Spanish property scams in perspective

This topic contains 27 replies, has 15 voices, and was last updated by  Anonymous 9 years, 7 months ago.

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  • #55377

    Anonymous
    Participant

    I always thought that the Spanish property business, make that the overseas property business, was unique for its concentration of sharks, con artists, villains and scoundrels. But it turns out their scams were child’s play compared to what’s going on now with the bankers and their bonuses. In a roundabout way, bankers are taking billions of dollars/pounds/euros provided by tax payers and using it to pay themselves record-breaking bonuses. This has to be the biggest scam in history, aided and abetted by the feckless government, of course (the politicians are also stealing us blind).

    As you get older you realise that, where there’s money and/or power, there are no values. It’s all hypocrisy and humbug. The Spanish property business ain’t so unusual after all.

    A nice, cheerful post to get the day going.

    Mark

  • #95935

    Anonymous
    Participant

    Got that right.
    Most of them wouldn’t spend a moment to help their neighbours either.

  • #95936

    Anonymous
    Participant

    exactly what i was saying before i got shot down, just another form of corruption

  • #95938

    Anonymous
    Participant

    What I don’t understand is why the media are now gleefully digging up the dirt on anyone and everyone that they can. Why now when corruption and duplicity has been with us ever since we first formed societies?

    What’s happening now is that, as far as the ordinary man in the street is concerned, all bank employees and MPs are conning society; lawyers, judges and the police are corrupt, social workers are all incompetant and the clergy are not to be trusted with our children, which is simply not the case.
    Looking back over the past year or so it seems to me that the media exposés have quadrupled.

    Are we being manipulated?

  • #95939

    Anonymous
    Participant

    mark

    whilst I fully agree the bank situation is very wrong, to say the scams going on in Spain are ‘childs play’ in comparison, is not only foolish, but downright insulting to all those who have been so badly cheated.

    On your Power/Money point, compared to Spain there are huge moral values in the UK property industry as you well know. How many have been cheated while buying property in the UK??

    Both subjects are very wrong, but to try and ‘big up’ Spain because you feel their scandal might be smaller by degree than the banking scam really is clutching at straws and showing real signs of denial. I expected better of you.

  • #95940

    Anonymous
    Participant

    The basic human needs ” Food, cloth and shelter ” We dont have to live with a Banker.

  • #95943

    Anonymous
    Participant

    Goodstich

    You’ve said much the same thing about 1,443 times.

    Banging on about it here is not going to undo what is done, and it’s not going to get you justice. But it does make your contribution to this forum rather monotonous.

    Mark

  • #95944

    Anonymous
    Participant

    mark: I do have to disagree with your last post.

    There is no comparison betweem the Spanish property scandals & what is happening in the banking world. Of course, the sums involved in the banks are much greater than the property situation but to insult goodstich is taking things too far.

    The banks have certainly taken advantage of the Uk taxpayer, & our stupid government has allowed that to happen.

    In Spain however, peoples LIVES have been ruined & their homes destroyed by corrupt local councils/agents & lawyers. I don’t see that happening in the UK.

  • #95945

    Anonymous
    Participant

    for gods sake wake up and open your eyes do you really need it spelt out to you.

  • #95946

    Anonymous
    Participant

    the game maybe slightly different but the scandals are the same here as anywhere else. call it corrupt or what ever you want, but it adds up to the same thing. the majority lose out to the few in power.

  • #95950

    katy
    Spectator

    @goodstich44 wrote:

    mark

    whilst I fully agree the bank situation is very wrong, to say the scams going on in Spain are ‘childs play’ in comparison, is not only foolish, but downright insulting to all those who have been so badly cheated.

    On your Power/Money point, compared to Spain there are huge moral values in the UK property industry as you well know. How many have been cheated while buying property in the UK??

    Both subjects are very wrong, but to try and ‘big up’ Spain because you feel their scandal might be smaller by degree than the banking scam really is clutching at straws and showing real signs of denial. I expected better of you.

