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Hello, I am new to this forum so hello all. The reason I am posting is because I own a villa in Salou, Tarragona, Spain. I had it on the market a few years back but recession hit so I decided to take it off the market to rent out as holiday rentals. I have been renting it succesfully for 2 years now. I was wondering if you could give me your honest opinion as to whether it is worth trying to sell again now or should I wait a year and continue renting? I have put it on the market again until I start getting bookings for next season, then I will obviously have to take it off the market until the summer is over as it will be rented out. It is a large villa and here is a link of it as a holiday rental so you can get an idea of size etc. The price I am looking for now is 585.000euros. Is this unreasonable? It is way under the price per square meter in the area and it is a great business as a holiday rental. I look forward to your honest opinions, as I am really struggling to get anywhere with the estate agents in Spain as none of them seem to even know what to put it on the market for. I am getting mixed information from all of them. Thanks and here is the link.
http://www.salou-villa.com -
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Out of interest, when you say its a great business as a rental, how do you work that out. Forgive me if that sounds a bit dim, but what calculation are you using?
from my reckoning, a mortgage of 500k at 3% is costing about 2500 a month, at 5% 3000. Add 1000 a month for bills and maintenance, 3500/4500, so an average of 1k a month needed in rental per week. Does it do that?
Or do I not understand how this renting game works? How does one make money, is it a reliance on the premise that house prices will rise and hence you can net some capital gains in a few years? Because seems difficult to extract any yield at that price.
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I’m with adiep on this. Whilst nobody can say for sure, the general consensus, one I happen to agree with, is that prices will continue to fall for some time. Indeed the recent Tinsa stats indicate that the rate of fall, particularly on the Costas, is increasing again. Last month they recorded a 8.7% year on year fall. Since April the figure has been running in the minus 4-5% region.
There is no doubt that to sell now you will take a hit. It will be painful. That said, think back to what you could realistically have sold your villa for two years ago (Not the asking price but what it would actually have moved for). Now take 20% off that and you’ll be somewhere around what you’ll now get. In short, those two years you have procrastinated have already cost you something in the region of 100k.
If you are going to need or want to sell any time in at least the next five years then you will be much better doing so now. Forget any idea of ‘Perhaps I can sell it in a couple of years time’.
If you decide not to sell then enjoy using the place and hopefully you’ll be able to cover some of your costs with rental income.
You’re in a tough place I’m afraid.
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@ian_ok wrote:
@jp1 wrote:
Out of interest how long have you had that website registered?
It’s been registered since 2 October 2010, why do you ask????
If you want to sell be prepared to accept offers way below your asking place, otherwise you are wasting yours and everyone else’s time
Yes I know that!!
The post has simply been placed to advertise there rental property, not simulate a conversation about whether it should be sold or not.
The poster says they have had a successful rental business for 2 years, but the website has been registered for less than 2 weeks. The post is spam.
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omg! This is not spam at all. If you look onine, it is for sale also. In answer to all your questions (or more like accusations!) I have been renting with 3 holiday rental websites for 2 years now with full bookings. The reason it has been profitable for me is because I have a “carencia” on my mortgagte for 2 years until february 2012, so I would ideally like to sell before this runs out. Plus I purchased this house and put an extremely high cash deposit down so my morgatge is not that high.
My post is completely genuine, and I am gobsmacked by some of the answers. Thankyou to those of you who have been helpful in your answers.
There are not many bookings next year as people start booking around about now, so this is why I wanted to try to sell before I get bookings if possible. I have 2 more bookings than anyone else on the same website and I can assure you I have been fully booked both years.
Any more comments are welcome but please only constructive ones. The reason I came on here in the first place is for some help, as I know it is a nightmare to sell right now. And I just wondered if anyone could see what they thought, I thought that is what this website was all about.
As I said, thankyou to the constructive answers, and anymore like that are welcome and taken on board. -
@jp1 wrote:
@ian_ok wrote:
@jp1 wrote:
Out of interest how long have you had that website registered?
Yes I know that!!
The post has simply been placed to advertise there rental property, not simulate a conversation about whether it should be sold or not.
The poster says they have had a successful rental business for 2 years, but the website has been registered for less than 2 weeks. The post is spam.
I have only just built the website you are correct, but it has been rented for 2 years now!
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@katy wrote:
Doesn’t have many rentals does it 😕
Thankyou for your comment, but if you check all the other rental properties on the website, they also have low or none as of yet, people start to book round about this time of year. Hence only 2 booking so far.
