Two judges give opposing rulings!!

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This topic contains 104 replies, has 15 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 9 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #53145
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    It’s all coming to a head:

    Green Hills (case lost) and Los Lagos (case won) – confusion on the Costa del Sol after two judges gave opposing rulings regarding the purchase of illegally built homes.

    A court in Marbella has ruled in favour of the buyers of a flat (Los Lagos) built with an illegal licence and without a escritura.

    Now the Málaga Provincial Court will have to decide a common ruling for both cases. Judicial sources think that there are hundreds more similar cases still to be heard in the courts of Marbella.

    http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_12446.shtml

  • #74991
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Charlie
    Would like to see the actual ruling on this newspaper ?report.
    Am aware that some were taking the developer to court as the apartments were undersized and was informed before that they had a good case.
    If its not these and this is a general ruling as you say this will really set things alight.
    How many developers will be in a financial position to pay multi claims ?not this one thats for sure.
    Bet the big boys that in theory could pay out are looking at this and hopefully they may not be so cocky and start to look at real genuine cases.

    Frank 8)

  • #74993
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Just Frank wrote:

    Bet the big boys that in theory could pay out are looking at this and hopefully they may not be so cocky and start to look at real genuine cases.

    Like Aifos and Pennaroya?
    Would be good if they did but wouldn’t hold your breathe. They’re ‘chancers’ in my view.

  • #75002
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Charlie

    Aifos would probably fold however the Pennaroya situation may be different as they are mega.
    Suprised by the lack of responce to this news as to me it seems very much a very important post.

    Frank 8)

  • #75003
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    This goes back to my posting about this on another thread – I feel the Marbella court is too close and a precedent will have to be set. However no lower judge wants to deal with it and this way it will get refered higher up

    I know Maria del Castro said about the law being a civil code (statute) as opposed to common law (precedent) but I think this is being tried internally.

    Also if in one case the developer bought land with project and license that they bought in good faith and beleived to be correct, then why should they be held culpable as opposed to the developer who actively knew what he was doing.

    Very complex and will run and run meethinks

  • #75004
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Inez
    Yes indeed 100% agree.
    Does anyone know if the developer appealed on the positive result on Los Lagos ?
    I would assume that they two would then take it to a higher court as this judge to may have been out of their depth.

    Frank 8)

  • #75009
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @inez wrote:

    Also if in one case the developer bought land with project and license that they bought in good faith and beleived to be correct, then why should they be held culpable…..

    Inez – for a very good reason!! Everyone involved in the many purchases/sales of this land knew very well that in the original Junta’s PGOU plan it was shown to be designated only for 12 townhouses, public gardens, parks and roads – and that bribes were paid to have the building licence changed to 192 apts.

    The Italian caught up in the current Malaya scandal, Giovanni Montaldo, was in charge of a company called Apex 2000, the estate arm of Iberdrola. They owned the land where Green Hills is now, with the original building licence for the townhouses.
    It was Montaldo who then, via the corrupt mayor Gil, got the b/l changed to 12 blocks of apartments. And this was not the only b/l he ‘changed’ in this way – hence his arrest in the recent corruption scandal.

    With this illegally-gained but now very-valuable new building licence, he then sold on the land+licence to a complicated web of several companies like Sur Inversiones Semma, Arquigest 2003 to eventually its final owner. Note several directors belonged to all these companies. Same men, just different company names.
    Innocent and not culpable – not in my book. These men, spending millions on buying this land with such a licence, knew full well bribes were paid to Gil to obtain a building licence that went against the original PGOU.
    They indulged in all the corruption and now their ‘gamble’ has come back to bite them firmly on the backside.
    How do I know they knew the exact circumstances of the way this b/l was obtained? At a face-to-face meeting with one of the directors, way before the corruption scandal erupted, I asked him and he told me.

    There are some people who keep saying the developers are innocent (a line often used by the developers themselves in court), that it’s the Town Hall lot who were corrupt. Well who was it supplying the ‘brown envelopes’?! 🙄

  • #75011
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Good points Charlie. The Developers were the investors who bribed their way into making fortunes. They are the ones who took a gamble and they had all the information which the small buyers never did. The Developers thought it would never end but they got too greedy and the Junta stepped in.

  • #75014
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    Hi Charlie – I was generalizing not really relating it to this particualr one. I dont know anywhere near as much as yourself and others who are directly involved but just wanted to make the point that if an ‘innocent’ real actual developer bought the land with the bought for licenses, checked by a local lawyer and then in good faith built on the land then should he be penalized.

    I totally agree that really the authorities are the ones that should shoulder the blame as it was their guys in power allowing this to be done.

    I also beleive the corruption goes far higher as I can see how anyone from Seville NEVER came here to check what was going on etc!

  • #75015
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I remember sometime in the 90’s during the time of GIL the Junta began to criticise marbella council. Gil countered their claim by naming a high-up person in the Junta who he had been bribing. After the initial press articles it sort of died in the media.

  • #75017
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    After the initial press articles it sort of died in the media.

    Katy, no surprises there then. 😆
    There are not many who do not have a sticky finger from having it in the pie – and it’s certainly not just in Marbella where halos are firmly round their necks, that’s for sure.

    Hi Inez – I take on board your pint – your point even (!) – about generalizing. But can I ask one thing. At what point does a developer shelve responsibility? These are business men for goodness sake with often millions of euros investment involved when buying land to develop. Are you telling me that it is beyond their responsibility and capability to check (or for their lawyer to check) that the land they are buying has the appropriate licence that is in accordance with the 1986 PGOU plan of the Junta? It really is not rocket science for a lawyer to simply check this, and in my view if they didn’t check this (or turned a blind eye) then they are culpable.

    Hate disagreeing with you ‘cos I think your posts are great (to the point and honest….despite being a professional :wink:) , but on this one think we’ll have to agree to differ. Just can’t see how there can ever be an ‘innocent’ real estate developer – it’s his responsibility to have the checks done, it’s part of his professional job.
    Will split a bottle when I’m next over to show no hard feelings!

    By the way, have decided against Morocco (remember?) – any other suggestions??!! And no, not interested in two great off-plans at half-price THANKyou.

  • #75023
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    Sur in english has an article on page 3 about this

  • #75025
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Charlie

    While the judges in both case may be aware of the situation you portray (corruption, bribes etc) clearly in both cases this could not be considered as it wasn’t the point of the hearing. The judge in both case would have had to look at the case before him/her bases on the evidence placed before them.

    We on the other hand are judging it based on the fact as we see them which includes hearsay, not permissible in any court.

    Regards

    Paul

  • #75038
    Profile photo of mariadecastro
    mariadecastro
    Participant

    Again: Spain and the UK have different legal systems and it is very frequent in Spain to have first and second instance judges rulling in opposite ways.

