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Having read Marks post on the recently locked forum about a certain company being mentioned, it just goes to show that these and other prominent REAs that have royaly screwed people without the slightest bit of conscience are the first to threaten legal action when we want to return the favour!!! The truth obviously hurts but there is more than one way to skin a rabbit!
If they were reputable they wouldn’t have anything to worry about!! We can’t all be wrong about them !!
I’ve not mentioned any particular company so I hope you will not delete this post Mark. I respect your request.
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Hi Claire
Don’t know who that company is, surely not the old adversary?
However, if it’s them, they haven’t the g—-s to sue the S. Times let alone individuals they’ve screwed, in fact I’d have loved to have tested them in a proper Court. Personally they and some others are gutless and wouldn’t stand a leg against the many who could come forward.
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@Claire wrote:
Having read Marks post on the recently locked forum about a certain company being mentioned, it just goes to show that these and other prominent REAs that have royaly screwed people without the slightest bit of conscience are the first to threaten legal action when we want to return the favour!!! The truth obviously hurts but there is more than one way to skin a rabbit!
If they were reputable they wouldn’t have anything to worry about!! We can’t all be wrong about them !!
I’ve not mentioned any particular company so I hope you will not delete this post Mark. I respect your request.
these companies that have ‘screwed’ people are generally quite clever. None of their lies are ever in writing. Even with all the people that have bought in green hills, etc… these agencies can argue the developers had the licences, even the townhall said blah, blah, blah. All these agencies knew the developers were giving back-handers and knew sooner or later there would be a clamp down.
Does anyone here remember the article about an ‘international’ agency that worked in bulgaria where the salespeople claimed they were building 100 km of pistes when in fact it was only 1km, or something similar.
At the end of the day, if an agency cannot back-up what they are saying in writing, they are dodgy, because they are lying!
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😡
Bulgaria is another nightmare waiting to happen, also possibly Turkey and a few other so called emerging markets.
Many of the spiv and really dodgy estate agents including a few who are AIPP members (so you can trust them – JOKE) are high pressure selling there now, since Spain has gone kapput.
Steer well clear of the usual larger agents in these countries!!!!!!!
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We all know that agents lie, cheat, steal, and generally let the side down.
But have all these agents arrived from a different planet – or do they learn how to behave by living amongst the rest of us.
We complain about the nagging estate agent when we buy a property – but when we sell a property we are just as likely to hire him because he does nag so.
We claim to be sadly disappointed when an agent fails to disclose the full facts – but we would be very upset indeed if our estate agent told our would-be buyers about just how noisy our neighbours can be.
We complain about over-pricing, but feel that our own property – which has been on the market for six months – is fairly priced.
We tut tut about black money, but the vast majority of us leap at the chance of not paying capital gains tax or VAT. ‘When in Rome…’ we say to ourselves.
Is it possible that estate agents are just a reflection of ourselves – if not individually, then as a group.
Is it possible that we get the estate agents that we collectively deserve?
Perhaps some of the scorn we pour on agents is really an inner indignation at our own behaviour and attitudes.
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Rawlins said
”We all know that agents lie, cheat, steal, and generally let the side down”
and then said later in the post
”Is it possible that estate agents are just a reflection of ourselves – if not individually, then as a group”
Rawlins
no!, i don’t think it is possible. For the majority of people i don’t think it is a reflection of ourselves, i think the truth is closer to your first sentance, ………with exceptions of course.
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Whilst not necessarily agreeing with the wording of Rawlins Post, I do understand and agree in part with his sentiment. Of course double standards abound, and I am sure that some people with illegal builds, bad problematic properties would happily sell their problems to some other hapless souls given the opportunity, its human nature and self preservation. But hey you want agents to be honest; he is only telling how he sees it.
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@jiminspain wrote:
…… I am sure that some people with illegal builds, bad problematic properties would happily sell their problems to some other hapless souls given the opportunity, its human nature and self preservation. .
Yes, there are some people who are trying to shift their illegal properties in the hope that the buyer has a crooked lawyer like most of us have had, & facilitates the purchase. But this makes the seller as guilty as the corrupt developer & just escalates the problem, passing it on to someone else. This seller is also guilty of fraud & may find themselves later in even more trouble.
