Why are illegal constructions not appearing in Spanish media

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This topic contains 79 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 7 years, 8 months ago.

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  • #54847
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    I am surprised (being a Spaniard) that something that in this forum has appeared repeatedly (demolishing illegal constructions in Spain, mainly owned by British) do not appear often in Spanish media.

    I am pretty sure most Spaniards do not even know that this is a problem.

    And at the same time, in the UK there are more and more programs about the problems living in Spain for British, but the Spanish government does not do anything at all to change this new perception of Spain being a legally dangerous country for British to live in.

    Isn’t it strange? Just a bit of PR would suffice.

  • #90942
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Yes it’s true, many thousands do not know (except about Marbella). There are also many thousands who do not want to know. Why do you think GIL and other Mayors were re-elected after they had been arrested? Because Local people were doing very well out of construction…Nepotism and Patronage from their Leaders.

    Similar with many British living here, they live in a bubble, appeasing the Spanish and accusing the fellow British of being naive! Most I speak to think the Property Market will pick up by the end of the year 🙄

  • #90943
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    Anonymous
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    @katy wrote:

    Similar with many British living here, they live in a bubble, appeasing the Spanish and accusing the fellow British of being naive!

    And goodness knows we’ve had a belly-full of them posting exactly that on this forum in the past.
    One particular repugnant one has thankfully been quiet recently, hopefully having crawled back in the hole he came from….in Fuengirola.
    (No, I don’t mean you Fuengi!)

  • #90945
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
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    @katy wrote:

    Yes it’s true, many thousands do not know (except about Marbella). There are also many thousands who do not want to know. Why do you think GIL and other Mayors were re-elected after they had been arrested? Because Local people were doing very well out of construction…Nepotism and Patronage from their Leaders.

    Similar with many British living here, they live in a bubble, appeasing the Spanish and accusing the fellow British of being naive! Most I speak to think the Property Market will pick up by the end of the year 🙄

    People know about Marbella corruption, but I do not know if Spanish people know about demolitions. I am not involved in nothing like this, but if I had bought a Spanish house using normal legal procedures, a Notario and all that, and they tell me they will demolish my house and all the Notarios and folks have no problem at all, I would become mad.

    I believe all demolitions should take place if they are illegal constructions, but the professionals involved in the deal, if they were not able to tell the buyer what was going on, are fully liable.

  • #90946
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I think the Spanish Government should step in, freeze any assets of any Constructor who has buit illegaly, fund a compensation scheme so that innocent buyers are FULLY refunded and then demolish the lot. Without demolitions and letting Developers of the hook Spain will never move forward in the fight against corruption.

    BTW There has been some really negative comments in the Spanish Press re. Zapatero this weekend. Some are calling him ZETAPARO. maybe a play with words as PARO is unemployment in Spanish.

  • #90947
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    @katy wrote:
    Similar with many British living here, they live in a bubble, appeasing the Spanish and accusing the fellow British of being naive!

    And goodness knows we’ve had a belly-full of them posting exactly that on this forum in the past.
    One particular repugnant one has thankfully been quiet recently, hopefully having crawled back in the hole he came from….in Fuengirola.
    (No, I don’t mean you Fuengi!)

    I was worried there for a second charlie.

    @farstar

    really? I’m finding that a lot more attention is being given over to planning scandals and illegal builds in the media.

  • #90948
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Yes it’s true, many thousands do not know (except about Marbella). There are also many thousands who do not want to know. Why do you think GIL and other Mayors were re-elected after they had been arrested? Because Local people were doing very well out of construction…Nepotism and Patronage from their Leaders.

    Similar with many British living here, they live in a bubble, appeasing the Spanish and accusing the fellow British of being naive! Most I speak to think the Property Market will pick up by the end of the year 🙄

    Spain has lived on the construction sector for the last 10 years. They did not want the party to finish…

    There is a new name for the generation of the last 10 years: “the brick generation”.

    “Many economists say Spain’s economic growth lacked a solid foundation because it depended so heavily on construction and related industries. These accounted for up to 20 percent of GDP during real estate’s heyday, and now Spain needs a new model based on innovation and technology rather than bricks and mortar.The construction industry was like a train that dragged everything with it as it crashed,” said Sandalio Gomez, an economics professor at IESE Business School in Barcelona.”

    The emperor really has no clothes…

    http://iht.com/articles/ap/2009/03/21/business/EU-Spain-Good-Times-Over.php?page=1

  • #90949
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    Anonymous
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    @katy wrote:

    BTW There has been some really negative comments in the Spanish Press re. Zapatero this weekend. Some are calling him ZETAPARO. maybe a play with words as PARO is unemployment in Spanish.

    A 25% unemployment in Almeria at only the beggining of the crisis really is worrying.
    At a possible future 50% unemployment, the entire region will again be deserted as it was only 30 years ago… The questions is where will all those people go?

  • #90950
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Back to the fields…well under the plastic. ? There is already talk about kicking out the immigrants who are working in them for 4 euro per hour.
    The rest, back to the UK from whence they came a few years ago, to live on benefits paid for by the very Country(UK) they bad-mouthed as they started their new life in the Sun 😉

  • #90951
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    Anonymous
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    @katy wrote:

    Back to the fields…well under the plastic. ? There is already talk about kicking out the immigrants who are working in them for 4 euro per hour.
    The rest, back to the UK from whence they came a few years ago, to live on benefits paid for by the very Country(UK) they bad-mouthed as they started their new life in the Sun 😉

    I know Romanians are masively on their way back home.

    4 euro per hour cannot pay mortgage, let alone cars… In the article it was written that even the hothouse industry is taking a beating so even those jobs will be fought for…

  • #90965
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    farstar: If you are a Spaniard than you should understand the mentality of your compatriats. Most Spaniard do not know whats happening in their street, apart from where the fiesta is. They prefer to remain oblivious & ignorant about their country & as far as they have the money for the beer & going out with friends they do not care.

    I have spoken to my many Spanish friends who are in the construction & other business, they had no idea of the endemic that is going through all over Spain.

    I had told about the story of the “Priors” all I got from them was
    “pobrecitos ” and the next second it was like I was talking of issues on another planet.

  • #90969
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    Anonymous
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    @shakeel wrote:

    farstar: If you are a Spaniard than you should understand the mentality of your compatriats. Most Spaniard do not know whats happening in their street, apart from where the fiesta is. They prefer to remain oblivious & ignorant about their country & as far as they have the money for the beer & going out with friends they do not care.

    I have spoken to my many Spanish friends who are in the construction & other business, they had no idea of the endemic that is going through all over Spain.

    I had told about the story of the “Priors” all I got from them was
    “pobrecitos ” and the next second it was like I was talking of issues on another planet.

    Shakeel, this was the oportunity of a lifetime for many people in Spain to get the money of richer North European people. There will not be such oportunity in our lifetime or maybe our children lifetime.

    Everybody in the authority and construction grabbed the chance to become richer by fleecing people in search of Sun and/or people who were sold short by their own UK, German , etc real estate agent/TV shows and other compatriots involved in property porn.

  • #90971
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    Anonymous
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  • #90972
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Flosmichael: I agree with you. Sadly a few made money in the illegitimate way & in turn deprived the future generations.

  • #90973
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    Anonymous
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    @shakeel wrote:

    Flosmichael: I agree with you. Sadly a few made money in the illegitimate way & in turn deprived the future generations.

    Many stole enough from foreigners to be sufficient for themselves, their children and their grandchildren.

