[Anonymous]

Has your bank guarantee failed you?
Guarantee dishonoured: result – lost savings and no property!
Can’t get your deposit back?

Do you want your deposit back?
Action is needed against banks when their guarantees are not honoured.

As many of you are aware I am one of those caught up in the Bank Guarantee fiasco: the guarantee is supposed to be for our, the consumer’s, protection when things go wrong. In reality we have been left at the mercy of the developer’s and Town Hall’s foul practices. We are in danger of losing substantial savings, and there being no property to enjoy at the end.

I can’t sit still.

It’s my belief that there are a huge number of us in the same predicament. The Bank of Spain, as reported by El Pais and quoted on SPI, http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/buff/2008/08/bank-guarantees-for-off-plan-stage-payments-a-new-source-of-woe-for-buyers/ claims not to have received many complaints. We need to act.

So, to protest, I’ve organised a web petition which I intend to send to the Governor of the Bank of Spain as soon as possible. Under the heading of ‘Buying off-plan in Spain? Spanish banks should honour guarantees’ it can be found at:
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/spanishbankguarantees.html
It is being hosted by GoPetition. Please take a look.

The petition is specifically focussed and worded so that anyone who has been, is now, or is likely to be involved in, recouping their deposits through the use of a bank guarantee will be able to sign. I need your support – unity is strength and all that.

For anyone unfamiliar with a web-petition, and for reassurance, let me explain that it has two elements – a public list and a private list. The public facts collected will show only your name, country/region, and date. If you wish, even your name can be hidden although this is not advised. The facts that will be withheld from public view are those which you are able to give re the names of the developer and development, the names of the bank and the legal status of the build. These facts will be hidden (for legal reasons) and made known only to me as the author of the petition and to the Governor of the BoS (of course!).

Importantly, there is also a box for your Comments. You can make these public if you wish. You have just 500 characters (not words) to use here. This is the opportunity to give the petition some succinct wellie. Or not – you can ask for your comments to remain publicly hidden if you prefer. The GoPetition home page http://www.gopetition.com/ explains how their system works.

If you agree with the above, sign the petition AND write directly to the Governor of the BoS.

Advertising this petition.

I need your help here. I’m alerting the national press and have succeeded in getting the attention of a couple of journalists. Mark has kindly offered to write about it in his blog. Michael Cashman (MEP) has agreed to publicize it too. My local paper has expressed an interest in writing a column. Local papers have large readerships and it would be good if, after signing the petition, you would send a copy of the petition preamble to your local paper letting them know of its existence. Who knows? We might get a few signatures that way. Because it is very specific it won’t be as big a petition as the splendid effort of Suzanne’s last year but, never-the-less, I hope it will hit hard.

I’d be grateful for any suggestions and support. I’m reachable through this forum and also through the mechanics of the petition itself.

roots

[katy]

Go for it Roots, those so called “guarantees” are worthy of a third world republic. Good luck!

[Anonymous]

Good Luck wth this petition Roots. I’ll certainly support it. I’ll email you a very good contact too.

[Anonymous]

Post deleted.

Just Frank 8)

[Anonymous]

All the best with this Roots. Hopefully, it will play a part in helping all of us fighting for justice.

[Anonymous]

“I’ve organised a web petition which I intend to send to the Governor of the Bank of Spain as soon as possible. Under the heading of ‘Buying off-plan in Spain? Spanish banks should honour guarantees”

I feel that you should head it “Bank Guarantee” instead of off plan. As the Bank Guarantee will be hopefully under his remit than construction of off plan. It would also be useful if you could quote the legislation’s that the
law require the bank guarantees to be provided to a buyer.

[Anonymous]

Hi roots

followed your case for a long while, and obviously been horrified at the way you have been treated. Well done for getting this going. I will be more than happy to support the case of BG’s not being honoured.

Several of us have an added problem though, that no BG was ever issued that alone honoured, because Aifos refused to issue one, which is against the law anyway!! Thanks to our corrupt UK agent and the corrupt UK and Spanish lawyers, this was never admitted. We only found out when we switched to our current lawyer.

It would be good if we could include our situation in with the ‘not honouring BG’s issue’, it’s obviously related, but i understand it’s a different situation, and i certainly wouldn’t want to direct any attention away from your case, so perhaps those not even issued a BG, should make a seperate case. What do you think?

[Anonymous]

Do you want those of us who should have a bank guarantee – who have verbally been told we have one but have never seen it to sign also?

[Anonymous]

Post deleted.

Just Frank 8)

[Anonymous]

Hey, thank you for your encouragement and your comments. We have a start!

Shakeel, Goodstitch and CES – Yes, I have made the petition very specific. All I’m doing is asking the BoS to take action against banks who have refused to pay out on guarantees given by them to would-be purchasers of off-plan developments to cover stage payments made. Simply that. A guarantee is a promise and the banks, having broken their promises, need to be called to account.

