- This topic has 48 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 16 years, 7 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
-
-
@angie wrote:
According to Town Crier, 45% of all new builds on the Coast remain UNSOLD, that´s up 20% on year ago.
It takes an average 52 months to sell a flat, and 56 months to sell a villa, in both cases prices would have been slashed no doubt!
It takes on average more than 4 years to sell a property? What happens if you are really motivated to sell, how low would you have to go to get a sale in a few months? And I don’t think we’ve really started yet as there are lots more developments coming to the market at the same time that banks are getting a little cautious to whom they lend money.
Spain in two years is going to be like something out of a Mad Max film!
-
Mike, I´ve spoken to an English Estate Agent in Spain who has told me that it would be perfectly reasonable now to offer 35% less sometimes even more on lots of properties. He appears to be telling it like it is.
I think if someone wants to buy in Spain (probably not wise at present) then make loads of silly offers in the hope you strike lucky. Then another offer on top of your first to compensate for the dreadful exchange rate. 😉
-
@angie wrote:
Mike, I´ve spoken to an English Estate Agent in Spain who has told me that it would be perfectly reasonable now to offer 35% less sometimes even more on lots of properties. He appears to be telling it like it is.
I think if someone wants to buy in Spain (probably not wise at present) then make loads of silly offers in the hope you strike lucky. Then another offer on top of your first to compensate for the dreadful exchange rate. 😉
Seriously? I’m sure you wouldn’t make it up but it’s really incredible, especially as the main show hasn’t even started yet.
-
Hi All
EVER THE OPTIMIST 🙂
AS THEY SAY ? IF YOU WANT TO BE HAPPY ,MIX WITH HAPPY PEOPLE
IF YOU WANT SIT AROUND AND MOAN THEN MIX WITH MOANERS.IF YOU WANT TO BE SUCCESSFUL THEN MIX WITH SUCCESSFUL PEOPLE.
ITS TOUGH TIMES IN MANY COUNTRIES AT THE MOMENT NOT JUST SPAIN AND SOME OF YOU NEED TO GO ON SUICIDE WATCH.
YOU CANT CHANGE THE PAST BUT YOU CAN THE FUTURE AND NONE OF YOU ARE INVITED TO MY BIRTHDAY PARTY.
WHAT KICKS ARE THERE IN LOOKING FOR EVERY DOOM NEWSPAPER REPORT OR SNIPPET FROM SOME FINANCIAL GURU THAT NEVER GETS IT RIGHT ANYWAY.Buying In Spain – It’s Never Been Better! 😆 😆 😆
Despite lots of negative press to the contrary, I truly believe that there has never been a better time to buy a Spanish property. There have been too many reports, none more so than recently, surrounding the decline of the Spanish market and imminent crash that surrounds us. However, by looking beyond the brash headlines to gain even the smallest understanding of today’s market, you will see that in fact, it couldn’t be further from the truth.
If we rewind back to April last year, we witnessed a European media frenzy over the poor state of the Spanish property market. These rumours we can lay at the feet of the demise of Astroc Mediterranea S.A, a construction company from Valencia on the Spanish stock market. Share prices experienced an unprecedented dramatic rise, closely followed by an equally dramatic fall which ultimately led to not only the bankruptcy of the company, but a knock on effect on other companies in the industry whose share price also fell, some quite significantly.
Almost immediately followed a tidal wave of dramatic reports from the likes of Bloomberg which consequently made their way in to our newspapers, about how the so called Spanish bubble had burst and we were all in a terrible mess. They failed to report on those affected share prices rising back up, following what is only a natural chain reaction when one of the largest companies in that sector goes bankrupt.
Now let’s take a look at what the newspapers don’t want you to see. Acciona Infraestructuras, Spain’s leading construction company, are building one of our newest developments, Las Colinas de Campoamor Golf Resort, the largest resort of its kind in throughout the whole Mediterranean. Investment to date for this development alone stands at an incredible 850 million euros, not exactly what you would expect if the market was in the turmoil that we are led to believe it is. The point is this, the Spanish property market is very regional and fragmented and you simply cannot draw conclusions based on the downfall of one company in one city.
