The Spanish Property Market in 2011?

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This topic contains 195 replies, has 30 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Chris McCarthy Chris McCarthy 5 years ago.

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  • #56038
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Happy New Year to all.

    So what is the consensus on what will happen during 2011 in the property market here in Spain?

    Will the banks finally release the 10’s of thousands of properties they have? If they do will the price be realistic?

    What effect will this have on the market as a whole?

    Will it mean more property sales or do people simply not have the money?

    Will banks actually give mortgages?

    Imo 2011 looks like being even more difficult than 2010 and the property markets will be at least 5 years before it starts to turn around.

    Ian

  • #102181
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Speaking to a friend of mine who works for the property division of one of the banks. She says they have done reasonably well this year by hitting their sales targets, which they did by selling their best stock with big discounts. She is worried that next year will be much more challenging. She expects they will have less room to move on price, and what they have left isn’t very nice anyway (and there’s a lot of it).

    There’s a lot more to say about the market outlook for 2011. But first I want to go back and read what was said about 2010…. 😉

  • #102182
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    What has been said for 2010 can be cut & pasted here. All the research etc can become meaningless because of so many permutations, constraints, improbables mix it with political dogma.

    I agree the stock that banks have been pushing or are going to be pushing will be undesriable as a holiday/retirement/second home. The best ones we as outsiders will not get a sniff.

  • #102194
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Relevant article in today’s Wall Street Journal

    By WILLIAM BOSTON | Special to the WSJ

    Amid all the uncertainties facing European real estate in 2011, there is one abiding belief: Spain is headed for more pain.

    It is tempting to think the time is ripe to get back into Spanish property. After all, Madrid office rents have fallen 30% since the peak in the third quarter of 2008. And capitalization rates are at about 6.5%, 2.25 percentage points wider since the third quarter of 2007, representing an erosion of commercial-property prices. The capitalization rate measures the annual return of income-producing properties.

    But private-equity investors, property analysts and even Spain’s prime minister agree that the decline in the Spanish economy and weakening of property markets isn’t over yet. Rents still are falling and even if a few recent deals have been done at slightly lower cap rates, prices aren’t improving.

    “There could be some opportunistic deals, but I’m not sure we’ve seen the peak of the crisis in Spanish property yet,” said Ralph Winter, founder of private-equity group Corestate Capital AG.

    In a survey of 154 real-estate professionals by property analysts at J.P. Morgan Cazenove, 77% of those polled predicted Spain would be the worst-performing property market in Europe in 2011. The best performers are expected to be the U.K., Germany and France.

    Mr. Winter, whose firm has more than €1.5 billion ($2 billion) in assets under management, is looking for opportunities to buy distressed property around Europe. While real estate in Spain fits that bill, Mr. Winter said it still is too soon to invest in Spanish property.

    To be sure, there still are some deals getting done in Spain. Just before the year’s end, an affiliate of New York-based W.P. Carey & Co. completed the €80 million sale and lease-back purchase of the headquarters of Distribuidora de Television Digital SAU. As part of the deal, DTS agreed to remain a tenant in the building for 20 years, illustrating the kind of secure rent income that investors require to do deals in Spain.

    “It is true that the fundamentals of the market are still very weak and rents will adjust further, but these deals have the security of long leases and, therefore, are immune to short-term adjustments, said Adolfo Ramirez-Escudero, executive managing director of capital markets at CB Richard Ellis Group in Spain, an adviser to the buyer on the deal.

    But the outlook is bleak. Spain’s real-estate industry still is recovering from a decade of overbuilding, fueled by low interest rates, a robust economy and an influx of British snowbirds seeking second homes on the Spanish seaside. When the subprime-mortgage crisis hit in 2007, Spain’s property bubble burst, leaving developers with big loans and about one million unsold, newly completed homes on their books.

    If that wasn’t trouble enough, Spain has been swept up in Europe’s debt crisis, with speculation rife that regardless of the Spanish government’s austerity measures, Madrid won’t be able to escape a bailout by the European Union. That has raised the cost of borrowing and caused mortgage lending to come to a standstill.

    In October, the number of Spanish home mortgages issued was down 24% from the same month a year ago, according to data published last week by Spain’s National Statistics Institute. Home sales fell 18% in October to the lowest level on record, according to the data. The Bank of Spain estimates that Spanish banks have nonperforming or at-risk property loans of about €181 billion on their books.

    Relief can come only from economic recovery. But Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero told Spanish lawmakers last month that it could be years before Spain fixes its economy.

    Edward Farrelly, head of Spanish property research at CB Richard Ellis, remains bearish on Spanish property, but said some investors might begin to come back to “pre-empt the expected recovery of the market in 2012.” That scenario is subject to a number of significant risks, however.

    For one, a weak economy means higher unemployment, which damps consumer spending and hits shopping-center landlords. As the economy slows, companies require less office space, and that causes vacancies to rise and puts pressure on rents. And with the existing surplus of up to one million new, unsold homes in Spain, banks are unwilling to lend for mortgages unless the loan will finance the sale of a home that already is on the bank’s books.

    “I am not very optimistic about the Spanish property market,” said Mr. Farrelly. “The general economic situation is weak. I expect office rents to continue falling next year, and there are still a lot of problems to be worked out in residential property.”

    Another risk, said Mr. Farrelly, is a consideration by the Spanish government to try to boost the economy by creating incentives for home builders. If the plan were to go through, Mr. Farrelly said, it could have a short-term impact on the economy by boosting construction but at the cost of creating a new residential property bubble.

    “I don’t think they will go through with it,” said Mr. Farrelly. “But it is a risk.”

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703808704576061772298554068.html

  • #102203
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    An interesting article and one which mirrors my own opinion.
    Spanish banks have finally realised the true extent of the situation and are currently heavily discounting their holdings.
    The trouble is from an investors perspective the situation became considerably worse in the latter quarter of 2010. The banks held on far too long before making a move and now even the discounted stock looks relatively poor value.
    With equities booming and an expected up tick in all sectors in the USA during 2011 and serious Eurozone debt worries the Spanish property markets look dead in the water for some time to come.

  • #102204
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    The report states that the subprime mortgage crisis caused Spain’s bubble. Incorrect the property market was already in trouble. Estate agents had been closing for at least a couple of years earlier.

  • #102206
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Happy New Year everyone! 😀

    As I see it, all the things that made Spain appealing to investors several years ago are no longer there, with the exception of the sunshine! There are other places that can offer that though. I don’t think there are any Eurozone countries that are not affected by the current economic problems. Getting a mortgage in the UK is a lottery, and I think we will see unemployment figures rise.

  • #102207
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    China seems to be interested in investment in Spanish debt.
    http://www.businessinsider.com/the-market-is-seeing-right-through-chinese-promises-to-keep-investing-in-spain-2011-1
    We should not take this as a sign that China expects Spain to rebound any time soon. More that they seek a high return on their enormous capital reserves.

  • #102232
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Speaking to a Spanish property expert at ground level, a successful estate agent with his feet firmly on Spanish soil, he predicts a 30% decline in property values this year.

    He neither takes on over-priced properties nor repossessions, but he has taken on an extra Scandinavian speaker because of the demand from that part of the world. His Mandarin lady is quite busy too, on the commercial side.

  • #102233
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    Speaking to a Spanish property expert at ground level, a successful estate agent with his feet firmly on Spanish soil, he predicts a 30% decline in property values this year.

    He neither takes on over-priced properties nor repossessions, but he has taken on an extra Scandinavian speaker because of the demand from that part of the world. His Mandarin lady is quite busy too, on the commercial side.

    ..your expert friend is probably right…there are a lot of buyers who do need to reduce the price of their property. I must say, the area my property is based in, I have actually seen properties for sale at the same prices I was seeing in 2007! So there certainly are a lot of stubborn sellers out there, these are the sellers who are slowing things down after all…

  • #102236
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    There was a comment a few days ago in El País that said in February the banks have to start writing down values and there will be lots of reductions….don’t shoot the messenger 😀

  • #102238
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    I think you’re right about stubborn sellers, especially the Spanish. They tend to pluck a value out of the air and stick with it, no matter what, for years.

    My expert pal was asked to revalue a Spanish property that has been for sale for the past ten years, at 995,000 Euros. He valued it at 600,000 Euros and it looks as though it is finally going to be sold, for 550,000 Euros.

  • #102244
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    China seems to be interested in investment in Spanish debt.
    http://www.businessinsider.com/the-market-is-seeing-right-through-chinese-promises-to-keep-investing-in-spain-2011-1
    We should not take this as a sign that China expects Spain to rebound any time soon. More that they seek a high return on their enormous capital reserves.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704405704576063564193989214.html

  • #102246
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    http://www.diariosur.es/rc/20110107/economia/prima-riesgo-dispara-temor-201101071255.html
    http://www.diariosur.es/v/20110108/economia/mercados-atacan-espana-disparan-20110108.html

    Not looking so good here. The Chinese have money to burn and they want the high interest rates Spanish debt demands. Don’t know if you have noticed but the IBEX has been crashing since before christmas. Other European markets lose 0.01% whilst the Spanish loses an average of 1.5% daily. May pick up tomorrow though after the Chinese announcement.

    Main point from above article.
    Next week a delegation of 9 from the EU arrive in Spain to find out the true extent of Spain’s financial crisis.

    Spain’s banks hold a huge amount of Portuguese debt.

  • #102248
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    http://www.diariosur.es/rc/20110107/economia/prima-riesgo-dispara-temor-201101071255.htmlot

    Not looking so good here. The Chinese have money to burn and they want the high interest rates Spanish debt demands. Don’t know if you have noticed but the IBEX has been crashing since before christmas. Other European markets lose 0.01% whilst the Spanish loses an average of 1.5% daily. May pick up tomorrow though after the Chinese announcement.

    Main point from above article.
    Next week a delegation of 9 from the EU arrive in Spain to find out the true extent of Spain’s financial crisis.

    Spain’s banks hold a huge amount of Portuguese debt.

    sorry katy but your link is not working.

  • #102249
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    katy
    Spectator

    Sorry now edited. The second one is worth translating.

  • #102393
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Extract from yesterday’s New Statesman online:

    Q: What will be the best trade of 2011?
    A: Buying sovereign debt. I’ll be buying cash bonds in short-dated maturities issued by Portugal, Ireland and Greece. Everyone else is selling still, and the returns are amazing for what is basically German and French risk. Portugal is the raciest, because if Spain does go down, it will be massively hit.

    A more off-the-run trade is buying up Spanish property. The cajas won’t sell you foreclosed property at the clearing price, but they will sell it at the price they hold it on their books and give you a 98 per cent, non-recourse mortgage at close to nought per cent interest. It means you put down a couple of grand and, if my nightmare scenario doesn’t play out and Spanish property recovers, you make a fortune.

    Q: A final message for New Statesman readers?
    A: Warren Buffett got it right: “Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others
    are fearful.”

    http://www.newstatesman.com/banking-and-insurance/2011/01/european-bank-spain-property

  • #102400
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Probably come out as one of the most stupidest financial tips of the year 🙄

    Buy an overpriced bank property, mortgage yourself to the limit (don’t spanish mortgages have a high set up cost?). 11% oncosts for fees and taxes. Rental market dead. Yearly community fees and council taxes to pay. Unless prices rise by about 30% over the next couple of years it is a no brainer.

    Why does everyone use that overworked quote from Buffet…it is correct but he wasn’t refering to the spanish property market 😆 There is also another quote from him. Can’t remember the exact words but it said to leave alone old asset booms which have since failed and try something different.

  • #102618
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Probably come out as one of the most stupidest financial tips of the year 🙄
    Why does everyone use that overworked quote from Buffet…it is correct but he wasn’t refering to the spanish property market 😆 There is also another quote from him. Can’t remember the exact words but it said to leave alone old asset booms which have since failed and try something different.

    Jeeze, that blew a hole in my boat, was going to use that in my next post!

    Only happened to glance up and see this I tend to ignore the top four of five, but was very interested to see the comment about the advice to buy a bank financed unit… I get your points Katy, they all good enough, but if there was a number of units that were in a development that was 90% plus sold, done and dusted, all finished and well managed.

