Tracing the owner of a Spanish property

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This topic contains 37 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 8 years ago.

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  • #54473
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi be gentle guys, I’m new.

    I recently found a resale property advertised on a ‘Distressed Property Sales’ web site. I know the complex that it is situated on very well and made an offer 20,000 euros less than the asking price and have further offered to take over the mortgage on the property.

    There are serious issues with the complex in respect of the unfinished indoor pool & gym and the developers refusal to complete until he sells his unsold units. My gut feeling is that it will be the owners who will have to front up the completion monies. Having said this, it is the best complex that I have seen, I love the area and am sure that without the credit crunch it would have been fully completed and sold out.

    The complex is new, the seller bought off-plan and now finds himself in negative equity to the sum of 73,000 euros plus having paid 35,000 euros in fees and taxes, he is also paying a mortgage of 1124 euros per month.

    The agent has refused to put the offer forward to the seller, my offer is 22,000 more than the mortgage debt, but he won’t move. I know the full postal address of the property, is it possible to get the details of the seller from a register?

  • #87619
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The reason he is not putting your offer is perhaps the difference is his commission.

    There is the equivalent of Spanish land registry. I fact someone had posted the website address. This could get unpleasant.

  • #87620
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @shakeel wrote:

    The reason he is not putting your offer is perhaps the difference is his commission.

    There is the equivalent of Spanish land registry. I fact someone had posted the website address. This could get unpleasant.

    I don’t understand, what website address? 😕

  • #87633
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    This website address
    https://www.registradores.org:444/propiedad/propiedad.jsp
    but you can only get full details (ie names of owners) if you are a registered user and of course it relies on the property being registered correctly. If you have a lawyer in Spain they may already be a registered user so could get the info you need.

  • #87637
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    why has the agency not put the offer across? they must have given a reason.

  • #87638
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Why have they built so many illegal properties, Why have they built on non residential land, why the lawyers do not represent your interest.

    This is what is known as welcome to Spain.

  • #87649
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    In UK at least, isn’t an agent ‘obliged’ to submit any offer?
    Getting back to Spain, if my agent refused to put in my offer I would simply go round to the address, put my offer through the letterbox/under the door with my contact number – and on this occasion, ‘stuff’ the agent.

  • #87651
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I thought I had read on here that the distressed property sales website was not so good 😕

    Perhaps the Agent was given a final figure by the owner?

    The community office will have the details of the owner.

  • #87652
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi,

    Maybe the owner said don’t entertain any offers below “x”. I had a similar thing here in the UK when I offered below their lowest price and the agent said here he was not obliged to pass it on as they had instructed him not to do so.

    Benie

  • #87654
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Obviously in cases where the seller has given the instruction “don’t bother me with offers below x-amount” it is understandable, but the agent should make it clear why he/she is refusing to submit an offer.

    Perhaps crookesey can clarify if a reason was given.

  • #87665
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @hillybilly wrote:

    This website address
    https://www.registradores.org:444/propiedad/propiedad.jsp
    but you can only get full details (ie names of owners) if you are a registered user and of course it relies on the property being registered correctly. If you have a lawyer in Spain they may already be a registered user so could get the info you need.

    Many thanks, for under 10 quid it’s well worth a stab. Many questions have been asked of me that I shall attempt to answer. But first of all I must inform you all that my wife and I are experts in not buying in Spain. We have nearly bought so many times only to have been put off by agents sharp practice (give us a 4000 euros deposit and sign up for a 28 days completion is the usual one). We were totally unprepaired for this property as we had no intention of buying an apartment, on a complex via an agent.

    The agent in this case is fine, since returning home I have researched the development thoroughly and thrown him a few questions that I already knew the answers to, he came back with the truth every time. He has been given a bottom price by the owner who wants to recover some of his losses and pay the agents fees. He even told us without prompting that the complex had aparthotel status and that individual apartments could only be let out through the letting pool.

    This would be fine with us if the following questions could be answered to our satisfaction.

    When will the indoor pool/spa and gym be completed?
    When will the mini market, hairdresser and medical centre be up and running?
    When will the service road to the rear of the complex be completed and tidied up?
    Why are the restaurant and pool bar always closed?
    Is the complex always devoid of human life? (Not really a concern, the quieter the better for us)

    The worst case scenario with this development is that the deveoper will have to sell his remaining 11 units as distressed sales or have them reposessed by the bank.

