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I’ve been thinking about how things might play out in the long term for the property market and life style in places like the Costa del Sol.
No doubt in the short term it’s a mess, and there’s plenty of pain to come. But I can’t help feeling that in the long term, things don’t look too bad for the better parts of the Spanish coast.
The world is changing, and some powerful trends are working in favour of life style demand for quality parts of the Costa del Sol, the Balearics, and so on. If all you need is broadband and a good airport to do your job, as is the case for an increasing number of people, why wouldn’t you consider moving to Spain, especially if you want to raise children in a more wholesome environment? I know quite a few highly qualified professionals asking themselves this very question.
Spain will never be perfect, but the question is, will it offer a better quality of life than the alternatives? I think so.
That said, there are still going to be serious problems for the next few years, and some areas are too far gone to ever attract wealth-creating human capital in future. But I think people sometimes tend to forget the big picture. I certainly do.
Food for thought.
Mark
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That is a fair assumption Mark.
The way I see it, most people go through phases in their lives.
They get to a level in their career (usually around 35 years old) and for the first time notice younger people coming up behind them with fresh ideas and new terminolgy. At this point, you are also becoming tired of the Rat-Race, you are looking for answers to the age old question “where is all this going”?. You become disatisfied with the consumer society, you begin to look for an easier way to live.
The first thing is to get rid of your mortgage, so, you examine the equity in your property. Then you start looking for cheaper areas to live away from the City. It´s at this point you begin to think about becoming a vegitarian. The Good-life starts to appeal, a bit of land to grow your own produce, a quaint village or the countryside become appealing.
Before you know it, you have resigned from you 45k a year job, bought a house and land in the Outer Hebrides or deepest Andalucia and your partner is doing B&B whilst you are trying to make a living on the internet.
This whole scenario is common and you will notice when it is beggining because you start to listen to your Sting albums again maybe grow a beard!
Yes, if you have the courage and desire to do it, why not? Millions never will and the Spanish climate will never be affected by the credit crunch.
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That is a fair assumption Mark.
The way I see it, most people go through phases in their lives.
They get to a level in their career (usually around 35 years old) and for the first time notice younger people coming up behind them with fresh ideas and new terminolgy. At this point, you are also becoming tired of the Rat-Race, you are looking for answers to the age old question “where is all this going”?. You become disatisfied with the consumer society, you begin to look for an easier way to live.
The first thing is to get rid of your mortgage, so, you examine the equity in your property. Then you start looking for cheaper areas to live away from the City. It´s at this point you begin to think about becoming a vegitarian. The Good-life starts to appeal, a bit of land to grow your own produce, a quaint village or the countryside become appealing.
Before you know it, you have resigned from you 45k a year job, bought a house and land in the Outer Hebrides or deepest Andalucia and your partner is doing B&B whilst you are trying to make a living on the internet.
This whole scenario is common and you will notice when it is beggining because you start to listen to your Sting albums again maybe grow a beard!
Yes, if you have the courage and desire to do it, why not? Millions never will and the Spanish climate will never be affected by the credit crunch.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/feedarticle?id=7465919
A refreshing change perhaps???
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/feedarticle?id=7465919
A refreshing change perhaps???
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For what it is worth, I feel that Spain will come back to the front, once the economic situation is more settled.
Right now, the market has slowed mainly at the bottom end. Let´s not forget that this is not just due to the credit crunch, or perhaps inflated prices in some areas, but cheaper emerging markets.
As Mark pointed out, I too feel the attraction of these will wain, save for Morroco perhaps, which has potential. Marbella, once some legal issues are put to bed, has the best infrastructure of any of the coastal regions of spain, those that you look for holiday homes in. It also contains the highest quality build, and the most expensive properties. All this wealth will not dissappear, and the attraction is still here.
It will take more time, perhaps another 1-2 years at least, however I am confident that the Costa Del Sol at least will pick up. Areas like Almeria, I feel will not, nor the southern Costa Blanca areas around Murica, Alicante, La Zenia. There is simply too much product there.
Well, thatñs what I think, anyway
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Yes, it has never been easier to do remote working. Broadband is good but not in some rural areas. (I would like to know why mine cuts out intermittently around 3pm and 10pm).
There are still some decent spots, close to good airport connections. Think it’s great for young freelancers etc. and also people whose children have left the nest. Personally I would not educate my children here (except at one or two of the better private schools). Many however, do. I know a few whose husbands commute and take long weekends here and one couple, both work on the Oil rigs…they have 3 week on and 3 week off so are based here.
Don’t think this would help clear the thousands of 2 bed boxes they have built though, totally unsuitable for year round living and working from home. It would be ideal an office in some of the nice Villas, watching the Eagles, listening to the many birds. Beats commuting from the suburbs anyway 😉
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Peter
that is good to see. Let’s hope they are right!
Mark
my feeling nowadays is that despite all that has gone wrong, when things settle down, (and if only the building would stop!!!) people will start to come back slowly, but in what numbers will be decided in the next couple of years probably……..
If the powers that be, can install faith in Spains ability to do right by people, when it comes to building, planning, regulation and justice, then why shouldn’t it recover in the long term? If change is not seen to happen though, it will be a very bumpy road ahead i think?
The climate will always be such a huge draw though. I for one, will always love to holiday in the north-med Spanish resorts, depite my loathing for some Spanish and uk agents , lawyers and developers mainly in the south.
Much as i love many things about Spain, climate, space, lifestyle etc, since our dealings, and reading many peoples first hand experience of living in Spain, i appreciate the UK far more these days, and have come to think that the UK on balance is probably no better or worse a place to live. So many pro’s and cons to both for me personally.
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Personally I would not still be here if I didnt firmly believe in the future here. I bought my then young kids out 13 years ago aged 5 and 3. I disagree that the state system is not that good and I had reservations in the beginning, but after I went back to the Uk for 8 months and saw the difference, I realized how good it is here
The teachers in the main really enjoy teaching and are very freindly to the kids. There is a lot of laughter and fun and the ones that want to learn get so much help and attention. They are not afraid of the kids giving them a kiss on the cheek and it is encouraged, kids feel like they belong to another family, and if there are problems its noticed with both you and the school trying to find the root of it.
My daughter and son were both nurtured there and whilst I moved them in the secondary school years to a private SPANISH school, the younger years were pretty much perfect and a delight to have such happiness around.
Both kids have excelled Im pelased to say with my daughter taking her finals in Bachillerato and preparing for university, in Spain, in October. The schooling is extrememly thorough with continuous tests on subjects, not pressurizing but to show where there are holes that need to be covered.
As they both speak/write English too, they were able to have English as their second second language and so speak Spanish, english, french and german as well – all at state level!
Re the lifestyle, well it has to be second to none. Im sure there are other places in the world, but none quite the same as here
Yes there is a lot of build and progress, but then again I remember the days when it took 5 hours to drive from Fuengirola to Gibraltar – no pain no gain! We all want to get to our destinations faster and so the building goes on – its not the back end of beyond anymore. Spoilt? well perhaps, but look at the advantages, and there are many.
Food is getting more expensive, but still not that bad. Work wise, well the internet and networking opens huge doors for those unafraid of walking through. There is no need to live and work in the same place and the future will just expand on this. People will come to live here and more families – I have always said this – therefore the demand will be for 3/4 bed properties with 2 parking spaces, for people to have offices in.
When I first came here it was a lot harder, no opportunities and yet I was not short of work – never have been. Its meant adapting and changing to meet the challenges, but thats the fun of life really – isnt it?
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Mark no where is perfect. The sad part is that the issues which has given Spain the bad name are not serious issues and can be dealt with a firm resolute and vision. Its a pity that the powers to be don’t have the foresight to act upon it.
Inez “When I first came here it was a lot harder, no opportunities and yet I was not short of work “
It just proves that if you are flexible and willing to roll up your sleeves and ready to do a good days work it is possible to make a living.
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Just one curiosity: in this forum, people usually talk about Costa del Sol, or Costa Blanca. Now you are talking about people who could come and live in Spain.
I think CdS or CB can be good places to have vacation (lots of sun hours), and for sure to live are OK too. But I never see mentioning to live in big cities with also good climate, for example, Barcelona and Valencia. Both have good weather, and living there could be more cosmopolite.
Do you think most Britons who are thinking in moving to Spain to live would prefer a “vacation-like” town to live, or maybe they would prefer to live close to a big city?
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farstar, there are many ex-pats who have never been to a city in Spain. To them, Spain is the “strip” and the local community of ex-pats, cheap ciggies and beer and all in the sun.
Cities bring city prices and many ex-pats are there because they find it cheaper than UK (until now).
The ex-pats found in the cities do tend to be different to those in the resort area.
How?
Just look for yourself and you will soon identify the differences. -
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Barcelona seems to appeal to the younger generation. I love Barcelona for a weekend but would not want to live there (or any other City). Valencia I think is a tip despite all the hype.
Think there would be more job opportunities in Barcelona. Only other area I would consider is cádiz or even as far as the Portugues border. Although that region now seems to be going down the golf/apartment route.
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🙄
Not so sure I agree with your long term view Mark nor Solbes´comments after all he is a Gov´t Minister so, like Gordon Brown in the UK, he´s bound to try and talk things up.
