Why the housing market cannot recover

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This topic contains 32 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 5 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #56390
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    The economic problems Europe is currently facing have a direct impact on the performance of housing markets both in Spain and the rest of Europe.
    However in Spain it’s much worse because of the unique dependence on foreign buyers, the almost total collapse of Spain’s construction industry and the massive bad debts banks are holding.
    Under a relatively normal scenario the housing market could recover as the rest of the economy turns. However this current situation is far from normal.
    The housing market is dependant on a sound financial lending structure both for developers and buyers. In Europe and especially in Spain the banks are strapped and are struggling to even get near the new capital regulatory requirements. Curbing of loans to the housing market will make it even more difficult if not impossible for the sector to recover.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-18/banks-in-europe-vow-1-trillion-shrinkage-amid-threats-of-recapitalization.html

    Direct and decisive action by EU governments to re capitalize banks may be crucial. The trouble is they cannot agree on anything meaningful.

  • #105984
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    Direct and decisive action by EU governments to re capitalize banks may be crucial. The trouble is they cannot agree on anything meaningful.

    The trouble is they cannot afford it. The problem with the banks is bigger than the income of the entire world.

    You know its bad when people are cutting down on food, unlike all previous post war recessions

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8835345/Food-budgets-bear-brunt-of-unprecedented-fall-in-spending.html

  • #106184
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    Direct and decisive action by EU governments to re capitalize banks may be crucial. The trouble is they cannot agree on anything meaningful.

    The trouble is they cannot afford it. The problem with the banks is bigger than the income of the entire world.

    You know its bad when people are cutting down on food, unlike all previous post war recessions

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8835345/Food-budgets-bear-brunt-of-unprecedented-fall-in-spending.html

  • #105985
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Direct and decisive action by EU governments to re capitalize banks may be crucial…..

    I’m not sure that this would resolve anything….( I’m no expert….so it’s just MHO ). When the Bank Of England introduced the Quantitative Easing the influx of cash didn’t filter its way to consumers in the form of loans, mortgages etc….it basically helped prop up the Bank’s balance sheet. Why would Spanish lenders act differently..? The European Governments may be reluctant to plough billions into a bottomless pit….never to see the light of day again..?

    Perhaps nature should take its course…..and let the weak die off…or be consumed by the strong………this would leave a leaner structure, and hopefully a more focussed financial sector.

  • #106185
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Direct and decisive action by EU governments to re capitalize banks may be crucial…..

    I’m not sure that this would resolve anything….( I’m no expert….so it’s just MHO ). When the Bank Of England introduced the Quantitative Easing the influx of cash didn’t filter its way to consumers in the form of loans, mortgages etc….it basically helped prop up the Bank’s balance sheet. Why would Spanish lenders act differently..? The European Governments may be reluctant to plough billions into a bottomless pit….never to see the light of day again..?

    Perhaps nature should take its course…..and let the weak die off…or be consumed by the strong………this would leave a leaner structure, and hopefully a more focussed financial sector.

  • #105986
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Germans are the main culprits in creating the current situation in Europe. They held the interest rates low to accommodate their recovery between 2001 and 2007. This created the bubbles in Spain, Greece, etc.

    They should pay for the mess created. Or get out of the Euro.

  • #106186
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Germans are the main culprits in creating the current situation in Europe. They held the interest rates low to accommodate their recovery between 2001 and 2007. This created the bubbles in Spain, Greece, etc.

    They should pay for the mess created. Or get out of the Euro.

  • #105988
    Profile photo of kgpoc
    kgpoc
    Participant

    No one country in the EU is responsible for the effects in the others.. Especially not Germany (the US, Japan, the UK all had comparable, if not lower rates). Each of the governments are responsible for their problems. Anyone remember Solbes, he warned PSOE that what they were doing would bankrupt the country and leave it a lame duck, but no one would heed his words.. Italy had Prodi, he was voted out because he wanted cuts and savings when the EU was just starting to explode. I bet every country had their Solbes or Prodi and it was the voters who were not interested in listening to them.

    Europe and western world has one massive problem (they confuse Responsibility with Rights).. Everyone looks to the right and left and sees their friends or fellow works living ‘better’ than them, and so they do not think they need to sacrifice (or take responsibility), it is the other person who needs to start sacrificing before they will accept it..

    They are happy to clam/demand rights but want no responsibility.