    If these units were down from prices that were genuinely purchased at 4 years ago, by 30% – 40%, and if the bank does have a genuine offer of 100%, surely to goodness there is mileage in that.

    I want to start a thread on that very subject, but I don’t want to be commerical or ‘up talking’ but I am fascinated by the prospects of one resort, and i do think the Buffet comment works in that regard.

    You are bang on with your comments, but some people could do very well if there is any kind of recovery.

  • #102800
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    well, never mind any recovery; anyone buying at 40% off 2005 prices with 100% loan at current low interest rates is going to be very happy and gets a good deal!!! as long as they buy in a good location (and we now know what that means) a business opportunity Mr McCarthy i would think????????some Spanish agents i know have sold a few hundred to locals who still have jobs and by luck hadn’t bought a property before the crunch came!!!!

  • #102808
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @UBEDA wrote:

    well, never mind any recovery; anyone buying at 40% off 2005 prices with 100% loan at current low interest rates is going to be very happy and gets a good deal!!! as long as they buy in a good location (and we now know what that means) a business opportunity Mr McCarthy i would think????????some Spanish agents i know have sold a few hundred to locals who still have jobs and by luck hadn’t bought a property before the crunch came!!!!

    An exceptional opportunity Mr Ubeda and one that is becoming more and more evident as being an outstanding deal for a number of people, can’t quite decide whether I want to talk about that or not though, there is perhaps a bit of a mini boom in that scenario – after the storm stuff really.

  • #102811
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Said in today’s diariosur that over 90% of embargoed property auctions in Marbella are deserted. Even luxury villas at 50% off are not selling. They comapre this with over 4 years ago when they were queuing to get in.

  • #102812
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Mr McCarthy.
    There are no ‘outstanding deals’ on property in Spain. Just some finally getting close to fair value and most having a very long way to go before reaching their true worth.

  • #102784
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    Mr McCarthy.
    There are no ‘outstanding deals’ on property in Spain. Just some finally getting close to fair value and most having a very long way to go before reaching their true worth.

    With respect Mr Logan,

    If someone gets close to fair value, how does that translate to then being conversely, a long way from reaching their true worth?

    Regardless, your perception of what is an outstanding deal – I presume to be that of a speculator / investor, or whatever other term you prefer – is perhaps somewhat different from that of others.

    So, I venture you might be wrong, I don’t see that you alone get to decide for everyone what is an outstanding deal per se, it is all down to the individual is it not?

  • #102580
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    So, I venture you might be wrong, I don’t see that you alone get to decide for everyone what is an outstanding deal per se, it is all down to the individual is it not?

    Of course I don’t speak for others. I only write from my extensive personal experience as a property investor and hope to alert potential buyers to be aware what a minefield Spain is for the inexperienced.
    It’s true that I have a dislike for property agents and their like who hype up the truth and spin situations to suit themselves without a care for their victims and yes they are victims.
    Spinning the true situation in the Spanish property market like suggesting a very ordinary purchase as an “outstanding deal” is what I protest about.
    How can 100% LTV mortgage ever be outstanding? Interest rates are expected to rise in the EZ soon. How will the debtor pay back the debt? Plus the other rising obligations.
    If the buyer had cash the seller would reduce the price further. Especially if it’s a bank. They are desperate for cash.
    The true worth of a property is what someone is willing to pay and what the seller is willing to receive.
    Headline prices are meaningless.
    Fair value is based on many differing criteria and from my knowledge most property for sale right now in Spain remains far from it.

  • #102583
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    If 40% off 2005 prices reflect the bottom of the market, then a 100% mortgage deal could represent good value, providing the mortgage rate was fixed over a lengthy period.

    If prices fall further and mortgage (interest) rates rise, such a buyer would only be buying into negative equity.

    It’s back to the perennial problem for any prospective property buyer in a volatile market, a market which has plummeted for at least three years now. Because of its volatility, and one just needs to look around the events in the Middle East, almost anything can happen and happen quickly.

    If market sentiment changes, if Spain is once again considered as a safe destination in a turbulent world of uncertainty, and if the bottom has truly been reached, then, despite the overhang and sour taste of corruption still in the air, prices could start rising again, and rapidly at that.

    Those sitting on their hands, complaining at every opportunity, will have missed out.

  • #102602
    Profile photo of rt21
    rt21
    Participant

    Well well well. The Spanish Government really do need us Brits to kick start their property market and by implication their economy.

    “The British are our highest priority and are those about whom we are most concerned,” Mrs Corredor ( the Spanish housing secretary) told The Sunday Telegraph. “It is true that there has been… an image problem. Now we want to reassure the British, and all foreigners, that we are doing everything possible to put the details clearly on the table.”

    see the following link

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/8305743/Spanish-housing-minister-appeals-to-British-buyers-to-return.html

    Very reassuring words from Mrs Corredor and I am so pleased that it is just an image problem because I had thought the problems went deeper than that!

    She might have used the words of Lord Kitchener “Our Country needs you (Buy Now)”

    Richard

  • #102604
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    If she thinks this is a Image problem even allowing for the political language. clearly shows she has little or no idea of the issues. If she needs to clear the image. She should do the following:
    Pay people like Mr & Mrs Prior now with compensation, return all the land grab with compensation, enforce all bank guarantees, get rid of all the corrupt lawyers with zero tolerance of the others, sack all at the Colegio de Abagados and replace it with a beefed up system, sack all the Notary & judges & again zero tolerance of the others, break the power of Junta de Andalucia. Certain rules regulations should be common to all Provinces/Regions, monthly presentation of Bank statement/activities to a regulatury bodies of Mayors of different town, cities etc. A punative stances anybody found guilty i.e. throwing the key away. Once the above is enforced for say atleast five years than we have a start, Treat the forignors the same as Spaniards in terms taxes, laws. The situation is really like Preseident Mubarak nobody beleives or trust what he says. Spain finds itself in the same position. Yes an EU member state.

  • #102605
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I agree with Shakeel, major political reforms are needed in Spain. Not least a reduction of regional political power.
    However we should remember that Spain does not have a long history of pluralist democracy, rule of law and political accountability.
    Spain simply does not function like northern EU states where liberalism and political freedoms have existed in their institutions for a very long time.
    Even before Franco and the civil war, Spain was a political mess, with a useless monarchy, where paternalism and the Catholic Church ruled every aspect of Spanish life.
    Spain has made great strides to overcome its past since Franco. There is still a very long way to go.
    It takes many generations to overcome negative culture even with shiny new laws the EU implement and are mostly ignored on the ground.
    In my view the major fault lines which breed so much corruption is a lack of accountability and effective supervision.
    They could start by creating a whole new structure with the political will to make that effective and laws to back it up to give it teeth.

  • #102573
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Wow, although I never really agree with most of the opinions on this forum, I think Logan has painted a very clear picture of the sociological and historical structure of Spain’s past and present. I really do hope that something new is put in its place although regional governments will always have far too much clout.

  • #102577
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Logan. I fully agree with your analysis. Spain has the advantage of not evolving but jumping straight onto that desired level. Just like the road, train infrastruture etc.

    Yes, regions may have variotions but fundamental rights & wrongs should be comman. One region cannot allow for shooting some one & other does not. The Accountabilyty & supervision should be done from yesterday & with vigor.

  • #102552
    Profile photo of rt21
    rt21
    Participant

    just read a rather cynical article on eye of Spain about the property market in Spain

    see link below

    http://www.eyeonspain.com/spain-magazine/property-crash-happening.aspx

    This surely cannot be true particularly in Andalucia where the Junta has been keeping a very watchful eye on the industry over the last 20 years

    Richard

  • #102553
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I dont know in what context to do you mean watchfull eye ???? Whole blocks, Commercial center’s have been created in under their watchfull eye.

  • #102554
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Yes the junta have watched the whole coast being lined in concrete, the whole countryside ruined by illegal villas.

    The article sounds about right to me. Those Developers always did work on the robbing Peter to pay Paul system.

  • #102555
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    And some of these bar stewards who mis-sold are also relaxing in Thailand and other places, and still mis-selling off-plan properties, aren’t they Blagger Man et al? BTW he is ex Awful!!!

  • #102560
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Having read the posted article I think the writers have described quite accurately how Spain ended up in the mess it’s currently in.
    Having been involved with similar projects myself some years ago I can confirm that’s how most of it was done.
    Planning permission post building was simply the only way projects could get off the ground. You gave the town hall a ‘fait accompi’. They had to comply or face the wrath of locals anxious to have the developments built for local trade and employment. In those days regional and national government could not give a stuff if rustic land was built on.
    Buyers deposits usually provided a percentage of the start costs and were happy with their completed purchase most of the time.
    Of course it’s all very different now and had the recession not arrived elsewhere in the world the developers would be still at it. Although rustic land is now a taboo except for the really crooked. The likelihood of getting away with it is now zero.
    The banks have learned a very sorry and expensive lesson. It’s unlikely they will ever be conned again in quite the same way. Yet I remember other recessions and they same thing was said then. There is nothing new under the sun.
    Greed is a very powerful master.

  • #102561
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Richard – oh the Junta was keeping a watchful eye alright, on their ever-expanding tax coffers. It must have been like Christmas everyday.

    My developer (who openly admitted to us they bribed the Town Hall to get the building licence because “things were done differently in those days”, later revoked) is still in Spain doing very well thank you very much. So much so that last year they teamed up with RE/MAX and opened a new showroom bang in the middle of Centro Plaza, Nueva Andalucia. No skulking off to Thailand for him.

  • #102563
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    rt21
    Participant

    Yes Charlie that little lot in Seville “see no illegal hear no illegal” have a lot to answer for. The sooner those self serving PSOE politicians are booted out in the next election cannot be a day too soon.

    Richard

  • #102884
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    It’s not my favourite newspaper, but I think you need to read all the news to get an accurate picture, whether it’s an endless list of statistics, prejudiced comment, or the occasional human touch.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1359029/They-dreamt-better-life-Costas-Now-villa-values-HALVED-pensions-crashed–afford-come-home-Now-really-bad-news-worse.html

    Those little, exaggerated stories are worth a read and with a bit of mental editing, what Joe Bloggs says from Essex is just as important as some finance minister from Brussels.

    2011 even sounds an awful year and so it has proved only a few weeks into it. Arabia is in flames and all eyes are on Saudi Arabia. If the oil stops, there will be financial meltdown all over the West, but even without such an extreme scenario, austerity measures will ensure that property prices will fall in most places.

    Spain, having started off from an impossible high, is already well down and the country’s various problems will not go away in this troubled year. Thank God for the sunshine.

  • #102889
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hmm, won’t be going to A Place in the Sun this year after reading that!

    Just out of curiousity, seeing as most of you are Brits, do you still think that there is a market for rural property in Spain?
    (I’m talking about large, over 10.000 m2 plots). They really got a hard time (most of the time rightfully so, but not every single one was illegal built), but after all the press they had, do any of you think that there is a market for them?

    thanks for the feedback.

  • #102891
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    logan
    Participant

    These are the obstacles against a market in such property:-
    1. Rural land is by definition just that. Any planning permission is suspect. You might think you have it, have papers which say you have it and may be told so by developers/ local mayor. Until you are served a demolition notice by the regional government that you do not.
    2. Trusting builders and developers to deliver said property on time and in budget without running off with your money.
    3. Any rural property will be burgled on a regular basis when you are not there.
    4. Not desirable for letting. Nobody wants holidays in the boom docks.
    5. Quality of infrastructure, roads, street lighting, electricity and water. In summer rural properties have their water rationed.
    6. If you need a mortgage banks in Spain are not lending, especially on rural properties which may turn out to be illegal.
    7. Difficulties for resale should you wish to move.

    Even buying an existing house on rural land is suspect. A lawyer can check it’s legality but do you trust even that? I have had personal experience. It took me years to legalise a property I had bought with such assurances. Fortunately back then it was possible, now it would be demolished.

  • #102892
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    I think where we Brits went wrong with those fincas on 10,000 metre plots was in our misunderstanding of their purpose. They’re parcels of land for growing vegetables and raising animals, with small dwellings not meant for permanent use, more for animal shelters and storing farm produce.

