- This topic has 48 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 11 months ago by
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Good morning (also posted on EOS)
well after 7 years and 3 months we have won our case against Aifos and OVP. Congratulations are in order to Lawbird who made this possible and to the judge for making the right decision, and a huge thanks to those of you who have supported and helped me through the nightmare……so far!!
Will justice be done though?. There is still a possible appeal to be dealt with, and due to the 12 month court delay on hearing our case we are now in a position of being creditors as Aifos filed for protection against creditors in July, so it’s a bit of a hollow victory at the moment and will remain that way until we truly know our position.
We will know in the next few months/years where we stand, but this has at least made the long fight for justice very worthwhile to me. The fact we now have proof in court that we were cheated is a huge moral victory.
We wont give up until real justice is done and our money is returned, but this is a big step in the right direction.
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Well done Goodstich 44. The battle has been won but not the war.
Compliments to Lawbirds, perhaps other lawyers take note that if a firm is professional, honest & works in the best interest of its client they will always be busy due to their good name & reputation. In addition they will & enhance the reputation of their profession.
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Claire
that will indeed be the icing on the cake. The cake will be hard to swallow without it!! As for those who have ridiculed me for banging on….well a ‘Harvey Smith’ to them!
Oliver/Mark
thanks and yes, after being swindled by one UK lawyer and one Spanish one, it’s good to find one we could trust.
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Fist of all:
Congratulations Goodstich44.
I hope all your nightmare end in getting your money back.I hope as well you don’t forgot all your words, a man is prisoner of his words, and by any reason BUY AGAIN IN SPAIN. You know you have many reasons.
Secondly:
Claire wrote:
”It puts egg on the faces of all those who have ridiculed you for banging on about corruption at all levels in Spain.”
Goodstich44 wrote:
“that will indeed be the icing on the cake. The cake will be hard to swallow without it!! As for those who have ridiculed me for banging on….well a ‘Harvey Smith’ to them”Is great fun how so many times the person with a cake in his/her face don’t see it….
Any objective observer could notice that if the system is corrupted at all levels that will mean is corrupted for your good and for your bad,…in other words THE CORRUPT SISTEM HAVE GIVE YOU THE VICTORY; Your own words.Don’t you see it?, any person who had follow your history, Will read:
In the Spanish corrupted system at all level “we have won our case against Aifos and OVP.” …I suppose that Aifos can claim, as you have done, that if they have lost the case is because the totally corrupted system…don’t you see it?.
In few words…don’t throw the cakes up to the sky if you don’t want they fall down in your faces.
Don’t worry I know you will not understand my point
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tree
winning a case and getting your money back in Spain are very different things. If you know anything about Spanish justice you would know that.
On the bad side, yes we are victims of corruption by a developer, a lawyer, an agent. Yes we are victims of a court system that through delay might well have denied our chance of real justice. And yes we are victims of a government that doesn’t pay back those they have wronged through corruption, lack of regulation and lack of implementation of law.
On the good side, we have had great support from some people on this forum, from our current lawyer and from the judge who passed sentence, but what have we to show for a 7 year battle and our case won?
We are just creditors in a long line of creditors, despite winning a case in court after 7 years of being screwed!!
I get your point but do you get mine? I still have no return of money robbed from me in 2002. by corrupt agents/lawyers/developers.
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To Goodstich44:
Goodstich44, I have read your posts,…and you should know that I am with you, when you claim justice, in this case I am with you 100%,…Many of you have won your cases in the court,…and many have get your money back (I am sure you Know),…but that doesn’t mean nothing in your heavy sentences.I have read some of them, and see how easily can be turned:
Angie wrote: (Sep 10, 2009 3:14 pm )
“Could many of the million plus unsold Costa properties be turned into more jail rooms for the crooks involved in Spain’s dodgy property and drug indrusties, especially since many of those developments now look like prison blocks?”
goodstich44 wrote: (Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:53 pm )
”good idea Angie, but who would run the country?.”Funny, polite and nice…aren’t they?.
