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Having lived in Spain now for 5 years, we have become somewhat detached from everyday events in the UK, whilst I rarely read UK newspapers we do have that big dish so catch up with some english TV. It seems that everytime we watch the news or documentary programme it revolves around knife and gun crimes, yob culture, ASBO’s etc, etc. (or problems in the Spanish property market) 😥
Has the fabric of society in the UK really got that bad, or is the media painting the picture worse than the reality. Obviously the question has been prompted by the shooting of the poor eleven year old.
We have on numerous occasions considered a return to the UK but with a twelve year old son ourselves incidents like this do make us think that if not for our sake then our sons his future is better and safer in Spain.
Please this is a genuine question, with sincere motives, not an agent trying to discredit the Uk and play up Spain.
Ta
Jim
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Hi Jim,
I am an agent but also a mum of two now strapping kids of 15 and 17 years. I moved from the UK 12.5 years ago and whilst the motivation seemed to be the weather and culture, it was actually through fear for my kids future.
I was borne in London and grew up around there. At 13 my parents bought in Kent to give us kids a better life and the freedom at the time was wonderful, woods within a short walk, had a horse etc etc. Then back to London. After marrying and with both small babies we moved to Hartlepool, near Newcastle and I was petrified of the kids playing in the front garden as at the time there were varying reports of children being snatched. One distinct memory I have is of pushing son in buggy along the main road on the pavement with daughter happily skipping a few yards in front and the knot of fear in my stomach about how easy it would be for a car to pull over, snatch her and go before driving off!
Thats apart from my husband (6ft 2) taking the kids to the local park and having a 10 year old threaten him with glass and then saying you cant do anything to me mister, I will have the police on you!
After coming here I felt so safe – yes crime does go on and you can get run down, but still much better that the UK. Also the community spirit abounds, neighbours will look out for each others kids and this country actually likes and welcomes them!
I think what did it for me was on one trip back to the UK my two were waiting outside a pub with their father as there was a sign saying no kids. Someone with a dog went inside and they were both disgusted that dogs could go in but they couldnt! (made me laugh though!)
So, a hard choice but certainly I would fight tooth and nail to keep my two here – from the reports the gun culture in the UK seems to be getting worse and the youth seem a bit out of control – discipline is so poor there are no deterrents at all.
Its going to bo your choise in the end, but I would think a 12 year old would be loving the weatther, the freedom and being welcomed everywhere with his parents.
Good luck in your choice.
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Hi Jim,
I am an agent but also a mum of two now strapping kids of 15 and 17 years. I moved from the UK 12.5 years ago and whilst the motivation seemed to be the weather and culture, it was actually through fear for my kids future.
I was borne in London and grew up around there. At 13 my parents bought in Kent to give us kids a better life and the freedom at the time was wonderful, woods within a short walk, had a horse etc etc. Then back to London. After marrying and with both small babies we moved to Hartlepool, near Newcastle and I was petrified of the kids playing in the front garden as at the time there were varying reports of children being snatched. One distinct memory I have is of pushing son in buggy along the main road on the pavement with daughter happily skipping a few yards in front and the knot of fear in my stomach about how easy it would be for a car to pull over, snatch her and go before driving off!
Thats apart from my husband (6ft 2) taking the kids to the local park and having a 10 year old threaten him with glass and then saying you cant do anything to me mister, I will have the police on you!
After coming here I felt so safe – yes crime does go on and you can get run down, but still much better that the UK. Also the community spirit abounds, neighbours will look out for each others kids and this country actually likes and welcomes them!
I think what did it for me was on one trip back to the UK my two were waiting outside a pub with their father as there was a sign saying no kids. Someone with a dog went inside and they were both disgusted that dogs could go in but they couldnt! (made me laugh though!)
So, a hard choice but certainly I would fight tooth and nail to keep my two here – from the reports the gun culture in the UK seems to be getting worse and the youth seem a bit out of control – discipline is so poor there are no deterrents at all.
Its going to bo your choise in the end, but I would think a 12 year old would be loving the weatther, the freedom and being welcomed everywhere with his parents.
Good luck in your choice.
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There does seem to be a lot in the news recently about guns and kids. However, the fact that the shooting of an 11 year old is the first item on any national news broadcast and on the front of national newspapers is precisely because it is so unusual. When does the death of an 11 year old on the roads (a much more common – but just as tragic – event) ever make the national news? By relying on the media reports it is easy to let the fear of crime become out of proportion to the reality.
I accept that there are places in Britain where you would not want to go (especially after dark), but these are few and far between and probably exist to some extent in most countries. I live in a large city in the Midlands and am happy to travel around the city and for my children to do the same. Always remember that the media do not report the lives of most people but, rather, concentrate on the extremes.
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There does seem to be a lot in the news recently about guns and kids. However, the fact that the shooting of an 11 year old is the first item on any national news broadcast and on the front of national newspapers is precisely because it is so unusual. When does the death of an 11 year old on the roads (a much more common – but just as tragic – event) ever make the national news? By relying on the media reports it is easy to let the fear of crime become out of proportion to the reality.
I accept that there are places in Britain where you would not want to go (especially after dark), but these are few and far between and probably exist to some extent in most countries. I live in a large city in the Midlands and am happy to travel around the city and for my children to do the same. Always remember that the media do not report the lives of most people but, rather, concentrate on the extremes.
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In every Country, city and town there is good and band, even in some village communities. Often people only see the good or the bad, it depends on your lifestyle.
Many, due to wealth, are fortunate to live in areas which are fairly safe and secure, maybe even on a gated development.
When in a foreign country, I usually take a cab trip and ask to be driven through the areas I would not want to be in, just to get a balance and see what the other side is like.
The shooting, tragic as it is, but it has got a way of life and don’t try and say that this never happens in Spain. -
In every Country, city and town there is good and band, even in some village communities. Often people only see the good or the bad, it depends on your lifestyle.
Many, due to wealth, are fortunate to live in areas which are fairly safe and secure, maybe even on a gated development.
When in a foreign country, I usually take a cab trip and ask to be driven through the areas I would not want to be in, just to get a balance and see what the other side is like.
The shooting, tragic as it is, but it has got a way of life and don’t try and say that this never happens in Spain. -
I agree in part with bradness – there are areas which are somewhat “untouched” by the current lawless activities. However I have been researching some of these issues (as part of preparation to undertake a legal qualification) over the last 2 years.
I fear that it would not be an exaggeration to claim that as a whole the fabric of our society in UK is becoming more confrontational and aggression lead. We would probably have to go back to the early part of the 19 century to find a similar scenario within highly populated areas.
Yob culture and gang related lawlessnes in particular, seem to be on the increaseWhat certainly has changed is the level of disclosure, speed and accuracy with which incidents like the ones mentioned are reported. It is this process that is highlighting the level of crime and bringing information quickly in to the public domain.
As bradness says there are “no go” areas in most countries – the number of these in UK certainly seems to be on the increase.
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I agree in part with bradness – there are areas which are somewhat “untouched” by the current lawless activities. However I have been researching some of these issues (as part of preparation to undertake a legal qualification) over the last 2 years.
I fear that it would not be an exaggeration to claim that as a whole the fabric of our society in UK is becoming more confrontational and aggression lead. We would probably have to go back to the early part of the 19 century to find a similar scenario within highly populated areas.
Yob culture and gang related lawlessnes in particular, seem to be on the increaseWhat certainly has changed is the level of disclosure, speed and accuracy with which incidents like the ones mentioned are reported. It is this process that is highlighting the level of crime and bringing information quickly in to the public domain.
As bradness says there are “no go” areas in most countries – the number of these in UK certainly seems to be on the increase.
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Certainly I wouldnt and did not say Spain was crime free – far from it. There are shootings (mainly drug gang orientated), rapes, robberies, domestic murders, beatings and the rest
I am not so naive to think it is all roasy and unlike some tourists, not so daft to go out and leave my home unlocked with windows open.
However, I do feel safer, in all the time I have been here I have not felt or indeed been threatened in the slightest.
Youngsters out and about are not abusive, but friendly and smiley. If you have to ask them to be a bit quiet or to not kick a ball around, they apologize, smile and move on, not abuse and swear and gesticulate.
I am sure there are places, many of them in the UK which are safe etc. I lived from a small village in Kent, to the centre of London, then the midlans and then in Hartlepool – I have some experience and felt that over the years things were getting worse.
People dont like success and wealth, nice cars are targetted and keyed as this is now the mentality – if I havent got it, then Im taking it from you!
Yes the shooting of an 11 year old got ontpo the paper as it was ‘unusual’ but then a few weeks ago a 16 year old was shot and others have been a well.
Each to their own I guess, its a free world – allegedly
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Certainly I wouldnt and did not say Spain was crime free – far from it. There are shootings (mainly drug gang orientated), rapes, robberies, domestic murders, beatings and the rest
I am not so naive to think it is all roasy and unlike some tourists, not so daft to go out and leave my home unlocked with windows open.
However, I do feel safer, in all the time I have been here I have not felt or indeed been threatened in the slightest.
Youngsters out and about are not abusive, but friendly and smiley. If you have to ask them to be a bit quiet or to not kick a ball around, they apologize, smile and move on, not abuse and swear and gesticulate.
I am sure there are places, many of them in the UK which are safe etc. I lived from a small village in Kent, to the centre of London, then the midlans and then in Hartlepool – I have some experience and felt that over the years things were getting worse.
People dont like success and wealth, nice cars are targetted and keyed as this is now the mentality – if I havent got it, then Im taking it from you!
Yes the shooting of an 11 year old got ontpo the paper as it was ‘unusual’ but then a few weeks ago a 16 year old was shot and others have been a well.
Each to their own I guess, its a free world – allegedly
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i think anywhere where discipline and respect for others, in particular parents and the law has broken down for whatever reason, there is potential for these hidious crimes. I feel it all starts with the home situation and sadly now schools also seem to have their hands tied.
To some degree we have made our bed and now must lie in it. On top of this, glamourising violence and gangs culture through various media aimed at young kids, can’t be good.
Also, we are a small over crowded country. If you take serious incident percentage per population number, i’m not sure that the UK is worse than anywhere else?
Sadly, i have to say i really hope the creature that did this crime is caught and dealt with harshly, however young. The punishment must fit the crime to set an example, otherwise what hope for change? The parents of the murdered child deserve this at the very least.
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i think anywhere where discipline and respect for others, in particular parents and the law has broken down for whatever reason, there is potential for these hidious crimes. I feel it all starts with the home situation and sadly now schools also seem to have their hands tied.
To some degree we have made our bed and now must lie in it. On top of this, glamourising violence and gangs culture through various media aimed at young kids, can’t be good.
Also, we are a small over crowded country. If you take serious incident percentage per population number, i’m not sure that the UK is worse than anywhere else?
Sadly, i have to say i really hope the creature that did this crime is caught and dealt with harshly, however young. The punishment must fit the crime to set an example, otherwise what hope for change? The parents of the murdered child deserve this at the very least.
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Seems to me that our children in the UK are gaining less protection.
An abyssmal ruling by a Judge in England yesterday:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2317335.ece?Submitted=true -
Seems to me that our children in the UK are gaining less protection.
An abyssmal ruling by a Judge in England yesterday:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2317335.ece?Submitted=true -
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I was prompted to ask the question a)because the thought of returning to the Uk does sometimes become a consideration as I said, but b) because the same day of the shooting we had allowed our twelve year old son and some friends to catch the train from our local town and go to the Terra Mittica theme Park at Benidorm without any adults, this is what has made me really think, would I even consider allowing something similar at his age in the UK.