    They could only ever be legally built upon by keeping exactly to the original size and character, and growing things or raising animals would be part of the deal. They were never meant to be connected to the utilities needed for permanent occupation, criss-crossed with ugly tarmac roads and satellite dishes everywhere.

    And if the coastal properties aren’t selling in the present climate, I doubt if the fincas will.

  • #103465
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Definite signs of improvement

    I am doing in-depth research into the Spanish holiday-home market the likes of which does not exist today in Spain.

    Thanks to work-load of said research I’m too busy to go into it in depth right now, but I can tell you that I am seeing lots of signs of improvement.

    The market is still depressed compared to normal times, and very depressed compared to the insanity of the boom, but some things do seem to be getting better. Quality property in all price segments is selling at the right price. Demand is more diversified than ever.

    The only way to know this is to get in a car and spend weeks driving around the Spanish coasts talking to agents, developers, lawyers, and house-hunters, as I am doing. That is the only way to get a true picture and a bigger picture that what is going on in your street.

    One of these days I’ll write an article about it.

    Nice to be able to report some good news for once. 😀

  • #103466
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Best information would come from talking to people who have recently bought 💡 There should be a lot around if it’s true.

  • #103468
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Mark, information has to be in the right, in right time & in the right format. By the time you write about it. Wjhat good it will be.

  • #103470
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ???????????????????????’

  • #103471
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @mark wrote:

    I am doing in-depth research into the Spanish holiday-home market…..

    The only way to know this is to get in a car and spend weeks driving around the Spanish coasts talking to agents, developers, lawyers, and house-hunters, as I am doing. That is the only way to get a true picture…..

    Mark, I do have to question the wisdom of taking the words of three groups of people (agents, developers, lawyers) many of whom were actively involved in colluding with the original corruption.
    Agents bullshitted purchasers with investment potential and/or the legal status of properties. Developers bribed their way to do business, even using deposits to bolster their cash flow and fund other developments. Lawyers colluded with the first two groups in order to enjoy a huge flow of business, ignoring the interests of their clients. Their mass failure to obtain Bank Guarantees, their failure to ensure legality/acknowledge illegality of properties, and ignoring contact from clients once the doo-doos hit the fan being just three examples of their unprofessional behaviour.

    No doubt you will reply the ones you talked to were not of that calibre but how would you know?
    My developer had an excellent reputation, won awards in London, and is still operating from prestigious offices. Likewise my international agent and international law firm.
    To anyone not in the know, they’re the face of complete respectability.
    So having been screwed by all three groups re. my purchase, personally I would take anything any of them say with a pinch of salt.

    There is only one way to know the true state of the market – the number of sales completed.

  • #103472
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @UBEDA wrote:

    ???????????????????????’

    Your best comment ever. Keep up the good work.

  • #103474
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Thanks Charlie, answers UBEDA’s questions. I also can’t see how talking to the bullshitters proves anything, that’s why I suggested talking to people who have bought recently (shouldn’t be any problem finding them…should they? 😆 ) I know a few spanish agents, used to play golf with them. Nice guys but regarding anything to do with property they lie through their teeth…even to each other :mrgreen:

  • #103476
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @mark wrote:

    Definite signs of improvement

    I am doing in-depth research into the Spanish holiday-home market the likes of which does not exist today in Spain.

    Thanks to work-load of said research I’m too busy to go into it in depth right now, but I can tell you that I am seeing lots of signs of improvement.

    The market is still depressed compared to normal times, and very depressed compared to the insanity of the boom, but some things do seem to be getting better. Quality property in all price segments is selling at the right price. Demand is more diversified than ever.

    The only way to know this is to get in a car and spend weeks driving around the Spanish coasts talking to agents, developers, lawyers, and house-hunters, as I am doing. That is the only way to get a true picture and a bigger picture that what is going on in your street.

    One of these days I’ll write an article about it.

    Nice to be able to report some good news for once. 😀

    Good work Mark. I too am hearing things are improving on the sales side of things. Can’t wait to read your blog. Positive good news is what is needed to help move the market in Spain. And as you say, being on the ground and living it is the best way to get a true picture. Sitting on the net all day guessing and moaning about what might happen is not! 😉

  • #103477
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @jonas wrote:

    Positive good news is what is needed to help move the market in Spain.

    Which is why the bullshit from the bullshitters continues. 🙄

    And actually Jonas, what is REALLY needed to help move the market is for the Spanish Government to address the problems of property buying, some of which was listed by Ozmunky:
    Quote:
    (i) tax residency rules in Spain if you buy — a desperate country in the future looking for money isnt good for your wealth
    (ii) lack of rule of law — Spanish legal system isnt up to it if something goes wrong
    (iii) market transparency is extremely poor
    (iv) becoming a ripoff target for the local councils that have shown they are un-accountable and out of control

    Saving the best ’til last: You can buy a property/build your new home with all the legal documentation in place complete with official stamps, only to have the said documentation later revoked and your property declared illegal. How special is that?!

  • #103478
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    @jonas wrote:
    Positive good news is what is needed to help move the market in Spain.

    Which is why the bullshit from the bullshitters continues. 🙄

    quote]

    now I don’t think calling Mark a “bullshiter” is very nice or appropriate for that matter…

    I assume that is who you are referring to as all I have done is merely agree with him…. 😕

  • #103480
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Relax Jonas, I would never do that – would get booted off the forum PDQ! 😆

    Was referring to the ‘group of 3’.

  • #103481
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Charlie said”

    There is only one way to know the true state of the market – the number of sales completed.”

    Exactly Charlie, which if you look at last years figures; up 6% on 2009 at 460,000 – these figures widely reported on here; but disregarded by the “negative crowd” is a fact!!!!!!!!!…………. and don’t forget MOST people who have bought in Spain didn’t buy a problem!!! regards the “professionals”you dealt with – well, frankly It couldn’t have been to difficult to work out that they really were s_ _ m of the earth 👿 ❗ – those clothes, cars, rings and watches – never mind the accents YIKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • #103482
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Developer and lawyer/lawfirm were Spanish, agent wasn’t English either. Any other misconceptions you’d like to have a stab at?

  • #103483
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @UBEDA wrote:

    …………. and don’t forget MOST people who have bought in Spain didn’t buy a problem!!!

    But tens of thousands did, but I don’t supppose they matter much to you. Must be crushing for you having to be reminded of them.

  • #103484
    Profile photo of kgpoc
    kgpoc
    Participant

    Wow hot and bothered under the collar over a spark, but it sounds like others see the beginning of a forest fire..

    Lets not forget the US market sales volume has been rising for a year, but the price has stayed in decline.

    I did a little leg work too and sat down with 2 realtors yesterday to see their views. They are seeing an increase in sales and activity however not a single buyer has needed a mortgage… I think that spark will remain a spark in 2011..

  • #103485
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I don’t understand why everyone on here gets annoyed at any good news! Don’t make sense to me. Surely everyone on here is on here because they either want to buy or sell. Surely if the market is reaching a bottom that should be good news for all. Buyers can finally buy their apt. and sellers can sell. Or am I missing something ? The only thing I can think I am missing is maybe buyers aren’t happy with the prices and want even more of a drop! Whether people like it or not, you are going to start hearing good news about Spain at some point, so sooner rather than later I say. Mark lets see that blog!

  • #103486
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant
    jonas wrote:
    I don’t understand why everyone on here gets annoyed at any good news! Don’t make sense to me. Surely everyone on here is on here because they either want to buy or sell. Surely if the market is reaching a bottom that should be good news for all. Buyers can finally buy their apt. and sellers can sell. Or am I missing something ? The only thing I can think I am missing is maybe buyers aren’t happy with the prices and want even more of a drop! Whether people like it or not, you are going to start hearing good news about Spain at some point, so sooner rather than later I say. Mark lets see that blog!

    Of course buyers are not happy as they are certain that the asking prices are out of reality.
    Maybe unique properties can sell, but what about the millions of 2 bedroom apts. which are in over-supply?

    Spain has 20% unemployment so locals cannot afford to buy holiday properties unless they are very cheap.

    UK buyers worry about their pensions and salaries, Germans have bough as much as they could. Who else is to buy?

    Of course there is a big interest in Spanish property market but nobody is stupid to buy at the unrealistic current prices. Whoever buys now, they are knife-catchers or people who did not do their homework.

  • #103487
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @ralita wrote:

    @jonas wrote:
    I don’t understand why everyone on here gets annoyed at any good news! Don’t make sense to me. Surely everyone on here is on here because they either want to buy or sell. Surely if the market is reaching a bottom that should be good news for all. Buyers can finally buy their apt. and sellers can sell. Or am I missing something ? The only thing I can think I am missing is maybe buyers aren’t happy with the prices and want even more of a drop! Whether people like it or not, you are going to start hearing good news about Spain at some point, so sooner rather than later I say. Mark lets see that blog!

    Of course buyers are not happy as they are certain that the asking prices are out of reality.
    Maybe unique properties can sell, but what about the millions of 2 bedroom apts. which are in over-supply?

    Spain has 20% unemployment so locals cannot afford to buy holiday properties unless they are very cheap.

    UK buyers worry about their pensions and salaries, Germans have bough as much as they could. Who else is to buy?

    Of course there is a big interest in Spanish property market but nobody is stupid to buy at the unrealistic current prices. Whoever buys now, they are knife-catchers or people who did not do their homework.

    Most properties have already dropped in price, some up to a staggering 50% off boom prices. The only ones which will drop are in the run down locations where no one wants to buy anyway. I doubt very much any good value properties in good locations will drop by much more than they already have. If they are in good locations the owners will just rent them out until the market picks up as they are always rentable in good locations. It depends if you don’t mind settling for second best I suppose.
    Most buyers only go by what sites like this say so are in a lot of ways misguided. Maybe Mark will enlighten us to his findings, as things do change on the ground.

  • #103490
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Jonas I agree (more or less) about prices but not the rental. Rental income has dropped drastically and many are unable to rent at all. I know someone who bought an investment property 18 months ago at Miraflores golf. He was told the property had a long term tenant. Of course, it didn’t and it has remained unrented since that time, even after reducing to less than anyone else is asking around there.

  • #103491
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Jonas I agree (more or less) about prices but not the rental. Rental income has dropped drastically and many are unable to rent at all. I know someone who bought an investment property 18 months ago at Miraflores golf. He was told the property had a long term tenant. Of course, it didn’t and it has remained unrented since that time, even after reducing to less than anyone else is asking around there.

    As I say renting also depends on location. If it is in a good location then it will rent easily. This is why I say that the ones in the worst locations prices will drop as they will struggle to even rent. But for summer rentals properties in good locations will always rent feasably well. I speak as I own a well located property and it rents no problem. On the other hand I also have friends who have properties in second line locations in not such good areas and they are struggling to rent, but saying that, they are getting bookings for 2011. So it depends where your property is based. As far as properties on golf courses, who wants to spend their whole holiday on a golf course and pay over the odds for it with high golf fees? Thats the reason that person is struggling to rent. I wouldn’t touch an apartment on a golf course even it you gave it to me for free! ( well, maybe for free I would think about it 😀 )

  • #103492
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’m not expecting the market to blast off or anything, but I was surprised by how much activity there is.

    Norwegians in particular are out in force. They are taking advantage of up to 50pc house price falls plus a 20pc appreciation of the Norwegian Krone against the Euro, then of course they have all that oil, and not much sun. A villa in sunny Spain now looks like great value to them. Makes perfect sense.

    Bit like when the Brits had a strong pound, surging house prices, and Spain seemed cheap as chips. The difference is the Brits bought on the way up and Norwegians are buying on the way down.

    It always boils down to relative wealth and perceptions of value.

  • #103496
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I know we focus on holiday homes in popular tourist areas, but sometimes we need to look at the bigger picture.

    Latest figures from Eurostat (“housing conditions in Europe 2009”) show that 83pc of Spaniards are owner-occupiers, one of the highest levels in the EU. Only 57pc of Austrians, in contrast, are owner-occupiers.