As far as I’m aware, buying off-plan is the only time a bank gives a guarantee for property purchase. Correct me if I’m wrong. When a built property is purchased in Spain is the buying process exactly the same as in the UK? 10% on exchange and 90% on completion (or something similar)? Shakeel, if I’m wrong and bank guarantees are given generally then the title should be reworded and I can arrange to do that.

Good idea – I’ll try to find the reference to the law which requires banks to provide guarantees – but if anyone knows it off the top of their head then please let me know.

The point that has been raised re purchasers never receiving a guarantee in the first place is one for the lawyers and the developers I think, and not one for the BoS. When I was first planning the petition I did think about how to hit at all these problems in one go. But in the end I decided that to do so would weaken the petition because it would lack a definite direction.

A second petition to the President of the CGPJ (Consejo General del Poder Judicial – The General Council of the Judiciary) see http://www.llrx.com/features/spain.htm#judicial – click on section 2.1.3. – could be a good step to take IMO. Every lawyer involved in conveyancing in Spain knows full well that a bank guarantee should be provided. It’s criminal not to do so. And it’s not just the lawyers, it’s the developers too who know that BGs should be issued. Who regulates them? Where are Consumer Rights in all this? Isn’t this where the Ombudsman comes in? Maybe there should be a third petition…

Believe me, what I want most is my money back because it’s been taken from me on false pretences. While this petition is about naming and shaming it’s also about raising awareness of issues and applying pressure where there was none before. And we know from experience that petitions can be successful in introducing (and even achieving) change. It’s a bit like planting a tree – we might not live long enough to harvest the fruit but somebody will in the end. So, if you’re in my situation do please sign the petition now running, and if you were not given a guarantee at all think about sending one to the CGPJ.

Thanks again for the support.
roots

[Anonymous]

roots

great to see people supporting this, and thanks for your advice to those who were lied to by their lawyers, in that a BG was never supplied in the first place. Sadly it was a UK conveyan**** company that let us down in the first place, in cahoots with the well known dodgy agents OV* who used the dreaded A**os to complete the triangle of lies!!

We have our case coming up next April. The fact we were never issued a BG has been noted. It’s just one of several huge breaches of contract we have through dealing with con-men.

Thanks for the link to the CGPJ. I will contact these people anyway, to clarify my situation.

Good luck again. As you rightly say, action and pressure taken now, has to be the way to go, not just for our own cases, but to change things for those who follow in our footsteps. Except from the bad guys, everyone will gain in the long term from flushing out the cheats!

[katy]

There is the Banking consumer association
http://www.ausbanc.es

States that their málaga office can deal with matters in English too. Don’t know how effective they are but it should be their concern.

[Anonymous]

I’ve removed this post.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Katy, yes it should.

Here we go – here is a link to your bedtime reading for tonight!! Have you seen this?

http://www.ausbancinternacional.org/

Maybe in 20 or 100 years

roots

[Melosine]

Sounds a good idea Roots but personally believe petitions/organisations are only a good as their strength in numbers so surely it is more logical to associate oneself with the many, already existing , that have done the groundwork.

[Anonymous]

message deleted

[Anonymous]

There are clear crossed wires here and to avoid any confusion I to delete my posting.

Just Frank 8)

[Anonymous]

I’ve removed this post.

[Anonymous]

Roots: In case you haven’t already read this article by Mark:

‘..Consumer organisations and buyers have complained to the Bank of Spain, which claims it has never received this type of complaint before. The Bank of Spain is preparing a report, for release in September, that criticises the practices of certain banks. “We are still looking into some cases, but the conclusion is that some banks have not behaved diligently,” a source from the Bank of Spain told El Pais….

The Bank of Spain is adamant that the financial institutions underwriting the guarantees must pay out in full if developers are in breach of contract. “The financial institution has to ask the developer if there has been any breach of contract, for example a late delivery. If so, the payout should be automatic,” the Bank explained to El Pais…’
http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/buff/2008/08/bank-guarantees-for-off-plan-stage-payments-a-new-source-of-woe-for-buyers/

I haven’t found the BOS September ‘report’ as yet.

[Anonymous]

Deleted .

Just Frank 8)

[Anonymous]

Dear Suzanne and Melosine

Thank you, Suzanne, for the reference to Mark’s article. Yes, it was reading this that made me want to contact the BoS because it seemed to me that there was a glimmer of a change in attitude emanating from the BoS and I should seize the moment (as it were). I have taken two quotes from this article and written them into the petition.

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/spanishbankguarantees.html

As you know I’m a member of a group of 5 involved in a group action. While I was composing the letter to the BoS it struck me that there are others who are in the same boat as us. And wouldn’t it be a good idea if I could get 20 signatures on the letter rather than 5? And it would be positively brilliant if I could get 50. And that’s how the petition started. I’m not aware of any other petition going to the BoS about this issue, Melosine, otherwise I would have jumped on board.

Because of the urgency of our situation I hope the petition can be sent early in the New Year – however many signatures it has. This is not a petition about numbers – it’s about an immediate issue. Which is why I’m asking all readers of this Forum to give it maximum publicity in any way they can.

