What if Spain copied France?

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This topic contains 75 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of DBMarcos99 DBMarcos99 4 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #56895
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    France is planning to increase tax on rent of British/Foreign owned holiday homes, and, massively hike the rate of Capital Gains Tax on them if sold. The UK is going to challenge this though.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-216872 … ax-1m.html

    If France get away with this will Spain copy this move? Will it be stopped by the EU?

    If allowed to happen, surely this will mean Brits and others will not want to buy homes in France and wherever else it’s introduced! ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110071
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    In my exprience. Spain & Italy follows France when it comes to taxation, paper chase, labour/union laws i.e. left wing policies.

    A good example is the use of Notaries. ( to the best of my knowledge a system set buy/during the Nepolian period.) I stand corrected if I am wrong.

  • #110073
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    If this happens in spain it will be a very long time before the property market recovers if ever and will see a lot of abandoned property left to ruin

  • #110076
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    If Rajoy had any brain then he’d realise that nobody in Spain has any capital gains left to be taxed anyway, and nobody declares their rental income either, so he might as well remove those taxes and make Spanish property appear more attractive to foreigners than French property. So I fully expect him to follow the French and increase taxes.

  • #110077
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    sorry, but no way are the PP going to implement similar legislation in Spain.

    the PP are in the difficult position of trying implement the right changes, but have to tread carefully due to the unions (functionaries most of them…) and the PSOE

  • #110078
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    From July 1, they will be liable for a 15.5 per cent tax on income from renting their property, and 15.5 per cent on any profits made from selling it.

    Maybe it is because I live in a country without a VAT, but these taxes don’t seem extreme. Don’t all tourists pay ridiculously-high taxes on hotel rooms? If so, it is reasonable that the same tax apply to holiday rentals.

  • #110079
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @garysfbcn wrote:

    From July 1, they will be liable for a 15.5 per cent tax on income from renting their property, and 15.5 per cent on any profits made from selling it.

    Maybe it is because I live in a country without a VAT, but these taxes don’t seem extreme. Don’t all tourists pay ridiculously-high taxes on hotel rooms? If so, it is reasonable that the same tax apply to holiday rentals.

    The figures I heard were 35.5% on rental income and 34.5 CGT:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/offshorefinance/9377307/Francois-Hollande-announces-French-tax-grab-on-holiday-homes.html

  • #110080
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    The figures I heard were 35.5% on rental income and 34.5 CGT:

    Which is a more credible source – The Telegraph or the Daily Mail?

  • #110081
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @garysfbcn wrote:

    The figures I heard were 35.5% on rental income and 34.5 CGT:

    Which is a more credible source – The Telegraph or the Daily Mail?

    who do you trust more Satan or The Devil

    (at least in reference to anything european)

  • #110083
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    If Spain had brain & vision it would not have built so many properties & also apologised to Mr & Mrs Prior and did it in a very overt manner in order to create confidence with the overseas buyers.

  • #110095
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    You’re quite right shakeel, but ‘the black Iberian pig will fly’ before Spain apologises to anyone over their property debacle ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

  • #110096
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @angie. while I appreciate that most Brits needs an apology in connection with their property dealings. The Spanish & French just do not apologise as they feel its beneath them to do so.

    When I discuss with them that it shows signs of maturity, humality & acceptance that as we all make mistake it is magnamous to do so. Que is the expression.

    After all if they did not make a mistake they did have to go for confession !!!.

  • #110101
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    The figures in The Telegraph that Chopera posted are correct. Hollande has also plans to set income tax to 75% for those who earn over โ‚ฌ100.000k, increases on inheritance tax which is currently 30% after allowances and property taxes.

    Hollande has actually said “I hate the rich” and “it’s business that got us into this mess”.

    I wonder how he thinks France can recover from recession if he keep clobbering enterprise and incentive. The Unions of course are cheering from the side lines and slapping him on the back.

    No modern economy in the last century ever recovered from what is high confiscatory taxes. It’s a disaster for France.

  • #110102
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @chopera wrote:

    If Rajoy had any brain then he’d realise that nobody in Spain has any capital gains left to be taxed anyway, and nobody declares their rental income either,

    Of course.

    In France they tax you on the rental income you should have received, so you can declare it or not, you still pay the tax on it.

    Spain already does this with fake valuations, so it won’t be a problem to extend it to capital gains.

  • #110104
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    I’m sure everything here appreciated this in the daily mail article:


    Much of France’s new taxes will be spent on hiring 150,000 more public servants to help promote ‘a more competitive industry’.



    ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110108
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    [quote=”


    Much of France’s new taxes will be spent on hiring 150,000 more public servants to help promote ‘a more competitive industry’.


    [/quote]

    Doh! ๐Ÿ™ There’s already 8 million of ’em. I’m now looking for ways of escape, love the country, detest the system. The problem is there are few civilized countries left with a decent climate that don’t lacerate your assets or income.

    USA – exorbitant health care costs and property taxes.
    Monaco – Too expensive.
    Andorra – Too cold
    San Marino – It’s Italy, enough said.
    Jersey – Possible but expensive.
    Gibraltar – Claustrophobic, dirty.
    Cayman Island – Too far and too dodgy.
    Australia – Full of flys, bugs and Australians ๐Ÿ˜€
    New Zealand – Too far and dull.
    Poland – Too cold.
    Spain – Not on your life.
    UK – Now there’s an idea. ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110109
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    Canada maybe?

