Why is Spain so corrupt?

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This topic contains 50 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 5 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #56260
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I would like to ask the forum population a question. Why is Spain so corrupt?

    I read an interesting article in the Economist last week which suggested a theory.
    http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2009/03/why_is_spain_so_corrupt

    I have always held the view that corruption in Spain was cultural due to the long held tradition of paternalism.
    Franco encouraged paternalism in every aspect of Spanish life. It was one of his justifications for autocratic rule. The other was preserving the power of the Catholic Church.

    In fact paternalism was an ancient Greek belief. Aristotle advocated the view that since authority and subordination existed in all forms of nature it should also form the basis of a civilised human society.
    You can see evidence of that in any tribal society in the Middle East and Africa.

    Paternalism however in a modern meritocracy is in fact just corruption by another name.

    As Spain has developed post Franco and the population has become better educated paternalism should in theory have declined and become unacceptable behaviour.

    In fact the recent ‘indignados’ demonstrations were not protesting about austerity measures as in Greece but corruption among the ruling political class and lack of hope through decent employment opportunities.
    These demonstrations were effective because they were peaceful and were organised by a younger well educated generation and not orchestrated by trade unions.

    Younger people recognise the extent and level of corruption in Spanish society. They also highlighted some of it’s origins in the Spanish political system.

    The Economist article I have linked suggests the basis of modern corruption in Spain lies not just in culture but in the political structure itself.

    A politically appointed civil service has to be at the top of a list of urgent reforms.

    Of course corruption in Spanish society, particularly in the property business takes a lead from the behaviour of those with some form of political power and authority.

    Effective accountability does not exist and the only form of control is the number of noughts added to a sum of money.

    Improving that accountability with an organisation with tooth and claw must be another priority.
    I would be interested to hear what other measures you think could be adopted with particular regard to the property business.

    A debate in support of the ‘indignados’even on a forum such as this can be an optimistic effort for change. The government and particularly the likely successors are very keen to kick start the property market and could take some notice. Who knows?

    Spain has to change and reform. The consequences of failure and business as usual will create massive civil unrest and further economic decline.

  • #104981
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    🙄 The so called indignados are not a “well educated generation” – they are mostly layabouts, members of communist parties, greenpeace, reactionaries etc etc………..” in fact if you’d bothered to watch Spanish TV ( do you speak Spanish?? ) you’d have noticed most of them with at least five piercings, tatoos everywhere ………………………..you’d also have come across reports of sex abuse in the tents, massive drinking binges etc………….

    as for the corruption?? well, we’re latins 🙂 …. Italy, Portugal, Greece and the whole of South America is the same !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    🙄

  • #104982
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    UBEDA.
    Spanish TV is part of the establishment and shows what it wants you to see. There were thousands of young people demonstrating. Were they all drunks and sexual molesters? They were making a decent attempt to highlight a need for political change. That rubs up some sections of society who have a vested interest in preserving the status quo. That’s the point.
    When did the fact of having body piercing make your argument less valid?
    Being ‘Latin’ is not an excuse for illegality in a modern democratic state.

  • #104983
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    As you say they need reform and a watch dog with teeth,being held accountable will be a big deterant but corruption will always be around as long as human greed goes unpunished.We have seen a start to this reform with people going to prison but its has come a little late and only once it has been brought to light outside spain,
    As for being pieced and having tats having an effect on ones intelligence well that is just rediculous,i have niether but know people who are smoothered in them one is a lawyer and in a shirt and tie you can’t see them but in a pair of shorts he has them every where self expression through body art i believe he calls it 😆

  • #104984
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    Why is Spain so corrupt?

    Because it has an over sized and over complex government system which is too hard to impliment properly, too easy to avoid, and itself corrupt.

    I will give a personal example: when we sold our last flat (last year) the (Spanish) purchaser was happy to declare the full purchase price to Hacienda. Conclusion – there are Spanish people out there prepared to play by the rules.

    We were buying as well and we also declared the full purchase price to Hacienda. However we purchased our flat at a price that was below the valuation Hacienda gave for our flat. This left us with the choice of either declaring the real amount we paid or declaring Hacienda’s higher valuation (and therefore paying more tax). If we declared the real purchase price we would have faced the risk of being fined by Hacienda for paying with black money, because it is inconceivable to Hacienda that anybody could genuinely pay less for a flat than what they value it at (a friend did try it once when he bought a cheap flat in Zamora, and he was indeed fined). So we ended up declaring Hacienda’s price and paying additional “tax” that we shouldn’t have.