I hope this mailing will finally clarify my motivation and that we can now get on with the business of asking the BoS to do something about these failed guarantees.

roots

[Anonymous]

A REQUEST!

Your support is urgently needed advertising the petition. We need maximum publicity!

A letter to the general editor of your local press, or to the editor of the travel/property section, would be a terrific help. A cut and paste job of the actual petition will do, you don’t have to write it yourself. And you don’t have to be caught up in guarantee problems yourself – we just want people to be made aware of the petition so that if they need it, it’s there for them.

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/spanishbankguarantees.html

TIA
roots

[Anonymous]

My post is deleted after taking factors into consideration.
Good luck with the petition regardles of where the support comes from.

Just Frank 8)

[Anonymous]

I’ve deleted/edited my first 2 posts of Friday 21st, as they have clearly been completely misunderstood.

Just one hour after Roots had initially posted about her Petition I offered my support, & of course continue to wish her all the best with it – most of all justice.

Why anyone would think I have some kind of ulterior motive in my comments about Roots’ Petition is truly beyond me, & gut-wrenching to be honest. No, this is NOT a competition. Any more pms/emails to this effect will go straight into the garbage bin where they belong, & not be answered.

One thing I would add: my view is that ‘Anonymous’ signatures are useless. Have the courage to put your name to your voice. And if you’re a couple sign Roots’ Petition twice. Of the hundreds of people on the SPSP Petition I’d say 99.9% of them are in the middle of court cases, & are proud to give their names & show they will not hide behind any cloak of anonymity – why should they.

[Anonymous]

Roots – It may be an idea to also send a copy of your Petition to David Hammerstein – if you haven’t already. He’s very approachable.

Like you, many of us are anxious that the new PGOU will issue LFOs to properties that are part of our on-going cases, and may have a detrimental effect on the final rulings.

DH seems to me very passionate about the fact that this is, as he says, “legalising criminal acts”, so I’m sure that his support would be valuable.

His website details:
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/members/expert/alphaOrder/view.do?language=EN&id=28345

[Anonymous]

HI.
WE ALSO HAD INFO FROM THE LAWYERS STATING THAT THE BANK GAURANTEES WERE LEGALY BINDING AND REQUIRED BY LAW TO BE ISSUED.
WE WERE INFORMED THAT THEY WOULD BE ISSUED BY THE BUILDER WHEN THE PAYMENT WAS MADE.
THE LAWYER LATER STATED THAT THEY HAD ASKED FOR A BG BUT DEVELOPER HAD NOT ISSUED ONE.
JUNTA SHUT SITE DECLARED ILLEGAL IN RUSTIC LAND.
NO BG.
DEVELOPER FILED FOR SUSPENSION OF PAYMENTS.
COURT CASE NOW PENDING INSOLVENCY AND CRIMINAL ACTION.
WE HAVE BEEN ROBBED, PURE AND SIMPLE.
PM ME IF I CAN BE ANY HELP IN ANY OF YOUR ACTIONS .

[Anonymous]

😯 WOW! Roots, Gordon Brown has signed the petition!!!
(But I don’t think it’s the one most familiar to us ,unless of course he has bought in Spain !!)

[Anonymous]

We have just learned in the last few days that the judge in our first hearing in the Court of 1st Instance who found for us was the same judge who found against us in the Appeal brought by the bank. So it wasn’t a case of different judges, different verdicts – it was the same judge with the same evidence who changed her mind!! I wonder why?

roots

[Anonymous]

That is quite appalling Roots. Surely an appeal should be heard by a different judge! It makes a mockery of so called Spanish justice..as if it wasn’t bad enough. 😈

[Anonymous]

Claire

amazing isn’t it! Does the judge admit that her ‘judgement’ in the first trial was wrong then?, and if so, how many other cases has she made the ‘wrong’ decision. Is she up to the job?……or has new evidence come to light that hadn’t been seen in all the time leading up to the 1st court case?

Does this stink of corruption or what?

[Anonymous]

Does this stink of corruption or what?

Pretty much confirms it Goodstitch,IMO!

[Anonymous]

Seems it could be a case that he or she got it wrong in the first place and thats what appeals are all about in any civilised country.
Why does it have to a case of corruption. 😕
So everytime a case goes against us it has to be corrupt but in the event that it goes in the buyers favour then its justice. 😕
Cant we realise that many got themselves into their own problems and now expect the law to bail them out.
This is wrong and just cases should receive justice and the others should not expect someone else to pick up the tap for legal agreements they went into with developers of who some have kept their side of the agreement.

Just Frank 8)

[katy]

I think Mark should see about having an ignore button on this forum 🙁

[Anonymous]

katy

yes, hard to know where to start, so best ignored i think.

[Anonymous]

Now Mark dosent need an ignore button and he probably dosent need both of you tit-tatting just because someone says it as he believes .
Probably thinks that if you dont like it ignore it. 😉

Just Frank 8)

[Anonymous]

Post Deleted.