  • #110116
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I understand though that the French give generous rebates on CGT -previously you paid no CGT if you have kept the property for 30 years. This is now reduced to 22 years with offsets beginning from year 2. So my impression from the Telegraph article was this is not bad news for the long term retiree only the short term speculator .The news from the EU about the Inheritence Taxes in Spain for Non Residents is probably going to mean an improvement for Uk owners in Spain.

  • #110117
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    It’s actually 15 years of ownership Ptr. Hollande plans to increase it.

    Canada – too cold.

  • #110123
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Better stay where you are Logan ๐Ÿ˜€

    I loved New Zealand, not boring at all if you like an outdoor life. What about Lisbon, we recently had a weekend there and it was very nice. I love Italy and the food, I could live in Ravello and Rudolph Nureyev’s old house on the Island off Positano. Have to change the decor a bit though ๐Ÿ˜†

    http://sunshinebeachhouse.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/li-galli-island-rudolph-nureyevs-former.html

  • #110124
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Thanks katy, I love Italy and the Amalfi, Sicily too. Have some family there. I have been up and down the entire country, Rome, Florence, Abruzzi, Tuscany,Napoli, Venice. Wonderful. Been conned, ripped off and cheated. That’s Italy and when it happens you smile. I know no other place you feel like doing that. ๐Ÿ™‚

    However to live there on a fiscal basis, never.

    I guess sometimes it’s best to simply wrestle with the devil you know. Hollande will make a balls of running France and it’s only five years. 8)

  • #110126
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “Much of France’s new taxes will be spent on hiring 150,000 more public servants to help promote ‘a more competitive industry”.

    Here is a contradiction if I have ever heard. Civil servents competative !!!!!!!!!!

  • #110128
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    Looks like the Spanish government is considering giving automatic residency to anyone who pays more than โ‚ฌ250k for a property:

    http://www.idealista.com/news/archivo/2012/07/06/0482417-gobierno-estudia-cambios-en-la-ley-de-extranjeria-dar-salida-al-stock-inmobiliario?xtor=EPR-76-%5Bboletin_20120706%5D-20120706-%5Bnoticias__2%5D-%5B%5D-%5B%5D

    (not sure they’ve really thought that one through)

  • #110130
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    A bit like Panama and some other 3rd world countries ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110131
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    What an incentive chopera, spend 250k euros on a property that likely to devalue even more according to most economists/experts and get automatic residency, hm so you’re stuck with your debt asset and in their clutches for all kinds of add on costs and taxes ๐Ÿ™„

    I read that Spanish banks are overvaluing properties on their books by 40% and then giving 100% 50 year mortgages on same properties, sounds crazy and crooked to me ๐Ÿ˜ก

    Logan, my father’s family come from Sicily and East Coast USA, I think it’s one reason we never let go of Ocean Estates and others who tried scamming us, this background also gave us an accute sense of smell, hence we could smell bullshit from miles away even when those naughty commercial posters and their cronies creep on here and try to shut us up etc ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110132
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan “However to live there on a fiscal basis, never “
    Can you please expand to my knowledge. No CGT after five years of ownership & No inheritance tax .

  • #110136
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    That is what they did in Canada, but in Canada was 500,000 to get a residency, now 1/2 of Asia moved there ๐Ÿ˜€

  • #110137
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I will be glad if the Asian and others move in as they will change the culture tpowards hard work business ethics.

    I use the chinese shops to buy things when shops are closed in the afteroon, evening, weekends & the fiesta days. Bring it on. Only these people can change Spain the Politicians & the unions will never.

  • #110138
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @shakeel wrote:

    @logan “However to live there on a fiscal basis, never “
    Can you please expand to my knowledge. No CGT after five years of ownership & No inheritance tax .

    Italy is very bureaucratic. My relatives tell me the tax man constantly has his hand in their pockets. However I guess the difference is tax evasion is a national pastime and almost regarded as a rite of passage.

    Once when travelling in Rome a complete stranger on a bus gave me instructions how to ride all day on Romes transport system without paying a cent. ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

  • #110139
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Logan. The reasons that you have given above are good enough reason to live there. The government can still run a transport system where the fare are cheap and evasion is alive & well. Should we not look at the cost of moving around in UK ????

    In conclusion, No Capital gains/inhertance tax, free travel pensionor or not, lovely food & fine, friendy people, fantastic clothes & shoes. Hey wake up and smell the Capucchino !!!!!

  • #110152
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    It’s a VI site, but this guy nails why Spain is becoming a more attractive place to live than France –Link removed–

    Another few things I have noticed here in France. Menu del Dia, average 15 euros compared with around 9 or 10 in Spain. Coffee almost double the price of Spain. Weather, letโ€™s just say not as good. However, on the plus side, France is a lot neater than Spain, more well tended and the crisis is less noticeable although being on the coast just over the border it is can be seen that not all shops are rented out for the summer which before the crisis would have been inconceivable in a resort such as this.