    I agree Goodstich, clearly Mark is making an effort to change the focus of the forum which is very negative (not suprisingly!!) The hard fact is there is no “insight” into the spanish property market…no-one is interested in buying except maybe a few fools and dreamers…it’s sell, sell 😥

  • #95953

    Anonymous
    Participant

    Katy

    the reply from mark was no surprise. A similar attitude to mark’s on the current situation is I’m sure shared by many people, hence the problems are often still not being dealt with, despite the good work of those doing their best to raise awareness. Until the majority of people ”bang on about it” not only on here, but of course to those in positions that should be able to force change, then being in a sort of denial will probably mean little or at best very slow change I feel.

    We all know about corruption throughout the world, but surely what we are most concerned about on this site, is with the current Spanish property industry and how people who have bought in Spain are dealing with the current situation and the action needed to force change to a system that’s clearly wronged so many and has damaged the costa’s so badly in many ways.

    As long as people would rather deflect blame, deny how serious the situation is for many, or prefer to highlight other areas of concern, in other countries, then the ugly facts of Spain’s property industry are likely to stay that way!

  • #95954

    Anonymous
    Participant

    Katy, you are quite wrong, on several fronts.

    The focus of this forum is Spanish property and I’m not trying to change that. But I would like to see more balance. This forum has become narrow minded and one sided. It is relentlessly negative, which is the main reason why it now offers little insight (and puts off many people with something positive to contribute who can’t be bothered because of the aggro they will get).

    You pontificate about ‘the market’ and ‘hard facts’ but how much do you really know beyond your street? What continuous research and property visits around Spain do you base your sweeping statements on? What about upmarket sea-view homes in Ibiza? Top end plots in Mallorca? Masias in the Costa Brava? Flats in the Born in Barcelona? Luxury villas in La Moraleja and designer flats in Chueca? Traditional stone houses in Galicia, Cantabria and Asturias? Detached properties in La Peña in Tarifa? Fincas in Extremadura? Hunting estates in Cadiz? Do you know for a fact that nobody is buying these things today? I’ve been doing a lot of market research all over Spain recently, and there’s a lot more going on than you think. Of course the heat has gone out of the market, and prices and transactions are down, but there are plenty of buyers getting great deals today.

    And if you are right that now is just sell, sell, then smart investors should be looking to buy, buy. When it’s all buy, buy, that’s when you want sell, sell. Isn’t that what you’ve done in the past, and didn’t it work for you? Be fearful when others are greedy and greedy when others are fearful advises Warren Buffett, and I’d go with his advice. In this buyer’s market I’m starting to see really good opportunities all over Spain, from Lanzarote to Ibiza, that I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend.

    Of course there are also large segments of the subprime market all over the country that are dead and doomed. That stuff should never have been built in the first place. But I bet most people who come here aren’t interested in that anyway. They want to know about the market for attractive properties in great locations for good prices, outstanding property, interesting property.

    None of which is to deny the terrible injustices that have gone on and are going on, nor the problems and risks. They have been given full and abundant coverage in this forum and my blog. But this forum is not only about them.

    Just to clarify, ‘child’s play’ in my original post referred to the sums of money involved. I should have made that clearer. I should have said something like ‘peanuts in financial terms’. I hoped to draw discussion on the bank bonus issues – I was just curious what people in this forum thought . An inappropriate discussion for a Spanish property forum perhaps, and I admit that the way I tried to link it to Spanish property (to make it relevant to the forum) was rather feeble, but the last thing I expected was to be patronised and berated for talking up Spain.

    Goodstich, I know your case, and I know you have every reason to be furious about the way you have been treated and denied justice. I genuinely sympathise with you, and if it was up to me you would have your money back with interest tomorrow. But it’s not up to me, and sorry, but you don’t have the right to turn every post in this forum into a rant about your problem.

    Mark

  • #95955

    Anonymous
    Participant

    mark

    you say you are sorry for those wronged, but I’m not getting that from you anywhere near as much as talking up the Spanish property whenever you get a chance, and trying to find balance where there is very little at present.

    Perhaps we’ve both made it clear where our priorities lie?