[Anonymous]

vilprano

A tragic set of events which left you so exposed and its genuine cases like yours that need support.
Impossible to defend the actions of the developer and more important the solicitior
As you paid for a proffesional service have you considered suing the solicitor.
Have you managed to check what the financial status is of the developer.

Keep digging to try to find an angle as one just may be there.
In any event I wish you well.
Cant say it looks good but think you know that by now. 😥

Just Frank 8)

[Fuengi (Andrew)]

roots

have pm-ed you.

[Anonymous]

More happy weekend reading!

http://www.theolivepress.es/2008/11/27/were-banks-linked-to-planning-scandal/

To remind:

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/spanishbankguarantees.html

If the petition is appropriate for you (you have a bank guarantee and it hasn’t been honoured) and you haven’t yet signed , please do. Keep the signatures coming…

Many thanks to those of you that have.

roots

[Anonymous]

This link was sent to me this morning by a signatory of the BoS petition. A very clear exposition. Take a look.

http://www.marbella-lawyers.com/articles/showArticle/spanish-bank-guarantees

roots

To sign the petition go to:

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/spanishbankguarantees.html

[Anonymous]

roots

yes, that’s a good clear repoprt, just a pity that despite many following the rules, they are still not getting justice. What is the point of a set of rules, if they are not enforced. If you have a BG then why should anyone have a problem trying to use it?? It it wasn’t Spain, it would be unbelievable!

In my opinion the whole situation is a bloody farce. We haven’t even got a BG, despite a UK lawyer (now gone bust) and a Spanish lawyer assuring us we had. You would think, as a legal requirement that itself would give us a strong case against the developer who we now know didn’t provide a BG. Not so though, apparantly the courts don’t see that as a serious enough issue to come down heavy on the developer!

We have to rely on some great people on this and other sites, gathering petitions and doing their best to put pressure on those who can make a difference, and a good lawyer we have found, to do the best they can for us, working within a completely crap system that seems determined to look after the very people they should be locking up, at the expense of decent people, swindled in every way.

Things don’t seem to be improving very fast do they? Being in the right in Spain, still seems to stand for very little.

[Anonymous]

“a clear report”; firstly a number of errors, secondly i wonder who these guys are? where they one of the big conveyancing practices “tied” to the British run big gun agents on the CDS? How many of their clients are in the same SH-T? ; is this a bare faced post to catch desperate “homeowners” now that the normal flow of sales has evaporated?? love the helpful hints designed to snare the fallen !!

This is a good website but do not be naive; so many of you have been screwed once, don’t fall for the same patter – same people different suits!! there are many EA here looking for sales masquerading as good samaritans and “lawyers” acting like ambulance chasers churning punters !!

[Anonymous]

UBEDA

no offence meant, but i think you will find you are wrong on this one, and have not done your homework? This report is from the good guys who have won cases agaist some of the worst developers on the CDS.

[Anonymous]

no offence taken: who is Be legal. com ? who were they, what was their name before ? who is behind them ? who was their biggest provider of customers ? surely some one knows?

[Anonymous]

UBEDA

all the info you are asking is on that page!

[Anonymous]

@UBEDA wrote:

“a clear report”; firstly a number of errors, secondly i wonder who these guys are? where they one of the big conveyancing practices “tied” to the British run big gun agents on the CDS? How many of their clients are in the same SH-T? ; is this a bare faced post to catch desperate “homeowners” now that the normal flow of sales has evaporated?? love the helpful hints designed to snare the fallen !!

This is a good website but do not be naive; so many of you have been screwed once, don’t fall for the same patter – same people different suits!! there are many EA here looking for sales masquerading as good samaritans and “lawyers” acting like ambulance chasers churning punters !!

UBEDA,

Every now and then we have someone attacking us on the forums. These attacks normally come from developers or agents, who might be upset because we have sued them and won. In rare cases we also receive attacks from colleagues who have seen some of their clients leave to join our firm.

After reading through your past contributions to these forums to try to determine your affiliation and perhaps understand the nature of your unwarranted attacks, we can conclude you are neither of the previous; you are just an Internet Troll, it’s just as simple as that.

We won’t waste our time defending our firm from your accusations. The site belegal.com speaks for itself (thank you goodstich44). The good thing about running your own site (10 years already) is that you don’t have to rely on estate agencies or anyone else as client providers. Our leads are self-generated.

Besides, we’ve hardly done any conveyance at all in the past and most certainly now post credit-crunch even less. Proof of this is that we are still in business and hiring. Our law firm is renowned and specialised in litigation, as anyone whose dealt with us will know and be able to confirm.

If you follow this link – http://tinyurl.com/59bya3 you will find ‘classified’ information which will prove very useful in your “quest for truth”.

Regards

[Anonymous]

UBEDA has asked a valid question – Who are Lawbird?

Any law firm I have ever worked with has usually gone to some lengths to identify its partners and staff and to provide background/profiles etc but I couldn’t see this information on Lawbird’s website.

Lawbird would appear to be Spanish limited “SL” company. Is it that it is some type of legal consultancy or umbrella organisation possibly sub-contracting out work?

