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Perhaps if he is this good he should start a practice on the Costa’s
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/afp/20070919/tod-us-justice-religion-offbeat-f62056d_1.html -
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@Fuengi wrote:
not sure how could he can be though…
article wrote:Neither God nor his/her spokespersons could be contacted for comment.what no churches/temples/etc.. nearby?
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Am trying to find the appropriate place to post this, so this ‘What if…’ thread seems the place to be.
What if…..justice was as fair and swift in Spain as it was in Greece this week. This weekend I heard two stories.Story one: a long-established builder, overstretched himself financially by building too much, quality suffered, complaints came piling in e.g. leaking windows, ignored those, still kept building, sales dropped to a halt as word got around. Judge ordered all assets to be seized, current properties taken over by two other building companies on the basis they will take on all complaints and rectify. Builder concerned banned from operating again. Everyone happy (except builder but tough).
Story two: English guy decided to project-manage his own build. Agreed price for foundations – 7000 euros which he paid. Cement guy later submitted another invoice for 42,000 euros with threat of court if not paid because work ‘apparently’ cost him a lot more than anticipated. English guy refused (actual words were ‘**** ***’, censored it for you Mark 😉 ) and taken to court. Judge says to him forget the 42,000 euros, and ordered cement guy to return 1000 euros of the 7000 as punishment for his cheek. The 1000 euros were ordered to be paid in cash!
Justice delivered fairly, short , sharp and sweet and loaded with commonsense. If only in Spain…. -
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Just get frustrated Paul with the Spanish justice.
Am in touch with a lady who still has not had her approx. £100,000 part-payment returned for an apartment that never got built. She paid her money in 2003, developer still has her money and despite ‘winning’ her initial court hearing, they had the cheek to appeal to drag the whole thing out.
What penalty should there be for the cheek-factor in this case? Was just impressed with what I heard this weekend re. the local Greek court.Am I making a case for you all to move to Greece? Certainly not.
Where I am, there are so many things missing 😥 ….double yellow lines, crime, reality tv, McDonald’s, traffic jams, high-rise concrete jungles, air pollution – you would hate it. You really don’t know ‘grim’ until you’ve been here I can tell you…suggest you stay well away 😉 -
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Just don’t understand when the developer knew they would not/could not build as planned (early 2004), why all monies paid as deposits in 2003 were not returned immediately. They kept the fact ‘hidden’ from all purchasers until each one happened to find out for themselves, often years later, and have only paid up when ‘forced to’ through the courts. There is no other word for it other than fraud from the day the developer knew they would never build. Here we are in 2007 and they’re still holding on to some of these monies, riding on the back of long/delayed court hearings. Then they automatically appeal, dragging it out longer. Disgraceful.
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@goodstich44 wrote:
i wonder how many scumbags would have been stopped in their tracks, in common sense had been used before the greed/corruption thing really took hold?
I wonder how many know that they are scumbags. I knew one guy who acted as a corredor and I’m still uncertain that he was deliberately lieing to people. I remember one day entering a bar to find him with a look of joy, a local estate agent had told him of the money to be gained in off plan property and flipping before completion. I think this guy knew he was overcharging but thought that he would never be found out because property was sure to rise in price.
A good salesman believes in his product, even if he has to lie to himself
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“Just don’t understand when the developer knew they would not/could not build as planned (early 2004), why all monies paid as deposits in 2003 were not returned immediately.”
Probably because such income funds other developments and site acquisitions, otherwise where would the funding come from?“There is no other word for it other than fraud from the day the developer knew they would never build.”
Maybe, but try taking it through the Courts to prove “fraud”, if you can afford to fund the legal action that is.“Here we are in 2007 and they’re still holding on to some of these monies, riding on the back of long/delayed court hearings. Then they automatically appeal, dragging it out longer.”
Equally as annoying is that it is always possible, even where all consents are in place, that a delay of 1 or 2 years is planned into the project.
Simple sums. Say a development of 500 units @ 150.000€ x 25% deposit = 18.750.000€ they sit on for 1 year, with money on deposit or invested. Say @ 5% is not far off 1.000.000€ per year just to sit on your money. Assuming a land cost of 0€ as funded from another development.
But even today people are fallingn for it.