    So if your property is cheaper in Spain, your taxes are lower, your cost of living is less and the weather is better wouldnโ€™t you be better upgrading your lifestyle to Spain? We could say that you would be taking advantage of the bad economic situation in Spain but I prefer to look at it in a different way, you are helping one of your neighbors survive a crisis brought on by irresponsible banks and politicians the world over. At the same time you are giving yourself a much better quality of life.

    Of course it isn’t just about avoiding yet another washout summer. But the retirement in Spain option is looking ever stronger – add in the strengthening pound and lower Spanish property prices, and it’s getting to be a no-brainer. People tell me the cost of healthcare is rising in Spain (that’s my main concern) but let’s face it the free nhs will disappear soon in the UK too – they have 300 billion pfi blackholes to pay for! – http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jul/05/pfi-cost-300bn

    Renting as an alternative? Well if rents are guaranteed to stay low for years, that would be ok. But I feel we have some major inflation being stoked up by all this QE and pumping money into banks. Once you have a place to live in that you own, you don’t have to worry so much about inflation. My partner and I are both making moves to earn our current living from the web, so we may even move earlier than retirement age. 8)

  • #110153
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Moving is not just about the price of coffee and the bargain properties. Spain is suffering from a cutback in services. Lack of equipment for schools, nurseries having to be double financed by parents because some provinces aren’t paying their debts. Health services being cut, waiting lists rising. All these have to be factured in when moving…unless you are buying a holiday home.

    If you are going to compare France with Spain there needs to be something more credibile than an unkown spanish property website!

  • #110154
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    Not sure why nursery costs would affect retirement plans โ“
    But the point is the UK will be cutting sevices too – there is just too much debt coming into play from PFI

    Last week, South London Healthcare Trust, which runs three hospitals in south-east London, was placed in administration by the health secretary as it struggled to meet the cost of its PFI obligations.
    Dave Prentis, general secretary of the union Unison, said on Thursday night: “The NHS is just the start of the story.
    “We’re sitting on a PFI debt time bomb, and the sheer scale of the burden paints a seriously grim picture for the future of our public services.”
    PFI had left the UK with a “staggering mountain of debt,” Prentis said.

    Anyway Katy, when a small flat where we currently live costs ยฃ200k, but I can get one in Spain for ยฃ30k, or when a beer or wine when we pop out costs ยฃ4 compared to ยฃ1 in Spain (ok so the measure is smaller but we don’t drink that fast anyway), plus a generally better climate, it all comes together. Of course we could find cheap places in the north of england, but my bh tells me she needs sun in summer! The one concern as I mentioned above is the healthcare issue, but that will soon be a big concern in the UK too. I know no-one who believes it will be in its current format in 5-10 years time. Too much money will be diverted to pay for the PFI idiocies from the previous govt.

  • #110155
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    What’s stopping you then ๐Ÿ˜€

    I wasn’t just refering to pensioners. Younger families considering moving need nurseries and decent educational facilities for their kids. Not schools that require them to take their own toilet roll…amongst loads of other equipment which they can no longer provide. Also income tax is higher in Spain than the UK for most people so it’s swings and roundabouts. I would really like to see some of those 30,000 houses…and I don’t mean the advert on the web ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110156
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Just 7 months ago, Rightmove, the largest and most used property search portal in the UK were saying British buyers prefer France now than Spain as a place to buy property. 8)

    http://www.nuwireinvestor.com/articles/brit-buyers-prefer-france-to-spain-58477.aspx

    Hollande’s proposed tax on holiday homes might affect this if it goes through, but Spain will follow if so.

    I would agree with that to the point that I think more discerning Brits prefer France and always have done, especially Provence and the South of France in general. Property prices tend to be more stable in Provence, there’s far less of this ugly poorly built mass urbanization in France than in Spain. By discerning Brit, I mean, there are masses of those lager louts who have moved to Spain to live with other Brits, most become so called experts in ‘car repairs’ and a ‘bit of building’ work which they’ve never done in the UK, many have left debts and problems in the UK or are running from crime, divorce, the taxman etc and unpaid bills. You can find them almost everywhere in Spain’s Costas sitting on dirty faded plastic seats outside favourite bars but hardly see them in France ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110157
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    I’ve worked previously in Spain, and to be honest the Brits I usually came across were higher educated than the average- it has to be said though this was in Madrid, and most had gone there for better job opportunities or to learn Spanish rather than the climate. Since we are likely to either go somehere like Valencia or even Madrid (if we choose the urban option) or a place, in the north, it’s unlikely we’ll end up next to Angie’s old neighbours (you did have a place on the costas didn’t you?). But yes I suppose we could end up near a resort if prices are low enough.

    You can find them almost everywhere in Spain’s Costas sitting on dirty faded plastic seats outside favourite bars but hardly see them in France

    Obviously not if it’s chucking down with rain!

  • #110158
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    You can’t compare Madrid to the Costas, not even the Brits there, and that goes for most Spanish cities compared to the Southern Costas.