[Anonymous]

@JJB-Mijas wrote:

UBEDA has asked a valid question – Who are Lawbird?

Any law firm I have ever worked with has usually gone to some lengths to identify its partners and staff and to provide background/profiles etc but I couldn’t see this information on Lawbird’s website.

Lawbird would appear to be Spanish limited “SL” company. Is it that it is some type of legal consultancy or umbrella organisation possibly sub-contracting out work?

“Possibly sub-contracting out work?” Really, where do get these things from. We do not sub-contract any work nor are we an “umbrella organisation” or “consultancy”. All legal work is carried out by ourselves.

It’s just a normal Spanish law firm specialised in litigation, that’s all. Perhaps we’ve been somewhat overzealous in our privacy, but we like it that way.

It was the policy of the company not to provide employee’s profile’s online. That will be changed and in the next months solicitors profiles will be posted on our website (lawbird.com). Besides, all articles and private queries are always signed by the solicitors themselves.

You are welcome to visit our law firm whenever you want and meet us, the solicitors, in flesh. You may also peruse our section“about us” in which our lawyers have been interviewed by the media in different cases, such as class-action lawsuits in time-share scams, off-plan woes etc.

Regards

[Anonymous]

Lawbird

Perhaps there is no doupt that you may be the very ones that I have been accused or supporting by running with the hares and hunting with the dogs (is that right Claire) 😉

However like it or not there are to many just like UBEDA mentions as well you know.
Attacks like that will do none of us anygood.

So while posting can you give me some insight into litigation on the Costa Del Sol and how well your firm does
What does it cost and whats the chances of Bank Guarantees paying out and why dont we hear about success.
I appreciate that you cant talk cases but dont you have a regular posters case thats an out and out con thats gone on for many years.

Great to see you posting by the way even if it were pretty tackless mind you I am an expert at that.

Just Frank 8)

[Anonymous]

by running with the hares and hunting with the dogs (is that right Claire)

Err…No! (but don’t worry about it! 😆 )

[Anonymous]

Lawbird

As you referred me to your “about us” web page I took a quick look but I’m afraid I am none the wiser?

Many of the articles are credited to a Antonio Flores but is that not the same Antonio Flores who for the past eight years has owned and ran the law firm known as “Lawyers of Spain” as per their website?

Possibly there are two Antonio Flores and if so it’s my mistake and I apologise in advance for confusing the two.

But in any event, like you say, it is the firm’s choice to maintain a certain level of privacy as to the lawyers behind the firm.

[Anonymous]

@JJB-Mijas wrote:

Lawbird

As you referred me to your “about us” web page I took a quick look but I’m afraid I am none the wiser?

Many of the articles are credited to a Antonio Flores but is that not the same Antonio Flores who for the past eight years has owned and ran the law firm known as “Lawyers of Spain” as per their website?

Possibly there are two Antonio Flores and if so it’s my mistake and I apologise in advance for confusing the two.

But in any event, like you say, it is the firm’s choice to maintain a certain level of privacy as to the lawyers behind the firm.

No need to apologise JJB, he’s the same lawyer. Antonio is one of the partners at Lawbird, along with 4 other lawyers including myself, as well as being a partner in several other firms, including Lawyers of Spain of which he is the sole proprietor.

He’s the one that appears mostly on hosted tv shows & interviews quite simply because he has the highest command of English from all of us. I believe he’s dualy qualified in law (English & Spanish) as he obtained his LLM in Essex. Besides, the rest of us don’t really like being under the spotlight and Antonio doesn’t mind.

Again, I repeat my offer, why don’t you come over and visit our law firm? You will be able to meet all 12 employees.

Regards

[Anonymous]

To me this all sounds rather cloak and dagger!

The way I see it many Marbella lawyers in the past have had very lucrative deals running with estate agents and developers and were anything but independent and did little to help their “referred clients” in terms of negotiating contract terms and thus ensuring clients were as protected as they should be but nevertheless charging clients max fees for the privilege.

Obviously such firms were not going to bite the hand that feeds them but the work was there so I guess set up under a different name and take on the litigation work especially against the developers that maybe were not referring them much work etc.

But this leaves you wide open to all sorts of conflicts. One minute you are wining and dining estate agents and developers and the next minute with a victim and ready to wage war against the very same developers. Now that the conveyancing market has all but dried up I guess it’s time to put more effort into promoting litigation and at the same time set up your own “independent” forum and join other reputable forums and reel the clients in.

So maybe UBEDA was not too far out when he said “same people different suits…and “lawyers” acting like ambulance chasers churning punters !!

You may feel my comments are unwarranted and misinformed but if you come onto forums such as SPI promoting your firm and your own forum then you have to expect other members to ask questions. Spain is a very grubby place in which to do business and sadly many members on this forum are victims of one sort or another. Once you identify all lawyers and law firms behind Lawbird then I will be able to decide if you really are the good guys!

[Anonymous]

Dear Lawbird

This thread is now widely off-topic. With respect, please may I ask you to initiate another thread where your different concerns can be voiced. I would be most grateful.

roots

To bring the thread back on-topic I will attempt to recap the petition to the Governor of the Bank of Spain as questions have been asked about it by posters to this and other forums.

