What I have come to believe

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This topic contains 66 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 9 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #52497
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    Having worked in real estate on the coast for large organisations and inland in a small partnership, all on the Costa Del Sol I have seen most of the problems that are aired on this site.
    Like me, most people I worked with believed they were giving the correct advice to their clients
    I have worked in real estate for 6 years and for most of that time had no idea what was going on behind the scenes.
    It seems to me that with a properly run notaria system that most of the problems to do with completion would not exist.
    How hard can it be for a notario to check the escitura and if there is a LFO.
    By the way in case anyone thinks Im another fat cat agent I have personaly lost over 40000€.
    Most of us are also victims of this totally corrupt system.
    I for one am giving up on Spain and going back to the UK:

    Garry

  • #67753
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @gj wrote:

    It seems to me that with a properly run notaria system that most of the problems to do with completion would not exist.
    How hard can it be for a notario to check the escitura and if there is a LFO.

    Garry

    That seems to make perfect sense and I can’t understand why it is not done that way. I’m really not sure quite what the function of the notary is other than to check your identity and witness the signatures. If there is a genuine desire to clean up some of the corruption then it seems the notary would be a logical starting point.

  • #67765
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    What you have not learnt or beleive is the Notary function is to collect our Taxes etc and hand it over ( Even the spanish Government cant the trust the lawyers to do this )

    Hence a large Notary fee as a bribe (otherwise why would he/she be paid so much money to witness signature and identify people ) any adult with sane mind can do this.

  • #67776
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    A notary limits himself to ensuring that contracts are drawn up correctly from the legal point of view – and that the corresponding taxes are duly paid. He is also available to give legal and contractual advice to anyone who asks.

    However, he isn’t a sort of official superman fighting injustice and poorly considered buying decisions.

    For example, if someone decides to buy a property without the usual ten-year building insurance, or without an LFO, then he will simply point out that these documents are not available and invite the buyer to sign if he so wishes.

  • #67777
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The problems arise when,as in most cases, a trusted lawyer has POA to sign the purchase contract on behalf of their client. They sign regardless of what the notary may point out as all they are interested in is their commission for themselves and the estate agent that they hugely depend on for their business.

    This is the case in many of the off plan developments along the CDS. I’m not saying it is the case with all Lawyers as I know there are some excellent ones to be found. Trying to find one is just like looking for gold dust though! 😉

  • #67778
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    The problems within the Spanish property market need to be resolved by change, and my point as I said in my origonal post, is the need for a properly run notory system.
    At least we start with the notory being independant and can be held accountable.
    Why can it not be mandatory for new devopments to have LFO.and 10 year guarantee.
    As for POA with regard to property matters just insist the purchaser is present at completion for it to take place and that a translater is present.
    POA is to open to abuse to continue.
    Can any Brit say they understood what happended at the notory when they completed their purchase.Should not all documents be in the language of the buyer as well as Spanish.
    These are my thoughts for discussion as a possible improvement to the way things are.
    Garry

  • #67780
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    GJ

    like many things when buying in Spain, these are all common sense idea’s to most people, i just don’t think common sense and the Spanish system go together!

  • #67781
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    In an ideal world I agree 100% with GJ.

    I also know that what goodstich says is absolutely true! 🙁

  • #67809
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @gj wrote:

    Can any Brit say they understood what happended at the notory when they completed their purchase. Should not all documents be in the language of the buyer as well as Spanish.

    If a foreign buyer doesn’t understand what is going on at the Notary or understand all the documents then, surely, the onus is on them, the buyer, to employ a translator/interpreter? A Spaniard buying property in the UK wouldn’t expect to have all the documents produced for them in Spanish, would they?!

    In my experience, most people don’t want to pay for this sort of service and so they risk the consequences. But that’s their own choice.

  • #67810
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I FULLY AGREE WITH YOU IN SO FAR AS THE LANGUAGES ARE CONCERNED. HOWEVER IN PRACTISE THE TRANSLATOR WILL BE WASTING HIS/HER TIME.