  • #90977
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    Anonymous
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    I think saying “you are guilty” can be assigned both ways. Myself, I resent foreigners buying massively in a region I love (the Mediterranean) which has led to the disappearance of many places I loved (or at least, being changed so much that they are not as I remember them).

    And first it was demand and then supply to service that demand, not the other way around. As a consequence, those monstruous Spaniards who have ripped off Britons are in fact a consequence of the massive and naive introduction of Britons (and other foreigners) in Spain.

    You will maybe leave to another countries, but I will continue suffering the consequences of all that (and many others like me):

    1. Destruction of the environment
    2. Scalation of prices which do not allow typical Spaniards to have a decent home
    3. Rampant corruption

    and Britons will not pay for that, only Spaniards.

  • #90979
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    Anonymous
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    @farstar wrote:

    I think saying “you are guilty” can be assigned both ways. Myself, I resent foreigners buying massively in a region I love (the Mediterranean) which has led to the disappearance of many places I loved (or at least, being changed so much that they are not as I remember them).

    And first it was demand and then supply to service that demand, not the other way around. As a consequence, those monstruous Spaniards who have ripped off Britons are in fact a consequence of the massive and naive introduction of Britons (and other foreigners) in Spain.

    You will maybe leave to another countries, but I will continue suffering the consequences of all that (and many others like me):

    1. Destruction of the environment
    2. Scalation of prices which do not allow typical Spaniards to have a decent home
    3. Rampant corruption

    and Britons will not pay for that, only Spaniards.

    1. The enviroment was destroyed by the Spaniards. Britons or Germans did not invade Spain. The greed belonged purely to the Spanish authorities and to the Spanish people involved in the destruction.

    2. The prices escalated due to the local greed. Nobody asked Spanish vendors and Spanish developers to hike up the prices. Also nobody forced Spanish banks to offer liar loans.

    The British real estate agents were going along with the Spanish real estate agents who were the first to encourage the burbuja inmobiliaria.

    3. the corruption was there to begin with. All the ex-fascist or ex-communist countries have corruption seeded deeply in the minds of many over 30 years old (I can tell you because I know how it is in Romania where people cannot get rid of the corrupted mentality even now, after 20 years after the fall of communism. In 1997, Spain was also only after 20 years of democracy).

    One thing to be sure of: is Spanish authorities do not change the way they are dealing with foreign owned property, many foreigners will just leave and take their money with them and Spain will lose tremendously. People are not going to take
    it anymore.

  • #90980
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Flosmichael. I agree with your posting. I can however see where farstar is coming from.

    Farstar: I remember Spain before Franco died. Yes it has been ruined. Let us not forget that the Spaniards created this market. If you look at Switzerland or Austria, where foreigners cannot buy. The reason for them was that they could sustain their economies & their standard of living without concreting the land.

    Spain, needed these investments, They did not plan or had a strategy of how to protect its wild country side & strike a balance between its economic/natural needs. Spain with its corruption, pasa nada attitude did not legislate in time or did not implement the legislation’s.

    You may remember few years ago when the Opera house was being restored in Madrid (near plaza de Oriente ) they came accross some Roman ruins where the car park was being built. They went ahead & built the car park at the destruction of the Roman ruins. The destruction of Italica, outside Seville, the gypsies living in Alhambra Palace.

    There were no foreigners involved there.

  • #90983
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    I am not saying ALL the responsibility is on foreigners. Definitely, there are always two sides of a coin.

    What I was stressing is the argument “we poor Britons, look those bad Spaniards” is flawed.

    And the party which is defenseless and without guilt (poor Spaniards who were in the losing side during the Franco dictatorship, without contacts with powerful people) is the one who has been hit the hardest: housing prices are (were?) very high, they had not benefit from the construction boom except for secondary effects (spending from the people who directly benefited of construction), and we have, additionally, lost the most beautiful parts of our childhood.

    There are many places in the Mediterranean I visited as a child, and they are not there any more, or they are corrupted. Who pays me back what I have lost?

    Definitely, foreigners arriving to Spain with fat pockets filled with bank notes, where a major factor in the ramp up in housing prices in Spain.

  • #90984
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I agree with both Flosmichel and Shakeel. I too have seen a lot of changes. (I have a photo of myself as a child on the walls of Fuengirola Castle, green fields all around). The Spanish did it all themselves…sheer greed and unregulated development. They had killed the Golden Goose before the Credit Crunch started. During the boom plots of Land doubled overnight when a Foreign person was interested. Most Spanish on the CDS would sell not only their “heritage” but throw their Abuela in too!

  • #90985
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Farstar wrote last year:

    , this is the real situation, as you describe. My question is then: if I build four houses, with high level of luxury, thinking in british clients, in the area I describe, do you think there would be a market for high net worth individuals? I am planning in keeping one for myself (since the current house is too big for vacations, and too old) but having good neighbours around.

    🙄

  • #90986
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    And what do you mean by that?

    BTW, I did not sell this house, it is part of my heritage, even though, as described, the environment is not as I recall it. As a full disclosure, in fact I have never even bought or sold a house or an apartment in my life: I have always rented (or lived in my parents’apartment).

  • #90988
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    @farstar wrote:

    I am not saying ALL the responsibility is on foreigners. Definitely, there are always two sides of a coin.

    What I was stressing is the argument “we poor Britons, look those bad Spaniards” is flawed.

    And the party which is defenseless and without guilt (poor Spaniards who were in the losing side during the Franco dictatorship, without contacts with powerful people) is the one who has been hit the hardest: housing prices are (were?) very high, they had not benefit from the construction boom except for secondary effects (spending from the people who directly benefited of construction), and we have, additionally, lost the most beautiful parts of our childhood.

    There are many places in the Mediterranean I visited as a child, and they are not there any more, or they are corrupted. Who pays me back what I have lost?

    Definitely, foreigners arriving to Spain with fat pockets filled with bank notes, where a major factor in the ramp up in housing prices in Spain.

    The poor will always get poorer and the rich will get richer. One needs to be extremely smart or extremely lucky or both to jump from the loser category to the winner category.

    If you want to get paid back, get the adresses of some biggest developers companies in Spain and go and throw some rotten eggs on their porches.
    Or better still, find where many Spanish mayors are incarcerated and go and
    protest against them. The corrupted developers and corrupted mayors are the only guilty persons in all this mess.

    Of course it is easy to put the blame on foreigners and wash hands like Pilat of Pontus.

  • #90989
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    Anonymous
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    “we poor Britons, look those bad Spaniards”

    I am not into sympathy game for any one concerned.

    “Definitely, foreigners arriving to Spain with fat pockets filled with bank notes, where a major factor in the ramp up in housing prices in Spain.”

    Sorry, I do not buy this as Spain could & should have controlled it. Like my example of Switzerland & Austria. Let me tell you one example of it. The late Sheikh Zahid of Abu Dhabi, one of the richest man in the world wanted to by a plot of land in Switzerland. In an area of natural beauty. He could not buy irrespective of how much he offered. Now you cant get a fatter valet than that.

    In the Yucatan district of Mexico. There is restriction how much you can buy & the construction has to be with 80% local material. I have stayed in one these places, they do not have electrcity & you have to use candles. Hot water was only available for four hours a day. It was lovely & costed more than the Marriott hotel per night.

    I, am sorry I do not agree for placing a blame of foreginors specailly in a Country which through out its history had foreginors Visgoths, Cetls, Romans, Arabs etc. Indeed this wonderful mix makes a true Spainard & his temprement. I for one love this aspect of Spain..