    Our neighbours and friends BTW were Spanish and Portuguese, plus an English lawyer, none of the types I referred to earlier, that said everywhere we went there were the customary shaven headed Brits sitting on plastic, with their tattoos, ear rings, studs, Union Jack shorts and then there were their wives too : ๐Ÿ˜†

    However, back to France v Spain, I’d wager there’s many 1000’s more of the oiks living in Spain in British enclaves because they feel ‘comfortable’ and won’t bother to learn Spanish all doing ‘cash’ jobs and driving their un-registered UK cars hoping not to be caught out, all getting p—-d every night in their local in Brit bar in Spain and shopping at Iceland.

    Climate in the South of France is better than in the UK hence British Royalty and Aristocracy often over-Wintered there.

    I would trust Rightmove info over an estate agent based in Valencia any day, you would not lose anything like the losses occurred in Spain : ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • #110159
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I have to say there is a marked difference between the British in France and Italy to the ones on the spanish costas. It did used to be the same in Spain and it has gradually gone downhill from retired middles classes and a few young business professionals to what is actually there today…a rabble of the type in only Fools and Horses…a bit of hustling, painting, airport runs whatever. At the worst drug dealing!

  • #110160
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Picture this, a fact for sure!

    Charter or no frills flight to Malaga, Alicante or Murcia. I can say with certainty that 90% will be the aforementioned British slapheads as they are known (shaven headed geezers) and their blingy wives. ๐Ÿ˜† One time property boom Spain!

    Agents’ British sales guys, spiky head wide boys (often Northern) and girls (in boom days) Early Spain was much nicer ๐Ÿ˜›

    Charter or no frills to Nice, Perpignan or say Funchal (Madeira), 90%+ respectable middle to upper class British. 8) Normal property market! Same planes and airlines.

    Agents’ French or British or Madeiran sales ‘personnel’ even in buoyant days.

    There is a difference and it shows, although Pil Pil is very much liked by me ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • #110161
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    I can’t see Angie’s point really. If I end up living in a place in Valencia or Pamplona, who cares what the social make-up of a charter plane is? Plenty of stag nights heading to Paris, Prague or Liga, as well as Marbella. Unless you are flying with them every week, who cares?
    Incidentally I laugh when people try to tell me Spain was better 20-30 years ago. You still had your Benidorms, Magalufs and Torremolinos in the 80s. Not that there’s anything wrong with folk who enjoy those places. Just not for me.

  • #110162
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    My point is simply the make up of the typical visitor or home seeker from the UK to these other countries. ๐Ÿ™„

    You may choose somewhere in Spain you prefer to live and you may not be affected by the horde of Costa Brits, that’s your decision. Spain has far more because those Costas have become ‘little Britains’ for many, and, IMO have spoilt much of Spain. I’ve already said you can’t compare Spanish Cities generally nor the countryside to these urbanised British inhabited enclaves.

    Yes, even the Costa del Sol was once an attractive area with avocado farms and green hill sides and mountain tops, now sliced off for the sake of ugly sprawl. It was better 20-30 years ago, I used to visit then.

    If Brits wanted the disco, bar, all night scene they went to the places you mentioned in Spain, I don’t recall that scene in the South of France except San Tropez for example, and they weren’t the lager louts.

    As katy says, if you want to live in Spain then why not go ahead and before your prediction of the imminent break up of the NHS, I might put some money on that not happening BTW, and how much will health care cost in Spain and the Eurozone for expat Brits under pensionable age? Thank God the UK didn’t adopt the Euro, it’s bad enough without that constantly patched up failure ๐Ÿ™„

    I also love serrano ham (my favourite ham, yes, really) as well as Pil Pil, also Rioja Cran Reserva (my favourite wine) and Navarra wine too ๐Ÿ˜› All Spanish too ๐Ÿ˜›

  • #110163
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Angie you forgot the nose/belly rings and the 5 pierced ears…oh not to mention the tattoos. Once met friends in Fuengirola for a meal in Fish Alley. One Brit guy at a nearby table had the WHOLE of his head tattooed. No wonder the Spaniards hate us ๐Ÿ˜ฅ

  • #110164
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    Well Angie and Katy are trying hard to convince me (and others here) that Spain’s not a good place to live (or even visit) because of the tattooed, shaven headed Brits… so why are they back in the mothership?? ๐Ÿ˜†
    Even in England you can avoid (most of the time) certain rough Brit elements, so I think it can be done in Spain!

  • #110165
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Not tattoo head katy, he was on Crimewatch recently, rumours are he fled to Spain so he could merge in with the other tattooed slapheads, he thought it was the ‘in thing’ in Spain or camouflage. Did he speak Spanish, ‘scuse me amigo mate, Dos Cafe con lecherous, por favor’? ๐Ÿ˜†

    Mind you they are a rare species in Madrid, Barcelona etc quite ‘refained’ really my dear ๐Ÿ™‚

    Not trying to convince you stevie, you’ve convinced yourself already, why don’t you move away from the mothership then and immerse yourself in what you really want:lol: ๐Ÿ˜† Think this all started with your commercial plug above ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110166
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I hear people do get paid for putting links on forums…such as someones pork pies in Madrid etc. No ones offered me a job ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110167
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    Just admit you’ve lost the plot Katy! (please don’t go to Spain because of the horrid Brits there, stay in Britain- lol !!) I don’t accuse you or Angie of being paid to post links!