    AS YOU ARE AWARE THE IN WHICH EVER COUNTRY YOU GO THE NOTARY ARE AS GODS, I HAVE NOTICED PEOPLE GETTING UP FOR HIM AND BEING VERY SUB SERVIENT.

    IN MY EXPERIENCE THE NOTARY HAS NOT SPENT MORE THAN 5 MINUTES IN THE ROOM DID NOT EXPLAIN HIS ROLE, NOR DID HE SAID WHAT WILL FOLLOW. THEY FLY IN FROM ONE ROOM TO ANOTHER JUST VERFIYING THE IDENTITY AND FLY OUT.

    WHAT GOOD IS THE TRANSLATOR IN SUCH CIRCUMSTANCES.

    FRANKLY NOTARY SHOULD BE ACCOUNTABLE TO ENSURE THAT ALL REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW ARE FULFILLED. THEY ONLY WORRY ABOUT THE LATEST PAYMENT OF IBI, THIS CLEARLY INDICATE THEIR LEANINGS.

  • #67811
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I agree with you Shakeel. Our Notary barely touched the chair and he was gone. !!

  • #67812
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Rawlins wrote:

    For example, if someone decides to buy a property without the usual ten-year building insurance, or without an LFO, then he will simply point out that these documents are not available and invite the buyer to sign if he so wishes.

    In our case the notary did not point out that there was no LFO – and we did employ a translator, a member of the local council as it happens! In front of the notary we asked the developer about the missing facilities – golf course, pool and spa, beachclubhouse etc etc etc. and this question was translated into Spanish. The developer laughed (oh, how he laughed) and said (in Spanish) “If we did not advertise these things no-one would buy the houses!” Neither the notary nor the councillor turned a hair at this, but the notary was becoming quite agitated that we were overstaying our appointment so we were ushered out of the room at some speed.

    The notary would be able to nip a great deal of the corruption in the bud if they had the will – but they don’t. There’s no profit to be made in that.

  • #67813
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi,

    I have to agree with hillybilly. The onus should be on the buyer to employ the right people so he understands what is happening if he doesnt speak the language. Translating into the many different languages of the world would grind the whole system to a complete halt.

    Sorry Shakeel but I cant agree with you. The job of the notary is to ensure identitites etc and to note the transaction on behalf of the government/land registry etc. Its the job of the lawyers to present the correct legal documents. If we had a system of notaries checking lawyers, then we would end up with someone checking the notaries……..then someone checking the person who is checking the notaires…….. Its slow enough already !!

    Best wishes

    Bernard

  • #67815
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The visit to the notary must be regarded as a mere, but necessary, formality.

    That is to say, every legal detail and cost must have been agreed in writing in advance of the visit.

    The notary is not the place to negotiate or make discoveries.

  • #67816
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    So what you are saying Rawlins is that Notaries make loads of money for doing sweet *A. I could do that!! 😯 Look at a passport …scribble on a document and walk away with a fat fee.!!

    I’m not intentionally being facetious but surely a Notary should have more responsibility to us the purchasers. Maybe then the corrupt lawyers would be bought to book. It seems the Notary is rubber stamping these frauds.

    Bernard, it may seem ludicrous that every person should be checked by another but maybe these lawyers etc, would not get away with what many of them are. Lets face it…it can’t be much worse or slower than it is now. The end result may be more satisfactory though. 😕

  • #67817
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well…. I don’t believe that any notary has ever gone bankrupt and I never met an ex-notary.

  • #67818
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    blawes 1 wrote,
    ”The onus should be on the buyer to employ the right people so he understands what is happening if he doesnt speak the language”

    I feel the onus should not be on the buyer, but whoever has advised you, or is representing you. We need to know that whoever we are paying to look after our interests, are doing just that. We shouldn’t be screwed because we can’t understand a language or screwed because we have to trust someone that does. If that does happen, then why the hell isn’t the law coming down very hard on those people?

    Con-men will only survive if the system allows, and spanish system seems so poor, i think it encourages them!

  • #68009
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Goodstitch,

    I agree with you. My point was only in relation to the process at a notary office and understanding what is happening. If needed the client should employ a translator and his lawyer should present all the correct legal documents. My point was that the notary should not be responsible for providing documents or translations to English.