Bloomberg TV financial experts with no vested interest say the Spanish economy is on the verge of recession.
Bearing in mind that Spain´s economy is driven mainly by construction and property industry, and tourism, both of which are in the doldrums and will be with exchange rates as they are there is no light on the horizon.
Before that can happen Spain needs to properly address it´s property corruption, land grab rules, get rid of the crooked estate agents, developers, lawyers, notaries, clean up it´s rising immigrant crimewave and stop messing their countryside up with concrete jungles.´They may have to bulldoze much of the mess on the Costas too.
Then everything will be all right maybe sometime way in the future.
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Personally I dont like the big cities and towns – I lived in London for many years – London born and bred, then moved to chesterfield (village) and then to Hartlepool
I have been to Madris twice, Sevilla 3 times (love it there) Cordoba and going to Barcelona in June for a conference, but I am not a fan of too many people and pollution, so I personally preder where I am
Strangely enough there are actually lots of Spanish living in Marbella, San Pedro and even Fuengirola – obviously others on this forum have never met any if they think that its only tattooed ex pat brits who live here!
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SAME OLE SPANISH PROPERTY INSIGHT OUTCOME. 😥
Even the editor has mentioned that at times he is blinkered as many of us are and attempted more of an overview.
However there are some that are not just blinkered but blind.WELL AT LEAST WE HAD A COUPLE OF DAYS WHERE WE HAD SOME BALANCED VIEWS I SUPPOSE. 🙂
SUPRISE WHEN THE EDITOR POSTS BAD NEWS EVERYONE AGREES.
WHEN HE POSTS ANYTHING WHICH GIVES AN OVERVIEW AND THAT THERE MAY BE LIFE AFTER THIS MESS THEN AS WITH SOME OF US THAT REALISE THIS ITS PUT DOWN .“Before that can happen Spain needs to properly address it´s property corruption, land grab rules, get rid of the crooked estate agents, developers, lawyers, notaries, clean up it´s rising immigrant crimewave and stop messing their countryside up with concrete jungles.´They may have to bulldoze much of the mess on the Costas too.”
SAME OLE DRUM BANGING OUT THE SAME OLE SONG FOR YEARS ON END.
WHY CANT SOMEONE CHANGE THE BLOODY RECORD OR AT LEAST TURN IT OVER.Just Frank 8)
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I’ve not posted in ages, but read daily just to keep abreast of developments. Just wanted to quickly share my thoughts. We originally bought in Spain in 2003 and were ripped off by an agent ( english) to the tune of 50000 euros – not the greatest experience, and one we’ve put down to naivety and our over-trusting natures.
The loss was a big setback but it did not put us off Spain, or of buying in Spain, and we bought again in the same town in Huelva province, this time being much more cautious and it’s a shame to say less trusting of those we dealt with. This time we did not use an agent at all, and we are just back from another holiday at our house, where we had a wonderful week, of good weather, good food, great sightseeing and meeting old and new friends. We, quite simply, love it, and do not regret our decision to buy for one second.
I don’t worry that it might be worth less next year than it was last year, and I don’t worry that a glass of wine costs a few euro cents more this year than last. What my young family gain from being part of such a great community in southern spain more than makes up for any short term financial loss that is only a paper loss anyway. We love our house in our little spanish town now and will also love it in 10/20 years time.
We bought for the long term because we love the spanish culture and also the particular town in which we bought. We didn’t buy as monetary investors, but as investors in our family who all benefit from spending quality time together in such a lovely place. I feel so sorry for those caught up in the illegal building mess – that clearly needs to be sorted out soon, but Spain is not all doom and gloom and I am sure there are others like me who are happy with their decision to buy.
Sorry if my positive post upsets anyone, but I am simply sharing my overall experience, and I am not one of those who has simpy been lucky enough to have been untouched by the bad parts of buying in Spain.
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Yep we love it also and since we are not selling in the next 10 to 15 years are not bothered about the capital value. Where would my money be if not in a Spanish apartment? Probably gathering dust and a little interest in a building society or being slaughtered on the stock exchange. Oh what pleasure, fun and joy I would get from that excitement.
Instead, we get out here about 5 or 6 times a year, spending 10 to 12 weeks enjoying the village, sunshine, food, beach, sea and wine. We share all that with friends, family and neighbours.
We rent the apartment for about 25 to 30 weeks year and the income pays for all the upkeep, all our flights, car hire, meals and food, and still leaves a few quid over for other things.
What is there not to enjoy? Is it a rip roaring investment success? Probably not. Does it bring a smile to my face? Every flippin’ day.
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@wigangirl wrote:
We bought for the long term because we love the spanish culture and also the particular town in which we bought. We didn’t buy as monetary investors, but as investors in our family who all benefit from spending quality time together in such a lovely place.
Good for you and in my opinion is how it should be. Uk has become a race of so called investor. Hope you have many years enjoyment in the wonderful country of Spain, with nice people and culture.
In UK people are encouraged to by a house (as an investment) and not a home.
The overseas holiday home is sold as an “investment” and not somewhere to enjoy yourselves in the future.
Bottom line is, as shown by the credit crunch, is so many of these so called invester are penniless and have only purchased by borrowing well over their depth.
I repeat myself but, for the genuine, my sympathy. For the greedy, tough luck. Perhaps, but doubtful, they will learn from their mistakes. -
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wigangirl: I am sorry to hear your initial experience & so pleased that you did and could put it down to experience.
Yes, agree with your rest of the posting. I have always said that Spain is not for investing and it if for enjoying only. I have even said this to my Spanish friends to my determent and they have agreed
If one wishes to invest they should chose London, New York, Paris etc.
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I havent posted on this forum for a while, but I browse it regularly. I agree that in the long term Spain and the CDS will bounce back. I made this exact same observation last year when things were beginning to look bleak. I will cut and paste my comments from then. I think they re still relevant.
Despite all the reports of doom and gloom in Spain, I still remain quite upbeat about Spain as compared to a lot of the new destinations that have become fashionable.
If we look at the CDS, it has the best climate amongst all the new destinations, with the exception of maybe Morocco. The weather here remains quite good throughout the year. Bulgaria is cold in the winter. Dubai is unbearable in the summer…etc.
It is within very easy commuting distance of the UK. Dubai is quite far, as is Cyprus.
Spain has the infrastructure to support the British expats. I am not sure any of the others have such a well developed support structure.
One of the main reasons I am upbeat about Spain is also because I am very upbeat about London in particular. The world’s financial centre is moving from New York to London as E Europe and Asian economies of China and India develop. The beneficiary of this shift in London. It is much more central and accesible than New York.
Spain and the CDS, ticks all the boxes.
I think the present shake out in the property markets here is a very good thing. It means that pepole that are seriously looking for opportunities here have a window to get in.
Spain is down, but I dont know if it is OUT.
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m.g 🙂
Yep I agree with that one 100%. 😆 (probably the first sooo dont get the posting as meaning we agree in general :lol:)
Insulting name calling on an open forum is for some that have lost the argument ,so take it on the chin 😉 (it will come my way very soon so its tin hat time )
Just Frank 8)
AJ Spain . Just goes to show that nothing really has changed then 😉
Enjoy your investment on a personal level and in time the financial side will follow if this is a concern.Have the doom mongers noticed that some that have not posted for a long time are now doing this on this thread. 🙂
LET THE PEOPLE SAY IT AS IT IS AS SOME HAVE HAD THEIR WAY FOR TO LONG
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@mg wrote:
@wigangirl wrote:
We bought for the long term because we love the spanish culture and also the particular town in which we bought. We didn’t buy as monetary investors, but as investors in our family who all benefit from spending quality time together in such a lovely place.
Good for you and in my opinion is how it should be. Uk has become a race of so called investor. Hope you have many years enjoyment in the wonderful country of Spain, with nice people and culture.
In UK people are encouraged to by a house (as an investment) and not a home.
The overseas holiday home is sold as an “investment” and not somewhere to enjoy yourselves in the future.
Bottom line is, as shown by the credit crunch, is so many of these so called invester are penniless and have only purchased by borrowing well over their depth.
I repeat myself but, for the genuine, my sympathy. For the greedy, tough luck. Perhaps, but doubtful, they will learn from their mistakes.I more or less agree with this and it is what I said about the properties we have purchased in spain, or any other country. I do know a couple, living in London who have increased their mortgage as prices have increased. Lived very well, month in the carribean at Xmas, 3 holidays in the med and nice new cars all the time…probably pay back time.
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Goodstich44
As you may know I have one property which I am very happy with and one I have dreadful problems with similar to your situation.
No time for agents talking the market up(as thats crap) or for those that dont allow postings from those that offer positive feed back.
Its tough times and on one one hand I am as frustrated as anyone with how things are but reality tells me that the reasons I bought there are still there today and thats what keeps me as positive as I can be .
The 3 that are happy is 4 that being me ? An occupation licence would help and the return of the deposit on a crap build would be great but thats out of my hands.
WOULD I BUY AGAIN 😕 YEP I THINK I WOULD AS I LOVE THE PLACE.