  • #95956

    Anonymous
    Participant

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1243586/If-come-bulldoze-villa-chain-inside-die-Spanish-dream.html

    Mark, however much you may want to sweep the negative path that flows through this forum under the radar, the above article in todays Mail shows that negative stories are still very much prominent in the media. Most people reading it will not be thinking about the precise areas in Spain you talk about when they read these horror stories. They just see the word “SPAIN” and will probably regard all of Spain as being corrupt to the core. Whilst I recognise that there are people who live in other parts of Spain, the Costas have been 99% topical on this forum. I think you have enjoyed the popularity of this forum when the s*** hit the fan re the corruption debacle. Now you want to change its content. The hard facts are that 5+ years down the line peoples lives have been ruined by the theft of their money by corrupt Spanish authorities and 5+ years down the line they are no closer to seeing justice. I know of people who have won their Court cases, the money paid into the bank and over 6 months on have still not received it from the Procurator!
    I also, think your attack on Goodstich is unfair and unwarranted. As you have told me often enough, it’s an open forum. Take the bad with the good. I’m sure, as we “speak” you are preparing an article on “The other uncorrupt side of Spain” 😉

  • #95957

    petej
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    I agree Goodstich, clearly Mark is making an effort to change the focus of the forum which is very negative (not suprisingly!!) The hard fact is there is no “insight” into the spanish property market…no-one is interested in buying except maybe a few fools and dreamers…it’s sell, sell 😥

    Very sweeping statement, I would not consider myself either a fool or a dreamer, for me the main two things Spain has is weather and journey times from the UK and as far as I know none of that has changed. This forum and others gave me some very useful information and did indeed give me an insight into Spanish property

    It’s a fact that people are still buying property in Spain and with the current economic climate the people that can still afford to buy cant be all dreamers and fools, these people will know what has gone on and is going on in Spain, the facts will be that they will buy because they feel it the best thing for them to do at this time. It may not meet your requirements to be of sane mind but it doesn’t have to, its there life and there money.

  • #95959

    Chris M
    Participant

    @Claire wrote:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1243586/If-come-bulldoze-villa-chain-inside-die-Spanish-dream.html
    think your attack on Goodstich is unfair and unwarranted. As you have told me often enough, it’s an open forum. Take the bad with the good. I’m sure, as we “speak” you are preparing an article on “The other uncorrupt side of Spain” 😉

    I don’t think Goodsitch should take Mark’s comment so much to heart, he has mentioned 1,444 times now his personal despair, it is awful, but it is not helpful to have it mentioned in a few lines on hundreds of threads.

    I don’t think Mark is talking up the market either, he is in the middle actually, but for goodness sake, of course there are people buying, of course there are increasingly better and better deals actually coming forward and happening, and you can’t just go on ad infinitum about the negative aspects, over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again!

    It’s boring, we get the picture, we know the story, the question is: Is the story now changing? What is happening now?

  • #95960

    Anonymous
    Participant

    and you can’t just go on ad infinitum about the negative aspects, over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again!

    Oh yes we can, Chris! 😆 (and do 😉 )
    It may be boring if you are not a victim of the theft, fraud & injustice. Believe me it’s a whole different picture if you are. Battles were not won sitting on your a*** doing (and saying) SFA.

    PS.
    Just read the excellent open letter from Michael Cashman to P Zapetero, posted by Suzanne,

    At the last count the European Parliament’s Petitions Committee has handled over 15,000 petitions and letters flood into my office on a daily basis.

    Negativity has reason to exist on a Spanish Property Forum.

  • #95961

    Anonymous
    Participant

    Here we go again! My sleeping giant has been awakened after being totally turned off by many postings of late.

    Thank you Mark for your efforts to provide food for thought and inject some positivity into the forum. I suspect that human nature being what it is – some individuals will be virtually unable to find any positive responses to the Spanish situation.

    I too have suffered at the hands of unscrupulous people. Got my fingers burnt in Almanzora but have long since moved on beyond that. I believe that life is too short to dwell on the negatives.