    Spaniards are the biggest market for holiday homes in Spain, and they definitely have the property-ownership bug. You can be sure there is a lot of pent-up demand.

  • #103497
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Precisely why I pointed out that the Germans, Swedish, Dutch etc. are unlikely to be flocking to buy right now….they have some of the lowest home ownership in the world!

    The spanish are rarely in the market for 2/2 glut of homes. They cannot travel without the extended family 😆 (Infact they even do their weekly shopping in groups of 10+). They also do not go for homes with high community fees.

  • #103498
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The Spanish ownership by 83%. One of the factors is that Spanish people leave the property to the family & not to “Battersea dogs home” THe same applies in Italy .

  • #103609
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Why a Brit should buy presently is beyond me. The pound’s tumbling v the euro and the market is saturated with empty units (so the prices are still, by definition, very soft too). These are classic economic indicators as why not to buy now.
    Renting is the way to go for me. Far, far less hassle. Who wants to invest(?) in an asset that is probably overpriced, using a soft curency to buy it and paying massive expenses to buy, and hold, too?
    Let the landlord take the hassle. If the Spanish authorities are serious about encouraging foreigners to invest in property then they should address their cumbersome laws and taxes towards non-Spaniards and make it easier for us to make our minds up.
    I’d love to hear some unbiased reasons why now is a good time to buy (not from those with vested interests in talking the market up because they earn a living from property deals).

  • #103612
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @rialto wrote:

    Why a Brit should buy presently is beyond me. The pound’s tumbling v the euro and the market is saturated with empty units (so the prices are still, by definition, very soft too). These are classic economic indicators as why not to buy now.
    Renting is the way to go for me. Far, far less hassle. Who wants to invest(?) in an asset that is probably overpriced, using a soft curency to buy it and paying massive expenses to buy, and hold, too?
    Let the landlord take the hassle. If the Spanish authorities are serious about encouraging foreigners to invest in property then they should address their cumbersome laws and taxes towards non-Spaniards and make it easier for us to make our minds up.
    I’d love to hear some unbiased reasons why now is a good time to buy (not from those with vested interests in talking the market up because they earn a living from property deals).

    I guess a Brit might buy if they held a lot of money in something other than pounds (e.g. euros, gold, etc) and were looking to buy heavily discounted property in prime locations with an international appeal. Personally I agree that the Spanish market has further to fall overall, but that’s largely irrelevant since a buyer should only be concerned with the local property market where they intend to buy. Yes there is an oversupply in Spain but you have to consider where that oversupply is (and avoid it like the plague).

    Also I suspect a lot of these empty houses in Spain will simply never be bought, since they are grouped together in new towns which may well eventually be abandoned. They show up on the stats but they aren’t really part of the market.

  • #103631
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @chopera wrote:

    @rialto wrote:
    Also I suspect a lot of these empty houses in Spain will simply never be bought, since they are grouped together in new towns which may well eventually be abandoned. They show up on the stats but they aren’t really part of the market.

    Good point.

  • #103633
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant
  • #103634
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I see one golf course development in Barcelona area is offering a fixed exchange rate of 1.25 for British buyers. Good gimmick, will have been added on to the price somewhere though 😆

  • #103636
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @mark wrote:

    This is Money Q&A: What next for Spanish property?

    the spanish government will legalize all illegal property that has been stamped by their officials,they will lower the costs of buying and stop tax rises in local areas.Then all new builds will be built to a high standard and all totally legally so that buying in spain is considered risk free and a good idea 😆 no i was just dreaming
    Prices will slide a little further untill its clear if spain will need a helping hand which should be in the next few months,people buying with a good exchange rate will see bargins to be had or some half decent discounts if in the euro why us poor old brits will sit here bemoanig everyone else getting the deals while we sit on a weak pound that means we see no real price movement because of the exchange rate

  • #103643
    Profile photo of kgpoc
    kgpoc
    Participant

    Wow, Spanish ownership at 83%! Seeing as the only constant is change in the world, I am betting that number is going to start to drop. All we have to do is look at youth unemployment (40% of under 35 year olds) to see they cannot find work where they live so they will be moving more frequently, like the rest of educated Europe. This dynamic shift I suspect it will help the very big cities property but all the second tier and below will really suffer more than in the past cycles.

    Very off topic but: In my area to help the young unemployed yet educated, I organized an English social in a bar every Thursday evening where they can talk (or listen) in English with native English speakers. The bar is full with unemployed highly educated under 30 year olds, Engineers, Biochemists, medical technicians, etc, all desperately need to improve their English to apply for jobs in Europe, Australasia and Americas. Very few own houses nor even imagine buying, they are just desperate to get a job offer outside of Spain. I am sure 5 years ago not one would have imagined they would leave the area, not buy a house or need English.

    Big changes are foot for Spain, so whoever else thinks of coming to live the ‘Spanish life’ will find a different country than has been here the last 20 years.

  • #103644
    Profile photo of ozmunky
    ozmunky
    Participant

    @kgpoc wrote:

    Wow, Spanish ownership at 83%! Seeing as the only constant is change in the world, I am betting that number is going to start to drop. All we have to do is look at youth unemployment (40% of under 35 year olds) to see they cannot find work where they live so they will be moving more frequently, like the rest of educated Europe. This dynamic shift I suspect it will help the very big cities property but all the second tier and below will really suffer more than in the past cycles.

    Very off topic but: In my area to help the young unemployed yet educated, I organized an English social in a bar every Thursday evening where they can talk (or listen) in English with native English speakers. The bar is full with unemployed highly educated under 30 year olds, Engineers, Biochemists, medical technicians, etc, all desperately need to improve their English to apply for jobs in Europe, Australasia and Americas. Very few own houses nor even imagine buying, they are just desperate to get a job offer outside of Spain. I am sure 5 years ago not one would have imagined they would leave the area, not buy a house or need English.

    Big changes are foot for Spain, so whoever else thinks of coming to live the ‘Spanish life’ will find a different country than has been here the last 20 years.

    Yes.

    Markets are now saying Spain will start to feel the heat in October.

    Stubborn Irish morons insisting now that EU bondholders take a haircut instead of raising IE corp tax rate to match the rest of the EU (as if the Irish can call the shots while standing in a trench) will spark the fire.

    Greek sov’s went over 12.5% today — no country can pay credit card rates on their benefit money. Portugal may well escape with the help of Brazil.

    As for ‘Spanish Life’ — well, one has to look at the current scandal about misplaced children/orphans and the lies on paternity told on the BBC tonight to see what sort of Spain’s public service attitude you are entrusting your life savings with.

    Verdict: Spanish civil authorities could not care less about the people they are supposed to take care of. What does this say about any issues you may have as an aggrieved property owner — zero.

    So, to recap:

    (i) Lack of rule of law …. check
    (ii) Judicial system not fit for purpose … check
    (iii) Macho attitude to solving consumer issues … check
    (iv) Total lack of market transparency … check
    (v) Huge numbers of foreign owners now realising the game is up and selling … check
    (vi) Impossible number of rush-build dwellings never occupied and never will … check
    (vII) Probably the best weather in the mainland Euro zone … check
    (viii) Becoming a target for unaccountable government bodies as a property owner … check … check … double check

    Need any more be said ?

    — Munky

  • #103645
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    So, to recap:

    (i) Lack of rule of law …. check
    (ii) Judicial system not fit for purpose … check
    (iii) Macho attitude to solving consumer issues … check
    (iv) Total lack of market transparency … check
    (v) Huge numbers of foreign owners now realising the game is up and selling … check
    (vi) Impossible number of rush-build dwellings never occupied and never will … check
    (vII) Probably the best weather in the mainland Euro zone … check
    (viii) Becoming a target for unaccountable government bodies as a property owner … check … check … double check

    Need any more be said ?

    Nope…not from my ringside seat. 😉 I think you ticked most, if not all of the boxes ozmonkey.

  • #103646
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @ozmunky wrote:

    So, to recap:
    (i) Lack of rule of law …. check
    (ii) Judicial system not fit for purpose … check
    (iii) Macho attitude to solving consumer issues … check
    (iv) Total lack of market transparency … check
    (v) Huge numbers of foreign owners now realising the game is up and selling … check
    (vi) Impossible number of rush-build dwellings never occupied and never will … check
    (vII) Probably the best weather in the mainland Euro zone … check
    (viii) Becoming a target for unaccountable government bodies as a property owner … check … check … double check

    Need any more be said ?

    Perfect time to invest..!

    Whoooaaa, am joking already…! 😀 😀 😀

  • #103693
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    Is it safe?

  • #103694
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    For you guys looking to sell try and market your properties through agents that cater to the scandinavians and the russians. These groups are buying a lot at the moment.

  • #103912
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Quite an interesting article, also the comments at the bottom of the article:
    http://citywire.co.uk/money/is-it-time-to-buy-spanish-homes-again/a486424

  • #103914
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Why should we trust him & what makes him think it is now safe. This is an acknowledgement that it was not save in the past. !!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • #103915
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Instead of going around Europe trying to flog and talk up a dead horse the Spanish Government would do well to seek other forms of contribution to their economy. Just same old, same old.
    Reliance on the vagaries of property and construction is why the country is in such a mess.
    Spain need new industries and new ideas. Green technology expertise is one area they could promote instead of just more of the same hat. Have they learned nothing?

  • #103917
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @mark wrote:

    Quite an interesting article, also the comments at the bottom of the article:
    http://citywire.co.uk/money/is-it-time-to-buy-spanish-homes-again/a486424

    problem is that small upturn is from people within the euro and probably relates to the scandinavians returning to the market as the discounted prices are to them a bonus,getting the brits to return is another matter with the pound being so low to us there is no difference to peak prices and you had to be a fool to pay those prices

  • #103919
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Flogging the dead horse pays for their travel, hotel, drinks etc

  • #103921
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Majority of comments seem to agree with above posts. Here’s one

    I would like to meet Mr Blanco and suggest the Bank of Spain return my 100,000 euros currently sat in a Spanish Bank Account and I would consider spending time back in his 3rd world country…

    Today there is this a report in Sur which says “House Sales are touching the floor”

    http://www.diariosur.es/v/20110414/malaga/operaciones-compraventa-tocan-suelo-20110414.html

    All these articles always mention Spain’s housing market was sunk by the credit crunch…It wasn’t it had been on the way down a few years before. The spanish did it all by themselves with overbuilding ugly urbanisations and corruption.

  • #103925
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    All these articles always mention Spain’s housing market was sunk by the credit crunch…It wasn’t it had been on the way down a few years before. The spanish did it all by themselves with overbuilding ugly urbanisations and corruption.

    I would agree with that. But let’s face it, they were helped along by large numbers of predominantly Brits and Irish indiscriminately buying rubbish off-plan, and foreign creditors (German banks) falling over themselves to lend the money to make it all happen. There’s plenty of blame to go around.

  • #103926
    Profile photo of ozmunky
    ozmunky
    Participant

    @mark wrote:

    Quite an interesting article, also the comments at the bottom of the article:
    http://citywire.co.uk/money/is-it-time-to-buy-spanish-homes-again/a486424

    Hello Mark

    I wish it were, but sadly due to the reasons in my post above it will not be until a generational shift in thinking occurs in Spain and its populace which will take more than our lifetimes. I wish it were different but I am now of the view Spain isn’t up to it and wont be.

    Why on earth would would you purchase an asset that is so toxic just because of the weather/lifestyle ?

    Even if you do OK on the buy side, you will be murdered (by the authorities who want to tax you to death and possibly others as a result of lax police) whilst you own it and who knows what will happen when you have to sell it or pass it on.

    Might as well push leaky nuclear plants in the sunshine it has the same effect in the end.

    I was thinking the other day — why have all the good posters over the years left SPI ? (mariadecastro, drakan, pablo, Inez etc …) although Chris is still with us — I think its because they all know the situation is pretty hopeless unless drastic action is taken by someone who is brave in Government — which I dont think will happen unless a Spanish Churchill evolves from siesta.