In the actual contest, and answering your funny topics, I could be looking for a topic like this:AIFOS26 claim:
“In the Spanish corrupted system at all level, AIFOS26 have lost the case against Goodstich44.”…
…So funny,… and with the same arguments as usual,…so the people don’t need to make too much auto critic,…don’t need to think too much,…the heads will not hurt,…people will love it,…could be a NUMBER ONE in the family.Justice is a objective term, although viewed in a subjective view,…of course we are humans, and you as a human been can only see the things in a subjective way.
I know that you have suffer, and that make your objective point of view too much subjective,… a long way too much (in my opinion)….I just hope that every thing will finish right for you,…and you, one day, will found the time and the courage to rethink about all your sentences.
Regards. -
Goodstich may have ‘won’ his case but it has taken 7 years to get to this point & because of the way the courts treated him, & caused his case to be delayed, he probably won’t see any money. In a country with a fair system & real legal system the whole issue should never have arisen because he would have got what he payed for.
It doesn’t matter what laws a country has, what matters is how those laws are applied.
As long as the Spanish people allow their legal system to operate in this way they are part of the problem, that is why some call the country corrupt!
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rob6578
you are right of course. Had the system not allowed such corruption in the first place, I would not in the position I am now.
The 12 month delay in getting a hearing in which time the developer filed for credit protection just meant that even winning our case has not lead to justice yet?
I also agree that as long as the Spanish allow their legal system to let people down then it will probably carry on that way and Spain’s recovery will be it’s own victim of delay!
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rob6578 wrote:
”It doesn’t matter what laws a country has, what matters is how those laws are applied.As long as the Spanish people allow their legal system to operate in this way they are part of the problem, that is why some call the country corrupt.”
I don’t know if you are an usual newspaper reader,…but looks to me that your sentence is a little naïve.
With your same argument and reading any UK newspaper,…I will arrive to your same sentence. Don’t you see it?.…and about any subject, drugs, corruption, racism,…• Unfortunate for you I read the UK newspapers,…(Bad news).
• Fortunate for you, I am not so naive neither so ungentle to said the same sentence that you have said (Lucky man).Soooo….Yes rob6578, YOU ARE SO RIGHT,…You so easily have understand the true facts. Regards
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rob6578
glad tree can see you were right all along.
Someone said recently that the EU should hold back subsidies from Spain to set up a fund for those cheated by the Spanish system. It seems that would be a fair answer if the Spanish government refuse to compensate those who have won cases but are still denied justice due the delays or failure to implement law.
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To rob6578 and Goodstich44:
Is very strange the way you speak,…heavy sentences but without a back ground information,…I am not angry,…that is your nature,… anyway what ever you like to do, will be all right!!.
I have been taking a look, and there is plenty to read,… very surprising news,…
I am completely sure you will love if I send to you, a little information, every single week or daily, as you wish. I have already the hard disk full with corruption data, all in UK. So I will not lost my time looking for it.
Before to make the sentences you wrote you should have made your homework, you didn´t , so I will do for you (as too many times).“The full scale of alleged buy-to-let scams is starting to emerge with the collapse of mortgage lending and house prices, according to the Serious Fraud Office.
Detectives are looking at cases involving thousands of investors losing millions of pounds in alleged property frauds in the UK and overseas.
Many investigations are examining off-plan buy-to-let frauds involving hundreds of properties in Leeds, Cardiff, Nottingham, Derby, Liverpool, Hull and London.
Already this month five directors of Gateshead based PPP Ltd (Practical Property Portfolios Ltd) and sister company Napeer (Holdings) Ltd have pleaded guilty to fraudulent trading charges.
Newcastle Crown Court heard the companies were wound up after £65 million of investors’ money was lost. PPP sold 4,000 residential properties to 1,750 investors for £80 million. Sentencing will be in March.
Investors paid in £25,000 fees for property in ‘up and coming’ areas in the northeast with a rent guarantee.