WOULD I BUY AFTER READING ONE SIDED FORUMS? THEN I WOULD SAY I WOULDNT. 🙂
WOULD I BUY IF THERE WAS A FORUM THAT GIVES A BALANCED VIEW SO I COULD SEE THE PIT FALLS WHILE UNDERSTANDING THE MAJORITY ARE HAPPY THEN THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN AND WOULD BE FANTASTIC.Regards
Just Frank 8)
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Just Frank wrote:WOULD I BUY IF THERE WAS A FORUM THAT GIVES A BALANCED VIEW SO I COULD SEE THE PIT FALLS WHILE UNDERSTANDING THE MAJORITY ARE HAPPY THEN THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN AND WOULD BE FANTASTIC.
I am 100% sure that the majority of people who bought because they liked a place in Spain, Italy, France, Turlkey,Greece, Cyprus,etc are happy.
The question is whether one should buy in April 2008 or in April 2009 or in April 2010.
I think that the later the better. Meanwhile one should do homework, travel, create a shortlist of places and see each one in big detail. Do not rely on rumors and hype.
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Ralita
If they want a place in Spain then those from the U,K would have to consider their options very carefully indeed due to a major factor and thats the exchange rate.
Other than this and if its for long term do your homework and hopefully a deal can be struck between a buyer and seller at a price that suits them both.
If the market goes down from that point then as financial gain is not the motivator which has in part contributed to this mess then enjoy their new home or second home and the market will return in time.Just Frank 8)
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Hi Goodstich44 🙂
oh Frank, …….we do have a larf on ‘ere don’t we. Good to see you sending comical posts still!
Oh yep laugh a minute mate 🙁
Charlie computer fine and great to see Goodstich44 comment which is of course very difficult to post when the sh-t is soooo deep.
Back to Goodstich ? Not sure if you feel my postings are commical or the Jokes but just posted another which I think you will like
Just Frank 8)
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Thank you Goodstich.
Why is it that those it seems who have a vested interest in property i.e. estate agents, developers, lawyers, mortgage lenders,and Gov’t Ministers whether in Spain, the emerging markets or UK keep banging their same old drums desperately trying to talk the market up.
Whereas the economists, analysts and many other learned people with no vested interest who just study the reasons actually do try and tell the truth which in turn stops so many people getting ripped off.
Is Frank an agent, I’ve never asked the question?
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Some information here: http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=139293
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So Imagine the chaos if UK ever tried that.
What is the problem with people on here. They think all Countries are bad, corrupt, slow with decision making, indefrior legal system, etc., etc.UK, do we have such a clean and healthy legal system?
Before replying, how many cases do you read where criminals get off on technicalities?
The major UK property investor with a huge portfolio of residential properties, charged with murder, threw in a fortune to his defence team and carries on as ever.
The property “tycoon”, imprisoned for corruption and now has funds of billions for acquisitions. Yes, we are still talking of UK.Next, so why the hell do they bother to live or visit Spain if it is so bad?
Please don’t respond with the people are so nice, they are the ones that voted their Government in, so obviously they are happy with what goes on. -
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goodstich44
Have you ever had any dealings with the UK legal system?
The is a serious question and not meant to be patronising.
I for one have and while my story is long and probably uninteresting to you, the basics you should be aware of is that I was charged by a solicitor £42,000 for a £12,000 claim against a landscape gardener. The claim was settled out of court for £6,000, i can only guess at the bill if he had to go to court. I’ve had to engage a new solicitor to fight my original solicitor who has now retired through ill health. In addition this has been going on for six years.
I’m probably in for about £60,000 if I loose.
I have other not so extreme examples if you care for further anecdotal evidence of OUR wonderful legal system.
Regards
Paul
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Angie ❓
Is Frank an agent, I’ve never asked the question?
Frankly its none of your business and if you check my postings I am involved in fighting for justice in Spain for many people including yours truly.
I just choose not go around felling sorry for myself being a complete saddo and blaming everyone but me.
Spain has many problems,so has everywhere,whatever your experiences which makes you so bitter you appear to strike out at everything regarding Spain or anyone that opposes your blinkered views.
Second dig on 2 thread,s today hopefully this will be the last or do I have to get the ole tin hat out again 😉Have a good weekend
Just Frank
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P800aul
i’m really sorry to hear about your dreadful situation. Without knowing both sides of the story, it’s hard to comment on the legal side. I am in no doubt though that there are many cases of injustice in the UK courts. Many have been treated badly, i wouldn’t deny that, and think i would be a fool to do so.
For me, yes, sadly i have been involved with our legal system on several occasions. I have owned my own business for 18 years. Had companies gone bust while owing us money, customers with no intention of paying, health and safety issues, VAT issues, transport issues, planning issues, people issues etc etc……
In all my dealings though, private and business in the UK, i have never been treated as badly, lied to as much, faced unbelievably poor regulation, and to top it all, met with a justice system which is so slow, poor and in many cases corrupt, that’s little more than a sick joke for many honest people.
Yes, i was naive, believing that a paid lawyer would work for us, it’s what one expects in the UK!.
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I had problems with a sale of the house through a lawyer’s (Well, Solicitor) delay etc in the UK. cost me two months in lost rental. I reported him to the Law Society and after about 8 months I was fully compensated.
Comparisons don’t help though if you have just lost a hundred thousand in Spain, it doesn’t help the matter if it is as bad in the UK!
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katy
a good point. What chance of Spanish equivalent helping you against a dodgy lawyer……none!, which is obviously why so many have been able to get away with daylight robbery for so long, same with dodgy agents and developers. I have a close friend in the UK who is a builder. He’s sick to the teeth of how strict the regulation is here now for building. He feels he can hardly do anything without it being checked and checked again. What a contrast!!
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Do you mean a solicitor like this Goodstitch????
http://www.which.co.uk/reports_and_campaigns/c … 136005.jsp
Not an isolated case either.
All in the UK is great and all in Spain is corrupt? I don’t think so. Both countries have problems, It isn’t black and white/good and bad in either country.
I had a bad buying experience in Spain. I have had a good one too. I had a bad buying experience last year when moving house in England. The seller of the house we were trying to buy pulled out of the house sale on the morning that we were to exchange contracts. Because of the buying/selling laws in England, we were left to pay all our costs (thousands)with nothing to show for it, escept a lot of stress and heartache. We didn’t even get an apology!!!
I dealt with dishonest people in Spain and also people of the utmost integrity, some of whom have become family friends. I’ll say it again, it isn’t all doom and gloom in Spain, and this forum should reflect that.
Karen
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Yes, I think the selling system in the UK is a farce when people can drop out on a whim. As I said though it doesn’t help people caught up in all the problems here. It’s about as relevant as my Husband says to me when I complain about the weather here…”It’s even worse in the UK” 🙄
I have never had a bad experience buying or selling here…luck maybe! I do know if I were to have a bad one I would NEVER buy again here.
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Katy – you talk about your neighbours (sorry couple in London) living the good life with 3 holidays away every year, sunshine breaks at Christmas etc, and you assume that they fund this through remortgaging.
You sound like the ‘i told you so’ brigade. Assuming these people did remortgage to fund their lifestyle choice, well unless they intend selling up anytime soon, what’s the problem?
Every property market runs through cycles – some large cycles (boom / crash) some small cycles (drops in regional areas / stagnating prices). It sounds to me like your neighbours are living life to the full and their many holiday experiences will no doubt help them through a few barren years, before the market takes off again.
Property for many people is their biggest asset / investment. But don’t live life so seriously – if you can make your investment bring you some fun and enjoyment then grab the opportunity with both hands! Life is to short and if we constantly spend time looking at making money and only making solid investment decisions etc. we miss out on the whole point of it in this first place! Improved quality of life.
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I more or less agree, just using my friends as an example and they have lived well and do not have any difficulties in paying the mortgage. Was just pointing out that the ones who have done this and now cannot pay have only themselves to blame.
Taking life seriously…moi? I have been on holiday for the past ten years 😉
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Wigangirl wrote:
I had a bad buying experience last year when moving house in England. The seller of the house we were trying to buy pulled out of the house sale on the morning that we were to exchange contracts. Because of the buying/selling laws in England, we were left to pay all our costs (thousands)with nothing to show for it, escept a lot of stress and heartache. We didn’t even get an apology!!!
We had exactly the same experience two years ago. At the point of release of contracts , our solicitor was told by our vendors solicitor that his client was not going to sell as he had lost the house he wanted in Scotland.! Because of Scottish law he was not able to buy until he had sold his. As we were the last in a chain of 6( 😯 ) this caused a huge problem for our buyers because they had exchanged contracts along with the rest of the chain. The next day the vendor said he would sell to us for another £16,000, £11,000 over his original asking price. We said NO! None of this was down to any fault of our Solicitor. Both they and the Estate Agents acting for us and the other guy, did all they could to try and make this chap see reason. The EA’s offered £2,500 each of their commission to get the house sale through, all to no avail. All this happened because of the flimsy conveyancing laws in the UK. Fortunately, our Solicitor had insurance to cover this eventuality and the whole thing cost us £25.00.
The lawyer handling our case in Spain was corrupt from the outset, telling us lie after lie. We have denounced them and have a Court case pending (with no expectations of seeing any justice served. )This lawyer has already been suspended for a “brief” time by the Collegio de Abogados.