Thankfully, not everyone falls in this bracket – as I don’t agree that it is ‘human nature’ to cheat & lie; honesty & integrity are the champions of human nature.
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@Rawlins wrote:
We all know that agents lie, cheat, steal, and generally let the side down.
though as most of us should know, not all agencies are like that. I feel they are a minority, they just happen to have made money out of it.
@Rawlins wrote:
We claim to be sadly disappointed when an agent fails to disclose the full facts – but we would be very upset indeed if our estate agent told our would-be buyers about just how noisy our neighbours can be.
true. I think most people are just ‘annoyed by the definite rental incomes or future area construction. Example: plans to expand a port. If an agent is claiming that X property is a bargain because there are plans to expand the port, he/she can get copies from the townhall or go with the client. If the central gov. puts it on hold at a later date at least the agency was’nt lying.
@Rawlins wrote:
We complain about over-pricing, but feel that our own property – which has been on the market for six months – is fairly priced.
We tut tut about black money, but the vast majority of us leap at the chance of not paying capital gains tax or VAT. ‘When in Rome…’ we say to ourselves.
very, very true.
@Rawlins wrote:
Is it possible that estate agents are just a reflection of ourselves – if not individually, then as a group.
Is it possible that we get the estate agents that we collectively deserve?
Perhaps some of the scorn we pour on agents is really an inner indignation at our own behaviour and attitudes.
personally i agree. there are far too many expats down here who expected the easy life. Its why so many went into sales a few years ago. easy money.
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….well, no smoke without fire seems an appropriate phrase here.
Everyone knows there is good and bad. I think if a bit more truth and honesty was spoken by a larger number of agents, then the reputation wouldn’t be so bad. As Suzanne said ‘ honesty and integrity’ are the real champions of human nature, if you stray far from that, not many will respect or trust you.
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@Paul wrote:
😡
Were you drinking when you came up with that post?
No. Were you drinking when you read it? 🙄
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@Rawlins wrote:
Perhaps some of the scorn we pour on agents is really an inner indignation at our own behaviour and attitudes.
Think you’ve been watching too many Oprah Winfrey shows Rawlins 😆
I assure you the utter ‘scorn’ I have for my REA stems simply from the fact he told us downright lies – before the doo doos hit the fan and after.
And the only ‘inner indignation’ I have is for your behaviour in not posting your comments on the humour thread where they belong. 😉 -
Rawlins,
You are on a loser here, matey!!
It’s not worth the effort of trying to tell all those who are not in the estate agency business the lying, cheating, deception, covering-up, two-faced’ness, back-handed’ness, cheek, etc that you come across everyday as an agent.
Not to mention the incompetence and laziness of those in the legal profession and banking world that we have to try to work with.
Oh! Sorry, did I forget to mention that all the attributes listed above are not those of other agents…..?
Silly me! -
@Stewlanz wrote:
Oh! Sorry, did I forget to mention that all the attributes listed above are not those of other agents…..?
Oh……… 🙄
So, between you and Rawlins (both REA’s) we have all the blame firmly laid at the feet of purchasers, lawyers and banks etc.
Of course, all REA’s are totally blameless …… 🙂By the way, my post was to test if REA’s can take as good as they dish out without getting uppity ….obviously not.
Silly me! -
Rawlins post seems simply to pose some very pertinent questions – and not by and large make judgemental statements! I don’t personally find the post “uppity” And there are, if we are fair, good and bad REAs. It seems that most of the publicity circulates around the bad because that is what makes news. Notably a large number of the “dodgy” REAs seem to originate from the UK. Does that tell us anything?
Before anyone jumps down my throat – I do have the greatest sympathy with those who have and are still having problems through the lack of integritity of their agents. I do know what it feels like – I have been at the receiving end in Almeria. Thank goodness for a very smart lawyer!
I suspect that the motive of some Brits is to make money however possible. From my personal experience – some of our closest neighbours in Spain absolutely jump at the chance to avoid ( and do continue to avoid) paying taxes etc if they can.
There is so much advice and information around at the moment on how to avoid “dodgy” deals – perhaps in the future those REAs who rip off customers wil be less likely to survive. (Incidentally – encountered some REAs with very little integrity when buying and selling in Cyprus and in Crete.)