    None of the amenities will be completed by the developer.

    The letting company will go bust.

    The whole development will have to be changed from an aparthotel to a normal complex basis with a comunidad and an elected chairman.

    We consider that the 20,000 euros reduction would be a cushion against the possibility of further expense, and prices may fall even further.

    OK you are all asking, why are we interested? You would have to see the development’s quality of build, attention to detail and it’s location to fully understand. We are in our early 60’s and don’t want a job of work to do when we come out for two months stays, this fits the bill perfectly apartment wise, but the complex has its issues.

  • #87668
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I would forget it looking at all the cons the price is not low enough. I am not sure about the legal implications of it being an Aparthotel but if I own anything I would like to be in complete control of rentals. If you are in a “pool” which apartment gets the booking, how is it prioritised if there are many for rent?

    As for uncompleted facilities…they never materialise unless they are completed before they start getting any money in.

  • #87671
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    I would forget it looking at all the cons the price is not low enough. I am not sure about the legal implications of it being an Aparthotel but if I own anything I would like to be in complete control of rentals. If you are in a “pool” which apartment gets the booking, how is it prioritised if there are many for rent?

    As for uncompleted facilities…they never materialise unless they are completed before they start getting any money in.

    Hi Katy,

    The Aparthotel status doesn’t concern us as we wouldn’t wish to rent out. This system is common place in the US and most of the new apartments in Dubai are within Aparthotels.

    It’s very hard to put a price on anything in Spain at the moment but I know that identical apartments have been sold for circa 360,000 euros so my offer of 255,000 is a condiderable saving.

    If you let me have your email address I will send over some photos of the apartment and the complex, it is really stunning.

  • #87674
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    The agent has refused to put the offer forward to the seller, my offer is 22,000 more than the mortgage debt, but he won’t move. I know the full postal address of the property, is it possible to get the details of the seller from a register?

    The agent in this case is fine, since returning home I have researched the development thoroughly and thrown him a few questions that I already knew the answers to, he came back with the truth every time. He has been given a bottom price by the owner who wants to recover some of his losses and pay the agents fees. He even told us without prompting that the complex had aparthotel status and that individual apartments could only be let out through the letting pool.

    So the agent has been upfront about everything. Informed you of all possible issues. And for his honesty your going to go behind his back? Nice

  • #87686
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @fuengi wrote:

    The agent has refused to put the offer forward to the seller, my offer is 22,000 more than the mortgage debt, but he won’t move. I know the full postal address of the property, is it possible to get the details of the seller from a register?

    The agent in this case is fine, since returning home I have researched the development thoroughly and thrown him a few questions that I already knew the answers to, he came back with the truth every time. He has been given a bottom price by the owner who wants to recover some of his losses and pay the agents fees. He even told us without prompting that the complex had aparthotel status and that individual apartments could only be let out through the letting pool.

    So the agent has been upfront about everything. Informed you of all possible issues. And for his honesty your going to go behind his back? Nice

    No he didn’t inform me of all the possible issues because he didn’t know of them all, I found out myself. He has been very honest about the Aparthotel issue and it’s restrictions, he told me how much the owner paid for the property, what his costs were and how much his mortgage is. IMHO he should put my offer to his client in view of the unfinished ameneties issue. It is only 20,000 euros less than the asking price and is hardly insulting.

    All that I am asking is that both the owner and the agent sharpen their pencils and at least give some consideration to an offer that is on the table. If they split the difference between them there is still 22,000 euros over the mortgage debt on offer, that will dissapear if the bank take reposession.

    I don’t see why I should offer the full asking price just because the agent is a nice guy who refuses to put my offer forward. Sorry to be so long winded but how do you suggest that I get my offer to the owner?

  • #87688
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Just cost you a few more thousand pounds whilst this thread has been running (supposing that you are exchanging pounds).

  • #87702
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Crookesey:

    If, the development is a part of an aparthotel. Than you will be paying a higher VAT on the purchase price, I believe it is around 17%. As apart hotel will be a business and the normal 7% purchase of a apartment will not apply.

    I, also feel that the apart hotel will have high maintenance expenses & they will be apportioned to the owners who are not in the rental pool.