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@jp1 wrote:
@ian_ok wrote:
@jp1 wrote:
Out of interest how long have you had that website registered?
Yes I know that!!
The post has simply been placed to advertise there rental property, not simulate a conversation about whether it should be sold or not.
The poster says they have had a successful rental business for 2 years, but the website has been registered for less than 2 weeks. The post is spam.
Please check the dates on the holiday rental website to see from when I have been registered since 2007
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@brianc_li wrote:
I’m with adiep on this. Whilst nobody can say for sure, the general consensus, one I happen to agree with, is that prices will continue to fall for some time. Indeed the recent Tinsa stats indicate that the rate of fall, particularly on the Costas, is increasing again. Last month they recorded a 8.7% year on year fall. Since April the figure has been running in the minus 4-5% region.
There is no doubt that to sell now you will take a hit. It will be painful. That said, think back to what you could realistically have sold your villa for two years ago (Not the asking price but what it would actually have moved for). Now take 20% off that and you’ll be somewhere around what you’ll now get. In short, those two years you have procrastinated have already cost you something in the region of 100k.
If you are going to need or want to sell any time in at least the next five years then you will be much better doing so now. Forget any idea of ‘Perhaps I can sell it in a couple of years time’.
If you decide not to sell then enjoy using the place and hopefully you’ll be able to cover some of your costs with rental income.
You’re in a tough place I’m afraid.
Thankyou ever so much for your comments. I did have it for sale since beginning of 2007 and took it off the market end of 2007 once I started the rentals and it was getting booked up. It is advertised in various spanish websites, (Fotocasa, Habitatge, etc..) (Just key in Casa en venta en Covamar, Salou, and you will see where it is for sale) and in “El Diari de tarragona” and “LaCrida” The reason I am asking on here is I just don’t trust spanish estate agents advice as when it was on the market in 2007 some said put it on for 800.000euros while others said no more than 600.000euros, so there seems to be no structure there. From what you are saying, maybe I will have to consider keeping it for another 5 years and pay the difference once my carencia runs out. And hopefully in 5 years time things may have picked up. Thankyou
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Here is my website offering it for sale
http://villa-for-sale-spain.com/
so you can see it is not spam, I am keen to sell if it is the right time, just want some constructive advice, thankyou -
Hi Ethnatkev,
On reading some of the replies, I felt empathy for you. I will be shot down for saying this but there are some on here who have a vested interest on talking down whatever market there is in spain. Compared to some other forums I follow by far this is the most negative – of course there is truth in some of what is said also but in my opinion I don’t think the discussion is balanced. For what it is worth I had my own apartment up for sale for a while – we bought the apartment purely for lifestyle and for when we retire which is along way down the line – we were not that keen on selling as we love the location but we don’t have the mortgage in Spain and have had 3 interest rate hikes in the last year. But on saying that we started to rent it out just summer gone by and was pleasantly surprised. We have bookings over the winter and also some for next summer already and that is without any marketing our advertising! So for now we are happy to hold on and try and grow the rental and hopefully we will be able to hold on to the apartment for a long time to come. Spain is a lovely country. From my own experience we got offers on our apartment but we would have taken a very big hit and some on here will say take that hit and move on – prices won’t come back for a long time – people have less access to credit – but like any property bubble and bust they all have a cycle. In my own opinion I think you should keep renting – there is certainly a demand for good rentable properties in good locations. Best of luck
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Thankyou for your kind comments Angela, I have calmed down a bit now, I went off on one trying to prove my innocence! 😕
I know it is in Spains interest for us to sell now and quick at a loss to stimulate the market. If people like you and myself keep hold of our properties for a few more years it would not help at all, hence the negativity. (the only downfall I have found with the holiday rentals is the tax bill at a flat 24% with no deductions, nightmare! as you have to declare in Spain and not uk)
Maybe I am jumping the gun by trying to sell now and should wait until my carencia runs out and then re-review my situation. Ultimately I would like to sell but don’t want to lose out too much if I can hold out a few more years and see what happens. Thankyou and all the best with your rentals. -
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@jp1 wrote:
Ok… Hands Up.. I apologise! But with a 2 week old website you can’t blame me.
In fairness jp1 – don’t think you were the only one – and at least you are apologising but people shouldn’t always jump to conclusions. I feel sorry for this person having to explain themselves. Hope Mark is following this?
