous
      Participant

      😆 It’s not a dating forum. If you’re that bored go to the beginning of the forum. There’s enough posts about off-plan property purchase to keep you amused for a veeeery long time.

    • #92946
      Anonymous
      Participant

      OK I’ll go away. I was not looking for a date I can assure you. I just think it’s a shame this forum is degenerating and I feel people like you hide behind your key board and I was trying to say that I am a real life peson, living in Marbella, happy to discuss issues sensibly and happy to step out from behind my key board and meet anybody who wants a real live debate.

    • #93146
      Anonymous
      Participant

      OK I’ll go away. I was not looking for a date I can assure you. I just think it’s a shame this forum is degenerating and I feel people like you hide behind your key board and I was trying to say that I am a real life peson, living in Marbella, happy to discuss issues sensibly and happy to step out from behind my key board and meet anybody who wants a real live debate.

    • #92947
      Anonymous
      Participant

      man in marbelle
      well said man.
      keep away from these idiots or should i say idiot.
      although its a good idea to meet up, as we should have at least 1 thing in common.

      oh and for the idiots/idiot on here that means SPAIN

    • #93147
      Anonymous
      Participant

      man in marbelle
      well said man.
      keep away from these idiots or should i say idiot.
      although its a good idea to meet up, as we should have at least 1 thing in common.

      oh and for the idiots/idiot on here that means SPAIN

    • #92948
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Hi,

      Not sure who’s who…

      But in reply to questions regarding investment / development decisions.

      In taking on more risk (off plan purchase) then you are expecting a higher rate of return – otherwise why take all those risks that you specify (and more) in the first instance?

      The same principle applies to all development decisions taken. The risk return ratio is a common tool for measuring the profitability of an investment which can be compared against other investment opportunites. Obviously you do not know what your actual return will be when you commence with a development but projections can be made.

      Hope that helps?

    • #93148
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Hi,

      Not sure who’s who…

      But in reply to questions regarding investment / development decisions.

      In taking on more risk (off plan purchase) then you are expecting a higher rate of return – otherwise why take all those risks that you specify (and more) in the first instance?

      The same principle applies to all development decisions taken. The risk return ratio is a common tool for measuring the profitability of an investment which can be compared against other investment opportunites. Obviously you do not know what your actual return will be when you commence with a development but projections can be made.

      Hope that helps?

    • #92950
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Marcoloco thank you. At least somebody with some sensible comments. I think we are both in agreement – buying off plan is a risk that people take to gain a reward and sometimes the risk does not work out.
      I was hoping for some sensible debate, maybe people who have bought off plan don’t see it that way? Anyway, not to worry. Maybe it’s not that interesting to folk. I’m off to Tariffa for a few days now – fantastic place, great beaches, fully recommend it for anybody wanting a real chill out place to go.

    • #93150
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Marcoloco thank you. At least somebody with some sensible comments. I think we are both in agreement – buying off plan is a risk that people take to gain a reward and sometimes the risk does not work out.
      I was hoping for some sensible debate, maybe people who have bought off plan don’t see it that way? Anyway, not to worry. Maybe it’s not that interesting to folk. I’m off to Tariffa for a few days now – fantastic place, great beaches, fully recommend it for anybody wanting a real chill out place to go.

    • #92953
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Frank, enjoy your stay in Tariffa.

    • #93153
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Frank, enjoy your stay in Tariffa.

    • #92955
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Take Alan Thornton with you Frank and drop him in the sea somewhere.

      If he is a Chartered Accountant then he is a disgrace to his profession. I’ve never come across such an idiotic CA in my life………..and I know a great many, esp Tax specialists!

      For your info AT, I do meet up with people from this forum and have numerous telephone convos with them. I’ll look your number up in our local directory and give you a call if you like. We could meet up, say House of Fraser. Cafe Zest suit you? Lovely views over Guildford. Maybe Charlie could join us too. 😉

    • #93155
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Take Alan Thornton with you Frank and drop him in the sea somewhere.

      If he is a Chartered Accountant then he is a disgrace to his profession. I’ve never come across such an idiotic CA in my life………..and I know a great many, esp Tax specialists!