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Hooooray, It seems that some are realising that the laws in Spain and UK can work for and against you and that you can get iffy lawyers and agents in both Countries.
Incompotence and time wasting whilst costing money?
What about the commercial lawyer who acted for a landlord in UK on the letting of a premises at a rental c£500K p/a but forgot to include the review, upwards only, after 5 years. When the landlord realised after the fourth year, action was taken against the lawyer’s PI and 4 years on the battle goes on, whilst the landlord loses out on rental growth. -
Katy – fair point. I just often read about people wishing the property market to crash just so they can sit back (as they always do) and point at those people prepared to throw the dice and try to live a little.
I often read articles in the Times / Guardian (normally the letter section) accusing BTL landlords / or persitent remortgagers of everything from housing shortages, high house prices to the bad weather!
For sure, some people will get lose out; investors that are greedy or not educated (buying 2/3/4 off-plan flats in leeds / manchester / costas etc).
I read a great quote recently (which i think you will like) when refering to those people that have over-exposed thesfelves to the property market.
‘Its only when the tide goes out do we see who are swimming naked’.
Enjoy the remainder of your holiday!
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U.K Justice 😈
When I had a plumbing and heating company a local respected building company had the plumbing and heating works condemed on a contract they were on.
They called us in and the owner had us carry out works running ito £20,000.00 over a month and this allowed the contract to be completed on time.
The owner refused to pay.
Took the guy to court running up £10,000.00 of legal fees,had all documentation including letters/signed time sheets from the developers regarding our service and how we saved the day.
When we got to court the defendant simply said that we had never done any work for him and didnt even know who we were
The judge asked if we had any photos showing our engineers in staff uniforms on the site.and when we said we obviously didnt he awared the case to the defended and we had to pay his costs as well. 👿Spain is clearly bad but we are not to far ahead.
Just Frank 8)
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I meant to say Frank, that when TV progs/newspapers/magazines tell people to make sure they choose a good or honest agent, and lawyer etc in Spain, who does one go to for honest advice in Spain?
I now wouldn’t know who to trust there anymore, personal recomendation some might say but even that could be flawed, probably is because very often people don’t like to admit they’ve been caught.
They are probably agents who are honest, trouble is so few of them and how do you find them?
One agent at last has told me the market will fall further in Spain and to make offers a third less or more, a refreshing change methinks.
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If people think that the law is so clear cut and on their side in UK and that all solicitors are honourable, it is no wonder that so many get caught when seeking professional advice and purchasing overseas.
The agents, solicitors overseas and in the resorts must look up from their desks and just see €s on legs walk in through their doors. Believe all they are told (guaranteed rental income, 15% growth per annum), and then listen to them when they advise a lawyer to use. -
Angie
Getting a tad tetchy Frank?
You don’t seem to know the difference with ‘feeling sorry for oneself’ and ‘pointing out to newbies etc all the corrupt goings on in Spanish property’.
Based on our experiences we will continue to expose the scams involved in Spain and elsewhere!
ANGIE 🙂
You have clearly had a bad experience with some estate agent firm in Spain hence your captions at the end of each posting.
Getting tetchy ? Silly posting as I was just pointing out that while Spain is bad the U.K is not perfect either.
GET REAL ?
MOST OF THE PAIN WAS CAUSED BY U.K Estate agents working that market and they were as bad as the lowest of the low in Spain as you will find out if you get yer head out of the sand pit .
It was them that placed their clients in the hands of corrupt developers and solicitors( told to trust them ) as they walked off with their fat commissions without a moment of thought of the lives they ruined.
You carry on with your vendetta against every single Spanish person ,their country,I will take a more balanced view that the majority are no better or worse than over here.
Who do newbies trust in Spain ? Dont know just dont trust the so called U.K agents with “Your in safe hands with us as a good start.”
I will carry on with facts that its a lovely country with a sector that have brought a sad shadow over their fellow countrymen.
You carry on blaming everyone but yerself including me by all accounts 😉
NOW REMIND ME. WHAT IS THE NAME OF THIS THREAD?Just Frank 8)
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good morning
these discussions mainly come back to our own experiences, and those we feel post with honesty. I still feel in the long term, the UK will always be a safer bet, even with current problems, due to supply and demand, much stricter regulation, and corruption in some form, not virtually being accepted as ‘part of the deal’
I still love all the reasons we wanted to buy in Spain in the first place. I still love the counrty, it’s just some of those who run it and regulate it, (or more often not) i detest with a passion.!!
Had we gone through a decent agent, lawyer, developer, then i would have no real grounds for complaint. Had Spain got basic common sense rules and regs, that we have in the UK, this wouldn’t have been an issue. If i made a mistake, then that was it. My trust in legal bodies. The off-plan gamble with regard to ‘boom and bust’, or economic turnaround was down to me. I have always accepted that you make your own bed.
At some stage though, we all have to trust some legal body. The fact that so many have been let down at this stage, despite trying their hardest to make they follow correct procedure, has left me with very little faith in the Spanish system.
Each to his/her own. I don’t care how much ‘doom’ is posted. If it’s a fact, it needs exposing, for everyones sake. People are also posting positive, and that’s great, lets hear that as well.
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There you go again Frank spouting off that I and others are against every Spanish person, completely wrong, most Spanish I´ve met are very nice people, it´s just their corrupt property sector that I will continue to aim at.
Bearing in mind that Spain allows UK agents etc to rip fellow countrymen off Whose fault is that, Spain´s or the UK´s? Spain´s Gov´t has been weak, tardy, and completely at fault for not regulating things, and it´s Court procedures taking 5 years or more is a complete joke, who is at fault there, Spain of course.
We who bang the same drum do it to warn others, so whilst Spain is a nice country especially inland away from the grotty Costa Blanca and Del Sol methinks you´re are the one with your head in sand if you´re not aware of the problems.
Of course the UK is not perfect otherwise people wouldn´t be leaving, but it´s property and legal industry is far more regulated than many countries.
Take it you´re not an agent then not that it´s my business, mind you any agent that continues to rip people off ´will be my business´if I choose! 😉 8) 😆
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Katy
while we are on UK grumbles, why do we have to follow ‘euro’ rules in so many things, but when you write to your MEP as many of us have, to put pressure on Spains dreadful system, the stock answer is ‘We cannot interfere in another country’s laws on this matter’………SO WHAT’S THE BLOODY POINT THEN!!
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Goodstich – I think the best tack to take is ‘we don’t want the EU to interfere in another country’s laws, but they can interfere when Spain is acting against people’s Human Rights……such as the Land Grab and bulldozing people’s homes when Spain’s own local councils granted the permission. From what I read, I think this is Michael Cashman’s approach now.
Instead of finding ourselves Litigation lawyers, maybe we should be looking for Human Rights lawyers. 🙄 -
goodstich44 wrote:when you write to your MEP as many of us have, to put pressure on Spains dreadful system, the stock answer is ‘We cannot interfere in another country’s laws on this matter’
Sorry Goodstich, what would you want your MP to do first? Take care of the severe education system problems? Take care of the severe NHS problems? Take care of severe
youth drinking, drug abuse and sexual offense problems? Take care of enviromental problem?Or take care of Spanish property problems?
Which problem do you think would bring more votes to him/her?
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There are enough MPs/MEPs to tackle these problems ralita…they just don’t ..in an effective manner. Take severe youth drinking. What do they do? Put excise duty on alcohol, but allow pubs to stay open 24hours a day!NHS problems? They allow any one to walk into this country and get NHS treatment regardless of the fact they have not contributed a cent towards it. Those of us who for tens of years have paid NHI, cannot get dental treatment without paying privately. I could go on, but it does my blood pressure no good at all. 😉
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Much of the miselling in Spain was done by UK estate agents based there and in the UK at these property shows, they were the lowest of the low blatantly deceiving people who trusted them.
Estate Agents in Spain were, and still are pretty much unregulated, and the blame for that must lie at the door of the Spanish Gov’t and the Mickey Mouse agencies spuriously set up to protect buyers such as FOPDAC (i believe) and the newly formed AIPP whose Members include the large rogue and often crooked agents who started the whole lucrative ball rolling.
Unfortunately, Spain still allows thes gits to practice with impunity and more people will fall foul of them unless they are constantly exposed. 😉
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Angie 🙂
Well its still going on in the U.K Estate agents today with the biggest selling through Ma–a.so not alot has changed in reality and they will be linning up again when the opportunty arises.
Once a greedy bas–rd always a
Where is the regulation here ?
Spain cannot,will not or are able to sort the corruption as it is on a scale no one could ever imagine.
I have some couples that I am trying to help who stand to loose everything where a simple issues of a habitation licence would at least give them a fighting chance.
How this mess will be sorted I like most am at a loss to be able to see how a solution can be found.
However somewhere there must be a future and hence I feel that Mark started this thread.
I am 100% behind the injustice in Spain or any country and just love to see a company exposed.
Think it will be a long and painful road and as Goodstich44 posted we need to see the corruption exposed with a reality check that most are happy and some are really trying to move forward and are at times desperate for any better news that helps them through.
