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A question regarding mortgage defaults and the possibility that Banks may chase for any shortfall in the sale price and the outstanding mortgage in the owners own Country
What happens where the Banks have been negligent in lending on an illegal build or no habtitation licence.
In many situations corruption, the Government.Councils and Banks all shared a role .
WHY CANT A COUNTER CLAIM BE MADE .
In may cases it was they that changed the rules and in particular the habitation licence.How can they chase someone to the U.K or any other country for that matter and what views will these countries have on this whole mess in their own courts.
These are present and future situations that thousands are looking to get answered as they are in fact in a trap, unable to resolve the situation due to additional negligence of the courts and the legal system sorting the legal status of thousands of properies.
Frank 8)
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Just Frank wrote:A question regarding mortgage defaults and the possibility that Banks may chase for any shortfall in the sale price and the outstanding mortgage in the owners own Country
How can they chase someone to the U.K or any other country for that matter and what views will these countries have on this whole mess in their own courts.My opinion is that there will be so many foreigners in Spain in the situation of negative equity and mortgage defaults that the Spanish banks will not be able to chase everybody and will just take the loss.
And they deserve this as their fake valuation and negligence was the original cause of all the housing bubble mess.
Of course all of us will pay for it due to higher taxes and higher borrowing rates. But that is a fact of life, the inocents always pay.
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Hi
Good points and somehow I wonder if they would consider what the U.K media would have to say.NEWSPAPER HEADLINES
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“O.A.Ps FORCED TO SELL U.K HOME DUE TO THE CORRUPTION IN SPAIN”U.K COUPLES MADE HOMELESS AND BANKRUPT AFTER BEING CONNED IN SPAIN.
TREVOR McDOUGHNUT WOULD HAVE A FIELD DAY.
This is the worry of tomorrows U. K public that have been lied,cheated and conned by those in Spain.
Loosing the Spanish Property may be one thing but but the nightmare may just be the begining.
Now thats not like me to be negative and just have a feeling that they would have one hell of a job suceeding down this road.
Think forums like this would have one great fight to take to levels never seen before in consumer laws.Frank 8)
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Hi Shakeel
This situation regarding defaults would not just apply the the U.K media and somehow feel that Spain will HAVE to be bothered if this really hits the fan.
Of course the corrupt will not bother but feel that the whole corruption mess in legal system would make the Priors case look like a Sunday tea party if the public see people in their own counrty being evicted from their own homes.
First the Banks would have to win the case in Spain on lending on illegal builds then and if they won which courts and in which country would they be enforced.
As Claire pointed out and add. How would the Spanish Courts deal with the volume and as they appear to not be able to make judgements involving straight forward cases which we hear of everyday
IF THE BANKS WON AT COURT SURELY WE COULD DO AS THEY DO AND APPEAL
As these appeals appear to go on for 10 years, could we give them the merry go round like they have given us.Frank 8)
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Frank – Good post……it’s good being on our side of the fence, isn’t it?! Am beginning to like you more and more. 🙁
Just play them at their own game. Chased for not completing on an illegal build? Let them try. Hopefully they would be laughed out of our courts, unlike the judgements made by the corrupt wimps in the Spanish courts who won’t find for the purchaser in case it upsets their apple cart.
Now that EU funding to the tune of millions of euros is involved in the corruption mess (Lanzarote), I hope the EU will stir their lazy loins and start truly investigating/penalising the Spanish.
If they currently don’t have the legislation to do it, they should create some. Goodness knows they are experts at doing that.*Recent advice given by a MEP: “Can’t help but suggest you should start a petition”. 🙄
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Hi Frank,
As there are many facets to your postings. I have pasted your posting and respond in block capital.This situation regarding defaults would not just apply the the U.K media and somehow feel that Spain will HAVE to be bothered if this really hits the fan.
IT ALREADY HITTING THE FAN. THE SPANIARDS WITH THERE PASA NADA ATTITIDE WILL CARRY ON AND GO AND LIVE WITH THE MUM/DAD. THEY ARE NOT WORRIED ABOUT CREDIT BLACK LIST AS MOST PEOPLE DONT BORROW IN SPAIN DUE TO THE RELATED COST INVOLVED IN DOING SO. THE SPANIARD HAVE NOT BOUGHT IN AREAS WHERE THE BRTIS HAVE BOUGHT SO IT DOES NOT AFFECT THEM. SPAIN HAS ALREADY HAD BAD PUBLICITY AND AS I SAID THAT THEY DONT CARE. WITH THE PROBLEMS THAT SPAIN HAS AND WITH THE ISSUES THAT GOES TO THE ROOT OF ITS SOCIETY, NO ACTION OF ANY SIGNIFICANCE HAS TAKEN PLACE TO ENSURE THAT THE COUNTRY AND ITS SYSTEM IS NOT UNDERMINED.
Of course the corrupt will not bother but feel that the whole corruption mess in legal system would make the Priors case look like a Sunday tea party
AGREE, PEOPLE ARE ALREADY SAYING PRIOR WHO ???? AS THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT THEIR OWN ROOF OVER THEIR HEAD,
if the public see people in their own country being evicted from their own homes.
A VERY FEW SPANIARDS WILL BE AFFECTED BY THIS AS THE FAMILY NETWORK WILL UNDER PIN THEM. THE BRITS OR OTHER IMMIGRANTS LIKE MOROCCANS/SOUTH AMERICANS WILL BE AFFECTED MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE. THE BRITS MOST AS THEY HAVE PAID OVER THE ODDS WHILST THE ONE MENTIONED ABOVE COULD NOT AFFORD THE HOMES THAT BRITS BOUGHT OR DISLIKED THE AREA IN THE FIRST PLACE. SPANIARDS DONT BUY BECAUSE THE SUN SHINES IN SPAIN.
First the Banks would have to win the case in Spain on lending on illegal builds
ILLEGAL BUILDS ARGUMENT AS WE KNOW IS MEANING LESS IN SPANISH COURTS.
then and if they won which courts and in which country would they be enforced.