    When you combine examples like this with other experiences of trying to deal with the Spanish state (and also with service companies that are linked to the Spanish state) then you realise that by dealing with them you are left vulnerable to being extorted.

    This has nothing to do with corrupt politicians, etc (although they don’t help) or the fact that those employed by the state have their jobs guaranteed at your expense (I fully expect Spanish pensions to be raided any week now in order to keep paying funcionarios). It’s just that most people who live and work in Spain realise that whenever they deal with the Spanish state in an open way the state will see it as an opportunity to take as much money off them as it possible can. So many simply choose not to.

  • #104986
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Whilst, I agree with most of the reasons that is stated for reasons of corruption in Spain & it causes, namely, relegion, feudalism, Dictatorship, economics, lack of education & proper & just accountabilty.

    It will take a few generation for this to clear up as the next generation see’s its elder operating in a corrupt manner and accepts this as norm, besides economic growth & the distribution of wealth has to be evenly spread vertically & horizontaly.

    Property is not the only sector that attracts corruption. It just happened to be the flavour of the decade.

  • #104988
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @UBEDA wrote:

    🙄 The so called indignados are not a “well educated generation” – they are mostly layabouts, members of communist parties, greenpeace, reactionaries etc etc………..” in fact if you’d bothered to watch Spanish TV ( do you speak Spanish?? ) you’d have noticed most of them with at least five piercings, tatoos everywhere ………………………..you’d also have come across reports of sex abuse in the tents, massive drinking binges etc………….

    Absolutely agree with you Ubeda (very rare I know 😉 ) An internet fad initiated from the Arab spring (or nightmare 🙄 ) All the flotsam is there, anarchists, punks, ageing hippies. Normal spanish people are bemused or annoyed by it. The very same sort of people who were behind the student riots in the UK.

    Corruption in Spain is endemic simply because they can get away with it. A lack of accountability that starts at the top. No-one cared much about it when things were booming.

  • #104989
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Please explain to us then Katy how else the young, who are the future and who feel disfranchised and are suffering 43% unemployment can express their frustration at not having a political voice in the society to which they belong?
    The mainstream political parties, PSOE and the PP will not change anything because the status quo suits them too well.
    It’s likely that the PP, who have their roots in the old Flange party will win the next election but not on any ticket for social and economic change.
    In fact depressingly I don’t believe anything will change in Spanish society until it’s forced through by internal pressure of and by the majority of the people through peaceful civil unrest.
    The ‘indignados’ are at least a beginning.
    http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2011/06/13/madrid/1307920036.html
    Not an nose ring or tattoo in sight. 🙂

  • #104990
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @UBEDA wrote:

    🙄 The so called indignados are not a “well educated generation” – they are mostly layabouts, members of communist parties, greenpeace, reactionaries etc etc………..” in fact if you’d bothered to watch Spanish TV ( do you speak Spanish?? ) you’d have noticed most of them with at least five piercings, tatoos everywhere ………………………..you’d also have come across reports of sex abuse in the tents, massive drinking binges etc………….

    as for the corruption?? well, we’re latins 🙂 …. Italy, Portugal, Greece and the whole of South America is the same !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    🙄

    Quite right there are plenty of jobs in Spain and the economy is doing just fine. If only the lazy Spanish youth would stop messing around with these stupid demonstrations and get themselves a decent job – there are hundreds of golden opportunities out there! Anybody complaining must obviously be subverted and needs to be taken to the re-education centre right away 🙄

  • #104991
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @logan wrote:

    Please explain to us then Katy how else the young, who are the future and who feel disfranchised and are suffering 43% unemployment can express their frustration at not having a political voice in the society to which they belong?
    The mainstream political parties, PSOE and the PP will not change anything because the status quo suits them too well.
    It’s likely that the PP, who have their roots in the old Flange party will win the next election but not on any ticket for social and economic change.
    In fact depressingly I don’t believe anything will change in Spanish society until it’s forced through by internal pressure of and by the majority of the people through peaceful civil unrest.
    The ‘indignados’ are at least a beginning.