You keep giving s-um grief, 😉 I will just keep trying to try to find positives though have to admit its getting to be a full time job 😥Just Frank 8)
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There are two angles on this.
First is trying to sort out the mess that people have got into (for whatever the reason) buy buying off-plan.
The second being to safeguard future buyers from mis-selling, etc.,
Surely, if there is mis-selling being carried out in UK, by UK agents and on UK property (hotels and exhibition centres), then that is something the UK Government can do something about, but I don’t read much on here saying how corrupt our Government may be for not doing something about it.“Think it will be a long and painful road” – I don’t think anyone in their right mind would dispute that.
“we need to see the corruption exposed” – we have and are doing, yet there are still a certain percentage that are still buying off-plan. So what is wrong with them?
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I’m not anti Spain per se it’s just this blooming corruption especially with property sales, and that’s why back to the topic, Long Term I think the future for Spain is bleak if they don’t sort it out.
Personally, I’d like to see them expel those agents, developers and even lawyers who started it, the Gov’t know who they are but still allow it to go on because of the huge revenues involved. Then once expelled, regulate the industry properly.
With current exchange rates and a glut of properties plus all the bad Press, things won’t change for years maybe.
I could resolve things in a flash if they employed me, I would only want 100k salary, plus a few million in backhanders (oops sorry that’s already been done before), so no I don’t think I could sort it really. 😉
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The difference between buying off plan in Spain and the UK. In Spain you have to put down 30% deposit and then stage payments until completion….whenever that may be! In the Uk you put down a holding deposit of around £1k-5000k , 50% being retained by the developer if you do not /cannot complete. LFO’s don’t come into it!
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Hi
The corruption will never be sorted it will be transfered to other areas.
Areas in the headlines today will be yesterdays news and be the safest place to buy.
The most corrupt have moved on with the mess left behind them with the near perfect opportunity for the established trusted agents and solicitors to take that market forward in say a year or two.
U.K estate agents need to be bought under some sort of regulation to help stop the supply of future blood supplies.
For the future purchasers we start with sorting the U.K agents aspect of overseas property and have them accountable as relying on Spain or any other country to self regulate will be a complete waste of time.
For any E.A or solicitor in Spain to be able to deal with U.K REGULATED agents then they to would have to be subject regulated approval with a compensation proceedure to cover mis-selling..
This way we just may start to make in roads in stopping poor souls making the same mistakes as those in the past.
The way we are going we are chasing the symptoms instead of finding the antidote.
To bring any confidence back to the market it will need people to feel there is regulation that WILL protect them and in the U.K we start the ball rolling ourselves.Just Frank 8)
How am I doin 🙂 -
Claire, you also have to pay 5% or 10% at exchange of contract usually 21 or 28 days after putting the reservation down.
If, you have a dodgy or prohibitive terms of the lease, which your solicitor points out and you cannot get the developer to change them, than you should get your reservation back. I have done it twice.
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😆 😆 😆 bad workmanship, planning issues and building time and breach of contract goes against the builder, not the buyer as a rule, due to strict regulation. 😆 😆 😆
Like those featured just a couple of weeks ago on TV in UK??You will probably find that the majority of property purchasers throughout Spain are thoroughly happy with their deal and what they bought, as in UK.
Just as there are some who have had a terrible deal and that is in both Spain and UK.
It is just the bad (guess the minority) that the media loves to report on. -
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I have to say, probably the biggest problem Spain suffers from is the local and regional planning departments.
Forget bad agents for a moment and ignore ignorant developers.
I know of many, many large decent and honest developers who have recieved building licenses and have begun building only to be stopped by the town hall or provincial government whilst they investigate how or why planning was given. It usually transpires that the local town hall had no right to give building licenses or had wrongly processed the application.
Secondly, provincial government can suddenly hit the developer with environmental impact studies or similar.
Thirdly, a town with a corrupt mayor who comes under investigation usually has all licences suspended or revoked while investigations into possible irregularites are carried out.
In all the above cases, building is usually delayed, in many cases for months or years.
Often the developers cannot get around this and end up giving money back in cancellations. They can be well out of pocket if they have paid the agents their commission at the first stage. It is only then that some resort to brown envelopes, just to be able to get on with building and finishing the job. Usually they don´t see a profit until the final balance so it is in their interests to get it finished. That´s without the prospect of should they finish it, town halls take months to issue LFO´s.
I have to say that clients, agents/sub agents, developers and even lawyers can all be victims of town hall madness.
I would have to suggest that this is where the clean up begins. Local mayors are often elected to power with no idea of civic proceedures. They were probably farmers or bakers before and suddenly they are in a position to be courted and bribed, the feel important. Mixing with the wealthy and powerful, it doesn´t take much for them to see a financial gain, often without any thought of the consequences. That is why so many are caught and end up in prison.
Deal with this awful civic shambles first and follow on with regulation and the justice system overhaul. We have to remeber there is such a thing as the Codigo Civil, usual this should protect the people but only when the legal system is free from corruption.
MEP´s really don´t stand much of a chance, and honestly they really don´t care.
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@Peter Good wrote:
I have to say, probably the biggest problem Spain suffers from is the local and regional planning departments.
I know of many, many large decent and honest developers who have recieved building licenses and have begun building only to be stopped by the town hall or provincial government whilst they investigate how or why planning was given. It usually transpires that the local town hall had no right to give building licenses or had wrongly processed the application.
……provincial government can suddenly hit the developer with environmental impact studies or similar.
….a town with a corrupt mayor who comes under investigation usually has all licences suspended or revoked while investigations into possible irregularites are carried out.
In all the above cases, building is usually delayed, in many cases for months or years.
100% correct Peter. This was certainly the scenario for the development we were buying on, and also for many others in and around Marbella.
The problems were compounded by the developers giving bribes in the first place. -
“You will probably find that the majority of property purchasers throughout Spain are thoroughly happy with their deal”
I, agree with the above, whether its UK/Spain, the bone of contention is that how and with what action is taken by the developer, when things go wrong and with what inconvenience and cost to the buyer.
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I’m sorry Peter, but I can’t agree with you on this one.
You say: “I know of many, many large decent and honest developers who have recieved building licenses and have begun building only to be stopped by the town hall or provincial government whilst they investigate how or why planning was given. It usually transpires that the local town hall had no right to give building licenses or had wrongly processed the application”.Any ‘decent and honest’ developer worth his salt would ensure that his plans were in accordance with the PGOU before he applied for a building licence thereby not needing to corrupt a town official . And thereby not needing to put himself in the exposed and risky situation of having his development halted.
Why did the local town hall have no right to give certain building licences?
Because they were situations where the building application went against the Junta’s PGOU.Why did the Junta (provincial government) stop construction/start an investigation?
For the same reason as above.Why did the town hall issue such building licences?
Because brown envelopes were passed.For me, any developer caught up in a halted project paid a backhander to the town hall to get his licence.
Developers got away with it (brown envelopes for projects that went against the PGOU) for years, but because the can of worms has been well and truly opened, they’re all now crying ‘foul’. Hopefully when this practice grinds to a halt through arrests and/or they know they just can’t get away with it anymore, it will be one step towards turning the tide against corruption. -
I have been visiting this site for a number of years.
On and off, I look for a change in perspective about the Costa del Sol particularly and Spain in general.
I keep hoping that I will see a break in the seemingly endless tirades particularly against agents, lawyers, developers.
I keep hoping that someday this forum will balance itself out, and the bickering, bad mouthing and often disturbing attitude of a few, many of whom do not even live here, or own property here, will even itself up.
I read Mark’s initial comment, and thought this would be at last an interesting thread to follow, and so it was at the outset, and I thought – yes – some balance and hope here.
But now no, off it all once again turns, to corruption, evil misdeeds, and the like. It is so depressing to read you all.
And frankly, I think you are all tired and lost down a thousand threads of perpetual drivel, you repeat yourselves endlessly. Don’t you know we got the message a couple of years ago, don’t you realise that there are so few new visitors to this site that you have turned them all away? They are not listening to you.
We understood you were unhappy, we understood that you were victims, but I am sorry, I think you are all now very lonely people.
Especially some of you who make thousands of posts, positioning yourselves as the arbiters of what is right and wrong about Spain, and in particularly my view the Costa del Sol.
Just because you say so, does not make things so. However…
There is no denying the coast here is facing troubled times. I think Mark referred to it in his excellent market review as “The Perfect Storm”, I think people in the real estate business know it, lawyers and developers know it, and certainly the government knows it. And of course we residents know it
But the rest of the world has caught up, and is suffering too.
Our area and life here will suffer some turmoil for a year or two for sure.
But I for one love life on the coast.
I celebrate and enjoy living here, it is a fantastic area, it has been for decades, and it will be even more so for decades to come.
The improvement in our infrastructure has been immense, the quality of our lives here is second to none. I have worked and rested here, and enjoy the company of a huge number of like minded people who are very happy here.
With an eye to the future, I see the progress toward a new airport that will bring a staggering capacity of 20 million visitors in a few short years.
There will come the metro all along the coast, further new roads, hospitals, schools, and a host of other services and metropolitan elements that will further enhance this coastline particularly as the California of Europe.
