Who Supported Their Fellow Catalans?

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This topic contains 44 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 3 years ago.

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  • #57795
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Gosh, a 250 mile chain of Catalans wanting independence, who on here supported their fellow country folk? Did you join the chain? ๐Ÿ˜‰

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/10303306/400000-person-human-chain-stretching-250-miles-for-Catalan-independence.html

    If this happens one day, will you be pleased to be independent as the majority appear to want so much? ๐Ÿ™„

  • #118208
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    nope, no interest in it whatsoever.
    I think its all pointless posturing, and emptying the schools for this was particularly annoying.

  • #118209
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Shame on you Andrew, 400,000 seemed interested ๐Ÿ˜ฎ ๐Ÿ™„ Only kidding of course, however, you’re based in Fuengirola aren’t you, so assume you are not Catalan nor living there or am I mistaken? โ“ ๐Ÿ˜• Organisers said 1.6 million people were interested enough to form chain, people power ๐Ÿ˜›

    However, maybe Mark (lived there long enough) and Gary joined the chain ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • #118210
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    VIVA ESPANA !!

  • #118211
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

    The topic shouldn’t affect you in Kent or the Canaries, btw it was big news in most of the Press and Spanish news at that, don’t see your point (snipe) about buying a property in Spain, been there done that, two in fact ๐Ÿ™„ :mrgreen:

  • #118214
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Ptr, even I’m confused now you’ve changed your previous post which was having a pop so to speak and off track with topic. Andrew knows me of old and I was joking with him ๐Ÿ™„

  • #118215
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Shame on you Andrew, 400,000 seemed interested ๐Ÿ˜ฎ ๐Ÿ™„ Only kidding of course, however, you’re based in Fuengirola aren’t you, so assume you are not Catalan nor living there or am I mistaken? โ“ ๐Ÿ˜• Organisers said 1.6 million people were interested enough to form chain, people power ๐Ÿ˜›

    However, maybe Mark (lived there long enough) and Gary joined the chain ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ˜‰

    My Spanish side (father) is from Catalonia. Barcelona actually. :mrgreen:
    My uncle is a political figure in the Esquerra Republicana. ๐Ÿ™„

    But yes I am based in Fuengirola.

  • #118217
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    I didn’t participate in ‘the wall.’ I’m staying out of the issue regarding the actual decision because I don’t want to be a meddling foreigner. But I readily involve myself when I see a load of crap labeled as being news or valid opinion.

    And I will continue to state this: If the central government of Spain and/or the rest of Spain had ’embraced’ the wonderful cultural aspects of Catalunya, had they endeavored to understand why Catalans banned bullfighting (instead of making fun of them or even trying to overrule the ban), if they demonstrated that they do not prefer fascism to Catalan independence, if they showed one ounce of gratitude to the Catalan economy that actually funds other ‘welfare’ regions of Spain, the vast majority of Catalans would not entertain a referendum about independence.

    http://www.thelocal.es/20130912/video-fascists-attack-catalan-national-day-party

    http://www.thelocal.es/20130902/dont-go-soft-on-fascism-eu-to-spain

  • #118218
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    There is some very substantial regional devolution in Spain but obviously there must be constitutional changes in Madrid that will give greater weight to the regional entities -this would be a better way for Catalonia to drive change across Spain and keep the country tambien.. Like making the Upper house the Chamber of the Regions and Nationalities. A similar need maybe in UK with this Scotland issue. As for Fascism – I think that means many different things to different people. Nothing wrong with a strong state as long as it is interactive with people and not an Elected Dictatorship and there is this problem in other countries too -where War can declared by one individual without the consent of the people amongst other things like legalising Gay Marriage contrary to the faiths but not giving Civil Partnership to all -a much better idea to my mind ( marriage in a ‘faith’ could always be there for those .who comply with it) How might change be brought about without people getting hurt in the streets -I don’t read the Spanish papers enough to know if there are any alternative proposals to address the apparent remoteness of Central Government whatever its political colour from time to time.