  • #110168
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Question for you Stevie, why did you post that commercial plug re the agent in Valencia, the man is clearly pushing property sales on the video, unlike Rightmove’s article which is quoting facts based on numbers of Brits choosing France over Spain?

    I thought commercial plugs were not allowed on here ๐Ÿ™„

    To prove it was commercial as if the adverts and video didn’t already do that, I posted the first comment on their comment form, and guess what, it was deleted by the host, just because I pointed out the niceties of France? ๐Ÿ˜ก

  • #110169
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Question for you Stevie, why did you post that commercial plug re the agent in Valencia, the man is clearly pushing property sales on the video, unlike Rightmove’s article which is quoting facts based on numbers of Brits choosing France over Spain?

    I thought commercial plugs were not allowed on here ๐Ÿ™„

    To prove it was commercial as if the adverts and video didn’t already do that, I posted the first comment on their comment form, and guess what, it was deleted by the host, just because I pointed out the niceties of France? ๐Ÿ˜ก

    Never posted commercial plugs – if it’s a big deal, ask Mark to delete the link, it’s the argument that was made on that page that was relevant to this thread. And extremely good arguments too, hence you two colluding together to divert the argument.

    Strange how both of you resort to bizarre accusations, when you’ve been exposed with an illogical argument (don’t leave Britain for Spain as there are too many Brits there !!!!)
    I have virtually nill talent at marketing skills but even I know that if I wanted to “plug” (in your words) that particular link, I’d do it in far more frequented forums than this one (with respect to Mark).
    So, as I say, if you think the link is inappropriate, merely ask Mark the site administrator, to scrub it. But please, no more of your bizarre accusations! I’m neither an estate agent nor an agent for any other type of business on this site.
    btw I actually welcome lower property values in spain (which an agent wouldn’t). Not only does it make purchases cheaper (hooray!) but it will benefit the economy in the long run. Here’s an article on why the Basque country has done better in the crisis, partly because it hasn’t been over-reliant on tourism and property speculators: http://m.therepublic.com/view/story/BRE85R0K2/US-SPAIN-ECONOMY-BASQUE

    The Basque region’s secret has been in sticking to manufacturing over the property and tourism industries that ended in economic misery elsewhere in Spain when a real estate bubble fuelled by easy credit burst in 2009.

    Edit – I’ve scrubbed the link myself, seeing as it caused Angie so much anguish. ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110170
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Basque region is lovelyvery green ,lost of mountains, people friendly & sincere and not there to partly only. The best food in Spain. Have you ever been to San Sebastaian, Vitoria etc ??

    It was not only the weather, fear of ETA actvities that had kept this area off the mass tourist track.

  • #110171
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    What’s stopping you then ๐Ÿ˜€

    I wasn’t just refering to pensioners. Younger families considering moving need nurseries and decent educational facilities for their kids. Not schools that require them to take their own toilet roll…amongst loads of other equipment which they can no longer provide. Also income tax is higher in Spain than the UK for most people so it’s swings and roundabouts. I would really like to see some of those 30,000 houses…and I don’t mean the advert on the web ๐Ÿ˜†

    When it comes to nurseries and primary education then I’d rather have my kid in the Madrid system (can’t speak for the whole of Spain) than the UK. Also my experience of the health system in Madrid is much better than the UK (I don’t seem to recall outbreaks of super viruses, etc in Spanish hospitals either)

  • #110172
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @shakeel wrote:

    Basque region is lovelyvery green ,lost of mountains, people friendly & sincere and not there to partly only. The best food in Spain. Have you ever been to San Sebastaian, Vitoria etc ??

    It was not only the weather, fear of ETA actvities that had kept this area off the mass tourist track.

    True but it’s also exceedingly expensive.

  • #110174
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    stevie, it’s you who seem so anguished, I merely pointed out that you had posted a commercial topic, and it’s not up to me to tell Mark to delete it, I think you posted it without thinking first ๐Ÿ™„ Calm down dear 8)

    BTW what makes you think it’s a bizarre accusation, did you post a link to an agent in Valencia or not, simple question? Heard of ‘if the cap fits wear it’? I pointed out what you did that’s all. Katy and I have not colluded on this, I think that’s paranoia on your part, the fact that we agree with each other and with logan, dartboy, chopera and others on many things that are wrong with Spain and it’s property market is tough luck if you don’t like it. We also have our differences on some things too, but we generally have a healthy debate ๐Ÿ™‚

    We also are not involved commercially to my knowledge, well I’m not, most of us point out the pitfalls with the property market, the Government, the scammers etc to warn others, there’s nothing in it financially for me nor the others I doubt, and, I don’t hop from one website to another like you do BTW ๐Ÿ˜† Spain has a lot to offer in the country, the food, the weather, many of the people, it’s the southern Costas that have been ruined by the greed of the Government.

    I don’t care nor do I worry about your motives for your posts, you clearly love anything Spain (so move there if you want), I can’t recall you pointing out anything to warn newbies. If you think it’s so much better than the UK and now France, go!

    Meanwhile, I will continue to report facts and the truth where I have knowledge of that and I expect others will to. : ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110176
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Katy is right France and Italy attract the retired educated middle class as well as a certain amount of people seeking to live ‘The Good Life’. By that I mean rural self sufficiency. Many British people live that way in France with cheap agricultural land available and a climate. They are not hippies, many are serious ecologists seeking a greener spiritual experience.