  • #106188
    Profile photo of kgpoc
    kgpoc
    Participant

    No one country in the EU is responsible for the effects in the others.. Especially not Germany (the US, Japan, the UK all had comparable, if not lower rates). Each of the governments are responsible for their problems. Anyone remember Solbes, he warned PSOE that what they were doing would bankrupt the country and leave it a lame duck, but no one would heed his words.. Italy had Prodi, he was voted out because he wanted cuts and savings when the EU was just starting to explode. I bet every country had their Solbes or Prodi and it was the voters who were not interested in listening to them.

    Europe and western world has one massive problem (they confuse Responsibility with Rights).. Everyone looks to the right and left and sees their friends or fellow works living ‘better’ than them, and so they do not think they need to sacrifice (or take responsibility), it is the other person who needs to start sacrificing before they will accept it..

    They are happy to clam/demand rights but want no responsibility.

  • #105995
    Profile photo of marios
    marios
    Participant

    @kgpoc wrote:

    No one country in the EU is responsible for the effects in the others.. Especially not Germany (the US, Japan, the UK all had comparable, if not lower rates). Each of the governments are responsible for their problems. Anyone remember Solbes, he warned PSOE that what they were doing would bankrupt the country and leave it a lame duck, but no one would heed his words.. Italy had Prodi, he was voted out because he wanted cuts and savings when the EU was just starting to explode. I bet every country had their Solbes or Prodi and it was the voters who were not interested in listening to them.

    Europe and western world has one massive problem (they confuse Responsibility with Rights).. Everyone looks to the right and left and sees their friends or fellow works living ‘better’ than them, and so they do not think they need to sacrifice (or take responsibility), it is the other person who needs to start sacrificing before they will accept it..

    They are happy to clam/demand rights but want no responsibility.

    Well said

  • #106195
    Profile photo of marios
    marios
    Participant

    @kgpoc wrote:

    No one country in the EU is responsible for the effects in the others.. Especially not Germany (the US, Japan, the UK all had comparable, if not lower rates). Each of the governments are responsible for their problems. Anyone remember Solbes, he warned PSOE that what they were doing would bankrupt the country and leave it a lame duck, but no one would heed his words.. Italy had Prodi, he was voted out because he wanted cuts and savings when the EU was just starting to explode. I bet every country had their Solbes or Prodi and it was the voters who were not interested in listening to them.

    Europe and western world has one massive problem (they confuse Responsibility with Rights).. Everyone looks to the right and left and sees their friends or fellow works living ‘better’ than them, and so they do not think they need to sacrifice (or take responsibility), it is the other person who needs to start sacrificing before they will accept it..

    They are happy to clam/demand rights but want no responsibility.

    Well said

  • #105996
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @kgpoc wrote:

    No one country in the EU is responsible for the effects in the others.. Especially not Germany (the US, Japan, the UK all had comparable, if not lower rates). Each of the governments are responsible for their problems. Anyone remember Solbes, he warned PSOE that what they were doing would bankrupt the country and leave it a lame duck, but no one would heed his words.. Italy had Prodi, he was voted out because he wanted cuts and savings when the EU was just starting to explode. I bet every country had their Solbes or Prodi and it was the voters who were not interested in listening to them.

    Europe and western world has one massive problem (they confuse Responsibility with Rights).. Everyone looks to the right and left and sees their friends or fellow works living ‘better’ than them, and so they do not think they need to sacrifice (or take responsibility), it is the other person who needs to start sacrificing before they will accept it..

    They are happy to clam/demand rights but want no responsibility.

    Oh yeah, Germany is responsible and should pay.

    Germany exports have grown from 24% of GDP in 1995 to 46% in 2010 while those of France, Italy and Spain have stayed level at 26%.
    The DM was very strong as compared to the Peseta and Italian Lira. After 2002, the German exports became much more attractive as the Euro was weaker than the DM. On the other hand , the Italioan and Spanish exports became much less attractive.

    At some point in 2002-2005 Germany was relatively weak and needed a low interest rate, but at that time a low interest rate was catastrophic for Ireland or Spain and led to housing booms. Germans did not care about Ireland or Spain or Greece, they cared about their own.
    Humans being greedy by nature, if was natural that the Spanish and Irish took advantage of the low interest rates and over-indulge, there is no doubt about it.

    But one should go the original sin, not to the consequences. And the original sin was a German one not a Spanish one.

