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forestfire wrote:Am I reading that right? currently down 7%.
The spanish economy, nevermind the housing market, is on the precipice.
I would be interested to hear an estate agent put a positive spin on this…No doubt they will blame America, it is always the fault of America when things go wrong. Gordon Broon will blame America,The Cobbler will blame America.
The main reasons of greed ,corruption, allowing people to place debt upon debt upon debt, banks lending like men with no arms and then not lending, will be forgotten.
One should remember the saying of a very wise man ,Mark Twain ;who said
“A banker is like a man who when the sun is shining offers to loan you his umbrella, when a few drops of rain fall he demands it back”
Ibex 35, down to 10.000?
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forestfire wrote:Well obviously it’s not happy news but I don’t think that a stock market or property sell off is necessarily bad news -it’s just part of the natural cycle. We have property booms then slumps, we have great economic growth, then recessions. It’s all part of the natural process.
The problem is when the stock market crash combines with real estate crash and with high inflation.
The result might a perfect storm…
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Apparently, the stock markets are worried that our Leader, Mr Bush, has not done enough to prevent America sliding into recession. The worry is that the rest of the World will follow (or at least those countries most exposed such as the UK and Spain)
And yes, recessions are a normal part of the economic cycle and shake out slack – such as excessive Local Community Charges for crap pointless jobs in your locality!
Why are we so obsessed with Economic growth anyway? It only gobbles up the Earth’s resources at an ever increasing rate. Why are we having this ‘all out war with the planet,’, rather than nurturing the place that feeds us? Why not keep the World’s population stable and accept zero growth; would this not be more sustainable. The problem is, instead of thinking of a house as a shelter and home, we think of it as an investment to make more money. The trouble with greed is that it is never satisfied; and buying houses in Spain is another form of greed.
And lets face it, the quickest way to prevent global warming, would be to half the Worlds population. Problem solved. (And yes, I know this is not a global warming forum etc etc) 😆
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@forestfire wrote:
Am I reading that right? currently down 7%.
The spanish economy, nevermind the housing market, is on the precipice.
I would be interested to hear an estate agent put a positive spin on this…It’s not just Spain, the world stock markets are also down…!
FTSE 100 5666.2 down -235.50
Dax 6888.7 down -425.45
Cac 40 4814.0 down -278.38
Dow Jones 12099.3 down -59.91
Nasdaq 2340.0 down -6.88
S&P 500 1325.2 down -8.06
BBC Global 30 5625.3 down -96.65 -
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Spot-on Clare. I dare not even look at my Bank Balance at the moment, because I know Christmas has ‘blown me out’. There’s a comfort in keeping ‘one’s head-in-the sand’! Stupid though!! 😆
Still only a few days to that pay-cheque…… Then, what shall I buy next? What about a nice villa near Vera? Going for a song I hear. 😈
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ian_ok wrote:forestfire wrote:Am I reading that right? currently down 7%.
The spanish economy, nevermind the housing market, is on the precipice.
I would be interested to hear an estate agent put a positive spin on this…It’s not just Spain, the world stock markets are also down…!
FTSE 100 5666.2 down -235.50
Dax 6888.7 down -425.45
Cac 40 4814.0 down -278.38
Dow Jones 12099.3 down -59.91
Nasdaq 2340.0 down -6.88
S&P 500 1325.2 down -8.06
BBC Global 30 5625.3 down -96.65FTSE biggest fall ever.
DAX down 7%. France down 7%.
Some mortgage insurers down 50% .
The real estate excesses are dragging the entire world economy into the abiss.
Or maybe the world economy was kept afloat by the real estate boom and excesses and now we see that the emperor has no clothes…
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A bloodbath. The worst historic fall for the Ibex. This is like a déjà vue of 1987.
A financial tsunami has swept today throughout Europe and Asia. And the US stock market is on holiday today (Dr Luther King) ! The US might be sneazing but we Europeans have catched the bird flu !
Ironic how Colonial and Northern Rock were the best stocks today. Life has it’s small twists of irony.
What a day. I wonder what tomorrow will bring. 😯
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shakeel wrote:This should all point to lower interest rates in USA & UK, not sure about ECB ???.
I am not sure if this is possible.
The inflation in UK is higher and higher after the 15% hike in gas prices,
15% hike in electricty prices, record oil price, record bread price, record milk, egg and vegetable prices.I have heard that in USA inflation is also the highest in recent memory.
They will probably cut the rates but they will regret it in the future.
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I think that the inflation stats are about as reliable as the housing stats. Inflation is supposed to be at 3.1 in the euro zone -but how can that be right when you look at the way our fuel costs have rocketed over the last few years. I go to Carrefour once a month and every time the price of food has gone up. This sounds like south america but it is actually happening in Spain. By my “highly scientific” method of picking a figure from the air I would estimate that inflation is running probably 3X the official figure. (& as for 2% in the UK -don’t make me laugh).