I am in no way denying that the market of today is not the same as it was yesterday, of course it has changed rather dramatically. I do however consider these changes to be vast improvements and just the beginning of what we can expect to see in the future.
The first obvious difference is naturally the prices. Spain has always been a popular destination due to property prices being a lot lower than in Norway, the cost of living is significantly cheaper so therefore people were flocking to Spain as an obvious destination for living out their retirement. Spain today attracts a different client with not only higher demands but also a completely different profile. More and more young people and families are choosing the area as their new home, bringing with them various entrepreneurial skills and new business ideas, thus increasing the services and facilities on offer in the local area.
An all too common mistake to make is to compare Spain’s market to the likes of some of the newer markets like Brazil, Cape Verde and Turkey. These countries have really opened up in recent years and are experiencing unprecedented growth. Easy to see why with the world being a smaller place today, destinations further afield are more accessible and travel costs are lower. Infrastructures are basic, facilities and amenities are limited but yes, prices are low. Looking simply at the numbers, Spain cannot compete with these markets on a price only basis.
However, if we revert back to the client, it is also fair to say that Spain is in no way in competition with these countries as it is not offering the same and therefore fulfills different demands. If you want to buy cheap for a short term investment, selling on completion, taking your money and running, then Spain is not for you and you should definitely consider another market place entirely. Looking at how Spain’s market has evolved over the years we can predict what is going to happen in these emerging destinations. Right now, people are snapping up whatever they can get their hands on as they have been promised high returns on their money with rapidly increasing house prices. The supply is there and at the moment at least, the demand is there to match.
Buyers are investors and most of them don’t even think twice about which country the property is in, if the price is right, they will buy. They are not looking for somewhere to move to, maybe not even anywhere to visit, they want to invest, make money and get out. However, this is not going to last, it didn’t last in Spain so why should it last anywhere else. What you will be left with is a lot of properties for sale in an underdeveloped area where no one wants to invest as the next market has opened up. Spain has been through this stage and has come out the other side. Gone are the days of selling en-masse to the investors that are queuing up. We are now selling properties of a much higher quality than before to people that want to enjoy a life in Spain. The market has shifted.
Looking at the Spain of today, specifically the Costa Blanca and Costa Calida where we sell, the outlook is positive. The market has slowed and as I mentioned before, the mass market is not here any more. What we do have is a lot of serious investment from the government, local authorities and businesses to bring more to the area and the residents, both to cope with the demand and to ensure a long term interest in these market places. To highlight just some of the major investments which are going on, there is a new international in Corvera (Murcia) under construction which is expected to open in 2010.
Initial annual passenger volume is expected to be 1.5 million, doubling in the future once all the facilities are fully operational. The budget for the work currently runs at 185 million euros. In Alicante, the airport is under expansion with a new terminal being built at a cost of 436 million euros. This will make it large enough and equipped enough to cope with the predicted passenger numbers of 20 million in 2020. Torrevieja’s new public hospital opened at the end of last year at a cost of 43 million euros, 42 new hotels are coming to the Murcia region, a new desalinisation plant in Torrevieja is well under construction as even though there is currently no water shortage, the local government is making provisions for the future. What you have to ask yourself is why is all this happening? Easy, because the demand and the need are there.
One extremely important factor that we cannot overlook is value for money. We know that prices in Spain aren’t as low as they were but it is fair to say that you get a lot more for your money. Without a shadow of a doubt it is a buyer’s market. Developers are listening to the changing needs and demands of the client and responding accordingly. Gone are the days of panic buying where you end up with a property that you don’t want in an area you don’t like because you feel the pressure of a hectic market place. Builders are only too aware that Spain’s client is not after a cheap property, these are the people that are following the trends and invest in other market places.