The new dream home of 150.000 1 year building and 2 years late @ 5% turns into 173.000€ + -
mg – agree with you on all points.
Re. first paragraph, we know why they are happy to hold onto monies (cashflow), my comment of “Just don’t understand…” was from the justice/legal point of view, how they are allowed to get away with it for so long.
If I sold cars for a living, you paid me for one but I told you after banking your money that I couldn’t deliver it and refused to return you your money – after being reported to the police, wouldn’t I be ‘done’ for fraud/embezzlement with no hesitation? Seems the property business has different rules though don’t see why or any difference to the car example. -
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“If I sold cars for a living, you paid me for one but I told you after banking your money that I couldn’t deliver it and refused to return you your money – after being reported to the police, wouldn’t I be ‘done’ for fraud/embezzlement”
Possibly if they couldn’t deliver the goods full stop, but many properties are delayed completion (delivery of goods), so that is possibly a way out and to stall having to refund.
“Seems the property business has different rules though don’t see why or any difference to the car example”
But we are now back to the scenario that many would not by a car “off-plan” when at design stages, and not tested to see if it complies to standards, yet will buy a property “off-plan”, maybe without any consents and as not completed, no guarantee that it complies with standards, (which costs puch more money).
If you read many threads on such matters, despite it costing the purchaser either through loss of interest, or interest being paid on their loan, when there is a delay announced, in some instances 3 years, they seem to shrug it off and claim it is worth the wait.
WHY? -
@mg wrote:
…..when there is a delay announced, in some instances 3 years, they seem to shrug it off and claim it is worth the wait.
WHY?I think most just believe re. delays their hands are tied, they’ve come too far to ‘go back now’ and feel there is damn all they can do about it but wait. A preferable option than the expense/stress of court… and the developers know it.
Often the stringing-along re. delays is in 6 monthly phases so the purchaser always feels ‘it will be soon now, not worth going ‘legal’. Until the doo-doos hits the fan and the penny drops as in the case I described.When all is said and done, it is not justifiable (and shouldn’t be legal) to be able to hold on to people’s money when they know they won’t be providing the goods. There should be something legal in place for quick resolution to this situation – not a long dragged-out-in-court-with-appeals scenario as is going on at present.
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charlie/mg
charlie wrote
”I think most just believe re. delays their hands are tied, they’ve come too far to ‘go back now’ and feel there is damn all they can do about it but wait. A preferable option than the expense/stress of court… and the developers know it. ”
this is exactly the point, most people know what a sham the court system in Spain often is. The thought of going through that to try and get your deposit back verses waiting a while longer looks like a no contest to many people. I feel it comes back to the ‘common sense’ thing again. If your appartment for instance is more than a few months late, or at any stage of the build, it’s not conforming to your contract, then ‘common sense’ says you should not have to honour your side of the contract, as the developer for what ever reason has broken theirs. How much ‘common sense’ does it take to know this the only right way?…….and then to rub salt in the wound by the developer being allowed to appeal when you have eventually won a black and white case is just utter madness. And these are the people we have to rely on for justice?????
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“I think most just believe re. delays their hands are tied, they’ve come too far to ‘go back now'”
Yes OK, but why, why, why, despite all the media rteport and places for information such as this, are people still flying out on viewing trips and signing up?
Don’t people learn from the mistakes, unforunate experiences, losses, of others. For that there can be no excuse, but probably in 12-18 months time, they will still complain and expect sympathy.
Those who may have signed up say 3, 4 or 5 years ago, may have the excuse of ignorance, but today????? -
mg
yes, i quite agree, there’s no excuse with the amount of info’ about now. Having said that, there is still no more justification for con-men telling lies, and getting away with it, or a courtroom that doesn’t use common sense, than ther was several years ago!. Cheats at all levels should be punished as cheats, now as then. If they had been dealt with in the right way in the first place, i doubt Spain would be in quite the mess it is now? At least the bad dealings are out in the open now, so will hopefully force change for the good?
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@mg wrote:
……WHY?
@mg wrote:
why, why, why….
mg – the name of this thread is “What if” not “Why”, please stay on topic. 😉
I have to correct something I wrote earlier so as not to give a false picture. 😳
I wrote: What if…..justice was as fair and swift in Spain as it was in Greece this week.