    We have got a system where case law is a complimnet of the legal sources system and where Law ( codes, written law) is the first in the hierarchy. So different judges, with difference defense and different evidences can decide differently.

  • #75042
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    And I guess the defendant with the heaviest brown envelope gets the judgement! 😆
    Hi Charlie, I totally agree with you, they should check things out thoroughly but lets say they did, then decided to take a chance on the basis that the Town hall big boys promise that everything will be fine, a couple of apartments get given over to the family of said guys and then the doodah hits the fan!

    Is the developer still ‘guilty’ I except the answer is yes if you use actions and consequences as the rule, but unfortunately nowadays with clever lawerys and no doubt more big brown envelopes still around there is no telling.

    Somehow I just feel its the legal systems way to get the issue to a higher court unfortunatley I dont know enough about the system here – shame as I am 2 years qualified in the UK!!! and really should take more of an interest, but if the higher court is in Seville and then Madrid, it would seem to me to be a test case at the same time getting it out of Marbella! And also if one of the judges had a relative with property caught up in the case he as trying – would that have a bearing! One wouldlike to think not…….!!!

  • #75043
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    ps not sure about Morocco – nightmare dealing over there, makes Spain seem positively civilized! ps Eastern Portugal is doing quite well and also Ital – the adriatic side, beautiful place – I was there in July for a working holiday (well, worked for 2 hours!)

    Am concentrating here to be honest as its where I know, feel comfortable and in view of how business has picked up (not massively, Im not making wild claims here you understand but its gone from an average of 3 phonecalls a day with 2 being advertising to 7 or 8 with interest showing in buying) I would rather dance with the devil I know

    Personally I have confidence here and as prices come down we are making sales – no secret in that old theory!

    Have a great weekend guys

  • #75044
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Inez – I’ve been searching on the net for this beautiful place called Ital, but all I can find are Rastafarian cooking recipies ❗ 😆 Sorry for going “off topic” ❗

  • #75045
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi All
    Comments from my solicitor who is on holiday and further brings about the reality in Charlies thread on this matter.
    This could be just the two cases that will swing it one way or another and as said I will bet most of the developers will be glued to this.

    Hi Frank
    Thanks for the emails and back in the office next week.

    I can see these cases going to the European Court of Human Rights at this rate, but I don’t see how they can even unravel this mess!

    Just gets better and better, I really can not see how they can resolve this, as yes they are illegal builds in the eyes of the County Council but not in the eyes of the town hall who granted the building licences. How can a judge in Malaga go against either of the judges in Marbella!!!
    The fact is that they are on about just these one or two developments as they appear to be taking the flack for eveyone when there are many many more in a far worse state.

    God help us, think I’ll stay where I am!

    Luv xxxxx

    Frank 8)

  • #75046
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    Oh bother – Itll teach me to come to work on a saturday! Trying to concentrate on finishing the catalogue but strangely I keep getting lured away to a couple of forums and watching the paint dry!

    You know I meant Itlee, not itlee bay but the hotter palce with the sgetti in!

  • #75064
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Just Frank wrote:

    yes they are illegal builds in the eyes of the County Council but not in the eyes of the town hall who granted the building licences.

    And for me, this is the whole crux of the matter Frank.
    The people behind ‘the eyes’ of the town hall have all been arrested, and the ‘big white chief’ of them all is in prison.
    So does their issuing of these licences have any relevance when weighing up what is legal and what is not?
    I would have thought the actions/decisions of ‘criminals’ does not balance out the actions/decisions of the Junta de Andalucia.
    Just my simplistic (layman) way of looking at things.

  • #75216
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    BUYERS WANT OUT
    Purchasers of illegal properties want courts to cancel their contracts

    By David Eade

    HUNDREDS of purchasers of illegal houses and apartments in Marbella are looking to the local courts to annul their contracts with the developers. As reported in the Costa del Sol News last week a Marbella judge rejected an attempt by two Britons to cancel their purchase of an illegal flat in the Santa María Green Hills area of Elviria Sur. Yet just days later another judge in a different Marbella court ruled in favour of the purchasers in an adjacent development also in Elviria Sur.
    While in the case of the two British buyers they were told they had to proceed with their purchase, in the other one, the developers of Los Lagos de Santa María Golf were ordered by the judge handling that case to hand back 292,000 euros plus interest to the buyers. This court case was started in February of last year because the flat was not handed over on time and here the judge ruled that problems involving a development should not be passed on to the buyers.
    The Britons can appeal the court ruling against them but equally the developer might appeal in the second case. This apparent contradiction has raised voices of alarm in Spain’s legal world and leaves worried buyers with the feeling that justice appears, at present, to be a flexible affair in which the outcome of their court cases could go either way.
    Many of those who have been caught up in this net, where properties have not been granted a licence of first occupation and the construction licence may have been illegal in the first place, did so unknowingly back in the Gil-era or post Gil-era when the violation of the town planning laws was the norm.
    The majority of these properties have now been deemed illegal by the courts, which has left the purchasers in an impossible position with some of the residences facing demolition. Nearly all of these properties have been completed and, while the purchasers are refusing to sign the deeds and are looking to the courts for support, the developers are insisting that they comply with their contracts.
    Many British buyers are using the internet to air their grievances and a number of websites have been established that give Britons the current state of play on many illegal Marbella developments. The banks have also come in for a good deal of criticism for lending money for mortgages on illegal homes, a practice that has been described on the internet as third world corruption on a grand scale.For now the buck stops with the Marbella courts where purchasers are demanding that justice is done. Unless a legal solution can come to the aid of the purchasers of illegal homes then the damage to the Costa del Sol’s property market and that of wider Spain could be immense.

  • #75313
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @tilly wrote:

    …. the developers of Los Lagos de Santa María Golf were ordered by the judge handling that case to hand back 292,000 euros plus interest to the buyers.

    292,000 Euros can’t be a deposit. Does this mean that the purchasers had completed & then got their money back…or am I misunderstanding something here
    ❓ ❓

  • #75314
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    They could have paid several instalments, leaving a final payment of 10/ 20/30%. I do not think 292 euros would have bought an apartment at Los Lagos 2 or 3 years ago. It may do now !! 😉

  • #75315
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    It is probably stage payments ie deposit + 30%+20%+20%.

  • #75319
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Muchas gracias. I see off-plan penthouses there were E400,000 four years ago.

  • #75322
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne 😉
    435.000 euros for and east facing 114 sqm2 penthouse apartment.
    Add the 20,000 euros if you didnt agree with the stage payments
    Add say 10% for the buy costs and the same to sell then the approx sale price would be around 545,000 euros to break even (excluding any interest payments) no wonder some are predicting a property crash and why some are fighting so hard to get their money back.
    On a brighter note they could have bought a 3 bed ground floor around the back for 492,000 where the apartment size is 114 sqm2
    Pity these now trying to sell at around 620,000 sale price on the same basis.
    Think we can tell why there is soooo much interest and bad press on this development.

