February 15, 2008 at 5:12 pm #53651
Removed – Removed – thank you to all that replied
February 15, 2008 at 6:02 pm #78788InezParticipant
Hi – that sounds horrific. You would be advised to contact a lawyer who is in Spain to find out what they can do as if it becomes a criminal case here then yes you and your asset could be at risk of at the very least a fine.
You could go via a uk lawyer with contacts in Spain but do this as a matttter of urgency as the Spanish are very good at holding hearings in your absence and the worst case scenario is you get arrested somewhere in Spain on your arrival.
Good luck with it.
February 15, 2008 at 6:36 pm #78793
Firstly do take advice from a lawyer in British- Spanish law, just in case preferably in the UK.
I am not an expert on Spanish law as it seems no one really is as it varies every year and depends who one is dealing with, town hall, local government etc. After many years here it does seem the law of the jungle operates and that the “big boys ” are favoured ,ie banks and developers.
The bank cannot touch your house I would have thought but for goodness sake pay the mortgage every month even if you have to live on bread and dripping for the month. Do not fall into arrears as they will have you by you know what. Check your bank statement religiously just to make sure that the bank has n´t forgotten to charge the monthly payment. I assume the bank with which you have the mortgage is the same as you have your current account and that it debits your account each month. Also was your P60 OK or did the agent make that more attractive than it should have been?. This could lead you into trouble. Do not let your account go into the red, and as I said before check your bank statement carefully. Do you have an internet account with them? if not open one so that you can check your position every day.
Try to think of every avenue that the bank could use to put a charge on your property.
Spanish law moves very slowly and if they did try to bring a case against you it would take years to come up. Although it would be something hanging over you.
Normally I would recommend you sell the property and get rid of the mortgage just in case, the way the market is at present that is easier said than done.
I may seem cynical but I have known of things being done by town halls,developers, banks that would have lead to them being in prison anywhere else in the world.
In my experience of helping people , Spanish companies like to threaten . A friend of mine received a letter from a debt collection company representing Digital Plus one of the cable operators here asking for payment of a satellite dish they had provided some years before. The person who had contracted the satellite service was my friends wife and she had been dead for seven years and had only contracted the service
about six months before she died. I wrote to them in Spanish explaining that their client had died, enclosed a copy of the Spanish death certificate ,every month thereafter a copy of the same letter came.For two months I sent a copy of my previous reply then phoned the company and told them the position, the guy I spoke to basically said they never take any notice of replies and keep on writing , quite often the person receiving the letter gives up and pays up.
Good luck, please do take top advice from an international lawyer. Do not listen to know it alls and bar room lawyers, advice here is 2 a penny and worth less.
February 22, 2008 at 5:46 pm #79019abolexParticipant
First of all, don’t worry too much about these threatens, as doesn’t look to me the bank has many chances on going criminally after you. You have not participated in a fraud unless you got something out of it.
Fraud described in the Spanish Criminal Code has to include:
1. An action by you to damage someone else.
2. This damage must give you a profit.
3. You must know what you are doing.
In your case, even if you were paid your services for providing these P60’s, you were not giving them to the bank directly and you did not know what there were being used for.
The bank can sue criminally the clients (as they are the ones that admitted those p60’s were theirs) and the agent (probably the real fraudster, who was providing the banks with false information (knowing this was false) to obtain the mortgages which, of course, gave him a profit (the banks pay high commissions to these agents for obtaining clients).
Therefore, have someone to check your post box every now and then and, if you are called by the Court, just get some legal advice and you should be ok. Although, in my opinion, the bank will not sue you in any case.
February 22, 2008 at 9:40 pm #79032
Can you tell me if I was one of the fraudulent P60 as we never supplied any income details and obtained a 125 % mortg I have supplied my details my bank in spain La Caixa La Manga please contact me privately or via this medium both my wife and my self have separate mortg for separate appts my wife is a pensioner in UK We were told that rental and the prop value would cover all our out lay
February 22, 2008 at 9:57 pm #79033
I’m Patrick Cassidy and my wife Joy We live in Saltash on the Devon Cornwall border I run a long distance taxi Co getting people to and from any UK airport.
Both myself and my wife have taken out separate spanish mortgages through La Caixa Bank in La Manga we bought from an individual through an estate office called Eden based in la manga Sp. This is run by an english guy Tony Parkinson and his wife ?