JUDGEMENT OBTAINED IN ONE EU CAN BE ENFORCED IN ANOTHER EU COUNTRY.
As Claire pointed out and add. How would the Spanish Courts deal with the volume and as they appear to not be able to make judgements involving straight forward cases which we hear of everyday
ALL THE NEWLY UNEMPLOYED FROM THE CONSTRUCTION SECTOR WILL BE PLACED AS JUDGES. LETS FACE IT THE COMPETANCES OF THE JUDGES ARE SUSPECT. BESIDES THESE PEOPLE WILL HAVE FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE OF THE MAL PRACTISES IN THE FEILD.IF THE BANKS WON AT COURT SURELY WE COULD DO AS THEY DO AND APPEAL
As these appeals appear to go on for 10 years, could we give them the merry go round like they have given us.NOW YOU ARE TALKING ITS NOT MERRY GO ROUND, YOU ARE PLAYING THE SYSTEM LIKE THE SPANIARDS DO. QUE SERA AND THEY LIVE LONGER THAN THE NORTHERN EUROPEANS.
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Charlie 🙂
Think you know that I am indeed on your side of the fence however I do try to look over the other side as well.
Glad your taking a liking to me and I have that effect on people after 3 or 4 years. 😉
As me Dad used to say the best form of defence is attack and think you know I am doing just that almost everyday.( well many others do anyway)
I could Sir Frank Chichester leading the Brits against the Spanish. 😆Just Frank 8)
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Hi Shakeel.
Well if we really play the system and if some cant afford the payments mortgage anyway,just stop and play that system to the full and keep going to appeal for say 10 years,
Have free holidays and just hope that property values increases this 10 years enough to pay the oustanding mortgage off anyway including any unpaid mortgage payments.
Lets just all go round saying tomorrow,tomorrow. 😆
If judgements can be transfered between E.U Countries then as they would in many cases be bankrupting people then perhaps there may be some legal aid around.Just Frank 8)
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@charlie wrote:
*Recent advice given by a MEP: “Can’t help but suggest you should start a petition”. 🙄
I’d love to know which MEP this is, so that I can write to them & ask them where they think it should be presented.
In the most recent email I have received from Michael Cashman MEP he tells me that the British Government can do nothing, & that Our Petition should be presented to the Spanish Government. I really have very little faith in taking this action. 😥
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Just Frank wrote:anyway,just stop and play that system to the full and keep going to appeal for say 10 years,
Have free holidays and just hope that property values increases this 10 years enough to pay the oustanding mortgage off anyway including any unpaid mortgage payments.Exactly.
People will do just that and banks will realise that they are the ones with unprofitable assets on their books.
They will then become very willing to help short sell the properties.
In one year time will be so many foreign investors with negative equity that it will impossible for banks to chase all of them when they decide to “jingle mail” (the new term for sending the key to the banks.
People should not worry.
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Ralita,Guys and Gals
So we have it sussed then. 😆
Oh well thats the Spanish property market sorted ,this afternoon think I will sort this Banking crisis that everyones on about.
Just have feeling that some very clever people are at work putting panic into some Banking shares on purpose and when they plummet buy very discounted shares 😈
Many big businesses = BANKS at the moment are making very big money as well as many loosing their shirts.
£80.00 shares at £1.00 sounds like a result somehow 😯Should get this sorted by about 6 or 7 tonight
Frank 8)
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Hi Shakeel
Yep yer right.
Will have to have think how we can get around this and the corruption/fraud/money laundering/I.V.A evasion may be able to twist it in the right direction,
Well we are playing them at their own game are we not and they make the rules up as they go along so why cant we.
We will need to think Spanish here Shakeel to be able to play them at their own game 😆 and as we know there are no rules.Just Frank
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I reckon we will have to change our names first to Pedro or Jose! Otherwise we are not Spanish and therefore cannot claim their way of totally bending the rules to suit!
Cant see a judge being very sympathetic with me – oh dear missus, cant afford the mortgage and you got 2 kids, never mind – out you go and bugger off to your own country! They will look after you there – free everything and an income!
Whats that – your house was illegal and no LFO – well now, THAT shouldnt stop you paying your mortgage and in any case, its about to be legalized, so now you owe another 50k for the priviledge of that paper!
Give me strength. Brazil is looking very tempting!
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Inez wrote:They will look after you there – free everything and an income!
I do not think that it is going be that easy.
Say take 10 thousands Brits who owe more to one bank than the value of their house and who lose money month after month. They all decide to put keys in the mail.
What can the bank do? Run after 10 thousand people to confiscate their UK houses?
All the 10 thousand also can claim that the bank valuation done by valuator-thieves was the reason they paid too much for the property and all threaten to counter-sue the bank.
I am sure that the bank will take the losses at that moment as they do not have thousands of lawyers to travel across UK to attend trials after trials.
The Spanish banks better wake up as the foreign investors are not as naive as the banks think…
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I’m not on the side of the banks, or anyone else for that matter…but how can the banks be blamed for lending on properties that have fallen in value (on paper or in reality)?
I have read many, many posts over recent years on forums from people complaining that their Spanish bank valuation came in “too low”, that they now “couldn’t afford” to buy their dream villa and asking what should they do about it? The advice was more often than not to shop around for a higher valuation, make sure that the valuer included the illegal 3rd storey, extension, roof terrace, pool or whatever. Or to use a “dodgy” mortgage broker with up front “arrangement fees” and ultimately pay higher rates of interest for a 110% mortgage. I’ve also heard of buyers who falsified wage slips and accounts in order to get mortgages or higher mortgage offers. The advice was never along the lines of “save up a bigger deposit” or “look for a cheaper property”.
The responsibility for the debt surely ultimately lies with the person who borrowed the money in the first place…same as with credit card “borrowing”. Nobody was forced to take out a mortgage or to buy a certain price bracket property.