The petition to the Governor of the Bank of Spain will be sent to him for one specific reason. He is the man who has some power within his domain to exercise authority over the banks of Spain. You can read on the Bank of Spain’s website that, under the Banking Discipline Law, he can apply pressure where he sees fit and in some cases he can impose sanctions. Examples are quoted.

My own complaint is that I was given a legitimate guarantee from a High Street Bank which this same bank will not now honour. The courts, through three hearings and a review, whilst at first supporting me have reversed the initial decision and found for the bank. My complaint then to the Governor of the BoS is about the misuse of the courts by the banks in order to hold on to deposits.

My guarantee was a straightforward clear document of insurance – there is nothing in it to quibble about. It says all the right things in all the right places. I should have been able to claim against the bank without a problem. I need not have gone to court; I need not have had to wait three and a half years; I could have used the money to buy a legal property somewhere else thus enabling Spain’s property market to continue to prosper.

The Governor of the BoS is not responsible for people not receiving bank guarantees. The fault there lies with the developer and/or your lawyer. I also think the agents can hold their hands up here, too. When selling properties they could advise clients to make sure that all the legalities are in place. They are the ones with the knowledge of the area and the property climate and could have been underlining the ‘Buyer Beware’ caution. Some did; some didn’t.

If people without guarantees want to make a complaint then they should write to the President of the CGPJ (Consejo General del Poder Judicial – The General Council of the Judiciary) or, if they wish, draw up a separate petition to go to him. Personally, I would do both.

Suzanne’s petition which she is taking to No 10 – Spanish Property Scandal Petition – covers all points and everyone with any kind of problem can sign up to that. She has done such a stalwart job and well deserves a sympathetic hearing from Gordon Brown followed by swift action from him for all of us. If our Government can bail out savers in English banks that go under then surely they should consider bailing out the hundreds of us who are losing big money in Spain through no fault of our own. But that’s my opinion.

Yes, there is strength in numbers but that was never an aim of this petition. It was designed to focus on one particular aspect of the problems surrounding BGs – one which could be addressed by the Governor of the BoS, so he says. I, together with all the signatories, are literally calling his bluff!

Once you have read the petition itself, and you feel that it applies to your case, and that you can support it by making your position very clear in the comments box, then please sign.

I intend these to be my last words on the subject matter of the petition and I do sincerely hope that the above answers some of your concerns.

Thank you for taking time to read this.
roots

[Anonymous]

Our most sincere apologies to Roots for the hijacking of your thread by UBEDA and now JJB. We have only posted on your thread to defend our reputation and good name of the serious accusations made by UBEDA and JJB which cannot go unanswered.

@JJB-Mijas wrote:

To me this all sounds rather cloak and dagger!

The way I see it many Marbella lawyers in the past have had very lucrative deals running with estate agents and developers and were anything but independent and did little to help their “referred clients” in terms of negotiating contract terms and thus ensuring clients were as protected as they should be but nevertheless charging clients max fees for the privilege.

Obviously such firms were not going to bite the hand that feeds them but the work was there so I guess set up under a different name and take on the litigation work especially against the developers that maybe were not referring them much work etc.

But this leaves you wide open to all sorts of conflicts. One minute you are wining and dining estate agents and developers and the next minute with a victim and ready to wage war against the very same developers. Now that the conveyancing market has all but dried up I guess it’s time to put more effort into promoting litigation and at the same time set up your own “independent” forum and join other reputable forums and reel the clients in.

So maybe UBEDA was not too far out when he said “same people different suits…and “lawyers” acting like ambulance chasers churning punters !!

You may feel my comments are unwarranted and misinformed but if you come onto forums such as SPI promoting your firm and your own forum then you have to expect other members to ask questions. Spain is a very grubby place in which to do business and sadly many members on this forum are victims of one sort or another. Once you identify all lawyers and law firms behind Lawbird then I will be able to decide if you really are the good guys!

JJB,

We are not promoting on this forum. We only have 9 posts and half of them have been spent already on this very thread replying to yours and UBEDA’s unfounded accusations. If you reread this thread carefully we’ve only posted on this thread because we have been unjustly attacked.

@JJB-Mijas wrote:

The way I see it many Marbella lawyers in the past have had very lucrative deals running with estate agents and developers and were anything but independent and did little to help their “referred clients” in terms of negotiating contract terms and thus ensuring clients were as protected as they should be but nevertheless charging clients max fees for the privilege.

Again, a false accusation. Marbella-lawyers is not a law firm, as anyone can check, it’s a website (marbella-lawyers.com/belegal.com) created in 1999.

Did you read my post in which I write we have hardly done any conveyance at all in the past decade and certainly almost none now post credit-crunch?

Did you read that our legal enquiries (Lawbird) have always been self-generated precisely through this website that is now 10 years old? People rather prefer to email us privately their legal queries of which I receive personally more than 30 a day, all of which are replied.

