Spanish Property forums :: Spanish Lawyers

if I had known a site like this existed over two years ago I would have had second thoughts about putting a deposit down on an off-plan development in Spain.

I certainly would have done my research on lawyers too as they don't seem to be trustworthy.

The market of developers/solicitors/agents appears to be awash with crooks!!!!

Why do the solicitors not think we are entitled to see what is contained in a contract before we part with our deposits? Why do they think we should not have this translated as part of the exorbitant fees they take upfront? why do the solicitors not point out the salient features which affect us and the outcome of our purchase and why do they not insist on making it an airtight contract protecting the buyer as much as the developer?

Author:	Tania [ Mon Oct 17, 2005 9:31 pm ]
Post subject:	with hindsight..........
if I had known a site like this existed over two years ago I would have had second thoughts about putting a deposit down on an off-plan development in Spain. I certainly would have done my research on lawyers too as they don't seem to be trustworthy. The market of developers/solicitors/agents appears to be awash with crooks!!!! Why do the solicitors not think we are entitled to see what is contained in a contract before we part with our deposits? Why do they think we should not have this translated as part of the exorbitant fees they take upfront? why do the solicitors not point out the salient features which affect us and the outcome of our purchase and why do they not insist on making it an airtight contract protecting the buyer as much as the developer?

Author:	Jon [ Mon Oct 17, 2005 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:
Tania I agree with you entirely!

Author:	Claire [ Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:54 pm ]
Post subject:
Tania...it's because apparently, we should not expect the Spanish legal system to be of the same standard as in the UK. Also , we apparently, leave our brain at the airport !!

Author:	Drakan [ Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: with hindsight..........
Tania wrote: if I had known a site like this existed over two years ago I would have had second thoughts about putting a deposit down on an off-plan development in Spain. I certainly would have done my research on lawyers too as they don't seem to be trustworthy. The market of developers/solicitors/agents appears to be awash with crooks!!!! Why do the solicitors not think we are entitled to see what is contained in a contract before we part with our deposits? Why do they think we should not have this translated as part of the exorbitant fees they take upfront? why do the solicitors not point out the salient features which affect us and the outcome of our purchase and why do they not insist on making it an airtight contract protecting the buyer as much as the developer? Excuse me ? You ARE entitled to seeing what is contained in the contract before signing it and having it translated in English, we do it everyday for our clients. Lawyers fees are not paid upfront. You pay 50% upon the signing of the private contract and 50% upon completion. That's the unwritten general norm. A lawyer's duty is to defend his client, not the developer. It is clear you've hired lawyers with vested interests. A lawyer normally charges 1% of the purchase price of the real estate and a minimum of 800-1000 Euros. If you resell that property you have to pay again for his fees because it is an entirely different "negocio jurídico" and that's according to law. Notwithstanding, you may agree for the lawyer to charge you less upon the sale of the property (say 0'8-0'9%) albeit he's not forced to do so. If you are paying a lawyer more than 1% you are overpaying. Those 4-5 law firms makeup for 40 lawyers in total in the province of Málaga. They amount to 1% of the legal profession. That 1% gives us 99% a tainted reputation. We are 4.000 lawyers registered in Málaga province.

Author:	Claire [ Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:49 am ]
Post subject:
OK Drakan, perhaps you can explain this to me then. Developers of the Green Hills , Santa Maria Golf) We are in the process of trying to recover our deposit of 118,00+euros from the Grupo Eralia company. We paid this amount 2 years ago this October. The Apartment will never be built due to the revoking of the planning license by Marbella Town Hall. The lawyers that we used, Direct Lawyers Marbella, failed to get us a Bank Guarantee, only they did not tell us this until March of this year! Only when we demanded to see the said document did one appear dated 17th March 2005. !!! Apparently, we cannot exercise this until October 2006. Anyway, that's another ongoing story. After our visit to Spain in June, we appointed a new lawyer ,who was highly recommended to us. She wrote to Direct Lawyers( we have given her power of attorney) asking for all our paperwork and return of the monies outstanding in our account, which we paid to them in advance. A sum of 7412.83 Euros. We agree there have been some disbursements . Please remember , at this point, that not so much as a shovel full of earth has or ever will be moved !! This is the amount of money that is available to be returned to us.....0 Euros!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They told our new lawyer that they had paid out all the fees, taxes etc that would normally be paid out by completion!!!!!!!! This is the breakdown: Legal fees. Purchase..................6438.43 E ????????????? Legal fees .Direct debits..............348.00 E Legal fees. 2 wills......................556.80 E Legal fees. Bank account...............69 E Total fees................................7412.83 Balance outstanding........................0 Euros !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We also had 300 Euros in a bank account: 25/05/05... 144.68 E payment. Wills 24/06/05...20.82 E payment. Burofax. In client account 134.50 E We find this UNBELIEVABLE !! As do our Lawyers. The total purchase price of the apartment we were supposed to have built was 395,926.75 euros. Also, how ethical is it for a lawyer to be "in bed" with the developer and/or the agents? How , in that case can they be 100% working for us, the clients, best interest. Also in our case, we have recently discovered that the licence was revoked in October 2003. Our contract was signed 31st October 2003. This would not have have been a snap decision, or is that another thing possible in the Spanish bureaucracy