House prices go up (nobody complains then)…house prices go down (everybody complains)! -
I can see Spanish Banks based in UK e.g. BBVA, Banco Sabadel and Banks like Abbey ( known in the circle as shabby) & Royal Bank of Scotland acting for them on a % basis.
This could be a good little earner for them as they don’t lend. Their income is based on FX exchange, charges for money transfers etc and some documentary credit business for Spanish food & veg importers, the later probably is negligible now due to simplicity of EU and the next generation of Spaniards conversant in English and need not deal with Spanish banks.
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Hillybilly, it does not matter who’s fault it is, the boom is already consumed, now we are in the bust period.
Somebody will have to pay for the excesses. The borrowers won’t be able to pay as they have no extra-cash (I do not excuse them, just state the facts). The banks won’t be able to squeeze much from them so will be forced to take a loss.
It won’t be pretty, but it never is pretty when one wakes up after excesses.
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Hi
Think were on a roll here.
Inez ? 50 K for that bit of paper your talkng about.“PROPERTIES SOLD THAT WERE NOT LEGAL”
This must be paid by the Banks,Developers.Council.or Government
NO PURCHASER SHALL PAY. Clause 1Seconder needed to pass this motion and thats it,
What we can do then is not pay the mortgage and play the game for the 10 years and if prices do not rise to cover mortgages and back payments THEN they can have the illegal property back,
Just Fernando 🙄 Frank 8)
Getting the hang of how the Spanish mind works now and its easy
JUST DONT GIVE A TOSSHillbilly 🙂 We are not talking about property prices falling we are about illegal builds.
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OK, so you see a car, buy it funded by a Bank loan. You find out that the car is not as good as you thought, maybe accident damage or just poor build quality.
Do you think that the bank should refund the money?
Write off your debt if you send the kets to them.
It is your debt, pay it. Why should I and many others receive lower interest on money invested, just because many stupid people borrowed when they cannot afford to pay off their debt.
If they can’t pay their debts, stop them borrowing for another 25 years.
Stated before, but, for those who struck lucky and sold for a profit, bet they did not offer an uplift in interest to the Bank, no, just went down the pub to tell all how clever they were. -
mg wrote:It is your debt, pay it. Why should I and many others receive lower interest on money invested, just because many stupid people borrowed when they cannot afford to pay off .
You already pay for the people which borrowed excesively (the USA interest rates are going to the drain, UK and EU will follow soon so savers will be crushed).
You will pay much more when almost all recent investors will be at negative equity.
I am sure you and me won’t like it, but this is the way life is.
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M.G Wrote
It is your debt, pay it. Why should I and many others receive lower interest on money invested, just because many stupid people borrowed when they cannot afford to pay off their debt.Frank Replies 8)
We are talking about illegal builds.
The car thingy you are taikng about is covered in consumer law and you sue the seller 😉
JUST WANT TO DO THAT NOW WITH SPANISH PROPERTY THATS SOLD AND NOT LEGAL.Now they sort this legal situation or you me and many others will be pay for the corruption and abuse of their legal system.
Just the same as corrupt and incompetant governments do to us all everyday.Frank 8)
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We have a mortgage on an illegal property, granted by a big bank in Andalucia and have considered defaulting.
However, we had heard that the bank would pursue us and I could virtually guarantee that our developer would snap it up for a song and try to do the whole scam thing again!
I’m not going to give him the opportunity or the satisfaction.
I had heard that it was possible to get legal aid in a criminal case or at least , whether someone won or lost they would not have to pay the other persons costs with this kind of legal action.
I would love to denounce the bank for doing a valuation and granting a mortgage on an illegal property, but I have no faith in the Spanish legal system.
Were you serious Inez when you thought that people who return to the UK get a free house, income etc? We did that and got nothing. Told that we could not have help with a council house as we didn’t have enough points! My husband was not employed, we have children with medical issues and we only had a suitcase of clothes each.
If I had gone to the council offices wailing and screaming may be I would have got something but it’s not my style.A year and a half later, my husband and I have jobs; we are renting privately and still paying the mortgage. Not easy but we have our pride and a roof over our heads.
However, we could not afford to sue anyone at the moment and that is the downer. Very frustrating.
I dont blame those who have cut and run, leaving the keys with the bank. What could the Spanish banks actually do, if the Spanish illegal house is your only “asset”?
I dont care if, with the housing bust, my house is in negative equity, it was automatically that when we found out our house was illegal and we were paying for it to a bank that appear to have been complicit in the fraud.
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fran says “A year and a half later, my husband and I have jobs; we are renting privately and still paying the mortgage. Not easy but we have our pride and a roof over our heads. “
I say repect to you for making attempts to get out of the mess.
Looks like at least some Brits have good work ethics and not the attitude of sod them all, leave others pick up the bill.Frank. Illegal builds they may be, but I have said before, nobody held a gun to the buyers head (well haven’t heard of any), it was a risk, a gamble and these things don’t always pay off.
OK, the developer or agent may not have told you the tru facts, but many were aware that the laws of the land from Country to Country vary, so, if you don’t want to gamble, don’t buy it, unless you can afford it. For those who bought without giving such things a thought, they have to accept half the blame.
For anyone who bought as a result of sales talk from an agent, more fool them. -
It’s not a lending institution’s job to verify for a borrower that a property is legal or not. That is left to others. I would imagine that banks who have lent money against illegal properties are as pissed off as anyone because it’s ultimately as much their asset as the homeowner’s until such time as the mortgage is repaid. But that’s their own problem.
Those purchasers who bought without a mortgage have no recourse to “blame” a lender.
A house purchase contract is between buyer and seller, the bank is just an optional facilitator in the process. If there’s something amiss with the “goods”, the course of law has to be between buyer and seller. -
We did that and got nothing. Told that we could not have help with a council house as we didn’t have enough points! My husband was not employed, we have children with medical issues and we only had a suitcase of clothes each.