    We bought our property in Spain in the 80’s and the exact same problems existed then as do now. The whole process needs to be rebuilt but the problem will always exist when there is large amounts of money at stake. There will always be someone ready to accept a bribe. So whoever is checking whoever, at some point it will break down.

    Bernard

  • #67822
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Goodstitch,

    I agree with you. My point was only in relation to the process at a notary office and understanding what is happening. If needed the client should employ a translator and his lawyer should present all the correct legal documents. My point was that the notary should not be responsible for providing documents or translations to English.

    We bought our property in Spain in the 80’s and the exact same problems existed then as do now. The whole process needs to be rebuilt but the problem will always exist when there is large amounts of money at stake. There will always be someone ready to accept a bribe. So whoever is checking whoever, at some point it will break down.

    Bernard

  • #68019
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    blawes1 wrote

    ”The whole process needs to be rebuilt but the problem will always exist when there is large amounts of money at stake. There will always be someone ready to accept a bribe.”

    I think you are right, this is such a common thread running through the posts. What worries me, is that the longer we are involved with the Spanish system, i’m starting to think this is regarded as fairly normal, even in various legal matters that we take for granted as being safe in the U.K.

  • #67827
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    blawes1 wrote

    ”The whole process needs to be rebuilt but the problem will always exist when there is large amounts of money at stake. There will always be someone ready to accept a bribe.”

    I think you are right, this is such a common thread running through the posts. What worries me, is that the longer we are involved with the Spanish system, i’m starting to think this is regarded as fairly normal, even in various legal matters that we take for granted as being safe in the U.K.

  • #68035
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Public notaries obliged to state form of how property purchase payments are made to prevent money laundering……Law from 1st Dec.

    http://www.surinenglish.com/noticias.php?Noticia=9714

  • #67835
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Public notaries obliged to state form of how property purchase payments are made to prevent money laundering……Law from 1st Dec.

    http://www.surinenglish.com/noticias.php?Noticia=9714

  • #68036
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Public notaries obliged to state form of how property purchase payments are made to prevent money laundering……Law from 1st Dec.

    They had to do it since 2001 if non residents were involved… (Spanish foreign investments acts), seems 36/2006 Act to prevent money laundry and latest court actions against corruption had somehow wake up both them and land register officials as no purchase is being allowed this days without the compulsory bank certification of money sources

    Cesar

  • #67836
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Public notaries obliged to state form of how property purchase payments are made to prevent money laundering……Law from 1st Dec.

    They had to do it since 2001 if non residents were involved… (Spanish foreign investments acts), seems 36/2006 Act to prevent money laundry and latest court actions against corruption had somehow wake up both them and land register officials as no purchase is being allowed this days without the compulsory bank certification of money sources

    Cesar

  • #68037
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Please bear in mind that if the Notary were to do his job and prevent sales completing when problems seem to exist he would not get paid!

    Hmm…….. who is the Noatary working for?

    Correct – himself. He is best off getting the paperwork signed off and getting paid!!!!!!

  • #67837
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Please bear in mind that if the Notary were to do his job and prevent sales completing when problems seem to exist he would not get paid!

    Hmm…….. who is the Noatary working for?

    Correct – himself. He is best off getting the paperwork signed off and getting paid!!!!!!

  • #67842
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Cesar wrote:

    Public notaries obliged to state form of how property purchase payments are made to prevent money laundering……Law from 1st Dec.

    They had to do it since 2001 if non residents were involved… (Spanish foreign investments acts), seems 36/2006 Act to prevent money laundry and latest court actions against corruption had somehow wake up both them and land register officials as no purchase is being allowed this days without the compulsory bank certification of money sources

    Cesar

    So how do they describe the bit where they leave the room and brown envelopes of money are exchanged?

  • #68042
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Cesar wrote:

    Public notaries obliged to state form of how property purchase payments are made to prevent money laundering……Law from 1st Dec.