      For your info AT, I do meet up with people from this forum and have numerous telephone convos with them. I’ll look your number up in our local directory and give you a call if you like. We could meet up, say House of Fraser. Cafe Zest suit you? Lovely views over Guildford. Maybe Charlie could join us too. 😉

    • #92956
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @Claire wrote:

      Take Alan Thornton with you Frank and drop him in the sea somewhere.

      If he is a Chartered Accountant then he is a disgrace to his profession. I’ve never come across such an idiotic CA in my life………..and I know a great many, esp Tax specialists!

      Its that bad on here its funny 😛 . So you ‘know’ a great many?, If a Tom and Jerry cartoon was on TV I think you would struggle to name the leading characters.

    • #93156
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @Claire wrote:

      Take Alan Thornton with you Frank and drop him in the sea somewhere.

      If he is a Chartered Accountant then he is a disgrace to his profession. I’ve never come across such an idiotic CA in my life………..and I know a great many, esp Tax specialists!

      Its that bad on here its funny 😛 . So you ‘know’ a great many?, If a Tom and Jerry cartoon was on TV I think you would struggle to name the leading characters.

    • #92958
      Anonymous
      Participant

      My husband is a Chartered Accountant. Having worked for KPMG both in London and Paris I can assure you Hinge I know MANY Chartered Accountants, and not one is as idiotic as Thornton. I’m guessing he’s well past working age. I’m putting his posts down to senile dementia! :lol I can’t be bothered reading your drivel. You are a mere disruptive , irritation to the forum but it’s survived worse.
      You are absolutely right on one thing tho’. I couldn’t name Tom & Jerry characters,( other than Tom & Jerry.Thanks for the clue). Shaun is more my scene 😆

    • #93158
      Anonymous
      Participant

      My husband is a Chartered Accountant. Having worked for KPMG both in London and Paris I can assure you Hinge I know MANY Chartered Accountants, and not one is as idiotic as Thornton. I’m guessing he’s well past working age. I’m putting his posts down to senile dementia! :lol I can’t be bothered reading your drivel. You are a mere disruptive , irritation to the forum but it’s survived worse.
      You are absolutely right on one thing tho’. I couldn’t name Tom & Jerry characters,( other than Tom & Jerry.Thanks for the clue). Shaun is more my scene 😆

    • #92959
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @Claire wrote:

      My husband is a Chartered Accountant. Having worked for KPMG both in London and Paris I can assure you Hinge I know MANY Chartered Accountants, and not one is as idiotic as Thornton. I’m guessing he’s well past working age. I’m putting his posts down to senile dementia! :lol I can’t be bothered reading your drivel. You are a mere disruptive , irritation to the forum but it’s survived worse.
      You are absolutely right on one thing tho’. I couldn’t name Tom & Jerry characters,( other than Tom & Jerry.Thanks for the clue). Shaun the Sheep is more my scene 😆

      I swear, you get worse 😛 . If Shaun the Sheep is more your scene, perhaps you should re-watch ‘The wrong Trousers’.

    • #93159
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @Claire wrote:

      My husband is a Chartered Accountant. Having worked for KPMG both in London and Paris I can assure you Hinge I know MANY Chartered Accountants, and not one is as idiotic as Thornton. I’m guessing he’s well past working age. I’m putting his posts down to senile dementia! :lol I can’t be bothered reading your drivel. You are a mere disruptive , irritation to the forum but it’s survived worse.
      You are absolutely right on one thing tho’. I couldn’t name Tom & Jerry characters,( other than Tom & Jerry.Thanks for the clue). Shaun the Sheep is more my scene 😆

      I swear, you get worse 😛 . If Shaun the Sheep is more your scene, perhaps you should re-watch ‘The wrong Trousers’.

    • #92960
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Oh! trust me….I can get a lot worse sweetie. 😆 Anyway, can’t stop and play anymore. I’ve more important things to do than keep you amused. Byeeeeeeeeeee.

    • #93160
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Oh! trust me….I can get a lot worse sweetie. 😆 Anyway, can’t stop and play anymore. I’ve more important things to do than keep you amused. Byeeeeeeeeeee.

    • #92961
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @Claire wrote:

      I’ve more important things to do than keep you amused. Byeeeeeeeeeee.

      Well I hope it isn’t playing Cluedo.

    • #93161
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @Claire wrote:

      I’ve more important things to do than keep you amused. Byeeeeeeeeeee.

      Well I hope it isn’t playing Cluedo.