  • #118219
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    @Ptr wrote:

    As for Fascism – I think that means many different things to different people. Nothing wrong with a strong state as long as it is interactive with people and not an Elected Dictatorship and there is this problem in other countries too -where War can declared by one individual without the consent of the people amongst other things like legalising Gay Marriage contrary to the faiths but not giving Civil Partnership to all -a much better idea to my mind ( marriage in a ‘faith’ could always be there for those .who comply with it)

    The Oxford Dictionary succinctly defines fascism:

    an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.

    It goes on to use this as an example:

    The term Fascism was first used of the totalitarian right-wing nationalist regime of Mussolini in Italy (1922โ€“43), and the regimes of the Nazis in Germany and Franco in Spain were also fascist. Fascism tends to include a belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group, a contempt for democracy, an insistence on obedience to a powerful leader, and a strong demagogic approach

    From your post, it appears that if this type of government was consistent with your faith it is OK.

    As for ‘gay marriage’ as you call it, the lowest level of support amongst Spaniards still had more than 60% of all Spaniards supporting same-sex marriage. This in spite of the drastic efforts by the Catholic Church, the very ‘faith’ that was aligned with the fascist dictator Franco, to thwart efforts to legalize same-sex marriage.

    Regardless, your analogy of using same-sex marriage was more of a ‘cheap shot’ than thoughtful discussion regarding fascism and the efforts for Catalan independence.

  • #118220
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Always good to read opposing views -I know you don’t like Franco -I only went to Spain in the late Franco years when it was decaying but these were those times when there was also Communism to be reckoned with not benign either! Could not find any positive ideas there though Gary ? ! But Fascism -is a word -its a configuration of letters implying a meaning as separate from other meanings and the Oxford Dictionary is an authority however succinct it can ever be. But I cannot see any advocacy of authoritarianism in that post -‘strong state’ – is not the same thing – ‘interactive with the people not an Elected Dictatorship’ -similarly. As for Gay Marriage I don’t think any of the faiths approve of it. But if you want to get married in a Church and you subscribe to the rules of the faith who should stop you. And indeed if your marriage is not consummated it can be annulled. -that is its purpose without the Oxford Dictionary ! But many couples straight homosexual or simply living together want civil relationships who want nothing to do with any religion/faith at all and why not ? In UK we have C of E in Iran Allah Ackba -what on earth have any of them got to do with the proper running of a modern state. And as you know I think Spain should stay tambien and get over this malaise much-easier as Madrid is centrally located than it is in UK with London placed in the south -east of England. But the problem has to be addressed in Madrid -its not sufficient to say secession is illegal and leave it at that -it has to be resolved – muy buenos tambien pero no separado !

  • #118221
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    When I get off the train at Cerbere I know I am in France – when I get off the train in Port Bou I know I am in Spain but I sense France is not far -its Europe. When in Alicante I feel its Spain and a little less European. When near Malaga -not recently I know I am still in Spain and its still Europe but know Arabia is not far. When I first went to canaries to Las Palmas 30years ago and until recently not much since – it was Spanish and very European with a touch of Africa -it is Africa -you feel it a little more now. I think a strong Spain is part of the cohesion of Europe -if we break up the components we weaken the whole and we must remember the blood shed in its making and with so much will of some who made it and not to give away so easily and become the vanquished !

  • #118222
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    Again, I’m not taking sides in the independence debate. But to address your question about Franco and anything ‘positive’, I’m reminded of what the first US envoy to France, who happened to love France, had to say:

    Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

    –Benjamin Franklin, 1759

  • #118223
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Andrew, you appear to have enough family/historical credentials to have joined the chain, but Fuengirola is a bit of a trot from Barcelona ๐Ÿ˜‰ :mrgreen:

  • #118226
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @garysfbcn wrote:

    I didn’t participate in ‘the wall.’ I’m staying out of the issue regarding the actual decision because I don’t want to be a meddling foreigner. But I readily involve myself when I see a load of crap labeled as being news or valid opinion.

    you might as well, most catalans (not all of course but a good chunk) are only first or second generations, most having come from andalucia!