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Hi Charlie,
Somehow I knew you would be the first to get back!!
I wasn’t approtioning blame, I was just trying to say that the lies and the amount of deceit that we – as agents – have to hear and put up with every single day is quite incredible.
Ask any agent when was the last time a sale went through without the buyer or the seller trying to pull a fast one somewhere along the line.Of course, I KNOW that you were burned in the buying process and it was because of an agents deception…I was just trying to balance it out a little.
Neither was I trying to get agents OUT of the firing line.
That would be a case of silliness, wouldn’t it?! -
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Manyof the REA’s blame everyone & everything …but themselves. If they were competent, did their homework thoroughly on the properties they were selling, whether off plan or not, then they might know if these buildings were properly legalised with all the relevant licences and permissions in place. But that would mean they would actually have to put their brain into gear, get their a**** of their chairs and actually work for their over inflated commissions. Just too much to ask.
Please note… I said many REA’s….not all!
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😡
I fail to see why Rawlins should even try and put these crooked agents into the same pot as most buyers who get shafted by agents in Spain (and now Bulgaria etc). Both Rawlins and Stewlanz appear to be representing the agents, whereas we all know there are loads of shark agents as well as some good ones, (trouble is innocent buyers don’t know who the good ones are, and after all these years , neither do I).
What really p’s me off is the fact that many crooked agents are happy to shaft their own countrymen/women since they are often from the UK.
When I speak to people who have literally lost most or everything they have financially (often pensioners), because of blatant mis-selling (100’s of 1000’s pounds), been striped by extortionate agents’ commissions included in the price, lied from A-Z, introduced to incompetent or crooked lawyers, the list goes on and on – to compare those snakes with the buyers, is, as I said a b—-y cheek.
I can’t see the comparison at all between a few ‘dodgy deals’ as has been mentioned like saving a bit of VAT, and downright mis-selling amounting to the huge sums involved. The point is, these agents would even mis-sell to Mother Theresa if she was alive, to anyone good or bad, they don’t differentiate.
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@OliverB wrote:
Rawlins post seems simply to pose some very pertinent questions…………I don’t personally find the post “uppity“
Actually Oliver, I was referring to Stewlanz’s response – describing some of us as “lying, cheating, deception, covering-up, two-faced’ness, back-handed’ness, cheek, etc.”.
I thought to describe it as ‘uppity’ was more polite than ‘aggressive’.
It would just be nice if for once an REA would acknowledge that some REA’s fit this description as well. I’ve worked in the public sector myself, and am afraid having to deal with all sorts is just part of the job. These ‘personality failings’ have nothing to do with corrupt REA’s who knowingly lie when selling an illegal build, or introducing a client to a corrupt lawyer.
IMO.Stewart – I see from your website you have climbed Mount Kenya. For that I am dumbstruck with admiration! I’ve seen it but not climbed it and it’s big!
If you’re used to climbing such mountains, dealing with awkward clients must be a doddle. 😉 -
Hi Charlie,
I am sure you could climb Mt Kenya. It’s more a “trek” (albeit a long one!) than mountaineering!
I think forecesreunited.org.uk is organising another climb, but haven’t really checked it out yet.
But back to the subject, and in all seriousness the regulars on here know what’s what…I think that my point somewhere in all that’s been said is that “money changes everything” and this applies to a lot of buyers and sellers as much as some agents.
This forum is an excellent medium to warn of pitfalls.
Wonder how one would go down where agents list all the lies they are told every day?!
“Oh yes – the extension is on the Escritura. My bank has it. I will get you a copy” conversation repeated ad infinitum.
“We will go halves on the Plus Valia”….yeah, right!
“My 3.1m satellite dish? No, never had any problems with the Ayuntamiento”
“Utility receipts? Everything is paid up to date – it’s just that Telefonica/Inalsa/Unelco never send me any receipts.”
“Noisy dogs? No, my neighbour is just looking after it/them for a few weeks”
“The dirt track leading to my property….yeah, it’s fine. It’s actually over someone elses land, but we went to the Notary and agreed access”
“The aljibe/plumbing/electricity was renewed only last year”
“Although we are QUITE close to the airport, the planes take off in such a direction that you can’t hear them. Well, only on a Thursday…so don’t show any clients around on a Thursday will you? There’s a good lad.”