If you had been an immigrant you would have had plenty of points and then they would have given you a house and paid you you “loads o’ money”!!!!!!!!!!!
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mg: A car loan is not a secured loan and a depreciating asset with a 5 year life span. Because it is an insecure loan the interest rates and the length for which the loan is extended reflects this.
A property is a secured loan and as such if the security is suspect it defeats the purpose of taking a security in the event that the security is enforced.
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My issue with the bank in question is that they knew where the house was, the type of land it was built on and still went ahead and gave us the mortgage. I think they do have an obligation to lend responsibly.
If they had said, this isn’t illegal and why, we wouldnt have paid the balance and then would have sued the pants off our developer there and then.
It is a serious indication of the corrupt situation in our particular town, that three banks looked over the paperwork BEFORE we had signed at notary and said it was legal, that together with 2 lawyers!! Also when we signed on the empadronmiento at the new address, they didn’t say that they couldn’t sign us on as the property was illegal. They had trouble finding it on the system, but then just over rode it – not a word about illegality until we asked for a license of occupation, a year after we had signed at notary and been paying IBI.
The only mistake we are guilty of is trusting the people who we SHOULD have been able to trust. We kept asking, is the deal legal and at every turn were told yes, by several so-called independent institutions.
Are we fools then? We thought that we had taken all precautions by getting it checked out by so many people in authority – we weren’t to know that they were in on it. Sorry, but I find you too black and white on this issue Mg.
I dont think that it is possible equate car buying with house buying – it’s completely different and over simplistic an analogy, but that’s just my opinion.
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Fran, I agree with you 100%, that the banks should not have lent on a property that is illegal. After all it was there money that they were lending on a suspect security.
I feel very annoyed when I read peoples callous replies as to what one should have done or not have done. I have bought & sold properties and must say have been very lucky. I had never used a lawyer in buying or selling as I did not trust them and did not see the reason of paying them and still keeping an eye on them to protect my interest.
It seams that you have been very sensible and more than prudent at every step in your purchase and got caught out against a blatant corrupt system against which no body can prevent against.
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“A car loan is not a secured loan and a depreciating asset with a 5 year life span”
Next you are going to tell us that a 2 bed appartment on the Costas is an appreciating asset?
A depreciating asset, that contradicts itself. If it depreciates it is not an asset.Whatever the loan is taken out for, it is a debt. If you have a debt, you should be made responsible to pay it back, not leave it up to others.
Next we will be asked to feel sorry for scroungers who live of the state, or dealers who have to sell drugs to make a living.I get very annoyed when I read of people who blame everyone and their dogs and take no responsibility themselves. Except for the likes of Fran, who does have what also matters, “pride”.
“I dont think that it is possible equate car buying with house buying” Why not?
Many cars bought by those in the City, cost more that the holiday home.
The borrowings are higher and what happens in the next 12 months when their bonuses are not there to allow them to repay?
Should we pick up the increased interest rates to cover their foolishness? -
“Next you are going to tell us that a 2 bed apartment on the Costas is an appreciating asset?”
Property & land is an appreciating asset over a period of time, the lower the price is paid at the time of acquisition. The higher the return on it.
“A depreciating asset, that contradicts itself. If it depreciates it is not an asset”.
Please find out the defination of an asset.
“Whatever the loan is taken out for, it is a debt.”
Yes.“If you have a debt, you should be made responsible to pay it back”,
I agree.“not leave it up to others.”
Yes, I agree“Next we will be asked to feel sorry for scroungers who live of the state, or dealers who have to sell drugs to make a living.”
Nobody, is asking you to feel sorry for them. Frankly this statement is uncalled for and is out of context.
“I get very annoyed when I read of people who blame everyone and their dogs and take no responsibility themselves.”
Good for you, perhaps you don’t have other things to get annoyed about.
“Except for the likes of Fran, who does have what also matters, “pride”. “
It seams that in your views pride is a scarce commodity and most of the humanity is deprived of it.
“I don’t think that it is possible equate car buying with house buying” Why not?
I have given my reasons, why, perhaps you go and read a few books on finance.
“Many cars bought by those in the City, cost more that the holiday home.”
You cant live in a Porsche/Ferrari, nor have they started manufacturing caravans.
The borrowings are higher and what happens in the next 12 months when their bonuses are not there to allow them to repay?
The bonus are mainly used to buy prime estate in UK, USA, etc with finance raised and cars are paid by cash or leased.
“Should we pick up the increased interest rates to cover their foolishness?”
Interest rates are not set by a handful of city boys buying cars.It seams that you don’t like scroungers, city boys, bankers, car salesman
and land owners. Love to know what you think of Duke of Westminster or Prince Charles. Perhaps you are not aware that Queen mother had Assets of £21million and liabilities of £19 million. She should not have borrowed the £19 million. Its would been a shame for Gin industry. -
Let’s all get real
Borrow money from a bank and you owe the money
Negative Equity is your problem – you borrowed the money YOU pay it back!
At the end of the day, all papers submitted to the Bank to support the loan are YOUR responsibility. IF YOU used fake wage slips / P60’s / over inflated valuations etc then that is your responsibility. Any valuation is paid for by the borrower and the report is therefore for the borrower to the bank.
If YOUR solicitor (and don’t say it was the developers solicitor because you chose to instruct them to act on your behalf) gave the paperwork the OK, then that solicitor was your chosen agent.
Default on a mortgage in Spain and the Bank should chase you anywhere (and certainly because the law allows for it) throughout the EC. Your UK assets should be seized to cover the debt. At the end of the day, you chose to borrow the money, you have had the money now give it back.
Why should a Bank’s shareholders and depositors lose one cent because you made a mistake!
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rob-fuengirola, 😀 😀 😀
Yes, yes, yes.
Where did you come from all of a sudden?
Common sense, and respect for your own actions at last.“It seams that you don’t like scroungers, city boys, bankers, car salesman and land owners.”