Did you read that at no time has any Estate Agency, Estate Agent or for that matter any other company ever recommended, endorsed or referred us clients?

Unlike other law firms we’ve never been appointed by any REA as their recommended lawyers “churning out conveyances or punters” as UBEDA wrote and you post above so crudely. Please search for any such link to Lawbird. You will find none because we have always done what we like and do best.- litigation. We also offer a broader range of legal services including, of course, conveyance but it has never been our main work as you would have us believe.

The criticisms we receive from time to time on forums are never from clients. They are from developers, estate agents and occasionally from some colleague (who is recommended and contributes in estate agencies btw as we’ve proved with links).

You post:

“(Lawbird)did little to help their “referred clients” in terms of negotiating contract terms and thus ensuring clients were as protected as they should be but nevertheless charging clients max fees for the privilege.”

Where are you getting this false information from? What vested interest do you have in attacking us unwarrantedly? All of our clients have always been treated to the best of our professional abilities. None of our clients can claim they did not have a bank guarantee or we did not request it on their behalf acting as their appointed conveyance lawyers. Besides most of our clients, I’d say above 90%, are litigation clients. There are no contracts to be reviewed and negotiated as you write only lawsuits to be filed and cases to be won, and that we do with both pleasure and passion.

I think we are old enough to know what we should be writing or not in public forums JJB. Normally I really despise having to threat people with suing them for libellous remarks they cannot uphold and I know for a fact they cannot because they are downright false (and very offensive) such as the ones above posted by yourself repeatedly and irresponsibly. Heed my friendly advice taking it as it is and not as a threat.

@JJB-Mijas wrote:

You may feel my comments are unwarranted and misinformed but if you come onto forums such as SPI promoting your firm and your own forum then you have to expect other members to ask questions.

Again please reread our replies. Long before SPI, EOS or any other forums were created we were already answering to online queries, since 1999 to be precise. In fact we have replied over the years to nearly 30,000 legal queries over the last decade. The queries you see publicly posted on the said website are only a fraction of what we have received over the years

Not only do I personally think your attacks are unwarranted, your comments are totally out of line. You and UBEDA have blissfully accused us of things which are only figments of your wild imagination. If you choose to believe them, so be it, I won’t be able to convince you of the opposite.

I’ve already posted that the lawyer’s profiles will be posted on our website within the next months yet you again insist on this point (?).

Again if you choose to fly unfounded accusations over the net rather than meeting us up in person, as I’ve offered you twice, then it really makes me query your ulterior motives to attempt to discredit us publicly permanently. The same goes for UBEDA.

If you have a factual accusation to make, do so publicly please JJB don’t hold back, if not then I would kindly request you to refrain from posting conspiracy tales (cloak and dagger) where there are simply none and only honest and hardworking people with families to raise which don’t like reading false things such as the ones you’ve recklessly posted.

On the comments of us being “the good guys”, we are neither good nor evil. We are simply professionals, no more no less; solicitors that take care of our clients, and only of them, to the best of our professional abilities.

Regards

[Anonymous]

Lawbird wrote:
‘Long before SPI, EOS or any other forums were created we were already answering to online queries, since 1999 to be precise. In fact we have replied over the years to nearly 30,000 legal queries over the last decade. The queries you see publicly posted on the said website are only a fraction of what we have received over the years…’

This is absolutely true – not that they need my confirmation. Long before I was a client of Lawbird, they spent some time sending me information about the development I had ‘purchased’ on, even emailing me copies of documents from the Town Hall with the relevant Facts, at no cost to myself whatsoever. At the same time my then lawyer was not admitting this vital information. I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend Lawbird to anyone.

[Anonymous]

Bringing back this thread to Topic, Roots said: ‘If our Government can bail out savers in English banks that go under then surely they should consider bailing out the hundreds of us who are losing big money in Spain through no fault of our own…’.

Thinking on sort-of-similar lines, there may be a valid argument here that some of our money is being held ‘illegally’ in Spain; hence the need for Government intervention also. Not a bail-out though.

[Anonymous]

Banks take over leading Spanish property group…

http://www.expatica.com/es/articles/news/Banks-take-over-leading-Spanish-property-group.html

So that’s where my money’s going!

roots

[Anonymous]

The Sanahuja family, This not a very Spanish name. Does anybody knows where this family is from ?????

[katy]

Didn’t realise that spanish banks were into bailing out overstreched developers!

Shakeel sounds like a Spanish name to me 😕

[Anonymous]

Banks will do anything to cover themselves and or make a profit in the short or long term.

[Anonymous]

Just a reminder! And for those of you who haven’t seen it yet…

If you’ve got a problem with an existing bank guarantee then please join with us in letting the Governor of the Bank of Spain know. Give him the opportunity to do something about it.

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/spanishbankguarantees.html

Thanks
roots

[Anonymous]

Having had to go to court to get the bank to pay up on ours (despite our infamous ‘no-build’ situation), support you all the way on this Roots.

Is it too late for us to sign or does our done-and-dusted situation rule us out?