  • #106196
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @kgpoc wrote:

    No one country in the EU is responsible for the effects in the others.. Especially not Germany (the US, Japan, the UK all had comparable, if not lower rates). Each of the governments are responsible for their problems. Anyone remember Solbes, he warned PSOE that what they were doing would bankrupt the country and leave it a lame duck, but no one would heed his words.. Italy had Prodi, he was voted out because he wanted cuts and savings when the EU was just starting to explode. I bet every country had their Solbes or Prodi and it was the voters who were not interested in listening to them.

    Europe and western world has one massive problem (they confuse Responsibility with Rights).. Everyone looks to the right and left and sees their friends or fellow works living ‘better’ than them, and so they do not think they need to sacrifice (or take responsibility), it is the other person who needs to start sacrificing before they will accept it..

    They are happy to clam/demand rights but want no responsibility.

    Oh yeah, Germany is responsible and should pay.

    Germany exports have grown from 24% of GDP in 1995 to 46% in 2010 while those of France, Italy and Spain have stayed level at 26%.
    The DM was very strong as compared to the Peseta and Italian Lira. After 2002, the German exports became much more attractive as the Euro was weaker than the DM. On the other hand , the Italioan and Spanish exports became much less attractive.

    At some point in 2002-2005 Germany was relatively weak and needed a low interest rate, but at that time a low interest rate was catastrophic for Ireland or Spain and led to housing booms. Germans did not care about Ireland or Spain or Greece, they cared about their own.
    Humans being greedy by nature, if was natural that the Spanish and Irish took advantage of the low interest rates and over-indulge, there is no doubt about it.

    But one should go the original sin, not to the consequences. And the original sin was a German one not a Spanish one.

  • #105998
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @flosmichael wrote:

    @kgpoc wrote:
    No one country in the EU is responsible for the effects in the others.. Especially not Germany (the US, Japan, the UK all had comparable, if not lower rates). Each of the governments are responsible for their problems. Anyone remember Solbes, he warned PSOE that what they were doing would bankrupt the country and leave it a lame duck, but no one would heed his words.. Italy had Prodi, he was voted out because he wanted cuts and savings when the EU was just starting to explode. I bet every country had their Solbes or Prodi and it was the voters who were not interested in listening to them.

    Europe and western world has one massive problem (they confuse Responsibility with Rights).. Everyone looks to the right and left and sees their friends or fellow works living ‘better’ than them, and so they do not think they need to sacrifice (or take responsibility), it is the other person who needs to start sacrificing before they will accept it..

    They are happy to clam/demand rights but want no responsibility.

    Oh yeah, Germany is responsible and should pay.

    Germany exports have grown from 24% of GDP in 1995 to 46% in 2010 while those of France, Italy and Spain have stayed level at 26%.
    The DM was very strong as compared to the Peseta and Italian Lira. After 2002, the German exports became much more attractive as the Euro was weaker than the DM. On the other hand , the Italioan and Spanish exports became much less attractive.

    At some point in 2002-2005 Germany was relatively weak and needed a low interest rate, but at that time a low interest rate was catastrophic for Ireland or Spain and led to housing booms. Germans did not care about Ireland or Spain or Greece, they cared about their own.
    Humans being greedy by nature, if was natural that the Spanish and Irish took advantage of the low interest rates and over-indulge, there is no doubt about it.

    But one should go the original sin, not to the consequences. And the original sin was a German one not a Spanish one.

    Yes and I think one or two German banks also took advantage of the situation in 2002-2005 to sell easy credit to the Greeks and the Spanish so they could buy their BMWs and pull Germany out of recession. It would be helpful if Germany would now start importing Spanish and Greek goods to return the favour, but instead Germany is imposing austerity measures on her people and tightening money.

    However, irrespective of whether Germany has purposely behaved in this way or not, the fact that it has the biggest economy in the eurozone means it influences the metrics of the eurozone economy more than any other country, which means actions taken by the ECB will always be biased towards Germany. The whole system is intrinsically screwed. Any countries with economies not in cycle with that of Germany were doomed from the start.

  • #106198
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @flosmichael wrote:

    @kgpoc wrote:
    No one country in the EU is responsible for the effects in the others.. Especially not Germany (the US, Japan, the UK all had comparable, if not lower rates). Each of the governments are responsible for their problems. Anyone remember Solbes, he warned PSOE that what they were doing would bankrupt the country and leave it a lame duck, but no one would heed his words.. Italy had Prodi, he was voted out because he wanted cuts and savings when the EU was just starting to explode. I bet every country had their Solbes or Prodi and it was the voters who were not interested in listening to them.