  • #90990
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    flosmichael, you are not fair:

    I stated the two sides are guilty. You stated only one side (Spaniards) was guilty.

  • #90991
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @farstar wrote:

    flosmichael, you are not fair:

    I stated the two sides are guilty. You stated only one side (Spaniards) was guilty.

    I do not consider Britons to be guilty of destroying nature in Spain.

  • #90992
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    katy
    Spectator

    You weren’t so sensitive to your “heritage” to contemplate building four houses and bringing British into the area though…Hypocrite!

  • #90993
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    well spotted Katy; it’s called in Spanish “quitate tu, y mi pongo yo”. Farstar forgets what it was like in spain in the 70’s never mind before; in the early eighties most Andaluces lived below the poverty line toiling away on olive groves, beetroot farms etc ……. then, the gravy train in the form of European funds started to pour in – and they all prospered along with the arrival of the tourist who has been screwed by the likes of “Farstar” (not Farstar) of course.

  • #90994
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    Anonymous
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    Katy

    1. I have not insulted you. I do not think it is proper to say what you have said to me. I think an apology is needed.
    2. Contemplating something does not mean to do it. Otherwise, almost everybody would be a murderer, since almost everybody has contemplated killing somebody else (but not done it ultimately, luckily). In fact, I thought quite a lot about this, and finally I decided to abandon the project, even though the raised capital would have helped me a lot in other places.

  • #90995
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    @farstar wrote:

    Katy

    1. I have not insulted you. I do not think it is proper to do what you have done to me.
    2. Contemplating something does not mean to do it. Otherwise, almost everybody would be a murderer, since almost everybody has contemplated killing somebody else (but not done it ultimately, luckily). In fact, I thought quite a lot about this, and finally I decided to abandon the project, even though the raised capital would have helped me a lot in other places.

    Only one comment: it is very misleading for Spanish people to put the blame on foreigners for their current problems. Germany, UK gave good money for Spanish reconstruction and then UK and German citizens helped Spanish economy by putting money there.

    Now that the party is over, it is very childish to blame foreigners. Natinalism does not take anybody far.

  • #90997
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    Any economist would say both Spaniards and foreigners were factors in that economic disaster.

    You said only Spaniards are guilty, and Britons poor victims. I say both contributed to the stupid increase in prices. In fact, UK housing prices are higher than Spanish ones.

    Regarding Mexico: I was there, and I remember a very long string of hotels, whereby locals could not enter into the beach through the hotels, and had to walk several kilometers to be able to enter into the beach.

    I do not think UK gave much money to Spain. In fact, UK is a net receiver of European funds. Germans yes, definitely they are net donors.

  • #90998
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    Anonymous
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    “Any economist would say both Spaniards and foreigners were factors in that economic disaster. “

    One fed another.

    I don’t see any relevance in people walking to go to the beach in Mexico. The subject was protecting the countryside & its natural beauty & to maintain the economic progress. I gave that as an example.

    I don’t know whether in Mexico the beaches are private of public ?? If they are private than the owner has the right to object the trespassing of his/her property.

  • #90999
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    Anonymous
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    Well, it is very clear: allowing hotels to keep the entrance to the beach closed for the public is not a good way to be “social”. Beaches were public, but if you have to walk on the sand about 7km, not many people do it, and beaches become effectively private.

    This does not happen in Spain, where the first line after the beach is usually a “paseo marítimo”, and land owners around the sea must leave a path for the public to reach the sea.

    What I am saying is nobody is perfect and nobody is fully guilty. Everybody shares some responsibility. Most of it probably goes to developers and politicians, but some of it should go to foreigners who came to Spain and started to buy indiscriminately houses, destroying a stable market.

    I have heard thousands of times Spaniads talking about the “stupid foreigners” which were paying 30-50% above market (or more). This created a lot of damage, and transformed many Spaniards in corrupt people willing to sell anything to “stupid foreigners”.

  • #91000
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    @farstar wrote:

    Any economist would say both Spaniards and foreigners were factors in that economic disaster.

    You said only Spaniards are guilty, and Britons poor victims. I say both contributed to the stupid increase in prices. In fact, UK housing prices are higher than Spanish ones.

    I never said Britons are poor victims. Thery are also greedy.

    But the Spanish mayors are the ones who surrendered protected land to be built with stupid houses. The lack of legislation and the endemic corruption are the only causes for the wreckage in Spain.

    The stupid increase in prices and the nature wreck are different issues. For the first, both foreigners and Spaniards are to blame, for the second only Spaniards are to blame.

  • #91001
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    @farstar wrote:

    I have heard thousands of times Spaniads talking about the “stupid foreigners” which were paying 30-50% above market (or more). This created a lot of damage, and transformed many Spaniards in corrupt people willing to sell anything to “stupid foreigners”.

    So why don’t Spaniards now accept a 50% reduction of prices, to bring the market to a normal one?

    Why are the best deals found on sites with British owned properties??

    I am a poor foreigner and want to buy at 70% reduction of today’s prices and help stabilize the market. 😀

  • #91003
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    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @flosmichael wrote:

    Why are the best deals found on sites with British owned properties??

    taking advantage of exchange rates of course (as you well know).

  • #91004
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    @fuengi wrote:

    @flosmichael wrote:
    Why are the best deals found on sites with British owned properties??

    taking advantage of exchange rates of course (as you well know).

    And so what? Some market value are established by exchange rates, some by people in unfortunate situations (unemployed, divorce, etc).

    The British people have established the market on the way up and now they are establishing on the way down. Spanish were happy to inflate their prices and now they are much more reluctant to be aware of the current conditions and bring the market to what they call “normal”.

    Spaniards have no right to criticize foreigners for the mess that they themselves created there. They should pray to God that their mischieves are forgotten.

  • #91005
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    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @flosmichael wrote:

    And so what? Some market value are established by exchange rates, some by people in unfortunate situations (unemployed, divorce, etc).

    true. But you asked why in brits seem to offer the largest reductions (or along those lines). That’s the reason. A brit looking to move back to the UK stands a better chance at recouping their initial investment (in GBP) than someone only looking a euros.

    Same for someone who bought 10 or 15 years ago. They are more likely to sell at a lower price than someone who bought 2 years ago.

    The rest of the ongoing argument seems to me a little pointless.
    Everyone was happy to hike up the prices if they thought someone would pay it. MAny were happy cement over natural areas. Many were happy to buy the newly cemented areas.
    Maybe we should look at whos blameless in all of this instead of who can be blamed. You guys might have an easier time coming to some sort of agreement.

  • #91006
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    Anonymous
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    From Marks posting:

    “According to Juan Manuel Barragán, a professor and specialist in Coastal land management at the University of Cadiz, Spain has squandered one of its most valuable resources. “The country got drunk on cement,” says Barragán, quoted in El Pais. “When we look back in a few years time and see what we did to the coast during the real estate boom we will realise how stupid it was. A few people made a fortune at the expense of our common heritage.””

    http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/buff/2009/03/spanish-coast-drowned-in-cement-at-fastest-rate-ever-during-boom/

  • #91007
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    katy
    Spectator

    It is not unusual for a price to increase when a Spaniard is selling and someone shows an interest. They do not understand economics. Most of the prices for every day items were increased in January, because “they always do it” 🙄

    We once was interested in a Villa, told the Agent we were interested but thought it was a bit overpriced, the next day they increased the price by 30,000. (and that was when 30,000 was a lot of money, maybe 20% of the price)

  • #91010
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    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    We once was interested in a Villa, told the Agent we were interested but thought it was a bit overpriced, the next day they increased the price by 30,000. (and that was when 30,000 was a lot of money, maybe 20% of the price)

    don’t! had the same situation recently but with russians.

    they had a very overpriced proeprty front line beach. pace place, etc… managed to convince someone to see it on the belief that they would accept an offer and just priced high to negotiate. 3 days later raise the price by 60,000 € please…. some people will jsut not see sense.