    The truth is most of these people seek more from their lives that sun and cheap booze. Unfortunately the other half of the British personality does and they end up as Katy describes. Anyone who come to live on the coasts of Spain will soon be overrun by them. It’s very difficult to find decent Spanish cooking anymore. An English diet abounds.

    It’s tragic for Spain because the country is about far more than that. It’s also a tribute the the tolerance of the Spanish people that they put up with them so well. Revenue I suppose lies at the back of that.

  • #110177
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant
    angie wrote:
    Picture this, a fact for sure!

    Charter or no frills flight to Malaga, Alicante or Murcia. I can say with certainty that 90% will be the aforementioned British slapheads as they are known (shaven headed geezers) and their blingy wives. ๐Ÿ˜† One time property boom Spain!

    Angie I consider your comment totally out of order, apart from probably Malaga .

    I would say with 99% certainty that I have never seen “slapheads and blingy wives” and those with tatoos, according to Katy, on my frequent flights to and from forementioned latter airports. Indeed all of the people I have met, who have homes here, are intelligent, professional middle class retirees ( but not snobs) mostly from south of UK.

    It is quite obvious that both you and Katy detest Spain with a vengence, and that is your right, however please stick to proven facts.

  • #110178
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    During a recent visit to a Spanish resort town there was a group of young British ‘ladies’ walking down the street clearly the worse for drink.

    Emblazoned across their ample bosoms in a bright pink tee shirt and in huge letters, were written the words – *Slappers on Tour*. ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

  • #110179
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @chopera wrote:

    @katy wrote:
    What’s stopping you then ๐Ÿ˜€

    I wasn’t just refering to pensioners. Younger families considering moving need nurseries and decent educational facilities for their kids. Not schools that require them to take their own toilet roll…amongst loads of other equipment which they can no longer provide. Also income tax is higher in Spain than the UK for most people so it’s swings and roundabouts. I would really like to see some of those 30,000 houses…and I don’t mean the advert on the web ๐Ÿ˜†

    When it comes to nurseries and primary education then I’d rather have my kid in the Madrid system (can’t speak for the whole of Spain) than the UK. Also my experience of the health system in Madrid is much better than the UK (I don’t seem to recall outbreaks of super viruses, etc in Spanish hospitals either)

    Eh…how long have you been in Madrid ๐Ÿ˜ฎ They had a big outbreak of MRSA a few years ago..some died! There has also been an outbreak in Carlos Haya as recent as last month!! Of course, Spanish media isn’t as transparent as the UK. A case of what you don’t know doesn’t hurt you.

  • #110180
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    Obviously a Spanish resort beloved by some Brits ๐Ÿ™„ otherwise the words wouldnยดt be understood, logan.

    Not saying ghastly Brits like this, and other previously mentioned, do not frequent or live in certain well known ,but unmentioned, resorts in Spain unfortunately.
    There are places in UK I prefer not to visit for similar reasons however making carte blanche , unnecessary power of the moment, personal comments about where certain types of people live or go I find objectionable and snobbish in the “nth” degree.

  • #110182
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Melosine you clearly are not a blingy person and would obviously fit into the other 10% of ‘refained’ Brits on board ๐Ÿ™„ However I stand by my comments having witnessed the other 90% on most flights not only to Malaga which BTW you also agree. Flights to Murcia San Javier and Alicante to homes in Torrevieja’s awful mass urbanisations invariably have the larger proportion of lager louts etc Get on a plane to return to Blighty and see the ridiculous amount of chavs still in their shorts and vests even in Winter, they get out at Gatwick for example and freeze, you must be very selective about your flights or just lucky ๐Ÿ˜†

    Have you flown to Nice, Pau, Toulouse, Funchal, Marseilles etc if so you will know what I mean? ๐Ÿ™„

    You confuse us hating Spain with a vengeance, so I suggest you read my posts over the years about what I dislike about Spain and more recently on here, it’s the Southern Costas and Spanish property scams and greed, you don’t seem able to get that! We lived in a largish town 30-40 minutes back from Malaga for nearly a year once, a lovely town once you got into the old centre, only ever met one posh Brit there, knew a few decent other Brits there, but the favourite cafe and bars and industrial Poligono was full of the chavs I’m talking about which totally spoilt the town, Proven Fact! ๐Ÿ™„

    Read my posts about the North of Spain much prettier and less spoilt, the food and wine in Spain, the climate, the ceramics and lots more ๐Ÿ™„

    Then of course I could list loads of people we have helped escape Spanish property problems, and grateful they are too, UK and Irish citizens, so feel we do a good job thank you ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • #110183
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I didn’t mention where I was deliberately. Stigmatizing a particular place doesn’t really help, in any case most people who know Spain’s coast understand the places to avoid. Unfortunately that covers a very wide area. However it is possible to find great resorts with little of the ‘slap head’ element. Usually those places have a high concentration of Spanish people which seems to make a difference.

    If you visit the Cote d’Azur in France or the Italian Riviera you will find another planet in comparison to the ‘slap head’ parts of Spain. Nothing snobbish about it just more attractive and a nicer experience. Horses for courses once more.