A title to be despised? Or realised?
I was here over 20 years ago, when the airport had a capacity of just a few million visitors, an almost cow shed type terminal. I was here when there were few urbanisations and when we had to travel an hour or more to visit a hospital or shopping centre.
I don’t harken for those days, the coast has been developing for more than 40 years and it is not going to stop, and nor should it.
The coast has a vibrant, exciting and dynamic future ahead of it.
It is called progress and the foundations have been laid over decades.
Over development. No, I don’t think so. Rather we are now light years ahead of any other area in Europe and though you may have lost sight of the fact, it remains that we are the lifestyle and location choice of the majority of Northern Europeans.
The future is strong and bright.
The volume of construction and development over these past years is in line and pace with the development of the airport and infrastructure, what is the point of a 20 million capacity airport if there are only homes and room for the 12 million of a few years ago.
The coast will develop over the next ten years into one of the most cosmopolitan areas in Europe, a true reflection of the European community working and living together.
I count all European nationalities as my friends and work colleagues, I remember things as they were here and I know they are now better, and if I want stunning, unspoilt beaches I travel 60 minutes to Tarfia, if I want stunning and unspoilt countryside and mountainous views I travel only a few miles inland from the supposedly overbuilt coast.
Has there been some unfortunate build? Yes. Did some people believe that all would turn to gold in theirr property purchase? Yes.
Does that mean it is all over? No, it has only just begun. And this is now bad thing, you people have mostly got it wrong, and you certainly do not see the big picture, you are I am afraid to say – too small minded.
People bought for investment in the late 80’s and lost out in the early 90’s, people bought soundly in the mid 90’s and were agog when the investment boom came around again in first years of this decade, and were rueful when lo that boom naturally ended again, and we now sit back and wait for calm, balance and time to sort things out once again.
And it will, as it has ever done, I do not recognise you guys on this forum.
You are so miserable, your conflict internecine, your outlook so perverted and distorted by your endless posting and destructive discussion.
You are so sad in truth. You have lost the plot. You haven’t a clue what you are talking about at the best of times, and you are so badly wrong at the worst of times.
Move on. Look ahead, recognise what Mark was asking at the begining of this post, there are literally tens of thousands of people who are delighted with their homes here, their lives here, their future here.
They don’t even know this forum exists, and they would consider you a host of lost and mindless souls if like me, they ever meandered into look upon your squabbling ways, your continual rants over the same topics.
Get a life. Get out in the sunshine more. Go take some Spanish lessons, take part in the vibrancy of Spanish culture. Go play a round of golf. Go have some fish and salad on the beach. Go outside take a look around you, talk to some other people for a change.
And if you are in England, stop telling us your story of how bad it is to live here, we are tired of you talking about issues you know nothing about.
Many people, nay tens of thousands of people bought well here, invested well here, and will see the return on both their lifestyle and investment decision return in spades.
We are here enjoying our lives and good times are now certainly ahead once again, there is a mess to clear up for sure, but some of us can tackle that with a smile on our face, a light heart and know that we have been here before and we will bounce back again.
Because there are few comparable places in Europe or the world at large to live in.
So now I leave you to rip me apart for my views, that is the inevitable consequence of posting on these forums, whose intentions at the very outset were very worthy and helpful to many, but once again I have to say, have been so debased for quite some time now.
Thank you and goodnight!
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@charlie wrote:
I’m sorry Peter, but I can’t agree with you on this one.
You say: “I know of many, many large decent and honest developers who have recieved building licenses and have begun building only to be stopped by the town hall or provincial government whilst they investigate how or why planning was given. It usually transpires that the local town hall had no right to give building licenses or had wrongly processed the application”.Any ‘decent and honest’ developer worth his salt would ensure that his plans were in accordance with the PGOU before he applied for a building licence thereby not needing to corrupt a town official . And thereby not needing to put himself in the exposed and risky situation of having his development halted.
Why did the local town hall have no right to give certain building licences?
Because they were situations where the building application went against the Junta’s PGOU.Why did the Junta (provincial government) stop construction/start an investigation?
For the same reason as above.Why did the town hall issue such building licences?
Because brown envelopes were passed.For me, any developer caught up in a halted project paid a backhander to the town hall to get his licence.
Developers got away with it (brown envelopes for projects that went against the PGOU) for years, but because the can of worms has been well and truly opened, they’re all now crying ‘foul’. Hopefully when this practice grinds to a halt through arrests and/or they know they just can’t get away with it anymore, it will be one step towards turning the tide against corruption.Charlie, my post was aimed at my knowledge of developers and town halls in Murcia/Costa Calida.
The CDS is a very different province regarding PGOU/JDA and methods by developers.
Murcia is years behind when it comes to the methods of the big developers in CDS.
The Murcia provincial government is becoming more savvy regarding planning applications, probably from national pressures.
3 or 4 years ago, virtually anything within reason was accepted due to Murcia provinces aims to become a major tourist and relocation area. They would de-classify agricultural land virtually on request. Now they choose the areas for planning consent in the same way as JDA. This has caught out many of the experienced developers who now have to understand the planning departments vision rather than just creating it through applications of their own choosing.
Yes of course the brown envelope mentality has always existed and probably always will, however, with the recent PW case, the reproccussions of being caught are far more serious compared with the innocent “good old days”.
Developers will just have to become more attuned to modern European planning practices. Which probably means they will have to be more descrete in the way they cosy up to the town halls. Spanish developers will have to visit their cousins in the UK to get a real grip on price fixing cartels though!
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@Peter Good wrote:
Charlie, my post was aimed at my knowledge of developers and town halls in Murcia/Costa Calida.
The CDS is a very different province regarding PGOU/JDA and methods by developers.
Murcia is years behind when it comes to the methods of the big developers in CDS.
Hi Peter –
then I stand absolutely corrected by you re. my comments regarding your original post.
I admit my knowledge/experience concerns the CDS. Hope no offence taken. -
@charlie wrote:
@Peter Good wrote:
Charlie, my post was aimed at my knowledge of developers and town halls in Murcia/Costa Calida.
The CDS is a very different province regarding PGOU/JDA and methods by developers.
Murcia is years behind when it comes to the methods of the big developers in CDS.
Hi Peter –
then I stand absolutely corrected by you re. my comments regarding your original post.
I admit my knowledge/experience concerns the CDS. Hope no offence taken.Absolutly none Charlie. My limited knowledge of the CDS has mostly come through this and a few other forums and on reflection I feel safer practising my work here on the CC from a self preservation point-of-view. 😉
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Interesting post, but as always it returns to the Costa del Sol and the problems in that part of Spain. Really it should be renamed the CDS Property Forum (Moans Only). Occasional visitors may regard the situation as all doom and gloom, but at least one other part of Spain does tell a slightly different story. In the Emporda area of Catalunya, there are still restrictions on new build, which are nearly always villas rather than 2-bed apartments. Values have risen steadily, at least since I bought in 2004, and if they have stabilised now, that’s no bad thing. Unlike the CDS, there are still buyers since very few Brits move to this area and the Euro fluctuations don’t affect buyers from Spain, Holland and France etc, the usual purchasers of holiday/long-stay homes in this area. As for renting, the season is short, but every week of rental for our four-bedroom home has been taken from mid-June to mid-September has been booked at up to 1600 euros a week. Oh, and I forgot to mention, it’s the most beautiful part of Spain. There is some positive news about Spanish property, despite what SPI forums would suggest.
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colinB wrote:least one other part of Spain does tell a slightly different story. In the Emporda area of Catalunya, Oh, and I forgot to mention, it’s the most beautiful part of Spain.
Sorry, we forgot. It is always different where we live…
You mention CDS, I add Almeria, Costa Blanca and Murcia as regions with big problems.
You mention a 3 month season in Catalunya. You could have bought in Bulgaria and get a similar season.
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I find it curious that the likes of rob-fuengirola and hearsayharry say how they’ve been ‘watching’ or ‘popping in and out’ of the forum for many years. Then all they say when they finally do post is about 100 lines of slagging the forum/members off ….and then disappear again, having contributed absolutely nothing to any actual thread subject. 🙄
It really makes me wonder why, if they’re so happy with life, why they bother with such a fruitless exercise.
Hearsayharry’s list was:
You are so miserable
your outlook so perverted and distorted
You are so sad in truth.
You have lost the plot.
You haven’t a clue what you are talking about…a host of lost and mindless souls 😥
What was it they used to say to Mary Whitehouse who complained about the tv programmes? If you don’t like it, you needn’t switch on.
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charlie, you and me and quite a few others here are often castigated for our views as biased, anti Spain and all that, by those I’m convinced are either involved with property in Spain, or, have some vested interest in not seeing things get worse (as it will this year), maybe because they are stuck with unsaleable properties etc 😉
Now, most of like Spain, the people and the country, NOT THE BL–DY CORRUPTION that’s gone on too long and not rectified by the SUSPECT SPANISH GOV’T!
I like Spanish people a lot, (Icouldn’t eat a whole one though), they are generally friendly when you get to know them.