[Anonymous]

Charlie, no it doesn’t rule you out. You should not have had to go to court at all. Putting you through the worry and the expense was unnecessary and WRONG.

Your bank should have paid out on being presented with the claim at the outset. You have every right to complain to the Governor of the BoS about it.

A guarantee should be exactly that – a guarantee.

So it would be good to have your signature, Charlie. Thanks.

roots

[Anonymous]

I didn’t receive a bank guarantee at all!!
Is there anything that I can do? ❓

[Anonymous]

This may help your understanding of the nature and purpose of bank guarantees and might clarify your situation:

http://www.marbella-lawyers.com/articles/showArticle/spanish-bank-guarantees

What to do about it is another matter. Even when you have a guarantee in place it seems that there is always a legal loophole through which the banks can escape paying out.

roots

[Anonymous]

Great- I have found out that my abogado was too busy to discover if bank guarantees were in place(2005)
I found this out in August 2008!
I have a new independent lawyer who is now working on my behalf to try to get me released from my contract.
Thankyou for the information.

[Anonymous]

Article in today’s Observer:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2009/jan/11/spain-property-abroad-expats

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/spanishbankguarantees.html

roots

[Anonymous]

Dear Roots,
Because my abogado was too busy to discover if bank guarantees were in place do you have any suggestions as to the recourse I can now take?
It looks as though the original abogado might be shutting down his operation as he now only has one office in Malaga -he did have one in Madrid and one in Costa Blanca and we have heard rumours that he might have been in England December time trying to raise capital!

[Anonymous]

“Because my abogado was too busy to discover if bank guarantees were in place do you have any suggestions as to the recourse I can now take?

Its a case of negligence & should be taken to the colegio de abagado. Dont expect them to do anything, However reporting the event is the least you can do to bring to their attention.

“It looks as though the original abogado might be shutting down his operation as he now only has one office in Malaga -he did have one in Madrid and one in Costa Blanca”

Does not surprise me . However a honest & professional firm would have survived the down town because of the good will & reputation built by them.

we have heard rumours that he might have been in England December time trying to raise capital “

Why, would an Abagado be raising finance ?? He is not a banker or financier.

[Anonymous]

I don’t know why he is in London raising finance.
Perhaps I got the wrong end of the stick and he is here for another purpose!
My English solicitor who is actually Spanish is prepared to write a letter to the Colegio as apparently they won’t read it if it is not in Spanish.
I’m in touch with my MEP, the minister for Europe, The Spanish Consumer council and have run out of other people to contact now!
regards
Petunia 13

[Anonymous]

Petunia, I don’t have a definitive answer. Your lawyer was obviously at fault and you need to find a new one who will act on YOUR behalf and in YOUR interests (not his or the developers). That is, if you want to go down the legal route as it’s long, tedious and expensive. I know, because I’ve done it – 2 sets of lawyers and 3 and a half years of court proceedings.

The only suggestion I’ve made in the past is that you write to the President of the General Council of the Judiciary (Consejo General del Poder Judicial -CGPJ). [Google him] I quote:
The General Council of the Judiciary was established by the Spanish Constitution of 1978. It is an autonomous institution governing all the judicial instances of Spain, such as tribunals, courts, and judges. Its major functions are to assure the independence of the individuals and institutions under its government in front of other State institutions, as well as to appoint judges, and to maintain ethical standards within the legal profession.

If my beef had been a legal one then this is who I would have directed a petition to. As it is my beef is with the Bank.

Further suggestions: Do make sure your complaints go to ALL your MEPs. Depending upon your region you will have anything between 3 and 10 of them. Write one letter but send a copy of it to them all. Go to see your MP – they all have surgeries. I am convinced that the solution to our problems will be a political one in the end. When EU funding is withdrawn from Spain it will begin to address its institutionalised corruption. So call for sanctions.

Politicians have to work for us. We elected them and this is what they are paid to do.

Best of luck
roots

[Anonymous]

“Politicians have to work for us. We elected them and this is what they are paid to do. “

That what we have been made to believe. My previous MP, Labour with 14K majority, kept my paper work, did not bother when I chased him. He told me that he cannot deal with my case as he does not have time, this after wasting six months.

My current MP another labour, elected for the first time, full of himself. Speaking to him it was quite obvious that he was not concentrating from his body language or had any interest. The question that he raised where also presented to him in a witten synopses as well as explained verbally. He still looked unconcerned.

[Anonymous]

Dear Roots and Shakeel,
Thank you for your replies.
I have written to 2 meps so far and am just going to try to find out how many others are in my ward.
I have also tried http://www.cec.consumo.es as they are the Spanish consumer council but have had no reply yet.
I will put an update on the website- if I get one!
Roots- do you have to write to the Spanish colegio in Spanish?

[Anonymous]

http://www.cec.consumo-inc.es

[Anonymous]

Petunia, you do have to write your letter in Spanish to the Collegio de Abagados.

[Anonymous]

Thank you for that info.
My solicitor in England who is actually Spanish will be able to do that for me.
regards
Pat (Petunia)

[Author]

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