May seem it but not true when all are a source of income to me.“Love to know what you think of Duke of Westminster or Prince Charles. “
Magnificent. -
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Hundreds if not thousands of people have written to their MP’s, MEP,s and people and places of higher authority asking for intervention in the corrupt and unfair Spanish Judicial system. They have been met with sympathetic replies but have been told that they cannot intervene in another EU countries laws, especially if a Court case is in progress.
I hope that if the Spanish Banks do chase after mortgage defaulters to the UK, (I’m not saying it is right to default) they will be told, “Sorry we cannot intervene. Spain caused the problem by allowing wholesale corruption in the building sector. Sort it out yourselves”
I live in hope. -
Hi
The Banks arrange for the mortgage by valuation of the property.
Now if the property is then no licence or is illegal then them in turn must share some responsiblity.
The property has been valued wrong and they made the mistake,they were conned as much as anyone.
This is not down to people making a mistake when they went into the market at the wrong time and prices fell
Banks lend money at competive rates on SECURED assests so they have a duty of care to protect their customers and shareholders.
I have a P/M this morning from a client who refused to sign without a habitation licence after thre hours of pressure from the developer.
He has since found out that he has indeed sighed for a smaller property by having his signiture forged. 😈
ITS SIMPLE ,? THE BANKS,THE SOLICITORS,THE GOVERNMENTS,THE DEVELOPERS,THE NOTARYS AND YES THE BUYERS WERE ALL RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT AMOUNTS TO SOMETHING BEING ILLEGAL.
PURCHASERS SHOULD NOT BE 100% RESPONSIBLE FOR REWARDING CRIME.
Frank 8) -
A question then, considering the advice here is that the banks do not accept responsibility as to whether a property is legal or not, and happily give mortgages regardless.
What about when they issue a Bank Guarantee for an illegal build?
Can they throw their hands in the air in shock/horror when the BG is claimed on, saying “Oh, we didn’t know it wasn’t legal and had no building licence therefore we hereby state our Bank Guarantee is null and void”.I think not.
Banks must have a legal department that ensures everything is legal when they hand out money.For me the truth is they were happy to lend money and issue Bank Guarantees on illegal properties (in cahoots with the developer) while the property market was rampant. They ‘cooked a nice meal’ with the developer so let them now enjoy eating it together.
Irresponsible lending is their problem when it comes to illegal builds. Let them try and grab someone’s UK property in this situation – am sure they will meet a legal brick wall. -
rob-fuengirola et al., do you refer in you posting to purchasing UK property or Spanish property?
If you refer to UK property, I agree that the contracts are set in stone and people should be chased for the pounds they own.
If you refer to Spain, I hope you know that the contracts were worthless.
Everything was faked. Bank evaluations, bank guarantees, developer guarantees.As a buyer, when you put your signature on a faked contract, you can always proceed the same way as banks, developers and local authorities i.e. ignore any legal oblications.
Always remember, we are talking about Spain not about UK. Everybody concerned with property development in Spain (banks, developers, authorities) should be taught a lesson so they do not attemp to abuse foreign buyers in the future.
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ralita/claire/frank/charlie/fran
well said, common sense and blaming the guilty, not the innocent buyer who’s been screwed by the dreadful property situation in Spain. I’m not saying some blame should not be taken by the buyer, but for heaven sake, if most peoples crime was to take advice from those they either paid to advise them, or at the very least (banks) were advised by those who are paid to know better, then it’s hardly a crime is it?……….unless, like some who post on this thread, you have the same attitude as those ar**holes who caused most of the misery in the first place.
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Interesting debate, well it was until Claire chipped in with her mini–rant against immigrants to the UK (I always find that rich from Brits who have moved to Spain). And thank goodness for Rob-Fuengirola for finally pointing out that nobody put a gun to people’s heads when they were signing for their Spanish property. We bought in the Begur area of Catalunya and found the banks, lawyers, valuers etc were as efficient and as honest as they would be in the UK. If they want their money back because house prices are heading south, they deserve it. I expect the banks to chase defaulters wherever they are in the EU because I don’t want my bank charges going up to pay for the home owners’ mistakes in the market.
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Charlie 🙂 Well put.
CHOICES.AND FACTS
1 Tne Banks lent the money due to shear greed and they have direct responsiblity to lend money.
2 Many purhased a property that was legal.The solicitors/The Town Halls/The notaries/Finally The Banks who of course must have checked that everything was legal before lending on a secure asset.
3 That was the agreement almost all signed and now if the are saying that they made a mistake lending as the property is not now legal then thats tough.
4 Now ?( A )Make the properties legal (B) Supply what we contracted to buy or its simple really and until they do then Boll–cks.
Gives our deposits back/Give the opportunity to cancel mortgages that the Banks secured their lending on illegal builds in the first place.
ITS ABOUT TIME WE JUST STOPPED AND TEL THEM TO COME BACK WHEN THEY SORT THE MESS OUT OR ITS PAYBACK TIME.Frank 8)
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@colinB wrote:
Interesting debate, well it was until Claire chipped in with her mini–rant against immigrants to the UK (I always find that rich from Brits who have moved to Spain).
Well Colin , get your facts right before slinging dirt. FYI I live in the UK NOT SPAIN…. AND… I am entitled to my opinions as is anyone else.
Mini rant??? Get a life! I stand by what I said re immigrants to the UK. People choosing to live in Spain HAVE to be self sufficient. They don’t go there with a begging bowl. -
@Claire wrote:
If you had been an immigrant you would have had plenty of points and then they would have given you a house and paid you “loads o’ money”!!!!!!!!!!!
Is that a “rant” Colin? Or is it that you’re just one of those lefties-in-denial with what’s happening in England? An Afghani interviewed recently says he is going to be returning to UK soon because he is missing the £278 pw he was getting in benefits re. his wife, kids, housing et al.
You say “I always find that rich from Brits who have moved to Spain”.
Since when was Surrey in Spain? 😯Unnecessarily rude, ill-informed crap post re. Claire, and as for the rest of it……I’m alright Jack, I’m in the lifeboat comes to mind.