    — Munky

  • #103931
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Mario de castro is busy picking up loads of clients on another forum, Drakan took quite a lot of abuse for other spanish Lawyers, Inez seems to have left the property business, don’t know about Pablo. I don’t think many people are actually interested in spanish property right now.

  • #103932
    Profile photo of ozmunky
    ozmunky
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Mario de castro is busy picking up loads of clients on another forum, Drakan took quite a lot of abuse for other spanish Lawyers, Inez seems to have left the property business, don’t know about Pablo. I don’t think many people are actually interested in spanish property right now.

    Yes, Katy you are right.

    Just read the other forum and see some familiar names and situations.

    All of which echo my previous points sadly and your point of current lack of interest in spanish property.

    — Munky

  • #103933
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I miss Drakan 🙁

    It’s true the market has shrunk a great deal, but there are still people buying. I know of 2 family friends (British, but old Africa expats) who are in the process of buying, one in Sitges and one in Sotogrande. They are taking advantage of this market.

  • #103934
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Me too, hope he is doing well.

  • #103936
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Mark.
    In view of the lack of interest in Spanish property, now and in the near future and slow forum traffic as a result would now not be a good time to expand the forums remit? Why not discuss other areas of business opportunity in Spain? New ideas for investment would be stimulating topics.
    It has always seemed to me a tad narrow simply keeping the principal interest only second home ownership.
    I’m looking at the moment for opportunities to invest in alternative energy. Spain is ideally placed. Sun and wind in abundance with EU grants for the right projects.
    Hows that as an idea for a start. 🙂

  • #103938
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    Mark.
    In view of the lack of interest in Spanish property, now and in the near future and slow forum traffic as a result would now not be a good time to expand the forums remit? Why not discuss other areas of business opportunity in Spain? New ideas for investment would be stimulating topics.
    It has always seemed to me a tad narrow simply keeping the principal interest only second home ownership.
    I’m looking at the moment for opportunities to invest in alternative energy. Spain is ideally placed. Sun and wind in abundance with EU grants for the right projects.
    Hows that as an idea for a start. 🙂

    looking else where for investments is a good idea i recently invested in an over seas venture and saw a return of 20%.If in Hong Kong go take a look.
    http://dhlhongkongballoon.com/

  • #103944
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    I though I read yesterday that there was a 27% fall in one month, in China.

  • #103947
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @peterhun wrote:

    I though I read yesterday that there was a 27% fall in one month, in China.

    this was a safe investment as soon as dhl signed up to advertise. it was just the aviation people who were a pain apparently hong kong is not the same as china as they don’t really produce anything to sell on the scale china does so is not effected in the same way.

  • #103966
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    Hi guys,

    Whilst Im not active in the property market any more, I still have a huge interest and I guess always will have after 27 years in the business.

    One of the reasons I am personally not so active is mostly the posts are repetitive and even people asking for info ask the same questions, most of the answers are in the forum.

    With regards to the market as a general, people are buying and certainly looking, interestingly in the higher bracket levels. I know of an Italian private pilot who has just bought in La Quinta with a budget of 450k, a Canadian family looking to relocate who are out next month and an english family looking to buy a villa with a budget of 700 to 850k, they have 2 sons who will go to university in the next 2 years but until then they will use it for the summer months – their business is based in Hong Kong. Thats not including others looking for apartments or the spanish who still do have money and who are collecting cheaper apartments, mainly estepona way.

    I also met a guy yesterday who is starting work for a company who, with investment backers, have just bought a completed but vacant urbanisation of 2 bed apartments and will be selling them on with the banks mortgage covering the purchase price.

    Its never going to get back to the mad days of the past but there is movement and I would say there is more movement than in the last recession.

    The main problem is getting finance through and certainly for higher loan requests the banks are placing stricter criteria than for smaller loans.

    Interesting times indeed.

  • #103968
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    Mark.
    In view of the lack of interest in Spanish property, now and in the near future and slow forum traffic as a result would now not be a good time to expand the forums remit? Why not discuss other areas of business opportunity in Spain? New ideas for investment would be stimulating topics.
    It has always seemed to me a tad narrow simply keeping the principal interest only second home ownership.
    I’m looking at the moment for opportunities to invest in alternative energy. Spain is ideally placed. Sun and wind in abundance with EU grants for the right projects.
    Hows that as an idea for a start. 🙂

    Thanks for the suggestion. You can always start a thread on that subject and see how it goes. I have my doubts about trying to expand into other areas. I think I might just end up with lots of empty forums. 😕

  • #103970
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Inez, While accepting your comments & you not being in property feild anymore is not accpeted by me & I am sure the rest of the forum.

    As you have accepted the period that you have been in the property, you have a wealth of knowledge in all aspects of it and it will be a great shame to let it waste by not updating yourself & having some kind of involvement. I appreciate that you may have a restrictive trading clause when you sold Direct Auction .

    I recall in one of our meeting many years ago. I had told you that Property gets into one’s system & to mix it with Spain makes people serious junkies. Keeping this in mind you must have been to a property “Rehab” otherwise you cannot withdraw from it.

    I demand that you continue with your pearls of wisdom otherwise EU will be having another petition against Spain. Surely we dont want the most effecient body (EU) to be clogged up with another issue.

  • #103974
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    Hahaha Shakeel – no Im still a junkie – was talking to a neighbour today about the market and I am in contact with all sorts of people from varying sides of the fence!

    No restrictive trading clauses, I myself am no longer interested in actively selling property but I still maintain an active interest from the armchair with regards to Direct Auctions.

    I do look on this forum daily but to be honest the statistics side of it can be hard work and I have more pressing things to do, like enjoy myself than to try and analyse too much, and certainly reading some of the links here would make one want to slit ones wrists at times!

    I promise to add more postings.

    Have a great Sunday, we are off to the beach before the roast lamb dinner.

  • #103975
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Statistics and financial markets are fun too 🙂 Horses for courses.
    I do think however a separation of forum threads would be better than lumping things all together. It may even attract more simulating debate.
    Since the property market is directly affected by exterior financial movements in the world it is actually more relevant to discuss that.
    Understanding it better helps you to anticipate future market fluctuations and trends. Property, in Spain or elsewhere is not a market in isolation. It’s just another commodity.
    I do realise that’s a turn off for some but not everyone.

  • #103980
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    The problem with analysing the Spanish property market is there is no reliable data (well it’s not available to the public anyway). My own experience in Madrid is that tasaciones are about 10% above market value: I moved house last year and the tasación for both the flat we sold and the flat we bought came in at 10% above the actual agreed prices. That’s hardly a big statistical sample for rigorous analysis – but it was enough to let me know that what stats there are (e.g TINSA) are if anything intended to hide the truth rather than reveal it.

  • #103987
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    Official bank valuations have always been way over actual selling prices – this is one of the reasons for what is happening now, people leveraged at 130% loans to purchase price and no the actual figures are not recorded anywhere. Add in the B money to really skewer the full picture.

    Each property is different, some tasaciones come in as the purchase price, in my experience they are considerably higher than 10%.

  • #103988
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    Hi Logan – my other half is into statistics and analysis, but having dealt with buyers most of my life I can honestly say logic rarely comes into it!

    I have known many investor type buyers who do buy on logic, then there are the rest, some of whom who wont buy what they see as the perfect house because a wall is the wrong colour! Go figure!!! 🙂

    Looking at all the frightening stats out there you would wonder why anyone would buy – I had my fingers burned back on the 1990’s and am probably one of the most cautious people now with regards to buying and I am at the moment renting to give me flexibility.

    But there are buyers out there, not many from the UK, and all with differing reasons.

    Property will always turn around, sometimes just more slowly than others.

  • #103990
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @inez wrote:

    But there are buyers out there, not many from the UK, and all with differing reasons.
    Property will always turn around, sometimes just more slowly than others.

    I agree Inez. The reason why the property market in Spain from an investment perspective is difficult to call is because there are so many other people in the mix buying for unpredictable emotional reasons, so called life style effect.
    In most other normal investment markets that factor is not there.
    However in normal times it’s also precisely that factor which brings the returns.
    I think you will agree these are not normal times. The buyers who are still around are in the emotional category and have the ability to buy outright.
    Investors for return will stay away for a very long time until the economy of the whole of Europe starts to perform once again.

  • #103992
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    There was yet another endless top ten lists of where to buy property in the Telegraph yesterday 🙄 Can’t find the link but here they are

    1. Tuscany, Italy
    2. Florida
    3. Tarn, France
    4. Western Cape, South Africa
    5. Barbados
    6. Berlin
    7. Turkey
    8. Brussels
    9. Malta
    10. Atlanta (USA)

    Flimsiest of reasons as to why these, seems like just a piece to give their advertisers a mention. Tuscany because it’s still popular with brits and accessible (which is the reason given for a few places!). Berlin because not many Germans buy and prefer to rent (knocks the theory that lots of Germans are buying in Spain). Turkey incase they join the EU. Atlanta as you get 2 years rent guaranteed with Social Housing schemes. Brussels may be a good investment as there are so many people employed there who won’t buy as on 3 year posts.

    I think the British love affair with owning a second home has ended. Worked ok. when just a few did it but when even the local Postman had one it flopped everywhere. However, I do know someone who bought in Miami after I showed them a link provided by someone on here, can’t remember who? Was a bit tempted myself 😀

  • #103994
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @inez wrote:

    Official bank valuations have always been way over actual selling prices – this is one of the reasons for what is happening now, people leveraged at 130% loans to purchase price and no the actual figures are not recorded anywhere. Add in the B money to really skewer the full picture.

    Each property is different, some tasaciones come in as the purchase price, in my experience they are considerably higher than 10%.

    I thought that the figures were stored somewhere since you can pay the council to find out the last sold price of a property. But I might be mistaken.

  • #103998
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @chopera wrote:

    The problem with analysing the Spanish property market is there is no reliable data (well it’s not available to the public anyway). My own experience in Madrid is that tasaciones are about 10% above market value: I moved house last year and the tasación for both the flat we sold and the flat we bought came in at 10% above the actual agreed prices. That’s hardly a big statistical sample for rigorous analysis – but it was enough to let me know that what stats there are (e.g TINSA) are if anything intended to hide the truth rather than reveal it.

    what sort of stats are you looking for?

  • #104002
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @fuengi wrote:

    @chopera wrote:
    The problem with analysing the Spanish property market is there is no reliable data (well it’s not available to the public anyway). My own experience in Madrid is that tasaciones are about 10% above market value: I moved house last year and the tasación for both the flat we sold and the flat we bought came in at 10% above the actual agreed prices. That’s hardly a big statistical sample for rigorous analysis – but it was enough to let me know that what stats there are (e.g TINSA) are if anything intended to hide the truth rather than reveal it.

    what sort of stats are you looking for?

    The actual prices properties sell for would be a start. In the UK you can have on-line access to all land registry prices dating back over 10 years. In Spain there’s nothing like that. Not only would it be useful for analysis but also both buyers and sellers would have a much better idea of what is a fair price for a property and it might help speed up the property market. And finally it would force Spanish banks to mark to market so we can get the crash out of the way and start moving on.

  • #104004
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    @ Chopera – the local notary office may provide you with a certificate of sale showing the actual purchase price. There is a cost, I think its around 60 euros. However, if there is B money involved then it wont be correct anyway

    @logan, although times are maybe difficult, in some way there is a comparison with ‘normal’. When I first came to Spain, and long before that, non residents couldnt get a mortgage. In fact it was unusual for a Spaniard to take one – many working in black money with no books or accounts so no proof of income. Therefore it was lifestyle purchase (like my parents) and in cash or with funds raised on collateral in ones home country. Personally I see todays market as more normal as opposed to the madness of the late 90s through the 2000’s. People before then didnt buy to let, they bought for full time use or for holiday use and rented full time around their summer vacation when you had to vacate for the owner (I rented a house like that for 3 years and had to vacate for 2 weeks every July). There was a serious shortage of rental properties (I came out in 95), nothing in the papers and you only got one through knowing a contact and having been approved by them.