Last night I was talking to the person who had the problem with the cement man and asked him how long it took for the whole thing to be brought to court. His answer was two years!
So it seems justice speed-wise in Greece is about the same as in Spain, or in fact as others have written before, almost anywhere else in the world including UK. But then our case in Spain took about 8 months from beginning to end – so it’s all just a ‘lottery of luck’? -
But then our case in Spain took about 8 months from beginning to end – so it’s all just a ‘lottery of luck’?
I think this was because it was in the “early days” of the corruption scandal. The scale of things had not fully come to light and cases were only just being taken to the Courts. The Courts were not clogged up like they are now.
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charlie
i have several freinds in the UK building trade. Although i’m sure there are still many problems, the rules and regulations nowadays are pretty strict. Building inspectors check every step, and if at any time they are not happy, they won’t sign of that stage untill it’s put right. Same with planning consent, very much to the book these days, which can be a pain in the neck for those involved, but must be better than the alternative!. ‘what if’ they adopted these rules in Spain, as well as the other developing Euro hotspots, as some sort of minimum Euro standard?, how many cases would even reach court?…….or have similar regs/rules always been in place i wonder, and just not applied due to the brown envelope/corruption situation?
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Hi Goodstich
I think as corruption was so thickly woven in Spain and the main problem being illegal licences, even if the inspectors were ‘straight’ their job would be to ‘inspect’, not check on the building licences.For me the bottom line in all this is that all developers with land with permission to build, even if they bought the land with an existing b/l – if that permission went against the Junta’s PGOU 1986 plan they should know it wasn’t legal. Regardless of “well, everyone is doing it”. They would know the b/l was obtained through bribery, even if they personally didn’t do it. The dragon has finally turned round to bite them, and they are crying “Innocent”! Well tough, they knew full well the corruption involved in obtaining these licences that went against the ’86 plan.
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mg
i think we all agree on the ‘not buying with your head buried in the sand ‘ attitude, but if you could try at least to show some sympathy for those (naive, stupid, whatever you want to call them?), who have been screwed by low life liars, it would look less like you are being morsh harsh on the the innocent parties than the guilty ones!
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I thought my comment “Don’t people learn from the mistakes, unforunate experiences, losses, of others” segregated the unfortunate from the fools?
I must say though that your comment “screwed by low life liars” isn’t unique to Spain and its property market. Look at the current con in UK with digiboxes, where the elderly are being cheated and robbed. It is a fact of life, whatever the Country and whatever the business. There will always be con merchants and crooks, it is a case that people need to be more streetwise.
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Agree
Didnt the majority of the U.K estate agents have their fingers well into the pie of the Spanish property market.
They were amongst the worse as far as low life was concerned as they used the weakness,many have in looking to trust or listen to advice and who better than a home grown company.
They set you up with the so called independent solicitor and grabbed their
7 to 10 % commisions alongside the rest.Frank 8)
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mg
ah, now i see, so according to you, it’s the elderly’s fault for being ‘cheated and robbed’ as you put it, for not being street wise. Well you’re not alone, i’m sure many agents, developers, and even digibox retailers share your attitude!!
frank
yes, couldn’t agree more about the UK agents, they really are amongst the worst of the scum, and have done exactly what you said.
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“according to you, it’s the elderly’s fault for being ‘cheated and robbed’ as you put it”
If you believe it, so be it.
You may have been what you considered conned, which has left you with an attitude of always looking to blame and always looking read into something, something that is not there.
Really sad and you may be better off putting your financial losses behind you and concentrating time on making back the lost money.
It is my opinion that your continued comments on Spanish Law is wrong, Spanish Solicitors are wrong, etc., etc., does not get the “sympathy” you so yearn.
Be they right or wrong, the laws which were in place in Spain until now, were the laws agreed in that Country and which you bought or attempted to buy into.
In every Country there is good and bad. In UK there are good and bad lawyers. There are good and rogue builders.
It is not only Spain.
Before being criticised for not keeping to the thread. What if people realised they were gullible, would that help in the future?Regarding “Didnt the majority of the U.K estate agents have their fingers well into the pie of the Spanish property market” you are obviously talking about the many iffy and unregistered agents and not the many reputable, and registered agents?