Good for you Colin that you were lucky. And please don’t tell me how you did more research than many of us. You were just lucky. And I hope for your sake 5 years down the line the Junta doesn’t suddenly decide your property is illegal and pull it down, as with the Prior’s house.
Am sure, at the time, they “found the banks, lawyers, valuers etc were as efficient and as honest as they would be in the UK”. -
They won’t find my Catalunya house illegal because I did my research, employed professionals and didn’t buy from Brit who suddenly decided he was an estate agent. I won’t waste space on the ill-informed, xenophobe bringing Afghanistan into a Spanish forum. That’ll be the Afghanistan we’ve invaded I suppose. Anyway, it’s about time a few mild lefties contributed to this forum.
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@charlie wrote:
@colinB wrote:
The war started by your lefty government.
“Lefty” government? Since when?!
<>
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Ashtondav – I would have thought you were so content with simply ‘licking your lips’ in anticipation, waiting for the ‘blood to flow’ before you pounce with your ‘pile of cash’, you wouldn’t have a need to try and follow a thread like this.
Suggest you see page 2. Fran and family, unable to get some financial support on returning to the UK after purchasing an illegal build in Spain and being financially ruined as a result. So what if a fact is mentioned that immigrants do seem to get the support they need.
I know, all hysterically funny for some.
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@mg wrote:
rob-fuengirola, 😀 😀 😀
Yes, yes, yes.
Where did you come from all of a sudden?I have sat on the outside looking in for some months now. I have had to laugh at a lot of the comments posted on the forum which at times devalue it from being an insight into Spanish Property to a personal “ranting” soap box for a few.
Rather than continue to take this thread off topic, I have posted a new one at http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3050 where I give my thoughts about these forums generally!
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Hi Rob
Respect what you have to say and I have always wished to put as balanced a view point as I can as the majority of peole are very happy with their properties in Spain.
You say that this forum does not represent the Insight of the Soanish property market.
Yet another that sits back and points fingers with the I could have told you so attitude at those that have suffered at the hands of the corruption in Spain.
Are these people wrong when they entered into a transaction to purchse a property and the have the rules of the agreement changed AFTER they purchased without mutual consent.
All the majority of these people want is what they agreed to pay for i,e legal property with the specification they contracted to buy.
Forget the negative equity and those that simply tried to play the game of profit as thats life.
The simple fact is that an ageement is just that between parties that a product is offered and you agree to pay for that product based on the infomation,specifcation and legals you have at hand.
You pay for that however if someone changes the rules after then the deals off in my books.
Before I am accused of being on a soap box let me assure you that I to have purchsed and soId properties in Spain and the U.K.
I have sold many Spanish properties through U.K respected companies that have knowingly robbed people of their life savings and even their pensions.
I have witnessed the pure evil of your so called helpful ,Banks.Solicitors.Notaries.Developers Councils,Government which you praise so highly while they rip off even their own families for pure greed.
Before you make judgement and laugh at others ensure you have all facts at hand
The Solicitors that used to post will probably have the same opinion as mine ,that corruption is so inbedded in the system that offerring legal advice is proving fruitless with rules that can be changed alongside corrupt Judges that are in the pockets of the developers.
I have no time whatsover for anyone that does not pay their way in life and live by decisions they make both good and bad.
ITS SIMPLE REALLY GIVE THE PEOPLE WHAT THEY AGREED TO BUY OR GIVE THE THEIR MONEY BACK.
Councils.government ?Make the properties legal.or knock them down and compensate.
Why dont they make them legal ? Because they want to make some money out of it.
Illegal property is just that and if its illegal then dont change the rules and charge taxes etc as it has to be one or the other,
If they are made legal them people can then decide to keep them or not as it is this is not an option.
Banks knowingly lent money on illegal properties and now they decide they wont and simply stuffs so many people,
Developers and Banks promised a product and put in GUARANTESS to ensure they received a property on time and to the specification in an agreement.
Fail to deliver and dont expect to get paid and call in the Bank guarantee which is proving to be worthless.
Mark very likely did not expect the forum to be so negative but for so many that is THE SPANISH PROPERTY INSIGHT.Just Frank 8)
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@Just Frank wrote:
the majority of peole are very happy with their properties in Spain.
Correct – probably about 95% so on that basis, the negatives on this forum should only equate to about 5% of all posts
@Just Frank wrote:
Are these people wrong when they entered into a transaction to purchse a property and the have the rules of the agreement changed AFTER they purchased without mutual consent.
No – but why are the rules changed AFTER completion? This is where the problem is. If you enter into a contract, you DO NOT complete until the other side has completed their side of the contract.
@Just Frank wrote:
if someone changes the rules after then the deals off in my books.
Correct, so why complete?
@Just Frank wrote:
I have sold many Spanish properties through U.K respected companies that have knowingly robbed people of their life savings and even their pensions.
Why? Are you saying that you are actually one of the bad guys yourself? If not, are you saying that you are giving the bad guys street cred by being part of their system?
@Just Frank wrote:
Before you make judgement and laugh at others ensure you have all facts at hand
My other post said that I had to laugh at the soapbox antics of certain contributors not at the fate of those that for one reason or another have been caught. I have the facts at hand. I have bought and sold 7 properties in Spain with no problems.
The bottom line is that the law in Spain is not so different from the law in the UK as regards to real estate. Contract law is also very close. The legal system here is more long winded and one does have to front up the costs of litigation as in the UK. If you contract to buy here and your contract is not correct then as in the UK you will get what is served up. If you have an exact and proper contract you will get what you paid for or a legal recourse (which may take a little time)
Do not think Spain is a third world country – it is not. It’s legal system will work IF YOUR CASE IS RIGHT.
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rob-fuengirola wrote
Do not think Spain is a third world country – it is not. It’s legal system will work IF YOUR CASE IS RIGHT.