    They had to do it since 2001 if non residents were involved… (Spanish foreign investments acts), seems 36/2006 Act to prevent money laundry and latest court actions against corruption had somehow wake up both them and land register officials as no purchase is being allowed this days without the compulsory bank certification of money sources

    Cesar

    So how do they describe the bit where they leave the room and brown envelopes of money are exchanged?

  • #67843
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Touché!! Good point, no doubt…

    Cesar

  • #68043
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Touché!! Good point, no doubt…

    Cesar

  • #67851
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    Cesar[/quote]

    So how do they describe the bit where they leave the room and brown envelopes of money are exchanged?[/quote]

    But realisticaly how is the notary going to stop that?

    example: I i agree to pay 20.000 to the vendor and the money is not declared, nor are the funds ‘extra’ payments done infront of the notary, how are they supposed to know? We all agree & sign that the property is being bought for say 200.000 and i just give them the rest when the notary leaves to the room, or when we’re outside, or i give it to my lawyer before hand to pass on to the other lawyer when the deal is completed, etc…

    Currently agencies are supposed to inform the police/gov. if a clients uses a certain amount of cash in the transaction (or they face fines). This should go further and keep track of vendor accounts aswell. Sudden increases in funds, purchases without having used existing accounts, etc…
    And this needs to work across borders aswell so that a vendor can’t simply use a currency exchange company or some other firm to transfer the funds abroad.

  • #68051
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    Cesar[/quote]

    So how do they describe the bit where they leave the room and brown envelopes of money are exchanged?[/quote]

    But realisticaly how is the notary going to stop that?

    example: I i agree to pay 20.000 to the vendor and the money is not declared, nor are the funds ‘extra’ payments done infront of the notary, how are they supposed to know? We all agree & sign that the property is being bought for say 200.000 and i just give them the rest when the notary leaves to the room, or when we’re outside, or i give it to my lawyer before hand to pass on to the other lawyer when the deal is completed, etc…

    Currently agencies are supposed to inform the police/gov. if a clients uses a certain amount of cash in the transaction (or they face fines). This should go further and keep track of vendor accounts aswell. Sudden increases in funds, purchases without having used existing accounts, etc…
    And this needs to work across borders aswell so that a vendor can’t simply use a currency exchange company or some other firm to transfer the funds abroad.

  • #67857
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    Surley the main point here is that its the buyers that are on the receiving end of all the loopholes in Spanish law.
    Does anyone have the will to sort it all out I doubt it.
    Will it come to a head I hope so.
    Garry

  • #68057
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    Surley the main point here is that its the buyers that are on the receiving end of all the loopholes in Spanish law.
    Does anyone have the will to sort it all out I doubt it.
    Will it come to a head I hope so.
    Garry

  • #67860
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    For the sake of argument, just as an example, suppose that a town (let’s imagine it is in in Murcia) has a population of say around 23,000.

    Suppose that the notary in this town witnesses the contracts for say 8,000 off-plan properties on two urbanisations – properties which will potentially increase the population of the town by 50%. (And imagine the fees he earns!)

    Now suppose that not one, not one single one, of these properties has a Habitation Certificate, Licence of First Occupation, whatever you would like to call it.

    Imagine that this is because the developers of these urbanisations have not fulfilled the requirements of their planning consent by providing the infrastructure that they promised to obtain the building licences.

    So – not one of these 8,000 or so properties can be considered to be legally habitable. Not one of them can legally obtain power or water supplies.

    Would you suppose that the notary of this town might just stop for a minute and wonder if he should consider that this might be a problem that he should possibly address?

    Or not?

  • #68060
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    For the sake of argument, just as an example, suppose that a town (let’s imagine it is in in Murcia) has a population of say around 23,000.

    Suppose that the notary in this town witnesses the contracts for say 8,000 off-plan properties on two urbanisations – properties which will potentially increase the population of the town by 50%. (And imagine the fees he earns!)

    Now suppose that not one, not one single one, of these properties has a Habitation Certificate, Licence of First Occupation, whatever you would like to call it.

    Imagine that this is because the developers of these urbanisations have not fulfilled the requirements of their planning consent by providing the infrastructure that they promised to obtain the building licences.