    I guess that links to corruption will still be overidden by the overarching quality of life in Spain that is affordable for those who seek it. This is the one reason why Spain will continue to act as a magnet for other Europeans (not necessarily the British) to visit and buy or rent property. The medium/long term future may be brighter. The details of corruption and deceipt are being widely publicised and transparent. At long last there are signs that there is movement – albeit slow and hestitant in areas – to redress the balance.

    I am not dismissing any person who has been a victim of the wrongdoings. I empathise with their situation. However, I don’t feel that casting aspersions on everything Spanish will help their cause any further. They already have a number of organisations fighting their corner.

    We all know that tabloid headlines are not to be taken completely at face value. To assume that people reading articles which focus on the “seamy” side of Spain are so blinkered in their approach – that they apply this Spain wide – seems quite patronising. Are we to assume that Soho is representative of life all over London! ❓

  • #95962

    Anonymous
    Participant

    Are we to assume that Soho is representative of life all over London!

    Quite possibly! 😉

  • #95963

    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well I’m obviously missing something! Wasn’t that way when I left Cheyne Walk 6 months ago! 🙄

  • #95964

    Anonymous
    Participant

    Cheyne Walk!!!!!!!!!!! No wonder you can afford to write off /move on from your losses. ❗

  • #95967

    Anonymous
    Participant

    @mark wrote:

    I’ve been doing a lot of market research all over Spain recently, and there’s a lot more going on than you think. Of course the heat has gone out of the market, and prices and transactions are down, but there are plenty of buyers getting great deals today.

    Mark

    I’ve have buyers queuing up after some villas here on the Costa de la Luz, but none of them can get a mortgage, sell their own property, so it’s stale mate. You have the select few, many over seas owners who are prepared to reduce the price significantly yet the Spanish, increase their price and want more money for a 70m 4 bed apartment with no outside space or communal areas than a 3 year year old villa of 160m2 on a plot of 1000m2 and on a golf course.

    Until the Spanish wake up and I mean the Govt, businesses and joe public etc. I can’t see anyway how Spain is to recover in the distant near future (5-10 years).

    You only need to look at what ATC staff are paid in Spain to see how screwed up the system is, only a few airports made any more in 2009, with most posting good loses, never mind looking at bankers, lets look at sorting out the rotten core in Spain.

    Ian

  • #95968

    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Claire wrote:

    They just see the word “SPAIN” and will probably regard all of Spain as being corrupt to the core.

    Reading this, there dosen’t seem to be much of Spain that escapes. 😀
    http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/165247/corruptelas/urbanisticas/ediles/
    As for the bankers, clearly it’s very very wrong, but I don’t think they have left anyone suicidal, penniless, with a demolished property.

  • #95970

    Anonymous
    Participant

    @agoreira wrote:

    Reading this, there dosen’t seem to be much of Spain that escapes. 😀
    http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/165247/corruptelas/urbanisticas/ediles/

    The list is almost endless. 😯

  • #95971

    Anonymous
    Participant

    @agoreira wrote:

    As for the bankers, clearly it’s very very wrong, but I don’t think they have left anyone suicidal, penniless, with a demolished property.

    Exactly, at last. Thank you, agoreira.

    I can’t see the point of comparing apples with pears. Yes, the banking world and the Spanish property world share in common greed coupled with the willingness to get involved in shady dealings to satisfy that greed.

    But the enormous amounts of money involved in the former does not in any way lessen the impact the latter has had on so many individuals lives, so I don’t really get this thread.

  • #95972

    Anonymous
    Participant

    Have just been reading agoreira’s link –
    forget the bankers, this link certainly puts “Spanish property scams in perspective”. They’re just everybloodywhere.

    The article says “La lista de ayuntamientos corruptos o sospechosos de cometer alguna irregularidad urbanística crece sin cesar”
    (the list of municipalities corrupt or suspected of committing any illegal development is constantly increasing).

    So Goodstich – looks like your job is far from over. Keep up the good work my man!

  • #95974

    Anonymous
    Participant

    Spain is indeed riddled with municipal corruption, much of it fertilised by the insane property boom. It is a national tragedy, and the costs will be with us for years to come.

    But this forum is not dedicated to municipal corruption in Spain, and it’s not anyone’s job to make it such.

    Mark

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