    `
    That could apply to the UK too. I voted Tory but didn’t get what it said on the tin.

    I understand their frustration re. unemployment but these demos are just an excuse for an extended botellón and are not representative of spanish youth. Even if there were lots of jobs the ones with 5 earrings and a ring through their nose won’t be emplyed!

  • #104993
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    @logan wrote:
    Please explain to us then Katy how else the young, who are the future and who feel disfranchised and are suffering 43% unemployment can express their frustration at not having a political voice in the society to which they belong?
    The mainstream political parties, PSOE and the PP will not change anything because the status quo suits them too well.
    It’s likely that the PP, who have their roots in the old Flange party will win the next election but not on any ticket for social and economic change.
    In fact depressingly I don’t believe anything will change in Spanish society until it’s forced through by internal pressure of and by the majority of the people through peaceful civil unrest.
    The ‘indignados’ are at least a beginning.

    `
    That could apply to the UK too. I voted Tory but didn’t get what it said on the tin.

    I understand their frustration re. unemployment but these demos are just an excuse for an extended botellón and are not representative of spanish youth. Even if there were lots of jobs the ones with 5 earrings and a ring through their nose won’t be emplyed!

    absolute crap katy my daughter has 3 piecings in her face 1 in her nose and (snake bites) two below the bottom lip.I hate them but she is employed by a company that looks after all the police files and records sent to storage so not only employed but in a respected company with government contracts.

  • #104994
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Dartboy you may think it’s crap but I assure you there are many people who feel the same as I do. One swallow does not make a summer. Where is she anyway? filing down in the basement 😉

  • #104996
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    Spain has several issues that are to cause.

    First, the main political parties do not allow dissension in the ranks, this leads to a lack of ‘political discussion’ within the ranks.

    Next the is the ever present functionary. Giving them jobs for life makes the system inefficient as people do not rise or fall based on merit. Little oversight and accountability means that the system can be prone to corruption.

    Now the problem with the ‘younger’ generation is the same as always (in general). They have ideals, but little practicality. They want the system to be more transparent and efficient. But at the same time they want more jobs security and more freebies. What Spain next to do is look at countries like the UK and Denmark in regards to employment and business law/rules.

    I do not think corruption in Spain is cultural. The problem is lack of fear. If you don’t think you will get caught or prosecuted, you have got little motivation to stay on the ‘straight and narrow’ except for their personal convictions.

  • #104998
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Here is an interactive graphic illustrating the current youth unemployment in Europe. Given that in Spain it’s now 44.3% of the working population between the ages of 16 and 24 the true extent of the problem is clear. It’s very serious.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/8564500/Interactive-graphic-Youth-unemployment-in-Europe.html

    Detection and punishment of wrong doing is an effective deterrent to corruption but a personal moral code is far better.
    Historically in Spain the Catholic Church did teach those values but completely lost the plot due to it’s relationship with Franco the far right, paedophile priests and the failure of the church to modernise it’s doctrines. The church is now in serious decline in Spain and for the young and the MTV/Facebook generation there is an absence of positive role models.

  • #104999
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Dartboy you may think it’s crap but I assure you there are many people who feel the same as I do. One swallow does not make a summer. Where is she anyway? filing down in the basement 😉

    its also narrow minded people like you who are scared of people who look different that prevent people like these taking decent jobs.
    my favourite teacher at school was a hippy but i guess that was ok then because it was the 70’s.
    She happens to work in the main office actually as the main contact for all clients requesting files from the storage area.She would probably scare you to death with her strong young views,if she was in charge there wouldn’t be a person on the dole for longer than 6 months that still had sky tv thats for sure,she would give them enough to eat and have a roof over thier heads.

  • #105001
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    A role model for Katy to help her understand her prejudice of young people who seek to be different could be Lisbeth Salander in Stig Larsson’s great 3 novels The Millenium Trilogy and The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. 🙂

  • #105002
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    Here is an interactive graphic illustrating the current youth unemployment in Europe. Given that in Spain it’s now 44.3% of the working population between the ages of 16 and 24 the true extent of the problem is clear. It’s very serious.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/8564500/Interactive-graphic-Youth-unemployment-in-Europe.html

    Detection and punishment of wrong doing is an effective deterrent to corruption but a personal moral code is far better.
    Historically in Spain the Catholic Church did teach those values but completely lost the plot due to it’s relationship with Franco the far right, paedophile priests and the failure of the church to modernise it’s doctrines. The church is now in serious decline in Spain and for the young and the MTV/Facebook generation there is an absence of positive role models.