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Thankyou for your comments, I do agree, spammers are annoying, but in all fairness, this site has a “properties for rent” and “properties for sale” section anyway so I would have just posted my villa on there had I been trying to advertise. I may well put it on there though once I decide which way to go. I’m still not sure whether to put all my efforts into selling now, or just keep it for another 2 to 5 years, until it picks up a bit. (even though I will start to struggle after my carencia comes to an end) Or whether it really is going to just go downhill from here on. Any comments still welcome. The spanish estate agents are putting all their efforts into new builds and they put the second hand homes in the back of the drawer. I have asked 3 estate agents and none have come back with a definite price yet. I don’t think they even know themselves what is the selling price I should be looking at right now. I really have lost all faith in the spanish estate agents though, they are no where near as efficient as the ones in the uk. Even when I put it on the market when the market was good they were saying that large villas are difficult to sell and they were all coming in with different prices, they would all say, “well, how much do you want for it” It’s as if they just go with the price you want for the property and go from there, instead of there being a set price for it. Thanks again all
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Ethnatkev
Hi there. To help with valuation, the way we do it is to use the going local rate per sqm. Write down your plot. Deduct the built area including terraces. Whatever is left you can use 100€psqm to work out the ‘price’ for the land. Then work out the internal area of your property and multiply that by the going sqm rate for your area. For garages/storerooms/basements use 50% of build price (if they have a window, 1/3rd of not), terraces use 1/3rd. Add it all up and that should give you an approximation of bank valuation. Then deduct 40-50% and that should give you the region of the selling price.
It may not be pretty but at least you will have a point where you are opening yourself to finding a buyer. Whether or not you will accept that price – and bear in mind you will still have an offer placed on it – is up to you.
There are buyers out there but mainly lifestyle and long term investors. The speculator market has gone, most buyers are cash or if they need finance the banks tend to grab them for their own properties. Some are still getting finance but foreign buyers should count on putting 40-50% of the total price into the pot (including purchasing costs) and will have to be very clean with few buy-to-lets in their portfolios.
Good luck!
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@Inez wrote:
Ethnatkev
Hi there. To help with valuation, the way we do it is to use the going local rate per sqm. Write down your plot. Deduct the built area including terraces. Whatever is left you can use 100€psqm to work out the ‘price’ for the land. Then work out the internal area of your property and multiply that by the going sqm rate for your area. For garages/storerooms/basements use 50% of build price (if they have a window, 1/3rd of not), terraces use 1/3rd. Add it all up and that should give you an approximation of bank valuation. Then deduct 40-50% and that should give you the region of the selling price.
It may not be pretty but at least you will have a point where you are opening yourself to finding a buyer. Whether or not you will accept that price – and bear in mind you will still have an offer placed on it – is up to you.
There are buyers out there but mainly lifestyle and long term investors. The speculator market has gone, most buyers are cash or if they need finance the banks tend to grab them for their own properties. Some are still getting finance but foreign buyers should count on putting 40-50% of the total price into the pot (including purchasing costs) and will have to be very clean with few buy-to-lets in their portfolios.
Good luck!
Inez, that valuation method only works if properties are selling at the local valuation prices. If they are not, then the valuation are clearly too high.
A good way to find the price, is to keep dropping it until you start to receive enquiries. This is what you have to do in a bear market to sell any asset. Its called “price discovery” and efficient markets use it extensively – that’s why you have falling prices.
Of course, if you have a theoretical notion of how much its worth and dont care about waiting an undetermined period to sell, then use your own valuation, however true price discovery will give you the reality and sell the place a lot quicker.
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Hi Adiep, of course, something is only worth what someone else is willing to buy and there has never been any benchmarking in Spain due to the various figures around.
Im not using selling or asking prices in my method, I never have done as otherwise my business would never have got off the ground 😀 .
If you work on a rough bank val and then discount from there, it gives you a realistic figure to start with. The way I work this out is in my method which is how valuers work their prices out, not based on asking prices but the banks standard euros per sqm. This can be found on the internet or preferably by asking your local banks or estate agents if they have an actual recent bank valuation on their desk.
eg Marbella used to be around 3k euros psqm, Banus 5.5-6k psqm, estepona 2500epsqm and before you all comment this weer OLD figures, it is now a lot lower.
From that figure DEDUCT 40-50% to give a realistic asking price.
We used to deduct 30% – and the reason was this. The banks used to lend 80%, so by getting a property at 70%, you could factor in a mortgage to cover the purchase price. Cant do this now but realistically properties are actually selling at an average of 40-50% below bank vals. When you explain this to a vendor or a buyer they can see some logic at least.