    Frank 8)

  • #75323
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Charlie 🙂

    Just Frank wrote:
    yes they are illegal builds in the eyes of the County Council but not in the eyes of the town hall who granted the building licences.

    Charlies reply.
    And for me, this is the whole crux of the matter Frank.
    The people behind ‘the eyes’ of the town hall have all been arrested, and the ‘big white chief’ of them all is in prison.
    So does their issuing of these licences have any relevance when weighing up what is legal and what is not?
    I would have thought the actions/decisions of ‘criminals’ does not balance out the actions/decisions of the Junta de Andalucia.
    Just my simplistic (layman) way of looking at things.

    Charlie.
    Totally agree however also as a layman and looking at reality the clock cant be turned back.
    Someone murders you and they are a criminal and get sent to prison however your still dead.
    They received the PLANNING PERMISSION by whatever means and( yes some are criminals) similar goes on in every country in world and we cant change the world either.(Greed ,corruption, make lots of dosh,dont get caught and they say your a V.I.P) as your loaded.

    Also my simplistic (layman) way of looking at things

    Wish yours was right though 😉

    Frank 😉

  • #75325
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Someone murders you and they are a criminal and get sent to prison however your still dead.

    Dying cannot be retrospective.

    Charlie.
    Totally agree however also as a layman and looking at reality the clock cant be turned back.

    Why do you say that ❓ Of course it can. That’s what we are all fighting for isn’t it ❓

    Someone murders you and they are a criminal and get sent to prison however your still dead.
    They received the PLANNING PERMISSION by whatever means and( yes some are criminals) similar goes on in every country in world and we cant change the world either.(Greed ,corruption, make lots of dosh,dont get caught and they say your a V.I.P) as your loaded

    .

    Correcting a situation caused by obtaining planning permission by unscrupulous (criminal) measures can be retrospective. (It can be corrected) This situation (illegal building) is unacceptable.

  • #75326
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Claire
    As both Charlie and I have said we are both looking at it from layman’s terms.
    However that does not stop either of us keeping up the fight for change.
    Reality will mean that 95% of these so called Illegal builds have planning permission and will soon be granted the paper work.
    Those that don’t get the paper work and their property gets demolished may have a good claim for compensation ,if they have completed
    Reality is that if the developer goes bankrupt those that haven’t completed will loose their money paid to date.
    Those that choose to pay vast legal bills and hope that somehow this so called legal system will help them get justice may win but being a betting man my money wouldn’t be on it.
    Reality is that the L.F O issue cant win as it simply cant afford to be won and I hate it as much as anyone ,but hey this is only my opinion here.
    Unless you really have a case where there are blatant issues of under sizing of property that not in agreement with the deeds then there are clear problems ahead.
    Just this week we have seen what a threat of just one law suite can do to those that wish to expose the problems.
    Now if you have any really bright ideas on how we can reverse this please speak up.
    Taking snips from this posting and turning it into something its not intended to be represent will do nothing.
    The editor deleting this posting will do nothing and all we can do is together fight the system,not each other or an individual developer or real estate company.
    Thats something that they cant stop and that something that goes right to the heart of the problem

    Frank 8)

  • #75327
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    We are (mostly) all layman when it comes to legal matters…giving an opinion. 😉
    Bearing in mind your comments above, what is your stance now on your La Reserva property? Are you abandoning your court case and therefore completing on your apartment and paying all of your back dated community charges?
    There are many reasons other than being short changed in square footage and lack of the LFO that warrants proceeding with a claim against developers.

  • #75328
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Just Frank wrote:

    …..all we can do is together fight the system,not each other…..
    Frank 8)

    How very true Frank. Speaking personally, the last 4 years of dealing with my Spanish property problems have had an enormous negative impact on my life in many areas. This damage cannot be reversed but we can all continue to fight for future justice together and support eachother. As you say, a lot of damage has been done in the process, & there is no magical pill or ruling that can undo this.

  • #75333
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne
    How right you are. 😉
    Cases of individuals companies issueing gagging orders will increase as the legal sytems is now making noises of long prison sentences and they will wish to be out of the headlights.
    Rather more difficult for the legal system itself to do the same 🙂

    Frank 8)

  • #75337
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    And unfortunately there are futher issues to be taken into account. Whilst the pgou has been ‘issued’ for the people to see and comment on, it still has to be accepted by the Junta de Andalucia.

    The Marbella Town Hall want most to be declared legal and the naughty developers to recompense the area by buying replacement land. The Junta want more demolitions – so not quite done and dusted yet and it still will be argued over and taken to a higher mummy to have heads knocked together and told to play nicely together. Thats all well and good BUT there is a BUT

    If the developer who built these illegal dwellings (love that word) decides NOT to play fairly and goes bankrupt, winds up the company THEN the onus of buying the land to recompense the area will fall onto – tadadadada – the owners who have already bought and paid (or are paying via mortgage) their homes!

    Obviously this will equate to those whole developments being effectively unsaleable as no one will want to take on a future lengthy and expensive legal case OR pay out millions for the developers greed!

    So while I agree to just get on with it and yes money will ALWAYS bring greed and corruption, it does seem like the little people (myself included!) will be yet again paying the price.

    I think I will stop paying the mortgage and let the bank repossess – let them worry about it!!!!!

  • #75339
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hey Inez,
    This is not like you to raise a white flag. You must have got off the wrong side of the bed this morning !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • #75340
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Good point Inez!

  • #75341
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Inez
    Close call on,risk loosing the deposit money when the developer goes belly up against an 80 % interest only mortgage.
    Suppose its down to the individual to decide which way to go in this farce,one thing for sure, which you have pointed out there will be many that leave it to the banks if your forcast become reality.
    Think that if and when they realise this they will have to wake up and act or the S—t will really hit the fan.

    Frank 8)

  • #75342
    Profile photo of mike
    mike
    Participant

    @inez wrote:

    I think I will stop paying the mortgage and let the bank repossess – let them worry about it!!!!!

    I’m sorry if you have to take a loss, Inez, but would it be as simple as you suggest?

    Do you have any other assets that the banks could take to make up for their loss. I’m not wishing anything on you, it’s just that someone I knew was led into believing that bankruptcy was an easy option but he had a house with equity and he got ripped off by shady dealers. That was in the UK, though, the law is probably different in Spain but I don’t know how.

  • #75343
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I have heard of people who stop paying the mortgage, leave the keys & get on a ‘plane pronto, thinking the debt will stay on the property only.
    What a carry on ❗
    😕 😕 😕

  • #75344
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    Gosh that did raise a few queries didnt it!