We paid way over the top for our appartments in Ribera Beach Mar De Cristal. We were led to believe that rental income would be very easy and so we were swayed. The reason we paid more than the property was worth was to have enough money left over from the sale / purchase to pay the tax, Furniture and provide a cushion from the time to sort out a rental Co. and get enough income to cover the mortgage. We did get some money paid into our a/c but nowhere near the 80 thousand euros we borrowed over the top.
Very quickly we worked out that we were in an uphill struggle to get any income we also had a problem in that one of our appart had no water. We had paid every bill and the water co (Aquaest) would not believe that we had no water as the bills were being paid and water usage was shown but they had the meters marked up wrong and we were payng for an neibours water. it took 10 months and an age on the phone then 2 visits to spain 7 days then 11 days and still no water we had the lawyer Juan Carlos the estate agent the bank manager and the local commitee all saying that we were not getting water but the water co would not listen and finaly I took video footage and stills showing the meter missing from our water cupboard. and after a further 6 days we were told that water had been supplied to the flat no mention of the bills we had paid or any compensation and we have just about given up on it.
The other property was rented out to a mate of mine from the navy he had been living in malta and fancied a change so he lived in the G/F flat for about 7 months he is now back in the UK. So both are mt and the Exchange rate is not so good at the moment also the Mortgage rate has increased. In a nutshell we are taking a pasteing.
“What I need to know is if we walk away from this deal can we just go to the bank and hand them the keys? and if we can can the bank come after us here in the UK for any drop in value between what we borrowed and what they sell for?”
We were never asked to produce any paper work to prove an income and we are getting on wife 61 retired me 58 in feb 24th We have a mortgage in thie UK. We are Subprime but UK based as opposed to US and our property is in Spain? We are not the only ones in this boat in the Plymouth we know of around 60 people in the same situations and some of them are holding 5 or more properties in various names of their relations…..
February 25, 2008 at 10:25 am #79115InezParticipant
My goodness – how it is unfolding.
OK firstly, yes you should have been asked for some paperwork documentation even if the mortgage was a self certification one. It does sound like something fishy was going on.
Im confused a little how you effectively borrowed 125% as non residents cannot borrow more than 80% of a bank valuation. I can only think the purchase price was very low in comparision to the bank valuation and hence you borrowed 125% of the purchase price to cover your costs etc.
It works differently here to the UK – UK use comparable prices, therefore if 2 neighbours sold for 100k, then all the homes in the street will value around that price – with slight increases/decreases depending on their relative conditions and any improvements made. Here, its euros per square metre – nothing taken into consideration for views, bosch fridges or gold taps! Some leeway for quality of build and age of property.
It does sound like you were taken for a ride by the agent.
In response to your question – at the moment banks are letting debtors try to pay and are being very gently. If you hand the keys back this is what happens.
1. The bank requests the property to be possessed by the courts.
2. The property is offered in the judicial auctions for sale, the first auction (which is held at a certain time and date at the court and in which bidders send in a written bid which the judge opens and decides which bidder gets the property) is at 100% of the outstanding debt.
3. There are subsequent auction with the price dropping to 75%, then 50% then 25% of the debt. The bank/court is under a duty of care to get the best price for the property.
4. If it doesnt sell, the bank writes off the debt and the property is transferred to a banks subsidiary and they hold them to sell.
5. As you are not in Spain, at the moment its unlikely they will chase you for the amount outstanding should they finally sell it, but this is not guaranteed
If you recall the 90s UK, many people who handed their keys in and walked away were pursued many years later for the differences in the sael price and money outstanding. Banks have a limitation of time for 12 years in the Uk in which to pursue you.
Here, you would be blacklisted for credit – you can never buy again in Spain – and I would not be suprised to see debt agencies crossing the borders as they know people like yourselves will have assets in their home country
I know if a company starting to get themselves in place to do this.
It wont happen for a while but as the rpossessed stock builds up for the banks, they will ultimately have no choice.
So, think about things very carefully – you will need advice to follow what I am going to say next and do not do anything without independant legal advice, but if you hand the keys back, it may be worth you claiming bankruptcy here in Spain and possibley in the Uk to protect your future.
I hope this helps and good luck with it
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