    Charlie:
    ” In UK at least, isn’t an agent ‘obliged’ to submit any offer? “

    Obliged is one thing.

  • #87735
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @shakeel wrote:

    Crookesey:

    If, the development is a part of an aparthotel. Than you will be paying a higher VAT on the purchase price, I believe it is around 17%. As apart hotel will be a business and the normal 7% purchase of a apartment will not apply.

    I, also feel that the apart hotel will have high maintenance expenses & they will be apportioned to the owners who are not in the rental pool.

    Charlie:
    ” In UK at least, isn’t an agent ‘obliged’ to submit any offer? “

    Obliged is one thing.

    shakeel,

    A very good point, however I did check this out and the owner paid IVA at the 7% rate when he purchased it. The 17% comes into play in respect of any commercial activity such as renting out, something that we are not particulally keen on doing.

    The management charge is 120 euros per month, to include the maintainance costs, local rates, rubbish collection, communal lighting and the rental costs for the phone, SKY, electricity and internet, personal usage is of course billed to individual owners.

    The rental pool works on the basis of the management company retaining 50% of the total rent applicable to the pool (this incudes the 17% IVA, cleaning and management fees). The residual amount is then apportioned between the letting pool members in accordence with how many weeks any particular apartment was in the pool.

  • #87736
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Just cost you a few more thousand pounds whilst this thread has been running (supposing that you are exchanging pounds).

    Please explain your logic, I said in my OP that I had offered to take over the existing mortgage (233,000 euros). So you calculate that by offering 20,000 euros less I have cost myself thousands of pounds, how?

    The current stengthening of the euro to 0.815 pence from 0.80 pence makes very little difference on either the asking price or my offer price when the mortgage figure is deducted. I am not in the habit of paying thousands more for something just to save a few hundred.

    I know that I am new to this forum but the one thing that I do promise fellow members is, to read posts thoroughly before putting in my two penneth.

  • #87738
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    if you are going to buy this apartment or another watch the xchange rates.

    according to BBC

    “The pound was trading at 83.81 pence per euro, near the record low of 84.12 pence that it hit on Wednesday. “

    it might be worth approaching the estate agent again. the difference between the 1€=.81gbp and today at .83 gbp means the owner geta and etra 5000 gbp. Might make all the difference on acceptance

  • #87739
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Well just by skimming, your oncosts for buying this property will be around 30,000 euros. Last week that would have cost (APPROX FIGURE OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD) 24,500 GBP. Today 25,500GBP. That’s a thousand already. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong. 8)

  • #87740
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @fuengi wrote:

    if you are going to buy this apartment or another watch the xchange rates.

    according to BBC

    “The pound was trading at 83.81 pence per euro, near the record low of 84.12 pence that it hit on Wednesday. “

    it might be worth approaching the estate agent again. the difference between the 1€=.81gbp and today at .83 gbp means the owner geta and etra 5000 gbp. Might make all the difference on acceptance

    Please read my OP, if we buy we will be taking over the current mortgage so the poor exchange rate will only apply to 22,000 euros.

  • #87742
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    yes i saw that.

    I also beleive you said you were in your early ’60s? As long at there are only 10 or less years on the mortgage you hsould be able to take it over. And of course on the assumtion you and partner earn at least 2000GBP a month and next to know debts.

  • #87751
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Well just by skimming, your oncosts for buying this property will be around 30,000 euros. Last week that would have cost (APPROX FIGURE OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD) 24,500 GBP. Today 25,500GBP. That’s a thousand already. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong. 8)

    Yes you are wrong.

    Asking price – 275,000 euros
    Mortgage – 233,000 euros
    Offer – 255,000 euros

    So, 42,000 euros x 0.815 = £34,230 making it £630.00 more than 42,000 x 0.800 = £33,600

    As looks like the case, my offer will probably be accepted in part or in full, so you are saying that I would have been wiser to pay the 42,000 at an exchange rate of one euro = 0.800 pence than 22,000 euros at an exchange rate of 0.815 pence per euro (£17,930)

    I am sure that someone will correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t £34,230 £16,300 more than £17,930? Saving £630.00 by spending £16,300 more is a bit silly isn’t it?