The big issue for me seems to be that in Spain there does appear to be respect for adults, police, authority etc. My son has said that it is not unfamilair for kids to get a clip round the ear at school, it didnt do me any harm at school so I have no issues with this. There is also respect for the police as well be it local or Guardia, and I am pretty sure that no parent will be threatened with the police or social services when disciplining (within reason) their children.
The jury is still out but I suspect that an impending 2 week vacation in the UK will help make up our minds
Jim
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I was prompted to ask the question a)because the thought of returning to the Uk does sometimes become a consideration as I said, but b) because the same day of the shooting we had allowed our twelve year old son and some friends to catch the train from our local town and go to the Terra Mittica theme Park at Benidorm without any adults, this is what has made me really think, would I even consider allowing something similar at his age in the UK.
The big issue for me seems to be that in Spain there does appear to be respect for adults, police, authority etc. My son has said that it is not unfamilair for kids to get a clip round the ear at school, it didnt do me any harm at school so I have no issues with this. There is also respect for the police as well be it local or Guardia, and I am pretty sure that no parent will be threatened with the police or social services when disciplining (within reason) their children.
The jury is still out but I suspect that an impending 2 week vacation in the UK will help make up our minds
Jim
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peterparra, so which city in UK are you comparing with which in Spain?
Not all cities in UK are the same and the media loves the sensational stuff.
I have visited cities in Spain and have been taken downtown, but there is always good and bad, as mentioned before.
Same goes for the drug scene, if you go looking you will find, otherwise, you may never come across it. -
peterparra, so which city in UK are you comparing with which in Spain?
Not all cities in UK are the same and the media loves the sensational stuff.
I have visited cities in Spain and have been taken downtown, but there is always good and bad, as mentioned before.
Same goes for the drug scene, if you go looking you will find, otherwise, you may never come across it. -
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Crimes can happen in any Country and there is no Utopia.
The worrying thing is the authorities at all level do not care. You try and report a crime in UK. The police will ask. if there was a CCTV. If you say No they are not interested. Sherlock Holmes come back all is forgiven..
If you call the police for yobbish behaviour they will not turn up and if you are lucky they will ring in two hours to ask if the kids have gone. If you ask the police why they have not turned up they will tell you that they have to priortise incidences. A crime is a crime???????
A friend of mine was having his house broken in, he called the Police and told them. THe police said they are short of staff. Later the police called my friend and he said dont bother I have killed the intuder within minutes around around 20 police turm up with sirens blazing. (They were short of staff an hour ago ) The Police warned my friend was wasting Police time.
I am not blaming the police for the socities evil but if the Police who has the authority to deal dont care, how do you think citizens can deal with the issues who whilst defending them selves their, family forget there belongings are not backed up. Infact in most part of London the Police stations are closed until around 16.00. Why should this be ?, crimes do not working hours !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
In Spain there is respect even when I visits friends my friends children have to call me Tio Shakeel,. they get up greet me have a ploite conversation in their broken english and leave.
A few years ago I was in Spain with my Uncle who had visted Spain for the first time. During this period I took the opportunity of having some work done. My Uncle noticed that the workers who came, were clean, polite, asked your permission to enter the flat, did not smoke in the flat. Not a tatoo/earring in sight. My uncle asked why we cant builders in Uk with the same manners. As this was my uncles first visit to Spain I could no go into the various facets of Spanish life.
I am slightly off the subject, the current UK problems and its situation is in my and other forums users posting.
Until the politicians dont deal with the real issues without fear losing votes and milking the system, nothing will change.
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Crimes can happen in any Country and there is no Utopia.
The worrying thing is the authorities at all level do not care. You try and report a crime in UK. The police will ask. if there was a CCTV. If you say No they are not interested. Sherlock Holmes come back all is forgiven..
If you call the police for yobbish behaviour they will not turn up and if you are lucky they will ring in two hours to ask if the kids have gone. If you ask the police why they have not turned up they will tell you that they have to priortise incidences. A crime is a crime???????
A friend of mine was having his house broken in, he called the Police and told them. THe police said they are short of staff. Later the police called my friend and he said dont bother I have killed the intuder within minutes around around 20 police turm up with sirens blazing. (They were short of staff an hour ago ) The Police warned my friend was wasting Police time.
I am not blaming the police for the socities evil but if the Police who has the authority to deal dont care, how do you think citizens can deal with the issues who whilst defending them selves their, family forget there belongings are not backed up. Infact in most part of London the Police stations are closed until around 16.00. Why should this be ?, crimes do not working hours !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
In Spain there is respect even when I visits friends my friends children have to call me Tio Shakeel,. they get up greet me have a ploite conversation in their broken english and leave.
A few years ago I was in Spain with my Uncle who had visted Spain for the first time. During this period I took the opportunity of having some work done. My Uncle noticed that the workers who came, were clean, polite, asked your permission to enter the flat, did not smoke in the flat. Not a tatoo/earring in sight. My uncle asked why we cant builders in Uk with the same manners. As this was my uncles first visit to Spain I could no go into the various facets of Spanish life.
I am slightly off the subject, the current UK problems and its situation is in my and other forums users posting.
Until the politicians dont deal with the real issues without fear losing votes and milking the system, nothing will change.
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Inez,
In Hull, the local MP is John Presscot also the ex no 2 after Tony Blair. Populary know as two jabs, after he punched a fuel protestor. ( Still living is properties provided by the Tax payer and would not leave )No, action/charges were brought against him. What an example to set. Its a pitty the protestor did not bring a private prosecutuion for comman assualt a criminal offense.
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Inez,
In Hull, the local MP is John Presscot also the ex no 2 after Tony Blair. Populary know as two jabs, after he punched a fuel protestor. ( Still living is properties provided by the Tax payer and would not leave )No, action/charges were brought against him. What an example to set. Its a pitty the protestor did not bring a private prosecutuion for comman assualt a criminal offense.
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@jiminspain wrote:
We have on numerous occasions considered a return to the UK but with a twelve year old son ourselves incidents like this do make us think that if not for our sake then our sons his future is better and safer in Spain.
Please this is a genuine question, with sincere motives, not an agent trying to discredit the Uk and play up Spain.
Jim
Long post, and unedited, I don’t have the time but the subject interests me and I think I can add to the discussion
Last year I returned to England after 5 years and to Manchester after 20 years. I returned to live in Moss Side which if the press were to have their way would be renamed Notorious Moss Side.
There are gun gangs in Moss Side, these gangs are dangerous but they are mainly a danger to each other. I know innocent people have been shot but it is very rare. My cousin lives near where the gangs operate, he has lived there all his life, and although he is as concerned as everyone else by their behaviour he speaks of it as it affects him as might someone complaining about kids playing football in the street. I have walked through the heart of Moss Side late at night when a number of youths have been hanging outside a cafe and I didn’t even merit a second glance, never mind a bullet. That doesn’t mean I am comfortable with gun crime or organised gangs. I think there should be something done but to stop these kids brutalising themselves as much as anything.
My street is a nice street. In my street the kids play football and recently one kid kicked a ball which knocked over a small bush in a plant pot in next door’s front yard. Next I saw was said child being frog marched by his father to the house next door and he was made to replant the bush and apologise. These kids are nice and polite and sometimes a bit naughty, but never rude.
Then there are the rude kids of about 12 to 16, they don’t carry knives or guns but they are a nuisance. They hang around the library and cause so much trouble that the library now has to employ bouncers because the librarians can’t handle them. My mate has a son who is 16, he’s a nice lad but he can’t go to the library because he knows he will get in a fight and the gang will win.
Then there are the police. My mate’s son gets stopped by them all the time. I think these are community support officers and they have targets to reach, a certain number of kids to stop. I think it is easier for them to stop the polite kids than it is to stop the cheeky kids who know their rights so they stop my mates’s son and even joke with him about the regularity of it.
I don’t know about the parents, I am not a parent myself. I have had a rude kid try to hit me as I ride my bike, his parents shouted at him to behave and they seemed outraged enough that their child should try to attack a middle aged man. So why did he do it? The polite kids would never dream of such a thing, neither would the gang members. I don’t understand.
Anyway, that’s the worse area of Manchester and even there it is not all doom and gloom. I reckon that someone who has raised a decent kid would still have a decent kid wherever they took him or her. I’m sure those kids would know where to avoid and would do so even if it shouldn’t be like that. having said that I am not suggesting that you become my neighbour as you have to have grown up here to know that some of the nutters are absolutely harmless.
Oh, and when discussing violence in Britain most Spanish would dismiss the subject and assure me that it was just as bad there but the worst that happened to me in Spain was a cheeky lad telling me he doesn’t like the English.
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@jiminspain wrote:
We have on numerous occasions considered a return to the UK but with a twelve year old son ourselves incidents like this do make us think that if not for our sake then our sons his future is better and safer in Spain.
Please this is a genuine question, with sincere motives, not an agent trying to discredit the Uk and play up Spain.
Jim
Long post, and unedited, I don’t have the time but the subject interests me and I think I can add to the discussion
Last year I returned to England after 5 years and to Manchester after 20 years. I returned to live in Moss Side which if the press were to have their way would be renamed Notorious Moss Side.
There are gun gangs in Moss Side, these gangs are dangerous but they are mainly a danger to each other. I know innocent people have been shot but it is very rare. My cousin lives near where the gangs operate, he has lived there all his life, and although he is as concerned as everyone else by their behaviour he speaks of it as it affects him as might someone complaining about kids playing football in the street. I have walked through the heart of Moss Side late at night when a number of youths have been hanging outside a cafe and I didn’t even merit a second glance, never mind a bullet. That doesn’t mean I am comfortable with gun crime or organised gangs. I think there should be something done but to stop these kids brutalising themselves as much as anything.
My street is a nice street. In my street the kids play football and recently one kid kicked a ball which knocked over a small bush in a plant pot in next door’s front yard. Next I saw was said child being frog marched by his father to the house next door and he was made to replant the bush and apologise. These kids are nice and polite and sometimes a bit naughty, but never rude.
Then there are the rude kids of about 12 to 16, they don’t carry knives or guns but they are a nuisance. They hang around the library and cause so much trouble that the library now has to employ bouncers because the librarians can’t handle them. My mate has a son who is 16, he’s a nice lad but he can’t go to the library because he knows he will get in a fight and the gang will win.
Then there are the police. My mate’s son gets stopped by them all the time. I think these are community support officers and they have targets to reach, a certain number of kids to stop. I think it is easier for them to stop the polite kids than it is to stop the cheeky kids who know their rights so they stop my mates’s son and even joke with him about the regularity of it.
I don’t know about the parents, I am not a parent myself. I have had a rude kid try to hit me as I ride my bike, his parents shouted at him to behave and they seemed outraged enough that their child should try to attack a middle aged man. So why did he do it? The polite kids would never dream of such a thing, neither would the gang members. I don’t understand.
Anyway, that’s the worse area of Manchester and even there it is not all doom and gloom. I reckon that someone who has raised a decent kid would still have a decent kid wherever they took him or her. I’m sure those kids would know where to avoid and would do so even if it shouldn’t be like that. having said that I am not suggesting that you become my neighbour as you have to have grown up here to know that some of the nutters are absolutely harmless.
Oh, and when discussing violence in Britain most Spanish would dismiss the subject and assure me that it was just as bad there but the worst that happened to me in Spain was a cheeky lad telling me he doesn’t like the English.
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Mike said
“it was just as bad there but the worst that happened to me in Spain was a cheeky lad telling me he doesn’t like the English.”
I read your posting and you came accross a balance kind of a person. But your last paragraph baffeled me.
The reasons are:
1) No body has to like each other for what ever reason they may have.