    No not out of the wrong side of the bed this morning – luckily a busy day and fingers crossed a couple of sales as well BUT I have to look at the future and face reality myself!

    I bought the house as a resale, not offplan and with the fullest of finance, so apart form the payments I have made thus far I would lose nothing (except perhaps my pride)

    I have no other assets in my name and I am unsire if they can come after me in other areas assuming they do not reach the mortgage reserve on the sale.

    In the UK in the good old days you could declare bankruptcy and the courts would decide on each individual case – usually leaving the house etc. Now if you default and the bank do not get their full debt paid back via auction then the outstanding amount is for you to pay off. Here I think it is not yet like that but I am checking

    Even if I could resell the house on, now this licensing crap is out in the open, any lawyer would and should advise their client about the possible and very real threat of a future big payout to the town hall or at the very least a lengthy court case – who would want that, and certainly not I so perhaps it is wise to cut and run now.

    After all what about my freedom of movement if I wanted to change property I would not be able to do so.

    I really dont think this is merely a forecast – I am on the ground here and in with the Spanish so am keeping my ears and eyes open.

    Its a tough call and with the payments about to leap up massively as well, I think I will buy in another country!!

    I am happy to keep you all updated about this and yes there are loads cutting and running, I had one client on today ready to pay any outstanding monies if we can shift her proeprty as finally she has ealized that every month on is one a mortgage and community fees have to be paid! She is already 2 months behind!

    Not looking good guys!

  • #75358
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Here’s the question

    What would happen if as an owner or indeed a community of owners don’t pay reparations to the town hall. What are the courts gonna do, repossess all of the homes involved?

    Personally i don’t think it will happen the politicians need votes and it’s one thing going after the greedy developers another going after voters and those that bring money to the region.

    Regards

    Paul

  • #75361
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    Good question, no one really knows but its for sure there will not be an amnesty and therefore the issue will drag on for years, meaning it will be impossible to sell your house – so what happens if youhave to relocate or due to financial situations or marriage break up have to sell??

    I would love to hear the perspective from a legal eagle on here!

  • #75362
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    so what happens if youhave to relocate or due to financial situations or marriage break up have to sell??

    Sell leaving a bond?

  • #75363
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    Well it is an option I would think but if you need the money for a deposit on somewhere else, or have no equity in the property?

    Its a tough one.

    I think the only bond I could run to would a tea bag – Brooke Bond!

    (hey unless James Bond was out there to rescue me… mmmmmmmm!)

  • #75366
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    if you need the money for a deposit on somewhere else, or have no equity in the property

    Then you’re stuffed, the ex spouse can only have half of whats available i suppose.

    like i say i doubt it will happen, uncertainty always pushes prices down that’s why most of these rumours are started. I notice in the UK and Spain adverts by companies willing to buy you out of trouble, if you can’t afford the mortgage. These kind people will even rent you your property back if you have nowhere to live …. bless

    Regards

    Paul

  • #75367
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    Yes Ive seen those – bit mad cos how creditworthy could you be if you couldnt pay your mortage anyway?

    And wont the ‘new’ mortgage and threefore the payments be the same as they were when you defaulted??

  • #75368
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant
    And wont the 'new' mortgage and threefore the payments be the same as they were when you defaulted??

    No, they offer to rent it back to the old owner, no doubt some sort of restricted lease agreement

  • #75369
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Inez
    Right so the situation is. 🙂 😕 😕 😕 😕
    If you have a property that for one reason or another it’s classed as illegal. 🙁
    Now you can’t sell it as the banks will not lend against it so that being the case the developer can’t sell it to you even if he pressures you or wins a court case unless you have cash(with you picking up the costs) 😕
    You can’t sell before completion 😕
    So he wins and you can’t complete as you can’t get a mortgage (that chance has gone) 😕
    Now what does the developer do then? Sue you 😕
    Now say the developer looses, he can’t give you your money back and attempt to fund this from re-selling it’s as officially illegal and not able to get a mortgage 😕
    So the other option is to sit it out until this government takes years to sort what’s legal and what’s not in this swapsey arrangement and in the meantime most will go to the wall. 😕
    Now call me cynical but if anyone can suggest where we go from here I would welcome any suggestions and it was the system that allowed the corruption to happen in the first place how can we now go against individual developers/developments or estate agent who were all in it together as this approach is bound to cause more problems (as can be seen this week) 😕 ( though a pop to warn others off at every opportunity is fair game if played clever and not set the editor up with potential problems)in our efforts to get our message across.
    The case to get the SYSTEM changed should without doubt at the forefront of everyone that’s sincerely interested in helping others in their fight against this farcical situation then and only then can those most corrupt be brought to justice.. 🙂
    This is only my opinion and I have checked each paragraph out so as to try and avoid anyone trying to pick something out to start any conflict. 😉

    Frank

  • #75370
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    Youre ok Frank – I type as I speak as well and can be pretty brutal (well for a girl anyway!!)

    If you have an off plan thats effectivel illegal, the devlopers mortgage offer still stands (incredibley) and you can go with it. Just that no other bank will touch it with a bargepole! The dev bank will as they have underwritten the whole thing anyway. So you cant really use the old ‘wont buy it dadedada’ routine there!

    Hoewver if no FLO, then you have grounds to REFUSE to buy but I understand that precedent was overturned as well in a different case so who knows!

    You end up money out of pocket until it all finishes. I guess sue the bank that is underwriting it all or the developers bank or it might be easier suing God as you will have more joy!

    I reckon just sit still and let the developer sue you – but then again they have the contract and your money anyway so will just sell to someother mug (if they find one) and you lose. This has happened to a client of mine – he entered into last auction, I went to the place to get pics and was told his contract had been annulled cos he missed the completion date. And he lost 108,000 euros. Unbelivably it was left to me – not his lawyer – to tell him!

    If bought a resale thats now suddenly classed as illegal then there are various options.

    1. Resell at much lower price to probably a spaniard who will take over the existing mortgage or pay cash.

    2. Wait to see what happens as if you have a nice liquid developer he will pay his fine and you will get your licence (gonna take a year or so min I reckon). If you DONT have a nice developer then after a couple of years wait for the compensation bill to hit your mat! But of course now the cat’s out of the bag noone will wanna buy your property in case they get landed with the bill!

    3. Stay there, keep paying the mortgage, bury head in sand and be nice to your spouse (as when they find out all of this you will be nattered all day long about how stupid you have been etc etc etc – no not me, luckily – just speculating!)

    4. Go see your bank manager, smile nicely and give him the keys back!

    I really cant see a reasonable way out in a reasonable length of time. There are people out there whose circumstances change – life does that – and so they are stuffed!