  • #91011
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    Anonymous
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    I have heard thousands of times Spaniards talking about the “stupid foreigners” which were paying 30-50% above market (or more). This created a lot of damage, and transformed many Spaniards in corrupt people willing to sell anything to “stupid foreigners”.

    Unlike, today in the olden days there were no prices displayed in the shop windows. In fact most estate agents if you want to call them estate were farmers or people hanging around in the bars. This lack of transparency allowed the local charging the stupid foreginors a different price.

    The, property market in London is always under pressure from foreginors buying. The prices are stated at the estate agents & its the same for the locals or the foreginors. For historical prices, anybody can look at the land registry, records to see what the properties were sold for. This cannot be done in Spain due to under declaration etc.

    It should not be overlooked that in UK, foreigners do not pay capital gains tax as a non residents. However the non resident pays capital gains tax in Spain and until recently at a higher percentage rate.

    Clearly, ripping off the stupid foreigner is very much part of Spain at all levels. Its not Taxi drivers of Malaga airport.

  • #91021
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    @shakeel wrote:

    I have heard thousands of times Spaniards talking about the “stupid foreigners” which were paying 30-50% above market (or more). This created a lot of damage, and transformed many Spaniards in corrupt people willing to sell anything to “stupid foreigners”.

    Unlike, today in the olden days there were no prices displayed in the shop windows. In fact most estate agents if you want to call them estate were farmers or people hanging around in the bars. This lack of transparency allowed the local charging the stupid foreginors a different price.

    The, property market in London is always under pressure from foreginors buying. The prices are stated at the estate agents & its the same for the locals or the foreginors. For historical prices, anybody can look at the land registry, records to see what the properties were sold for. This cannot be done in Spain due to under declaration etc.

    It should not be overlooked that in UK, foreigners do not pay capital gains tax as a non residents. However the non resident pays capital gains tax in Spain and until recently at a higher percentage rate.

    Clearly, ripping off the stupid foreigner is very much part of Spain at all levels. Its not Taxi drivers of Malaga airport.

    Shakeel, as a spaniard I do take much offence from your post, saying that “clearly, ripping off stupid foreigners is very much part of Spain at all levels” it is not only an unfair statement but also xenophobic and, although I won´t go as far as to call your statement (not yourself) racist, many may find at least “culturally racist” if I may say so. What would you think if a spaniard said “clearly, drunkness, hooliganisnm and sluttish behaviour are very much part of british society”…

    It is irrelevant how many times you think you have heard spanish people talking about “ripping off foreigners” just as it would be irrelevant to point out how many times I (or any other spaniard that has to put up with the hordes of uneducated english tourists) have seen english people displaying the aforementioned behaviours, some statements must not be made, full stop.

    Now, I am not denying that some dishonest developers or home owners may be putting up prices when selling their property to a foreigner. In fact setting different prices for different buyers is a common (albeit commonly hidden) practice in many businesses, and many reputable companies such as amazon (the internet bookstore) have admitted to “tailoring prices” depending on customer´s profile (i.e. if a customer normally buys expensive products they are offered higher prices or, as they used to put it “they are not offered discount offers” than those who are more sensitive to price).

    Is this fundamentally dishonest? probably, has this practice anything to do with spanish culture? Certainly not.

    Coming back to the capital gain taxation, why should foreigners not be subjected to them? Again it is irrelevant what the UK Inland Revenue does, if they IR wants to treat UK citizens worse than they treat foreigners they have every right to do it. In Spain we chose not to do such thing. Another poster was praising Switzerland and Austria for not allowing foreigners to buy property in their country, well, this is a much more discriminating practice than applying higher capital gain taxes to foreigners and I am still to hear from you that “discriminating again foreigners is very much part of Switzerland”.

    To finish my rant I´d like to bring up one more thing, the property boom has brought short term wealth to a few at the expense of enslaving a entire generation of spaniards (heavily mortgaged thirty-somethings that can hardly afford their monthly payments, let alone have children, but which have also forfeited any hope of financial freedom over the next 30 years or so).. as you can see it is not only the foreigners that got fleeced here.

  • #91023
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @farstar wrote:

    I do not think UK gave much money to Spain. In fact, UK is a net receiver of European funds. Germans yes, definitely they are net donors.

    I have heard everything now.

    Who told you this fairy tale….one of your “trustworthy” politicians 🙄

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union

    UK are the second largest net contributor after Germany – a total of 57 Billion Euro, approx 937 Euros per capita.

    Hmm, let’s see where Spain are on the list…..ah yes, net recipiant of 2.2 Billion Euro approx 49 Euros per capita.

    Have you got any more “facts” for us?

  • #91024
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Yes, I was wrong with that statement. I thougth with the British rebate, the UK became a net receiver of European funds, but in fact not, it is a net donor.

    However, this does not modify my point. EU is a club, and if you join it and accept being a net donor is your decision, nobody forces you to stay in the EU. If you stay, it is because you think there are more advantages than disadvantages (not the minor one being able to fly without problems and visas to nice countries to spend holidays there).

    Xabi has made some brilliant comments.

    I only want to state something: I know (from the press, not personally) corrupt politicians, corrupt architects, corrupt developers, corrupt bankers.

    All these people have taken advantage of many issues.

    However, in my normal life, and in the life of my family and friends, people are very honest, and lawyers are honest and good working people. Otherwise, they would be out of job rapidly if the rumour spreads they are not taking care of their clients.

    My intuition is most (but not all) British that have come to Spain are living in a different world (both mentally and physically) as most Spaniards, and they came with a biased idea of what Spain is about. I think most British attracted, because of this attitude, the worst kind of Spaniards, which ripped them off.

    I hope all British people who have been ripped off go to court and help us getting rid of those bastards. But just complaining about “Spanish culture” is, as Xabi states, some kind of cultural racism.

    The problem is not “culture” but incentives. And when one goes with deep pockets, overpays 30-50%, and does not do due diligence, this person is giving all the incentives for crooks to take advantage of him/her.

  • #91025
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @jaseywasey wrote:

    @farstar wrote:
    I
    Hmm, let’s see where Spain are on the list…..ah yes, net recipiant of 2.2 Billion Euro approx 49 Euros per capita.

    Have you got any more “facts” for us?

    It is obvious that many Spaniards will put the blame on foreigners for many of their problems. The good news is that life will teach them a lesson.

  • #91026
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @xabi wrote:

    may say so. What would you think if a spaniard said “clearly, drunkness, hooliganisnm and sluttish behaviour are very much part of british society”…

    .

    Spanish businesses were thriving on selling food and alcohol to NOrthern Europe
    people. There were happy to have drunkness, hooliganisnm and sluttish behaviour as long they were selling their product.

  • #91027
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @flosmichael wrote:

    @xabi wrote:
    may say so. What would you think if a spaniard said “clearly, drunkness, hooliganisnm and sluttish behaviour are very much part of british society”…

    .

    Spanish businesses were thriving on selling food and alcohol to NOrthern Europe
    people. There were happy to have drunkness, hooliganisnm and sluttish behaviour as long they were selling their product.