2) All races, nationality have their general dislikes. The Welsh dont like the English and English dont like the French. I dont like the mother in law even though that I dont have one etc, etc.
3) The media and politicians of today. The custodians of relegions have used the situation through out the history of the world and has embeded hate and likes and dislikes. But in the case of todays Spain. I can understand where the Spaniards are coming from. I have spoken to them openly the issues some of them are.
1) Take over of their towns in so far as their way of life, fish & chips, Karoke bar, loutish/aggresive behaviour, walking bare chest with their union jack shorts. throwing up in the streets.
2) Expect/Demand that they speak English.
3) Arrogant behaviour with tradesman e.g plumber,electricians etc. I have been told by them that they visit the English customers last, for reason at the begining of (3).
4) Yes, than of course Gibralter.
You may recall that recently the British consulate in Majora or Ibiza, commented that he was ashamed with him compatriats behaviour.
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Mike said
“it was just as bad there but the worst that happened to me in Spain was a cheeky lad telling me he doesn’t like the English.”
I read your posting and you came accross a balance kind of a person. But your last paragraph baffeled me.
The reasons are:
1) No body has to like each other for what ever reason they may have.
2) All races, nationality have their general dislikes. The Welsh dont like the English and English dont like the French. I dont like the mother in law even though that I dont have one etc, etc.
3) The media and politicians of today. The custodians of relegions have used the situation through out the history of the world and has embeded hate and likes and dislikes. But in the case of todays Spain. I can understand where the Spaniards are coming from. I have spoken to them openly the issues some of them are.
1) Take over of their towns in so far as their way of life, fish & chips, Karoke bar, loutish/aggresive behaviour, walking bare chest with their union jack shorts. throwing up in the streets.
2) Expect/Demand that they speak English.
3) Arrogant behaviour with tradesman e.g plumber,electricians etc. I have been told by them that they visit the English customers last, for reason at the begining of (3).
4) Yes, than of course Gibralter.
You may recall that recently the British consulate in Majora or Ibiza, commented that he was ashamed with him compatriats behaviour.
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Unfortunately here in Middleton, Leeds, the parents are as bad as the kids!! If you talk to the kids about kicking the ball against your car you get grief. If you see their parents they don’t give a monkeys. We had a dispersal order in our area for 3 months and the peace was amazing.
I don’t have a problem with the kids playing football, there is a field on our small estate specifically for that, but they play on the road. They are encouraged to play on the road by their parents and the whole attitude is “they are only kids!!!”
It is a lose lose situation as far as I can see.
Mark
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Unfortunately here in Middleton, Leeds, the parents are as bad as the kids!! If you talk to the kids about kicking the ball against your car you get grief. If you see their parents they don’t give a monkeys. We had a dispersal order in our area for 3 months and the peace was amazing.
I don’t have a problem with the kids playing football, there is a field on our small estate specifically for that, but they play on the road. They are encouraged to play on the road by their parents and the whole attitude is “they are only kids!!!”
It is a lose lose situation as far as I can see.
Mark
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@shakeel wrote:
Mike said
“it was just as bad there but the worst that happened to me in Spain was a cheeky lad telling me he doesn’t like the English.”
I read your posting and you came accross a balance kind of a person. But your last paragraph baffeled me.
I wasn’t suggesting that a kid saying he doesn’t like the English was a terrible experience for me, Shakeel, I was actually dismissing the incident as very minor but maybe that doesn’t translate. However, the comment was made.
@shakeel wrote:
The reasons are:
1) No body has to like each other for what ever reason they may have.
No they don’t. Simple respect will do.
@shakeel wrote:
2) All races, nationality have their general dislikes. The Welsh dont like the English and English dont like the French. I dont like the mother in law even though that I dont have one etc, etc.
How terribly grown up. Because everyone else dislikes people because of their nationality it’s normal and to be encouraged. Perhaps you think it is a good thing that we encourage children to dislike early in life so that they can get the first dig in?
@shakeel wrote:
3) The media and politicians of today. The custodians of relegions have used the situation through out the history of the world and has embeded hate and likes and dislikes. But in the case of todays Spain. I can understand where the Spaniards are coming from. I have spoken to them openly the issues some of them are.
1) Take over of their towns in so far as their way of life, fish & chips, Karoke bar, loutish/aggresive behaviour, walking bare chest with their union jack shorts. throwing up in the streets.
Which towns? Those on the coast which the Spanish promote as tourist destinations and to which they encourage more and more British to visit? Or is this also true of the inland towns? Could you tell me which inland towns please.
@shakeel wrote:
2) Expect/Demand that they speak English.
Is this in tourist resorts? I should imagine that you would have to speak the language or languages of your foreign tourists or they will stop visiting.
If inland where tourists are few then I agree that any British living there and not speaking the language are letting themselves down and giving the British a bad reputation
@shakeel wrote:
3) Arrogant behaviour with tradesman e.g plumber,electricians etc. I have been told by them that they visit the English customers last, for reason at the begining of (3).
I did meet many arrogant British when I was in Spain, I must admit. However, I met quite a few Spanish who seemed to be of the opinion that all British are arrogant and any action or statement seemed to disappoint these Spanish people.
For example, in my poor Spanish at the time, I asked a man in a shop in which I was buying some large items whether I could start bringing some of the supplies to my car. This Spanish man got very upset, picked up the large item and in a huff asked me which car. He had misunderstood me and he thought I had asked him to carry the stuff for me. I have witnessed such misunderstandings on a couple of ocassions.
Now, you might say that I should have been proficient in the language at that time but we all have different learning styles. My learning style is to go out and do it and that can lead to misunderstandings.
What compounds this misunderstanding is many of those English who do speak the language well, feeling all smug and superior and thinking that it’s a sad example of a fellow Brit not making an effort. Our arrogance doesn’t evaporate when we have learnt a foreign language! 😆
@shakeel wrote:
4) Yes, than of course Gibralter.
Get over it!!! It was 200 years ago that we drove the French out and in return you gave us Gibraltar. It has hurt you so badly that 50 years ago you gave the Americans their base at Rota forever. In addition all a Brit has to do is wave money at a Spaniard and he will sell his property. It seems that you do not value your land very highly, but you make a lot of noise about it.
@shakeel wrote:
You may recall that recently the British consulate in Majora or Ibiza, commented that he was ashamed with him compatriats behaviour.
Do you have a link? I’d like to see what he actually said and of whom he said it. If he was talking of louts that get drunk and cause trouble then maybe he is one of those Brits who have never seen drunken Spanish people. I assure you that I have seen many drunken Spanish, in fact I was drinking with them at the time.
Quite honestly, if all this bitterness is about the comment I made about a young boy saying to me that he doesn’t like the English and a significant number of Spanish agree with you then I would urge you to leave the European Union. You are too sensitive and insular to belong in an economic union that involves the free movement of labour.
-
@shakeel wrote:
Mike said
“it was just as bad there but the worst that happened to me in Spain was a cheeky lad telling me he doesn’t like the English.”
I read your posting and you came accross a balance kind of a person. But your last paragraph baffeled me.
I wasn’t suggesting that a kid saying he doesn’t like the English was a terrible experience for me, Shakeel, I was actually dismissing the incident as very minor but maybe that doesn’t translate. However, the comment was made.
@shakeel wrote:
The reasons are:
1) No body has to like each other for what ever reason they may have.
No they don’t. Simple respect will do.
@shakeel wrote:
2) All races, nationality have their general dislikes. The Welsh dont like the English and English dont like the French. I dont like the mother in law even though that I dont have one etc, etc.
How terribly grown up. Because everyone else dislikes people because of their nationality it’s normal and to be encouraged. Perhaps you think it is a good thing that we encourage children to dislike early in life so that they can get the first dig in?
@shakeel wrote:
3) The media and politicians of today. The custodians of relegions have used the situation through out the history of the world and has embeded hate and likes and dislikes. But in the case of todays Spain. I can understand where the Spaniards are coming from. I have spoken to them openly the issues some of them are.
1) Take over of their towns in so far as their way of life, fish & chips, Karoke bar, loutish/aggresive behaviour, walking bare chest with their union jack shorts. throwing up in the streets.
Which towns? Those on the coast which the Spanish promote as tourist destinations and to which they encourage more and more British to visit? Or is this also true of the inland towns? Could you tell me which inland towns please.
@shakeel wrote:
2) Expect/Demand that they speak English.
Is this in tourist resorts? I should imagine that you would have to speak the language or languages of your foreign tourists or they will stop visiting.
If inland where tourists are few then I agree that any British living there and not speaking the language are letting themselves down and giving the British a bad reputation
@shakeel wrote:
3) Arrogant behaviour with tradesman e.g plumber,electricians etc. I have been told by them that they visit the English customers last, for reason at the begining of (3).
I did meet many arrogant British when I was in Spain, I must admit. However, I met quite a few Spanish who seemed to be of the opinion that all British are arrogant and any action or statement seemed to disappoint these Spanish people.
For example, in my poor Spanish at the time, I asked a man in a shop in which I was buying some large items whether I could start bringing some of the supplies to my car. This Spanish man got very upset, picked up the large item and in a huff asked me which car. He had misunderstood me and he thought I had asked him to carry the stuff for me. I have witnessed such misunderstandings on a couple of ocassions.
Now, you might say that I should have been proficient in the language at that time but we all have different learning styles. My learning style is to go out and do it and that can lead to misunderstandings.
What compounds this misunderstanding is many of those English who do speak the language well, feeling all smug and superior and thinking that it’s a sad example of a fellow Brit not making an effort. Our arrogance doesn’t evaporate when we have learnt a foreign language! 😆
@shakeel wrote:
4) Yes, than of course Gibralter.
Get over it!!! It was 200 years ago that we drove the French out and in return you gave us Gibraltar. It has hurt you so badly that 50 years ago you gave the Americans their base at Rota forever. In addition all a Brit has to do is wave money at a Spaniard and he will sell his property. It seems that you do not value your land very highly, but you make a lot of noise about it.
@shakeel wrote:
You may recall that recently the British consulate in Majora or Ibiza, commented that he was ashamed with him compatriats behaviour.
Do you have a link? I’d like to see what he actually said and of whom he said it. If he was talking of louts that get drunk and cause trouble then maybe he is one of those Brits who have never seen drunken Spanish people. I assure you that I have seen many drunken Spanish, in fact I was drinking with them at the time.
Quite honestly, if all this bitterness is about the comment I made about a young boy saying to me that he doesn’t like the English and a significant number of Spanish agree with you then I would urge you to leave the European Union. You are too sensitive and insular to belong in an economic union that involves the free movement of labour.
-
Hi Mike,
My comments were based from my observation and discussions with Spaniards from different walks of life.The kid not liking English:
I accept what you say but it came accross that you felt that was a basis of some deep rooted social problem in the Spanish society.Nobody has to like:
I agree respect, tolerance and open minded will do. Again the way your posting has come accross that the English have to be liked.“How terribly grown up. Because everyone else dislikes people because of their nationality it’s normal and to be encouraged”
Disliking/liking people is a personal choice and as you say normal. I personally would not encourage dislikng. As I beleive that we all have positive/negaitive as part of our character and I look for the positive in a pesrson.
“Which Towns ” Yes, I am talking about the coast, the impression positive/negative about a nationaity will not be spread to the general masses from a small mountain village in Asturias ?
“Is this in tourist resorts? I should imagine that you would have to speak the language or languages of your foreign tourists or they will stop visiting”.