    It was a few years on that the builds started going up for the ‘investors’, many of whom flipped units several times before an end buyer completed and kept the property. Word then got out, everyone and his dog wanted to do it and here you have the result of all that. You could buy a one bed seafront Fuengirola for 2 million pesetas, around 10k in those days, 2 or 3 bed flats were in the region of 4-7 million pesetas, 20 – 35k sterling with the exchange rate at the time!

  • #104005
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Inez, God you are ancient. “You could buy a one bed seafront Fuengirola for 2 million pesetas, around 10k in those days”

  • #104008
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Ah yes Inez, I remember those times well.
    I started developing in the late seventies when Marbella was a small chic resort occupied by Europe’s minor aristocracy.
    The Spanish people all got around on donkeys, or ‘putt putts’ and expats had a wonderful time.
    Cost of living was dirt cheap and you could buy hundreds of acres of prime sea front land for the price of a second hand car. No planning permission existed, just a nod from the Mayor given over a good lunch.
    Happy days. 🙂
    My point being that Spain has changed forever. It’s now a modern European state with all the positive and negative factors that change brings. Investor speculation being just one.
    Where things went wrong was gullible people without any expertise in property investment were conned by a generation of commission driven unscrupulous agents and sellers with cheap easy credit to buy useless property off plan in the hope of flipping vast rewards.
    I doubt Spain will see the like of that again.
    However the mess they left behind will take a very long time to clean up.
    Spain and the market will eventually recover.
    I predict the country will become just like any other EU state where it’s population buy homes to live in and where good employment can be found.
    Coastal regions will still have their second homes but the speculators/investors, including myself will be long gone.

  • #104010
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @logan – to be fair, being able to buy up “hundreds of acres of prime sea front land for the price of a second hand car. No planning permission existed, just a nod from the Mayor given over a good lunch.” might have been great for the developer but it hasn’t done wonders for Spain’s coasts

  • #104012
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @chopera wrote:

    @logan – to be fair, being able to buy up “hundreds of acres of prime sea front land for the price of a second hand car. No planning permission existed, just a nod from the Mayor given over a good lunch.” might have been great for the developer but it hasn’t done wonders for Spain’s coasts

    Agreed, no excuses. 😳
    It was done because it could be done. Spain failed to control it, so people made fortunes. That’s unfettered capitalism. It’s an ugly truth.

  • #104015
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    @Shakeel OY!! 🙂

    @logan, yes I totally agree with all you say. Things have changed forever and you caught things on the rise. Without industry there is no reason for people to live here, although with the way the internet is changing that who knows? It will still take an awful long time for the Costa to establish itself that way as the coast is so big. One of the reasons prices have held in Marbella as it is possibly the only place where a density of people want to live, therefore demand is steady. I used to be involved in development in the UK in the mid 80s – the nod and wink ethics of town halls there were just as shall we say flexible? lol

    Have a great day all.

  • #104018
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I was also in Spain during the flipping madness, but luckily (or otherwise) concentrated on another way of making money at that time. I therefore observed the concreting over of two large coastlines from a distance, metaphorically, mostly.

    I watched the quality of the new building decrease alarmingly over the greedy years, not having had a high base to start with. Untrained workers, many foreign, were erecting structures that started to crack within months of completion, and the infrastructure was never completed before the next urbanisation grew out of the bush with foundations unsuitable for a wooden garden shed, and proper water and electrical installation but a distant dream. They sometimes dug a small cesspit for the new arrivals.

    Even until a few months ago, banks and cajas were granting mortgages to the most unsuitable of applicants, with either no financial history, or one downloaded from the internet.

    It has all come well unstuck now, with a vengeance. Cajas especially are being forced to place their reluctant repossessions on the open market and the market is laughing at their valuations. Those properties are impossible to sell and I doubt that even a reduction of 50% of the advertised value will make any difference.

  • #104199
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    When my parents had a house in marbella the groceries were delivered by horse and cart. The Mayor used to come for a game of Dominos if Grandfather was there. Some businessmen approached my Father with a proposal to build on Sotogrande marina….he said people would never be interested in a place so far from marbella. 😆

    Lost all it’s glamour now, not exotic enough. Can remember watching Aristole Oanassis (?) yacht and seeing liveried footmen moving around. Duke of Windsor etc. Now it’s Russian mafia, Zelebrities. Italian and french Riviera managed to remain intact, Amalfi coast hasn’t changed…Spain killed the platinum egg.

    Good to see the building “madness” has faded. A few years ago Agents were dashing all over, most of them who knew nothing about Spain and re-inventing themselves as “property experts” when all they had done is work in Woolworths 🙄

  • #104023
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    When my parents had a house in marbella the groceries were delivered by horse and cart. The Mayor used to come for a game of Dominos if Grandfather was there. Some businessmen approached my Father with a proposal to build on Sotogrande marina….he said people would never be interested in a place so far from marbella. 😆

    Lost all it’s glamour now, not exotic enough. Can remember watching Aristole Oanassis (?) yacht and seeing liveried footmen moving around. Duke of Windsor etc. Now it’s Russian mafia, Zelebrities. Italian and french Riviera managed to remain intact, Amalfi coast hasn’t changed…Spain killed the platinum egg.

    Good to see the building “madness” has faded. A few years ago Agents were dashing all over, most of them who knew nothing about Spain and re-inventing themselves as “property experts” when all they had done is work in Woolworths 🙄

  • #104215
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I loved Marbella in the ‘old days.’ It was a civilized place.
    If you want to know who to blame for it’s demise look no further than a certain Jesus Gill y Gill. 🙁 He set the benchmark for others to follow.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jes%C3%BAs_Gil

  • #104031
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I loved Marbella in the ‘old days.’ It was a civilized place.
    If you want to know who to blame for it’s demise look no further than a certain Jesus Gill y Gill. 🙁 He set the benchmark for others to follow.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jes%C3%BAs_Gil

  • #104217
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    @chopera wrote:
    @logan – to be fair, being able to buy up “hundreds of acres of prime sea front land for the price of a second hand car. No planning permission existed, just a nod from the Mayor given over a good lunch.” might have been great for the developer but it hasn’t done wonders for Spain’s coasts

    Agreed, no excuses. 😳
    It was done because it could be done. Spain failed to control it, so people made fortunes. That’s unfettered capitalism. It’s an ugly truth.

    Of course the buck stops with the “planning authorities” – or those responsible for the fact that there weren’t any planning authorities! If I had the chance of making serious money by developing a coastal area then I can’t honestly say that I wouldn’t take it. Also all those cheap developments gave the chance to “live the dream” to many people who weren’t quite able to afford St Tropez. I just think it’s a shame that just a little thought didn’t go into it all. It’s a problem you see all over Spain as well. I’m no town planner but even basic things like not building huge blocks of flats on the skyline, or making streets follow the natural contours of the landscape seem to go straight over the heads of Spanish planning departments.

  • #104032
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    @chopera wrote:
    @logan – to be fair, being able to buy up “hundreds of acres of prime sea front land for the price of a second hand car. No planning permission existed, just a nod from the Mayor given over a good lunch.” might have been great for the developer but it hasn’t done wonders for Spain’s coasts

    Agreed, no excuses. 😳
    It was done because it could be done. Spain failed to control it, so people made fortunes. That’s unfettered capitalism. It’s an ugly truth.

    Of course the buck stops with the “planning authorities” – or those responsible for the fact that there weren’t any planning authorities! If I had the chance of making serious money by developing a coastal area then I can’t honestly say that I wouldn’t take it. Also all those cheap developments gave the chance to “live the dream” to many people who weren’t quite able to afford St Tropez. I just think it’s a shame that just a little thought didn’t go into it all. It’s a problem you see all over Spain as well. I’m no town planner but even basic things like not building huge blocks of flats on the skyline, or making streets follow the natural contours of the landscape seem to go straight over the heads of Spanish planning departments.

  • #104225
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Logan: you got it spot on. He was is disgusting man & lowest of the lowest form. You just had to hear him speak & you would realise.

  • #104036
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Logan: you got it spot on. He was is disgusting man & lowest of the lowest form. You just had to hear him speak & you would realise.

  • #104227
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @shakeel wrote:

    Logan: you got it spot on. He Was is disgusting man & lowest of the lowest form. You just to hear him him speak & you would realise.

    I did in public and private and he made my flesh creep. 😈

  • #104037
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @shakeel wrote:

    Logan: you got it spot on. He Was is disgusting man & lowest of the lowest form. You just to hear him him speak & you would realise.

    I did in public and private and he made my flesh creep. 😈

  • #104235
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I do not speak about anybody with such feelings specially if he/she is no longer with us. In his case I would make an exception. A man who had killed 28 people in the collapse of the building can sleep at night & has the nerve to stand for a Mayor says it all.

    His son’s agency Jilmar still has branches in Marbella. ( To the best of my knowledge the agency belongs to his son ) His son was also Mayor of Estepona.

  • #104041
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I do not speak about anybody with such feelings specially if he/she is no longer with us. In his case I would make an exception. A man who had killed 28 people in the collapse of the building can sleep at night & has the nerve to stand for a Mayor says it all.

    His son’s agency Jilmar still has branches in Marbella. ( To the best of my knowledge the agency belongs to his son ) His son was also Mayor of Estepona.

  • #104238
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    people may not know that he Jesus Jil ) was a car mechanic.

  • #104042
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    people may not know that he Jesus Jil ) was a car mechanic.

  • #104246
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Let us not forget he did not act alone and many of his cohorts are still active in marbella!

  • #104046
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Let us not forget he did not act alone and many of his cohorts are still active in marbella!

  • #104266
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I left the CDS not long after Jesus Gil was voted into power, and when the Russians started to arrive in numbers. Brown envelopes was always the way business was done in Spain and I was in business, but dealt strictly through my Spanish partner and lawyer.

    I had some good years down that way and still remember most of them fondly, but knew that it was bound to end in tears. I still think the turning point (for me) was when my local paper shop ran out of brown envelopes.

  • #104066
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I left the CDS not long after Jesus Gil was voted into power, and when the Russians started to arrive in numbers. Brown envelopes was always the way business was done in Spain and I was in business, but dealt strictly through my Spanish partner and lawyer.

    I had some good years down that way and still remember most of them fondly, but knew that it was bound to end in tears. I still think the turning point (for me) was when my local paper shop ran out of brown envelopes.

  • #104267
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    I still think the turning point (for me) was when my local paper shop ran out of brown envelopes.

    😆 😆

  • #104067
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    I still think the turning point (for me) was when my local paper shop ran out of brown envelopes.

    😆 😆

  • #104716
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    New mortgage lending down 43pc to 12 billion Euros in first 4 months of the year compared to same period last year, according to the Bank of Spain.

    Idealista.com asking price index down 7.4pc YOY in May to 2,194 euros/m2, and 0.3pc MOM.


    http://www.idealista.com/news/archivo/2011/06/01/0327981-indice-idealista-mayo-descubre-cuanto-bajo-la-vivienda-en-tu-zona-tablas

  • #104719
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Planning approvals down 7.4pc YOY to 21.807 in Q1. Terrible time to be in the residential building trade in Spain.

  • #104760
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Not that I’m optimistic about the future of Spanish property for some while yet, but I think planning approvals being down will ultimately help the property market as it would be better to clear more of the unsolds first whilst having less new development flooding an already saturated market.

  • #104775
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Not that I’m optimistic about the future of Spanish property for some while yet, but I think planning approvals being down will ultimately help the property market as it would be better to clear more of the unsolds first whilst having less new development flooding an already saturated market.

    Completely agree with you. They should actually put a complete stop to new builds, it is madness to be building anything at the moment until unsold new builds have decreased.

  • #104782
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    That is one reason why Mallorca have fared better % wise. It has been hard for years even before the crisis to get planning permits there.

  • #104808
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @jonas wrote:

    Completely agree with you. They should actually put a complete stop to new builds, it is madness to be building anything at the moment until unsold new builds have decreased.

    The problem is they built a lot of rubbish that nobody wants in places nobody wants. There is a shortage of the kind of property people want in places they want, so they do actually need to start building again soon.

  • #104810
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @mark wrote:

    There is a shortage of the kind of property people want in places they want, so they do actually need to start building again soon.

