Viva Estates MD has quit

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  • #52471
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Apparently Viva Estates boss has resigned – anyone know any more, eg reasons why?

    http://millsbomb.blogspot.com/2006/11/viva-md-steps-down.html

  • #67544
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I wonder if the practice of taking payment in advance for legal fees has been challenged by other lawyers?
    I read on another forum that a group of lawyers, 25+ have put a full page ad in this weeks SUR warning against paying any up-front fees to estate agents, the text of which I’ve pasted off another forum.

    IMPORTANT NOTICE TO ALL PROPERTY OWNERS

    Due to a recent commercial practice carried out by some real estates with the aim of attracting property owners and in view of the innumerable contacts from our clients showing their concerns and doubts of such a practice, the undersigned law firms and lawyers have decided to publicly explain the most commonly asked queries, facts and legal implications of this practice.

    This practice consists of an imposition of a LEGAL APPOINTMENT AND SERVICES NOT DEMANDED which, if rejected will be nevertheless charged.

    1.- Can I refuse to sign a clause by which the real estate obliges me to receive a service different to the intermediation in the sale or purchase of a property?
    Categorically YES. Such clauses are abusive and therefore not compulsory. Complaints of this practice maybe reported to your trusted lawyer or the consumers defence
    office in each city. We are going to effectively present complaints of any abusive clause that may affect our clients.

    According to the law 26/1984 19th July for the Defence of Consumers:

    “Clauses which are deemed abusive will be null and void and considered as ineffective ……

    At least the following will be considered abusive: . The imposition of complementary or accessory services which have not been requested and the increase in price for accessory services, finance and delayed payment which are not considered additional services and therefore may be clearly accepted or rejected separately in each
    case”.

    2.- 11 these clauses are abusive am I obliged to comply with them and even if 1 have already signed them or may I refuse to do so?

    We understand that not only can you refuse to comply with them; you should do so in your own interest It will be practically impossible for a real estate agency to enforce such documents, in which a service is imposed, if you are represented by an independent lawyer of your trust or wish to appoint your own, who has no relation with the
    agency.

    3- Is the offer of a legal service or conveyance service an abusive clause?

    The mere offer of a legal service is not an abusive clause in itself so long as the client has the opportunity to reject it and use his own appointed lawyer, with no additional cost in the commission in respect of any other who may wish to use these services.

    4. – Could I be charged for such legal services, even ¡II have rejected them and they are not provided to me?

    NO. A real estate cannot and should not charge for a service which cannot be compulsory, and which is not being provided or has been rejected by the client.

    5. – Are the lawyers recommended by a real estate really independent?

    A difference must be made between lawyers that a real estate may recommend to clients who request this service, from those who the real estate allocates on the basis of a
    service provided by them, which has not been demanded and above all when the client already has his own trusted lawyer or may wish to have the liberty to appoint one.
    In the case of the real estate allocating this service it is them the real client as it hires and pays its services. The client is receiving the service from the real estate who in
    tun is subcontracting such service from lawyers at a lower cost The lawyer in this case is not representing the vendors or buyers, but the real estate and therefore it is difficult
    to believe that such a service cloud be considered as independent regarding the vendor or buyer.

    6. – Could this affect the service that is being offered to me?

    Undoubtedly due to the fact that the interests, represented by the lawyers contracted by the agency to provide these services to their clients, might not necessarily be those
    of the vendor and buyers, but those of their real client, the real estate company.

    7. – What if the real estate assures me that the lawyers are totally independent and paid by me?

    If so, they should not impose to sign a contract or bind you in any other way to use this service, but on the contrary the client should be welcomed to choose his lawyer freely, without this resulting in a higher cost to him.

    8. – The real estate company has informed me that there is no need to use a lawyer when selling a property. Is this recommendable?

    NO. The use of your own trusted independent lawyer or your freedom of choice to appoint one, will avoid situations that may arise when the lawyer is not working exclusively
    for one of the parties (buyer or vendor).