    Again cultural racism. You cannot make guilty of an assassination to the seller of weapons. Weapons (or alcohol) are sold to be used properly. If they are not used properly, this is the responsibility of the user.

    Moreover, only restaurants and bars take advantage of selling alcohol. Most other Spaniards just suffer the consequences of it (noise, …). But of course, you cannot ban bars or restaurants.

    Additionally, the most outstanding pieces of drunkness, hooliganism and sluttish behaviour I have ever seen are not in Spain, but in the UK (however, most British people are good and decent citizens).

  • #91028
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @farstar wrote:

    @flosmichael wrote:
    @xabi wrote:
    may say so. What would you think if a spaniard said “clearly, drunkness, hooliganisnm and sluttish behaviour are very much part of british society”…

    .

    Spanish businesses were thriving on selling food and alcohol to NOrthern Europe
    people. There were happy to have drunkness, hooliganisnm and sluttish behaviour as long they were selling their product.

    Again cultural racism. You cannot make guilty of an assassination to the seller of weapons. Weapons (or alcohol) are sold to be used properly. If they are not used properly, this is the responsibility of the user.
    .

    Cultural racism? 😀

  • #91029
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @xabi wrote:

    Shakeel, as a spaniard I do take much offence from your post, saying that “clearly, ripping off stupid foreigners is very much part of Spain at all levels” it is not only an unfair statement but also xenophobic and, although I won´t go as far as to call your statement (not yourself) racist, many may find at least “culturally racist” if I may say so. What would you think if a spaniard said “clearly, drunkness, hooliganisnm and sluttish behaviour are very much part of british society”… .

    I think you will find that most people would agree with you, that a large minority of British tourists are hooligans & sluts! So please feel free to say it!

    But if these people fall foul of your laws, they can and will be arrested.

    The thousands of foreigners who have been ripped-off here, cannot get justice in your courts either!

    @xabi wrote:

    It is irrelevant how many times you think you have heard spanish people talking about “ripping off foreigners” just as it would be irrelevant to point out how many times I (or any other spaniard that has to put up with the hordes of uneducated english tourists) have seen english people displaying the aforementioned behaviours, some statements must not be made, full stop..

    Really, then campaign to your government for withdrawal from the European Union and inist on visas for British tourists before they can enter Spain. This will allow all pontential visitors to be “vetted” in advance. All sluts & hooligans can be weeded out at this stage.

    @xabi wrote:

    Now, I am not denying that some dishonest developers or home owners may be putting up prices when selling their property to a foreigner. In fact setting different prices for different buyers is a common (albeit commonly hidden) practice in many businesses, and many reputable companies such as amazon (the internet bookstore) have admitted to “tailoring prices” depending on customer´s profile (i.e. if a customer normally buys expensive products they are offered higher prices or, as they used to put it “they are not offered discount offers” than those who are more sensitive to price).

    Is this fundamentally dishonest? probably, has this practice anything to do with spanish culture? Certainly not.

    Yes, but Amazon dont tell you they have a guarantee that if your book doesn’t arrive they will give you your money back….but it turns out this guarantee is worthless

    They also don’t sell books that are illegal.

    They dont claim their books have 400 pages, but when they arrive only actually have 150.

    Their books don’t fall apart after being read a couple of times.

    I could go on….

    @xabi wrote:

    Coming back to the capital gain taxation, why should foreigners not be subjected to them? Again it is irrelevant what the UK Inland Revenue does, if they IR wants to treat UK citizens worse than they treat foreigners they have every right to do it. In Spain we chose not to do such thing. Another poster was praising Switzerland and Austria for not allowing foreigners to buy property in their country, well, this is a much more discriminating practice than applying higher capital gain taxes to foreigners and I am still to hear from you that “discriminating again foreigners is very much part of Switzerland”.

    As I said previously, if you don’t like the laws of the EU, then please feel free to lobby your government for Spain’s withdrawal.

    @xabi wrote:

    To finish my rant I´d like to bring up one more thing, the property boom has brought short term wealth to a few at the expense of enslaving a entire generation of spaniards (heavily mortgaged thirty-somethings that can hardly afford their monthly payments, let alone have children, but which have also forfeited any hope of financial freedom over the next 30 years or so).. as you can see it is not only the foreigners that got fleeced here.

    I couldnt agree more with you. It’s incredible that everyone complains about food, petrol and other costs increasing, but are delighted when houses go up in price.

  • #91030
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @flosmichael wrote:

    Spanish businesses were thriving on selling food and alcohol to NOrthern Europe
    people. There were happy to have drunkness, hooliganisnm and sluttish behaviour as long they were selling their product.

    Flosmichael,

    You have completely missed my point so I will repeat it here for clarity´s sake: making a general statement such as “ripping off foreigners is very much ingrained in Spain´s culture at all levels” is just as unfair as saying “drunkenness, hooliganism and sluttish behaviour are part of British culture”.

    That was my point, the alleged behaviour of british tourists was simply provided as an example, an example that I see fitting given the context of what we are discussing here, any other example of unfair generalizations would have been equally valid.

    Now, again, some homeowners are indeed opportunistic and perhaps even dishonest, but this is hardly a spanish trait as i think i proved by mentioning Amazon´s price tailoring and for which thousand of other examples could easily be found. (If you walk into a Moroccan Zoco or a Turkish market do you expect to be offered the same prices as a local would? )

    As any economist would tell you, the problem of asymmetrical information is that it greatly distorts the market, any market, not just the property market.

    In any case, these days the internet is there for everyone to look up, everyone can easily check property prices and become informed of what the public asking price. And since you are posting in this forum I presume you are an internet-savvy individual who will not allow to be ripped off.

    Flosmichal, I hope this is clear now.

  • #91031
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Hmmm, these “Spanish” people posting on this thread are excellent at writing in English, not even a slightest misuse of a word….most unusual 😆

  • #91033
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Hmmm, these “Spanish” people posting on this thread are excellent at writing in English, not even a slightest misuse of a word….most unusual 😆

    yes, they call it “education” 😀

  • #91035
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @axwhale wrote:

    My nightmare has been going on for 6 years now with thousands of euros paid out no BG, change of solicitors, a house that is built but has no licence and the builders have not complied to Town hall regulations, an uninterested builder who won’t cooperate, a law suit going ahead. The outlook doesn’t look good, it just seems that the buyers are treated shabily and the solicitors and the builders and agents are the only ones who come out of this dam mess with anything its us that lose out.
    We have done everything to try and get our money back which was half the cost of the property I think in the end we will just have to admit defeat.
    What makes me angry is that the builder has had thousands of our money, not fullfilled his part of the contract, we are left with an illegal house if its knocked down we get nothing, hes had our money probably had a few holidays on us 👿 , the solicitors have been paid , the agents have had their commission. What about us surley the system can’t be right. I feel let down and so angry that so many lives have been ruined all over Spain in situations like ours. You trust the professionals expecting that they will look after your interests as their clients you hope they would be on your side. Fat chance ❗ We shouldn’t have to be experts on Spanish Law but if we want any kind of fare play I think we will all need to be more savvy about the unjust system currently inplace.

    Ive no time for any of them they can all rot in a very hot place for all I care 😈 😈

    Reply from another thread

    Perfect example of why the Brits are turning their backs on Spain.

    This country will be on it’s knees in a few years and they will only have themselves to blame.