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Author:	Paul [ Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:10 am ]
Post subject:	subject
Tania, Jon and Claire. Be wary of an English translation of these contracts! Apart from having to pay for it (extra cost) even from your lawyer, you will find that in the event of a dispute the English translation means nothing, they then revert to the Spanish one. So it's easy to see how specifications etc can be mis-translated and to suit the developer not the client. Yes there must be good Spanish lawyers, the big gripe in Spain is the incestuous triangle of the Estate Agent, his 'recommended' lawyer, and the developer, probable 'backhanders' along the way. Once the client is 'within' that triangle he can't get out without great difficulty.

Author:	Bert Preast [ Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:32 am ]
Post subject:
A translation should be notarised and attached to a copy of the original language document. "Generic" translations may or may not be accurate - if they're not you've no legal comeback.

Author:	Claire [ Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:37 am ]
Post subject:
Hi Paul, We have just received, on Sunday, a translation of our contract. It was done by my brother in law (English) and niece(Argentinian) It was done verbatim. Nothing untoward in it. We were told upfront by our lawyers that a letter we need to write has to be in Spanish and that would be an extra cost to have it translated from our English version. Again, my brother in law will translate it for us. he has only just got his own PC and so that is why he has been unable to help us until now. He is a teacher to business language students.

Author:	Paul [ Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:38 am ]
Post subject:	subject
Good point Bert, it goes to show what a 'minefield' it is there when dealing with the likes of Awful and their lawyers.

Author:	Drakan [ Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:43 am ]
Post subject:
Paul, you're absolutely correct. The spanish wording is the one that matters ALWAYS because we're in Spain. The translation (which should be done at the client's request at NO EXTRA COST) is solely for translation purposes and should there be any discrepancy the Spanish wording ALWAYS overrules the English wording as it is most blatantly logical. This is in our Civil Code. Indeed, If you want an exact translation you have to take it to a "Traductor Jurado" and have it stamped by him. Obviously you'll have to pay the extra-which is alot- and it doesn't come included in the lawyers fees, obviously. The translations I do for my clients I have to normally do them in my spare time and i'm paid no extra for them. I only do them If they specifically request it. There is no need to have it notarised Bert (EDITED), as you write, because the Notary's job is not to read English documents albeit Spanish ones. A Traductor Jurado is a chartered translator and once he translates and places his seal on it it is legally an exact translation regardless of any Public Notary's stamp/seal.

Author:	Paul [ Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:54 am ]
Post subject:	subject
Thanks for the useful info Drakan, it wasn't me who suggested the Notary but Bert. Useful contact Claire with your brother-in-law but check Drakan's advice too which looks good.

Author:	Paul [ Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:55 am ]
Post subject:	subject
Hope Drakan will give you a reply Claire.

Author:	Claire [ Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:57 am ]
Post subject:
Will do Paul. I'm still waiting to see if Draken will respond to my post about the outrageous tactics of the lawyers in Marbella !!