  • #87753
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Whatever means the money is paid, part mortgage, part cash you will still have about 30,000 oncosts. That is what I was refering to. But just go ahead, why are you on here if you know F***ing everything

  • #87754
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    double post 😀

  • #87760
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Katy Katy

    Always had you down as a lady, not like you, are you stressed?

    SV

  • #87765
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I thought Katy made a good point. 😆

  • #87768
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Steve, I sure aint no lady when I feel irritated 😉

    What I should have posted (politely) is that I feel this could be another wind-up. I know a few Agents and I think as things are at present they would have jumped through fire to close the deal for the sake of such a small sum. Also (despite all the negatives surrounding the development) if I were keen to buy and getting a good deal I would not let such a paltry amount hold up the deal.

    The main point of the thread may be just how to cut out the Agent by contacting the owner direct. Morally I could not do this (although some Agents deserve this treatment). We were once selling through VIVA and the viewer who they brought along hung back, shook my hand and slipped a card with his number and said we could do a deal. We decided we did not want to do business with someone so devious and would not trust him. He called at the villa 3 weeks later and we had sold.

  • #87798
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Whatever means the money is paid, part mortgage, part cash you will still have about 30,000 oncosts. That is what I was refering to. But just go ahead, why are you on here if you know F***ing everything

    Hey keyboard warrior, zip it and keep your F words to yourself. What was your hobby prior to the advent of the internet, hate mail and unsolicitored phone calls perhaps? I have made very few posts on this forum and have been polite to members, including you, however I have still managed to flush out the forums resident banshee.

    If you were refering to something different to the actual content of the OP and subsequent posts why didn’t you say so? I don’t know everything by a long chalk but I wager that my research puts me way ahead of someone who’s sole aim is to constantly air what little knowledge they have managed to accumulate. I should have known that I had encountered the forum’s resident bossy boots when you attempted to value something that you didn’t even know the location or format of.

    Don’t bother trying to get more mileage out of this as I will ignore any further posts from you.

  • #87807
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @crookesey wrote:

    I wager that my research puts me way ahead of someone who’s sole aim is to constantly air what little knowledge they have managed to accumulate.

    “…..what little knowledge they have managed to accumulate” 🙄

    Then you’ll lose your wager. Katy has been living in Spain for many many years and her contributions on this forum have informed many with the experience and knowledge she has “accumulated”.

    Whereas you…..what was it you said?
    Oh yes…….

    @crookesey wrote:

    I must inform you all that my wife and I are experts in not buying in Spain..

    I think somehow – no, I’ll wager – that you’re also an expert at making yourself look pretty silly.

    I thought I would reply as you said you would ignore further posts from Katy. You are most welcome to respond to my post.
    Signed – from another of the forum’s resident banshees.

  • #87809
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    @crookesey wrote:
    I wager that my research puts me way ahead of someone who’s sole aim is to constantly air what little knowledge they have managed to accumulate.

    “…..what little knowledge they have managed to accumulate” 🙄

    Then you’ll lose your wager. Katy has been living in Spain for many many years and her contributions on this forum have informed many with the experience and knowledge she has “accumulated”.

    Whereas you…..what was it you said?
    Oh yes…….

    @crookesey wrote:

    I must inform you all that my wife and I are experts in not buying in Spain..

    I think somehow – no, I’ll wager – that you’re also an expert at making yourself look pretty silly.

    I thought I would reply as you said you would ignore further posts from Katy. You are most welcome to respond to my post.
    Signed – from another of the forum’s resident banshees.

    I have met complete idiots who have lived in the UK all of their lives, living in a country does not make you an expert on it. Katy was down right rude and insulting, a bit like you really, but like her you are nice and safe hiding behind a computer screen.

    Explain where I have made myself look silly oh smart one, everything that I have posted has been factual, unlike Katy who makes expert valuations on a property that she hasn’t seen and doesn’t even know where it is, but of course she’s an expert isn’t she. She has accused me of attempting to cut the agent out when I said that all I wanted was to get the offer to the owner, which I have now managed via the agent.

    And as for expertise, I have been invoved in the residential and commercial mortgage market since Adam was a lad. It is far easier for someone like me to pick up the buying process in another country than for someone who has limited experience of the property market.

  • #87810
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    If you read through the posts again, Katy’s comments were purely and simply regarding the calculations. Not seeing the property, nor knowing its location is totally irrelevant.