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Hi Inez, fair enough, if that’s how you like it, personally I think my way is more fun, never did like maths much 🙂
To the original poster, I guess its going to be difficult to sell now at anything other than what you might think is a bargain price, probably about 350/400k would be my guess.
It may or may not be worth more, but there just isnt the buyers around, partially because banks are not lending in such abundance, but also because buyers believe that prices are still falling – which of course they are.
We also know for a fact that interest rates will rise and normally rises have an effect of killing off property transactions.
So I guess my point is, that if you want to sell, then price it to sell, otherwise sit on it but suspect its going to be quite a few years before the market reaches current levels on an upward swing.
PS. If you purchased when the GBP/EUR was 1 = 1.45 and you are converting back to sterling, then you have the benefits of a 30% move in currency to cover your euro losses.
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Hi Adiep,
I hate maths too – was never my strong point but I had to be able to back up the selling price range I gave to sellers with facts – otherwise they would string me up!!! 😆
Much easier to ask ‘what do you want for it’ and then add 25% commission to it!! (stated very tongue in cheek!! 🙂 )
Have a great weekend!
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wow, thankyou for all the help, I will read it all tonight, been out all day with the kids! Interesting about the tax, I hope it has changed as this is a hit every year as they don’t deduct anything not even the interest, in the uk they do and they also deduct things like decorating etc. So will try to find that post, thanks everyone for the help though, will have to get my calculator out! will post tomorrow, have a nice weekend, great site by the way.
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Thanks for everyones help, after reading all your posts, I think I would have to take too much of a drop in price if I sell right now, so may have no choice but to continue with the rentals for this year coming at least and re-review my situation at the end of 2011. It is frustrating as if the taxes weren’t so high, it is quite an enjoyable business once you are up and running and would consider doing it long term if all the fees weren’t so high. I hope you are right about the change in the taxes, I have started another post about that as I can’t seem to find the post you are talking about. thanks anyway.
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@brianc_li wrote:
Fair enough, that is your call.
You’ll almost certainly be looking at a bigger loss in one or two years time. Be prepared for a very long wait before things start improving.
Branc-li, it is very hard to justify taking such a hit – you would be carrying the remainder of the mortgage for a very long time also if the op did decide to sell at a loss – which is the worst of the two evils if he is getting good rentals on his property. It will be a long time in spain before prices come back – Ireland prices have fallen up to 50% and still going – it will take time here also but every property bubble/bust has a cycle and things will come round again – how long who knows!
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to sell today you have to market your property at a substantial discount (20 percent) to other similiar properties. However I believe that another 20 percent will be bottom of market. So I don’t believe it’s possible to cut ones losses now.
If you don’t need to sell then don’t, however it will be at least 3 years until prices start rising and maybe 5 or 6 years until you can sell at the market (unsellable) price of today.
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Whilst I suspect this poster is simply using this forum to market a property without cost either for rent or sale I will give him some advice which he claims to seek.
The property is ridiculously overpriced. Its worth about half that in today’s market. I think it unlikely in the coming five years anything will change to alter that situation. Its not even a very interesting house worth a premium that could extend it’s value.
If the poster claims to be renting it well and if that is true why would he offer it for sale knowing full well it will not attract any serious market interest?
If this is genuine then he should continue to obtain an income from the renting value as the most desirable financial option. Selling anything in the current market will sustain a huge loss. Leaving it on the market now will only serve to attract those buyers who believe it is a distressed sale and offer a wholesale price. -
Whilst I suspect this poster is simply using this forum to market a property without cost either for rent or sale I will give him some advice which he claims to seek.
The property is ridiculously overpriced. Its worth about half that in today’s market. I think it unlikely in the coming five years anything will change to alter that situation. Its not even a very interesting house worth a premium that could extend it’s value.
If the poster claims to be renting it well and if that is true why would he offer it for sale knowing full well it will not attract any serious market interest?
If this is genuine then he should continue to obtain an income from the renting value as the most desirable financial option. Selling anything in the current market will sustain a huge loss. Leaving it on the market now will only serve to attract those buyers who believe it is a distressed sale and offer a wholesale price. -
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I will explain myself yet again in short. I tried to sell in 2007, the the market crashed, so I rented to cover costs.
I have a carencia on my morgatge until 2012. If I could sell now I would, that is why I came on here. To ask for some independent advice from people in the same boat as me who are not estate agents.