The defendants misled investors in almost every material respect. said the prosecution.” -
tree:
how you can compare the situation in the UK with Spain baffles me.The stories you highlight, yes, show some problems in the Uk. However, as those stories show, the authorities have taken action, people have been arrested & charged, trials have taken place & penalties imposed.
You chose to highlight a story about the police looking at thousands of investors in the UK who may have have lost millions. Well, are the Spanish police looking into similar problems in Spain?
Will any prosecutions take place in Spain?
People can get conned anywhere in the World, a true test of a Countries legal system is what happens then. At least in the UK ‘some’ form of justice will happen. People will go to prison. In Spain, not a chance!
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rob6578
yes, I don’t think anyone would doubt the fact the UK has it’s fair share of crooks, and as we know many of them prospered very nicely in Spain for quite a while because they could get away with it. The fact their greed and lies came back to bite them, as it has the Spanish system is the very reason it was wrong to be tolerated. It seems (almost?) everyone can see this apart from those in a position to action the changes needed to start Spains recovery in the property market.
tree
well I hope you can stand proud in the safe knowledge that opinions like yours have helped to make Spain’s property industry what it is today!
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Tree, I bought 2 houses in UK, without even thinking of hiring a lawyer. For the first one I used developer’s solicitor, it did not even crossed my mind they would not be honest.
I bought 1 house in France and I trusted the notaire with the paper work, it did not cross my mind that he would be dishonest.
I bought many houses and parcels of land in USA and it never crossed my mind that anybody would be dishonest.
I bought houses and land in Romania and nobody was dishonest.
Would I do the same in Spain? Hell, NO!! I would probably hire 2 lawyers and even then I would still be worried…
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To Frosmichael:
As I have said I never used a lawyer to buy in Spain,…I don’t know any Spaniard who have had any problem with property,…We (Spaniards) don’t use lawyers because we carefully read the contracts, involved in the process,…so I can not understand you.
Isn’t it strange than in most of the cases you are dealing, the buyer, the seller and the company are British?….There is corruption in the property market? Yes. There is corruption in the Banking system? Yes,… What will you think if I said that “UK is completely corrupted to the bones”,…just because the UK Banking system have been more damaged than the Spanish Banking system?,…You should think that I am being very ungentle (to don’t said harder words)…Why you (most of you)could not be a little more equilibrate persons?,…Didn’t I give you plenty of DATA?.
PD-According of DATA you should be very carefully when buying in Rumania.
But as always you know better than any international organism, you know Spain better than Spaniards,…I accept it.Anyway a promise is a promise, and Goodstich44 and Rob6578 are waiting:
Scandal UK:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/propert … 375652.ece.
Detectives are investigating one of Britain’s biggest buy-to-let schemes in which large numbers of investors have seen their savings wiped out.
They fear thousands of people who sought to cash in on the buy-to-let dream during the boom years of 2004 to 2007 may turn out to have been victims of organised fraud.
The Serious Fraud Office (SFO) is investigating alleged scams that have cost government-owned banks such as Northern Rock, Royal Bank of Scotland and Bradford & Bingley millions of pounds on loans that should never have been made. …
A comment from a victims:
1. The sad truth is that this property fraud is continuing in sheffield by shevell and pimlico properties owned by Lee Jones an associate of Simon Morris. Properties can be registered on the land registry for £100,000 one day and be registered for nearly £200,000 the next. How can that be right? Investors can’t all be blamed for being greedy or mindless when they are dealing with so called registered companies and associated professionals. Why should this be allowed to happen with no recourse – if they can get away with this why not everybody join the fraud wagon. Thats the joke when these people can just get away with daylight robbery by ruining other peoples lives. Still what goes around comes around that really is the truth! -
@tree wrote:
PD-According of DATA you should be very carefully when buying in Rumania.
See, you are also biased towards Romania… Just because you might meet many beggars and other possible dishonest Romanians in Spain, does not mean that buying property in Romania is dangerous.
In Romania there is a notaire like in France who takes all the responsibility when a contract is made. In Spain it seems that nobody is responsible if a contract goes wrong.