    @garysfbcn wrote:

    And I will continue to state this: If the central government of Spain and/or the rest of Spain had ’embraced’ the wonderful cultural aspects of Catalunya, had they endeavored to understand why Catalans banned bullfighting (instead of making fun of them or even trying to overrule the ban),

    because they (catalan political parties) said it was inhumane! Yet alot of local traditions that are cruel (setting fire to the horns i beleive is one) is still legal.

    @garysfbcn wrote:

    if they demonstrated that they do not prefer fascism to Catalan independence, if they showed one ounce of gratitude to the Catalan economy that actually funds other ‘welfare’ regions of Spain, the vast majority of Catalans would not entertain a referendum about independence.

    [/quote]

    ‘They’ as in the rest of Spain, do not generally support fascism. At least down south. Some in the PP do, and realistically the article was in reference to the blue division. They were not so much ‘pro-nazi’ but anti-communist. Proud history, with the no record of atrocities and thought bravely. Also volunteers. Unfortunately on the same side a the nazies. And supported from spain by a brutal government.

    Also most of the industry in Catalonia, was not simply created by the catalans. Leaving aside its merchantilist (by spanish standards) history. A lot of the industry there was due to policies of the franco era.

    I personally have no problem with the governmental structure of spain changing to become more federalist, as seen in previous constitutions, but I see a bit of hypocrisy that many of these politicians says its unfair that we support the welfare state of other regions, yet expect to tax individuals for same purpose.

    @angie wrote:

    Andrew, you appear to have enough family/historical credentials to have joined the chain, but Fuengirola is a bit of a trot from Barcelona ๐Ÿ˜‰ :mrgreen:

    Probably would not fit in, I’m still waiting for the European Federation to get created…..

  • #118227
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Just on their stance supporting Gib, I might fly over and join their next chain flying the Gibraltar flag, and I’m not Catalan, ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • #118228
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Just on their stance supporting Gib, I might fly over and join their next chain flying the Gibraltar flag, and I’m not Catalan, ๐Ÿ˜‰

    could always fly the andalucian independence flag!

  • #118229
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Why? ๐Ÿ˜•

    It’s the Catalans supporting Gib ๐Ÿ™„

    Happy to fly the Andalucians’ flag if they do the same ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #118230
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    @fuengi wrote:

    @garysfbcn wrote:
    And I will continue to state this: If the central government of Spain and/or the rest of Spain had ’embraced’ the wonderful cultural aspects of Catalunya, had they endeavored to understand why Catalans banned bullfighting (instead of making fun of them or even trying to overrule the ban),

    because they (catalan political parties) said it was inhumane! Yet alot of local traditions that are cruel (setting fire to the horns i beleive is one) is still legal.

    For the love of all things good in the world, every journey starts with the first step. With attitudes like yours, why should anyone bother trying to fix anything?
    @fuengi wrote:

    @garysfbcn wrote:
    if they demonstrated that they do not prefer fascism to Catalan independence, if they showed one ounce of gratitude to the Catalan economy that actually funds other ‘welfare’ regions of Spain, the vast majority of Catalans would not entertain a referendum about independence.

    They were not so much ‘pro-nazi’ but anti-communist. Proud history, with the no record of atrocities and thought bravely. Also volunteers. Unfortunately on the same side a the nazies. And supported from spain by a brutal government.

    Regardless of the ‘blue division’, thousands of atrocities were committed under Franco. Are those who want to ‘find the positive’ with Franco also going to find the positive in Hitler, the Plague and haggis? ๐Ÿ˜€ @fuengi wrote:

    Also most of the industry in Catalonia, was not simply created by the catalans. Leaving aside its merchantilist (by spanish standards) history. A lot of the industry there was due to policies of the franco era.