Someone who buys in Spain is looking for a second home or to relocate, they want to live in an area where you have neighbours not empty houses, where children can go to local good schools, where you have an excellent healthcare system and facilities, where you can run your own business if you want to, buy the comforts from home and integrate in to a civilised society where you can feel at home. They want to be in Spain.
Spain is far from a collapse. In the past the market was chaotic, houses were selling quicker than imaginable and the high demand was there. It was an unnatural market place for many years, with all the emphasis on quantity not quality and furthermore, was hardly the basis on which to base studies, draw comparatives and reach conclusions. Today, we have a strong and stable market place, where prices are still increasing, only at a slower, more realistic pace. Looking at the figures for the second quarter of 2007, in Alicante we experienced an annual growth of 2.1% whilst in Murcia it was still high at 9.5%. We can put this down to Murcia being less developed than Alicante with a lot of builders recently moving that little bit further south to this area.
We can conclude that the market is changing and stabilising but certainly not collapsing and the quality of what you can by today is a far cry from the situation we have seen in the past. It is an exciting time in Spain, it’s a buyer’s market and quite frankly, it’s never been better.
Written by
Lyndsey Andrew
POSTED BY Just Frank 8)
WHO HAS JUST GOT HIS TIN HAT OUT OF THE GARAGE.
-
-
-
@Just Frank wrote:
Hi All
Hi, Frank.
@Just Frank wrote:
EVER THE OPTIMIST 🙂
AS THEY SAY ? IF YOU WANT TO BE HAPPY ,MIX WITH HAPPY PEOPLE
IF YOU WANT SIT AROUND AND MOAN THEN MIX WITH MOANERS.IF YOU WANT TO BE SUCCESSFUL THEN MIX WITH SUCCESSFUL PEOPLE.
Well, Frank, if you ever want to be fat and ugly hook up with me sometime and we’ll have a few pints together.
@Lyndsey Andrew wrote:
Despite lots of negative press to the contrary, I truly believe that there has never been a better time to buy a Spanish property.
I gave up reading the article when I got to that bit
@Just Frank wrote:
POSTED BY Just Frank 8)
WHO HAS JUST GOT HIS TIN HAT OUT OF THE GARAGE.
You’re looking good, Frank!!! Looking good!
-
-
Hi Frank
This is the same Lyndsey Andrew who wrote on 24 October, 2007
“The property market in Spain is gaining strength again, with prices having peaked and stabilised, there is certainly no need to be alarmed by recent press speculation”.She could take centre stage on the It’s the weekend, time for some humour thread. 🙄
-
-
-
-
Specially for Frank and any other half full types.
The weather has been fantastic all week, gardens are a riot of colour and the air hangs with the scent of orange blossom, so, come on down, make that (low) offer, pick a lemon off the tree and sit with your gin and tonic…aaahh..lifes a peach. No whinging until Monday (unless it rains on Sunday 😉 )
-
-
@angie wrote:
According to Town Crier, 45% of all new builds on the Coast remain UNSOLD, that´s up 20% on year ago.
It takes an average 52 months to sell a flat, and 56 months to sell a villa, in both cases prices would have been slashed no doubt!
although i won’t argue with these stats i will say the following.
Where are these new builds located
At what price are they sellingExample: A development is located at the top of Calahonda, the developers is trying to sell 2bed/2bath, 85m2 aparments for 270.000€ (more or less). I will say the qualities are lovely but the location and amenities in the area are abysmal. Panoramic sea/mountain views
We’ve got a resale going to completion there and it sold for 180.000€ within 3 month of going on the market.and another property 1bed/1bath second line beach, fuengirola, 41m2, 9 terrace, been on the market 4months and sold for 205.000€. partial sea views. no parking
both sold to spanish. The first proeprty beats the spots of most properties i’ve seen, yet the price had to drop 22%. the second droppped 2% to sell.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Developers have forgotten that prices go down as well as up. Their usual reply when someone asks for discounts is that – wait for it – “they don’t need the money”. Yeah I know…..