One last word. I was this Summer in Benasque and I was talking to some lawyer from Madrid. he was not very bothered by the issue of illegal buildings.
He simply said: “a buyer in Spain should bribe in equal amounts the local and regional authorities such that none of them become gelous and declares the building illegal.” So this is probably the bext advice: spread the money evenly and grease everybody.
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Frosmichael wrote:
“See, you are also biased towards Romania… Just because you might meet many beggars and other possible dishonest Romanians in Spain, does not mean that buying property in Romania is dangerous. “No,…I have some Rumanian workers and they are great in every aspect,…I am happy and proud to be their friend,…I know there is corruption every where,…and dishonest people in every where,…But I will not judge a country for just some examples, or news,…
….I am warning you because the “INTERNATINAL CORRUPTION INDEX” or “EUROPEAN CORRUPTION STUDIES”,… that is I believe a better found of information,…I already have give you the DATA and the internet direction in another topic,…I believe they are more objective than some personal histories, told by not very educated persons,…didn’t you read them?….PLEASE DON´T SAID ME THAT I AM WASTING MY TIME,…INCLUIDING IN THAT POINT?,…OH MY GOD!!!. -
Has to be said, whilst there are many worse, Spain doesn´t come up too rosy here:
http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2008
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If ever I wanted to read a good result for one of this forum’s members, it was for you Goodstich. And now after all these years you’ve received at least some justice (plus a deserved smack in the face for Aifos).
Now for the most important part, actually receiving your money back which I hope will follow soon.
But for this result so far, many congratulations. -
Tree – han pensado alguna vez de unirse a un foro de habla española? Siento que la gente puede al menos tener una oportunidad vaga de comprender lo que es en realidad estás tratando de decir.
@tree wrote:
PLEASE DON´T SAID ME THAT I AM WASTING MY TIME,…
That’s yours to waste.
I’m more concerned that our sanity and our “healthy” is suffering. 🙁 -
Charlie:
I am improving my English, I don’t have a lot of opportunities to do it.
I am learning, you are teaching me a lot. Is a funny way to learn.
Don’t you like to read Spanish DATA from an Spaniard first hand?…In most of the case I am more informed than you (your group) do?…I am one of the very few different opinions in the forum?…Is that so bad?…Is a forum to get and discuss information or a hooligans club?.
Please, could you be so nice to correct mi sentences (grammar mistakes). Thank you.
Regards -
@tree wrote:
Charlie:
Please, could you be so nice to correct mi sentences (grammar mistakes).Would love to help but just wouldn’t know where to start. 😆
“Is very strange the way you speak,…heavy sentences but without a back ground information”
“Before to make the sentences you wrote you should have made your homework, you didn´t”
“In most of the case I am more informed than you (your group) do?…”Omitting some of the assumptive dribble like this would be a good start.
English lesson:
assumptive – accepted as real or true without proof. -
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Thank you, Charlie:
assumptive – accepted as real or true without proof.rob6578 wrote:
As long as the Spanish people allow their legal system to operate in this way they are part of the problem, that is why some call the country corrupt.…so this looks assumptive (to me).
rob6578 wrote:
…but I would say anyone buying a property off plan in the UK will at least get the property, more or less on time & it will be legal.…and again this looks assumptive.
So, If find a proof like this: (and a lot more in the UK newspapers)
The full scale of alleged buy-to-let scams is starting to emerge with the collapse of mortgage lending and house prices, according to the Serious Fraud Office.
Detectives are looking at cases involving thousands of investors losing millions of pounds in alleged property frauds in the UK and overseas.
Many investigations are examining off-plan buy-to-let frauds involving hundreds of properties in Leeds, Cardiff, Nottingham, Derby, Liverpool, Hull and London.
Already this month five directors of Gateshead based PPP Ltd (Practical Property Portfolios Ltd) and sister company Napeer (Holdings) Ltd have pleaded guilty to fraudulent trading charges.
Newcastle Crown Court heard the companies were wound up after £65 million of investors’ money was lost. PPP sold 4,000 residential properties to 1,750 investors for £80 million. Sentencing will be in March.