    What happens if I have a car accident and cant work/pay mortgage? I cant even sell it to clear my debts. Its total madness!!!

    Right, enough already time for a brandy…and wine….and gin….and chocolate -thats it …. chocolate!

  • #75371
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Inez
    You are soooo brutal.(even for a gal you cut right to the quick)
    Do I assume that you consider that things could be better then. 😀

    Enjoy the booze and remember tomorrows another day 😕

    Frank 8)

  • #75373
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @inez wrote:

    it might be easier suing God as you will have more joy!

    You’ve no idea just how true that probably is Inez!!!!!

  • #75378
    Profile photo of mike
    mike
    Participant

    @inez wrote:

    Yes Ive seen those – bit mad cos how creditworthy could you be if you couldnt pay your mortage anyway?

    And wont the ‘new’ mortgage and threefore the payments be the same as they were when you defaulted??

    I’ve heard that they buy at a hefty discount, their clients are usually desperate for money or not very bright and often both.

    The rental side is interesting. They give their clients a 6 or 12 month assured shorthold tenancy. Then after 4 or 10 months or at the start of any rental period after that date they can give them two months notice to quit the property.

    That’s when the client will start to wonder how he is going to rent a place similar to his old home at the artificially low rent he paid to this company. The property company could easily decide to sell the house at true market value making an easy 10% after costs (just guessing, the margins are probably greater) or increase the rent to whatever the market will tolerate when attracting a new tenant and giving them a good return for their money.

    You did know that there was an angle, didn’t you?

  • #75380
    Profile photo of mike
    mike
    Participant

    @mike wrote:

    @inez wrote:
    The rental side is interesting. They give their clients a 6 or 12 month assured shorthold tenancy. Then after 4 or 10 months or at the start of any rental period after that date they can give them two months notice to quit the property.

    I must say that this is the case in the UK. I believe that UK tenants have the least rights in Europe when it comes to renting their properties and so I am sure that anyone using the facility in Spain has greater safeguards.

    But I still stand by my statement that there will be a catch if the profit isn’t obvious to those offering you money.

    Do I sound cynical? I’m sorry, I don’t think everyone is bad but those attracted to profit by offering these kind of schemes are usually rather unscrupulous

  • #75381
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I personally believe it would be madness to force the owners to compensate the town hall should the developer refuse to do so in illegal developments. This is an ongoing fight.

    Nobody can seriously expect purchasers to be fooled twice or more by the system it would really be ludicrous. The spanish authorities have enough in their hands now as it is to allow this to happen.

    Everyone will join the fight against this hapenning because we all stand to lose as Marbella is seriously marred already this could deliver a killing blow for years to come because no one would want to come over and buy in the CDS. That’s why it cannot be allowed to happen. All this comes from Seville politics who want owners of illegal properties to act as safety nets if developers are not in the mood to pay for their own planning illegalities -and in many cases they are already refusing to do so-. Absolutely outrageous.

    That’s why LFO were so important and people just used to shrug them off before, “nah that’s not important”. A LFO is your guarantee to sleeping safe and sound at night in the knowledge that your property is legal and you can sell it or mortgage it at any time freely.

  • #75389
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Drakan wrote:

    A LFO is your guarantee to sleeping safe and sound at night in the knowledge that your property is legal and you can sell it or mortgage it at any time freely.

    Hi Drakan, this is what you instilled in Charlie and I (and others) many moons ago. 🙂 (in the SPI time zone 😉 ). This is why I uphold this stance vehemenently. Anyone who advocates completing without one is , IMHO, very foolish. If choices had to be made, I’d rather loose 30% deposit than 100% of the purchase price…if I had to loose at all. 🙁

  • #75393
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well
    Thats around 70,000+ of us that should not be able to sleep at night. 😯
    We all receive legal advice as to what is right on an individual basis and this is going back to beating the same ole one fit all drum as before.
    Correct no one can deny that you shouldnt complete without an L.F.O but each case is on its own merit and if you ignore that fact then its head in the sand and hope everything turns out O.K (in some cases.) 😉
    The calvary aint coming and its a sure thing that there isnt going to be many winners here.
    Someone wants to gamble loosing their deposit then thats their decision some dont,therefore its easy to advise as its not their money their playing with and lucky for them 😉

    Frank 8)

  • #75398
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Arh the LFO thing again.

    What about the poor sods that bought Los Patios completed nearly six years ago. When in those days an LFO was granted on administrative silence. Then about a year ago the owners find out not only had the LFO not been granted but the building licence was revoked. It would be difficult to say to those owners please pay monies to the town hall you should have waited for an LFO.

    I clearly believe that “A LFO is your guarantee to sleeping safe and sound at night in the knowledge that your property is legal and you can sell it or mortgage it at any time freely.” It has only recently come to light that most of these LFO’s (70,000 according to Justfrank) weren’t worth the paper they weren’t written on.

    As for completing without one today, i think (foolish or not) it depends on the circumstances, for example we have an owner on our development who is a lawyer and we don’t have an LFO although working hard to get us one.

    Regards

    Paul

  • #75399
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    In todays market, I would say an LFO is a much needed requirement. It’s all you get to deem the property legal. Years ago, LFO by way of AS may have been acceptable. Not anymore.

  • #75417
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    Hi Frank – yes Im brutal to the core!!! (well when I have to be that is)

    I dont know if its a good idea to complete without LFO in any case, BUT what about the developments who had them and now have them refuted by the town hall?

    Banana Beach has all licenses and LFOs – I actually got one!

    Time for tea meethinks!

  • #75423
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Inez
    Well that certainly clarifies everything. 😕 😕 😕 😕 😕 😕 😕 😕

    Need another black coffee and think a large brandy. 😉

    Frank 8)

  • #75424
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    Ahh no thanks – I partook a little too much of the vino and brandy last night and boy is it catching up with me now! 😥

    Its as clear as mud at the moment – a lot is political and really they do need their heads banging together!

    Ah well, at least the suns shining now 😀 which hurts my eyes! 😯

  • #75434
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Mariacastro posted.
    As a Spanish lawyer please let me launch a defence in favour of my country: I tend to think that justice in Spain can be as messy as in any other country. I can assure that we have got a serious and solvent judicial system and enough legislation to cover good defences.
    🙂
    I have noticed rather a stunning silence that if a normal laymen had posted this they would be hung out to dry 😉
    Just rather puts alot of us firmly in our place in our attempts of what we consider is lawful and unlawful.
    With regards to the two judges giving opposite rulings they both could be and are acting well within the law. 😕
    Just like a case in this country a few days back when a ba—-rd got 2 years for raping a 10 year old kid.(what would he have got in Spain?)
    Puts in in perspective when some are asking for justice in another country,does it not.? 😉

    Frank 8)

  • #75436
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Sometimes, silence is golden! 😉

  • #75456
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Appears EVERYONE agrees with you. 🙄

    Frank 8)

  • #75458
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I had stayed silenced on the subject for reasons that not all cases are the same. They may be similar/very similar. I do not have the facts of this case. The judgement has been a body blow to one of our forum user. It would have been wrong to comment on it, apart from in genaric.