Yes, there is the good and bad other than in Spain. -
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mg
mg wrote
”You may have been what you considered conned, which has left you with an attitude of always looking to blame and always looking read into something, something that is not there.
………no, mg, not ‘considered’ conned, but liked many others ‘CONNED’, and the the sooner you accept that, the better, otherwise you look very foolish indeed. What rubbish, saying i’m looking to blame, and reading something that is not there. I’m calling a spade a spade. Something you clearly refuse to accept, because you would rather blame the victims than the scum bags we know about. You have made it quite obvious on who’s side you stand.
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OK, what if we all call a spade a spade.
“………no, mg, not ‘considered’ conned, but liked many others ‘CONNED’, and the the sooner you accept that, the better”
So they held a shotgun to your head to get you to sign and part with money?
It can be said that there is now more publicity, but many with sense didn’t listen to the sales talk even 10 years ago.
Many, many, many, got caught out in the time share scandal in the Canaries. Thought they were getting a bargain. Pressure selling yes, but the punter had the choice of putting pen to paper or walking.” otherwise you look very foolish indeed”
To the likes of those who have lost money maybe.
So who is the fool, I don’t recall saying I had bought off-plan and yet have nothing to show for it.“you would rather blame the victims than the scum bags we know about”
So if they were “scumbags”, I assume that you could not determine that in the first, it took them to take your money before you became wise.
Remember, if someone knocks at your door and asking for entry for whatever the reason, don’t go on face value, unless you want to lose out and call them “scumbags” later.“You have made it quite obvious on who’s side you stand”
I would hope so. I am on the side of the law of the land and believe that in majority of instances, it takes 2 to tango. One to con and one to fall for it.
I know the conman is the villain, but if someone cam up to me in the street and asked for 1000 cash, I would say no. If someone armed with a gun asked the same, then I would feel I had good reason to hand over.
Is it greed, rose tinted glass, or what then people rush to give their monet away after viewing a couple of plans and models.
As I have asked before, WHAT IF a car salesman asked for 50K for a car that was at design stages, would hoards be rushing to part with their money? -
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mg
well at least we agree the conman is the villain!. All i ask is that they recieve the punishment that fits the crime, and the victims are compensated, again in a way that fits the crime.
Cheats are still cheats by any other name and the quicker we can get rid of this low-life, who cause so much misery the better.
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“the conman is the villain”
Never a disputed matter.“All i ask is that they recieve the punishment that fits the crime, and the victims are compensated, again in a way that fits the crime”
Compensated by who. Many developers are the equivalent of Ltd., companies in UK, formed for one specific development only and if there are no funds, it is unlikely that any challenges through the courts will be of benefit.
In UK, ever tried to get compensated from a company that folds? (try talking to people that paid for large items of furniture and never received onl last year).
Are you expecting that a Governmenent should pay?“Cheats are still cheats by any other name”
Yes, and the gullible are the gullible, and greedy the greedy, “by any other name.“the quicker we can get rid of this low-life, who cause so much misery the better”
Agreed and the quicker we educate the gullible, the better.
The greedy, well they always chase a quick buck so if they have suffered financially, it is a gamble they took. -
@mg wrote:
OK, what if we all call a spade a spade.
I can do that!
@mg wrote:
“you would rather blame the victims than the scum bags we know about”
So if they were “scumbags”, I assume that you could not determine that in the first, it took them to take your money before you became wise.
Remember, if someone knocks at your door and asking for entry for whatever the reason, don’t go on face value, unless you want to lose out and call them “scumbags” later.And that comment interests me more than anything. No disrespect to those that have been conned or failed to get justice but the flattery and deceit was obvious.
I was one day in a bar with a corredor and I was bitching about one woman and complaining that I found her stupidity offensive. The corredor responded that she couldn’t be too stupid as she had recently bought 4 off plan properties.
Now, until this day I don’t know whether the corredor meant what he said, had convinced himself that Spanish property purchases were a sign of intelligence in themselves, or whether he had a momentary lapse and thought that he could persuade me that buying was a wise decision.
However, I do know that many people did think that buying was an intelligent thing to do and their demeanour reflected this. It’s they that I have a sneering contempt for. They remind me of an Essex girl jumping into bed with the first man who tells her that she has a touch of class about her.
