Hi Bun.

Your lawyer should charge you a minimum of 800-1000 Euros. In your case 985 E would amount to 1%. I sincerely hope you are not releasing equity against your house in the UK because you are putting yourself and your familys' future at jeopardy doing this.

Do not enter into british equity release schemes at all (fortunately you cannot get them in Spain in Spanish banks). They are devised to make the lenders profit, it's a win-win for the lenders.

The developer is in charge of obtaining the bank gurantee because he is legally obliged to do so, not yourself.

Your lawyer must pester the developer until he gets it. You in turn pester your lawyer until he faxes over you the copy. Do not take the word of the lawyer for that, DEMAND the copy of bank guarantee to be faxed over to you, accept NO EXCUSES because there are none. It is legally an imperative duty, no excuses. Check the amount that is being guaranteed, it should be your 30% plus 3.000 E deposit, if it isn't, go back to your lawyer and put things straight, even menacing that you will take him to the ICAM (rather drastic but it works fine with us I must admit). The bank guarantee or insurance policy ONLY covers the ALL the money you've paid until then and has a limited deadline or timeline to enforce it, be careful on this. And start learning Spanish, you'll find yourself more protected.

That bank guarantee will be obtained by the developer normally many months after you've paid the 3.000 E deposit plus the 30% downpayment.

What happens until then ? You pray ... alot.

New laws passed stop builders from going "bust" and dissapearing after they have your monies much like in Spain in the seventies and eighties, because they are made PERSONALLY liable with their own personal assets no matter if its a Limited Liability constructora firm; of course they can then in turn put all thier assets under the name of his mother/wife and declare himself broke, but there are ways. The problem is that litigation in Spain takes ad eternum.

An independant lawyer has your 3.000 E. So what ? Means nothing. Demand from your lawyer the DEPOSIT CONTRACT your lawyer signed. No one puts down a deposit for off-plan without signing a scrap of paper even. In 100% of cases this deposit is non-refundable. If you pull out you lose it completely and there is nothing you can do. That deposit strikes off the property from the market.

I seriously recommend you not to purchase property in Spain now, any kind, because in two or three years time you'll get it cheaper. Mark my words.

Interesting comment Drakan. I happen to agree but would appreciate your insight on such a view. I placed deposits on two off plan properties earlier this year, but backed out of both, and I am sitting on the fence waiting for the prices to drop.

Regards

Kevin

Hi Kevin,

All my comments on real estate and where we're heading in Spain are in the web Housepricecrash.com

I'll paste the links :

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/ ... topic=3645

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/ ... =6846&st=0

I started writing there for exactly the same reasons I did here a few days ago, to set the record straight regarding unfounded criticisms to Spain´s Laws and it's Lawyers.

Only because three or four unscrupulously run law firms which work all too "closely" with huge british real estate agencies on the costas are continously placing all of us in the spotlight giving us a tainted reputation, this must be addressed and stopped.

Regards,
Drakan

The first time we bought(10 years ago) we used a Lawyer without any partners and he was wonderful, not less expensive but the going rate. He explained everything and whenever I called he always got back to us ASAP. After completion he took us for a meal and also bought us a framed print we had admired in his office.
The second time, he had joined a partnership (gabinete?) and was ok. but didn't even spend the time to have a coffee with us and sometimes took ages to answer our calls.

The third time we used someone else as we had a dispute with our neighbour who is in the same gabinete so we used the lawyer of Viva estates. (We were only selling so it didn't matter too much) The lawyer was Anderson and it was only when a problem arose with our buyer trying to delay things that we found out we had the same lawyer!! They tried to deny this by saying they were two different people working out of the same office. It all worked out ok. but imagine if things hadn't.

I would say to anyone try to use a smaller lawyer, someone who you have heard of by word-of-mouth if possible and always get a breakdown of the likely costs first.

Drakan, thank you for working so hard on this subject for everybody.

Tania, don't get too down when some people critisize you and many of us for 'hoping' to make a profit in Spain and not being dilligent enough. Sometimes it's them who miss the point because it's the purchasers who are too often misled by 'crooked, in my opinion' estate agents who are acting as advisors even investment advisors, mostly British as well, who constantly talk the market up. The fact is when they have you hooked with a deposit paid, they've got you and move on to the next purchaser and their next fast buck.

It's these agents and some of their recommended lawyers who should be weeded out and barred from operating, but Spain's regulatory bodies do nothing. I think this makes the Spanish Gov't as guilty as the crooks for doing nothing, my opinion only.

The more this problem is exposed/aired publicly the more chance of stopping it.

You're welcome Paul.

Exactly, it is up to you, the clients of these so-called lawyers, to protest and expose them in the media or complain at the ICAM.

We are all too aware of them, If you only knew , but we cannot do anything, it must be the clients themselves who must confront and challenge their apalling behaviour.

In any case you can count on me to help British and Irish, as well as other foreigners, in what I possibly can in this forum or at the Housepricecrash website.

Hi anonymous.

That is illegal and unethical from a deonthological standpoint. The same lawyer cannot and should not work for both parties as it is only blatant. I don't even need to look it up in the law codes. It is only logical.

Them lawyers you mention, well, what can I say ? I'll shut my mouth.