    So – not one of these 8,000 or so properties can be considered to be legally habitable. Not one of them can legally obtain power or water supplies.

    Would you suppose that the notary of this town might just stop for a minute and wonder if he should consider that this might be a problem that he should possibly address?

    Or not?

  • #67861
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    A Spanish notary is possibly one of the most comfortable (and profitable) professions in Spain.

    http://www.euroresidentes.com/Property/vocab/s … notary.htm

  • #68061
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    A Spanish notary is possibly one of the most comfortable (and profitable) professions in Spain.

    http://www.euroresidentes.com/Property/vocab/s … notary.htm

  • #67865
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    If both parties agree to lie in their declarations, before the Notary, Land Registry and Tax administration there is very little anyone can do…

    Real control is only possible in Protected dwellings as selling price is regulated and Regional Governments have the right to buy the houses in the given prices but selling non protected dwellings between individuals… quite hard…

    One announced measure to try to stop this is to make compulsory to attach private contracts to the tittle deeds but i doubt it will do any real effect…

    But anyway be careful and NEVER accept to pay the so called black money… You may find ‘Hacienda’ making an investigation and using the real market value of the house to fine you….

    A Spanish notary is possibly one of the most comfortable (and profitable) professions in Spain

    Yep, but you have to bear in mind that the selection procedure to become a Notario or Registrador it’s the hardest in Spain, know a few lawyers, real good students, that tried for many, many years without success (some of them now judges and public prosecutors instead)

    Cesar

  • #68065
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    If both parties agree to lie in their declarations, before the Notary, Land Registry and Tax administration there is very little anyone can do…

    Real control is only possible in Protected dwellings as selling price is regulated and Regional Governments have the right to buy the houses in the given prices but selling non protected dwellings between individuals… quite hard…

    One announced measure to try to stop this is to make compulsory to attach private contracts to the tittle deeds but i doubt it will do any real effect…

    But anyway be careful and NEVER accept to pay the so called black money… You may find ‘Hacienda’ making an investigation and using the real market value of the house to fine you….

    A Spanish notary is possibly one of the most comfortable (and profitable) professions in Spain

    Yep, but you have to bear in mind that the selection procedure to become a Notario or Registrador it’s the hardest in Spain, know a few lawyers, real good students, that tried for many, many years without success (some of them now judges and public prosecutors instead)

    Cesar

  • #67866
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Despite the legal obligations of notaries, they also have a business to run.

    A strict application of the law can be very expensive for notaries.

    I know a small town near to Valencia with just two notaries. One of whom is very strict, although still inclined to turn a blind eye to small amounts of black money. The other notary is very flexible and will happily advise anyone on what are the minimum amounts to be declared.

    Both notaries are on the same street. The flexible notary always has a large crowd of customers waiting in the office; while the office of the strict notary is usually quiet.

    Despite the inevitable wait, most people prefer to deal with the flexible notary – who is always descibed as being ‘muy simpatico’.

  • #68066
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Despite the legal obligations of notaries, they also have a business to run.

    A strict application of the law can be very expensive for notaries.

    I know a small town near to Valencia with just two notaries. One of whom is very strict, although still inclined to turn a blind eye to small amounts of black money. The other notary is very flexible and will happily advise anyone on what are the minimum amounts to be declared.

    Both notaries are on the same street. The flexible notary always has a large crowd of customers waiting in the office; while the office of the strict notary is usually quiet.

    Despite the inevitable wait, most people prefer to deal with the flexible notary – who is always descibed as being ‘muy simpatico’.

  • #67867
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Cesar wrote:

    If both parties agree to lie in their declarations, before the Notary, Land Registry and Tax administration there is very little anyone can do…

    Real control is only possible in Protected dwellings as selling price is regulated and Regional Governments have the right to buy the houses in the given prices but selling non protected dwellings between individuals… quite hard…

    One announced measure to try to stop this is to make compulsory to attach private contracts to the tittle deeds but i doubt it will do any real effect…

    But anyway be careful and NEVER accept to pay the so called black money… You may find ‘Hacienda’ making an investigation and using the real market value of the house to fine you….