Speaking and demanding are two different things. A few words and a general non aggresive body language is what is required. Tourism is worldwide. Its for the tourist to realise that when he/she travels they are by default an Ambassador to their Country. The Spaniards tolerate the behavior as much as the English does of the Amricans, when they are in the holets, museams or other touristic spots in UK.
You will notice that I am not bringing Germans into this as they just use the M2 of the beach space.
“For example, in my poor Spanish at the time”.
It can happen and its all part of learning a new language. I have my own howlers that I can write a book about.
” Get over it!!! “
What is 200 years got to do with it ? An historical fact remains. Passage of time without sincere and honest action does not erode the historical fact. The Rota base had a global political dimension deeply rooted in the Cold war and Francos insecurities.“In addition all a Brit has to do is wave money at a Spaniard and he will sell his property.”
A property is a trading commodity. In Spain, Spaniards are the biggest buyers not the English. After all 50 million or so Spaniard dont live under open sky. Let me remind you that in Uk in the 30 years or so. The Iranians, Nigerians, Arabs, Indian and now the Russians have waved their money. The Chelsea Barricks in London has recently been been sold to the Qatari investment Compony. Yes, waving money to the English. Atleast the Spaniards are not selling the Heritage like Country/listed houses. like the English has been doing. This has been encouraged by the UK fiscal system as the non residents do not pay capital gains tax. Unlike in Spain and other EU Countries. Besides the British Airports, EnergyCompany, Bank etc has been sold to the Spaniard waving money at the English.
“Do you have a link?”
I am afraid I cant recall it. It was covered in the UK media and on this forum.
“Quite honestly, if all this bitterness is about the comment “.
There is no bitterness. I only stated the reasons for which the Spaniard or others may not like English for some of the instances stated earlier. You can take it as you like.
I am not Spanish and look’s at things in from both perspectives. Not from the English perspective only.
-
Hi Mike,
My comments were based from my observation and discussions with Spaniards from different walks of life.The kid not liking English:
I accept what you say but it came accross that you felt that was a basis of some deep rooted social problem in the Spanish society.Nobody has to like:
I agree respect, tolerance and open minded will do. Again the way your posting has come accross that the English have to be liked.“How terribly grown up. Because everyone else dislikes people because of their nationality it’s normal and to be encouraged”
Disliking/liking people is a personal choice and as you say normal. I personally would not encourage dislikng. As I beleive that we all have positive/negaitive as part of our character and I look for the positive in a pesrson.
“Which Towns ” Yes, I am talking about the coast, the impression positive/negative about a nationaity will not be spread to the general masses from a small mountain village in Asturias ?
“Is this in tourist resorts? I should imagine that you would have to speak the language or languages of your foreign tourists or they will stop visiting”.
Speaking and demanding are two different things. A few words and a general non aggresive body language is what is required. Tourism is worldwide. Its for the tourist to realise that when he/she travels they are by default an Ambassador to their Country. The Spaniards tolerate the behavior as much as the English does of the Amricans, when they are in the holets, museams or other touristic spots in UK.
You will notice that I am not bringing Germans into this as they just use the M2 of the beach space.
“For example, in my poor Spanish at the time”.
It can happen and its all part of learning a new language. I have my own howlers that I can write a book about.
” Get over it!!! “
What is 200 years got to do with it ? An historical fact remains. Passage of time without sincere and honest action does not erode the historical fact. The Rota base had a global political dimension deeply rooted in the Cold war and Francos insecurities.“In addition all a Brit has to do is wave money at a Spaniard and he will sell his property.”
A property is a trading commodity. In Spain, Spaniards are the biggest buyers not the English. After all 50 million or so Spaniard dont live under open sky. Let me remind you that in Uk in the 30 years or so. The Iranians, Nigerians, Arabs, Indian and now the Russians have waved their money. The Chelsea Barricks in London has recently been been sold to the Qatari investment Compony. Yes, waving money to the English. Atleast the Spaniards are not selling the Heritage like Country/listed houses. like the English has been doing. This has been encouraged by the UK fiscal system as the non residents do not pay capital gains tax. Unlike in Spain and other EU Countries. Besides the British Airports, EnergyCompany, Bank etc has been sold to the Spaniard waving money at the English.
“Do you have a link?”
I am afraid I cant recall it. It was covered in the UK media and on this forum.
“Quite honestly, if all this bitterness is about the comment “.
There is no bitterness. I only stated the reasons for which the Spaniard or others may not like English for some of the instances stated earlier. You can take it as you like.
I am not Spanish and look’s at things in from both perspectives. Not from the English perspective only.
-
@mike wrote:
@shakeel wrote:
….. Take over of their towns in so far as their way of life, fish & chips, Karoke bar, loutish/aggresive behaviour, walking bare chest with their union jack shorts. throwing up in the streets.
Which towns? Those on the coast which the Spanish promote as tourist destinations and to which they encourage more and more British to visit? Or is this also true of the inland towns?
Whatever towns the Spanish promote as tourist destinations, they promote as a SPANISH TOWN or SPANISH DESTINATION. A tourist with any brains does not visit Spain for fish & chips, Karoke bar, loutish/aggresive behaviour, walking bare chest with their union jack shorts. throwing up in the streets – as a British ex-pat I do not want those things either. Those type of tourists are not wanted by the Spanish or Ex-pat community – best they stay in the UK – at least Blackpool has got trams to keep them out of the cold!
@mike wrote:
@shakeel wrote:
2) Expect/Demand that they speak English.
Is this in tourist resorts? I should imagine that you would have to speak the language or languages of your foreign tourists or they will stop visiting.
Hang on, do those in London speak the language of the capital’s tourists? I struggle to find a Shop assistant, waiter, barman or London Underground Information clerk who speaks English – I bet none of them speak any other Euro language like Spanish, French or German!
@mike wrote:
I would urge you to leave the European Union. You are too sensitive and insular to belong in an economic union that involves the free movement of labour.
The UK are now in all ways full active members of the EU are they? The Pound is being replaced by the Euro? I think you will find it is the UK that are being insular and will not fully join an economic union where the currency of that union is the Euro! Mind you, the British farmers don’t mind accepting their subsidies in Euros though!!
@mike wrote:
If he was talking of louts that get drunk and cause trouble then maybe he is one of those Brits who have never seen drunken Spanish people. I assure you that I have seen many drunken Spanish, in fact I was drinking with them at the time.
Difference is that when Spanish People get drunk they do so and enjoy themselves. On the whole they do not become aggresive or act like louts as the unwanted Brits do.
-
@mike wrote:
@shakeel wrote:
….. Take over of their towns in so far as their way of life, fish & chips, Karoke bar, loutish/aggresive behaviour, walking bare chest with their union jack shorts. throwing up in the streets.
Which towns? Those on the coast which the Spanish promote as tourist destinations and to which they encourage more and more British to visit? Or is this also true of the inland towns?
Whatever towns the Spanish promote as tourist destinations, they promote as a SPANISH TOWN or SPANISH DESTINATION. A tourist with any brains does not visit Spain for fish & chips, Karoke bar, loutish/aggresive behaviour, walking bare chest with their union jack shorts. throwing up in the streets – as a British ex-pat I do not want those things either. Those type of tourists are not wanted by the Spanish or Ex-pat community – best they stay in the UK – at least Blackpool has got trams to keep them out of the cold!
@mike wrote:
@shakeel wrote:
2) Expect/Demand that they speak English.
Is this in tourist resorts? I should imagine that you would have to speak the language or languages of your foreign tourists or they will stop visiting.
Hang on, do those in London speak the language of the capital’s tourists? I struggle to find a Shop assistant, waiter, barman or London Underground Information clerk who speaks English – I bet none of them speak any other Euro language like Spanish, French or German!
@mike wrote:
I would urge you to leave the European Union. You are too sensitive and insular to belong in an economic union that involves the free movement of labour.
The UK are now in all ways full active members of the EU are they? The Pound is being replaced by the Euro? I think you will find it is the UK that are being insular and will not fully join an economic union where the currency of that union is the Euro! Mind you, the British farmers don’t mind accepting their subsidies in Euros though!!
@mike wrote:
If he was talking of louts that get drunk and cause trouble then maybe he is one of those Brits who have never seen drunken Spanish people. I assure you that I have seen many drunken Spanish, in fact I was drinking with them at the time.
Difference is that when Spanish People get drunk they do so and enjoy themselves. On the whole they do not become aggresive or act like louts as the unwanted Brits do.
-
@shakeel wrote:
The kid not liking English:
I accept what you say but it came accross that you felt that was a basis of some deep rooted social problem in the Spanish society.Not at all, I just encountered a cheeky kid. All societies have them and they also have arrogant and rude people but the majority of people in all societies are pretty cool, in my experience.
@shakeel wrote:
” Get over it!!! “
What is 200 years got to do with it ? An historical fact remains. Passage of time without sincere and honest action does not erode the historical fact. The Rota base had a global political dimension deeply rooted in the Cold war and Francos insecurities.And in 200 years time you will be complaining about the Americans having their base in Rota. Learn not to give land away because sooner or later you will learn to regret it. OIC!! You aren’t Spanish. Have a word with your Spanish mates, will you? Please.
For them to get Gibraltar back it would be best for them to be nice to the people living there. The UK would be happy to come to some arrangement but the Gibraltarians, the people born there, are suspicious of Spain for some reason. I would start there and when they have persuaded them that Gibraltar is actually Spanish then they won’t get much argument from the British government.
@shakeel wrote:
“In addition all a Brit has to do is wave money at a Spaniard and he will sell his property.”
A property is a trading commodity. In Spain, Spaniards are the biggest buyers not the English. After all 50 million or so Spaniard dont live under open sky. Let me remind you that in Uk in the 30 years or so. The Iranians, Nigerians, Arabs, Indian and now the Russians have waved their money. The Chelsea Barricks in London has recently been been sold to the Qatari investment Compony. Yes, waving money to the English. Atleast the Spaniards are not selling the Heritage like Country/listed houses. like the English has been doing. This has been encouraged by the UK fiscal system as the non residents do not pay capital gains tax. Unlike in Spain and other EU Countries. Besides the British Airports, EnergyCompany, Bank etc has been sold to the Spaniard waving money at the English.
We have always been a trading nation and we understand that once a deal is struck it’s no use complaining about it. The many nations who have bought in the UK know that they will get what they pay for and their ownership will be respected.
@shakeel wrote:
“Do you have a link?”
I am afraid I cant recall it. It was covered in the UK media and on this forum.
I’m sure you are correct and the consul did make those remarks. I just find it disappointing that someone in such a position should make such remarks about his fellow countrymen. It isn’t going to help overcome misunderstandings, is it?
@shakeel wrote:
“Quite honestly, if all this bitterness is about the comment “.
There is no bitterness. I only stated the reasons for which the Spaniard or others may not like English for some of the instances stated earlier. You can take it as you like.
I am not Spanish and look’s at things in from both perspectives. Not from the English perspective only.
You told me that I seemed well balanced in my post and you then took one remark I made about that young boy out of context and you ended up telling me that the British are arrogant and aggressive.
I’d say you have issues. But that’s OK, we can discuss them
-
@shakeel wrote:
The kid not liking English:
I accept what you say but it came accross that you felt that was a basis of some deep rooted social problem in the Spanish society.Not at all, I just encountered a cheeky kid. All societies have them and they also have arrogant and rude people but the majority of people in all societies are pretty cool, in my experience.
@shakeel wrote:
” Get over it!!! “
What is 200 years got to do with it ? An historical fact remains. Passage of time without sincere and honest action does not erode the historical fact. The Rota base had a global political dimension deeply rooted in the Cold war and Francos insecurities.And in 200 years time you will be complaining about the Americans having their base in Rota. Learn not to give land away because sooner or later you will learn to regret it. OIC!! You aren’t Spanish. Have a word with your Spanish mates, will you? Please.