That statement is absolute b******s!! How would you know if you had 8 SUCCESSFUL property purchases. ?
Our property was never built due to an illegal building licence. The Lawyers did not pick up on it Nor did the Spanish bank that gave the developer mortgages on these never to be built apartments. Did the developer give us our money back? NO! We had to go through two Court cases and a bucket load of stress before we found a decent lawyer, (who says that he is ashamed at the way the legal system works in the corruption cases.) before we got our money back. In 2003 nobody had heard of the Malaya corruption scandal or it’s predecessor, the white whale case. We were lucky, most people who purchased up to a year later than us had no idea what was going on. We got to Court early in the day. It took us a mere 15 months to get our money back., not the 4/5/6 years it is taking others…with no end in sight.Your sanctimonious post is typical of “the I’m all right Jack” people that come to this forum. Try being on the other side of the fence. You’d be on a soap box PDQ!
You wrote:
I have sat on the outside looking in for some months now
Best place for you!
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Hi Rob
Hate thsi copy and paste thingy but feel that this is the best option in this case.________________________________________
Just Frank wrote:
the majority of people are very happy with their properties in Spain.Rob replied.
Correct – probably about 95% so on that basis, the negatives on this forum should only equate to about 5% of all postsWE AGREE 8) HOWEVER GOOD NEWS IS OF LITTLE INTEREST.
Just Frank wrote:
Are these people wrong when they entered into a transaction to purchase a property and the have the rules of the agreement changed AFTER they purchased without mutual consent.Rob replied
No – but why are the rules changed AFTER completion? This is where the problem is. If you enter into a contract, you DO NOT complete until the other side has completed their side of the contract.ROB ? IF THE RULES ARE CHANGED AFTER YOU COMPLETE THEN THIS IS WRONG AND YOU DONT HAVE A CASE ON THIS. 8) 8)
Just Frank wrote:
if someone changes the rules after then the deals off in my books.Rob replied
Correct, so why complete?100% AGREE THAT YOU DONT COMPLETE UNTIL ALL IS IN ORDER AND IF ITS NOT THEN ITS A BREACH OF CONTRACT AND DEPOSITS AND MONEY MUST BE RETURNED BY THE DEVELOPER OR BANK GUARANTEE. 8)
Just Frank wrote:
I have sold many Spanish properties through U.K respected companies that have knowingly robbed people of their life savings and even their pensions.Rob Replied
Why? Are you saying that you are actually one of the bad guys yourself? If not, are you saying that you are giving the bad guys street cred by being part of their system?NOT RELEVENT . YOU POINTED OUT THAT YOU HAD THE VAST EXPERIENCE TO POST AND FORM OPINIONS OF OTHERS ON THE FORUM AFTER 7 TRANSACTIONS.AND 5 POSTINGS, UNLESS YOU HAVE THE FULL DETAILS OF MY PART IN THE SYSTEM THEN I SUGGEST YOU JUST CONSIDER THAT I CAN GIVE MY VIEWS FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE OF THE WIDER SITUATION OF THE MARKET.
Thankfully I do not have one sale that I have either got the money back or would sell the same property tomorrow.
I HAVE HAD SUCCESFUL SALES AND LIKE SOME PROBABLY CONSIDERED IF I DID MY HOMEWORK I SHOULD BE O.K 😕
WHAT A LOAD OF S–iT AND TRUST ME THOSE LOVELY SMILING BANK MANAGERS,AND THE REST ARE NO WHERE TO BE SEEN WHEN IT GOES WRONG.
HOPEFULLY YOU WILL NEVER EXPERIENCE THIS BUT IF YOU DO YOUR OPINION WILL CHANGE NO DOUPT ABOUT THAT.
.Just Frank wrote:
Before you make judgement and laugh at others ensure you have all facts at handRob Reply
My other post said that I had to laugh at the soapbox antics of certain contributors not at the fate of those that for one reason or another have been caught. I have the facts at hand. I have bought and sold 7 properties in Spain with no problems.The bottom line is that the law in Spain is not so different from the law in the UK as regards to real estate. Contract law is also very close. The legal system here is more long winded and one does have to front up the costs of litigation as in the UK. If you contract to buy here and your contract is not correct then as in the UK you will get what is served up. If you have an exact and proper contract you will get what you paid for or a legal recourse (which may take a little time)
Do not think Spain is a third world country – it is not. It’s legal system will work IF YOUR CASE IS RIGHT.8) 8) 8) 8)
TAKE A LITTLE MORE TIME 😯 8 years for some on the forum for the simple cases and most wont get their money back ,How much TIME DO THIS LOT WANT 😈
SORRY TO SAY THIS ROB BUT I THINK THAT THIS IS TOTAL RUBBISH AND THE ONLY SYSTEM THAT’S WORKING IS THE CORRUPTION AND THOSE THAT CHOOSE TO NOT SEE THAT. 8)
ADDITIONAL FACTS
The idiots that sign up with no gun to their head to buy a property with Bank guarantees and a specification including a completion date,
These idiots then find that the other party has broken the law, failed to deliver as per contract and by law are entitled to a refund. GIVE THE IDIOTS A REFUND? WHATS THE PROBLEM AS THIS IS THE LEGAL SYSTEM YOU PRAISE, IS IT NOT?
Now let’s look at the real doughnuts that sign for a legal property, take a mortgage out on that legal property and find that due to corruption of this wonderful legal system the rules are changed and the property is now not legal. Personally I have to ask myself how someone could be so stupid.
BLIMEY 😯 THEY SHOULD BLAME THEMSELVES,SURELY THEY MUST BE AWARE THAT CHANGING THE RULES MUST BE FORSEEN 😕
Now let’s look at the ones that should take your advice and not completed because the contract has and may never be fulfilled (You know those idiots that didn’t have gun to their heads that had the legal system to protect them which by this time should have had their deposit back)
Some cases going on for 5,6.10 years with no interest on their money, no end in sight and they have information (true) that the developer is in financial trouble and if he goes pop then all their money is lost. WHAT DO THESE IDIOTS DO NOW?