    While not wanting to belittle the dire situation in Spain, I do wonder if the reason the figures for Spain look so much worse than the rest of Europe is simply because Spain doesn’t manipulate the figures so much. In the UK I suspect many people who would be classified as unemployed in Spain are instead claiming sickness benefit, or they’ve been unemployed for so long that the government refuses to see them as such.

  • #105003
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @chopera wrote:

    While not wanting to belittle the dire situation in Spain, I do wonder if the reason the figures for Spain look so much worse than the rest of Europe is simply because Spain doesn’t manipulate the figures so much. In the UK I suspect many people who would be classified as unemployed in Spain are instead claiming sickness benefit, or they’ve been unemployed for so long that the government refuses to see them as such.

    In the UK the unemployed are hidden

    In Spain the employed are hidden!

  • #105005
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @fuengi wrote:

    @chopera wrote:
    While not wanting to belittle the dire situation in Spain, I do wonder if the reason the figures for Spain look so much worse than the rest of Europe is simply because Spain doesn’t manipulate the figures so much. In the UK I suspect many people who would be classified as unemployed in Spain are instead claiming sickness benefit, or they’ve been unemployed for so long that the government refuses to see them as such.

    In the UK the unemployed are hidden

    In Spain the employed are hidden!

    great post!

  • #105006
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Chopera, Spain doesn’t manipulate the figures, surely you should have put this in the Jokes thread 😆

    According to many Spanish the figures are higher, suppose you are aware that when a person’s unemployment benefit runs out they are discounted. Then there are all those back to work programmes.

  • #105008
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    ON a serious note, though, the unemployment issue in spain is tied to the labour laws, which are overly restrictive. And of course the laws in regards to being self-employed are cumbersome and don’t motivate people to set up companies.

  • #105012
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Chopera, Spain doesn’t manipulate the figures, surely you should have put this in the Jokes thread 😆

    According to many Spanish the figures are higher, suppose you are aware that when a person’s unemployment benefit runs out they are discounted. Then there are all those back to work programmes.

    I suggested Spain doesn’t manipulate the figures so much (which is not the same as saying Spain does not manipulate the figures at all).

    In the UK it is the same – except unemployment benefit runs out much quicker and there are many more back to work programmes, as well as the option of a “career” on sickness benefit, or a “career” producing children, etc. In the UK over 20% over the population is “economically inactive” yet less than half of them count as being unemployed.

  • #105013
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @fuengi wrote:

    ON a serious note, though, the unemployment issue in spain is tied to the labour laws, which are overly restrictive. And of course the laws in regards to being self-employed are cumbersome and don’t motivate people to set up companies.

    I agree, which is part of the need for structural change.

    Zapatereo has promised to do just that, reform the restrictive practices within employment and small business legislation his party created.

    The trouble is he promised that only to encourage the bond markets he was serious about reform.

    The PSOE have no appetite for it in truth.

    Zapertero has announced he’s going before the next election. He does not want to preside over the dismantlement of socialist policies Spain has built up over the last few years.

    These policies have failed of course but that’s not the point. Dogma is everything to a backward looking politician.
    I suggest the election in Spain may well come long before it’s scheduled date in 2012.

    “Events dear boy, events.”

  • #105016
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The sooner they can have the election the better it is for all concern, except the Banks.

  • #105017
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    I read a headline today suggesting a November election. I guess they’ve calculated that other people’s money is due to run out in December.

  • #105018
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    A friend om mine needed to lay off some people in his restaurant because business was bad. The figures he had to pay to let the personel go was riddiculous. I recommended him to just shut down everything but he didn’t want to do it.

    That is why no one wans to employ anyone in Spain.

  • #105019
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Yes, Ardun that is the truth. What they dont realise that it is very difficult to find good, honest, hardworking. reliable staff in any economy.

    Why, would an employer lay them off if he or she does not have to.