Having introduced a client recently to a well known developer – not that one on the television, he offered a deal which would have taken the developers entire key ready stock for a discount, in return he would pay a substantial amount of cash in their hand. Bearing in mind that some of the units had been completed, empty and unsold for almost a year, they still took three weeks to turn the deal down.
I have experienced a kind of arrogance with almost all Spanish developers who simply are not commercially minded. They honestly think that no matter how long it takes, their stock will some day get sold for the price they want.
The developers I have known simply have one rule when it comes to economics, cost plus profit = selling price. Whatever the costs involved is not their concern, it is the buyer who has to foot the bill. Now of course, Spain is waking up to a new kind of economics, which is no matter what it costs, the market value is a fickle thing and properties are only worth what someone is willing to pay. Before that was almost anything, now this is not the case.
So the next time you hear another developer go bankrupt or seek bankruptcy protection, remember, they have probably realised that they did actually need the money after all and it was just bravado – unfortunately, bravado doesn’t pay the bills!
AP
-
-
“he offered a deal which would have taken the developers entire key ready stock for a discount” – But what was the discount asked for?
“they still took three weeks to turn the deal down” – Don’t you realise that they would have had to put the proposal to their funders before making a decision and only then would they be able to get back to you.
It could be that the properties were used as security and selling for a drastically lower price, could have been that the developer may be let of the hook a bit as for as guarantees for the funder goes.
There again, as you say that “almost all Spanish developers who simply are not commercially minded”, perhaps you think that they would not to seek approval?“I have experienced a kind of arrogance with almost all Spanish” – and UK and USA and French and nothing to do with them not being commercially minded.
“They honestly think that no matter how long it takes, their stock will some day get sold for the price they want. ” – Do you realise that when a project is funded externally, the developer does not have the last say. May I suggest that perhaps it is yourself that is not “commercially minded”?
“The developers I have known simply have one rule when it comes to economics, cost plus profit = selling price. – and you think that is inique to the developers you know?
Tesco – cost + overheads + profit = selling price.
Whatever the costs involved is not their concern, it is the buyer who has to foot the bill.
So what is the difference.
Do you think it should be cost + no profit = selling price?“Spain is waking up to a new kind of economics” – OK, so it is only us wonderful Brits who ruined the manufacturing industry are any good in business?
“So the next time you hear another developer go bankrupt or seek bankruptcy protection, remember, they have probably realised that they did actually need the money after all” – But their funders would not give consent to dispose at big discounts.
“Spanish will never accept an offer. It is against their nature.” – so if that is the case. why do they haggle so much?
-
There is a lot of truth in mg´s points above.
Tesco is a good example. But then most high street stores are too. Large electrical stores won´t even give you a plug, even though you may have bought 1000´s of pounds worth of electrical goods. Even though the sales people are on a commission, it doesn´t even enter their head to buy the plug themselves, 1 pound, in order they may earn 80 pounds in commission.
What a sad, dumbed-down world!!
-
-
But at the cost of their suppliers, who are in effact they part funders. With their agreement, Tesco will slash prices.
Do you think that Teso will sell at cost, with no profits and overheads included, other that loss-leaders, which often there are loss-leaders on new developments?
Tesco “reduced to clear shelves” – yes, well if there is a sell by date it is accepted. Same as if a developer knew their property would crumble in 1 year, would sell to someone at a reduced price, just to off-load. -
reduced price yes, but not at one where it stacks up! They prefer to save face, spend money looking like they have loads, then let the bank declare bankruptcy
The mindset of the Spanish is incredible and there are prices increasing – even if they dont sell for 10 years or so. In the old days one couldnt get a mortgage, and only a few years ago, so most was from savings and black cash earnings. Most of that went out of the window when the euro came in and amnesty to cash savings, many bought property to spend the money
So, many dont have to sell and will increase by inflationary rate! Crackers!