Everyone I know who owns a property in spain wants to sell, but who wants to take a 50% loss?, or should I say , who can afford to do that and then owe the difference to the bank???!!!! It would be madness, so I will have to cut my losses and continue renting
until end of 2012 and then I will see what happens. If it has dropped even more then I will continue to rent and try to cover the repayment side of the mortgage as best as I can.
Please stop accusing me when you just don’t know. If is offensive to be honest. Especially when you also feel the need to make judgement on the property, I never said it was an “interesting” house. It is a villa, and yes it is in a prime location in central Salou. And properties in Salou in that urbanisation, were, prior to the crash, highly sought after. Obviously no where is sort after now! And I think it is a lovely villa even if you don’t, so does everyone who has rented it!
The value per square meter (according to bank figures) is well over 2000 euros. So when I put it on the market I based it on that and “reduced” it per square meter to see what happens, as the estate agents figures varied a lot from one to the other, so I had to guess. That is why I thought I would come on here for some friendly advice! Phew , this is hard work….As I said before, I pay to advertise to rent it out and it does get fully booked in the summer. I will even put it on here if I can on the rental section, but I was waiting to make one of the biggest decisions I have had to make for a while. Any way, anyone in my situation will understand, it is not a nice place to be in right now, It has actually been hell for the past 3 years worrying about it all, sometimes you need to get opinions especially when you have to rely on spanish estate agents! (I am half spanish by the way and have lived half my life in spain so I do know a lot about the spanish mentality, before anyone jumps on me for saying that!
Again, thankyou to all who have helped. I really do appreciate it. By the way I am a woman not a man. -
If you seek an independent and critical view of market conditions for your property on this forum then do not complain if the advice is not what you want to hear. The current property market in Spain is brutal. The norms do not apply. Banks and agents can give you a valuation which bears no relationship to actual market realities.
Covering your costs through renting is the only decision you can make if you are not prepared to accept a capital loss. -
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@logan wrote:
If you seek an independent and critical view of market conditions for your property on this forum then do not complain if the advice is not what you want to hear. The current property market in Spain is brutal. The norms do not apply. Banks and agents can give you a valuation which bears no relationship to actual market realities.
Covering your costs through renting is the only decision you can make if you are not prepared to accept a capital loss.Logan, it is not about whether the advice I have been given is not what I want to hear. PLEASE give me advice, that is what I am on here for. In no moment have I complained about the advice given. I am talking about the fact that you are insinuating that I am just on here to “plug” my property. Just read through from start to finish and you will see all advice given has been greatly appreciated. But what is not appreciated is unnecessary accusations. It’s just uncalled for and you are guessing at the end of the day as you do not know me or my situation.
Thankyou however for the advice you did offer after insinuating that I am probably not really asking for advice but advertising my property. As I say I have had 3 years of stress worrying what course to take and it has not been easy as I am sure all of you realise as most of you are in the same or similar position to myself. thanks anyway for the advice. -
@Fuengi wrote:
ethnatkev how exactly are you advertising your property for sale?
Hello, well, in the last two months, prior to receiving a couple of bookings, I decided to give the sale another try to see what response I’d receive. So I put it on fotocasa, habitaclia.com (both are online websites like rightmove in the uk but the spanish version) and also it is with a local spanish estate agent and a russian one. I think one of them has also added it online from what I have seen. I also put it in “El Diari de Tarragona” and “La Crida” a couple of times (local papers), but with no luck. So I thought I would do some of my own research to find out if maybe the asking price is too high, or whether I should even bother trying to sell in this climate, etc. (as every estate agent has come back with a completely different asking price) hence me coming on here.
I now realise it is obviously priced too high for the current market and as I don’t want to drop around 40% like some of you are suggesting (or I would end up owing the bank money) I will have to continue with the rentals.
Of course I would love to sell, but I just can’t afford to take that much of a hit on the asking price, as I don’t want to end up paying the bank money for something I don’t even owe for the next 10 years.
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I made a legitimate comment. So many people post web links with a question but their real motive is publicity. You protest that was not your intent and I except on face value that in your case I may have been mistaken.
It would perhaps have been better had you posted the question without the link.
Nuff said. 🙂 -
@logan wrote:
I made a legitimate comment. So many people post web links with a question but their real motive is publicity. You protest that was not your intent and I except on face value that in your case I may have been mistaken.
It would perhaps have been better had you posted the question without the link.
Nuff said. 🙂I agree and I regret putting the link on here, I just thought by looking at the villa, it would be easier to give an assesment on the price I was marketing it for. I will try to get Mark to remove the link as it has caused a bit of commotion. Thankyou however for your advice, I agree in that I should continue renting for now.
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