    My views on the Spanish Legal system has been on different threads. However as quoted.

    “I can assure that we have got a serious and solvent judicial system and enough legislation to cover good defences.”

    Yes, there may be a system. However no system works or respected until

    a) Its put into practise.

    b)The custodians of the systerm are men of honour, entegrity, intellectual and above all doubts.

    c) The system is transparent, fair & equitable and timely and where a certain % slips through the net, it has is good back up system. Here My reference is to the impotence of “colegio de abagados”. Yes they only look after the lawayers but the system should have tear of follow up at all levels.

    d) A citizen/users of the system of the Country has faith in its workings & standards.

    Sadly, the above is not the case in Spain. This is not an impression/opnion that is being formed by British/Irish. The Spaniards also hold the Spanish legal system with the same disdain, contempt.

    I am fortunate enough to have many Spanish friends from all walks of life including lawrers and they share my opnion/views of the Spanish system.

    While, I fully understand how Maria feels and also know that she is doing her bit in uplfting her profession reputation in great adversity.

  • #75460
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I am fortunate enough to have many Spanish friends from all walks of life including lawyers and they share my opinion/views of the Spanish system

    I think your friends are not alone!

  • #75562
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @inez wrote:

    The Marbella Town Hall want most to be declared legal and the naughty developers to recompense the area by buying replacement land. The Junta want more demolitions – so not quite done and dusted yet and it still will be argued over and taken to a higher mummy to have heads knocked together and told to play nicely together. Thats all well and good BUT there is a BUT

    If the developer who built these illegal dwellings (love that word) decides NOT to play fairly and goes bankrupt, winds up the company THEN the onus of buying the land to recompense the area will fall onto – tadadadada – the owners who have already bought and paid (or are paying via mortgage) their homes!

    I found a list of illegal developments in Marbella on this site:

    http://www.lawbird.com/articles/view/25

  • #75565
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    Doesnt mention Banana Beach there at all does it!

    Well, time will tell what happens!

  • #75571
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Inez, it’s the ninth one down:
    Banana Beach. 300 dwellings. No solution possible. Demolition.

  • #75576
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Just read the list, all I can say is the whole scheme of handing over land stinks 👿 How can some hand over land that is already built on? What example is this when developers can still by their way to legality! What a shambles for a democratic ( ❓ ) country.

  • #75583
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Cant help but notice that the most topical developments on this forum in Elivira dont even get on the list.
    These listed clearly have more serious problems over the past years but have almost never get mentioned in any threads.
    Anyone observing this forum may have assumed that those two ,Green Hills and Los Lagos were the total centre of all thats corrupt on the Costa del Sol when we all know the was never ever the case.

    Frank 8)

  • #75589
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Wrong again Jim.

  • #75592
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Just looking at the list again.

    Look at it from another way if this dosent work then it could be that many will be looking at another place to shop with La Canada in the list.
    Yet another illegal build and I just suppose they built that little dwelling without anyone noticing or without any planning.
    Think I will look out for the demolition sales. 😉

    Frank 8)

  • #75608
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    Gosh oh yes Charlie! Going blind with all this squinting at the computer screen!

    This is a fun one as I have an owner desperate to sell (arent they all) and he has all the licenses AND LFO!!!?!

    Anyway, at the pgou place the deelopment has problems as there are 2 buildins going from the road to the beach and the end ones on the beach are the ones too close to the sand. On the plan most will be ok its just the last bit to be demolished

    The owner insists all is well, I say not, lawyers are divided, banks wont lend and apparently notaries wont sign it over either!

    Gawd – off to beach with a headache! 😆

  • #75918
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Latest court case in Elviria

    The developers have been given the certificate is states in accordance with the latest court case against them which they won it has been decided by the judge in Malaga the licence has been granted by default and the clients have to complete.
    Think they may be going for back dated fees.

    Frank 8)

  • #75920
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    What does that mean Frank. I cannot make sense of your post:?
    As I recall, Santa Maria Village has the LFO. The Court case the developer won was connected to Green Hills. This is being appealed to a higher court. What development does your post relate to?

  • #75921
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Claire 😉
    No Santa Maria village had no L.F.O. and its now deemed issued due to default and its deemed issued in accordance with Spanish law. (Lets see if they get that bit of paper.)
    I somehow feel that the Marbella town hall may want their ounce of flesh somehow. 👿 while they heap further misery on everyone involved.
    As we well know they change the legal rules and tomorrow it could be all change again by another ruling.
    As this came from the higher court in Malaga then it appears to support the decision on Green Hills. 😕
    Sifasa are goung to push for completions thats for sure and other developers will bound to use this ruling as a presidence.( I understand that this may not be allowed but try telling that to the developers)
    Not sure as to the legal situation with regards to illegal builds of this or the rest developments in limbo in Marbella. 😥
    Think its a case of many developers getting near to the ole bankruptcy and then it will get messy. 😥
    No matter what situation you are in this is now beyond a joke for those that have completed/those that havent completed on these developments or those owners on previous developments that may wish to sell.
    The situation is that all we hear about is Marbella but this is just the tip of a bloody big iceburg
    Have several friends in Manilva/Duquesa that have dreadful problems at the moment.

    Frank 8)

  • #75922
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The situation is that all we hear about is Marbella but this is just the tip of a bloody big iceburg

    This situation has far reaching tenticles. It stretches to Alicante and beyond. It’s never been a joking matter.

    So what you are saying is SMV has been granted a licence under “administrative silence” rules. Is this correct? If so then it’s not worth commenting on. Just goes to show what the calibre of the Judge is. 🙄

    I’m sure when my husband & I met up with our Lawyer in September he said SMV had it’s LFO and that GH would follow. LL is a different/ more complex matter. I won’t swear on my life though, as I’m sure he will correct me if I’m wrong!

    As a matter of interest, what/who is the source of information on this? 😉

  • #75924
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Is the source the developer, I haven’t read anything here 😕 (I read the local papers) As far as I know administrative silence does not apply in marbella. As for paying back fees…what fees? you cannot be liable for community fees before you actually complete at the notary.

  • #75925
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Claire
    I have been polite enough to answer you question in a civil manner.
    Its your opinion if this court ruling that may or may not have a major impact on the market is worth posting.
    The calibre of the judge is of no concern.
    I have not said it was a joke (please read my posting again)
    No this is not adminstrative silence please read my posting again, all I was trying to do is answer your question and keep you up to date which by your reply appears warranted.
    As with regards to where the information came from lets say its wasnt the newspapers shall we 😉

    Frank 8)

  • #75926
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I have been polite enough to answer you question in a civil manner.