I think there is a good chance that Bobo the clown Bernanke at the Fed will cut rates today, and I agree with ralitas comment -they will regret it in the future. It’s like giving a new credit card to someone already chronically in debt. The markets see through it, they are getting hammered again today. It may offer a brief respite, but I think in essence it will just offer the hedge funds an oppportunity to short the markets and lock in those multi million pound bonuses that we keep hearing about. -
Forest fire I agree about the future. The crises is of a fire fighting nature at present.
In so far as the UK inflation is concerned it is always the case, in order to settle low wage claims by the civil service etc. ( I am not a civil servant nor a fan of them in any Country) Besides the items of product in the basket to measure inflation is based on items imported and as such not in the control of UK producers. A chunk of inflation is tax induced.
We should not forget that as economies are focusing on bio fuels lot of household items will become expensive.
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I think there is a good chance that Bobo the clown Bernanke at the Fed will cut rates today, and I agree with ralitas comment -they will regret it in the future
Yes, excellent point Forestfire. The World’s economic conditions are against the developed West now. Demand from emerging countries will outstrip demand pushing raw prices ever-upwards. Remember the days when interest rates were the norm at 12%?
Those of us with mortgages will get a window of opportunity for a fix at a lower rate this year. I’m going to go for a 10 year fix in September. If, say I can secure 4.5% then this may look ridiculously cheap in a couple of years time.
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@ralita wrote:
I really hope and pray I won’t be right. A mild recession is one thing and we will all easily survive, a bad recession is something else…
I don’t see how it could be a mild recession. Everyone is maxed out on credit and the banks are only able to stay solvent because the central banks will lend them money on bonds backed by mortgages which no one else will touch with a bargepole.
We’ve borrowed too much and paid well over the odds for property which will shortly be worth a lot less than we thought. I reckon that there will be some sub prime lending in the UK but by far the worst mislending will be from those banks that for a while assumed that anyone English was rich and lent them money to buy property that they couldn’t possibly afford.
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@ralita wrote:
@mike wrote:
@ralita wrote:
I don’t see how it could be a mild recession.
I do not see either but I am still praying…
USA just cut the rate by .75%. If they do the same in UK, having money in banks at the current inflation will make no sense…
If the ECB don’t drop rates then Clubmed won’t be such an attractive holiday destination this year. If they do drop rates what will the Germans say?
I thought last year was interesting, 2008 is shaping up to be even better
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Spanish stock market finish 23/01/08
Index Previous Latest %fall Day hi Day lo
IBEX-35 12.839,70 12.254,60 -4,56 13.038,10 12.164,10The falls continue despite the assurances of Mr Cobbler only two stocks up on the day.
One stock I am glad to see falling like a stone is Telefonica, I hate that company with a passion; the way they treat their customers is an outrage , typical monopoly situation. heard they were going to appeal against the big fine imposed by the European Council Competition Dept for their tricks , slow download speeds etc when selling internet connections to other companies, any one heard how the appeal is going ? although I expect it will take years to be decided, as is the way with that institution. -
Spanish stock market finish 23/01/08
Index Previous Latest %fall Day hi Day lo
IBEX-35 12.839,70 12.254,60 -4,56 13.038,10 12.164,10The falls continue despite the assurances of Mr Cobbler only two stocks up on the day.
One stock I am glad to see falling like a stone is Telefonica, I hate that company with a passion; the way they treat their customers is an outrage , typical monopoly situation. heard they were going to appeal against the big fine imposed by the European Council Competition Dept for their tricks , slow download speeds etc when selling internet connections to other companies, any one heard how the appeal is going ? although I expect it will take years to be decided, as is the way with that institution. -
Happiness and Telefonica are incompatible. I’m glad to say I have managed to eradicate Telefonica from my life.
Anyway, stock market up 4.68% this morning. One minute it’s suicidal, the next euphoric. Talk about a personality disorder. Surely this recent period of volatility blows the efficient market theory out of the water. Strikes me that the stock markets consist of a bunch of fools chasing each other around like a shoal of herring. And these guys manage our pensions!! For a hefty fee of course.
Mark
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Happiness and Telefonica are incompatible. I’m glad to say I have managed to eradicate Telefonica from my life.
Anyway, stock market up 4.68% this morning. One minute it’s suicidal, the next euphoric. Talk about a personality disorder. Surely this recent period of volatility blows the efficient market theory out of the water. Strikes me that the stock markets consist of a bunch of fools chasing each other around like a shoal of herring. And these guys manage our pensions!! For a hefty fee of course.
Mark
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mark wrote:Vodafone for mobile, Ono (cable) for broadband, telephone and cable TV. So far so good.