    This independence could be jeopardised if, as we have detected, the lawyer or law firm allocated by the real estate is acting for both parties without the clients being aware
    of this.

    In such situations not only the obvious conflict of interest may arise, but many other situations like the possibility of a hidden price to one of the parties, undeclared payments,inadequate counselling so that the transactions are carried out regardless, etc.

    Specially after to the situation created in the Costa del Sol it is essential that clients seek for independent advice from trusted lawyers.

    Just ask yourself a simple question. What interest does a real estate have in you using a lawyer allocated and paid by them? What interest does the agency have in me not using my trusted lawyer?

    9. – I have been requested to pay In advance this legal service which I do not intend to use. Should I pay it?

    You should not pay for a service that has not been provided and even less so if you not intending to use it. Ask yourself if what you are really paying is a “listing fee” hidden
    as a service, which if the real estate pays to the lawyers will be at the end of the transaction and not before.

    For any doubts and queries on these and other matters we are at the disposal of our clients, reminding you that the best advice we can give you is NOT TO DO ANYTHING HERE THAT YOU WOULD NOT DO AT HOME.

  • #67546
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    katy
    Spectator

    I think that it was just sour grapes that they were in danger of losing business not out of any concern for the vendors.
    Clearly anyone who puts money upfront for an agent to list their property is a bit naive, you have to ask yourself why they were doing that in a dying market. I wouldn’t pay upfront for a morning newspaper on this coast. Businesses and people disappear faster than properties sell in spain.

  • #67548
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well, he bet it all on this new listing policy, got to admire his b**lls. If the new policy wasn’t working then I guess the lawyers’ advert was the final nail.

    Shame really, although the same happened to Foxtons (UK Agent) when they tried the same approach in New York. Although second time round they got it right:

    http://nymag.com/nymetro/realestate/columns/realestate/11928/

    PJA, which forum did you get the lawyers’ post from, if you don’t mind my asking?

  • #67549
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    The lawyers post was from sur in english and (maybe) euroweekly. both freebie newspapers.

  • #67553
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    🙁 Has he jumped or was he pushed.
    Richard Jackson Chairman and main shareholder has taken over as MD and is now controlling the day to day running of the business.
    Chris will now be taking a back seat.

    On a different subject I am leaving Spain next month and do not want to take most of the contents of my house with me.Does anyone know a company that does house clearance for cash.I do not want to sell at boot fairs or markets or peicemeal.
    I realise I will receive a fraction of the value.

    Garry

  • #67555
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Quite an interesting read up until this sentence which gives the game away.

    @PJA wrote:

    8. – The real estate company has informed me that there is no need to use a lawyer when selling a property. Is this recommendable?

    NO. The use of your own trusted independent lawyer or your freedom of choice to appoint one, will avoid situations that may arise when the lawyer is not working exclusively
    for one of the parties (buyer or vendor).

    Actually, it is common practice for Spaniards to sell their real estate without using a lawyer. This goes for all sizes and shapes of properties, from the cheap apartments to higher end of the market with expensive properties. Sure, you need to know tax regulations etc, and may be recommendable for foreigners in Spain selling their property to appoint legal representation so that they are aware of their legal obligations once they have sold their property, but it is not obligatory to have a lawyer to sell your property. It is highly recommendable to have legal representation for purchasing a property in Spain though, however that is a totally different matter altogether.

    I agree with Katy, whereas the information may be pertinent and a good read, this looks like sour grapes, trying to avoid losing business, not out of any real concern for the vendors.

  • #67556
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    You can be cheated 1000 ways at a sell you being a foreigner without hiring a lawyer and you would never know until it’s too late.

    I advise you to hire a lawyer both at purchasing and at selling a property. Paying 1% to a lawyer isn’t that much to safeguard your interests IMHO, providing he is independent of course.

    Mr McCarthy gave that same flawed argument, “Spaniards don’t normally use lawyers at a sell”.