    😕 Why would you have reason not to?

    I wrote:

    Just goes to show what the calibre of the Judge is.

    I was passing a personal opinion.

    I replied in a civilised manner too. 🙂 I have no reason to do otherwise. I genuinely am interested in what your post said. I’m puzzled by it and wondered where you heard this. You are evasive in the details.

    No Santa Maria village had no L.F.O. and its now deemed issued due to default and its deemed issued in accordance with Spanish law. (Lets see if they get that bit of paper.)

    What does that mean? What is the Spanish law you are talking about?

    If it offends you then don’t bother answering.

  • #75927
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Claire
    It appears your lawyer was wrong again and accept your offer not to reply further

    katy 🙂
    As you over there your better placed to check this out. 😕
    Apparantly developers have all the details at their office and they have or are sending out letters to solicitors who have clients on this development.
    Not sure if what or how they can backdate issues like maintanance charges but apparently other developers like La Reserva are saying the same.
    I am just the messenger here and like most of us am posting information received with as much info as I have.

    Frank 8)

  • #75928
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Claire
    It appears your lawyer was wrong and accept your offer not to reply further

    I know who I would believe Jim as you do not seem to be able to back up your info! 😉 🙂 You are perhaps getting inside word from the developers. Hmmm?

    Enough said on this one. 😉

  • #75930
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    As far as I know administrative silence does not apply in Marbella.

    Katy, I think the way it goes is……If the validity of the building licence is not in question (e.g. has not been revoked or suspended, is according to stipulations of the original 1986 PGOU plan etc.), then the Ad. Silence rule can apply as it is still legislation, even in Marbella. I’m ignoring the new PGOU for the moment as it is yet to be officially approved.

    However, if a development’s building licence is in question then the Administrative Silence Rule cannot be applied/assumed.
    As Frank mentions Green Hills, I will refer to it as one development that I know cannot assume a LFO via the Ad. Silence Rule as its b/l is currently suspended, as is the one for Los Lagos.

    Now comes a fine example of the famous grey areas:
    Marbella Town Hall Planning confirms in a court case that ‘a certain development’ is deemed to currently have illegal status (b/l suspended pending judicial review) therefore the purchaser should not be ‘obliged’ to complete, especially with no LFO having been issued. The judge decides to ignore all that – and says the purchaser must complete regardless. In my opinion this judge basically stuck two fingers at Spanish Law.

    Anyway, so the answer regarding Santa Maria Village as to whether it was able to acquire a LFO via the Ad. Silence Rule route all depends on the current official status of its building licence. (Or if it comes to a court case – the judge of the day…. 😕 ). Does anyone know if SMV’s b/l is under suspension or goes against the ’86 PGOU?

    As an aside:
    IMO, PURCHASERS SHOULD BE GIVEN THE OPTION OF PULLING OUT OF A QUESTIONABLE DEVELOPMENT WITH ALL MONIES RETURNED, NOT FORCED TO COMPLETE – UNLESS THEY WANT TO.

  • #75932
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Charlie 😉
    Depends in whoes eyes a development is legal. 😕
    Almost all are legal on one side of the fence.
    The route the developers are going for appears clear in as much as they are saying (and if correct at the Malaga courts have agreed) that its not their fault that the licences have not been given out.
    I.E by default they are legally right and looking to push there cases forward.( this is not administrative silence Claire but sort of.)
    The important thing here is that very few developments have been actually refusedL.F.Os so they are saying that legally they are right in law.
    This is the law ? They get planning/They build,/They get the paperwork.
    The purchasers are just caught up in the mess. 👿
    Again I am not saying I agree 😕
    It would be interesting if Maria or Drakan could try to untangle this one.

    Frank 8)

  • #75934
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Frank
    Just looking at another forum (saw you over there 😉 ) it seems copies of the LFO for Santa Maria Village are now actually ‘to hand’ and being sent to all lawyers of purchasers.
    If this is correct, it seems as far as SMV is concerned, the whole subject of full legality is done and dusted. Am pleased for owners that all uncertainty now seems to be over if this posting there is true.

  • #75936
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    it seems copies of the LFO for Santa Maria Village are now actually ‘to hand’ and being sent to all lawyers of purchasers.

    Which is what our Lawyer implied in September!! 🙄

  • #75937
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Claire wrote:

    I’m sure when my husband & I met up with our Lawyer in September he said SMV had it’s LFO…..

    I know, am not sure why Frank said: “It appears your lawyer was wrong again”.
    It seems our lawyer, via his connections, is in fact ahead of many……but others catch up in the end. 😉

  • #75938
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Absolutely Charlie! 😀 With many clients from these developments…of course he has the facts.

  • #75939
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Charlie 😉
    Perhaps I read this wrong

    I’m sure when my husband & I met up with our Lawyer in September he said SMV had it’s LFO and that GH would follow. LL is different mattter. 😕

    Goes to show not to take anyones posting even a lawyer as being 100% correct .Give him time its a long way back from 2003 😉
    Think you may find that they havent actually got their L,F.O but are claiming it on this court decision ie by default as posted.
    Please read my posts as perhaps they also have a small issue of compensation to the Marbella council to deal with first.
    Katy would be great if you could shine any light on the situation over there?

    Frank 8)

  • #75940
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Just Frank wrote:

    Think you may find that they havent actually got their L,F.O but are claiming it on this court decision ie by default as posted.

    The post clearly says:

    Hi
    If you go to the Sifasa office they have advised they can show you a copy of the license, copies are being sent to the lawyers as we speak, I can give you the telephone number of the office if you would like to phone and confirm.
    Regards
    Debbie P

    So how are you concluding from this post that they haven’t actually got their LFO if they have a copy of the licence in the office??

    😕 😕 😕

    As I said, if this post is true it looks like SMV’s legal problems are over, unless of course the post is just a blatant lie. Claiming they have it by default is one thing, saying they have a copy of the licence – and sending copies to lawyers – is quite another.

  • #75941
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The developer has to pay compensation on all the developments it built illegally. Don’t loose sight of the fact that they were only given a BL because they paid bribes to Jesus Gil.

    These things are decided long before it becomes public knowledge Frank. Our Lawyer would have known in September about the staus of SMV, otherwise he would not have said anything….or maybe he can see into the future!! 😉

    I think you are being pedantic. 🙂 Anyway, you believe what you want to. It’ll all come out in the wash eventually.