  • #105024
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @shakeel wrote:

    Yes, Ardun that is the truth. What they dont realise that it is very difficult to find good, honest, hardworking. reliable staff in any economy.

    Why, would an employer lay them off if he or she does not have to.

    Exactly. I have never run my own business but I have great respect for people that do it. In most of the western world the employed is in a better negotiating position anyhow and the companies that don’t behave doesn’t follow the laws anyway.

    Denmark have quite and ok model when it comes to “protection” of the worker which basicly takes into consideration that the employer and the employed benefits from mutual respect and flexibillity.

    The more protection the employe have the larger unemployment the country will have. Quite easy really.

  • #105025
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @Ardun wrote:

    A friend om mine needed to lay off some people in his restaurant because business was bad. The figures he had to pay to let the personel go was riddiculous. I recommended him to just shut down everything but he didn’t want to do it.

    That is why no one wans to employ anyone in Spain.

    Yup. I know a few ghost workers in Spain: no real job to do but their employer can’t afford to lay them off.

    By law an employer has to give an employee a contrato indefinido after 2 years of employment. Before then they can give them temporary contracts. So often employers will simply not renew employment contracts after two years, regardless of how well the worker has performed. It used to be the case that employers would often bully people out of contratos indefinidos – they’d make the employees life so miserable that they’d simply change job, but these days that’s not an option.

  • #105028
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    In France it’s a very similar situation with employment laws. The way French employers have dealt with the situation is to only employ people on 3 or 6 month contracts. Small business is a nightmare with substantial set up costs going to the government up front before the business has earned a cent.
    It’s a significant fact that the EU countries with the highest unemployment, especially with young people have the most restrictive labour laws, restrictive practices and militant trade unions. Greece is another example
    They also incidentally suffer higher levels of corruption in public life which tends to support the view that big government fails.

  • #105031
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    anyone running a business in Spain will know that most of the unemployed youth are unemployable – some of them think they want a job, but they really don’t want to work !!! Logan, they are not an “educated generation” or even a “lost generation” ……but they are a problem that will not go away ……….. I believe the youth (under 35) unemployment will stay over 35% for years to come!!!!!!!! 😥

  • #105032
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The same applies in Spain to the best of my knowledge. I knew people who would have got more money for being sacked than they would have earned by remaining in the Job.

    Not, allowing for current climate it has never been easy to get a half decent job in Spain. Most people would just turn up for work. They dont want to be there, their employer does not want them there. This made the work atmosphere very unpleasent & affected other workers. Needless to say that the Employer could not get the best out of his staff.

    With the present system they have in Med Europe and I must say France takes the cake. I can only see large organisation will be the ones who can create jobs as they have fat & market good will for their products or reputation. These are large organisations gets all the benefits from the Central or regional Government. What the host nation does not realise or care about is that these organisations are highly mobile & will move to the next Country where the cost’s are low & less regulations.

    The Politician’s or Mayor’s do not care as the few years in the office allows them to line up their pockets & this creates short termism & incubate corruption.

  • #105033
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @UBEDA wrote:

    anyone running a business in Spain will know that most of the unemployed youth are unemployable – some of them think they want a job, but they really don’t want to work !!! Logan, they are not an “educated generation” or even a “lost generation” ……but they are a problem that will not go away ……….. I believe the youth (under 35) unemployment will stay over 35% for years to come!!!!!!!! 😥

    I think that is a gross generalisation. To say that 44% of Spain’s unemployed between the ages of 16 and 24 are uneducated and unemployable is more than silly. Of course the majority of such people want to work. They seek the same decent life style as others and know perfectly well the route to that is through employment and education.

    I have read some stupid and plain ignorant statements on here over the time I’ve been posting but that just about tops the lot. 👿

  • #105035
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @UBEDA”]anyone running a business in Spain will know that most of the unemployed youth are unemployable – some of them think they want a job, but they really don’t want to work !!! Logan, they are not an “educated generation” or even a “lost generation” ……but they are a problem that will not go away ……….. I believe the youth (under 35) unemployment will stay over 35% for years to come!!!!!!!! <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif" alt= wrote:

    Who are you to say such harsh words about the unemployed youth? Do you have any relation to the academic word or such?
    Do not offend entire generations!!