    Leaving aside it merchantilist? Why would anyone do that?
    @fuengi wrote:

    I personally have no problem with the governmental structure of spain changing to become more federalist, as seen in previous constitutions, but I see a bit of hypocrisy that many of these politicians says its unfair that we support the welfare state of other regions, yet expect to tax individuals for same purpose.

    Catalan politicians asking why they should be paying for a closed airport in another region when the Catalans are incurring debt is not asking to tax individuals for the same purpose.

  • #118231
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @garysfbcn wrote:

    For the love of all things good in the world, every journey starts with the first step. With attitudes like yours, why should anyone bother trying to fix anything?

    I never said it should not be banned, but you took about a small step is banning an inhumane activity that was prevalent throughout the entire community, yet not banning several very cruel activities only present in a few municipalities. The banning of bullfighting was motivated by the political independence movement, not for humane reasons.

    @garysfbcn wrote:

    Regardless of the ‘blue division’, thousands of atrocities were committed under Franco. Are those who want to ‘find the positive’ with Franco also going to find the positive in Hitler, the Plague and haggis? ๐Ÿ˜€

    Yes thousands of crimes, were committed under franco. But yes people will find positives, considering these would be subjective opinions and each regime and government tended to benefit certain groups. A catholic who beleived in a centralised state probably thought Franco was great. An socialist athiest not so much….

    @garysfbcn wrote:

    Leaving aside it merchantilist? Why would anyone do that?[/b]

    Because it was in the 16/17 hundreds, the there was kingdom of aragon.
    The current industry is down to autarky (to an extent) and syndicalism.

    [/b]@garysfbcn wrote:

    Catalan politicians asking why they should be paying for a closed airport in another region when the Catalans are incurring debt is not asking to tax individuals for the same purpose.

    they are not paying for closed airports. unless i am mistaken, if so please supplies sources.
    Catalan regions earns 100, after tax they get to spend 80
    Individual earns 100 after tax gets to spend 80

    Catalans are running into debt because they are not reigning in their debt. Instead of trying to, they instead shift the blame to the central government stating if we did not have to help the poorer regions of Spain we would be better off.
    Personally I think the % paid by each community should be reviewed, as there are several interesting models in Europe. But Catalonia got itself into this problem and in typical (generalizing here) Spanish attitude are trying to blame everyone but themselves.

  • #118232
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Why? ๐Ÿ˜•

    It’s the Catalans supporting Gib ๐Ÿ™„

    Happy to fly the Andalucians’ flag if they do the same ๐Ÿ˜†

    why not? if you are going to support separitism, why not Andalucias? They suffered more under Franco than most regions, culturally are more distinctive and it would be funny to see how the Catalans would react.

  • #118233
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I don’t get your argument Andrew at all, is there something more behind it, or just a misunderstanding? ๐Ÿ˜ฎ ๐Ÿ˜•

    I posted the topic about Catalonia not Andalucia, what don’t you understand? ๐Ÿ˜•

    This was highlighted in the news unless you missed it, up to 1.6 million Catalans may have taken part, no small amount. The fact that the Catalans have now decided to support Gibraltar on it’s dispute with bully boys Spanish Gov’t and their old chestnut to deflect attention from their own crimes, this move on their part is why I made the comment in jest about joining their next chain, it was you who said your uncle was a political figure in Esquerra Republicana and your father was from Barcelona with your green face :mrgreen: . I never even mentioned Franco nor Andalucia, it was all about the news article, get it? ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜ก

    Have you lost your sense of humour ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #118234
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    I don’t get your argument Andrew at all, is there something more behind it, or just a misunderstanding? ๐Ÿ˜ฎ ๐Ÿ˜•

    I posted the topic about Catalonia not Andalucia, what don’t you understand? ๐Ÿ˜•

    This was highlighted in the news unless you missed it, up to 1.6 million Catalans may have taken part, no small amount. The fact that the Catalans have now decided to support Gibraltar on it’s dispute with bully boys Spanish Gov’t and their old chestnut to deflect attention from their own crimes, this move on their part is why I made the comment in jest about joining their next chain, it was you who said your uncle was a political figure in Esquerra Republicana and your father was from Barcelona with your green face :mrgreen: . I never even mentioned Franco nor Andalucia, it was all about the news article, get it? ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜ก

    Have you lost your sense of humour ๐Ÿ˜†

    Hi Angie, the only comment I was making was based on what you said about being present for the next demo and flying the gib flag at a catalan independence event (as i understood it). My comment was why not fly the andaluz one instead?
    Catalans sided with gib because of the whole ‘the enemy of my enemy is my friend’ idea.