    Europe and western world has one massive problem (they confuse Responsibility with Rights).. Everyone looks to the right and left and sees their friends or fellow works living ‘better’ than them, and so they do not think they need to sacrifice (or take responsibility), it is the other person who needs to start sacrificing before they will accept it..

    They are happy to clam/demand rights but want no responsibility.

    Oh yeah, Germany is responsible and should pay.

    Germany exports have grown from 24% of GDP in 1995 to 46% in 2010 while those of France, Italy and Spain have stayed level at 26%.
    The DM was very strong as compared to the Peseta and Italian Lira. After 2002, the German exports became much more attractive as the Euro was weaker than the DM. On the other hand , the Italioan and Spanish exports became much less attractive.

    At some point in 2002-2005 Germany was relatively weak and needed a low interest rate, but at that time a low interest rate was catastrophic for Ireland or Spain and led to housing booms. Germans did not care about Ireland or Spain or Greece, they cared about their own.
    Humans being greedy by nature, if was natural that the Spanish and Irish took advantage of the low interest rates and over-indulge, there is no doubt about it.

    But one should go the original sin, not to the consequences. And the original sin was a German one not a Spanish one.

    Yes and I think one or two German banks also took advantage of the situation in 2002-2005 to sell easy credit to the Greeks and the Spanish so they could buy their BMWs and pull Germany out of recession. It would be helpful if Germany would now start importing Spanish and Greek goods to return the favour, but instead Germany is imposing austerity measures on her people and tightening money.

    However, irrespective of whether Germany has purposely behaved in this way or not, the fact that it has the biggest economy in the eurozone means it influences the metrics of the eurozone economy more than any other country, which means actions taken by the ECB will always be biased towards Germany. The whole system is intrinsically screwed. Any countries with economies not in cycle with that of Germany were doomed from the start.

  • #106001
    Profile photo of kgpoc
    kgpoc
    Participant

    I am baffled by your line of reasoning, it is a good sound bite! You are arguing that El Corte Ingles who offers you cheap financing to buy a TV, should be held responsible because you cannot pay..?

    All fault goes back to one point in time and one country, 2002-2005 and Germany, how simple! That must be the smartest government I have ever heard of. Oh, that’s right, they were thrown out of power because Germany was not growing as fast as the EU GDP Average growth. Since we are choosing definitive points in time, Spain had a point in time too when all this ‘poison’ from Germany could have stopped and the economy was growing rapidly, spectacularly. They could have been responsible in 2004/5, but decided against it.

    Germany was the largest economy going into the EU and is still the largest, they are ‘part’ of the problem and because they did not binge, are a larger ‘part’ of the solution.

  • #106201
    Profile photo of kgpoc
    kgpoc
    Participant

    I am baffled by your line of reasoning, it is a good sound bite! You are arguing that El Corte Ingles who offers you cheap financing to buy a TV, should be held responsible because you cannot pay..?

    All fault goes back to one point in time and one country, 2002-2005 and Germany, how simple! That must be the smartest government I have ever heard of. Oh, that’s right, they were thrown out of power because Germany was not growing as fast as the EU GDP Average growth. Since we are choosing definitive points in time, Spain had a point in time too when all this ‘poison’ from Germany could have stopped and the economy was growing rapidly, spectacularly. They could have been responsible in 2004/5, but decided against it.

    Germany was the largest economy going into the EU and is still the largest, they are ‘part’ of the problem and because they did not binge, are a larger ‘part’ of the solution.

  • #106002
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @kgpoc wrote:

    I am baffled by your line of reasoning, it is a good sound bite! You are arguing that El Corte Ingles who offers you cheap financing to buy a TV, should be held responsible because you cannot pay..?
    .

    No, I am arguing against the people who allowed El Corte Ingles to be able to offer cheap financing to buy a TV. El Corte Ingles was able to
    offer cheap financing because EU offered the banks a low rate which then offered El Corte Ingles cheap money which was then able to offer me cheap money. And EU was able to offer cheap money because Germany wanted to have access toi cheap money to produce and sell the BMWs and AUDIs.

  • #106202
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @kgpoc wrote:

    I am baffled by your line of reasoning, it is a good sound bite! You are arguing that El Corte Ingles who offers you cheap financing to buy a TV, should be held responsible because you cannot pay..?
    .