    A Spanish notary is possibly one of the most comfortable (and profitable) professions in Spain

    Yep, but you have to bear in mind that the selection procedure to become a Notario or Registrador it’s the hardest in Spain, know a few lawyers, real good students, that tried for many, many years without success (some of them now judges and public prosecutors instead)

    Cesar

    Hi Cesar,

    Totally agree.
    However, have to say that even if you are “white” all the way and the price on the Escritura is the actual price you have paid….there is still no guarantee that the Hacienda will not impose a fine on you (and the vendor) at any stage in the future if they feel you have underdeclared. Seems the Hacienda need regulating more than the Notaries!!

    What line does the Hacienda take when someone sells at a (genuine) loss – one that is evident by the price on the Escritura?
    In these times, there are cases of people selling at a loss for various reasons.

    Surely, if Hacienda can fine vendors/buyers for underdeclaring, then it stands to reason that the witness to the underdeclaration was the Notary?!

    Stewart

  • #68067
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Cesar wrote:

    If both parties agree to lie in their declarations, before the Notary, Land Registry and Tax administration there is very little anyone can do…

    Real control is only possible in Protected dwellings as selling price is regulated and Regional Governments have the right to buy the houses in the given prices but selling non protected dwellings between individuals… quite hard…

    One announced measure to try to stop this is to make compulsory to attach private contracts to the tittle deeds but i doubt it will do any real effect…

    But anyway be careful and NEVER accept to pay the so called black money… You may find ‘Hacienda’ making an investigation and using the real market value of the house to fine you….

    A Spanish notary is possibly one of the most comfortable (and profitable) professions in Spain

    Yep, but you have to bear in mind that the selection procedure to become a Notario or Registrador it’s the hardest in Spain, know a few lawyers, real good students, that tried for many, many years without success (some of them now judges and public prosecutors instead)

    Cesar

    Hi Cesar,

    Totally agree.
    However, have to say that even if you are “white” all the way and the price on the Escritura is the actual price you have paid….there is still no guarantee that the Hacienda will not impose a fine on you (and the vendor) at any stage in the future if they feel you have underdeclared. Seems the Hacienda need regulating more than the Notaries!!

    What line does the Hacienda take when someone sells at a (genuine) loss – one that is evident by the price on the Escritura?
    In these times, there are cases of people selling at a loss for various reasons.

    Surely, if Hacienda can fine vendors/buyers for underdeclaring, then it stands to reason that the witness to the underdeclaration was the Notary?!

    Stewart

  • #67868
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Cesar wrote:

    A Spanish notary is possibly one of the most comfortable (and profitable) professions in Spain

    Yep, but you have to bear in mind that the selection procedure to become a Notario or Registrador it’s the hardest in Spain, know a few lawyers, real good students, that tried for many, many years without success (some of them now judges and public prosecutors instead)

    Cesar

    I often hear this argument used as a justification for the high prices charged by notaries.

    But the point is that these difficult exams are simply a device used by the notary association to limit the number of people who become notaries. By raising the entry bar very high, few people decide to study for the exams and even fewer pass.

    Imagine that a similarly difficult exam was set for, say, firemen. Would they then be justified in earning 250.000 euros a year?

  • #68068
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Cesar wrote:

    A Spanish notary is possibly one of the most comfortable (and profitable) professions in Spain

    Yep, but you have to bear in mind that the selection procedure to become a Notario or Registrador it’s the hardest in Spain, know a few lawyers, real good students, that tried for many, many years without success (some of them now judges and public prosecutors instead)

    Cesar

    I often hear this argument used as a justification for the high prices charged by notaries.

    But the point is that these difficult exams are simply a device used by the notary association to limit the number of people who become notaries. By raising the entry bar very high, few people decide to study for the exams and even fewer pass.

    Imagine that a similarly difficult exam was set for, say, firemen. Would they then be justified in earning 250.000 euros a year?

  • #67869
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Although I agree that’s what many people believes (and I may add they have real reasons to do so) It is not any Notary association but the Spanish Ministry of Justice who rules and states the way you become a Notario as any other public non-elected public official or civil servant.