  • #118235
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Andrew, and I said ‘happy to if they supported Gib like Catalonia’ ๐Ÿ™„

    I am well aware of the motive behind Catalonia supporting Gib, it’s the same reason that Spain recently said they would form an alliance with Argentina over the Falklands, the solidarity thing to stir things up as this latest thing has done to Madrid and Government.

    But, because Catalonia have taken this stance, and being pro-Gib staying as it is, I’m happier to support them I think ๐Ÿ˜›

    To be honest, the fact that they managed to get 1.6 million of their supposed 7.5 million out on the streets is highly credible IMO, I wish we could do similar in lethargic UK, the French are pretty good at it too. 8)

    I thought Gary posted an honest opinion of why he wasn’t in ‘the wall’, he is not wishing to be seen as a ‘meddling foreigner’, however I’d have joined in the fun myself had I been there ๐Ÿ˜›

  • #118236
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    well they needed 400,000 people to traverse the entire length of catalonia supposedly. At 1.6 million, they should have made it to fuengirola!!! :mrgreen:

    Gary should have taken part, if he felt motivated to! he’s got the right as much as the next person. Since most of the arguments this time are economical for independence, Gary view is probably more valid as a tax paying property owner!

  • #118237
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    A friend who is a longtime resident of Barcelona hopes that this quote turns into a campaign:

    Catalunya, no te vayas!

    Instead of the threats, etc, by corrupt politicians on all sides of the issue, the issue will be ‘won’ either by communication in popular media or by the sword.

    Right now, outside of Spain, the Catalans are winning the ‘communication battle’ with the Wall or Via videos circulating, contrasted (rightly or wrongly) with the video of the fascist take-over and pepper spraying of the Catalan cultural event.

    Back to my friend’s idea, it would advance the ‘communication battle’ of those who hope that Spain remains intact. Right now, they’ve continued with more idiocy, calling Catalan independence a ‘mutilation’ of Spain, and it is not helping. If their objective is to incite further hatred, and invoke nationalist movements, they are succeeding. If their objective is an amicable solution, they are failing.

  • #118238
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    the sad thing is in general both sides agree things need to change.

    The best options that is agreed upon is a federal style government, as opposed to the unitary state of the moment. And had all ‘historical’ autonomous communities had been better at cooperating in the past, we might not have the issues we have today, instead of the Hodge-podge of special privileges that certain regions have now.

    But for this to happen we need politicians with vision. not the demagogues that seem to be in the news all the time.

  • #118239
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Andrew suggest you contact the author of the numbers who took part, btw, you would need as good as damn it, 1,367,000 people to stretch from Port Bou to Fuengirola at a metre a time, (but why would they want to go there :mrgreen: ) or 580,000 to stretch out along the Catalan coast ๐Ÿ˜† :mrgreen:

  • #118240
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Andrew suggest you contact the author of the numbers who took part, btw, you would need as good as damn it, 1,367,000 people to stretch from Port Bou to Fuengirola at a metre a time, (but why would they want to go there :mrgreen: ) or 580,000 to stretch out along the Catalan coast ๐Ÿ˜† :mrgreen:

    ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #118241
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Is it quiet in the office today Andrew? ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #118243
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Yes a Federal Republic. We might have kept the British Islands together if we had done it in UK in1918 but its much more difficult with so much historically centred on London. Spain could do it so much more easily and the monarchy need not be an issue because it is so good a fit for it with Madrid as capital. I am not sure about Canaries but think Spain more claim than UK in Falklands. As for Gib -there could be a solution -its part of Spain – but its a long term issue with a gradual rapprochement . Who would want the French in the Isle of Wight by whatever ancient treaty and the Gibraltar people and the Spanish get on ok locally if not messed about byMadrid . Its a little Hong Kong problem not to be rushed but ‘understood’. Thanks for opportunity to write my opinion.