  • #91036
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Katy, jo sóc català, no crec que molts britànics siguin capaços d’escriure això mateix (Katy, I am Catalan, I doubt many British people are able to write what I have just written in Catalan).

  • #91038
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @jaseywasey wrote:

    @axwhale wrote:
    My nightmare has been going on for 6 years now with thousands of euros paid out no BG, change of solicitors, a house that is built but has no licence and the builders have not complied to Town hall regulations, an uninterested builder who won’t cooperate, a law suit going ahead. The outlook doesn’t look good, it just seems that the buyers are treated shabily and the solicitors and the builders and agents are the only ones who come out of this dam mess with anything its us that lose out.
    We have done everything to try and get our money back which was half the cost of the property I think in the end we will just have to admit defeat.
    What makes me angry is that the builder has had thousands of our money, not fullfilled his part of the contract, we are left with an illegal house if its knocked down we get nothing, hes had our money probably had a few holidays on us 👿 , the solicitors have been paid , the agents have had their commission. What about us surley the system can’t be right. I feel let down and so angry that so many lives have been ruined all over Spain in situations like ours. You trust the professionals expecting that they will look after your interests as their clients you hope they would be on your side. Fat chance ❗ We shouldn’t have to be experts on Spanish Law but if we want any kind of fare play I think we will all need to be more savvy about the unjust system currently inplace.

    Ive no time for any of them they can all rot in a very hot place for all I care 😈 😈

    Reply from another thread

    Perfect example of why the Brits are turning their backs on Spain.

    This country will be on it’s knees in a few years and they will only have themselves to blame.

    I find these cases distressing. However, I do not understand much why these people are not reimbursed with what they paid. I mean, if they bought a property where it was not legally possible to build a house there, and the professionals who took some commissions did not tell this to the buyers, they are guilty of fraud.

    Why not just go to court? I am sure they would win the case. In the Spanish legislation, there has to be somewhere a piece of code where it states who is responsible of what. And there are many people in the middle: Notaries, lawyers, … Come on, if they get some money, they are responsible of something, I guess!

    Just go to court at 100%! It cannot be an obvious case of fraud goes unpunished.

    It they do not do it, my hypothesis is there are more hidden things we do not know.

  • #91039
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Remember my post re. the demolition in Marbella, well the Developer has not finished the job! Half of it is still standing and the bulldozer gone. Can’t finish anything can they 🙄 The structure was 3 floors, 34 units, surely there must be a safety issue too. In Diario Sur today.

    Interesting comment from Antonio, Marbella

    So these are the promised demolitions, this is how they will restore legal planning. What a bunch of corrupt Politicians and judges! After everyone has lined their pockets, our Countryside has been destroyed forever and we will pay for it for Centuries.

    Very rough translation, perhaps our talented Spanish members could do it much better 😆

  • #91040
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    My reply in block capital:

    Shakeel, as a spaniard I do take much offence from your post. THAT IS YOUR CHOICE, TAKING AN OFFENCE WILL NOT CHANGE THINGS.

    saying that “clearly, ripping off stupid foreigners is very much part of Spain at all levels”

    YES, IT IS AND I AM NOT GOING TO RETRACT IT.

    it is not only an unfair statement but also xenophobic and, although I won´t go as far as to call your statement (not yourself) racist, many may find at least “culturally racist”

    IT IS NIETHER XENOPHOBIC, RACIST OR CULTURALLY RACIST.

    if I may say so. What would you think if a spaniard said “clearly, drunkness, hooliganisnm and sluttish behaviour are very much part of british society”…

    I WILL NOT SAY ANYTHING, AS IT IS, THE GOVERNMENT & OTHER BODIES ACCEPT IT. OFCOURSE THIS WILL NOT COVER TEA DRINKERS

    It is irrelevant how many times you think you have heard spanish people talking about “ripping off foreigners” just as it would be irrelevant to point out how many times I (or any other spaniard that has to put up with the hordes of uneducated english tourists)

    I AM SURE THAT YOU HAVE PUT UP WITH THEM, ALONG WITH OTHER SPANIARDS. THE PEOPLE THAT SPAIN ATTRACTS FALL INTO THIS CATOGERY. THIS IS NOT THE CASE IN ITALY OR FRANCE.

    have seen english people displaying the aforementioned behaviours, some statements must not be made, full stop.

    AGREE, INAPPROPRIATE BEHAVOIUR BY ANYBODY IN ANY SOCIETY IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

    Now, I am not denying that some dishonest developers or home owners may be putting up prices when selling their property to a foreigner.

    I DO NOT CONSIDER THIS TO BE DISHONEST. THE SELLER ONCES ESTABLISHES A MARKET VALUE. THIS VALUE SHOULD BE USED WHETER THEY ARE SELLING TO LOCAL OR NOT.

    In fact setting different prices for different buyers is a common (albeit commonly hidden) practice in many businesses, and many reputable companies such as amazon (the internet bookstore) have admitted to “tailoring prices” depending on customer´s profile (i.e. if a customer normally buys expensive products they are offered higher prices or, as they used to put it “they are not offered discount offers” than those who are more sensitive to price).

    TO VAGUE TO COMMENT UPON.

    Is this fundamentally dishonest? probably, has this practice anything to do with spanish culture? Certainly not.

    Coming back to the capital gain taxation, why should foreigners not be subjected to them?

    I SUGGUEST YOU READ ABOUT ECONOMICS, TAXATION & ITS AFFECTS & EFFECTS ON INWARD INVESTMENTS. THAN LOOK AT THE SUB EFFECTS OF THIS.

    Again it is irrelevant what the UK Inland Revenue does, if they IR wants to treat UK citizens worse than they treat foreigners they have every right to do it.

    YES, AGAIN READ IN CONTEXT WITH THE ABOVE.

    In Spain we chose not to do such thing.

    WHY, SHOULD THEY IF THEY CAN RIP OFFF FOREIGNORS. HAS SPAIN EVER DONE ANY WORK ON ESTABLISHING THE DAMAGE THIS HAD DONE TO SPAIN & THE BILLIONS THAT HAS NOT BEEN INJECTED INTO THE SPANISH ECONOMY FOR THIS REASONS.

    Another poster was praising Switzerland and Austria for not allowing
    IT WAS NOT A PRAISE, IT WAS A FACT THAT HAS HELPED THEM TO PROTECT THEIR LANDSCAPE ETC. FOR YOUR INFORMATION THERE CANTONS WHERE NON SWISS CAN BUY.

    foreigners to buy property in their country, well, this is a much more discriminating practice.

    THE DISCUSSION IS NOT ABOUT DESCREMINATION. ITS ABOUT RIPPING NON SPANIARDS & PROTECTING SPANISH LANDSCAPE ETC.

    than applying higher capital gain taxes to foreigners and I am still to hear from you that “discriminating again foreigners is very much part of Switzerland”.

    PLEASE SEE ABOVE.

    To finish my rant I´d like to bring up one more thing, the property boom has brought short term wealth to a few at the expense of enslaving a entire generation of spaniards.

    SUCH IS FREE ECONOMY. PEOPLE WHO ARE/WERE AWARE & NOT PASSING THEIR TIME ON A SIESTA & FEISATA TOOK ADANTAGE OF IT. DO NOT FORGET THE VAT THAT IT HAS BROUGHT TO THE HACIENDA AND TO THE SPANISH RESERVES.

    (heavily mortgaged thirty-somethings that can hardly afford their monthly payments, let alone have children, but which have also forfeited any hope of financial freedom over the next 30 years or so)..