For them to get Gibraltar back it would be best for them to be nice to the people living there. The UK would be happy to come to some arrangement but the Gibraltarians, the people born there, are suspicious of Spain for some reason. I would start there and when they have persuaded them that Gibraltar is actually Spanish then they won’t get much argument from the British government.
@shakeel wrote:
“In addition all a Brit has to do is wave money at a Spaniard and he will sell his property.”
A property is a trading commodity. In Spain, Spaniards are the biggest buyers not the English. After all 50 million or so Spaniard dont live under open sky. Let me remind you that in Uk in the 30 years or so. The Iranians, Nigerians, Arabs, Indian and now the Russians have waved their money. The Chelsea Barricks in London has recently been been sold to the Qatari investment Compony. Yes, waving money to the English. Atleast the Spaniards are not selling the Heritage like Country/listed houses. like the English has been doing. This has been encouraged by the UK fiscal system as the non residents do not pay capital gains tax. Unlike in Spain and other EU Countries. Besides the British Airports, EnergyCompany, Bank etc has been sold to the Spaniard waving money at the English.
We have always been a trading nation and we understand that once a deal is struck it’s no use complaining about it. The many nations who have bought in the UK know that they will get what they pay for and their ownership will be respected.
@shakeel wrote:
“Do you have a link?”
I am afraid I cant recall it. It was covered in the UK media and on this forum.
I’m sure you are correct and the consul did make those remarks. I just find it disappointing that someone in such a position should make such remarks about his fellow countrymen. It isn’t going to help overcome misunderstandings, is it?
@shakeel wrote:
“Quite honestly, if all this bitterness is about the comment “.
There is no bitterness. I only stated the reasons for which the Spaniard or others may not like English for some of the instances stated earlier. You can take it as you like.
I am not Spanish and look’s at things in from both perspectives. Not from the English perspective only.
You told me that I seemed well balanced in my post and you then took one remark I made about that young boy out of context and you ended up telling me that the British are arrogant and aggressive.
I’d say you have issues. But that’s OK, we can discuss them
-
@paulandlyn wrote:
@mike wrote:
@shakeel wrote:
….. Take over of their towns in so far as their way of life, fish & chips, Karoke bar, loutish/aggresive behaviour, walking bare chest with their union jack shorts. throwing up in the streets.
Which towns? Those on the coast which the Spanish promote as tourist destinations and to which they encourage more and more British to visit? Or is this also true of the inland towns?
Whatever towns the Spanish promote as tourist destinations, they promote as a SPANISH TOWN or SPANISH DESTINATION. A tourist with any brains does not visit Spain for fish & chips, Karoke bar, loutish/aggresive behaviour, walking bare chest with their union jack shorts. throwing up in the streets – as a British ex-pat I do not want those things either. Those type of tourists are not wanted by the Spanish or Ex-pat community – best they stay in the UK – at least Blackpool has got trams to keep them out of the cold!
Much as you and the other expats would wish it otherwise, the louts walking around bare chested with union jack shorts and throwing up due to drinking too much alcohol are on the costa del sol and probably only a short walk from that town house you are still trying to sell.
In fact, if the Spanish wanted to promote Spanish culture why on earth did they allow those tacky little British bars all around Benalmadena and Fuengirola? I’d say it was a town planning disaster almost equal to the half constructed apartments that litter the landscape.
@paulandlyn wrote:
@mike wrote:
@shakeel wrote:
2) Expect/Demand that they speak English.
Is this in tourist resorts? I should imagine that you would have to speak the language or languages of your foreign tourists or they will stop visiting.
Hang on, do those in London speak the language of the capital’s tourists? I struggle to find a Shop assistant, waiter, barman or London Underground Information clerk who speaks English – I bet none of them speak any other Euro language like Spanish, French or German!
We’ve already established the type of tourist that Spain attracts. London gets a more sophisticated tourist that will typically speak English and who will spend a lot more money.
I, in my 15 years living in London, never encountered any shop assistant, waiter, barman or London Underground Information clerk who did not speak English. Maybe you lived in a poor part of London in which there were a lot of recently arrived immigrants.
@paulandlyn wrote:
@mike wrote:
I would urge you to leave the European Union. You are too sensitive and insular to belong in an economic union that involves the free movement of labour.
The UK are now in all ways full active members of the EU are they? The Pound is being replaced by the Euro? I think you will find it is the UK that are being insular and will not fully join an economic union where the currency of that union is the Euro! Mind you, the British farmers don’t mind accepting their subsidies in Euros though!!
I think the decision that the UK made in not joining the euro will soon be seen as a good one.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/5893d526-f982-11db-9b6b-000b5df10621.html
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9939d268-51b8-11dc-8779-0000779fd2ac.html
At a time when the Spanish need to reduce interest rates in order to help those who have overstretched themselves to buy property, the ECB is likely to have to raise interest rates in order to quell inflation.
As for the British farmers, I don’t know any but I am sure that they accept their subsidies as eagerly as the Spanish farmers. Speaking of subsidies, aren’t the EU subsidies to Spain to end soon in favour of the new entrants to the union? That will be a double whammy to the economy.
@paulandlyn wrote:
@mike wrote:
If he was talking of louts that get drunk and cause trouble then maybe he is one of those Brits who have never seen drunken Spanish people. I assure you that I have seen many drunken Spanish, in fact I was drinking with them at the time.
Difference is that when Spanish People get drunk they do so and enjoy themselves. On the whole they do not become aggresive or act like louts as the unwanted Brits do.
Well, I have met loud and aggressive Spanish, in fact when I went to football my friends would always ensure that I didn’t mingle with the ultras. You have seen the ultras? They were the racists that shamed Spain when they played England by making monkey chants towards our black players.
If you watch Spanish television you will see many references to wife beating but I suppose if it happens indoors and doesn’t frighten the horses it is OK?
As for unwanted Brits! Well, unwanted by who? When the Spanish economy hits the skids these Brits will be encouraged to visit Spain with cheaper flights and cheaper hotel rooms. Soon, I would imagine it would be impossible to step outside the most well located town house on the costa del sol without stepping into a pool of vomit.
-
@paulandlyn wrote:
@mike wrote:
@shakeel wrote:
….. Take over of their towns in so far as their way of life, fish & chips, Karoke bar, loutish/aggresive behaviour, walking bare chest with their union jack shorts. throwing up in the streets.
Which towns? Those on the coast which the Spanish promote as tourist destinations and to which they encourage more and more British to visit? Or is this also true of the inland towns?
Whatever towns the Spanish promote as tourist destinations, they promote as a SPANISH TOWN or SPANISH DESTINATION. A tourist with any brains does not visit Spain for fish & chips, Karoke bar, loutish/aggresive behaviour, walking bare chest with their union jack shorts. throwing up in the streets – as a British ex-pat I do not want those things either. Those type of tourists are not wanted by the Spanish or Ex-pat community – best they stay in the UK – at least Blackpool has got trams to keep them out of the cold!
Much as you and the other expats would wish it otherwise, the louts walking around bare chested with union jack shorts and throwing up due to drinking too much alcohol are on the costa del sol and probably only a short walk from that town house you are still trying to sell.
In fact, if the Spanish wanted to promote Spanish culture why on earth did they allow those tacky little British bars all around Benalmadena and Fuengirola? I’d say it was a town planning disaster almost equal to the half constructed apartments that litter the landscape.
@paulandlyn wrote:
@mike wrote:
@shakeel wrote:
2) Expect/Demand that they speak English.
Is this in tourist resorts? I should imagine that you would have to speak the language or languages of your foreign tourists or they will stop visiting.
Hang on, do those in London speak the language of the capital’s tourists? I struggle to find a Shop assistant, waiter, barman or London Underground Information clerk who speaks English – I bet none of them speak any other Euro language like Spanish, French or German!
We’ve already established the type of tourist that Spain attracts. London gets a more sophisticated tourist that will typically speak English and who will spend a lot more money.
I, in my 15 years living in London, never encountered any shop assistant, waiter, barman or London Underground Information clerk who did not speak English. Maybe you lived in a poor part of London in which there were a lot of recently arrived immigrants.
@paulandlyn wrote:
@mike wrote:
I would urge you to leave the European Union. You are too sensitive and insular to belong in an economic union that involves the free movement of labour.
The UK are now in all ways full active members of the EU are they? The Pound is being replaced by the Euro? I think you will find it is the UK that are being insular and will not fully join an economic union where the currency of that union is the Euro! Mind you, the British farmers don’t mind accepting their subsidies in Euros though!!
I think the decision that the UK made in not joining the euro will soon be seen as a good one.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/5893d526-f982-11db-9b6b-000b5df10621.html
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9939d268-51b8-11dc-8779-0000779fd2ac.html
At a time when the Spanish need to reduce interest rates in order to help those who have overstretched themselves to buy property, the ECB is likely to have to raise interest rates in order to quell inflation.
As for the British farmers, I don’t know any but I am sure that they accept their subsidies as eagerly as the Spanish farmers. Speaking of subsidies, aren’t the EU subsidies to Spain to end soon in favour of the new entrants to the union? That will be a double whammy to the economy.
@paulandlyn wrote:
@mike wrote:
If he was talking of louts that get drunk and cause trouble then maybe he is one of those Brits who have never seen drunken Spanish people. I assure you that I have seen many drunken Spanish, in fact I was drinking with them at the time.
Difference is that when Spanish People get drunk they do so and enjoy themselves. On the whole they do not become aggresive or act like louts as the unwanted Brits do.
Well, I have met loud and aggressive Spanish, in fact when I went to football my friends would always ensure that I didn’t mingle with the ultras. You have seen the ultras? They were the racists that shamed Spain when they played England by making monkey chants towards our black players.
If you watch Spanish television you will see many references to wife beating but I suppose if it happens indoors and doesn’t frighten the horses it is OK?
As for unwanted Brits! Well, unwanted by who? When the Spanish economy hits the skids these Brits will be encouraged to visit Spain with cheaper flights and cheaper hotel rooms. Soon, I would imagine it would be impossible to step outside the most well located town house on the costa del sol without stepping into a pool of vomit.
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Hi Mike:
I have spoken to my Spanish friends and you may not have heard Spaniards saying “Gibralter siempre Espanol”On the subject of the Brits caring about the rights of Gibralterians. In the recent history the Gibralterians had a higher standard of living, this gap is now closing. As they say ( Its the economy stupid).The Brits in the near future will than not have the excuse of the wishes of the people when this evens out and as Britian now has little or no stretegic use of the straights of Gibralter apart from allowing mark Thachter to live there.
The dislike of the Spanish by the Gibraltrians stems from Francos actions forced upon by the British policies. I have worked in Gibralter for nearly two months and found them to be as Andaluz as their neighbours in La Linea. In fact many live in La Linea as they could not afford to live/or buy in Gibraltar.
Besides, when have Brits cared for the locals. They have always dumped the colonies and have left deep rooted economic/social/politocal problems so that they can never prosper. Its part of Imperialsm and I dont have a problem with it. I undesrtand the situation at Diplomatic/political level and further also understand that might is right wether it is Military or economical might. The thing that concern me is that a Brit feel very smug about things and is blinkered with the views of others and what it government does around the world.
You may not be aware that The Brit have sold an whole Island in the Atlantic to the Americans and without compensation etc. The island population is at par with Gibralter. The Islanders have been fighting for their Island, they have been ignored by the Brits, even though the Islanders have won their case at all levels in the UK Courts.