  • #118244
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Is it quiet in the office today Andrew? ๐Ÿ˜†

    It was for me! was home with the kids.

  • #118245
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Home with the kids….that’s quiet ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #118257
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    maybe not quiet quiet, but quiet enough to get some ‘daddy time’ (all of 5 minutes…)

  • #118274
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @garysfbcn wrote:

    I didn’t participate in ‘the wall.’ I’m staying out of the issue regarding the actual decision because I don’t want to be a meddling foreigner.

    Maybe you should stick to that line, how would the USA react if you went there with your husband and he started agitating for the breakup of the United States? Deportation – probably.

    Catalan should become independent, outside the EU. Its EU re-entry would be vetoed, of course, by Germany as well as Spain. Import tariff’s on its exports to the EU will close down its factories and have them relocate to Spain.
    Catalan’s wealth is because of its EU membership and long term funding by the EU (Germany, Netherlands, UK etc).

    I can guarantee the EU is not going to stand for little tinpot empires who think they can pick and choose what part of the EU they want.

    The EU was setup precisely to stop nationalistic wars of this sort, they are not going to enable it in any way.

  • #118275
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    @peterhun wrote:

    @garysfbcn wrote:
    I didn’t participate in ‘the wall.’ I’m staying out of the issue regarding the actual decision because I don’t want to be a meddling foreigner.

    Maybe you should stick to that line, how would the USA react if you went there with your husband and he started agitating for the breakup of the United States? Deportation – probably.

    Catalan should become independent, outside the EU. Its EU re-entry would be vetoed, of course, by Germany as well as Spain. Import tariff’s on its exports to the EU will close down its factories and have them relocate to Spain.
    Catalan’s wealth is because of its EU membership and long term funding by the EU (Germany, Netherlands, UK etc).

    I can guarantee the EU is not going to stand for little tinpot empires who think they can pick and choose what part of the EU they want.

    The EU was setup precisely to stop nationalistic wars of this sort, they are not going to enable it in any way.

    It sounds as if you want me to ‘stick to that line’ because you disagree with Catalan independence, and not with me. You also sound like a spiteful person, wishing harm to come to Catalans because you disagree.

    As to your question about my husband, it certainly would depend upon the circumstances. I suspect that while we in the states are a ridiculously reactive lot, we are also a bit more tolerant of a diversity if ideas. Last week, a powerful Republican politician in Texas released a plan for the secession of Texas from the US, and nobody cared.

    Since spending more time in Europe, it has become difficult for me to discern one tinpot empire supporter from another, especially those who think that Franco was not so bad.

  • #118276
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    “You also sound like a spiteful person, wishing harm to come to Catalans because you disagree. “

    Lets be clear here, the Catalans want rob the Spanish and EU of their investment in it. They want to absolve themselves from the debts of the rest of Spain, out of naked self interest. I think they are selfish bastards, even though I have no reason to care about the rest of Spain, so its not my problem.

    ” Last week, a powerful Republican politician in Texas released a plan for the secession of Texas from the US, and nobody cared. “

    They wouldn’t care because he’s a US citizen and has ‘freedom of speech’ in the US. However a foreigner doing it would be rightly viewed as an enemy of the state and deported/shot. The same would apply in any other country such as Spain, you can be excluded for expressing an opinion.

    “Since spending more time in Europe, it has become difficult for me to discern one tinpot empire supporter from another, especially those who think that Franco was not so bad.”

    Yet you apparently support the setting up of the tinpot empire of Catalonia?