    Of course not, we speak the language and there is always a lawyer in every spanish family from whom you get free advice. Not to mention all the newspaper/magazine articles, radio and tv programs on the matter.

    Does a Brit need explaining what a P-60, SIIP, IRS is ? Of course not. I’m sure almost 100% of spaniards don’t know what those words mean. Well it’s the same but the other way round for us. We all know to a greater or lesser extent our tax system, the legal intricacies etc even if it’s by word of mouth.

    Advices like this only spell for trouble, not to mention they lack common sense. Don’t do things you would’t do back at home.

  • #67557
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    katy
    Spectator

    I agree with Drakan..make sure it is a good lawyer though. We sold a house through Viva years ago and decided to use their recommended lawyers thinking because we were only selling it could only be to our advantage, it was only when there was a delay that I found out that ourselves and the purchaser were using the same lawyer ❗ Recently I have been told that some of Viva lawyers charge a whopping 1.5% 😯

  • #67558
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Drakan wrote:

    You can be cheated 1000 ways at a sell you being a foreigner without hiring a lawyer and you would never know until it’s too late.

    I cannot think of one let alone 1000 ways of cheating a seller.

    Paying 1% to a lawyer isn’t that much to safeguard your interests.

    How could any lawyer justify 1% to sell a house?

    Don’t do things you would’t do back at home.

    Assuming you are refering to UK you might be surprised and possibly shocked to discover that no lawyer charges 1% or anything like that for the buying or selling of a house.

    Indeed it is usual to agree a fixed fee before work commences and the average cost is around 300 pounds sterling to sell and often banks or lenders have special offers where they pay the lawyer.

    In Spain its far cheaper to use a gestor to assist with the buying process.

    Jude

  • #67559
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’m talking of Spain, not the UK. Spanish lawyers charge 1% as a standard fee.

    A gestor ? You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. 😆

    A gestor is an office clerk who does all the footwork before the Tax Authorities, Land Registry, queue at Town Halls etc that lawyers, banks, people in general can’t be bothered to do.

    A gestor is someone who is graduated from high school normally. They don’t have higher education, such as a university degree, and when they do it’s not a law or economics degree, believe me. Very very few exceptions.

    I have plenty of friends who are gestores and you can not possibly compare them to a lawyer whose had to study hard and achieve high marks always to get into college and graduate and be accepted in a law firm. Please …

    If the purchase or sell is straightforward, which hardly ever occurs as any foreigner buying property in Spain can acknowledge, the gestor has no problems. Albeit the moment they run into some complication of a legal nature or not, which is bound to happen at some time, they are hopelessly lost not knowing what to do. How many times have I had to help out my friends on legal matters ? Talk to a gestor of bank guarantees, where they are regulated, how they work, how do deposits work, taxes etc… and they will have no idea. They have a superficial knowledge of legal matters at best in most cases as they haven’t studied law nor practised it, ever.

    Comparing a gestor’s duty to us lawyers is like comparing some merchant using an abacus with a stock broker. I’m sure there are qualified gestores, but they themselves know that they can not compare themselves to the legal expertise offered by a qualified lawyer.

    But if you want to purchase using the services of a gestor who are completely unqualified to do the job of a lawyer, nor are they regulated like us, nor do they have to be colleged like us, nor do they have a professional indemnity insurance like us, suit yourself.

    I’d rather pay more and know exactly what I’m getting in return. If foreigners complain about their lawyers purchasing property in Spain just try to do the same with a gestor and see what happens.

  • #67560
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    In response to the various comments made I am certainly in agreement that it is best practice to instruct an independent lawyer from the outset.

    However, with respect to the point made by Jude I would agree that 1% (usually + IVA) is in the large majority of instances expensive. However, comparison with the system in England & Wales – where I formerly practised – is difficult to say the least. Fundamentally because looked at in hours (which billing in England & Wales is generally linked to) one would expect that handling the conveyance of a registered freehold property in London (with or without mortgage loans involved) would take a a good deal less time than the man hours that can be involved in a similar operation in say Valencia.