The Consulate. I dont see why you should be disappointed about it. I have respect for him that he has broken the protocal (gagging in other words) to speak the truth.
In the recent history the Spaniards,Portuguese, Dutch, French had all been trading nations at some/all stage of their existence. So this is a common denominator and your statement of English waving money at Spaniard for his property is not unusual, The Germans, Irish, Scandanavians do as much.
On the point of corruption. It may surprise you that this is common everywhere in the world, some people do it openly others through off shore companies or calls it loans and use proxies for it and later given them a knighthood.
There is an developer in UK, who had over built 60 extra flats than pemitted by the planning permission. The same developer had used a marketing company to influence peddle on behalf of the developers. The marketing company had forged signature of people who objected to the propsed development to show to the Council that there was a favourable backing to the propsed development.
As, you may have noticed that we have gone completely off the subject. I would just like you know that if you wish to see reality you must look at things a bit deeper and not only read history written by the victors and what media or politicians spins for you and me.
-
Hi Mike:
I have spoken to my Spanish friends and you may not have heard Spaniards saying “Gibralter siempre Espanol”On the subject of the Brits caring about the rights of Gibralterians. In the recent history the Gibralterians had a higher standard of living, this gap is now closing. As they say ( Its the economy stupid).The Brits in the near future will than not have the excuse of the wishes of the people when this evens out and as Britian now has little or no stretegic use of the straights of Gibralter apart from allowing mark Thachter to live there.
The dislike of the Spanish by the Gibraltrians stems from Francos actions forced upon by the British policies. I have worked in Gibralter for nearly two months and found them to be as Andaluz as their neighbours in La Linea. In fact many live in La Linea as they could not afford to live/or buy in Gibraltar.
Besides, when have Brits cared for the locals. They have always dumped the colonies and have left deep rooted economic/social/politocal problems so that they can never prosper. Its part of Imperialsm and I dont have a problem with it. I undesrtand the situation at Diplomatic/political level and further also understand that might is right wether it is Military or economical might. The thing that concern me is that a Brit feel very smug about things and is blinkered with the views of others and what it government does around the world.
You may not be aware that The Brit have sold an whole Island in the Atlantic to the Americans and without compensation etc. The island population is at par with Gibralter. The Islanders have been fighting for their Island, they have been ignored by the Brits, even though the Islanders have won their case at all levels in the UK Courts.
The Consulate. I dont see why you should be disappointed about it. I have respect for him that he has broken the protocal (gagging in other words) to speak the truth.
In the recent history the Spaniards,Portuguese, Dutch, French had all been trading nations at some/all stage of their existence. So this is a common denominator and your statement of English waving money at Spaniard for his property is not unusual, The Germans, Irish, Scandanavians do as much.
On the point of corruption. It may surprise you that this is common everywhere in the world, some people do it openly others through off shore companies or calls it loans and use proxies for it and later given them a knighthood.
There is an developer in UK, who had over built 60 extra flats than pemitted by the planning permission. The same developer had used a marketing company to influence peddle on behalf of the developers. The marketing company had forged signature of people who objected to the propsed development to show to the Council that there was a favourable backing to the propsed development.
As, you may have noticed that we have gone completely off the subject. I would just like you know that if you wish to see reality you must look at things a bit deeper and not only read history written by the victors and what media or politicians spins for you and me.
-
Mike and Shakeel
Think we are seeing a simple comment taking right out of context and is often the danger of email communications.
I am sure that Mike’s mentioning a young lads comments were rather a simple fact that he was just trying to draw comparisons to murders, rapes gun crimes, stabbings and to this countries fast declining moral standards.
I am English and at times I am ashamed to say so when some wish to take this I am British and can do what I want attitude in other people’s countries and I would probably have agreed with the infant..
This surely is something that you do not need argue about, the fact is that this country is loosing the very people it needs to keep as just perhaps they can accept someone kid saying that they don’t like the English rather than have their child shot as is evident in the recent news.
Agree to disagree guys as there are no winners or losers hereFrank
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Mike and Shakeel
Think we are seeing a simple comment taking right out of context and is often the danger of email communications.
I am sure that Mike’s mentioning a young lads comments were rather a simple fact that he was just trying to draw comparisons to murders, rapes gun crimes, stabbings and to this countries fast declining moral standards.
I am English and at times I am ashamed to say so when some wish to take this I am British and can do what I want attitude in other people’s countries and I would probably have agreed with the infant..
This surely is something that you do not need argue about, the fact is that this country is loosing the very people it needs to keep as just perhaps they can accept someone kid saying that they don’t like the English rather than have their child shot as is evident in the recent news.
Agree to disagree guys as there are no winners or losers hereFrank
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-
-
-
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Hi Frank
“Think we are seeing a simple comment taking right out of context and is often the danger of email communications”I totally agree with you. This not mine or Mikes show as katy, advises you. We had discussed a wide array of subject matters which all started with not liking the Brits/English. I had only set out some very basic reasons in this instance the Spaniard not liking the Brits/English.
Mike had taken a well established line the Brits/English take when the opposite to their thoughts/teaching and beleif is stated to them.
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Hi Frank
“Think we are seeing a simple comment taking right out of context and is often the danger of email communications”I totally agree with you. This not mine or Mikes show as katy, advises you. We had discussed a wide array of subject matters which all started with not liking the Brits/English. I had only set out some very basic reasons in this instance the Spaniard not liking the Brits/English.
Mike had taken a well established line the Brits/English take when the opposite to their thoughts/teaching and beleif is stated to them.
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Hi Shakeel
Just observed what appeared to be two O.K.guys misunderstanding each other.Sorry if I spoilt the party.
Both pretty good at the history though and its clear that you are both right depending on which angle you are coming from.
Carry on if you want guys as its interesting and at times good see variuos points of view as long as you are able to accept other peopl opinions,while not having to always agree with them.Frank
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Hi Shakeel
Just observed what appeared to be two O.K.guys misunderstanding each other.Sorry if I spoilt the party.
Both pretty good at the history though and its clear that you are both right depending on which angle you are coming from.
Carry on if you want guys as its interesting and at times good see variuos points of view as long as you are able to accept other peopl opinions,while not having to always agree with them.Frank
-
High bank charges here they can afford to pay for staff who speak English! If you look at the jobs advertised in the CDS press they nearly all say it is necessary to speak English.
I was once at a golf dinner and a member of the junta de Andalucía was present. He and some more Spanish were sitting at the next table. They got into a discussion and a local Spaniard was complaining to the junta rep. about the English peoples lack of Spanish. They were quite critical until finally I had to but in, seeing as all the people at that table earn their living exculsively from tourism, the majority English speaking!
-
High bank charges here they can afford to pay for staff who speak English! If you look at the jobs advertised in the CDS press they nearly all say it is necessary to speak English.
I was once at a golf dinner and a member of the junta de Andalucía was present. He and some more Spanish were sitting at the next table. They got into a discussion and a local Spaniard was complaining to the junta rep. about the English peoples lack of Spanish. They were quite critical until finally I had to but in, seeing as all the people at that table earn their living exculsively from tourism, the majority English speaking!
-
@shakeel wrote:
Hi Mike:
I have spoken to my Spanish friends and you may not have heard Spaniards saying “Gibralter siempre Espanol”I have heard similar remarks on numerous occasions
@shakeel wrote:
On the subject of the Brits caring about the rights of Gibralterians. In the recent history the Gibralterians had a higher standard of living, this gap is now closing. As they say ( Its the economy stupid).The Brits in the near future will than not have the excuse of the wishes of the people when this evens out and as Britian now has little or no stretegic use of the straights of Gibralter apart from allowing mark Thachter to live there.
It’s no excuse. If you travel to Gibraltar and meet a Gibraltarian, born and bred there, they will tell you that they are British rather than Spanish. You do not have to raise the subject, they will raise it first.
@shakeel wrote:
The dislike of the Spanish by the Gibraltrians stems from Francos actions forced upon by the British policies.
We do have a history of giving fascists a bloody nose, I’m rather pleased that we did the same to the Franco regime.
@shakeel wrote:
I have worked in Gibralter for nearly two months and found them to be as Andaluz as their neighbours in La Linea. In fact many live in La Linea as they could not afford to live/or buy in Gibraltar.
I hope you didn’t tell Gibraltarians that they were as Andalucian as those in La Linea, it would have been so rude. If some of them choose to live in La Linea then good, I would like to see a resolution to this problem.
@shakeel wrote:
Besides, when have Brits cared for the locals. They have always dumped the colonies and have left deep rooted economic/social/politocal problems so that they can never prosper. Its part of Imperialsm and I dont have a problem with it. I undesrtand the situation at Diplomatic/political level and further also understand that might is right wether it is Military or economical might. The thing that concern me is that a Brit feel very smug about things and is blinkered with the views of others and what it government does around the world.
We’re very well received in the US and in India and I know for a fact that many Irish families have integrated very well into English society.
@shakeel wrote:
You may not be aware that The Brit have sold an whole Island in the Atlantic to the Americans and without compensation etc. The island population is at par with Gibralter. The Islanders have been fighting for their Island, they have been ignored by the Brits, even though the Islanders have won their case at all levels in the UK Courts.
I think you may be referring to Diego Garcia in the Indian ocean. John Pilger refers to it in his 1998 book “Hidden Agendas” and he compares the indigenous people, the Ilois, to the Australian Aborigines rather than the Gibraltarians as they have been refused recognition. The Gibraltarians are recognised and consulted on any changes to the constitution.
@shakeel wrote:
The Consulate. I dont see why you should be disappointed about it. I have respect for him that he has broken the protocal (gagging in other words) to speak the truth.
But we’ll never know until you can provide a link. Then I can dissect what he has said and tell you whether I consider it accurate. As it stands it’s just your interpretation and I think we have already established that you are capable of making a mountain out of a molehill.
@shakeel wrote:
In the recent history the Spaniards,Portuguese, Dutch, French had all been trading nations at some/all stage of their existence. So this is a common denominator and your statement of English waving money at Spaniard for his property is not unusual, The Germans, Irish, Scandanavians do as much.
On the point of corruption. It may surprise you that this is common everywhere in the world, some people do it openly others through off shore companies or calls it loans and use proxies for it and later given them a knighthood.
Of course there is corruption everywhere. It’s just that in Spain it has been taken to new lows with the vast majority of Marbella mayors having spent time in prison for it.
When you buy a property in Britain you get a property, when you do the same in Spain you might get one if you are lucky. Can you see the difference?
@shakeel wrote:
There is an developer in UK, who had over built 60 extra flats than pemitted by the planning permission. The same developer had used a marketing company to influence peddle on behalf of the developers. The marketing company had forged signature of people who objected to the propsed development to show to the Council that there was a favourable backing to the propsed development.
Heaven forbid that that should happen in Spain
@shakeel wrote:
I would just like you know that if you wish to see reality you must look at things a bit deeper and not only read history written by the victors and what media or politicians spins for you and me.
And that statement just goes to prove that arrogance is not the preserve of the British.
-
@shakeel wrote:
Hi Mike:
I have spoken to my Spanish friends and you may not have heard Spaniards saying “Gibralter siempre Espanol”I have heard similar remarks on numerous occasions
@shakeel wrote:
On the subject of the Brits caring about the rights of Gibralterians. In the recent history the Gibralterians had a higher standard of living, this gap is now closing. As they say ( Its the economy stupid).The Brits in the near future will than not have the excuse of the wishes of the people when this evens out and as Britian now has little or no stretegic use of the straights of Gibralter apart from allowing mark Thachter to live there.
It’s no excuse. If you travel to Gibraltar and meet a Gibraltarian, born and bred there, they will tell you that they are British rather than Spanish. You do not have to raise the subject, they will raise it first.