  • #105036
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Many of the employers on the CDS have 2 companies and move staff around to the second company when the 6 month contract is up. Employment law in Spain favours the worker. My hairdresser stupidly gave an indefinate contract to an employee after only a few weeks. She was not there all the time and other employees said the guy had been seen taking coke, not entering some of the transactions etc. She caught him taking drugs and sacked him immediately. He went to employment court and won! Mainly because she had not taken the correct procedure in dismissing him. She had to pay him 6000 euro and he only worked there about 2 months.

    I think the short term contract is the reason why customer service is so bad in Spain. People are employed for the high season and they know there is no chance of staying on after the end of September.

  • #105038
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I know there has been a lot of corruption in the property sector, and probably will be again, but other than that I’ve never come across any corruption in Spain. I’ve never had to pay a bribe to get anything done.

  • #105045
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @mark wrote:

    I know there has been a lot of corruption in the property sector, and probably will be again, but other than that I’ve never come across any corruption in Spain. I’ve never had to pay a bribe to get anything done.

    You don’t but you only come across it when you run your own bussiness. You don’t really have to bribe people but if you want your errand to be done in an “ok” speed you need to offer something.

    Want to extra chair for your restaurants outside? Hand over a few extra bottles of wine to the person handing out the papers etc.

  • #105047
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @mark wrote:

    I know there has been a lot of corruption in the property sector, and probably will be again, but other than that I’ve never come across any corruption in Spain. I’ve never had to pay a bribe to get anything done.

    Mark you must have lived a sheltered life. 🙂
    I hesitate to reminisce but when I was running a business in Spain, back-shish was the normal way to do business with anyone especially the local Mayor and other local politicos.
    I refused to do it and word got around. I could not get anything done. Permits were held up for months, good workmen left me, lawyers sat on contracts. Legal papers got lost. There is a long list and it was incredibly stressful. So I had a division of labour policy with my Spanish partner. He did what was necessary, I took no part, Ponchious Piolet like washing my hands.
    I’m not proud of that period in my business life but it was either that or lose a considerable investment.
    Corruption is not either considered that or called that name, its just normal business practice in the country and the expense of it factored in to the project costs. At least it was then and I know little has changed. The friendships with the people I knew then I still have.

  • #105048
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    TOTALLY AGREE LOGAN I KNOW OF THE EXACT SAME. THATS WHY THE BRITS CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHY THEY HAVE BEEN RIPPED OFF. ITS SADLY THE WAY ITS DONE IN SPAIN.

  • #105049
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    There used to be an old joke both in Spain and France. It was if you want to find where the local Mayor lives in a village all you have to do is look for the biggest and best house. In my experience it’s true. 🙂

  • #105050
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    One thing in Spain’s defence is at least the main political parties are funded by the state. OK so they probably receive plenty of money from elsewhere, but it still seems better than the UK and USA where political parties are entirely privately funded.

  • #105053
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @mark wrote:

    I know there has been a lot of corruption in the property sector, and probably will be again, but other than that I’ve never come across any corruption in Spain. I’ve never had to pay a bribe to get anything done.

    personally, I am not refering to bribery. But how due to the system many people ‘bend the rules’.

  • #105054
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Irrespective of the Country if the rules/laws that are introduced in a Country that do not reflect fairness, cultrural sensitivities, economic realities, lack of implemention & appropriate penalties etc. People will not respect them & find a way around it. This behaviour with the passage of time becomes a norm.

  • #105056
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Yes, bribery is a very British thing.
    In Spain it’s just acceptable to give something if you want something.
    For instance, if I wanted planning consent on land my company owned, I usually had to give a chunk of land to the local council gratis, legal fees paid and free of any encumbrance. (bank debt). That ‘tradition’ continues to this day.
    So any developer has to estimate how much he will have to give away to the Mayor before he can safely calculate a profit.
    Unless you have operated a business in Spain you can never fully appreciate the mind set of functionaries in the local town hall.
    Greedy, grasping parasites one and all. 🙁

    The years spent in Spain taught me many things. Not least that as a investor you are only passing through.

  • #105057
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    logan: You will find it’s the same in the UK. Any development of more than 12 properties (this may have changed in the last few years) requires the developer to build ‘social housing’ & to also supply some kind of planning gain: such as a roundabout, improved road layout etc. No difference really.