Author:	Drakan [ Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:01 am ]
Post subject:
DrakAn Claire, please. Hi Claire, I'll do my best to address your numerous queries. First of all: 1.- Purchase fees comes to 1% of real estate.= 3.959,27 Euros or GBP 2.639,5. If they've charged you more you ought to take the case to the Colegio de Abogados de Málaga and they'll lower it. I take for granted you agreed with them their legal fees were the market's standard 1% (Anderson lawyers charge 1.6% which is 60% above the market price for example; you can easily check it in their website; outrageous !). If you agreed upon 1.6% (= 6.438,43/395.926,75) it's your own fault and you've overpaid their service (diservice). Perhaps you can still take the case to the ICAM regardeless of this. But your legal position to dispute it will be weak at best because you already signed a binding agreement to pay 1.6% to them, If it is at all your case, that is. 2.-Direct debits. Way too high. Normal is 240 euros plus 16% VAT =278 Euros. 3.- Wills, way too high. Lawyers standard fees for drafting a single Will amounts to 120 Euros besides Notarys fees. That adds up to 240 Euros in your case. Normally a discount is applicable If a client orders two Wills simultaneously (wife and husband for example), so the normal would be 220 euros instead of 240 E charged as lawyers fees for this plus 16% VAT. 4. Bank account. What is this fee ??? Lawyers cannot charge you for setting-up a bank account, it's free. It's the bank that charges you a fee for that. I'm apalled. A lawyer NEVER EVER pays this before completion, it is outright logical not do so and can easily be contested by Málaga's ICA (Málagas Bar Council). You'd win for sure AND .... it's free for you. Legally you need a Licencia de Primera Ocupación (Licence of First Dwelling) to apply for water, electricity, gas, telecommunications etc... How on earth can you pay for this If they don't even have the Licencia de Obra yet granted by the Town Hall ? It is blatantly ilegal and you have been umm... to put it mildly... been"misled" by your own lawyers. You need the Licencia de Obra. Then with it you build the development. After it has been finished you ask (=they the developer) for the Licencia de Primera Ocupación which due to the massive workload in the costa's townhalls can take up to a year or so. Only when the developer has this Licence of First Dwelling you can apply for electricity, water etc... They cannot charge you for this it is IMPOSSIBLE prior to the grantment by the Town Hall of said Licencia de Primera Ocupación. If you apply for it before you will be turned down by the supplying companies as enacted by Andalucías law for Consumer Protection. Btw, this law considers home purchasers (i.e. brits) to be legally consumers and can be awarded damages. Articles 9.6, 71.2.14ª are all applicable to your case Claire. Furthermore, Ley de Ordenación de la Edificación de Andalucía: http://noticias.juridicas.com/base_dato ... -2002.html ART 55.1. E) "No podrá concederse licencia municipal de primera ocupación hasta que no estén finalizadas las obras de urbanización" On a sidenote my clients bought with A---s in a promotion. we've had to wait for almost 4 years and a half. This dodgy developer failed to obtain the Licencia de Obra (Building Licence). In the contractual stipulations we had agreed that If after 12 months from the signing of the contract they failed to obtain it my clients were legally entitled to pull-out. Lo and behold, almost five years later the same shrubs are on place in the "promotion" or development and nothing has been done. It has taken me six months to recover their monies plus 6% delay interest as ruled by article 3 of Law 57/68. A long hard fight. My clients were entitled to the full refund of monies paid up-to- date plus 6% legal delay interest. But they finally have their funds back. Phew ! Clients and most of all lawyers MUST always ask (demand is a more suitable word) for bank guarantess or insurance policy of the down payments of clients done before completion under article 1 of Law 57/68. It is their (=lawyers) job and that's why you pay us. There is just no excuse to fail to do this. No excuse whatsoever, and can be taken and confronted before Málagas Bar Council (=ICAM) and revoke their professional lawyer's licence in the worst case or more likely, be imposed a hefty fee by the ICAM for professional malpractice. You'd win for sure Claire, and it0's free as I've highlighted already. In fact article 71.4.12ª of Andalucías Consumers Law clearly states the sanction for failing to provide the consumer (=yourself as purchaser of a home) with the LEGALLY bank guarantees of your down payments beofre completion, quoting: http://www.todalaley.com/mostrarLey1300p17tn.htm "71.4 .....12.a No formalizar los seguros, avales u otras garantías similares impuestas legalmente en beneficio de los consumidores." In ICAM we have a professional indemnity fund for malpractice amounting to Euros 300K. If anyone in this forum have any further Spanish legal queries I'll do my best to reply to them, bona fides, in my spare time (hopefully I won't get laid-off for wasting the Lawfirm's time and resources !), some times I might take a few days, albeit normally I'll answer the same day they are posted.

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Author:	Drakan [ Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: subject
Paul wrote: Thanks for the useful info Drakan, it wasn't me who suggested the Notary but Bert. Useful contact Claire with your brother-in-law but check Drakan's advice too which looks good. I apologise Paul, I misread.