    In this way a fee in Spain which is higher than 400 or 500 pounds plus VAT is in many ways justifiable but clearly in many instances a flat rate 1% can be difficult to justify.

    However, by the same token, where one is dealing with a more difficult or complex transaction the relatively higher fees are far more justifiable and indeed, I think that you would struggle to find a lawyer in the UK who would handle a complex transaction for the normal fixed fees quoted.

  • #67561
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Glyn with all due respect, if you charge less than 1% you will probably be sued by fellow law firms and lawyers for “competencia desleal” if not by the Bar Association itself as I’m sure you already know. Just look at this thread and what’s happened between Viva Estates and spanish law firms.

    Many law firms charge more than 1%. I’ve only seen one that charged less than that and it is now closed down. Another matter being if you make a special fee to a client as a discount for multiple services rendered.

    And comparing what a gestor and a lawyer can do for you is like comparing “almost” a layman with a qualified professional. I repeat it, gestores are not normally qualified with a law degree, if at all, and even if they are they have never practised in a law firm. Laws are changing all the time and a good lawyer is always undertaking ongoig education attending seminars etc…

  • #67562
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    I would still be interested to know just 1 of the 1000 ways a seller can be cheated because the vendor turns up to the notary and signs when the money has been paid. QED no money no sale.

    I am talking only of selling and 1% to a lawyer cannot be justified.

    Perhaps someone could enlighten me as to what a lawyer would do exactly for a sale only transaction for say a modest house selling for 450.000,00 Euros.

    Jude

  • #67563
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Jude enjoy your blissful ignorance. I believe you haven’t read my posts.

    I’m not going to explain in a public forum how to cheat and deceive others or the Tax Authorities as it is obvious.

    If you are so sure that buying and selling are completely different please enlighten us.

    The problem Jude is that you are resentful against Spanish lawyers due to a bad personal experience with a valencian lawyer:

    http://spanishpropertyinsight.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1717&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

    @Jude wrote:

    Unless I have missed a message, nobody has quoted chapter and verse any law compelling a foreign buyer to produce an NIE on the day he completes on a property in Spain.

    Everyone knows that an NIE or NIF is required to pay the taxes within 30 days from the date of completion.

    For myself I will be glad when the whole Spanish legal system is tightened up though doubt I will live long enough to see it.

    In the Valencia areas lawyers are making a good living out of charging foreign buyers TWICE, so if there is a new law no Notary I have come across in the past few weeks appears to know about it.

    I have seen double charging several times and it works like this……..
    First the lawyer says they dont have time to organise an NIE so get a NIF then later apply for an NIE when the vendor realises he needs the NIE for a multitude of transactions.

    These are the same lawyers charging foreigners 150 euros each to organise a Spanish Will with no thought whatsoever to future repercussions for those people.

    Does someones 85 year old Granny with no posessions at all really need a NIF, NIE and a Spanish Will?

    I would love to be able to name and shame the Valencia lawyer who relieved that family of 4,250 euros

    She charged them for a straightforward purchase…. 2,200 Euros, 5 NIFs and 5 NIEs at 130€ each = 1300€ and 5 Wills at 150€ each.= 750€

    Jude

  • #67564
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Drakan wrote:

    Jude enjoy your blissful ignorance. I believe you haven’t read my posts. I’m not going to explain in a public forum how to cheat and deceive others or the Tax Authorities as it is obvious.

    If you are so sure that buying and selling are completely different please enlighten us.

    The problem Jude is that you are resentful against Spanish lawyers due to a bad personal experience with a valencian lawyer:

    Draken

    Why do you adopt a patronising and/ or agressive stance against anyone who questions the activities of Spanish lawyers ? I am not attacking you personally so why patronise me. It is unecessary and uncalled for.