    As the point of your opening post was to ask how to trace an owner as your agent was not putting forward your offer, I feel any suggestion that you were ‘attempting to cut the agent out’ is rather reasonable.

    Suggest you relax a bit.

  • #87811
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @crookesey wrote:

    It is far easier for someone like me to pick up the buying process in another country than for someone who has limited experience of the property market.

    Oh dear, you haven’t listened to Rule no. 1.
    Your experience in residential and commercial mortgages has NOTHING to do with anything when it comes to buying a property in Spain.
    Thinking that it is, is the mistake that many of us made.

    The buying process in Spain (and the pitfalls that potentially await) is nothing like the buying process in the UK.

  • #87812
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I think most people would agree that you will have around 30,000 euro in fees and taxes for the property. In no way did I attempt to make any valuation on the property I was just pointing out that you had lost a fair amount on the falling exchange rate whilst you have been trying to trace this owner. Do you not agree, (even discounting the large mortgage you may be taking over) that the property will now cost you a few thousand more than when you first posted?

    I do really think that taking on a mortgage at your time of life is a bit foolhardy. Especially on something that may be cheaper next year

    If you think I was being rude I did actually insert the symbols myself. 😆

    Keyboard warrior…hmmm quite like that one 😀

  • #87823
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    I think most people would agree that you will have around 30,000 euro in fees and taxes for the property. In no way did I attempt to make any valuation on the property I was just pointing out that you had lost a fair amount on the falling exchange rate whilst you have been trying to trace this owner. Do you not agree, (even discounting the large mortgage you may be taking over) that the property will now cost you a few thousand more than when you first posted?

    I do really think that taking on a mortgage at your time of life is a bit foolhardy. Especially on something that may be cheaper next year

    If you think I was being rude I did actually insert the symbols myself. 😆

    Keyboard warrior…hmmm quite like that one 😀

    OK shall we be friends?

    Our problem is that we are property rich and relatively cash poor. We have a residential property that we will keep and four other properties that we will eventually divest ourselves of. I have asked a local agent what he thinks and he said that he couldn’t recall when he had last sold anything, a right little confidence builder he was.

    The mortgage has four years left and I thought that surely to god we will manage to sell something in that time. The job might very well disapear next year and I need something new to occupy myself, don’t say “take up golf”, I agree with Oscar Wilde on golf “A good walk ruined”.

    I do agree with you when you say that Spanish prices haven’t bottomed yet and might just wait and see. The only thing with this is that at my age I don’t have that many years left for waiting and seeing.

  • #87825
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    @crookesey wrote:
    It is far easier for someone like me to pick up the buying process in another country than for someone who has limited experience of the property market.

    Oh dear, you haven’t listened to Rule no. 1.
    Your experience in residential and commercial mortgages has NOTHING to do with anything when it comes to buying a property in Spain.
    Thinking that it is, is the mistake that many of us made.

    The buying process in Spain (and the pitfalls that potentially await) is nothing like the buying process in the UK.

    I didn’t explain myself properly, I am so used to acting as a go between that I expect everything to be suspicious at the very least. In Spain, if a lawyer or an agent told me that the Pope was a Roman Catholic and the Chief Rabbi was Jewish I would still seek a second opinion.

    I am sorely tempted to use the services of a firm of international and bilingual lawyers called International Lawyers who have offices all over the world. They were started by a local solicitor that I used to know and are accountable to the UK Law Society. So if they cocked up the purchase from ar-e hole to breakfast time they fall into UK regulation and have professional indemnity insurance.

  • #87973
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I will now own up to being a little pedantic because I wanted you guys to tell it as it is, and you certainly obliged, albeit for different reasons. My heart was ruling my head, I still love the apartment, it’s location and it’s wonderful sea views, but there will always be the possibility of finding another one.

    The euro and the pound are getting closer to parity every day, so a property that was on the market for say 350,000 euros when a pound was worth 1.50 euros could need to come down to 233,000 euros in a worst case scenario, just to maintain the status quo.

    I intend to take the gamble that the euro will eventually weaken against the pound and that Spanish property prices will continue to fall. Spain could yet find itself in a similar banking scenario to that recently experienced in the UK and USA. If the Argentinian government follows through with it’s threat to nationalise it’s pensions industry. Spain could end up in a terrible financial mess, as it is a major investor in the Argentinian financial services industry.

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