@shakeel wrote:
The dislike of the Spanish by the Gibraltrians stems from Francos actions forced upon by the British policies.
We do have a history of giving fascists a bloody nose, I’m rather pleased that we did the same to the Franco regime.
@shakeel wrote:
I have worked in Gibralter for nearly two months and found them to be as Andaluz as their neighbours in La Linea. In fact many live in La Linea as they could not afford to live/or buy in Gibraltar.
I hope you didn’t tell Gibraltarians that they were as Andalucian as those in La Linea, it would have been so rude. If some of them choose to live in La Linea then good, I would like to see a resolution to this problem.
@shakeel wrote:
Besides, when have Brits cared for the locals. They have always dumped the colonies and have left deep rooted economic/social/politocal problems so that they can never prosper. Its part of Imperialsm and I dont have a problem with it. I undesrtand the situation at Diplomatic/political level and further also understand that might is right wether it is Military or economical might. The thing that concern me is that a Brit feel very smug about things and is blinkered with the views of others and what it government does around the world.
We’re very well received in the US and in India and I know for a fact that many Irish families have integrated very well into English society.
@shakeel wrote:
You may not be aware that The Brit have sold an whole Island in the Atlantic to the Americans and without compensation etc. The island population is at par with Gibralter. The Islanders have been fighting for their Island, they have been ignored by the Brits, even though the Islanders have won their case at all levels in the UK Courts.
I think you may be referring to Diego Garcia in the Indian ocean. John Pilger refers to it in his 1998 book “Hidden Agendas” and he compares the indigenous people, the Ilois, to the Australian Aborigines rather than the Gibraltarians as they have been refused recognition. The Gibraltarians are recognised and consulted on any changes to the constitution.
@shakeel wrote:
The Consulate. I dont see why you should be disappointed about it. I have respect for him that he has broken the protocal (gagging in other words) to speak the truth.
But we’ll never know until you can provide a link. Then I can dissect what he has said and tell you whether I consider it accurate. As it stands it’s just your interpretation and I think we have already established that you are capable of making a mountain out of a molehill.
@shakeel wrote:
In the recent history the Spaniards,Portuguese, Dutch, French had all been trading nations at some/all stage of their existence. So this is a common denominator and your statement of English waving money at Spaniard for his property is not unusual, The Germans, Irish, Scandanavians do as much.
On the point of corruption. It may surprise you that this is common everywhere in the world, some people do it openly others through off shore companies or calls it loans and use proxies for it and later given them a knighthood.
Of course there is corruption everywhere. It’s just that in Spain it has been taken to new lows with the vast majority of Marbella mayors having spent time in prison for it.
When you buy a property in Britain you get a property, when you do the same in Spain you might get one if you are lucky. Can you see the difference?
@shakeel wrote:
There is an developer in UK, who had over built 60 extra flats than pemitted by the planning permission. The same developer had used a marketing company to influence peddle on behalf of the developers. The marketing company had forged signature of people who objected to the propsed development to show to the Council that there was a favourable backing to the propsed development.
Heaven forbid that that should happen in Spain
@shakeel wrote:
I would just like you know that if you wish to see reality you must look at things a bit deeper and not only read history written by the victors and what media or politicians spins for you and me.
And that statement just goes to prove that arrogance is not the preserve of the British.
-
“Gibraltarian, born and bred there, they will tell you that they are British rather than Spanish. “
I have spoken to them and I concur with you that they will claim to be British. They are and were between the devil and the deep blue sea and had no choice and in later years for economic reason they prefered to align themselves to the British. Today they are as much British, that they dont even have a right to a residency in mainland UK. Deep inside they all know that one day they will be dumped by the British and than they have to settle the account with the Spaniards. I personally hope that the settling of the account does not take place.
“We do have a history of giving fascists a bloody nose,”
Not without the help of the Americans and we are now forever indebited to them, speak to a member of the Forces whose love ones have been lost in Iraq, or Afghanistan..
I am no fan of Hitler, Franco, Tito or any such lot. I cant see how the Brits gave Franco the bloody nose.
“I think you may be referring to Diego Garcia in the Indian ocean. John Pilger refers to it in his 1998 book “Hidden Agendas” and he compares the indigenous people, the Ilois” to the Australian Aborigines
Does that make them sub human speciey? and their voice/rights can be ignored with impunity for political aims/goals just because the British decided to refuse to recognize them. Why they have not been recogniozed. The dollars from the Americans were accepted and recognised ???????????
As the Gibraltarians are recognized. The recognitions/or not as the case may be, does not change the historical facts and people and the following generations affacted by those decesions read, experience and remember them. Wether 200 years have passed or not.
“But we’ll never know until you can provide a link “
Sadly the subject did not warrant in my favourite. I am sure that you could research the foreign office records . -
“Gibraltarian, born and bred there, they will tell you that they are British rather than Spanish. “
I have spoken to them and I concur with you that they will claim to be British. They are and were between the devil and the deep blue sea and had no choice and in later years for economic reason they prefered to align themselves to the British. Today they are as much British, that they dont even have a right to a residency in mainland UK. Deep inside they all know that one day they will be dumped by the British and than they have to settle the account with the Spaniards. I personally hope that the settling of the account does not take place.
“We do have a history of giving fascists a bloody nose,”
Not without the help of the Americans and we are now forever indebited to them, speak to a member of the Forces whose love ones have been lost in Iraq, or Afghanistan..
I am no fan of Hitler, Franco, Tito or any such lot. I cant see how the Brits gave Franco the bloody nose.
“I think you may be referring to Diego Garcia in the Indian ocean. John Pilger refers to it in his 1998 book “Hidden Agendas” and he compares the indigenous people, the Ilois” to the Australian Aborigines
Does that make them sub human speciey? and their voice/rights can be ignored with impunity for political aims/goals just because the British decided to refuse to recognize them. Why they have not been recogniozed. The dollars from the Americans were accepted and recognised ???????????
As the Gibraltarians are recognized. The recognitions/or not as the case may be, does not change the historical facts and people and the following generations affacted by those decesions read, experience and remember them. Wether 200 years have passed or not.
“But we’ll never know until you can provide a link “
Sadly the subject did not warrant in my favourite. I am sure that you could research the foreign office records . -
Katy 😀
Tut,Tut
Thought this was supposed to be the Shakeel and Mike show 😀
Think this one will go on forever and good luck if thats what they want as its quite interesting.This is not in the script . 🙂
High bank charges here they can afford to pay for staff who speak English! If you look at the jobs advertised in the CDS press they nearly all say it is necessary to speak English.
I was once at a golf dinner and a member of the junta de Andalucía was present. He and some more Spanish were sitting at the next table. They got into a discussion and a local Spaniard was complaining to the junta rep. about the English peoples lack of Spanish. They were quite critical until finally I had to but in, seeing as all the people at that table earn their living exculsively from tourism, the majority English speaking!
Anyway back to the show ❓
Shakeel said,I am sure you can research the foreign office records. ❓Frank : 😉 😀
-
Katy 😀
Tut,Tut
Thought this was supposed to be the Shakeel and Mike show 😀
Think this one will go on forever and good luck if thats what they want as its quite interesting.This is not in the script . 🙂
High bank charges here they can afford to pay for staff who speak English! If you look at the jobs advertised in the CDS press they nearly all say it is necessary to speak English.
I was once at a golf dinner and a member of the junta de Andalucía was present. He and some more Spanish were sitting at the next table. They got into a discussion and a local Spaniard was complaining to the junta rep. about the English peoples lack of Spanish. They were quite critical until finally I had to but in, seeing as all the people at that table earn their living exculsively from tourism, the majority English speaking!
Anyway back to the show ❓
Shakeel said,I am sure you can research the foreign office records. ❓Frank : 😉 😀
-
@shakeel wrote:
“Gibraltarian, born and bred there, they will tell you that they are British rather than Spanish. “
I have spoken to them and I concur with you that they will claim to be British. They are and were between the devil and the deep blue sea and had no choice and in later years for economic reason they prefered to align themselves to the British. Today they are as much British, that they dont even have a right to a residency in mainland UK. Deep inside they all know that one day they will be dumped by the British and than they have to settle the account with the Spaniards. I personally hope that the settling of the account does not take place.
Your opinion with no supporting facts
@shakeel wrote:
“We do have a history of giving fascists a bloody nose,”
Not without the help of the Americans and we are now forever indebited to them, speak to a member of the Forces whose love ones have been lost in Iraq, or Afghanistan..
I am no fan of Hitler, Franco, Tito or any such lot. I cant see how the Brits gave Franco the bloody nose.
You referred to Franco and his insecurity caused by British policy. Don’t you remember? It’s in this thread. You said
@shakeel wrote:
“The dislike of the Spanish by the Gibraltrians stems from Francos actions forced upon by the British policies”
I’m beginning to believe you continue this argument because you are racist against the British. Or do you have short term memory loss?
@shakeel wrote:
“I think you may be referring to Diego Garcia in the Indian ocean. John Pilger refers to it in his 1998 book “Hidden Agendas” and he compares the indigenous people, the Ilois” to the Australian Aborigines
Does that make them sub human speciey? and their voice/rights can be ignored with impunity for political aims/goals just because the British decided to refuse to recognize them. Why they have not been recogniozed. The dollars from the Americans were accepted and recognised ???????????
I was reporting what John Pilger said and contrasting it to your comparison with the Gilbraltarians. Did you not understand that? Maybe English is not your first language and you are incapable of conversation in this language. I understand if that is so but it makes it difficult to discuss.
@shakeel wrote:
As the Gibraltarians are recognized. The recognitions/or not as the case may be, does not change the historical facts and people and the following generations affacted by those decesions read, experience and remember them. Wether 200 years have passed or not.
Now I am convinced. That sentence makes no sense at all. I think you are proficient at English but not enough to have a conversation, you can’t understand nuances and maybe grammar. This is not meant as an insult, your English is far better than my Spanish.
@shakeel wrote:
“But we’ll never know until you can provide a link “
Sadly the subject did not warrant in my favourite. I am sure that you could research the foreign office records .It doesn’t interest me enough, it’s just an unsubstantiated rumour
-
@shakeel wrote:
“Gibraltarian, born and bred there, they will tell you that they are British rather than Spanish. “
I have spoken to them and I concur with you that they will claim to be British. They are and were between the devil and the deep blue sea and had no choice and in later years for economic reason they prefered to align themselves to the British. Today they are as much British, that they dont even have a right to a residency in mainland UK. Deep inside they all know that one day they will be dumped by the British and than they have to settle the account with the Spaniards. I personally hope that the settling of the account does not take place.
Your opinion with no supporting facts
@shakeel wrote:
“We do have a history of giving fascists a bloody nose,”
Not without the help of the Americans and we are now forever indebited to them, speak to a member of the Forces whose love ones have been lost in Iraq, or Afghanistan..
I am no fan of Hitler, Franco, Tito or any such lot. I cant see how the Brits gave Franco the bloody nose.
You referred to Franco and his insecurity caused by British policy. Don’t you remember? It’s in this thread. You said
@shakeel wrote:
“The dislike of the Spanish by the Gibraltrians stems from Francos actions forced upon by the British policies”
I’m beginning to believe you continue this argument because you are racist against the British. Or do you have short term memory loss?
@shakeel wrote:
“I think you may be referring to Diego Garcia in the Indian ocean. John Pilger refers to it in his 1998 book “Hidden Agendas” and he compares the indigenous people, the Ilois” to the Australian Aborigines
Does that make them sub human speciey? and their voice/rights can be ignored with impunity for political aims/goals just because the British decided to refuse to recognize them. Why they have not been recogniozed. The dollars from the Americans were accepted and recognised ???????????