    They don’t have a bar association in the ‘traditional’ way but a public staff organization highly regulated that includes them, Land & Commerce Registry Officials and Official Commerce Brokers. Central Government decides how many they are, which places to appoint them and even their fees so I guess they aren’t the only ones to blame and despite the last official measures to favor competence and reduce costs to the general public there is still a lot to be done…

    Not defending them (don’t really like this system) But I do recognize they are highly prepared professionals with a lot of responsibilities that deal with many other additional issues than witnessing dwelling purchases

    Cesar

  • #68069
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Although I agree that’s what many people believes (and I may add they have real reasons to do so) It is not any Notary association but the Spanish Ministry of Justice who rules and states the way you become a Notario as any other public non-elected public official or civil servant.

    They don’t have a bar association in the ‘traditional’ way but a public staff organization highly regulated that includes them, Land & Commerce Registry Officials and Official Commerce Brokers. Central Government decides how many they are, which places to appoint them and even their fees so I guess they aren’t the only ones to blame and despite the last official measures to favor competence and reduce costs to the general public there is still a lot to be done…

    Not defending them (don’t really like this system) But I do recognize they are highly prepared professionals with a lot of responsibilities that deal with many other additional issues than witnessing dwelling purchases

    Cesar

  • #67870
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Cesar wrote:

    Although I agree that’s what many people believes (and I may add they have real reasons to do so) It is not any Notary association but the Spanish Ministry of Justice who rules and states the way you become a Notario as any other public non-elected public official or civil servant.

    Cesar

    Fair point Cesar.

    While notaries are not strictly self-regulated, I am nevertheless certain that their professional association is discreetly influential with the government department that nominally regulates them. Key decisions are made, I am sure, over long lunches at expensive Madrid restaurants.

    The interests of Spanish consumers and those individuals that would like to become notaries are surely not represented.

  • #68070
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Cesar wrote:

    Although I agree that’s what many people believes (and I may add they have real reasons to do so) It is not any Notary association but the Spanish Ministry of Justice who rules and states the way you become a Notario as any other public non-elected public official or civil servant.

    Cesar

    Fair point Cesar.

    While notaries are not strictly self-regulated, I am nevertheless certain that their professional association is discreetly influential with the government department that nominally regulates them. Key decisions are made, I am sure, over long lunches at expensive Madrid restaurants.

    The interests of Spanish consumers and those individuals that would like to become notaries are surely not represented.

  • #67871
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    It does seem as if the notaries jobs are “inherited” by families. some of the ones here are at least second generation maybe even third.

  • #68071
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    It does seem as if the notaries jobs are “inherited” by families. some of the ones here are at least second generation maybe even third.

  • #67872
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Some of the large developers insist on choosing the notary and appear to have their ‘favourites’……….. 🙄

  • #68072
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Some of the large developers insist on choosing the notary and appear to have their ‘favourites’……….. 🙄

  • #67873
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Dorothy,
    You are absolutely right some of them are chosen by the builders ( brown envelope comes to mind) some purchase contract may stipulate that a particular notary has to be used. The reason given by the developers
    are

    a) As notary do/may not agree with others it creates problems.

    b) Its will be cheaper as the notary will have all the papers.

    c) We have been dealing with this notary.

    I am aware that a notary friend of mine in france has confirmed ( a & b)
    but I am afraid as we are talking out about Spain, I am not sure if I can give them the benefit of the doubt. sorry to all the legal people in Spain for my views but I think the system in Spain has forced these kind of view onto themselves.

    ,

  • #68073
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Dorothy,
    You are absolutely right some of them are chosen by the builders ( brown envelope comes to mind) some purchase contract may stipulate that a particular notary has to be used. The reason given by the developers
    are

    a) As notary do/may not agree with others it creates problems.

    b) Its will be cheaper as the notary will have all the papers.

    c) We have been dealing with this notary.