Investors paid in £25,000 fees for property in ‘up and coming’ areas in the northeast with a rent guarantee.
The defendants misled investors in almost every material respect. said the prosecution.Is assumptive to write a sentence like this, answering, to that assumptive person? :
“Is very strange the way you speak,…heavy sentences but without a back ground information”
“Before to make the sentences you wrote you should have made your homework, you didn’t“I am Spaniard, I live in Spain,…I prefer don’t speak too much about myself,…but believe me, that I know very well where I live.
“In most of the case I am more informed than you (your group) do…”
Sorry, I don’t think this is assumptive,…is only the conclusion (my very personal conclusion) of what I read,… many of the sentences I found are ridiculous to me(sorry),…I just correct some, not all….and always I try to give proofs…
There are big mistakes in your points of view, I can not correct all, but there are a lot and very important mistakes,… I only get in to the forum from time to time,… anyway you get very angry when I try to open your eyes…I am going now to take some beers with friends.
Regards. -
@goodstich44 wrote:
Good morning (also posted on EOS)
well after 7 years and 3 months we have won our case against Aifos and OVP. Congratulations are in order to Lawbird who made this possible and to the judge for making the right decision, and a huge thanks to those of you who have supported and helped me through the nightmare……so far!!
Will justice be done though?. There is still a possible appeal to be dealt with, and due to the 12 month court delay on hearing our case we are now in a position of being creditors as Aifos filed for protection against creditors in July, so it’s a bit of a hollow victory at the moment and will remain that way until we truly know our position.
We will know in the next few months/years where we stand, but this has at least made the long fight for justice very worthwhile to me. The fact we now have proof in court that we were cheated is a huge moral victory.
We wont give up until real justice is done and our money is returned, but this is a big step in the right direction.
Can we keep on topic 💡
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Those ‘investors’ who were conned in the UK, have as I understand it, at least ended up with their properties. The problem is they aren’t worth anything close to the purchase price & the rents are nowhere near the figures they were originally quoted.
Again, these frauds have been detected, action has been taken, trials have taken place & people have been sent to prison. All this in less than 2 years. Goodstich’s case has taken 7 years & it still isn’t finished!
Whatever problems there are in the UK with property fraud, & yes, there is some, & yes, most of the brits who have suffered in Spain were first conned by their fellow brits at exhibitions, the developers in Spain are Spanish, the lawyers are Spanish & the banks, who refuse to pay out on the bg are also Spanish!
With regard to the Spanish legal system, it is ultimately down to the Spanish people what system they have & how it is enforced. If they don’t care about what is happening to mainly overseas buyers then they are part of the problem. As I said in an earlier post, it doesn’t what laws are in place if they are ignored.
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It is a fact that the average spaniard doesn’t give a fig to the predicament of thousands of illegal properties owned by British people. They blame the Brits. An article in Málaga Sur last week re. the thousands of illegal properties in Axarquia region only produced ant-Brit responses with the general opinion being that they knew what they were doing and it serves them right 🙄
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Rob – bang on the button.
The irony is blinding – none of the purchasing of illegal builds could have taken place without the complicity/corruption of local town halls et al and the Spanish Government has been happily collecting taxes on same. Yet many Spanish moan that it’s the Brits fault buying illegal builds and they will no doubt moan now we have stopped buying them and their economy and jobs suffer as a result. The penalty of relying so much on constuction as a large part of their so-called ‘successful’ economy during those boom years.
I have just returned from a trip to Mallorca. The only conversations in the cafes amongst the Brits (even in the expensive yacht-owning ‘upmarket’ ones) were discussions about the corruption in Spain – including some horrific personal stories involving mind-blowing sums of money – and how they would never risk buying in Spain again. The Spanish should not forget even the very wealthy are not prepared to be ripped off.