    NOT EVERY CITIZEN CAN AFFORD TO BUY A PLACE IN ANY COUNTRY. SOME OF US HAVE TO RENT. AGAIN AS THE RENTAL ACT IN SPAIN IS SO MUCH SLANTED TOWARDS THE TENANTS & THE SLOWNESS OF THE LEGAL SYSTEM THAT LANDLORDS DO NOT ENTER THE MARKET IF THIS CAN BE DONE. THE RENTS WILL COME DOWN.

    IN, CONCLUSION I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THAT I DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING AGAINST SPANIARDS ON THE CONTRARY. HOWEVER REALITIES OF LIFE ARE THERE & HAVE TO BE ACKNOWLEDGED, WITH MATURTITY.

    as you can see it is not only the foreigners that got fleeced here.

  • #91041
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “I hope all British people who have been ripped off go to court and help us getting rid of those bastards”

    Farstar: How nieve are you ?? The Courts do not work, the judges are bribed. The forum is full of it.

    A basic of law is that anything that is illegal and based on it therefore all subsequent contracts are illegal. In Spain you take a developer to Court (first of all you will lucky to get a honest professional lawyer ) who has build a illegal property & sells it. He wins his case, can you explain why if the property was illegal than all subsequent contracts should be illegal.

    Where if as recently some cases are being won by buyer. The developer appeals against the decision. In a clear cut case the judge should not allow right of appeal.

    My friend wake up and don’t blame foreginors for your Countries ills. In Fact the foreigners have raised the issue, otherwise the status Quo, would have carried on.

    Not to mention the parasite, notray. What is his job, isnt his/her function is to see that the contracts are legal. All he does is verify the parties.

  • #91042
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @xabi wrote:

    You have completely missed my point so I will repeat it here for clarity´s sake: making a general statement such as “ripping off foreigners is very much ingrained in Spain´s culture at all levels” is just as unfair as saying “drunkenness, hooliganism and sluttish behaviour are part of British culture”.

    That was my point, the alleged behaviour of british tourists was simply provided as an example, an example that I see fitting given the context of what we are discussing here, any other example of unfair generalizations would have been equally valid.

    Flosmichal, I hope this is clear now.

    It is not clear at all.

    The people who get drunk and are hooligans when in Spain are usually low-lives
    who belong to the lower classes. They are not owners of buiding companies and are not mayors of cities/villages in UK. Drunks/hooligans will never be elected as mayors.

    On the other hand, the biggest thieves/corrupted in Spain were the developers and mayors.

    So one can say that “ripping off foreigners is very much ingrained in Spain´s culture at developer/mayor level” whereas “drunkenness, hooliganism and sluttish behaviour are part of low-life British culture”.

    I hope you see the difference.

  • #91043
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @xabi wrote:

    Now, again, some homeowners are indeed opportunistic and perhaps even dishonest, but this is hardly a spanish trait as i think i proved by mentioning Amazon´s price tailoring and for which thousand of other examples could easily be found. (If you walk into a Moroccan Zoco or a Turkish market do you expect to be offered the same prices as a local would? )

    Hi Xabi,

    I do agree with you that its unpleasant when someone makes such comments, but until people on these sort of sites do not feel that there is the right level of accountability its going to continue.

    Its a simple cost/benefit analysis for most. If you think you can get away with a crooked act, you will go through with it. Which explains a lot of lawyers, developers, agents, etc… and the destructive acts they did.

  • #91044
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Ok, to Sakeel, Jaysayer, Katy and others, I will try to wrap up:

    Katy, I am one hundred per cent born and bred spanish, feel free to believe it or not.

    Jaysayer, in a few years this country will not “be on its knees”, but thank you for the friendly warning, I am sure we will be able to choose a better model for growth next time, in the meantime we will all suffer from our overdependancy on the building sector just like the UK are suffering for their dependancy on the financial sector.

    Shakeel, Spain has indeed destroyed much of its landscape and believe me that I am the first one to regret it.
    Furthermore, thanks to the “free market” that you are referring to in your post, we have also lost an entire generation to the property market madness, a generation that I am part of. Now this is not an exclusively spanish problem, Japan lost a entire decade due to wild property speculation as I am sure an individual as well versed in economy as yourself will know.

    Spain for sure has a slow judiciary system, and corruption has mushroomed in some areas due to the property boom. Hopefully not many good faith buyers will have their properties demolished and things will be done properly in the future. In the meantime many corrupt individuals are being tried and condemned.

    Now, I guess some people here are very sensitive to the issues discussed and I have the feeling that any comments made here are bound to touch a few raw nerves. This was not my intention. I just think it is unfair to equate spanish culture to dishonesty as I believe some of you have done.

  • #91046
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @xabi wrote:

    I just think it is unfair to equate spanish culture to dishonesty as I believe some of you have done.

    I do not think that anybody equated that…

  • #91047
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Xabi. Before, I go ahead I had no doubt that you were 100% Spanish & your English as good as many of my Spanish friends if not better. I did not wanted to be patronising to you. I am aware how proud a race the Spaniards are and dont take critcsm very well.

    “Spain has indeed destroyed much of its landscape and believe me that I am the first one to regret it.”

    So, we agree on this one. I do not have words to describe as non Spaniard how much I regret the destruction of the wild & rugged natural beauty of Spain.

    Furthermore, thanks to the “free market” that you are referring to in your post, we have also lost an entire generation to the property market

    Economic, realities. A caring & forwarding thinking government would balance this out. Spain just wanted to grab all it could & ignore the rest.

    madness, a generation that I am part of. Now this is not an exclusive spanish problem, Japan lost a entire decade due to wild property speculation as I am sure an individual as well versed in economy as yourself will know.

    I am aware. I had enough issues covering Switzerland, Austria & Mexico and did not wanted to go to Japan on it. However Japan has a very varied economy. The Japanese work ethics at the other extreme of the Spanish work athics. The Japanese are proud about their products and all associated with it. Spanish has a pasa nada attitude.

    Spain, for sure has a slow judiciary system, and corruption has mushroomed in some areas due to the property boom.

    The corruption had been there & as most Spaniards were not affected by it. This was not a issue. I have Spanish lawyer friends & their parents were lawyers.( Apart from my father was a lawyer) I always spoke to them on subject.

    Hopefully not many good faith buyers will have their properties demolished.

    If the property needs to demolished, due to the failure of the system. I don’t have an issue. The issue I have is when people bought in good faith and the system has failed them from top to bottem, they should be adequate & speedily compensated, than & than only things will change. Look at the dispicable case of the “Priors”

    and things will be done properly in the future.

    Sorry, I do not see this. As the current/next generation is in the same mould. They do not see this an issue and some cases lack to understand the depth of the issue that it has & can bring tp Spain in all walks of it future.

    In the meantime many corrupt individuals are being tried and condemned.
    Condemned to what ?? Judges have been transferred to other courts, €200k bails been given, no questions asked where the bail money coming from, people let out over the weekends, jobs left open for them even when they are been found guilty. In my vocabulary this no condemnation .

  • #91048
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    To finish my rant I´d like to bring up one more thing, the property boom has brought short term wealth to a few at the expense of enslaving a entire generation of spaniards (heavily mortgaged thirty-somethings that can hardly afford their monthly payments, let alone have children, but which have also forfeited any hope of financial freedom over the next 30 years or so).. as you can see it is not only the foreigners that got fleeced here.