    If you re-read my post I did not say it was my personal experience but that of others. Nowhere in my post today did I mention defrauding the tax authorities when selling a property either.

    I do know the difference between buying and selling a property thats why I do not use a lawyer.

    I am interested in your reply regarding the lawyers cartel operating in Spain regarding fees. One would imagine the fixing of fees is illegal. There are lawyers advertising fees lower than 1%.

    Jude

  • #67565
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Perhaps many Spanish lawyers could afford to be more honest and ethical if they reduced their fees to a sensible level and therefore increased their business turnover.

    There seems to be far too much emphasis on ‘trust’ with these lawyers. I prefer the more businesslike British approach, everything confirmed, in writing, on a proper letterhead. My experience in Spain is that few people will commit to anything in writing!

  • #67568
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @tilly wrote:

    My experience in Spain is that few people will commit to anything in writing!

    Our experience too Tilly. 😕

  • #67570
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    I feel I should put in my Pounds worth. I am not a lawyer but have bought properties in UK and Spain. I would describe my experience, as

    English Lawyers:
    Total responsibulty, responsible to law society, does all the searches. obtain searches obtain service charges details if its leasehold property, deal with all queries in a timely fashion, obtain redemption figure from building society ensure that completion is done on the due date, also to ensure that completion etc takes place before the offer letter lapses.
    Any delays he/she will incur interest penalty.

    Of course they also study very hard and for years and its only because they chose the said profession and the fee of around £500 is excellent value.

    Spanish lawyers
    Frankly not responsible to any one. In theory obtain searches ( probebly sends the gestor for it) obtain record of any charges/collatrol and where the mortgages are setteled to ensure that the names are taken off the charges once it is dispensed.( normally forgets to do so and a charge is left on the register for the next buyer to sought out)

    Obtain documents re planning permission etc and the first certificate of occupation.

    In all our experience from the Forum users we all know what they do. With the college of Abagados doing very little and I am sorry Draken its not sufficient to simply blame some lawyers.

    I am afraid its the pasa nada attitude

    The English lawyers offer a very good value for money with full responsibilty unlike Spainish lawyer who charges atleat three times and behave with impunity.

    Apart from knowing the local terms as Draken mentioned about P60 etc. The Spaniards do not use lawyers as they know that they are poor value for money and do not acheive very much in the sence of value for money. ( Infact my Spanish friends consider them to be an obsticle and would only use them in the event of a divorce/accidents etc) Its precisely for this reason that many lawyers in order to make ends meet get in Finca administration.

    Let me tell that I had very good friend from Madrid whose father was a notory, when I asked her what does a notory do to justify their fee. My friend replied that they have to study a lot a very similar line to that Draken has taken.

    Well, folks I am sorry I dont really care how much you study or party. My question is I am paying you so what are you going to do for me.

    The kind of fee paid to some for some one two verify who is the buyer and the seller check their passport/ID and to the confirm the price and the address of the property is a very generous pay out.

    Please correct me if I a wrong the notary verifies the contract is legal/ lets face it all contracts are legal until you are notarising a drug /arms deal, which he will not do. So why have him ???? .

    Sorry. Draken if this upsets you.

  • #67573
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Look people I don’t come over to this forum to pick up fights with other fellow posters.

    There are two reasons why I post here:

    1.- To help clean the tainted reputation of spanish lawyers and law firms in general.
    2.- To help British and Irish with their legal queries regarding property conveyancing.

    Spain is not England. Many British forget this. The typical reply before any problem in Spain I get from a Brit is “… well in the UK we do this and that differently, better than you…”. Sorry to say this is Spain. Law firms don’t draft contracts with headings because it’s not required legally and the contract is perfectly valid as it is without headings (Tilly). Discussing about this is showing legal ignorance. Comparing gestores and lawyers to handle legal matters is ludicrous (Jude). Advising not to hire lawyers at a sell because we Spanish do the same is seriously irresponsible akin to saying that blackmoney is ok just because “everyone does it in Spain” (Truthbites).