So long as we continue to state the problems in Spain the better for everyone longterm. 😉
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Hi
Investment Builds Confidence in Spanish Property Sector
The sub-prime credit crunch in the US has entered a new cycle and the recent announcement of the closure of nearly half of the estate agents based in Spain continues to dampen enthusiasm for overseas investment. This has not deterred Spanish developer and construction company ‘Noriega’s’ decision to invest €90 million into the Realia Group in a bid to instil confidence, in what is perceived by buyers as a flagging market.
The investment represents a 5% buy into the Realia Group. The venture, under the guidance of Noriega’s parent company, the Sanchez Ramade Group, demonstrates not only faith in the market but also its belief in the long-term future in the building sector in Spain.
The Realia Group was formed in 2000 as a result of the merger of the developer division of FCC and Caja Madrid, and is one of the leading development groups in Spain specialising in promoting, and managing a wide range of properties in Spain, France, Portugal and Poland.
The deal brokered through International investment Bank, Goldman Sachs, and International lawyers, Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer, follows a €425 million investment by the Sanchez-Ramade Group in Spanish energy giant Iberdrola.
Eugenio Sanchez-Ramade Garcia-Conde, Managing Director of Noriega UK, commented on the investment. “Noriega and Realia share market sector but complement each other with different sections of the market. The Spanish property market offers many opportunities for investment for the buyer looking to purchase a second home. Improved infrastructure and transportation added to fantastic air links along with the weather make Spain an ideal choice for property investment. Spain is now a mature market, so I am certain the recent turbulence in the property sector will stabilise and confidence will return.”
There is no denying a slow down in the Spanish property sector, which when you consider the astounding growth over the past decade and a half is not surprising, but the fact is that properties in Spain still recorded growth in 2007. Property prices continue to rise above the standard headline rate of inflation in Spain, which is admittedly higher than other parts of Europe and the UK.
What is missing from the current climate and some may say from the media in general, (though things are starting to improve with the media) is a more combative approach from developers, and a sustained and level-headed response to the situation. Everyone knows bad news sells and it does not take many bad news stories to start undermining confidence in anything, let alone a property sector that is exposed to a variety of factors that can affect the market.
Noriega’s UK director, Eugenio Sanchez-Ramade Garcia-Conde sees its investment in Realia as just one component to begin challenging the perception of hard times ahead for the Spanish property sector. “It is difficult for developers and constructors to work in isolation. There have been calls for a more unified approach from with our industry to start addressing issues concerning planning and the property market in general. We cannot ignore the fact that 2008 will be a challenging year for the property market in Spain and the holiday and second home market in particular, but there are many positive factors that we should concentrate on. Spain continues to be the number one destination for UK buyers when looking at a home in Spain and it will be for a considerable time. The close proximity, the favourable climate, improved infrastructure and transport, and the friendly Spanish people make Spain an ideal choice. I cannot see these factors changing.”
If the road ahead is a little uncertain one thing for sure is that Spain will not be in isolation to any perceived (or otherwise) market forces, all countries selling holiday homes or second homes will be affected.
Written by
Darren Laws
Darren Laws is a freelance writer and has contributed articles on Spain to many publications.
Posted by Just Frank 8)
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I think Noriega are a little premature in their purchase of Realia Group.
If they were to wait until the end of the summer they could almost certainly have paid less as the present share price will reflect the anticipated buying season. From October onwards, the share price would be lower because everyone knows the buying season will not materialise.
The statement regarding the pro´s of investing in Spain are obvious, climate, popular tourist destination for e.g. Nothing new there.
I question whether Spain is still No1 for British buyers, I thought Australia had claimed that one in the last few months. Look at the extract from the statement by Noriega’s UK director, Eugenio Sanchez-Ramade Garcia-Conde – “Spain continues to be the number one destination for UK buyers when looking at a home in Spain“ ❓ ❓ That´s like Dan Quayles statement on US education “We’re going to have the best-educated American people in the world.” ❓
I´m far from convinced.
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This article appeared on SPI in March…
http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/temp/0803-noriega.htm
To add to my comments above, there is a less cynical view to take. With Spanish property companies tendering for lucrative government contracts, the Realia aquisition could be insider knowledge of a pending contract being awarded. They have 50% of their assets in Commercial property in Spain and France.
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Peter Good 🙂
Why not ?
The forum believes every single posting on negatives from each and every newspaper including The Sun and The Star so as this appears to be the source of information that some members use as factual information,why is it that this is not considered as positive.
It will be dismissed as a load of c-ap and the same ole anti Spains will be bringing out the ole drum. 😥Watch ? Next we will have . Load of rubbish , the corruption,the scumbags,the agents that lie,etc.etc will have to be sorted before any of these positives can be believed and that will be never.
In the meantime I suppose these idiots that have spent this fortune and the massive investment in airports shopping centre,railways havent a clue what they are doing will be for the grave.
They should really have taken the time to get advice from one or two on this forum regarding Spains corruption and lying agents before being sooo
very stupid.
Surely anyone that views the S.P.I realise that Spain has no future.WHY COULD THEY NOT UNDERSTAND THAT 😕
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I´m not sure what to read into your post Frank.
And not wishing to mis-interpret what you have said, I can only say that regarding the “others posters” you refer to, I don´t have a problem with their views, positive or negative really.
Most of the regulars here have a credible knowledge and history of the Spanish property market. I many cases, probably better than many of my fellow Agents. They are well read on the subject and many have experienced the good and the bad.
Speaking as an agent myself, I would say it is a shame that more potential buyers don´t read their posts, it would certainly help them to ask the right questions of an agent.
No offence to you Frank, as I enjoy many of your comments, but I don´t agree with the label negative posters. As an agent, I cannot be optimistic about my industry or many of the people who practice the proffession, I wish I could, but it just doesn´t sit right with me.
It is a poor prospect at the moment, so I don´t see negative comments, but, just people telling it like it is. I´m not being gloomy about it, and I don´t think the people you refer to are either, just frank, if you´ll excuse the pun. 😳
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As this thread is entitled – Long term things don´t look too bad – We still need to see the US market start to rise first and the link below doesn´t show that yet.
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Peter Good wrote:As this thread is entitled – Long term things don´t look too bad – We still need to see the US market start to rise first and the link below doesn´t show that yet.
I guess hungry people won’t care much about buying properties…
Rationalising of Rice:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080424/ap_on_bi_ge/wal_mart_rice
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I would agree with your view of the long term Mark. I believe lifestyle properties will always be in demand.
More and more people in the corporate rat race are asking the question “what is this all about” broadband and regional airports have made the aspiration to have a balanced lifestyle more possible.
The fundamentals of how business is being done are continuously being challenged across the globe. More recently we have crisis facing the global food industry and the financial industry.
I do believe that things always have a habit of coming a full circle, local food is much in demand, lifestyle is more important that materialism and much hyped businesses not build on solid foundations are being found out.
The property that has all the potentials to be a good home will always hold its value.
Peter
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😥
Good property well located anywhere tends to hold it’s value but Spain’s ratio of good seems to be overshadowed by too much cr4p property on the 2 big costas.
As for it’s long term future I’m not so sure who will eventually buy all the rubbish, or, want to live/holiday in the overdeveloped areas.
A couple of friends of mine have lived in Andalucia for over 20 years, seen it when it was beautiful etc but now so fed up with how the coast and country is being spoilt, both have been victims several times of crime, (I’m talking serious crime – guns etc), seen how the Spanish cost of living has risen as an effect of going into the euro, how the Guardia are crooked, and just what agents will say and lie to get that fat commission. They are heading elsewhere as a result of all this.
If this means banging on again Frank/Dan then so be it, because it’s fact.
The sooner Spain addresses these problems the better for all concerned, but they won’t will they, too much money at stake for their suspect economy. 😉
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But don’t you realise that for every bad tale like that there is a good tale where everything is well?
Just remember, there are good and bad tales in UK. Immigrants who can tell tales of poverty, hunger, crime, living in slums. Then you have the flip side where an immigrant has come here, and has nothing but praise.
So what’s news?
It is called life and the way of the world.
Do you expect everyone to have good expeiences and an easy way of life, with everything in the garden being blooming? -
😡
Thanks for the lesson mg, but I will pass on the bait thank you.Meanwhile whilst we all realize there are 2 sides to stories it’s just a pity those with a vested interest in ripping people off in Spain just simply do not like the truth being told to naive purchasers based on our experiences.
I’ve said how nice Spain is away from the Costa grot, how good property holds it’s value everywhere generally, how nice the food is, the weather etc it’s simply that the scammers will continue to operate big time in Spain all the time their weak Government let them.
I wonder why just about every property on the big costas either have a combination of wrecker bars, alarms, security, gated complexes, 2 big barking dogs (perhaps its for aesthetic reasons)etc etc and why every other property in many complexes is up for sale?
Now please tell me when Spain will regulate this industry properly and restore confidence in the market? The same will apply to many of the so called emerging markets. BUYER BEWARE! 😯
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@angie wrote:
😡
Thanks for the lesson mgit’s just a pity those with a vested interest in ripping people off in Spain just simply do not like the truth being told to naive purchasers based on our experiences.
their weak Government let them.
I wonder why just about every property on the big costas either have a combination of wrecker bars, alarms, security, gated complexes, 2 big barking dogs (perhaps its for aesthetic reasons)etc etc
BUYER BEWARE! :shock:_________________
Why do some agents lie continuously?1. The lesson, no problem.