    I see this as good news to be honest. If there is a shortage of the kind of properties people want in places they want, this means anyone with desirable properties in good locations should sell! That’s a start at least!

  • #104821
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @mark wrote:

    @jonas wrote:
    Completely agree with you. They should actually put a complete stop to new builds, it is madness to be building anything at the moment until unsold new builds have decreased.

    The problem is they built a lot of rubbish that nobody wants in places nobody wants. There is a shortage of the kind of property people want in places they want, so they do actually need to start building again soon.

    It seems that in Madrid at least newly built flats have been priced at similar levels, regardless of where they are located. So you have the scenario where flats in new but less desirable areas towards the south of Madrid cost not much less than similar flats in more central areas. So of course the few people looking to buy right now are going to choose the more central places.

    For example there seems to be a lot of new development going on in the Valdebebas area of Madrid, which is located in the more desirable north. A lot of it is pisos de protección, i.e. subsidised by the local government, but I’ve also noticed a few open cooperativas that do seem to be selling. However move further south of Madrid to PAU de Vallecas for example, and there are still plenty of unsold flats that have been built in the last five years, but still priced at the same levels as Valdebebas. I can’t see how anybody is going to buy there unless they reduce the prices.

  • #104830
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Mark, I agree that they built a lot of poor property in places people don’t want to be, but what does Spain do with these short of knocking them all down, or use for social housing? Until they are disposed of somehow, they are going to generally keep average prices down because who knows exactly how many there are, 1 million, 2 million?

    Spain does need more good quality build though.

  • #104845
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    124,542 house sales registered in Q1, up 34pc on previous quarter, according to latest figures from the Property Registry. Not much to get excited about though, as the increase can be explained by the abolition of mortgage tax relief bringing forward sales. As a result, registered sales expected to slump in Q2.

  • #104849
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    44,297 new homes were finished in Q1, 37pc less than the same period last year, according to the latest figures from the Govt. (Fomento)

  • #104850
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Home evictions (for failing to pay the rent) hit an all-time-high of 14,491 in Q1, 36% higher than last year, and triple the rate of 3 years ago.

  • #104863
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Expected slump in home sales in Q1 confirmed by latest figures from the Govt. (Fomento).

    74,540 home sales in Q1, 50pc down on previous quarter and 30pc down on same time last year. January was down 75pc compared to December.

    Slump in sales can be explained by elimination of mortgage tax credit as of 01/01/11 bringing forward sales into last quarter of 2010. No surprises there.

  • #104866
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Can’t be true. Haven’t we been hearing for the last few months sales are going through the roof 😆

  • #105043
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    BBVA forecasts 100,000 planning approvals this year, up 9% on last year.

  • #105044
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    José Blanco, Minister of Public Works (and housing) grudgingly admits that the government “could have done more” to prevent the property bubble.

  • #105052
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Did not grudgingly admitted the corruption & lack of accountabilty !!!!!!!!!

  • #105239
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Spanish Mortgages Decline at the Fastest Rate Since the Housing Boom Ended

    The number of mortgages issued for Spanish homes in April registered a drop unseen since the end of the housing boom, confirming the weakness of a real-estate market that is penalizing the country’s banks and growth.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-22/spanish-mortgages-decline-at-the-fastest-rate-since-the-housing-boom-ended.html

  • #105240
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    ……There was I thinking “things were getting better”.(not)
    Now where did I read that? Ah yes the estate agents on the forum. 🙄 and also the last person trying to sell me something I didn’t want. 🙂

  • #105261
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    ……There was I thinking “things were getting better”.(not)
    Now where did I read that? Ah yes the estate agents on the forum. 🙄 and also the last person trying to sell me something I didn’t want. 🙂

    Don’t be silly, nobody is going to try and sell you anything, we sales people have seen your face coming in the door 😈 we just politely turn you around and show you back to the door!

    Nooo, we know immediately that firstly you cannot afford it yet, which gets your goat really. Pity cos maybe we could have helped or advised, but your back is already up and so puts the first supercilious expression on your face, then we figure probably we can’t help you buy, we can see in your slump set shoulders, it, and so as we are way smarter than you, as we are so used to spotting your bizarre time wasting false interest from a mile away, we then do ourselves a favour, spin you round and head you off out the door. We know just like you – YOU DON’T WANT IT – the only thing we cannot understand is why you came in the bloody door in the first place? Or should I say forum?

    As for things getting better, well there you are with your constant indexed references to a thousand google links, to some of the most discredited individuals on the planet, financial journalists and commentators, professors, senior banking figures the whole kit and caboodle, who had not a bloody clue the day before any of the several cataclysmic events occurred in the recent crisis. And who have not got a bloody clue about what comes next, yet either.

    No, you lunge on another headline, and then diss the estate agents, who have told you – but you don’t LISTEN – that sales this year are indeed again up, but you won’t get that google report confirmation for another six- twelve months. In my business we don’t tell lies, so now hear this, April was a stonking good month, a fabulous end to the first third of the year, May started fine but it has been like pulling teeth ever since. As result so far June has sucked a bit, but you know what roll on July!

    So who knows better? Me FACTUAL / ACTUAL / COALFACE or you, who seems to me to be the rather dubious self professed saviour “if I do one thing on this site and stop people buying a property I will have saved the world – let us praise him in his almighty the all sageful Uncle Logan”

    I put it to you, again, you haven’t got a clue, and over a period of time I will prove it to you, at least I can talk openly about a business I am in day to day, your business is… well we don’t know do we? We have no proof of your success, failure, qualifications, history or otherwise, for some of us agents on here, much of what we are as is excruciatingly exposed to the cold icy elements of public scrutiny .

    So I think we we can do without the likes of you dissing us I think!

    Action still speaks a lot louder than words, I have an increased from 20,000 to bonus 10,000 magazines hitting the streets next week, promotional teams, delivery teams, and well more than 50 odd people earning their wages and paying their rents, you will make you eat your facetious, ill informed and miserable asides.

    Try to pick up the thing about the forum, you can make yourself an idiot I have done it loads of times, I am doing it again here for some, but you have to recognise some people also get it right sometimes. Googling just isn’t the be and end all.

  • #105263
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    In the art of professional mud slinging Chris you are a rank amateur. Your continued attempts is discredit my views and opinions will be seen by most fair minded observers as rather a pointless, silly and spiteful exercise.

    My personal dislike of estate agents has been acquired through many years of experience. I have yet to find one who puts their clients interests before that of their own. I have also never yet heard anyone in the property selling business admit that the market is dead and unlikely to recover for some time.

    I am entitled to have a contrary view to yours and shall continue to express it and post web links to illustrate a point when and wherever I wish both here and elsewhere.

  • #105264
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    @logan wrote:
    ……There was I thinking “things were getting better”.(not)
    Now where did I read that? Ah yes the estate agents on the forum. 🙄 and also the last person trying to sell me something I didn’t want. 🙂

    . In my business we don’t tell lies, .

    😆 😆 😆 its what all estate agents do,and the only reason they are estate agents is they were not smart enough to be politicians

  • #105265
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    It was Mark not Logan who has been providing the figures for this thread. He only made a comment as I did :mrgreen:

  • #105273
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    In the art of professional mud slinging Chris you are a rank amateur. Your continued attempts is discredit my views and opinions will be seen by most fair minded observers as rather a pointless, silly and spiteful exercise.

    My personal dislike of estate agents has been acquired through many years of experience. I have yet to find one who puts their clients interests before that of their own. I have also never yet heard anyone in the property selling business admit that the market is dead and unlikely to recover for some time.

    I am entitled to have a contrary view to yours and shall continue to express it and post web links to illustrate a point when and wherever I wish both here and elsewhere.

    True, to the first para it seems the same to me, I wish there was someone more able for the job, but what the heck, amateur or no, if you want to sit at your computer and disrespect people with witless and gutless asides, then go ahead, but don’t expect that some rank amateur might not come along and at least take a stab at popping your pompous and voluminous ass. You wanna throw some mud, then expect some right back, I care less how you view me or my fumbling attempts to do so. You threw it first remember.

    There are many people on this forum of all shapes and sizes, and all deserving of respect, particularly the men and women who have had; in years gone by, miserable and let’s be honest desperate experiences of buying property in Spain, and there are those who are actively brave enough to be investigating doing so in the future, plus those who have been in and out of the market many times, been residents, holiday homers, and well just all sorts, and then here and there is the odd agent, who might also be a mix of the other types too.

    Many people on the forum might rightly and royally deserve to have a pop at us REA’s as a group, you on the other hand as a self claimed – bank distressed, big volume, vulture purchaser, from way back in the 70’s when you last had some success, have a limited right to disrespect me or my kind without rebuke, so am afraid, off to the place of no sunshine and stick it there, is still my response to you am afraid.

    As to your second para; being your oft and now again, referred to – many years of experience and in this regard; culminating in a dislike of REA’s, that’s just the kind of generalised waffle and claptrap you come out with which exposes you as previously stated pompous and voluminous ass. I could stick my neck out here and advise you that I have been involved in the sale of over 11,500 individual properties in Spain in my time, so far, and please let it continue because I live in dread of it not, but so far I don’t see a whole pile of people on this forum complaining about how I or my company dealt with their interests. What you say in your personal view is just rubbish, and as poor as I am and as spiteful as I may be, well I will try to offer a contrary view myself if I think something is just self serving waffle which your comment here is.

    As to your final para, you are entirely correct and that much I certainly respect. If I can have my say, you sure can have yours, and am sure that by and large you will have many people on your side and I may have absolutely none on mine, but I will live with that. At least I know I am out here in the open though.

    I entirely respect and understand the benefits of anonymity on forums such as this and believe it works and is crucial to the debate in almost all cases. However, if you are going to say certain things or take certain positions then you need to back them up somewhat, come just a bit more out into the open, edge a bit out there if you want to be really credible…

    Remember, nobody knows you Uncle Logan, you don’t say what your business really is, you don’t say what you really do, what your overall contribution to society is, if any, there is no hint of your ultimate goals or objectives, beyond being evidently pissed that you can’t get the banks to sell you a job lot of someone else’s losses, so that you can go off and sell them on again, at a profit, to a bunch of poor souls who perhaps should have gone to an Estate Agent instead, nooo…

    You set yourself up as some economic guru, experienced and seasoned investor / altruistic advisor on all things property in Spain, though you live in France, and you spend all day sending us any whiff of an article that pronounces some sort of issue with any part of the Spanish economy, nothing ever negative about France or the UK it seems, and yes I sometimes sit and just wonder why you bother?

    Oh, yes you once told us, its your mission to save any one poor soul from investing in the same Spanish property market, this being the same market that you would buy into, at the drop of a hat, if the price was right, which is evidenced by your various referred to discussions with banks about their stock and prices.

    Do you get your hypocrisy here…? And then you make pointless, pithy remarks about people who are at least active in the market, which is the witless and gutless part as far as I can see.

    So as to your final position, of course keep posting and I will do my best to avoid you, even though I admit to being interested in your odd post here and there, but do me and others a favour, keep your remarks about Estate Agents, who are at least gainfully employed, paying taxes, employing people, and contributing in their own way to society, keep your remarks to yourself, you only have a right to make those from a position of transparency, which as opposed to others on here you patently do not have.

  • #105275
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    😆 Me think you protest too much. I’m sure these exchanges are boring forums members almost as much as they bore me.
    Get a life Chris.

  • #105280
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    😆 Me think you protest too much. I’m sure these exchanges are boring forums members almost as much as they bore me.
    Get a life Chris.

    he can’t he is too busy selling houses rushed off his feet he is,more viewings and sales than he can handle

  • #105283
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    I’m sure these exchanges are boring forums members almost as much as they bore me.

    LOL, I just read the first few lines to get the jist of what he was saying, too much to be precise.

  • #105284
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    😆 Me think you protest too much. I’m sure these exchanges are boring forums members almost as much as they bore me.
    .

    You might be right, but one of us is sure boring the hell out of people, judging by the very few threads, posts and and reads there are these days on the forum, and the very limited number of regular contributors out there, or even anyone new coming on to post, now that’s a rare, rare bird indeed.

    And Poland Pete… well at least Logan was worth having a dig at, where as yourself….