Mark
LATEST STOCKMARKET ;
ACCIONES DEL IBEX 35
Jueves, 24 de Enero de 2008 (13:15)
Índice Anterior Último Dif. (%) Máximo Mínimo
IBEX-35 12.254,60 12.912,50 5,37 12.979,80 12.490,60Mark ref your being free of Telefonica not sure this is completely true.. I may be wrong but I think ONO get their lines from Telefonica. Wanadoo had so many problems with their internet lines from the the aforementioned company that they denounced them to the European Union Competition Agency ,some name like that, and Telefonica were asked to pay a fine of 151m Euro, of course they have appealed backed up by Mr Cobbler and his friends. Watch this space.
Hope Vodafone and ONO continue to come up trumps for you.
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mark wrote:Vodafone for mobile, Ono (cable) for broadband, telephone and cable TV. So far so good.
Mark
LATEST STOCKMARKET ;
ACCIONES DEL IBEX 35
Jueves, 24 de Enero de 2008 (13:15)
Índice Anterior Último Dif. (%) Máximo Mínimo
IBEX-35 12.254,60 12.912,50 5,37 12.979,80 12.490,60Mark ref your being free of Telefonica not sure this is completely true.. I may be wrong but I think ONO get their lines from Telefonica. Wanadoo had so many problems with their internet lines from the the aforementioned company that they denounced them to the European Union Competition Agency ,some name like that, and Telefonica were asked to pay a fine of 151m Euro, of course they have appealed backed up by Mr Cobbler and his friends. Watch this space.
Hope Vodafone and ONO continue to come up trumps for you.
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135,
Ono has its own cable network, unlike Wanadoo, who have to rent lines from Telefonica. At some point their networks must interface, but at least the line that comes into my house is a coaxial cable, not one of Telefonica’s copper wires. Problem is that Ono are only available in some areas, mainly big cities.
I started off in 2001 with Terra (Telefonica). Disaster.
Then I tried a start-up who rented lines from Telefonica. They went bust.
Then I tried Ya.com for a while, but like Wandadoo, they depend upon Telefonica, so it was one problem after another.
Now on Ono, and as I say, so far so good.
If I didn’t have this option, I would use the Vodafone data card for broadband internet. I have one anyway, it’s not too bad. Otherwise Satellite broadband. More expensive, but worth every cent if it works well.
A lady from Telefonica rang me yesterday asking if I would like to switch to them. I wanted to give her a piece of my mind, but what’s the point: she is just a cog in the wheel.
Mark
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135,
Ono has its own cable network, unlike Wanadoo, who have to rent lines from Telefonica. At some point their networks must interface, but at least the line that comes into my house is a coaxial cable, not one of Telefonica’s copper wires. Problem is that Ono are only available in some areas, mainly big cities.
I started off in 2001 with Terra (Telefonica). Disaster.
Then I tried a start-up who rented lines from Telefonica. They went bust.
Then I tried Ya.com for a while, but like Wandadoo, they depend upon Telefonica, so it was one problem after another.
Now on Ono, and as I say, so far so good.
If I didn’t have this option, I would use the Vodafone data card for broadband internet. I have one anyway, it’s not too bad. Otherwise Satellite broadband. More expensive, but worth every cent if it works well.
A lady from Telefonica rang me yesterday asking if I would like to switch to them. I wanted to give her a piece of my mind, but what’s the point: she is just a cog in the wheel.
Mark
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Back to the main topic.
This article from Bloomberg points out the risks to Spain from the credit crunch and a housing pop.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aajXobh_gqBcSounds like we have a Spanish sub-prime mortgage crisis in the post.
Yet the Ibex is up more than 5% today, with banks leading the way.
You can rest assured that it will be back down soon.
Mark
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Back to the main topic.
This article from Bloomberg points out the risks to Spain from the credit crunch and a housing pop.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aajXobh_gqBcSounds like we have a Spanish sub-prime mortgage crisis in the post.
Yet the Ibex is up more than 5% today, with banks leading the way.
You can rest assured that it will be back down soon.
Mark
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mark wrote:Back to the main topic.
This article from Bloomberg points out the risks to Spain from the credit crunch and a housing pop.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aajXobh_gqBcSounds like we have a Spanish sub-prime mortgage crisis in the post.
Yet the Ibex is up more than 5% today, with banks leading the way.
You can rest assured that it will be back down soon.
Mark
I agree Mark a lot of it could be squaring positions, for example people sell shares they do not own and have to buy these shares sometime. Economic fundamentals would suggest a level of 10.000 for the Ibex not 13.000.
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mark wrote:Back to the main topic.
This article from Bloomberg points out the risks to Spain from the credit crunch and a housing pop.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aajXobh_gqBcSounds like we have a Spanish sub-prime mortgage crisis in the post.
Yet the Ibex is up more than 5% today, with banks leading the way.
You can rest assured that it will be back down soon.
Mark
I agree Mark a lot of it could be squaring positions, for example people sell shares they do not own and have to buy these shares sometime. Economic fundamentals would suggest a level of 10.000 for the Ibex not 13.000.
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