Re. the recession and its effects on tourism, headlines in the island’s English newspaper stated tourist arrivals were 1.5 million down in Jan-Sept. compared to last year with businesses/hotels suffering as a result. For a very small island that is a high figure. I picked up a property magazine and saw how hideously-ordinary villas in the 2/3/4+ million euros bracket had the odd half a million or so knocked off the asking price.
So the bubble has certainly burst there, though the island must get a mind-blowing income from mooring fees from all the multi-million euro super yachts parked in the marinas, especially in Palma. Strange though that despite being September and super weather, none of them actually moved!
It seems Goodstich, Suzanne and others through forums like this one have certainly contributed to spreading the word re. the realities of the utter fraud (there’s no other word for it) that has been rampant in Spain, and yes Rob, you are absolutely right – “until the spanish understand the damage this is doing to their country” their current situation will not improve. The trouble is, I don’t think they ever will understand but just continue blaming the Brits for everything.
Tree, over to you and your new word ‘assumptive’.
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charlie/rob6578
you are both so smack on here. It’s so clear, the result is the obvious conclusion of so much that is wrong. Until those who can force change can see where the blame should be pointed then what hope for justice or recovery of the Spanish property industry?. These things are linked far more than many want to accept.
I was reminded by my lawyer last Friday that my case was admitted by the courts two years and 3 months before Aifos went in to administration. What possible excuse could there be for this delay against a company known for so much wrong doing and in such a fragile situation even back then. Without compensation from the government it amounts to corruption by any other name by the so-called ‘highest order’.
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Time will tell if the EU does withdraw funding to Spain, but if this does happen it may be later rather than sooner. Spain will be taking over the Presidency of the EU in January.
Another serious issue in the news today, which doesn’t instil confidence in Spain’s acceptance of EU Laws:
‘Spain has still not brought safety legislation into line with EU regulations and is allowing airline pilots to work 15 hours a day.
It’s five more than that recommended to prevent accidents, and now a new European report from the European Air Safety Agency is calling for the law to be changed to limit the working day to ten hours……’
http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_23336.shtml -
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Suzanne
so Spain can completely ignore EU regs’ on safety and justice eh? It doesn’t inspire confidence in the EU that alone Spain taking on Presidency of the EU!!. You have to wonder just who (if anyone?) in the EU in crucial positions of trust is listening to right and wrong and acting on it?. It’s a frightening thought.
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‘Both central and regional governments in Spain have virtually ignored the report written by Margrete Auken about land law abuses on the Costa Blanca.Margrete Auken visited the Costa Blanca last week to see just what was happening on the ground as the report was almost unanimously endorsed by the EU in Brussels.
The report was hard hitting and it needed to be…….It appears that because there are no obvious signs of anything happening then am ammendment of the draft budget for Spain will be tabled. If this ammendment is passed ,185 million euros would be placed in a reserveto show Valencia and other regions in Spainthat the EU parliament is determined to make them respect the principlesupon which the Union is founded……..It is about time that someone got tough with the Spanish authorities about the way in which laws are ignored .The land has been abused for gain and people are ignored when they become involved in these land abuses.It as though people just don’t matter,only financial gain.’
Pasted, with their spelling etc!:
http://blog.amlaspain.com/2009/10/06/costa-blanca-visit-by-margrete-auken/ -
Hi Suzanne
that’s an interesting development. I wonder what the chances are of this being put in to action? What other option is there if Spain continually refuses to do the right thing? I also wonder if some of the withheld funds would be reserved for those who the government have cheaated by way of won but delayed court cases and other abuses of human rights?
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Hello Goodstich,
This is exactly part of what Our Petition to the EU requests, as follows:
‘…..The Spanish press has recently labelled 11 towns In the Malaga province alone, as ‘corrupt’; namely Marbella, Alhaurin el Grande, Estepona, Manilva, Gaucin, Competa, Tolox & Ojen, Ronda, La Vinuela, Sayalonga. 18 of the 29 mayors are under investigation for real estate corruption. Many petitioners believe that the Spanish Government should be held accountable. We request that a special Fund be established, taken from EU funding to Spain, to facilitate the Rights of the victims of these scandalous abuses…’
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