    Many of you have had problems with lawyers and law firms in Spain because you hired those recommended by –British– Estate Agencies. I know your stories, I’ve read them all here.

    As I’ve posted many times over probably less than 1% of law firms and lawyers are bad professionals i.e. not requesting bank guarantees, working for the developer instead of the client, not putting down things on writing etc…

    Mark, the forum administrator, has a Black List of such lawyers/law firms and Estate Agencies. Just PM him and give him the names of the companies that you are in doubt with to hire and he will be happy to confirm.

    No use bashing spanish lawyers here, we will get entangled posting from different angles and get carried away. I’d rather approach this matter being proactive.

    If you have complaints about law firms and lawyers, estate agencies or other financial companies just PM Mark and together we will make a list that hopefully in a few years from now will help to weed out these companies from the market warning other prospective purchasers or users of their bad services. But holding grudges and venting them out over these threads is ok the first time but does get tiresome over and over again and leads us nowhere (Jude).

    Generalising about what disservices we lawyers seem to give is a bit absurd IMHO (Shakeel). Taking off the charges of mortgages at the Land Registry is the bank’s responsibility and I’m well informed this also happens in the UK because I know this first-hand Shakeel. There are plenty of good law firms. I can assure you Shakeel that if I only had to bother about Id of clients I would rather be an engineer. My legal work is completely different to what you are describing and involves alot of fighting with developers to change the wording and clauses in contracts and include clauses to protect my client’s interests amongst other many things such as checking titles, bank guarantees, watching out for liens on the property etc…

    If we charged less than 1% we would have to close this law firm.

    This is not going to happen. May I remind you all that 1% is a small professional fee to pay IMHO to an honest and hard-working professional with a law degree (5 years at university plus Master’s degree as well as attending seminars to be up to date) with top-marks when there are 20 year-old british estate agents who back in the UK would be regarded as unqualified workers (working in a Burger King) whereas over here in Spain they don’t even speak Spanish, much less know the laws properly only having a very superficial knowledge if at all -with exceptions of course-; only because they speak English fluently, they earn huge commissions ten-fold what we charge ? I don’t see you folks complaining on some estate agencies charging 18-25% commissions. I guess this must be normal in the UK then, because we Spanish certainly would never pay that.

  • #67574
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    I think it would help, Drakan, if your ‘Colegio de Abogados’ was more active/helpful/forceful in coming down hard on rogue lawyers.

    How is it when a client of a law firm complained/reported to the Colegio that his lawyer failed to get him a Bank Guarantee, allowed his purchase contract to contain many illegal clauses, for months failed to respond to e-mails/letters and ‘phone calls, gave him false legal advice regarding his current legal situation re. his purchase, helpled themselves to monies put in an account for a specific purpose by the client but drew on it for some overblown fee of theirs – and the Colegio simply said they wouldn’t be doing anything because as far as they were concerned this law firm ‘hadn’t broken any of their rules’.

    Such impotence of the Colegio only encourages some law firms to act in this way, whereas firm disciplinary action by them would go a long way to help clean up these (albeit few) rogue law firms.

    How many times have we read on this forum what a lawyer has legally (ill)advised a client – eg. “You don’t need a Bank Guarantee because your building is already built” despite no LFO, no legal building licence, etc.
    And “You only need a Bank Guarantee if your developer goes bust…” !

    IMO this **** will continue if the Colegio sits on its hands and does nothing, and clients (Spanish, English or whoever) simply have nowhere to go.

    Barbara

  • #67575
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    I can not speak on behalf of my Bar Association.

    But if they are not doing their job properly I would take the case to the British media who are always good at exposing these abuses. Perhaps pressure from your media on the Bar Association would help, I have no idea. No one wants bad press.

    It worries me what you write.