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mg
leaving aside for a moment, the innocent buyers who you feel got what they asked for often being no more than trusting or naive decent people, (what a nice chap you are?)……..compensation in some form is very possible for some of the larger developers involved in many of the scams. Some of those have many properties than can be used for payment through an embargo. This secures property at least until the court ruling if the scum bag goes belly up while the case is ongoing.
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If I can find the time – this needs to be reported to Trading Standards or someone ❗
Quote:
‘Spain’s developers are respectable and experienced, many being stock-market-listed companies.
As a low-risk market, Spain is looked on favourably by mortgage lenders.’
http://www.spanishpropertyshow.info/Investors.aspx -
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goodstich44
Your naivety of the way companies are formed to protect their own interests, that foreign Countries laws differ to UK, is such, that I am not surprised, although sympathise, with your obvios loss of funds.“form is very possible for some of the larger developers”
And the smaller developer?“I just think they are agents”
If you consider I am an agent, I would take that as an insult. Is it based on your ignorance, lack of education, or just stupidity? -
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“Unfortunately Frank you do meet people like Mg on forums”
True, there are some who still speak the truth and says it as it is and not what some want to hear.“They always claim to be informed and “educated””
What silly person claims to be educated. Those who do, usually aren’t.“He is an agent…which one do you think he works for?”
Silly girl, don’t you realise that agents and education are so far apart, they should not be mentioned in the same paragraph, unless that is they are Chartered. -
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m.g
Chartered estate agents ?
What planet are you on,you insult others and object when your put in your place.
Think yet again you will be going away with a sore nose. 😉
Inez,please forgive this ignorance,I think your clever so dont you fret and dont you let this statement drive you to drink 😀Frank 8)
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“What planet are you on”
Earth and Country being UK.
“Chartered estate agents”
No, as you will be fully aware, numerous reputable large and small agents in UK are Chartered Surveyors and/or have Chartered Surveyors in their employment. Or can I assume that you are just used to dealing with the sales agencies as advertised on TV and tabloids, if so, you get what you pay for. -
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Dear O Dear m.g. 😉
Think that this really does show the complete lack of reality and understanding of this planet.
If you feel think that all or most of domestic estate agencies are chartered
surveyors then thats fine by me :)Bless. 😉
If you think that unless every estate agent is a chartered surveyor then they must be thick then ,o.k by me. 🙂 😕 😕 😕 😕 😕
Think that your attitude towards many leaves alot to be desired, perhaps with the logic you are showing here may I suggest you read your future postings before you post instead of embarassing yourself and upsetting genuine people. 🙂Frank 8)
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mg wrote
No, as you will be fully aware, numerous reputable large and small agents in UK are Chartered Surveyors and/or have Chartered Surveyors in their employment.
Whilst I think you are all just feeding mg’s “fun time” by responding to his/her posts, the above statement is correct. He/she did not say every estate agent is a chartered surveyor.
At the end of the day, what does it matter? An EA is an EA, no matter how you dress them up. Just another thing to argue about. 🙄
Don’t waste time responding to abusive comments.
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Justfrank – due to obvious abusive comments by that naighty person mg, I have had to calm myself down with copious amounts of the red stuff! (never need too much of an excuse anyway)
Would just like to point out that in my ever so useless 23+ years of being in the property busines from actually working on the building sites – therefore seeing property from the inside out – to attending UK auctions with my then boss, running his North London estate agency, doing valautions for the agency I was running under the ‘arm’ of my boss an RICS chartered surveyor WHO, I MUST POINT OUT, TOOK THE WHOLE COURSE AND EXAMS BY WRITTEN CORRESPONDENCE COURSE, THEREFORE NO ACTUAL PRACTICE NECESSARY, although I reckon that MUST have changed recently?? (oh and mortgage brokerage, and 2 years legally qualified Ilex member), that whilst on the sites, and with the builder selling the property, bank valuers would come around to survey it. Amazing how little they knew and how little they uncovered.
I am SURE things will have changed in that time, but do not fall into the trap of thinking letters after ones name means you know anything at all!
ps – dont really consider myself a real estate agent anyway – Im far worse than that! 😆
Back to the bottle now to cure the hangover, then lunch on the beach meethinks – thatll teach me to come into the office!!!!!!!!!!!!
Have a great weekend everyone, Bank hol here in SPain today! XX
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