    No, I am arguing against the people who allowed El Corte Ingles to be able to offer cheap financing to buy a TV. El Corte Ingles was able to
    offer cheap financing because EU offered the banks a low rate which then offered El Corte Ingles cheap money which was then able to offer me cheap money. And EU was able to offer cheap money because Germany wanted to have access toi cheap money to produce and sell the BMWs and AUDIs.

  • #106003
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “It would be helpful if Germany would now start importing Spanish and Greek goods “

    What goods fetta cheese, plastic flamenco dolls & bulls made in China. !!!!!!!!!!!

  • #106203
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “It would be helpful if Germany would now start importing Spanish and Greek goods “

    What goods fetta cheese, plastic flamenco dolls & bulls made in China. !!!!!!!!!!!

  • #99526
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    No single country is to blame for another ones mess. Spain didn’t have to foster a property boom but it did. To blame that on Germany, whatever the other macroeconomic factors, is quite frankly ridiculous.

    The bottom line here is that it is up to the stewards of a country’s economy (mainly the politicians) to manage it well. The simple truth with Spain, something also being seen across Europe, is that they often didn’t. That then begs the question, do you blame the politicians or those who believed in and voted for them?

  • #106005
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @brianc_li wrote:

    No single country is to blame for another ones mess. Spain didn’t have to foster a property boom but it did. To blame that on Germany, whatever the other macroeconomic factors, is quite frankly ridiculous.

    The bottom line here is that it is up to the stewards of a country’s economy (mainly the politicians) to manage it well. The simple truth with Spain, something also being seen across Europe, is that they often didn’t. That then begs the question, do you blame the politicians or those who believed in and voted for them?

    Not ridiculous at all.

    The Spain and Greece boom was fostered with easy money. It is not Spanish people fault that they wanted to get rich overnight, who would not want to sell one easy wealth which is Sun+beaches+cheap flights?

    Spain, Greece and Portugal are victims, the Germans are the main culprits.

    Spain, Greece and Portugal pay dearly for the few years of good times they had in the last decade.

    The Germans now show the usual inflexibility and refuse to help Europe when their help is needed. It was obvious from the beggining that the
    prudent way of the North does not match the way of the South. But Germans wanted to export their stuff cheaper within Europe and thought that everybody will follow. Now it it is the moment of truth and the Germans need to pay for the past and possible future gains.

    Ich denke das es ist klar.

  • #106205
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @brianc_li wrote:

    No single country is to blame for another ones mess. Spain didn’t have to foster a property boom but it did. To blame that on Germany, whatever the other macroeconomic factors, is quite frankly ridiculous.

    The bottom line here is that it is up to the stewards of a country’s economy (mainly the politicians) to manage it well. The simple truth with Spain, something also being seen across Europe, is that they often didn’t. That then begs the question, do you blame the politicians or those who believed in and voted for them?

    Not ridiculous at all.

    The Spain and Greece boom was fostered with easy money. It is not Spanish people fault that they wanted to get rich overnight, who would not want to sell one easy wealth which is Sun+beaches+cheap flights?

    Spain, Greece and Portugal are victims, the Germans are the main culprits.

    Spain, Greece and Portugal pay dearly for the few years of good times they had in the last decade.

    The Germans now show the usual inflexibility and refuse to help Europe when their help is needed. It was obvious from the beggining that the
    prudent way of the North does not match the way of the South. But Germans wanted to export their stuff cheaper within Europe and thought that everybody will follow. Now it it is the moment of truth and the Germans need to pay for the past and possible future gains.

    Ich denke das es ist klar.

  • #106006
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @flosmichael wrote:

    @brianc_li wrote:
    No single country is to blame for another ones mess. Spain didn’t have to foster a property boom but it did. To blame that on Germany, whatever the other macroeconomic factors, is quite frankly ridiculous.

    The bottom line here is that it is up to the stewards of a country’s economy (mainly the politicians) to manage it well. The simple truth with Spain, something also being seen across Europe, is that they often didn’t. That then begs the question, do you blame the politicians or those who believed in and voted for them?

    Not ridiculous at all.

    The Spain and Greece boom was fostered with easy money. It is not Spanish people fault that they wanted to get rich overnight, who would not want to sell one easy wealth which is Sun+beaches+cheap flights?

    Spain, Greece and Portugal are victims, the Germans are the main culprits.

    Spain, Greece and Portugal pay dearly for the few years of good times they had in the last decade.

    The Germans now show the usual inflexibility and refuse to help Europe when their help is needed. It was obvious from the beggining that the
    prudent way of the North does not match the way of the South. But Germans wanted to export their stuff cheaper within Europe and thought that everybody will follow. Now it it is the moment of truth and the Germans need to pay for the past and possible future gains.