  • #67578
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant
    Drakan wrote:
    long post

    yay Drakan. 😀 great post

    Your absolutely right. In your opinion do you feel that it is time for the colegio to take on a more aggressive role in regards to the minority lawyers that are affecting the trust that peolpe have in you trade?

  • #67579
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    Paul
    Participant

    Maybe C. M. was taking too much flak as MD of Viva, and being dragged down by the bad Press other ‘rogue’ agents have been generating, plus the decline of Spanish property.

    I’m told that US property sales are rock bottom too which might also impact on world economies.

  • #67580
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @fuengi wrote:

    In your opinion do you feel that it is time for the colegio to take on a more aggressive role in regards to the minority lawyers that are affecting the trust that peolpe have in you trade?

    Thanks Fuengi. If I were in charge I would be draconian (ruthless) with them. That minority of 1% seriously damage and tarnish the rest of us. Can not speak on behalf of my Bar Association.

  • #67581
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Drakan wrote:

    It worries me what you write.

    With respect, Drakan, ‘worry’ doesn’t begin to describe what we, on the other end, feel.
    As a so-called regulatory body for lawyers, the Colegio’s reputation for many of us I’m afraid is that they are a complete waste of time.
    Just a ‘Boys’ Club’ has been mentioned to me more than once.

    Likewise, with some lawyers reluctant to take on someone’s case who has been badly served by their original lawyer and wants to sue them. As you once said, lawyers are very ‘reluctant’ to do this, to go against another lawyer.

    How is justice supposed to be served by this attitude?

    Don’t get me wrong, I am not ‘lawyer-bashing’ across the board.
    As you well know, I am now with a superb one. And we all know that you are a ‘good egg’ especially with the work you do here on the forum.

    It is just the fact that these few that seem to enjoy total immunity to any consequences, at the dreadful expense/stress of their clients, that make me so angry.
    Our original lawyer would have been struck off in the UK with how they conducted themselves on all counts during our purchase process.

    Thank goodness the likes of my lawyer and your good self 😉 show that Spain does have ‘good eggs’!

  • #67582
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    If this is the case Charlie and nor the provincial Bar Association nor the general BA in Madrid are doing anything if I were you I would speak with my ambassador and exert pressure and pressure and more pressure.

    I would create a platform of expats who’ve had the same problem as me. I would also speak with Euro Mps, the media etc… Under pressure they would have to react and sanction, something which -apparently- isn’t being enforced currently. The laws and regulating body measures are there but not being put to good use, at best …

  • #67583
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Have just noticed how this page 3 is right off-topic 😆
    Apologies to original poster….

    so, to be back on track….wonder if Chris M. will do us the honour of returning to the forum for some more questions?
    He was so accomodating/thorough in the Summer in explaining the reasoning behind Viva’s ‘new strategy’.

    Would love to hear his view now….

  • #67584
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Draken,
    I have no doubt that you feel very passionately about the reputation of your profession and indeed you should. I for one do not take it on you infact I admire that in you that despite all the negative you stand for the profession.

    Its allways the one bad apple and that where if the collegio de Abagado comes into play. There are good/bad lawyers like in every profession good & bad can be relative. However down right corrupt is another matter.

    I cannot speak for others I for one do not go around the that this the way it happens in Uk so its right.

    In the the case of the lawyers it does not matter where they are! If they are providing their sevices and looking after the clients interest as paramount. ( The law will be different in different in countries)

    E.g on the subject of the Bank Guarantee, Wether its an English/French/Spanish etc. The lawyer has to obtain its part of the law, and it is not even a clause of a contract that can be argued about.

    I can assure you that the law society works in Uk. I bought a property in Spain in 2000, and used a lawyer who has an office in London/Marbellla .
    ( Please note that I did this as I knew if the Spanish lawyer messed it the collgio will do nothing about it)

    Guess what the Spanish part of the firm did not do the following:

    1) attached plans of the unbinasation to the contract .i.e.where there will be the swmming pools, no of trees etc.