  • #110185
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Loved these comments from posters on another site about Murcia and Alicante airports:

    ‘took a Ryanair flight to Murcia, never seen so much Primark in my life, personally, I’d rather pay a bit more to avoid the chavs’

    ‘never seen so much Primark clothing (a theme it seems) tattoed women and shaven headed toothless men together in one place’

    ‘covered in tattoos and piercings and that was the mother’

    IMO if Spain introduced a chav tax immediately:

    (a) would their deficit be wiped out within a year?

    (b) would it make Spain look more green and pleasant?

    (c) would their deficit get worse because less lager would be drunk?

    Now if I was Spanish and hungry, I’d probably start eating the chavs turn them into chav scratchings or similar

    ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110188
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    Keep colluding with Katy, Angie – we’ve all seen in the past the “I’ve sent you a PM” between you two….unless of course you just swap recipes for cup cakes.. ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

    And keep using the nonsensical argument – “you shouldn’t go to Spain because Brit chavs with tattoos wearing Primark clothing may be on a cheap flight that goes there”

    It’s nonsensical because it implies you should leave Britain straight away – after all isn’t that where “Brit chavs” come from?

    Last two flights I took to Spain – Bilbao this Spring, Madrid last Autumn – certainly didn’t contain the characters you describe. I’m sure though I could find similar types in an estate pub down the road here in London.

  • #110190
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Welcome back steviedelux, of course Madrid and Bilbao aren’t the same as those airports mentioned, didn’t you know that? Try and get it in your head that we are talking about the Southern Spanish Costas being ruined, well, the coastal strips! ๐Ÿ™„
    What’s stopping you moving then? ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110192
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Welcome back steviedelux, of course Madrid and Bilbao aren’t the same as those airports mentioned, didn’t you know that? Try and get it in your head that we are talking about the Southern Spanish Costas being ruined, well, the coastal strips! ๐Ÿ™„
    What’s stopping you moving then? ๐Ÿ˜†

    What’s stopping you from leaving Britain and all those tattoed chavs wearing Primark clothing ๐Ÿ™‚

    Don’t worry, you’ll know when I have bought a place. But I won’t be publicising it here beforehand, nor its exact location. Last thing I’d want is a snob moving in next to me. ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • #110195
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    What a funny reply stevie ๐Ÿ˜†

    We like the UK, family close by, not in Eurozone mess etc. We can also go where we please within reason without the worry of what might happen to property prices as the demand outstrips supply in the UK, not enough homes, unlike Spain, where even your pal in Valencia admits there’s 1.6 million unsold new homes, so too much supply, get it? The chavs aren’t generally all in the same areas as you might have noticed more spread out in the UK, whereas they often are together in Spanish resorts in certain Costas as well as those airports mentioned, I thank you ๐Ÿ˜†

    Don’t think people will care when you move nor where your location is either, bet you can’t wait :mrgreen:

  • #110196
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    There are many spanish trailer trash too. I watched the beach area go downhill where we lived in Elviria. It was a mainly Spanish area, probably 25% British, Irish, Germans and Norwegians. July and August was mainly Spanish from the North who owned property in the area. (Men from madrid have the smartest shorts ๐Ÿ™‚ ) Around 2006 things started to change. There was a very expensive chiringuito but always full July/Aug. It was not so busy 2006, some days there would only be half dozen eating there. Instead, people started appearing with their Lidl carriers, giant bottles of coke, fat kids, fatter women and beer belly Dads…these were Spanish chavs. Yes there are plenty in the UK but not in the places I live or frequent. We virtually pulled up the drawbridge at that time of the year and stuck to the pool and garden.

    I shudder to think what the neighbours would be like in an area with 30,000โ‚ฌ houses. I doubt most of them exist except in web-land, either just a plant to get people interested or a scam. Costa de la Luz seems to get a better type of visitor.

  • #110198
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    Well, I have never seen people as you, or a person on another forum, have described at Alicante or MJV airports but admit I have never been at either during the month of August.

    Never fancied anywhere on the CDS because it was always my impression, rightly or wrongly, that it was overloaded with the criminal element and people you have so accurately described.

    As for wearing clothes from Primark .. what is wrong with that for goodness sake !! Cheap ideal holiday wear in a hot climate because after a few washes they are ready for the bin.
    If it is good enough for Kingston-Upon-Thames to have such a shop it is certainly good enough for me.

    Some coastal areas have prostituted themselves to get a “certain” type of foreign clientรจle and other areas to defraud gullible Joe public. Sometimes they have done both.
    However Spain is an enormous country and there are plenty of areas where the more discerning of we Brits prefer to live or holiday.

    Angie you are not alone in warning others. I am only too aware of the problems in the Almeria region and have distributed pamphlets at International airports, signed numerous petitions and, if it should arise, in conversations with fellow travellers will warn them to take due care et al.

    I love Spain and I love Britain. Neither are faultless but within both countries, if one cares to diligently seek, there are good places to live.

    What I wonder though has all this to do with the OP subject !!