    Ich denke das es ist klar.

    I guess Germany could argue that they are helping the Spanish out by providing work for them – provided they are “good Europeans” and prepared to move to Germany. After all that’s what the eurozone project is all about, and what Spain signed up to.

  • #106206
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @flosmichael wrote:

    @brianc_li wrote:
    No single country is to blame for another ones mess. Spain didn’t have to foster a property boom but it did. To blame that on Germany, whatever the other macroeconomic factors, is quite frankly ridiculous.

    The bottom line here is that it is up to the stewards of a country’s economy (mainly the politicians) to manage it well. The simple truth with Spain, something also being seen across Europe, is that they often didn’t. That then begs the question, do you blame the politicians or those who believed in and voted for them?

    Not ridiculous at all.

    The Spain and Greece boom was fostered with easy money. It is not Spanish people fault that they wanted to get rich overnight, who would not want to sell one easy wealth which is Sun+beaches+cheap flights?

    Spain, Greece and Portugal are victims, the Germans are the main culprits.

    Spain, Greece and Portugal pay dearly for the few years of good times they had in the last decade.

    The Germans now show the usual inflexibility and refuse to help Europe when their help is needed. It was obvious from the beggining that the
    prudent way of the North does not match the way of the South. But Germans wanted to export their stuff cheaper within Europe and thought that everybody will follow. Now it it is the moment of truth and the Germans need to pay for the past and possible future gains.

    Ich denke das es ist klar.

    I guess Germany could argue that they are helping the Spanish out by providing work for them – provided they are “good Europeans” and prepared to move to Germany. After all that’s what the eurozone project is all about, and what Spain signed up to.

  • #106228
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @chopera wrote:

    @flosmichael wrote:
    @brianc_li wrote:
    No single country is to blame for another ones mess. Spain didn’t have to foster a property boom but it did. To blame that on Germany, whatever the other macroeconomic factors, is quite frankly ridiculous.

    The bottom line here is that it is up to the stewards of a country’s economy (mainly the politicians) to manage it well. The simple truth with Spain, something also being seen across Europe, is that they often didn’t. That then begs the question, do you blame the politicians or those who believed in and voted for them?

    Not ridiculous at all.

    The Spain and Greece boom was fostered with easy money. It is not Spanish people fault that they wanted to get rich overnight, who would not want to sell one easy wealth which is Sun+beaches+cheap flights?

    Spain, Greece and Portugal are victims, the Germans are the main culprits.

    Spain, Greece and Portugal pay dearly for the few years of good times they had in the last decade.

    The Germans now show the usual inflexibility and refuse to help Europe when their help is needed. It was obvious from the beggining that the
    prudent way of the North does not match the way of the South. But Germans wanted to export their stuff cheaper within Europe and thought that everybody will follow. Now it it is the moment of truth and the Germans need to pay for the past and possible future gains.

    Ich denke das es ist klar.

    I guess Germany could argue that they are helping the Spanish out by providing work for them – provided they are “good Europeans” and prepared to move to Germany. After all that’s what the eurozone project is all about, and what Spain signed up to.

    If Germans do not want to pay,why would British pay through their IMF contribution???Why would I pay for Germany’s well-being?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8849346/Eurozone-debt-crisis-talks-break-down-as-Angela-Merkel-rejects-rescue-deal.html

  • #106230
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @flosmichael wrote:

    If Germans do not want to pay,why would British pay through their IMF contribution???

    I imagine the Germans have an IMF contribution as well. So does the USA – I wonder how they’d feel about it?

    @flosmichael wrote:

    Why would I pay for Germany’s well-being?

    Or Greece’s for that matter

  • #106233
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

  • #106250
    Profile photo of kgpoc
    kgpoc
    Participant

    Brilliant!

  • #106267
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @shakeel wrote:

    “It would be helpful if Germany would now start importing Spanish and Greek goods “

    What goods fetta cheese, plastic flamenco dolls & bulls made in China. !!!!!!!!!!!

    Holidays?

  • #106268
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @brianc_li wrote:

    Good but a bit out of date – I’d put Italy on the bottom rung (maybe lower than Spain even) and Holland and Finland higher than France. I’d have the UK flapping about on the sides.

  • #106328
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Chopera, In today’s economical world tourism cannot be the only source besides being seasonal activity

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