These are just some of the everyday ones…you wanna hear some of the REALLY good ones!By the way, thanks for looking at the website!
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When I look around at Spanish and British agents in my area – I can see a clear relationship between honesty and profitability.
Unfortunately, this relationship leans the wrong way. The honest agents make less than the ‘morally flexible’ agents. Objectively, it is probably true that dishonest agents are better adapted to the market and are more likely to thrive in the long-term.
Why is this? I would say:
– a lack of property sales regulation and transparency. ‘Sign here, it’s a standard contract’.
– easy market entry and exit for estate agencies. ‘We do all our business on the phone – here is my mobile number’.
– a widespread acceptance of black money. ‘Yes, it has to be in cash so the taxman won’t detect it’.
– many poorly informed and gullible ‘bargain-hunter’ buyers. ‘No you don’t need a license to build and you can save some money by not using a lawyer’.
– a generalised ‘Wild West’ mentality among many Brits. ‘You’re in Spain, mate – don’t worry. You can do things here you wouldn’t get away with back in the UK.’
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I was flicking through the glossy colour brochure of a well-known offplan sales company (clue: its name reminds you of a British nuclear deterrent) this morning and noticed the following in small print on the foot of page three.
Legal Notice: The perspectives presented here are an initial conceptual representation of the project and not definitive project plans. The appearence, design, number, and distribution given are only a guide and are not binding and are subject to modification due to technical or legal demands.
Fair warning?
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👿
I’m pretty certain most of the so called larger dodgier agents’s glossy brochures now carry all sorts of small print disclaimers.
Most of their literature including site plans and specifications, sales spiel etc, ends up way off the finished article – reason enough I believe to pull out of the purchase using a really good independent lawyer, with all monies paid returned in full.
Awful’s Brologues used to be so full of blatant lies and hype even about ‘flipping’ before completion and rental predictions, and how you can trust them since they’d been in the business for 20 years. Load of Tosh!
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I have to agree in part with Rawlins (Well I would wouldn’t I -being an agent and all). I recently was contacted by a friend of mine to sell her house. I sent her an email explaining everything I need – copy of the escritura, signed form to say she gives authorisation, copy of IBI bills etc.
The response I got back was – get me a buyer and you can have what you want.
From my understanding (and I have worked on this principle for two years at least) I have a legal if not moral obligation to provide the buyer or potential buyer with the following
Copia simple
Nota simple
All information regarding the expenses of buying a house
Proof of payment of all bills to date as well as any community fees as applicable.And I have to do that on demand. And it all forms part of the sale (and I believe is a legal requirement now but could be wrong) – when a buyer asks how much the community fees are – saying “I think they are x per year” is not the same as showing someone the previous receipt and proving how much they were.
Many buyers would believe this statement without proof, but then when they receive their first bill and it is twice as much as they were expecting – will get upset (and rightly so)
But when the client wont give the info it is like fighting Mike Tyson with one arm behind your back. .
I have since refused to take it on (as I do whenever a seller refuses to give information) I prefer to do my checks before I take on a property rather than have the problems after. However a lot of agents are probably guilty more of incompetence than down right cheating – but this can still lead you into as many problems. They may honestly believe that the plot of land they are selling you is legal and has permissions because the buyer has told them so – but because they don’t bother to check they don’t know and so they haven’t lied to you but are part of the deception and they are just as culpable.
By the way I don’t know if you are aware but an agent involved in selling a new development is as responsible for the outcome as the developer themselves – all parties in the chain are responsible for what is sold and what is delivered – I would have thought it is in an agents best interests to ensure there are licences in place, etc. JMHO of course.
My point is that whilst I agree that a lot of agents (mainly foreign but not exclusively so) will lie and cheat – there are many more who try to do their best and are hampered all round.
Whilst I am sure my friend has nothing to hide – I don’t wish to take the chance – she is leaving the area – the buyer is moving in and may be my neighbour someday – or at the very least I may see them in the market on Friday.
Honesty and integrity come from within – whether you are an estate agent or not – if you are an honest person then you will act in an honest way. If you are a buyer or seller – if you are not honest then this will not change regardless of which side of the fence you are on.