    2) Forgot to incorporate late penalty cluase despite of having a letter from the developer.

    When, I threatned the English side of the firm to the law society. The firm paid up the delayed completion amount.

    In so far as the Agents commission wether they are English or Spanish you know its a subject of disscion on the forum and things are being done.

    Finally, I am sorry as the agents in which ever Country or product they act for they have a reputation and as their profession is not held in high esteem or do not have a supervisory body its not a fair comparison with the legal profession.

    ir

  • #67585
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Drakan wrote:

    I would create a platform of expats who’ve had the same problem as me. I would also speak with Euro Mps, the media etc… Under pressure they would have to react and sanction, something which -apparently- isn’t being enforced currently. The laws and regulating body measures are there but not being put to good use, at best …

    Drakan, I’m afraid after 3 years of stress, endless letters, visits to Spain to have arguments with the old lawyers and sorting out a new one, frustration, sleepless nights and a court case, now my nightmare is all over I just don’t have the energy/mental enthusiasm left any more to do what you suggest.
    I have a new life on a Greek island, I’m in the middle of having a house built (have a great Greek lawyer by the way who wont let me spend a penny unless he ok’s it… 😉 ) and am trying to get a new business off the ground. That is all where my main energy is concentrated now.

    However, for any of you out there who are still in the middle of their nightmare…….Drakan’s suggestion is spot on in my opinion.
    This time last year I would have been up for organising something, but am afraid I just have no more petrol in the tank for Spain.

    Am sure there are plenty out there who do ???

  • #67586
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    Have just noticed how this page 3 is right off-topic 😆
    Apologies to original poster….

    so, to be back on track….wonder if Chris M. will do us the honour of returning to the forum for some more questions?
    He was so accomodating/thorough in the Summer in explaining the reasoning behind Viva’s ‘new strategy’.

    Would love to hear his view now….

    Thanks Charlie! I originally posted wondering if Cm’s departure was in relation to the failure or otherwise of his 2/3% listing policy, and wondered if Viva are going to continue with the policy…

    Anyone know?

  • #67590
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    jvmills wrote: Thanks Charlie! I originally posted wondering if Cm’s departure was in relation to the failure or otherwise of his 2/3% listing policy, and wondered if Viva are going to continue with the policy…

    I know for a fact that many properties they have listed still have the original levels of commission proir to any talk of reduction, guess its very hard if existing vendors wont sign up to the new contract (and who would blame them) to remove them all and have little or no resale stock.

    Jim

  • #67591
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    My daughter received a call from them asking her to pay upfront and she declined, the house was then removed from their listings. I did a search last week and from 500,000 to 700,000 euros in Marbella area they only had 6 villas!! They all looked overpriced too.

    Viva are have many in their ads saying “advertised for 18 months and sold within 4 days at new commission rate…umhhh…I can imagine that a difference of around 8000, euros would prompt such a quick sale, most vendors would come down that amount anyway.

    I would have thought there would have been a whistleblower on here 🙂

  • #67606
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Drakan wrote:

    if you charge less than 1% you will probably be sued by fellow law firms and lawyers for “competencia desleal” if not by the Bar Association itself

    @Jude wrote:

    I am interested in your reply regarding the lawyers cartel operating in Spain regarding fees. One would imagine the fixing of fees is illegal. There are lawyers advertising fees lower than 1%.

    Jude

    Sorry to go off topic again but I would also be interested in more information about this cartel. I always felt that 1% was a figure pulled out of the air and had no direct relation to the amount of work carried out. Perhaps Mark could shed some light on this subject?

  • #67611
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Ley 3/1991…..de Competencia Desleal.

    Article 1 of the Law…………..The present law intends the protection of the competition in interest of all those that participate in the market, and to such aim it establishes the prohibition of the acts of disloyal competition 🙄

    Lawyers looking after their own pocket………
    http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/spanish_ … arging.htm

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