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This topic contains 23 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 3 years, 8 months ago.

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  • #57377
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    A friend of mine bought an apartment in Marbella for €170,000 from Fadesa, The purchase was finalised last winters with a discount of around 30%. ( I understand due to Martinsa legal position they are not allowed to sell the properties lower or higher than a price fixed by the Courts )

    A few weeks ago he was contacted by the Hacienda demanding another €25,000 being under paid tax. The valuation placed by the Hacienda is €353,000.

    I know we have discussed this on the forum from all aspects. What is the forums current view on this ? Should he/Gestor have consulted the Hacienda before hand ? I doubt that Hacienda would have given anything in writing before my friend proceeded.

  • #116538
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I think it’s wrong but it’s just the way it is. Someone should challenge this in EU court because Spain will do nothing about it. Their “numbers” are impossible to calculate on beforehand so a “gestor” would never be able to say anything except maybe warn you that something like this occurs freequently in Spain. The better the deal you get the bigger the risk is to get hefty “fines” from them thinking you have underdeclared.

  • #116539
    Profile photo of marios
    marios
    Participant

    @shakeel wrote:

    A friend of mine bought an apartment in Marbella for €170,000 from Fadesa, The purchase was finalised last winters with a discount of around 30%. ( I understand due to Martinsa legal position they are not allowed to sell the properties lower or higher than a price fixed by the Courts )

    A few weeks ago he was contacted by the Hacienda demanding another €25,000 being under paid tax. The valuation placed by the Hacienda is €353,000.

    I know we have discussed this on the forum from all aspects. What is the forums current view on this ? Should he/Gestor have consulted the Hacienda before hand ? I doubt that Hacienda would have given anything in writing before my friend proceeded.

    I think its scandalous, why should the Hacienda have the right to say what the correct valuation is, so do we ever hear of anyone getting tax back for over declaring-NO

  • #116540
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    It happens all the time though… ;(

  • #116543
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’ve heard of lots of cases, though never such a big bill. It’s appalling. The Spanish tax authorities seem to be out of control. They can do what they like, fine anyone for whatever they see fit, with no oversight or clear rules. It’s shocking.

  • #116544
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    your friend could have consulted Hacienda beforehand 😳 😳 😳 😳 anyway, this can be challenged quite easily with the ample evidence of price plunges in the area. You just need the right lawyer or accountant 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 …..

  • #116546
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @UBEDA wrote:

    your friend could have consulted Hacienda beforehand 😳 😳 😳 😳 anyway, this can be challenged quite easily with the ample evidence of price plunges in the area. You just need the right lawyer or accountant 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 …..

    Do you have first hand experience of quickly and cheaply getting Hacienda to back down? I don’t and haven’t heard of anyone who has. If anything, I’ve heard the opposite.

  • #116549
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    UBEDA you are just so wrong in your comments about this. We tried several times to get info on several “transfers” before going through with them but they simply refused. Not heard anyone having any sucess with contesting the “fees” either.

  • #116550
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “I doubt that Hacienda would have given anything in writing before my friend proceeded.”

    Consulting the “Hacienda” would have only benefited if one had something concrete
    from them i.e. in writing. No Spaniard would give you anything in writing in a normal course of events. To get from Hacienda would be pigs flying.

    My, posting knowing the bloody mindedness of the Spaniards & unaccountable Spanish civil service was just to if anything has been done.

    @Mark €353-€170=€183k x11%=€20,130 + (penalty + interest ) could come to the €25k the Hacienda is demanding.,

  • #116551
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I haven’t heard of anyone winning an appeal either. Infact our honest Lawyer said he would take the case but it would cost at least €800 including costs for valuer etc. He said we would be throwing good money after bad.

  • #116554
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    It would be worth spending 500 euros to place hard-hitting advertisements about this issue in various real estate publications (print, web, maybe even a billboard) to SHAME those in power. If the ‘big players’ in the real estate industry are motivated enough, they will put pressure on the tax authorities to resolve this issue.

  • #116556
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Sorry, but most buyers will consult the “oficina de liquidadora” to ascertain what price they can declare; ie this is for the Spaniards and others who are using black money – still widely used 😐 😐 – in any event your lawyer should also check to see what the level is, especially now that prices haven fallen by 40 – 90%. Don’t use cheap lawyers and they’ll include this extra work in their initial fee , and don’t let your friendly agent recommend his tame lawyer:).

    Personal experience?; no, but i know for a fact that local lawyers do fight and won these cases for their customers.

  • #116557
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    It’s simple get a good lawyer. Hard to find I know. They will advise you to pay upfront at the time of purchase because they know the claw back will happen later.

    They have the better estimate of how the Hacienda will value the property.

  • #116558
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The interesting thing here is that Martin SA prices of land, industrial sites, properties etc had been valued by the Courts. Martinsa cannot sell the properties at a higher or lower price.

    So it should be quite easy to show to the Hacienda that the seller is Matinsa. & not a little Manolo spending his “dinero negro” in the local “pute club”

    @Ubeda: “Sorry, but most buyers will consult the “oficina de liquidadora” to ascertain what price they can declare”

    All very well to say. So how would it work ? & this what I mean will the “oficina de Liquidora” give a valuation in writing stamped etc ? I suppose it is connected to the Hacienda ? whose valuation will carry more weight ?

    @Gary: When it comes to money an average Spaniard is as thick skin as anybody else on the planet. So shaming will not work. Do you not think the shame, the disgrace & the economical mess has not shamed them to take some concrete, transparent, jointed measure by now. They had a very good PR opportunity in righting the Prior’s as a starter.