Others are just down right lied to and it is sad and should be stopped but will continue for as long as the government will allow it.
I need to go get a beer
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@vbtudor wrote:
…By the way I don’t know if you are aware but an agent involved in selling a new development is as responsible for the outcome as the developer themselves – all parties in the chain are responsible for what is sold and what is delivered
This is an interesting comment Vince; I’ve had several heated conversations about this, especially with the agents who sold me an illegal property – as they have done to thousands of people. Their response? “We sold in good faith”. But they have had no problems in amassing millions of Euros in commission on these very properties 😡
I don’t see how it is possible to make them accept the responsibility you mention ❓ How would one be able to prove these agents were fully aware of what they were selling/promoting ❓
Nearly forgot to say, missed you on the forum this week Vince.
Enjoy your beer 🙂 -
Hi Suzanne
from what I am aware they cannot get out of it by claiming good faith – it is their responsibility to check each and every detail. I have worked for 3 estate agents in the past and everyone of them insisted on seeing visually licences and permission to build, all the plans etc for new developments and ensured that what they were selling was what they sold – in so much as you can of course with a new build. But they were at leadt responsible enough to do the initial checks.
But nonetheless it is still down to the agent to check everything rather than acting in good faith. It is easy to take a commission for an easy sale – a good estate agent is the one who is there when the client gets in trouble.
The comeback is of course legal action – but then you need a lawyer willing to take on the big chains – and there are few of them not connected – so it is difficult to find.
But my advice would be to anyone looking at buying new – keep everything you have been given – any sales material is part of the contract of sale – and if you make notes of what is said and time and date it – then this can be used also (though clearly difficult to prove but more difficult to refute if the agent hasnt kept records.)
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@vbtudor wrote:
I have to agree in part with Rawlins (Well I would wouldn’t I -being an agent and all). I recently was contacted by a friend of mine to sell her house. I sent her an email explaining everything I need – copy of the escritura, signed form to say she gives authorisation, copy of IBI bills etc.
The response I got back was – get me a buyer and you can have what you want.
Interestingly, it is British sellers who are often wary of giving an agent any printed information about their property. Spanish sellers usually have the escritura and IBI sitting on the kitchen table when I call.
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@Fuengi wrote:
At the end of the day, if an agency cannot back-up what they are saying in writing, they are dodgy, because they are lying!
That goes without saying Fuengi, but why do people continue to buy these products if there is nothing in writing????
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@Paddy wrote:
That goes without saying Fuengi, but why do people continue to buy these products if there is nothing in writing????
I have no idea.
Greed? $$$ signs make people do…. inadvisable things
Ignorance? well they’ve got an office, they can’t be lying! 😕
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@Paddy wrote:
So if an ignorant greedy agent meets an ignorant greedy buyer – the buyer loses their money and the agent earns a commission. No wonder there are so many agents in Spain. 😯
not saying all purchasers are like that, nor all agents. But I know that many ‘off-plan’ purchasers fall into one or both of those catergories.
I had a conversation a few weeks back with an ex-(big ex-pat agency) salesman. Nice guy all in all, he used to concentrate in off-plans but did’nt like the hard sell. What he used to do in his own words
“I used to take them to see the off-plan, then get them back in the office, and show them the development figure. Buy now for 130.000, put down a 30% in the next month. When completed the development price will be 280.000. So before completion, they just have to sell below the development price. Then I’d give them 30 minutes to themselves. 9 times out 10 they’d they’d buy. All I had to do, was let greed do its job”
Of course this is not the only type of client. There are those that are, for lack of a better term, pressure into buying an off-plan. Probably in a similar way to time-share strategies. Please note 2 of the largest well known agencies on the CDS are founded by ex-timeshare. And a few others started up after working for those 2 agencies.
Anyone familiar with the strategy for the difficult client: “let me get the manager” (WOW the MANAGER) to explain why you’d be a fool not to buy!
of course there are also buyers that have just been plain unlucky. Either due to the Marbella scandal.
The ones that have been lied too regarding future area development. etc..
Or the ones that bought for investment and were not informent of the other couple hundred identical apartments that were also being built in the vacinity.
And those that jumped on the band wagon too late in the game..
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