  • #75943
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Charlie 😉
    Yes I have feeling that this may be the case,perhaps Katy can get more info.
    Claire .As your lawyer told you that Santa Maria Village already had a licence when it clearly does not is one thing.
    Now unless he knew about the Malaga court ruling decision before hand he could not have known as clearly he cant look into the future. 😯
    Is this the lawyer you rely on to give advice on the forum. 😕
    It dosent matter who bribed who as this is 2008 not 2003 and its todays issues that need addressing.
    There is no need to get personal Claire 😉
    This is a valid and potential important issue and so we need to work together to get ALL the facts, and that dosent include trying to argue points to prove each other wrong.

    Frank 8)

  • #75946
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Just Frank wrote:

    Now unless he knew about the Malaga court ruling decision before hand he could not have known as clearly he cant look into the future.

    With respect Frank, the court ruling has absolutely nothing to do with it.
    (edited to clarify I’m meaning the ruling had nothing to do with my lawyer’s knowledge re. SMV).
    It is knowing SMV’s legal status re. their building licence and having good contacts at the Town Planning Office re. their intentions. He has clients at SMV so would have done his homework and would have familiarised himself with the facts. Having this information last month is not out of the realm of possibility…..and without the need to be able to ‘look into the future’. 😉
    He is just a good lawyer who doesn’t say anything without foundation.

  • #75948
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Charlie. 😉
    With every respect it does as this thread is the one you started yourself regarding this very topic. 😕
    Court rulings are the very thing that we will all be relying on.
    Hence I posted on this very subject when I received information and was clearly able to get clarification from a source which would be great if we could check it out.
    Your lawyer makes a statement based on the realms of possibility
    where is that going to take us,the situation changes over there almost everyday. 😕
    I also have a very good lawyer in Marbella so we share one thing in common. And star sign. 😉
    The issue here is court decisions and suggest we re-direct our efforts to your named thread.
    This is not a competion thread of who knows the most as you would win hands down. 😉

    Frank 8)

  • #75950
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Frank, you’re absolutely right – this all started re. SMV regarding a judge’s ruling.

    My fault, what I didn’t make myself clear over in my post was our lawyer didn’t base his knowledge on the judge’s ruling, he based it on his knowledge of SMV’s b/l status and information from the Town Hall. From that perspective only I wrote the court case had absolutely nothing to do with it (‘it’ being our lawyer’s knowledge of the situation).

    Judges don’t issue LFO’s, the Town Hall does. It follows therefore only they know if one is forthcoming or not, so they are the ‘boys’ to be in with.

    “This is not a competition thread”
    ? Exactly. 😀
    It seems we both have good lawyers, and is good to ‘pool’ information.

    Yes, we share the same star sign, that’s why we get so ‘crabby’ with each other at times. 😆

  • #75951
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Charlie. 😉 🙂

    Frank 8)

  • #75952
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    Without wishing to incite rage, my understanding with santa maria is it is a small couple of infringements which the developer had to rectify in order to get the licence through, quite a standard thing. I know there are a few banks who will lend on SMV and its one development I am promoting, albeit with caution!!

  • #75955
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Inez 😉

    Couple of infringments to sort. 😯
    Would one of those be a golf course by any chance , 😀 😀 😀

    Frank 8)

  • #75956
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I know nothing 😕 🙂 I would have thought there would have been something in the paper if an FLO had been issued! My understanding is that SMV was illegal under the old town plan? therefore to be legalised and obtain a licence it has to be in the new Town plan. The new plan has not yet been endorsed by the junta and there have also been 6000 objections to the plan. So how could they issue a licence when the NEW plan is not yet legal? (note that I am asking questions based on this not that I am saying it is true/untrue.) I don’t know which forum or the poster…could the poster have some personal interest, or be posting on behalf of the developer?

    If Drakan is around maybe he could comment.

  • #75957
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I know a purchaser at Santa Maria Village. Will see if I can get hold of a copy of the licence, pending it’s available from Sifasa’s office of course ❗
    That will decide it once and for all…..”watch this space”.

  • #75962
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    My aplogies, Snat Maria GOLF – definately a blonde day today! 😆

    Must get some wine and sober up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 😉

  • #75967
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Quote Katy

    I don’t know which forum or the poster…could the poster have some personal interest, or be posting on behalf of the developer?

    The poster who gave this information is an agent. They have an onsight office and are selling and letting. 🙄

  • #75976
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Two more ‘top judges’ put in their twopennyworth:
    http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_13325.shtml

  • #75988
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Without demolitions and massive penalties to Developers. the authorities are never going to take out the rotten core. the same will happen when the next boom (if ever!) arrives.

    All this payment for legalising properties seems to perpetuate the Roca era.

  • #75991
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi
    As this lady has not posted direct I felt it right to post the update.
    Perhaps she may not have other motives than to post information to the benefit of everyone.
    🙂

    GOOD MORNING,

    THERE IS A COPY IN THE SIFASA OFFICE, THE DEVELOPER HAS PUT HIS CASE FORWARD, AS HE HAS PAID NO ONE TO PUSH THE LICENSE THROUGH AND IS IN NO WAY INVOLVED WITH THE CORRUPTION CLAIMS OR PROVEN OF THE TOWN HALL,

    AS YOU ARE AWARE THE PEOPLE WHO WHERE WORKING FOR THE TOWN HALL AT THAT TIME OF THE CORRUPTION ALLEGATIONS, HAVE NOW BEEN REMOVED AND A NEW BOARD IS NOW IN PLACE.

    THE LICENSE HAS BEEN ISSUED AND WE ARE ALL NOW WANTING TO MOVE ON, MAYBE YOU SHOULD GET YOUR LAWYER TO CALL THE SIFASA OFFICE FOR A COPY OR CALL IN AS I KNOW THE DEVELOPER WOULD BE HAPPY TO HEAR YOUR LAWYERS POINT OF VIEW.

    SOME URBANISATIONS HAVE NOT GOT THERE LICENSE YET AND ARE ON A WAITING LIST DEPENDING ON WHY THERE LICENSE WAS PULLED SOME HAVE MORE PROBLEMS THAN 65 SQ METRES OVER BUILT AND WILL PROBABLY HAVE MORE TO DISCUSS AND ALSO TO RECTIFY THAN SMV HAD.

    WE HAVE SO MANY WHO WANT TO INVEST AND OF COURSE SOME PEOPLE CANNOT COMPLETE DUE TO THERE UNFORSEEN CIRCUMSTANCES IN THE LAST FOUR YEARS AND WHERE HAPPY THE LICENSE WAS NOT IN PLACE SO THEY DID NOT HAVE TO COMPLETE, AS YOU ARE WELL AWARE NON OF US NOW WHAT IS AROUND THE CORNER BUT I HAVE SEEN THE LICENSE MYSELF, AND I AM NOT A LIAR.

    REGARDS DEBBIEP.

    Frank 8)

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