    [/quote]

    Xabi, Why do you say “got fleeced”? it’s true that a whole generation of Spaniards are in huge trouble with properties that are soon going to fall by a serious amount, negative equity, rising and probably here to stay unemployment in excess of 4 million. This generation fell into the trap of thinking everything could be had – new flat, new seat ibiza, flat screen tvs, holidays in cuba – all at once and put on the never, never !!

    But were they fleeced? No, I don’t think so – Within a year, the term sub prime “customers” will soon be ringing in our ears !! Banks lent without checking ability to pay and turning a blind eye to bent valuations. With unemployment rising and wages pushed down by overjoyed employers, the panorama is black for young home owners !! How is it going to end ?? who knows, but lots of tears and lives ruined for ever !!!

    Fleeced ??NO , but a national disgrace and a stain on Zapatero who promised to look after the most vulnerable and the young !!

    Xabi, by the way; your English is better than most of Brits who post here !!

  • #91050
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Yeah, he is an English Troll 😆

  • #91052
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Yeah, he is an English Troll 😆

    No, I learnt english from a book. 8)

  • #91054
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I never hear a Spanish person use the word “Spaniard” to describe themselves. It is considered a bit derogatory, at least non PC. What do I know though, only had a Spanish Grandfather and taught English to Spaniards whoops…Spanish people 😉

    Also you don’t seem to have an accent on your keyboard 🙄

  • #91058
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “I never hear a Spanish person use the word “Spaniard” to describe themselves. It is considered a bit derogatory”

    Of Course Spaniards will not call themselves “Spaniard” as they will be called “Espanoles”

    How & why do you its a derogatory term ??? Please expand on it. It has always been used in a plural for people originating from Spain, irrespective of their gender.

  • #91064
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    I never hear a Spanish person use the word “Spaniard” to describe themselves. It is considered a bit derogatory, at least non PC. What do I know though, only had a Spanish Grandfather and taught English to Spaniards whoops…Spanish people 😉

    Also you don’t seem to have an accent on your keyboard 🙄

    If “spaniard” happened to be a derogatory term for spanish people and I hadn´t known it, and had been using it while pretending to be spanish… then that would only prove that my knowlegde of english is not as good you initially thought and therefore you may finally concede that I am spanish and that english is not my mother tongue. 😉

  • #91066
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Hi troll, why don’t you have your keyboard set on Spanish. A Spaniard (cough) never misses out an accent.

  • #91067
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Hi troll, why don’t you have your keyboard set on Spanish. A Spaniard (cough) never misses out an accent.

    Katy, as you can see i have sent you a very angry personal message (in spanish and full of accents). I will summarize it here for the benefit (very dubious benefit, indeed) of the forum and consider this line of conversation closed.

    I think Katy is being outright offensive with me for two reasons:

    1) She´s calling me Troll, she´s calling my nationality into question (subsequently, she´s calling me a liar)
    2) She´s implying that spaniards cannot learn english to a decent level, which is very derogatory. (Katy should ask herself whether she would doubt my nationality so much if had claimed to be dutch or german? I sense a bit of racism here, but may be just me being oversensitive)

    For these two reasons I must draw a line, the discussion about my nationaltiy is not of great interest to anyone, probably not even for Katy, who just wants to say “hey, look how I scared off the troll” (me, troll??).

    Katy, at the beginning I though you were capable of rational discussion, now I can clearly see that you are not.

    Katy, I guess it would be naive to expect an apology from you, but if you cannot stoop to that the very least you could do is admit “ok I rationally cannot be sure that this guy is not spanish and I don´t have any reason to actually put that into question”.

  • #91068
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Does it matter if Xabi, is English, Spanish, male/female. What matters is his/her contribution to the forum.

  • #91069
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Yes, had a nasty message from the Spaniard accusing me of racism and telling me about his Welsh Teacher. All in Spanish of course, and he “found” the accent and tilde too.

    Shakeel, it makes a difference to me because some come on forums claiming to be Spanish as a way of re-enforcing their opinion. I am not suggesting that a Spanish person is not capable of writing excellent English, we already have a couple of posters who do. But there is always something “je ne sais quoi” that gives them away however good they are that English is not their first language, same as yourself. Have you seen me challenge any of our other Spanish members..no. But when we get two on one thread, both writing impeccable English and claiming to be Spanish it is lacking credibility.

    I won’t mention it again as it will spoil the debate.

  • #91087
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “it makes a difference to me because some come on forums claiming to be Spanish as a way of re-enforcing their opinion”

    They can enforce their opinion as they are entitled to it. Most people will read it and form their own opinion.

  • #91109
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Umm! Can we get back to the original thread please?

    Unfortunately, the Spanish people that I have met, seem to be under the misapprehension that ALL Brits who come over to Spain have “fat wallets”.

    The use of this terminology in a previous post smacks of an inate envy by some Spanish people against more affluent countries. I’m sure they, if in that position, would do the same.

    Following on from this, it has been suggested that because of the above, those with the fat wallets therefore deserve to be conned because they can afford it.

    Not all foreign buyers have loads of money, some need mortgages to complete yet they are lumped into this generalisation.

    If these are the type of view that pervades Spanish society as a whole, it is not surprising that there is little sympathy when property abuses involving Brits/foreign buyers come before the judiciary.

    Regardless of who is buying a property, that buyer should be able to guarantee the honesty and integrity of the Spanish property system as well as be able to trust those professionals who are there to safeguard such transactions, be it lawyers, town hall officials, notaries or bankers.

    That is what they are there for and being paid for.

    I don’t buy the Spanish line that some buyers knew they were buying illegal properties (because they were cheap, supposedly). Who in their right minds would want to buy an illegal property? It just doesn’t make sense. Also, how can the Spanish authorities distinguish between buyers who knowingly bought illegal properties and those that were scammed?

    Surely, these attitudes show that some Spanish people cannot to accept responsibility for a situation of their compatriots making? Like it or not, there are always going to be corrupt/bad people in any society, it just seems that Spain has more than its fair share when it come to the property market and the “gold rush” mentality that this created amongst a section of the Spanish populace.

  • #91110
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “Surely, these attitudes show that some Spanish people cannot to accept responsibility for a situation of their compatriots making?

    Spaniards, do not like to take responsibility, are afraid to make mistakes & it will go against them. Ask any Spaniard to sign for anything they will not do it. This clearly show that they themselves don’t trust the system. that why everything is done the phone. If you than ask them to confirm the conversation or what was discussed in writing. They will not do it.

    “Like it or not, there are always going to be corrupt/bad people in any society,”
    Agree, these will be an individual or a few no of people, but than the relevant society deals with them in a time & appropriate manner. In Spain its is spread like a cancer and instead of dealing with it. A systamatic mafia style protection tentacles are spread.

    “it just seems that Spain has more than its fair share when it come to the property market and the “gold rush” mentality”

    Its in other areas as well, we are not exposed to it.

  • #91111
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’m not saying Shakeel that corruption is exclusively a Spanish problem, but I am commenting on a Spanish Property Forum, I am a victim of said Spanish corruption and therefore, from what I have read and experienced, the greed and corruption that has spread as a result of the property “gold rush” is more widespread (in Spain) than the Spanish people would care to admit.

  • #91113
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @fran wrote:

    Umm! Can we get back to the original thread please?

    Unfortunately, the Spanish people that I have met, seem to be under the misapprehension that ALL Brits who come over to Spain have “fat wallets”.
    .

    I think now it is a good time to teach them that the perception is wrong.

    One easy way is to make cheeky offers and drive hard negotiations.

  • #91114
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Fran, your comments accepted.

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