  • #118277
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    @peterhun wrote:

    “You also sound like a spiteful person, wishing harm to come to Catalans because you disagree. “

    Lets be clear here, the Catalans want rob the Spanish and EU of their investment in it. They want to absolve themselves from the debts of the rest of Spain, out of naked self interest. I think they are selfish bastards, even though I have no reason to care about the rest of Spain, so its not my problem.

    ” Last week, a powerful Republican politician in Texas released a plan for the secession of Texas from the US, and nobody cared. “

    They wouldn’t care because he’s a US citizen and has ‘freedom of speech’ in the US. However a foreigner doing it would be rightly viewed as an enemy of the state and deported/shot. The same would apply in any other country such as Spain, you can be excluded for expressing an opinion.

    “Since spending more time in Europe, it has become difficult for me to discern one tinpot empire supporter from another, especially those who think that Franco was not so bad.”

    Yet you apparently support the setting up of the tinpot empire of Catalonia?

    You know nothing about the US. Foreigners are not deported nor shot, nor viewed as enemies of the state for supporting a secession movement.

    And I am not taking a position on the Catalan independence. I have written extensively, mostly elsewhere, about how Spain is really idiotic in how they are handling the situation and also, about some of the problems with the independence movement itself, especially if they are going to replace the corrupt governance with another corrupt governance.

    There are many valid reasons why Catalunya should have independence and many more valid reasons why Catalunya should NOT be granted independence. But the most nonsensical is your assertion that “the Catalans want rob the Spanish and EU of their investment in it.”

    Because I view your bitterness and smite as being toxic and not conducive to the exchange of ideas, I will not be conversing any further with you on this topic. Have a good evening.

  • #118279
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    All the opinion polls say that despite the pretence of being ‘nations’ the sole reason Catalonia as Scotland want to secede is for narrow and greedy economic self interest. This is persued by self motivated opportunist politicians with their own greed and egotism the sole motivation. They care neither for their own people for their country or for Europe. Both Caytalonia and( Scotland especially by treacherous Scotch Labour politician that Queen Elizabeth I would have rightly sent to the Tower) have already far too generous devolution that has let these scum politicians think they can usurp their countries for their own greed. But the Government in Madrid is not without blame -they should send in the troops and neutralise the terrorist usurping politicians as they should in Scotland. The European Parliament should warn these people that they will be on their own ready for invasion by swarming Asiatic peoples when they are cast out of Europe into the darkness !!!! This is no light hearted matter -they do not realise their fate when vanquished by the hoardes from the East and from the Moslem heartlands waiting to Sultanise their province as they once tried centuries ago and were only eventually expelled with the vast loss of blood of the patriots !!!!!!

  • #118281
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    @Ptr wrote:

    The European Parliament should warn these people that they will be on their own ready for invasion by swarming yellow peoples from China and Asia when they are cast out of Europe into the darkness !!!! This is no light hearted matter -they do not realise their fate when vanquished by the hoardes from the East and from the Moslem heartlands waiting to Sultanise their province as they once tried centuries ago and were only eventually expelled with the vast loss of blood of the patriots !!!!!!

    Thanks for providing yet another example that Europe still has a lot of work to do to eradicate racism, such as the content of your post. “Swarming yellow peoples”? You mean “swarming” like insects? Is that how you see Asians? I’m not going to bother addressing your twisted view of Islam, nor your ignorance of history.

    Disgusting and disappointing.

  • #118285
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The word I used Gary was ‘peoples’. We have weak population growth in Europe but for the immigration from Asia and Africa.. Now some people welcome this as providing extra workers and new economic activity in otherwise depressed areas.. This is at the expense of changing and destroying the essence of what is Europe. Just take Benidorm-I choose it because it is well known as a tourist destination -so many of the shops are run by Chinese squeezing out the Spanish. As for Islam -its more than a religion -its a culture and it is not compatible with European nations with a Christian heritage. The important thing to remember is that Islam EXCLUDES Christianity. In Egypt churches are looted and burnt today and don’t forget what they did to Spain when they invaded it and held it for several centuries until they were expelled. The problem with the Christian democracies of Europe is we have never been asked in referendums to accept the multi culturall societies -In every European country a vast majority would vote against. Angela Merkel said not long ago multi-culturalism had FAILED. It is not a matter of race -Europe should be Europe Asia -Asia and Africa- Africa. Also never think that racism is a European ‘predjudice’ If you have worked for other races in the UK you will know they are in the way they employ people and pay people far more racist whenever they have the opportunity to get away with it they favour their own and we are at the bottom the pile. .Then you have pure nationalism -you have it in Spain you have it in France -you have it in Germany -the idea of Europe is that we join together to share and preserve our common heritage -the idea was never to dilute it absorbing Asians and African economic migrants with first loyalty to an Ayatolla in Mecca .