I was reporting what John Pilger said and contrasting it to your comparison with the Gilbraltarians. Did you not understand that? Maybe English is not your first language and you are incapable of conversation in this language. I understand if that is so but it makes it difficult to discuss.
@shakeel wrote:
As the Gibraltarians are recognized. The recognitions/or not as the case may be, does not change the historical facts and people and the following generations affacted by those decesions read, experience and remember them. Wether 200 years have passed or not.
Now I am convinced. That sentence makes no sense at all. I think you are proficient at English but not enough to have a conversation, you can’t understand nuances and maybe grammar. This is not meant as an insult, your English is far better than my Spanish.
@shakeel wrote:
“But we’ll never know until you can provide a link “
Sadly the subject did not warrant in my favourite. I am sure that you could research the foreign office records .It doesn’t interest me enough, it’s just an unsubstantiated rumour
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I am not racist against anybody. Besides I do not feel that for the sake of political correctness I should not call a spade a spade.
I dont know how Franco got a bloody nose from the Brits. His time was up as nothing last forever and from what I read he died of natural causes.
It can be argued that if the Brits and other Northern Europeans had not helped the economy by using the package holidays on the Costas, his demised may have come early.
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I am not racist against anybody. Besides I do not feel that for the sake of political correctness I should not call a spade a spade.
I dont know how Franco got a bloody nose from the Brits. His time was up as nothing last forever and from what I read he died of natural causes.
It can be argued that if the Brits and other Northern Europeans had not helped the economy by using the package holidays on the Costas, his demised may have come early.
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@shakeel wrote:
I am not racist against anybody. Besides I do not feel that for the sake of political correctness I should not call a spade a spade.
I’m disappointed that people like you are allowed to vote.
@shakeel wrote:
I dont know how Franco got a bloody nose from the Brits. His time was up as nothing last forever and from what I read he died of natural causes.
It seems that you refuse to listen or you are unable to understand
@shakeel wrote:
It can be argued that if the Brits and other Northern Europeans had not helped the economy by using the package holidays on the Costas, his demised may have come early.
I don’t think you are capable of any argument. I think you are a blithering idiot.
Would you like to buy a beach front Benalmadena property? I could get you a 20% discount
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@shakeel wrote:
I am not racist against anybody. Besides I do not feel that for the sake of political correctness I should not call a spade a spade.
I’m disappointed that people like you are allowed to vote.
@shakeel wrote:
I dont know how Franco got a bloody nose from the Brits. His time was up as nothing last forever and from what I read he died of natural causes.
It seems that you refuse to listen or you are unable to understand
@shakeel wrote:
It can be argued that if the Brits and other Northern Europeans had not helped the economy by using the package holidays on the Costas, his demised may have come early.
I don’t think you are capable of any argument. I think you are a blithering idiot.
Would you like to buy a beach front Benalmadena property? I could get you a 20% discount
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@mike wrote:
I don’t think you are capable of any argument. I think you are a blithering idiot.
Earlier you were quite insulting towards me via a post I had made but I let it go on the grounds I was not going to sink to your level – ie the 4th floor of the underground car park! However, your arrogance really does prove that IT IS the preserve of the British.
@mike wrote:
I assure you that I have seen many drunken Spanish, in fact I was drinking with them at the time.
Well I have just returned from a good night out, drinking heavily with guys wearing green uniforms, driving green and white Nissan Patrols with blue lights on the top who are on duty till 6am! I think that your arrogance earlier towards me and now towards a very good and genuine contributor to this forum in shakeel means that further comments on your posts are due.
@mike wrote:
I, in my 15 years living in London, never encountered any shop assistant, waiter, barman or London Underground Information clerk who did not speak English. Maybe you lived in a poor part of London in which there were a lot of recently arrived immigrants.
@mike wrote:
Last year I returned to England after 5 years and to Manchester after 20 years.
Obviously a lot of things have changed since you lived in London!! To put the record straight, I am a true Cockney but have never actually lived within London myself. In terms of where my own home was when in the UK, I can assure you that Epping was and is not a poor area. In fact, because I have now been able to sell my old family home since my eldest son is over 18 and my ex-wife no longer has a lifetime meal ticket, I have been able to move to a very large Villa here now – that is the reason my town house is for sale as I no longer need it!!
I actually referred in my post to the only area of London that I ever bother to visit these days, the West End / Theatre land. There you will find a lot of the tourists you refer to (including me!) and at £65 for a theatre seat you are right – we do spend heavily! That area is not a poor area by any means. In fact, it is fair to say that the area has quite a level of culture. Culture is something that can not be found in Moss Side unless of course we refer to drug culture, gun culture, knife culture, gang culture! Try asking anyone at Piccadilly Circus station working for LT a question in English and get a reply in understandable English!
@mike wrote:
You have seen the ultras? They were the racists that shamed Spain when they played England by making monkey chants towards our black players.
I assume you refer to some chanting that happened at a ground just south west of Manchester in a place called Trafford (sorry Manchester only has one football team and they play in blue!). Not nice but wasn’t Trafford United once managed by a guy called Ron Atkinson who previously went there as a visiting manager of West Bromwich Albion? As I remember, Big Ron was the first manager in (the old) English First Division to have the guts to field not one but three black players. On a visit to Old Trafford, those three players were thrown bananas by the home crowd despite all being British? No racism in English football or in the Manchester area? I think the words, pot, kettle and (at a risk of being politically incorrect!) black jump to mind.
@mike wrote:
If you watch Spanish television you will see many references to wife beating but I suppose if it happens indoors and doesn’t frighten the horses it is OK?
Whilst Spanish TV may well report what happens, you fail to say what the end results are – like 5 years inside for the guilty man after he has had a pasting from the Police / Guardia! In the UK it is merely swept under the carpet.
@mike wrote:
I returned to live in Moss Side
I would have thought that the sale of any property in Moss Side would not raise enough funds to buy the smallest studio on the CDS. More over, I don’t think Manchester council would be happy with anyone selling their housing stock anyway!
@mike wrote:
why on earth did they allow those tacky little British bars all around Benalmadena and Fuengirola?
Agree – why oh why? Mind you I suppose Spain follows the rules in relation to the single market (and currency) that goes with being a full EU member. They have had to allow the Brits to dump their unwanted John Smiths, Tetley’s and Boddingtons somewhere in the EU! At least I was and with my new property still am out of the problem areas – ie the areas that Brit tourists use!
@mike wrote:
Much as you and the other expats would wish it otherwise, the louts walking around bare chested with union jack shorts and throwing up due to drinking too much alcohol are on the costa del sol
Unfortunately – maybe the CAA in the UK should control who leaves the UK for Malaga.
@mike wrote:
Soon, I would imagine it would be impossible to step outside on the costa del sol without stepping into a pool of vomit.
But I guess that is preferable to stepping into the pools of blood and spent bullets in the UK and particularly Moss Side.
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@mike wrote:
I don’t think you are capable of any argument. I think you are a blithering idiot.
Earlier you were quite insulting towards me via a post I had made but I let it go on the grounds I was not going to sink to your level – ie the 4th floor of the underground car park! However, your arrogance really does prove that IT IS the preserve of the British.
@mike wrote:
I assure you that I have seen many drunken Spanish, in fact I was drinking with them at the time.
Well I have just returned from a good night out, drinking heavily with guys wearing green uniforms, driving green and white Nissan Patrols with blue lights on the top who are on duty till 6am! I think that your arrogance earlier towards me and now towards a very good and genuine contributor to this forum in shakeel means that further comments on your posts are due.
@mike wrote:
I, in my 15 years living in London, never encountered any shop assistant, waiter, barman or London Underground Information clerk who did not speak English. Maybe you lived in a poor part of London in which there were a lot of recently arrived immigrants.
@mike wrote:
Last year I returned to England after 5 years and to Manchester after 20 years.
Obviously a lot of things have changed since you lived in London!! To put the record straight, I am a true Cockney but have never actually lived within London myself. In terms of where my own home was when in the UK, I can assure you that Epping was and is not a poor area. In fact, because I have now been able to sell my old family home since my eldest son is over 18 and my ex-wife no longer has a lifetime meal ticket, I have been able to move to a very large Villa here now – that is the reason my town house is for sale as I no longer need it!!
I actually referred in my post to the only area of London that I ever bother to visit these days, the West End / Theatre land. There you will find a lot of the tourists you refer to (including me!) and at £65 for a theatre seat you are right – we do spend heavily! That area is not a poor area by any means. In fact, it is fair to say that the area has quite a level of culture. Culture is something that can not be found in Moss Side unless of course we refer to drug culture, gun culture, knife culture, gang culture! Try asking anyone at Piccadilly Circus station working for LT a question in English and get a reply in understandable English!
@mike wrote:
You have seen the ultras? They were the racists that shamed Spain when they played England by making monkey chants towards our black players.
I assume you refer to some chanting that happened at a ground just south west of Manchester in a place called Trafford (sorry Manchester only has one football team and they play in blue!). Not nice but wasn’t Trafford United once managed by a guy called Ron Atkinson who previously went there as a visiting manager of West Bromwich Albion? As I remember, Big Ron was the first manager in (the old) English First Division to have the guts to field not one but three black players. On a visit to Old Trafford, those three players were thrown bananas by the home crowd despite all being British? No racism in English football or in the Manchester area? I think the words, pot, kettle and (at a risk of being politically incorrect!) black jump to mind.
@mike wrote:
If you watch Spanish television you will see many references to wife beating but I suppose if it happens indoors and doesn’t frighten the horses it is OK?
Whilst Spanish TV may well report what happens, you fail to say what the end results are – like 5 years inside for the guilty man after he has had a pasting from the Police / Guardia! In the UK it is merely swept under the carpet.
@mike wrote:
I returned to live in Moss Side
I would have thought that the sale of any property in Moss Side would not raise enough funds to buy the smallest studio on the CDS. More over, I don’t think Manchester council would be happy with anyone selling their housing stock anyway!
@mike wrote:
why on earth did they allow those tacky little British bars all around Benalmadena and Fuengirola?
Agree – why oh why? Mind you I suppose Spain follows the rules in relation to the single market (and currency) that goes with being a full EU member. They have had to allow the Brits to dump their unwanted John Smiths, Tetley’s and Boddingtons somewhere in the EU! At least I was and with my new property still am out of the problem areas – ie the areas that Brit tourists use!
@mike wrote:
Much as you and the other expats would wish it otherwise, the louts walking around bare chested with union jack shorts and throwing up due to drinking too much alcohol are on the costa del sol
Unfortunately – maybe the CAA in the UK should control who leaves the UK for Malaga.
@mike wrote:
Soon, I would imagine it would be impossible to step outside on the costa del sol without stepping into a pool of vomit.
But I guess that is preferable to stepping into the pools of blood and spent bullets in the UK and particularly Moss Side.
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@paulandlyn wrote:
@mike wrote:
I returned to live in Moss Side
I would have thought that the sale of any property in Moss Side would not raise enough funds to buy the smallest studio on the CDS. More over, I don’t think Manchester council would be happy with anyone selling their housing stock anyway!
Oh the irony. At least property in Moss Side will still sell.
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@paulandlyn wrote:
@mike wrote:
I returned to live in Moss Side
I would have thought that the sale of any property in Moss Side would not raise enough funds to buy the smallest studio on the CDS. More over, I don’t think Manchester council would be happy with anyone selling their housing stock anyway!
Oh the irony. At least property in Moss Side will still sell.
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