  • #110200
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Some spanish friends who live in Marbella go here for August. We visited 2 years ago for a few days, kids love it. Great for those who don’t want to sit on a sun lounger all day or sit in a Brit bar ๐Ÿ˜€

    http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=playa+las+catedrales+galicia+spain&hl=en&rlz=1T4TEUA_enGB469GB469&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=GXr5T-jaJJOE8gP9hKyPBw&ved=0CF4QsAQ&biw=1366&bih=640

  • #110201
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Some spanish friends who live in Marbella go here for August. We visited 2 years ago for a few days, kids love it. Great for those who don’t want to sit on a sun lounger all day or sit in a Brit bar ๐Ÿ˜€

    http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=playa+las+catedrales+galicia+spain&hl=en&rlz=1T4TEUA_enGB469GB469&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=GXr5T-jaJJOE8gP9hKyPBw&ved=0CF4QsAQ&biw=1366&bih=640

    Galicia looks great I admit. I’ve spent a few holidays on the north coast in Asturias and Cantabria and can verify there are loads of picturesque beaches (as well as stunning countryside), some of them often nearly empty even at the height of summer. However it has to be said that the climate is affected by the Atlantic, and rain can often rule out a day at the beach. You also really need to know some Spanish to get by as you won’t bump into other Brits – younger Spanish may be ok speaking a little English but many of the older generation will not.

  • #110202
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Melosine I think we agree generally and I wasn’t having a go at you, you’ve been fortunate at the airports ๐Ÿ˜‰

    The Primark thing was in fact posted by others on another site which I used as an example, however I agree with their comments about those shaven headed tattoed people from UK who abound in many of the Costas.

    I have plenty of happy experiences and evidence of huge areas of Spain which is chav free and beautiful, seriously, I like the North East, around the Costa Brava mentioned earlier like Palafrugell, I have been to Santander a couple of times and driven through Northern Spain to La Corruna, then back across the plains through Los Picos and all very spectacular.

    I will emphasise and most who’ve been on here for years similar to me, will know the gripe is with the mis-selling on the Costa Blanca and Costa del Sol and those who still want to hype it up for newbies as ‘now is the time to buy’ when there’s so much uncertainty around. No we don’t hate Spain, just that ugly side of it and I’m pleased to hear you also help others ๐Ÿ˜‰

    The real Spain is still out there but the Costas have been overdeveloped and spoilt IMO ๐Ÿ™„ BTW I was the original poster which topic was all about what would happen if Spain copied France over this Holiday Home Tax hike ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110213
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    No offence taken, Angie.
    Might have guessed you were OP but couldnยดt be bothered to go back 5 pages.

    My 3 wishes for the future are,
    1, That the Spanish Government would order the various juntas to legalise properties built in good faith..even if they fined everyone max 1,000e then they would soon have euros towards their massive debt… because until such time everyone who owns property here, legal or not, is in BIG trouble added to which honest folk are not going to advise anyone to buy until it is sorted. So Spain also loses out as well.

    2, Murray wins Wimbledon ๐Ÿ™„ ยดcos I certainly wonยดt be around in 76 years time

    3, Please could we have some of your rain.

  • #110215
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I kid you not we have brilliant sunshine now…2 hours of it…can’t last ๐Ÿ˜†

    As for Murray, I want him to lose since he wore the Portugese football shirt when england played them. OH wants him to win…we have such harmony in our home ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • #110216
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    What else would you expect from a Scotsman !! ( spoken tongue in cheek)lol
    Anyway true to form…he lost….

  • #110218
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @melosine wrote:

    What else would you expect from a Scotsman !! ( spoken tongue in cheek)lol
    Anyway true to form…he lost….

    I had no doubts. It’s the difference between true greatness and the very best. Samprass had it, so does Rodger Federer. In top tennis there is always an inevitability about the ending.

    Bit like investing in Spain – disaster. ๐Ÿ™

  • #110220
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @melosine wrote:

    What else would you expect from a Scotsman !! ( spoken tongue in cheek)lol
    Anyway true to form…he lost….

    Always the bridesmaid never the bride ๐Ÿ˜† I did feel (slightly) sorry for him, even though I dislike the man. notice how he seemed to be getting more scottish when he was winning…..He hates England.

  • #110221
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    You’re so right about Murray, he does seem to dislike the English, people don’t warm to him, he’s rather arrogant, and Federer is a true champion and can step up a gear as other greats have done.

    I have to say, because it was Murray, I only watched snatches of it, and when he shed tears I felt a bit for him but it wore off after a few seconds I’m afraid ๐Ÿ™„ I think I should be ashamed of myself, no that feeling has passed too ๐Ÿ˜• I have some good Scottish friends though and play golf with them 8)

  • #110222
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    Looks like the Spanish government is considering giving automatic residency to anyone who pays more than โ‚ฌ250k for a property:

    @katy wrote:

    A bit like Panama and some other 3rd world countries ๐Ÿ˜†

    Not unlike the UK either, who are exempting higher earners from immigration figures

    http://news.sky.com/story/837353/high-earners-exempt-from-immigration-curbs

    Anyone who earns more than ยฃ150,000 a year can come to the UK to work and will be not be counted as part of the immigration quota, the Government has announced.

    Wonder if Katy will admit to the UK being a “3rd world country” based on her criteria??? Somehow I doubt it very much..
    Either way (immigration figure or residency status) it’s a bizarre way of calculating third-world status.

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