2. If that is correct, agree 100%
3. UK Government being so strong!! Even allowing the sales shows in UK, which if illegal, why are they allowed to do so?
4. Agree, wherever they are buying, but you can’t hold the hand of everyone and despite the warnings, people still buy.
Possibly for every agent who lies continuosly, knows there are those who will take it in and beieve is Gospel. Just like the scampeople who tell you that you have inherited 10.000.000 and want your details. Some do respond. -
I have never found crime one of the issues here. Of course, there is the usual tourist crime (which happens in any tourist area anywhere in the world. I feel much safer here than in the UK. The worst incidents are around the tourist blocks when locals know there are holidaymakers coming and going.
Rejas (bars) have always been a feature of spanish houses long before the country had experienced tourists. Because of the hot weather you can go to bed and leave the windows open or as in my case leave a window open for the cats!
Not saying there isn’t any crime but not on the scale as the UK. never has been an issue for me.
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i’ve been coming to spain on holiday every year since i was 12, and i moved here 9 year ago. After living in London i moved to mijas pueblo. It was a dream, lovely white village, real spain, etc…
Really got involved with the local spanish and just kept away from foreigners unless thye spoke spanish. Amazingly ( 😉 ) they were happy with all the development going on! Some of these people were donkey taxi drivers, others worked in kiosks, etc… but they wanted to become electricians, hoteliers and so on.
The lovely old andalucia is all nice and good for tourists but not for people looking to work and raise children. There was no future here for either yourself or your children.Now? vast improvements being still made to the infrastrucutre (railway, roads, etc…). Remeber when water/electricity cuts were common? not anymore.
There are currently attempts by many areas in the province of malaga that are trying to diversify, they realise tourism is always going to be very important, but there are more tech parks, poligonos industrials, shopping centres….
The junta the andalucia also has plans for reforestation program that will be both beneficial to nature, and help conserve water and act as a carbon sink.
With teh new train lines in place, many of these currently less than desirable built up urbanisations will become satelitte towns as people will be able to commute to the largers towns for work.
Towns are also improving their images, all bins are being placed underground, desolate land and dry rivers beds are being turned into parks, old roads are being redone more efficiently to have lareger pavements with green spots, etc…To me its a great time to be down here, in a place that looks to the future and is growing (with growing pains along the way…)
And i do have a vested interest here. I own a property and i’m raising my 2 daughters here.
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Fuengi
good to see positive reports, and some interesting points from you about the improved infastructure. Two sides to every story and all that…….
From your point of view, (putting aside the corruption/regulation/justice issues), do you think then that the explosion of housing development is a fair price to pay for the improvements made to day to day living?, or would you prefer it how it was when you was 12?
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@goodstich44 wrote:
Fuengi
good to see positive reports, and some interesting points from you about the improved infastructure. Two sides to every story and all that…….
From your point of view, (putting aside the corruption/regulation/justice issues), do you think then that the explosion of housing development is a fair price to pay for the improvements made to day to day living?, or would you prefer it how it was when you was 12?
personally? I prefer it alot more now. Of course there are eyesores and i’d be more than happy if a large part of benalmadena or calahonda/riviera were bulldozed over and turned into green zones/forests.
Personally i think no more licenses should be given out to build, if a builder wants to build, then let them buy disused land and rebuild on that. Unless its for VPOs, although forcing some of the illegal builds to become VPOs could make sense…But lets be honest, for a long time most of andalucia has been a backwater with a large population.
To develope they/we have had to use the natural resources available. Which in this cased is the sun/weather. Unlike iron or oil this cannot be exported to other markets so these markets had to be brought here.Do you think that when a population is poor they are fussed about losing some farmland to make way for an urbanisation? The only difference down here is that its been done in record time. Also there has been the population shift, people moving from the interior to the coasts for work and a better life.
I’m hoping to see more development in the future. We’ve gone through the residential phase, we’re now going through the commercial phase. Shops/restaurants/businesses opening in and around all these properties. As this happens, these properties become alot more interesting to people who live here. As most don’t want to use a car to buy milk. Prices are also dropping in these areas because all thats on offer is the property itself. brits can offer them cheaper due to the pound. So suddenly there are many more affordable properties on the market. If people live all year round there, and not just 2 weeks during the summer, more businesses will open to cater to them, etc…
just re-read what i’ve written. i realise its a bit all over the place, i blame lack of coffee 🙂
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All that before a coffee Fuengi? I’m impressed. 😉
I think it’s unrealistic not to want or expect all services (roads, shops etc) to improve with the years, and the housing development that comes with that is a natural bi-product. The name of the game is that all development and improvements are done with care and with sympathy to the environment and general surroundings so any negative impact on the way of life is kept to a minimum. Unfortunately, as with many governments including the UK, there has not been the careful forethought and planning. It has been often guided in my view by greed or ignorance, and this has been the problem.
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@charlie wrote:
All that before a coffee Fuengi? I’m impressed. 😉
I think it’s unrealistic not to want or expect all services (roads, shops etc) to improve with the years, and the housing development that comes with that is a natural bi-product. The name of the game is that all development and improvements are done with care and with sympathy to the environment and general surroundings so any negative impact on the way of life is kept to a minimum. Unfortunately, as with many governments including the UK, there has not been the careful forethought and planning. It has been often guided in my view by greed or ignorance, and this has been the problem.
That will happen now & in the future. But i feel that is was unrealistic to have expected this before. People care more for their surroundings when they are better off.
As i mentioned in a post earlier you have the towns trying to increase the green areas available. This is a course nice for a bit of biodiversity, but it also makes economic sense as it increases property values. -
@katy wrote:
New developments are still taking place. Saw a large one taking shape yesterday in Calahonda, bulldozers just started!
Looks like things are slowing down around Alicante. The number of licences granted for the construction of new property there has fallen over the first quarter of the year by 80% when compared to a year ago.
Expect there are a lot of already-granted licences around though.http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_16331.shtml
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The slow down is the only option and one day the market may just catch up.
In poor areas I fear that this may be a very long time indeed.
One additional problem will be crime in developments with only limited occupancy.
Just had a friend who came back from Majestic Hills and breakins are common but only looking for cash.
Slept with a base ball bat alongside his bed and next door he had a hammer.
They will need to get on top of this or the way forward will never be good.Just Frank 8)
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@Just Frank wrote:
The slow down is the only option and one day the market may just catch up.
In poor areas I fear that this may be a very long time indeed.
One additional problem will be crime in developments with only limited occupancy.
Just had a friend who came back from Majestic Hills and breakins are common but only looking for cash.
Slept with a base ball bat alongside his bed and next door he had a hammer.
They will need to get on top of this or the way forward will never be good.
Just Frank 8)this problem will only stop when these devleopments are no longer seen as only holiday homes. at the end of the day the people that break-in are opportunistic thieves.
and although i am quite positive about southern spains future, i don’t know if the market will catch up with prices. The reason i say this is that so many people bought at the end of the property cycle that they are simply never going to get a full return on their investment.
An example:
Ms X approached us about selling her off-plan property near Mijas Golf. She purchased it 2 years ago for 280.000€ (all cost incl.). ALthough from the plans & show flat it will be lovely, she can not expect to sell at anything close to that price. Problem is she can’t complete. Even without knowing hte original price, we valued it at a maximum of 210.000€. More than likely it will sell for about 190.000€.
Problem is she put in 30%, around 80.000€, so whether she sells it or pulls out she will have lost her entire investment.
At the current rates the area the property is in will not develope for alt least another decade if not 2, so no matter what happens the market is never going to catch up.
Wheareas someone who has managed to big up a ‘ganga’ in the last few years in one of the coastal towns, is going to make money on their property in the next 2/3 years. -
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@shakeel wrote:
Fuengi, can you please explain “who has managed to big up a ‘ganga’ ” I also keen to know what do you mean by “ganga” as I have never heard this before. I know that there is river in India called “ganga”.
a client just bought a 3 bed, 2 bath apartment. 83m2 + 15m2 terrace. parking, storage for 215.000. sea views, 15 mins walking from fuengirola centre, 10 mins to beach.
Block is 6 year old, and were originally sold for 180.000€.a real bargain was about 10 months ago. 200m2 townhouse, 60m2 of terracing. enclosed double garage, 5 bedrooms, 3 bathrooms. 315.000€ in Los boliches fuengirola.
From my epxerience the only people that have been really caught out are the ones that bought in urbanisations outside of the towns/centres where there are few amenities. But then again people that bought 8 years ago could still sell and make a profit now.
@Villan wrote:
Should not have mentioned someone in dire straits. I can sense some personal abuse around the corner 😕
she bought to sell before completion. she believe the prices owuld go up and she could sell it. she was wrong. Makes no difference whether it was avarice or due to dodgy estates.
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@Just Frank wrote:
3 Beds + 2 Baths all in 83m2 ? Rooms must be very small ?
Does it have a kitchen ?Just Frank 8)
ha ha.
yes it does.
ithe bedrooms each hold a double bed. But there is no wasted space, unlike most properties that have long hallway & such. -
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