  • #105058
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    The difference rob is that in Spain a few years down the road the land gets developed by a company connected or owned by the Mayor or his second cousin.

  • #105059
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Aaaaah! Forgot about that, yes you are quite correct.

  • #105064
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @mark wrote:

    I know there has been a lot of corruption in the property sector, and probably will be again, but other than that I’ve never come across any corruption in Spain. I’ve never had to pay a bribe to get anything done.

    I have never paid a bribe either and I have been running my own businesses for more years than I care to count.

    I also have always done everything above board, which is I think why I can be openly on the forum across these many years now, when times are good it’s great of course, but even then there is no doubt the system is its own worst enemy, and when times go bad, well the system just utterly falls apart and screws literally everyone.

    Sad but true, but you know what, it is getting better.

  • #105169
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    @mark wrote:
    I know there has been a lot of corruption in the property sector, and probably will be again, but other than that I’ve never come across any corruption in Spain. I’ve never had to pay a bribe to get anything done.

    I have never paid a bribe either and I have been running my own businesses for more years than I care to count.

    I also have always done everything above board, which is I think why I can be openly on the forum across these many years now, when times are good it’s great of course, but even then there is no doubt the system is its own worst enemy, and when times go bad, well the system just utterly falls apart and screws literally everyone.

    Sad but true, but you know what, it is getting better.

    😆 😆 😆 😆

  • #105171
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I go on many forums & can assure you that the majority of middle class spaniards don’t consider the protests a joke . Far from it many actively support their younger family members at the protests. yes there are a few anarchists,etc, in amongst them but the vast majority realise that if they don’t do something now they’ll only be working if they move to other countries.
    You’d all do well to remember that the only reason that the UK has not been torched is that the ‘welfare ‘state supports the idle, feckless & downright scum. Withdraw that , which should have been done years ago, & the place will be like Mad Max !
    I’d vote for Dartboys daughter. Anyone on benefits that can drink, smoke, have a mobile phone, sky, flat-screen tv ( or any tv ) is getting too much money ! Full stop , no discussion. If you don’t agree then you’re as bad as them & need culling as well .
    Remember that “When you make peaceful protest impossible, you make violent protest inevitable,” JFK.
    The situation in Spain is different to the uk as there is not the on going safety net to support the people without jobs & the young un-employed. They look at the middle class & those in power as the same.
    In the UK it’s the middle class workers supporting the pikey scum above them that are in power & the pikey scum below them that have never worked.

  • #105174
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @gus-lopez wrote:

    I go on many forums & can assure you that the majority of middle class spaniards don’t consider the protests a joke . Far from it many actively support their younger family members at the protests. yes there are a few anarchists,etc, in amongst them but the vast majority realise that if they don’t do something now they’ll only be working if they move to other countries.
    You’d all do well to remember that the only reason that the UK has not been torched is that the ‘welfare ‘state supports the idle, feckless & downright scum. Withdraw that , which should have been done years ago, & the place will be like Mad Max !
    I’d vote for Dartboys daughter. Anyone on benefits that can drink, smoke, have a mobile phone, sky, flat-screen tv ( or any tv ) is getting too much money ! Full stop , no discussion. If you don’t agree then you’re as bad as them & need culling as well .
    Remember that “When you make peaceful protest impossible, you make violent protest inevitable,” JFK.
    The situation in Spain is different to the uk as there is not the on going safety net to support the people without jobs & the young un-employed. They look at the middle class & those in power as the same.
    In the UK it’s the middle class workers supporting the pikey scum above them that are in power & the pikey scum below them that have never worked.

    gus i’ll put you down for handing out the flyers lol.i think kids of today are brought up wrong and don’t have drilled into them like we did that you need to get off you butt and get a job.My dad never let me sit around watching tv or laying in bed till noon.He asked around for me before i left school and i already had a job in a resaurant on friday + saturday nights and sunday lunch time doing the starters and washing up etc (I was going to be a chef) when i left school i had a job lined up in a factory producing plastic extruded picture frames etc (12 hour shifts 6 days a week) but it didn’t start for 4 weeks so i went strawberry picking for a local farmer a job now done by imigrants why the kids are there to do it just to bloody lazy because they get too much given to them on a plate

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