The best deals are a coupel of weeks before teh bank forces their hand, but then too little time for full due dilligence to get a buyer interested. Its quite a nightmare to work in these conditions
-
If bought for personal use, there is nothing to “Stack up” for.
“They prefer to save face, spend money looking like they have loads, then let the bank declare bankruptcy” You may wish to read my comment regarding funders and who has the last say. Saving face often does not come into it.
Why do so many consider developers so influential, when it is the funders that pull the strings?“In the old days one couldnt get a mortgage” and as it is now happening again, it will help control the idiots who borrow beyond their means and not giving a thought about repayments.
Time was when those who purchased a holiday home could afford them.
“spend money looking like they have loads” yes, they know who the suckers are who take things on face value. Then there are those who would be aware of facts.
-
-
Inez, I don’t doubt that this will be taken as a personal insult, although not intended, but I am certain from your comments that you are not experienced in the funding of multi £/€ developments or have a great deal of insight into the workings of the funding process / warranties / bonds for what can be considered major development, as if you had, you would not be making such observations.
“impossible for a full development or 30-50 units, even at 40-50% discount” – Sorry, absolute rubbish if the development is legal and have all the necessary documentation in place.
-
Hi mg – no insult taken – no I am not personally experienced as I have never bought such volume. In my line of work I have had several developments or part of all fully legal, all licenses in place urgently given to me from developers or thei banks all desperate to sell, exclusivity given for a few weeks but has to go wuickly, usually before the next mortgage payment due.
The pressure they exert is tremendous, calls and visits every few hours!
I have access to large funds, not just pension funds, worldwide via intermediaries I know and work with. also clients in various banking institutions shall we say with access to large sums of money. I send them the info and they have been to see, BUT unless some form of yield can be shown, they are not interested – on the basis that the prices will drop further and when the bank is squealing, they will pick it up from there.
After the info is sent, a report will be undertaken, its not enought o just have licenses in place – after all the reason for the purchase is to make money somewhere down the line, so where does it come from?
As an example I have a development above a 5 star hotel. 164 units keyready and 62% of the bank valuation. It came on in november. December a rep came over and we went to eh site. A full detailed report was made – they were looking at using it as an aparthotel. Unfortunately the numbers didnt stack up and they declined the deal.
I have one in Banus 45% discounted, top end luxury. 61 units – no takers either and Ive had that one for a few months.
And before yu say it must be me – others are now trying to sell them to all areas of the world – no joy.
Reason being is there is no yeild, therefore whats the point – when do you try and get your money back, how do you earn?
Not for nothing have the banks stopped bankrolling developers.
Hence my post.
-
Inez, I read what you write, but this is going away from my point regarding who it is pulls the strings on a dvelopment. The funders or the developers.
Who thinks or are impressed with the alleged wealth of the developers (“They prefer to save face, spend money looking like they have loads”).
No matter what they spend, who looks up to them, unless they are 100% self-funding, when times are bad they have no control over their destiny or that of the company.
“As an example I have a development above a 5 star hotel. 164 units keyready and 62% of the bank valuation. It came on in november” – I’m not surprised it has remained unsold with the current climate, but, you must appreciate that it may need a yield to fund, but if self funding, it is potential which determines if a company will purchase, otherwise, only “safe” investments would be dealt, therefore at reduced yields.
You do seem to rely on that all prospective purchasers for large developments such as hotels, need the 100% support of Banks. This is not true and you know it, even if you don’t have such clients.
I am aware of a hotel chain with a desperate need for 5* business hotels, but would not consider such a location when being in a tourist area, which it must be otherwise why would anyone consider an aparthotel.
The market is bad, very bad, but there are always investors out there who don’t have to go gap in hand to the bank.
The same goes for commercial, residential and holiday premises. -
agree with you and the funds do not need bank money at all, hence they are very carefull in what they invest – they have shareholders to satisfy and who in their right mind would invest here with exchange rate as it currently is and a whole host of reasons.