ROB I am on my last and final warning for a lifetime ban for trying to put as positive a stance on the threads which has caused me mucho problems as I feel that the forums do only reflect the negatives.
People do need to see the other side as many are worried sick with their lot .not helped by some posters that only look at their own situation.
I love the country with a passion and would be there tomorrow if the situation allowed however it would not change my views
(1) PAY A DEPOSIT AND IF THE CONTRACT IS NOT FULFILLED THEN THE DEPOSIT IS RETURNED WITH INTEREST.
(2) TAKE OUT A MORTGAGE ON A LEGAL PROPERTY <THEN ITS DEEMED ILLEGAL THEN YOU STOP PAYING AS THATS NOT THE DEAL.
We are talking 100s of thousands of these idiots ( you know the gun at the head thingy)
WHEN WE STAND UP AND SAY ENOUGH IS ENOUGH THEN THEY WILL START LISTENING.THEN SPAIN CAN MOVE ON.Now Your comments that the forum have little and not of interest.
I started this thread Thursday evening and it seems that its interesting to many 🙂
Sorry Rob . But while you post may have impressed some but on forums we dont always agree.
In this instance saldly I dont agree with many aspects of your post.however I do agree 100% that some sectiions of the forum should move on.P.S DID YOU REALLY TAKE OUT 120% MORTGAGES ON SPANISH PROPERTY 😯
NO WONDER YOU NEED TO KEEP POPPING THOSE HEART PILLS. 😉 :All the best
Just Frank 8)
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Hi Paul,
At no time did the developer offer us our money back in full. (May 2005)We went to Marbella to our lawyers office when we heard that upper GH was not to be built. At this meeting we insisted our lawyer phone Eralia there and then, to ask for our money back. We were furious that we had to wait a further 18 months to then exercise the (only just given!) BG ….They had already had our money for 18 months. Why should they keep it for three years when no property was being built? A blatant breach of contract. It meant that we were unable to buy another property as we had tied up £100,000. They said if they were to give us any money back they would deduct 50% of the deposit as expenses. 😯 😯 The lawyer then sent them a burofax to again ask for the return of our money in full. They replied that they had discussed the matter but were unable to do so and that we had to wait until the BG expiry date.
The next lawyer we went to asked Eralia again, Same reply. Our third lawyer asked “very nicely”! Same reply. You know the final outcome.Frank…you must have got carried away!! Couldn’t you take your finger off the send button!! ??:lol:
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As you can see from my post, not us. I don’t know about Charlie but it would have been a vacuous offer as they knew it was unacceptable and we were entitled to interest under Spanish Law!!! 🙄 Some people settled for no interest as they needed their deposit back ASAP. Also in many cases they said they would deduct “expenses” ie the commission they paid the EA and advertising! That is why people were more or less forced to go to Court.
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@hillybilly wrote:
It’s not a lending institution’s job to verify for a borrower that a property is legal or not. That is left to others. I would imagine that banks who have lent money against illegal properties are as pissed off as anyone because it’s ultimately as much their asset as the homeowner’s until such time as the mortgage is repaid. But that’s their own problem.
Those purchasers who bought without a mortgage have no recourse to “blame” a lender.
A house purchase contract is between buyer and seller, the bank is just an optional facilitator in the process. If there’s something amiss with the “goods”, the course of law has to be between buyer and seller.Ok whilst it may not be the lending institutions job it is surely the job of the valuation companies working on behalf of the bank and paid for by the borrower. Should they not be sued (I know another 3-4 years) for proffesional negligence for valuing properties which effectively have zero value, the decission to buy, and the lenders decission to lend are after all based on their report and supposed expertise.
Having returned to the UK in January leaving enough money to service the mortgage on our legal (hopefully) property for a few months, I have twice been declined jobseekers allowance, I find this frustrating as before leaving the UK I paid well above the national average income in taxes alone, we declared leaving the UK and surrendered our child allowance which till now we still have been unsuccesful in reinstating.
I guess systems suck everywhere
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The valautions are onyl valid for 6 months and so will reflect the ‘valuations’ at that time. Comparables are sneaking in a lot now as well so they are becoming more accurate, although these are based on asking figures! Now that the black money syndrome is dead, we should start to see full declared prices and what people actually paid – however I know this practise is still very much going on in Almeria/Alicante region and still here amongst the spanish who have cash to buy with!!!
Banks are now declaring the full amount – that did used to amaze me when a mortgage was given and the bank underdecalred what they had lent!!!!!
Wonder how they will argue that in court on a repo!
Anyway, if you live for more than 3 years out of 5 away from the uk then when you go back you are classed as an immigrant! Unfortunately that DOESNT mean you get everything given, even if you and your families have paid everything and never claimed in your lives. I found that out 9 years ago!!!!
You will have to keep puching at the system and you will get there.
Good luck!
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@jiminspain wrote:
Ok whilst it may not be the lending institutions job it is surely the job of the valuation companies working on behalf of the bank and paid for by the borrower. Should they not be sued (I know another 3-4 years) for proffesional negligence for valuing properties which effectively have zero value, the decission to buy, and the lenders decission to lend are after all based on their report and supposed expertise.
Yes, if a valuer has been negligent in their valuation, they can suffer a claim from the lending institution that lent based on that information. But only if an actual loss is suffered by that lending institution (i.e. borrower defaults, property is repossessed and then doesn’t achieve enough at sale to satisfy the outstanding borrowings). In these circumstances, the lender will be entitled to claim from the valuer an amount equal to the extent of the shortfall in its recovery, up to the amount of the overvaluation. There is a ‘damages cap’, meaning a valuer cannot be held liable for any loss suffered as a result of a fall in the market.
Similar legal actions and case history in the UK resulted in the House of Lords distinguishing between a duty to provide information for the purpose of enabling someone else to decide upon a course of action and a duty to advise someone as to what course of action to take.
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