    Why should the big players motivated ? There are not many big players left & the ones who are there have frankly washed their hands with the sector for decades to come.

  • #116569
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    They’re not just picking on the expats, their last bail-out had certain conditions attached to it – to collect more taxes, by foul means or fair.

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=136453779868823&set=vb.100005126042212&type=2&theater

    This Spaniard understands what’s happening, and he’s not happy about it.

  • #116570
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    @Gary: When it comes to money an average Spaniard is as thick skin as anybody else on the planet. So shaming will not work. Do you not think the shame, the disgrace & the economical mess has not shamed them to take some concrete, transparent, jointed measure by now. They had a very good PR opportunity in righting the Prior’s as a starter.

    If I purchased a billboard ad near the development and also a few well-placed internet ads on idealista, etc, ads that said something like “Beware of purchasing from Fadesa because I had to pay 25k extra” don’t you think that Fadesa would be pounding on my door and that of city hall to deal with this? You can’t shame a bureaucrat – but you certainly can motivate others to apply pressure.

  • #116571
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I am at no stage sugguesting that this issue is with non residents only. The switched on Spaniards would not touch these properties as they are well aware that they were built for the foreign market in area for them & at prices to suit them.

    A typical Spanish towns will not have these issues as there will be valuation established by the Hacienda for a while. ( my friend’s property was one of the illegal ones that was issued with LFO etc only a year or ago )

  • #116577
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    People (especially in the media) seem far more worried about possible hair-cuts on bank accounts over 100k.
    There will be the odd person caught out, but most of us can avoid having over 100k in one account…
    But things like stamp duty and cgt – these are the real areas where we can get hammered, and yet few seem bothered about it. 🙄

  • #116590
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @shakeel wrote:

    A friend of mine bought an apartment in Marbella for €170,000 from Fadesa, The purchase was finalised last winters with a discount of around 30%. ( I understand due to Martinsa legal position they are not allowed to sell the properties lower or higher than a price fixed by the Courts )

    A few weeks ago he was contacted by the Hacienda demanding another €25,000 being under paid tax. The valuation placed by the Hacienda is €353,000.

    I know we have discussed this on the forum from all aspects. What is the forums current view on this ? Should he/Gestor have consulted the Hacienda before hand ? I doubt that Hacienda would have given anything in writing before my friend proceeded.

    Yes the lawyer or gestor should have found out. Hacienda does give it in writing. All they gestor or lawyer would have needed to find out is the catastral details

    @Ardun wrote:

    I think it’s wrong but it’s just the way it is. Someone should challenge this in EU court because Spain will do nothing about it. Their “numbers” are impossible to calculate on beforehand so a “gestor” would never be able to say anything except maybe warn you that something like this occurs freequently in Spain. The better the deal you get the bigger the risk is to get hefty “fines” from them thinking you have underdeclared.

    Sorry Ardun, but it is a straight forward process to find out what the figure is.

    @katy wrote:

    I haven’t heard of anyone winning an appeal either. Infact our honest Lawyer said he would take the case but it would cost at least €800 including costs for valuer etc. He said we would be throwing good money after bad.

    you can as long as:
    you valuation/price is within 10% of haciendas.
    Or you can show that due to deterioation, etc… the figure you bought for actually reflects the properties current state.
    not easy, but still……

  • #106946
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @fuengi: They can find out from the Hacienda the value. However if this price is higher than the price that is being paid. Will the Hacienda accept the lower price which the buyer will be paying ? I fear not !!!

    Where, the Hacienda gives a valuation in writing which as we all know will be hopelessly out of date. What good or how practical this report will be to a prospective buyer ?

    If the Gestor or lawyer says to the Hacienda that price X has been agreed ( lower than the valuation ) & can the Hacienda give this in writing before we go to the Notarty than it would be meaningful

  • #106947
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @shakeel wrote:

    @fuengi: They can find out from the Hacienda the value. However if this price is higher than the price that is being paid. Will the Hacienda accept the lower price which the buyer will be paying ? I fear not !!!

    unfortunately, I never said otherwise, although there is a margin to argue, just not much.

    @shakeel wrote:

    Where, the Hacienda gives a valuation in writing which as we all know will be hopelessly out of date. What good or how practical this report will be to a prospective buyer ?

    incorrect. the valuations given if requested are quite accurate. To date, not one we have requested has ever been ‘out of date’.

    @shakeel wrote:

    If the Gestor or lawyer says to the Hacienda that price X has been agreed ( lower than the valuation ) & can the Hacienda give this in writing before we go to the Notarty than it would be meaningful

    That’s the point Shakeel. Your friends gestor/lawyer should have had the exact figure within days of requesting it. The lawyer either did not check or did not tell…

  • #116591
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “incorrect. the valuations given if requested are quite accurate. To date, not one we have requested has ever been ‘out of date “

    @fuengi. What do you mean by quite accurate. Has the Hacienda reduced the valuation to reflect the current state of the market ?

    As my friend paid €174k & hacienda valuation is €353, this by any stretch of imagination is far from quite accurate.

  • #116592
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    Hi Shakeel, I misunderstood. I thought you meant their valuation figure was out of date in the sense that they did not give the correct figure of what they thought it was worth.

    Their figure they give as nothing to do with market prices, agreed.

  • #116593
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @fuengi: phewwwwwwwwwww. I am glad we got there.

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