    I am aware that a notary friend of mine in france has confirmed ( a & b)
    but I am afraid as we are talking out about Spain, I am not sure if I can give them the benefit of the doubt. sorry to all the legal people in Spain for my views but I think the system in Spain has forced these kind of view onto themselves.

    ,

  • #67875
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well… know your rights…

    As being the purchaser YOU do have the right BY LAW to choose the Notary

    Cesar

  • #68075
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well… know your rights…

    As being the purchaser YOU do have the right BY LAW to choose the Notary

    Cesar

  • #67876
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Cesar, I think most of us have now learnt that lesson…………but one can’t help wondering what the developers gain by this.

  • #68076
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Cesar, I think most of us have now learnt that lesson…………but one can’t help wondering what the developers gain by this.

  • #67877
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Cesar wrote:

    Although I agree that’s what many people believes (and I may add they have real reasons to do so) It is not any Notary association but the Spanish Ministry of Justice who rules and states the way you become a Notario as any other public non-elected public official or civil servant.

    They don’t have a bar association in the ‘traditional’ way but a public staff organization highly regulated that includes them, Land & Commerce Registry Officials and Official Commerce Brokers. Central Government decides how many they are, which places to appoint them and even their fees so I guess they aren’t the only ones to blame and despite the last official measures to favor competence and reduce costs to the general public there is still a lot to be done…

    Not defending them (don’t really like this system) But I do recognize they are highly prepared professionals with a lot of responsibilities that deal with many other additional issues than witnessing dwelling purchases

    Cesar

    If notaries have this level of professionalism, accountability and government regulation then I feel even more strongly that the notary is the ideal starting point to put pressure on some developers to clean up their act.

  • #68077
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Cesar wrote:

    Although I agree that’s what many people believes (and I may add they have real reasons to do so) It is not any Notary association but the Spanish Ministry of Justice who rules and states the way you become a Notario as any other public non-elected public official or civil servant.

    They don’t have a bar association in the ‘traditional’ way but a public staff organization highly regulated that includes them, Land & Commerce Registry Officials and Official Commerce Brokers. Central Government decides how many they are, which places to appoint them and even their fees so I guess they aren’t the only ones to blame and despite the last official measures to favor competence and reduce costs to the general public there is still a lot to be done…

    Not defending them (don’t really like this system) But I do recognize they are highly prepared professionals with a lot of responsibilities that deal with many other additional issues than witnessing dwelling purchases

    Cesar

    If notaries have this level of professionalism, accountability and government regulation then I feel even more strongly that the notary is the ideal starting point to put pressure on some developers to clean up their act.

  • #67878
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Article in elmundo supplement re corruption.

    Causes, remedies etc. check titles on the left.

    One article states that the constructors have complicity from Politicians. banking officials, notaries, recorders and directors.

    http://elmundo.es/especiales/2006/11/espana/corrupcion_urbanistica/sospechosos.html

    Very apt cartoon with the constructor and mayor both wearing Rolex watches with the brown bag stuffed with money.

  • #68078
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Article in elmundo supplement re corruption.

    Causes, remedies etc. check titles on the left.

    One article states that the constructors have complicity from Politicians. banking officials, notaries, recorders and directors.

    http://elmundo.es/especiales/2006/11/espana/corrupcion_urbanistica/sospechosos.html

    Very apt cartoon with the constructor and mayor both wearing Rolex watches with the brown bag stuffed with money.

  • #67879
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Article in elmundo supplement re corruption.

    Not too reliable in Asturias at least… The Navia Case is only partly real, the Llanes one… Only a bluff, (and I know what I’m saying 😉 ) the so called AVALL association it’s only a political movement against the mayor inducted by the opposite political party.

    There are some other scandals, minor ones if you compare with the CDS, but much more important that the ones quoted there…

    Cesar

  • #68079
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Article in elmundo supplement re corruption.

    Not too reliable in Asturias at least… The Navia Case is only partly real, the Llanes one… Only a bluff, (and I know what I’m saying 😉 ) the so called AVALL association it’s only a political movement against the mayor inducted by the opposite political party.

    There are some other scandals, minor ones if you compare with the CDS, but much more important that the ones quoted there…

    Cesar

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