    • #92975
      Anonymous
      Participant

      no mary its got to wash out its mouth, then get off to school before its late and kept behind. but y would they want to keep it behind beats me

    • #93175
      Anonymous
      Participant

      no mary its got to wash out its mouth, then get off to school before its late and kept behind. but y would they want to keep it behind beats me

    • #93192
      Anonymous
      Participant

      I know MANY Chartered Accountants

      You poor thing. I cannot think of anything worse. I once shared a house with three Scottish Chartered Accountants in Johannesburg. Can you imagine that? God they were tight a*****d Scotts. 😯

    • #93004
      Anonymous
      Participant

      I know MANY Chartered Accountants

      You poor thing. I cannot think of anything worse. I once shared a house with three Scottish Chartered Accountants in Johannesburg. Can you imagine that? God they were tight a*****d Scotts. 😯

    • #93193
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Couldn’t agree more Maximus!!! 😆 Everything they say about CAs is true. That said I have a lovely husband who more than makes up for his “bottom line” attitude. I’ve got a double whammy though, he’s got 50% Scottish blood in his veins. 🙁 You’ll understand my predicament! 😉

    • #93006
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Couldn’t agree more Maximus!!! 😆 Everything they say about CAs is true. That said I have a lovely husband who more than makes up for his “bottom line” attitude. I’ve got a double whammy though, he’s got 50% Scottish blood in his veins. 🙁 You’ll understand my predicament! 😉

    • #93195
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Oppps – sorry. Put my foot in it again! 😳

    • #93010
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Oppps – sorry. Put my foot in it again! 😳

    • #93196
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @maximus wrote:

      Oppps – sorry. Put my foot in it again! 😳

      Not at all Maximus! 😀

    • #93012
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @maximus wrote:

      Oppps – sorry. Put my foot in it again! 😳

      Not at all Maximus! 😀

    • #93295
      Anonymous
      Participant

      To the game zone:
      Claire wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:24 am
      I know MANY Chartered Accountants, and not one is as idiotic as Thornton. I’m guessing he’s well past working age…”

      Hello Claire, Didn’t you learn to respect the people age? … it’s the second time I take you in this fault…What happen with you?…

      I am improving my English. Thank you for your time. 8)

    • #93296
      katy
      Blocked

      Hi Frank, how’s things? or Qué hay.

    • #93299
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Because he has been barred from this forum, he is being as disruptive as his small brain can cope with. It is a shame that the forum is not being closely monitored because it is allowing him to destroy it which appears to be his sole intention. Come on Mark, get SPI back on track and remove the jokers (prats) please.

    • #93301
      Anonymous
      Participant

      i totally agree with you claire. its best you and your moronic pals just leave. most of your input is pathetic beyond belief

    • #93302
      Anonymous
      Participant

      married to a ca no wonder you have problems.

      still looking for a english pub and full english! can u help

    • #93303
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @Claire wrote:

      Because he has been barred from this forum, he is being as disruptive as his small brain can cope with. It is a shame that the forum is not being closely monitored because it is allowing him to destroy it which appears to be his sole intention. Come on Mark, get SPI back on track and remove the jokers (prats) please.

      Well, for the moment nobody seems interested in buying or selling or how the market is. So playing hide-and-seek with Frank et al. is more interesting. 😆

    • #93304
      Anonymous
      Participant

      playing hide-and-seek with Frank et al. is more interesting.

      😕 Each to his own flosmichael!

    • #93305
      katy
      Blocked

      I think it is the intention of one or two posters to change the agenda or kill the forum. Or they have started school holidays early. 😉

    • #93306
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Yes Katy I agree. Meanwhile, people are using other forums to discuss and learn about the property market and its associated topics elsewhere. Until these disruptive people are removed then this forum is on a one way ticket and it’s not “up”.

    • #93307
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Claire, Katy,

      Whilst I agree 100% with your sentiments I honestly believe you are making thinks worse by reacting to these trolls. It only gives them what they want, recognition.

      If you simply ignore them they´ll eventually get bored and move on.

    • #93308
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Tried and tested Brianc_li. The only way they stop is if they are removed by the moderator. Then they come back using another name.

    • #93310
      Anonymous
      Participant

      so predictable and so pathetic.