  • #118289
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    “You know nothing about the US. Foreigners are not deported nor shot, nor viewed as enemies of the state for supporting a secession movement. “

    I am quite correct in saying that non US citizens have no rights whatsoever and can be arrested, held indefinitely, tortured and rendered abroad with no recourse to any legal process. But foreigners visiting the UK and other counties have few rights, so its no a specific criticism of the US.

    “Thanks for providing yet another example that Europe still has a lot of work to do to eradicate racism,”

    As revolting as his opinions are, they are by no means a European only phenomenon. You have rednecks, need I say more?
    Catalans demand for independence is nationalistic, racist – basically fascist – yet you apparently hate that and at the same time support it. Very odd; let me guess your husband is a supporter and you are going along with it.

  • #118292
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    OK, last post for me on a thread that is going in several directions:

    My husband is not Catalan and he is not supportive of the independence movement. I am interested for several reasons: I now have a home here; the Catalan culture has been suppressed (for crying out loud let them speak/teach any language they choose – it isn’t a big deal); I specialize in social media marketing and this is very much a ‘communications fight’ and it is interesting to me to see how each side deals with this.

    Of course there are Catalan nationalists within this movement. But projecting that all who want independence are nationalists is like saying that all Catholic priests are child molesters: It is not true. And frankly, the Catalans would have to do some really despicable things to equal their Spanish nationalists.

    In the US, foreigners, even those who enter illegally, have rights:

    “The Bill of Rights does not grant foreigners the right to enter the United States, but once here, immigrants are entitled to certain broad constitutional protections. Due Process โ€” the right to be treated fairly, whether in a deportation hearing or a criminal court proceeding โ€” applies to every person within U.S. borders. And Equal Protection prohibits discrimination based on race or national origin. An alien’s rights to free speech and religious freedom are protected under the First Amendment. The Refugee Act of 1980 gives certain aliens the right to political asylum in the U.S.”

    Secession in the US is seen as treason by some and not by others. Our US Constitution is unique in that it guarantees us the right to overthrow our own government – that is why, in part, we have such liberal gun laws. Talk of secession is very common and NOBODY has been arrested or gone to jail, been deported for such talk in more than 100 years.

    Regardless, a State can vote to secede and then choose to use Constitutionally legal means, such as petitioning Congress, to become independent from the US. Would it work? I have no idea. But my point is that nobody gets deported or shot for advocating secession.

    I agree that there is racism in the US. It appears worse in Europe. Excluding London, is appears that immigrants rarely enter the middle classes outside of their own ghettos. I realize that there are rednecks in the US. But I was conversing on a forum about Spanish real estate and made assumptions.

  • #118331
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @garysfbcn wrote:

    Of course there are Catalan nationalists within this movement. But projecting that all who want independence are nationalists is like saying that all Catholic priests are child molesters: It is not true. And frankly, the Catalans would have to do some really despicable things to equal their Spanish nationalists.

    Like the banning of a language in school and forcing everyone to learn the one the government supports? or banning cultural traditions that are not supported by the majority? :mrgreen:

  • #118707
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I did not join the chain but like many of the Spanish people living in Cataluรฑa watched it on TV,without making a comment as it is not a subject that one feels free to talk against without being told by a nationalist to get back to your own country… be that country the UK or Spain.

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