They are playing the better game, waiting to see how much further it will fall, and in truth once the corner is somewhat in sight, it is then that the investors will buy at the bottom just as its bouncing back.
The developers themselves are the ones trying to save face, the banks put the squeeze onto them and its then once the cash has dried up that suddenyl the panic is on, trouble is by then it may be too late
A bunch of units have to be very keenly priced as the buyer in the main will want to sell them on and make a profit. He may be able to waif a few years, but he will be looking to make a profit.
Very few developers are totally self funding – as banks rolled out their cheap loans, most took advantage and borrowed. They also bought land at stupid prices, all desperate to jump onto the bandwagon. Many expanded into outher coutnries and have fallen foul of the global market problems.
The spanish do have a differeing mentality and unless one deals with them direct or understands that its hard to work out why they do what they do
I know of a swiss chap who has finally taken on a spanish partner in the business as she has been 40+ years in urbanismo and has made fabulous contacts. All developments she can get up to 20% more off the price as she knows who to speak to, which directors have the controlling influence and other such information. Now he has great deals – everyone else gets mucked around.
The days of Franco are vey much alive and well!
-
Regarding your last para., that is business, whatever Country you are in. Contacts count. Only 2 years ago we acquired a commercial premises, which was 1 year prior to the parent company informing management and staff that they were clsin the UK operation down.
Without such contacts, you just get offered the leftovers. -
-
-
-
-
I agree Katy. Someone who posts as much as mg can’t possibly have a job that’s as important as he makes it out to be. Maybe years ago. SPI is probably the only way he gets any convo or interaction. He argues for the sake of it. NEVER anything pleasant to say to ANYONE. I don’t know why anyone bothers to respond to his posts.
Mark thinks Frank and I are argumentative towards one another ( before we became best mates! 😉 ). We’re pussycats compared to “Jaws” mg!
-
The silly little girl Claire has something right at last. I do not have and have not had a job for numerous years. Why would I need a job when I employ considerable numbers of professionals, also, those like Claire and Katy, to do the jobs others don’t like doing.
I do take great delight in reading the comments on here and it makes me understand why in life some just dream whilst others achieve.
It does seem that anyone on here with sense, a brain and or are achievers, are sometimes ridiculed, possibly because others just don’t realise or understand was is being discussed, such as the postings from Inez.
“I don’t know why anyone bothers to respond to his posts.” – I do, because some do have a mind and opinion of their own. -
-
More bad news for Spanish property! (thread title :roll:)
Well it is if you live in Murcia and don’t get your illegal house legalised. You have until January 2009 – get your skates on…..4000 homes under the threat of demolition.
http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_16216.shtml
-
-
@charlie wrote:
You have until January 2009 – get your skates on…..4000 homes under the threat of demolition.
Have just worked out that even if the council opened seven days a week until next January, they will have to process 17 houses per day to meet their own target. Why do I think this is just not going to happen.
-
-
@Claire wrote:
Mg , I’m neither silly, little or a girl. 😆 What a very sad person you are.
Sorry, I was referring to mentality and not age.
“I’ve never seen a more unpleasent person on any forum”
Phewwww and that comes from someone who has associated in the past what now calls, repeatedly, scumbags. Tears for me, sob, sob. 🙁 🙁 -
👿
Please don’t Claire bash mg, have some decorum. Claire is a very nice person who, like a lot of us, had a torrid time at the hands of nasty agents and lawyers who led her a not so merry dance. It’s these bar stewards English agents, dodgy Spanish lawyers and absentee crooked developers who wound 1000’s of people up, wasting years and loads of money, causing untold stress.
It’s no wonder Spain has such a bad reputation for property which still does not get sorted out nor regulated. It’s also very important to warn others of the pitfalls, it’s a bl–dy nightmare for people when it goes wrong, and not just in Spain but all these so called laughable not so emerging markets.
The same crooks are at it in these places too. Makes me mad 👿
-
- The forum ‘Spanish Real Estate Chatter’ is closed to new topics and replies.