    • #93314
      Fuengi (Andrew)
      Participant

      Alan what exactly is the point of you comments? At least people like charlie, claire and katy all in all have been a positive contribution on this forum.

      Whereas half you posts are insults.

      Be the bigger man then and ignore them if you think they are pathetic, etc…

      We are all meant to be adults here.

    • #93315
      Fuengi (Andrew)
      Participant

      If there is a poster that someone thinks is Frank and he has been banned, I am sure Mark could check the IP address. And even if it is him, just ignore the poster or wait to he says something inflamatory before attacking.

    • #93316
      Anonymous
      Participant

      fuengi
      get real.
      so y did u post.
      my case rests.
      it was’nt me that started the swearing and insults.
      just your mates.
      still looking for full english.ha ha ha

    • #93318
      Fuengi (Andrew)
      Participant

      @alanrthornton wrote:

      fuengi
      get real.
      so y did u post.
      my case rests.
      it was’nt me that started the swearing and insults.
      just your mates.
      still looking for full english.ha ha ha

      yes yes hahaha.

      I posted for the simple reason that I thought you might be a reasonable person who came onto this forum orginally to gain some information and who might be willing to impart any hard earned knowledge where possible.

      Instead you seem to be acting like everyone is against you on this forum. Regardless of who started it, why not just end it?

    • #93320
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Fuengi , he posted his insults on a thread which was promptly moved to “step outside” Mark deleted them so he has now posted there as one of his other names “Tree” 🙄 There’s nothing reasonable about him….he’s lonely.

    • #93321
      Fuengi (Andrew)
      Participant

      Just seems such a waste for nearly every other thread to degenerate into insults these days.

      Is everyone so engrossed in these forums that vendettas have to start? So what if one person insulted another on a thread.

    • #93322
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Mary Hinge wrote: Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:24 am (Buying off plan)
      “Its that bad on here its funny… 😀 ”

      Hello Mary…Yes they (the gaming zone people) are fun, but in a simple and boring way…like to give bread to the pigeons… they never said something rational or deep…when anyone (out of his band) give any sentence the only thing they manage to said is “ don’t feed the troll” or “call him/her stupid”, just insulting terms,… well at last I am improving my English.

      I been outside for a time, but sadly I can see they always do the same to every one…well, I will go for more bread…
      Nice to speak with you Mary.

    • #93323
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @Claire wrote:

      Yes Katy I agree. Meanwhile, people are using other forums to discuss and learn about the property market and its associated topics elsewhere.

      Which other forums? I do not know of any other forum where one can find and relevant information about property market.

    • #93326
      Anonymous
      Participant

      To the game zone:
      Feeding the hobbit:
      Flosmichael wrote:
      “It is obvious that many Spaniards will put the blame on foreigners for many of their problems. The good news is that life will teach them a lesson”
      Flosmichael wrote:
      “Spain had a once-in-a-lifetime chance to get rich due to construction sector. Take that away and see that the Emperor has no clothes…”

      You don’t know nothing about economy, do you?

      Spain is not, as the topic, a very poor country (go to data or understand that if we have a quite good healthy system is just because we can pay it)…really never have been (any person with clever eyes can see it walking along the big cities streets)…
      DATA: “www.cia.gov/library/publications/the world-factbook”
      When Spain joined EU, the GDP per capita was 80% of the GDP per capita of the mayor countries of the EU-12… From that year Spain has cut the gap 1% per year. In fact it was not until 2002 when Spain recover the relative GDP per capita position (between the Europeans countries) Spain had in 1975 (Franco die)…In that date 1975 Spain was, as now, very near to the GDP per capita of UK…later of that date Spain suffer a huge economic recession : The 1º petrol crisis and the change of Dictator to Democratic government (it wasn’t cheap)…This are facts, everyone have access to them.
      So, neither now neither before join the EU, Spain was a very poor country, just a little poorer than UK.
      Don’t you understand this? Feel free to any question dear hobbit…by the way if I have time I will show you how poorly you read the statistics (Mary Hinge´s tread).

      You are quite funny 😀 , You follow you are own interest…to get the better table at the restaurant…You obviously are very busy in order to buy in Spain and at the same time you always speak badly about Spain 😯 . What that mean?….You are funny , You are like the man waiting for a table in a restaurant, and speaking badly about the food to the other waiting customers at the file, in order to get a better table…really funny 😀

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