HELLO DRAKAN THANKS FOR ALL YOUR HELP, RE FEES WITH LAWYER I THINK MY LAWYER WORKS ON HIS OWN IN MALAGA,AS WHEN EVER IVE CALLED HIM HE IS ALLWAYS ON END OF PHONE, NOT SURE AS TO HOW I ASK HIM TO REDUCE HIS FEES AS HE IS ALL READY HOLDING 50% OF HIS FEES? AS FOR DEVELOPMENT ITS AWAY FROM COAST AND INLAND, IM NOT LOOKING AT MAKING MONEY, THINKING OF HOLDING FOR ABOUT 10 YEARS , I THINK PRICES ARE MORE CHEAPER INLAND AND MIGHT NOT FALL AS HARD AS COAST OR MAYBE IM DREAMING, IM STILL TRYING TO FIND ANY INFORMATION ABOUT THIS DEVELOPER BUT I CAN NOT FIND ANY THING ON GRUPO RUDINA BUT WILL KEEP LOOKING, BUT WITH ALL THE IMFORMATION I NOW HAVE AT LEAST I CAN CHECK IF MY LAWYER IS DOING HIS WORK OK , SHAME I NEVER HAD A LAWYER LIKE YOU DRAKEN , A KIND PERSON ON THIS FORUM IN SPAIN I THINK CALLED UP TOWN HALL IN IZZNALLOZ AND WAS TOLD BUILDING LICENCE IS GOING THROUGH AND SHOULD NOT BE TO LONG,, I TO HOPE IM NOT MAKEING A WRONGE CHOICE, BUT THE RIGHT CHOICE IS NOT TO BUY ON OVER DEVELOPED COAST THANKS BUN..

Hi Drakan,

I hope you haven't been too innundated with queries after your generous offer to respond and have time to answer my question.

We bought off-plan in 2002 - wish we had seen all the good advice on this site before we did so - with a completion date of early 2004. At that time the developer did not have a building licence so we waited over a year for that to be issued.

We were about to sign the escritura in May this year when our adviser - a Graduate Social - told us that there was no Habitation Certificate, so we did not.

We have paid the contract price in full. We have also paid for builders supply power and water. The developer has refused to give us the keys.

We know that we can take the developer to court and have started proceedings but this adds on another year and we have already waited too long to use our house.

Is there anything we can do to get our keys now, other than roll over and let the developer take away all of our legal rights by signing the escritura.

I would be very grateful for any advice.

Tilly

Hi Tilly.

I'm at a loss with your post.

You've hired a graduado social to help you out instead of a lawyer ???!!!

That's as If I go to a lawyer to have my teeth pulled out instead of a dentist (no pun intended).

I've read your post three times and I'm still unsure.

The cédula de habitabilidad hasn't been granted by the town hall yet I take it.

So you have a property off-plan for which you've alredy paid the full price and you havent gone yet to the notaries to complete ? That is despicable to say the least.

You are not obliged to complete at the notaries If the Licencia de primera ocupación hasn't been granted yet, they cannot force you and you would win at the courts.

The electricity, water etc...is paid at completion at the notaries once the building is over, the licencia de primera ocupación has been granted by the town hall and you have the licencia de final de obras.

You NEVER pay to the developer all the money without all these guarantees and licencias. Do you have an insurance policy to ensure all the payments you've done until now ? This is very important should the developers experience "financial troubles".

Please explain and expand further on a post hereinbelow so I discern exactly your legal status.

If you are a foreigner purchasing in Spain always use a duly qualified lawyer who is collegiated at the Bar Council of his province. In this case if something goes wrong and you are wrongly advised you have a professionalindeminity fund worth 300 k E per lawyer/case.

A "graduado social" IIRC is a professional who deals with the social security, lay offs, labour issues. He has NO legal knowledge whatsoever outside his very specific professional scope. Professiopnal intrusism is the word that comes to mind If they are acting in conveyancing ...

These are thier functions in Spanish:

http://www.graduadosocial-va.com/index. ... e&SubMenu=

Hi Drakan,

Thank you for your reply.

Obviously this is one of those 'brains left at the airport' situations. We came to look (independently) not to buy, but on our last day found the perfect development, perfect plot etc. Beautiful part-built urbanisation, many great facilities advertised in glossy English magazines, English, Dutch and German agents on-site in developers offices, people queuing to buy. The English agent said we would not need a lawyer as she would deal with the legal side of things (I know, I know!! ) We signed intending to ask other purchasers for good lawyer recommendations. Unfortunately no-one we know has a lawyer they consider worth recommending!

We were told we could take our house in March 2004 but with no roads, no pavements, no escritura. Turned out to be no building licence too - this was not issued until February 2005.

We waited for the escritura - we thought that this was the document that made everything legal. We planned to sign and therefore made the final payment in advance as the developer will not turn up at the Notary without cleared funds in their account. Although we did not sign the escritura the developer said they would hand over the keys on receipt of payment for connections to builders supply power and water and a lump sum payment in advance for usage. After taking this cheque they refused to hand over the keys.

We took advice from the Graduado Social because she advises the residents association. We understood the position to be a lawyer/accountant. On her advice we didn't sign the escritura but hundreds of people, maybe as many as 500, mainly British, have signed with the approval of their lawyers. No houses in the urbanisation have Habitation Certificates from the Town Hall although some have been occupied for over three years.

We have Bank Guarantees for 75% of our payments - not for the initial deposit, final payment and connection fees.

We know we have a good case, although no-one will guarantee it. The problem is the length of time it takes to work through the legal system - probably a year. We have already waited such a long time and would love to know if there was some way of forcing the developer to hand over our keys.

Thanks,
Tilly

I feel relieved If you have a bank guarantee covering the payments you've done.

Thanks Drakan,

We cannot get a Bank Guarantee for the last payment, made in May of this year. And you can't live in a Bank Guarantee!

What we want is our house without giving away all of the rights we would have under Spanish law if we weren't coerced into signing them away with the escritura.

Do you know if there is a government consumer organisation that might be able to help, especially as so many people are affected.

Tilly

There's the Andalucías Consumer Law with very stiff penalties.
There's also a nationwide Consumer Law

You have the all-powerful spanish OCU:

http://www.ocu.org/

Drakan,

Thank you sooo much for your edited reply I will go away and digest it now.

Kind regards,

Claire.