    But an end to it now, if people can’t see what I see in you Logan, then I must be very wrong indeed and so be it.

    I will just do the selling of property daily, have potentially interesting information about the why’s, the wherefore’s and the etc’s keep it to myself if it is not that interesting and leave you to the google links you collect and send out daily.

    Cheers

  • #105304
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I have said this before but this forum really has gone down hill which is a shame because an active forum discussing all things Spain is so useful to so many people. Chris McCarthy and other agents on here clearly have an interest in talking up the market and then there are people who seem so hell bent on criticising absolutely everything about Spain with nobody in the middle it does not make for an interesting debate. I do feel that Chris and other agents have something valuable to add, being on the ground and in the business. Some, but very few, posters seem to have valid contributions but too many are simply way too anti Spain to be taken seriously. If I was a potential buyer I think I would take what the agents say with a bit of caution and accept that maybe the good things are exaggerated a bit but nevertheless be interested in what they say . As for Logan, I would dismiss everything he says, as clearly he hates the country with such a passion it’s abnormal. How anybody can post on a Spanish web site so often and criticise everything about that country is beyond me.
    For what is worth I, like so many people who have lived on the Costa del Sol for any length of time, know an awful lot of estate agents (not many other jobs here) and they all tell me things are improving with lots of people looking at properties and with a “reasonable number” of people buying. Nothing like a few years ago but much better than last year which was better than 2009. I know quite a few people who have been desperate to sell and have done so this year.
    Property market aside, Spain in my opinion is a great place to live. It has it’s faults and drawbacks but overall and on balance for me anyway, a great place to live. Shame this forum has gone down hill so much.

  • #105312
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    Well, MiM. Nobody posts here except people discussing economics of property investing or Estate agents who say things are getting better and Spain is great place to live.

    Pretty much what you would expect from a thread about the Spanish Property market in 2011, on a Spanish Property website.

  • #105323
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    http://www.expansion.com/2011/06/30/economia/1309427921.html?a=5cdaa77dc0a42f46ef68945ff15bb775&t=1309448763

    for those of you that can read Spanish this link demonstrates the upward surge in “extranjeros” buying property in Spain ……………. not to mention a long line of long term investors wading through the bargains!! ……… (when i say bargains I’m not talking about 1 bed flats in salobreña (Logan’s type of place) I’m talking about major land deals/ buying up whole complexes/ hotels/ etc) …………

    What was it the Warren Buffet said?? 😉

  • #105324
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    What was it the Warren Buffet said??

    How could we not know….it’s the favourite quote of every estate agent in Spain 😆

    Who really believes the spanish media, about two weeks ago there was an article saying investors were giving Spain the cold shoulder, may even have been linked on here.

  • #105370
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    Remember this from 2009/2010 same arguments then. Does anyone believe now that this apartment will achieve 3 figs.

    viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5698

    This purchase was discussed in detail in this thread with much advice and comments from many of you

    viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4717

    edited to add this thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4425

    seems the purchase was in summer 2009.

  • #102268
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Interesting to look back, thanks 🙂 I did notice that it was for sale. The dream didn’t last long did it! I know of a 2 bed for sale around there for 125,000.

  • #105371
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    People value different things but owning a property for less than 5-10 years in Spain is very bad when you take the buying costs into considerations. If you are not sure you should always rent.

  • #105373
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @Ardun wrote:

    People value different things but owning a property for less than 5-10 years in Spain is very bad when you take the buying costs into considerations. If you are not sure you should always rent.

    Yes it’s similar to buying a new car right now. Worth less than you paid from day one. He will be taking quite a loss, bought for 150,000, purchase costs around 15,000 plus 2400 community fees add taxes and utilities. Probably looking at cerca 50,000 loss in 2 years (or more) 😯

  • #105374
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    Russian Girlfriend? I wonder how much that cost him. They have a very mercenary attitude to Western men, according to the Russians I’ve spoken to.
    125k for a 1bed apartment looks very optimistic.

    Page 5 onward if you are looking through the 15 page thread

    viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4717&start=60

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    2010 and beyond is going to be very interesting indeed, there will be much that is “positive” but I am all for Angie, Goodsitch, Katy et al keeping everyone on their toes, yet hopefully more people like Boothy, SteveV6 and others who have bought, will now be able to express why, without being assumed to be half mad or throwing their money away, which patently they are not.

    😐

  • #105379
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @peterhun wrote:

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    2010 and beyond is going to be very interesting indeed, there will be much that is “positive” but I am all for Angie, Goodsitch, Katy et al keeping everyone on their toes, yet hopefully more people like Boothy, SteveV6 and others who have bought, will now be able to express why, without being assumed to be half mad or throwing their money away, which patently they are not.

    And your point is?

    2010 and now 2011 are very interesting indeed and getting much more so, and there are still people keeping everyone on their toes, but nobody ever said one should buy today and sell next year without there being some difficulty maybe, especially wanting to sell quickly. I have always talked about buying for use and the long term.

    Don’t point the finger at me, thank you very much.

  • #105389
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    @peterhun wrote:
    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    2010 and beyond is going to be very interesting indeed, there will be much that is “positive” but I am all for Angie, Goodsitch, Katy et al keeping everyone on their toes, yet hopefully more people like Boothy, SteveV6 and others who have bought, will now be able to express why, without being assumed to be half mad or throwing their money away, which patently they are not.

    And your point is?

    2010 and now 2011 are very interesting indeed and getting much more so, and there are still people keeping everyone on their toes, but nobody ever said one should buy today and sell next year without there being some difficulty maybe, especially wanting to sell quickly. I have always talked about buying for use and the long term.

    Don’t point the finger at me, thank you very much.

    My point is they it looks like Booty has thrown away his money by buying when he did. Which, as you say, is ‘very interesting indeed’.

  • #105396
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @peterhun wrote:

    My point is they it looks like Booty has thrown away his money by buying when he did. Which, as you say, is ‘very interesting indeed’.

    I just think it is ‘very sad’ that Boothy feels he wants to sell at this time, I thought he was going to get a lot more value from his ownership than this short period of time.

  • #105474
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’m visiting a few relatives on Mallorca for a few weeks so I have not been able to keep myself updated. One of them is a boss for a local La Caixa bransch and he just told me that CAM was taken over by the goverment a few days ago. Haven’t seen anything about this.

  • #105475
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    have just returned from 2 weeks in spain and where i stayed in moraira i saw no sign of the masses of scandinavian buyers just the normal german, dutch, french and a few swiss.Didn’t seem to be as many brits around as in previous years.There seems to be signs of quite large discounts now being applied to some properties too.

  • #105476
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @dartboy wrote:

    have just returned from 2 weeks in spain and where i stayed in moraira i saw no sign of the masses of scandinavian buyers just the normal german, dutch, french and a few swiss.Didn’t seem to be as many brits around as in previous years.There seems to be signs of quite large discounts now being applied to some properties too.

    Sounds quite promising. Moraira/Javea is the nearest decent (ish) coastal area to Madrid (where I live) so I’m tracking it quite a bit. I’ve seen quite a lot of villas have €100k knocked off their asking prices (down from around €400k to around €300k) but they still seem to take several months to shift (if they do shift at all). If asking prices drop by another €50k to say €250k then I might start making offers for less than €200k. If not then for me it makes more sense to rent.

  • #105514
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @chopera wrote:

    @dartboy wrote:
    have just returned from 2 weeks in spain and where i stayed in moraira i saw no sign of the masses of scandinavian buyers just the normal german, dutch, french and a few swiss.Didn’t seem to be as many brits around as in previous years.There seems to be signs of quite large discounts now being applied to some properties too.

    Sounds quite promising. Moraira/Javea is the nearest decent (ish) coastal area to Madrid (where I live) so I’m tracking it quite a bit. I’ve seen quite a lot of villas have €100k knocked off their asking prices (down from around €400k to around €300k) but they still seem to take several months to shift (if they do shift at all). If asking prices drop by another €50k to say €250k then I might start making offers for less than €200k. If not then for me it makes more sense to rent.

    i’d say renting deffinatley still makes more sence as people are lowering the rental prices to make sure of lets,i rented a 3 bed villa with pool for 2 weeks so paid holiday let prices but even then it was only £800 a week which is good for a 3 bed normally expect around the £1100 mark in the summer holidays

  • #106074
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Today I read this in an email sent to me:

    “Enrique Marazuela, chief investment officer for the private banking division at BBVA, recently informed delegates at the Reuters Global Wealth Management summit that property prices in some of Spain’s coastal regions have reached rock bottom and that transaction levels are beginning to recover.”

  • #105874
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Today I read this in an email sent to me:

    “Enrique Marazuela, chief investment officer for the private banking division at BBVA, recently informed delegates at the Reuters Global Wealth Management summit that property prices in some of Spain’s coastal regions have reached rock bottom and that transaction levels are beginning to recover.”

  • #106075
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    Yes, I’m sure we can beleive the word of a banker. Wonder if he has noticed that the world is entering recession; of course he has.

  • #105875
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    Yes, I’m sure we can beleive the word of a banker. Wonder if he has noticed that the world is entering recession; of course he has.

  • #106245
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I had diner last night with a broker who works the top end of the Spanish market (€1 million plus) selling 90pc to foreigners. He is having the best year ever. That doesn’t mean the market is about to recover, but it’s interesting to know.

  • #106307
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @mark wrote:

    I had diner last night with a broker who works the top end of the Spanish market (€1 million plus) selling 90pc to foreigners. He is having the best year ever. That doesn’t mean the market is about to recover, but it’s interesting to know.

    Generally speaking foreign buyers in that market range are spending either their year end bonus or are hiding some capital gains. It has no real relationship to the housing market generally.
    Some sectors of the European economy are continuing to prosper, most are not.

  • #106308
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @mark wrote:

    I had diner last night with a broker who works the top end of the Spanish market (€1 million plus) selling 90pc to foreigners. He is having the best year ever. That doesn’t mean the market is about to recover, but it’s interesting to know.

    The rich foreigners are also buying prime property in London, even though the prices are astronomic (at least for British buyers).
    The same rich people invest their money in top end of the Spanish market (€1 million plus).

    What else can they do? Gold is way-overvalued, the stocks are too volatile, commodities are quite expensive.

  • #106309
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @mark wrote:

    He is having the best year ever.

    That’s what they all say 😆 Looking at the websites for upmarket property hardly seems to have made any difference. There is still a lot of profit in the stockmarket with the up and downs by about 300 points. Most rich people aren’t idiots…I don’t think 😆

  • #106336
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Mark, was this broker a mortgage broker?

    If so, then many of them were getting rich fabricating salaries for people buying properties all over the world, whilst making huge commissions for themselves. Hence the sub-prime mortgages and property crash.

    Most brokers are in-between fixers in whatever activity and generally out for themselves and not the best for their clients, I would just take what bankers and brokers say with a pinch of salt.

    I do agree though that wealthy people might be investing in high end properties in good locations worldwide as they don’t know what to do with their money, but in the Eurozone, wouldn’t that be too much of a gamble if using other currencies to start off with? 😕

  • #106338
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    He was an estate agent.

    I know there is often a gap between what estate agents claim and reality, but even adjusting for that it is clear this business is doing well.

  • #106341
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @mark wrote:

    I know there is often a gap between what estate agents claim and reality,

    Do you mean estate agents lie Mark? 😯 Well Knock me down with a feather duster as my old granny used to say. 🙂

  • #106356
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Bit of a different story here. Rich Spaniards buy up property in London.

    http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_32532.shtml

  • #106358
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Actually, it’s a different side of the same story. 90pc+ of this agent’s clients are non-Spanish (Russia, Swiss….), whilst rich Spaniards are buying in places like London. The rich Spaniard is already heavily exposed to Spain so wants to diversify, whilst the rich Russian has no exposure to Spain and wants to take advantage of the market and get a nice holiday-home in the sun.

  • #106359
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    The myth that the Russians are buying up property in Spain has been around since C. 2004 when the market started to slump. Probably started by one of the CDS agents in the same way the Disneyworld myth started. Truthfully Russians have bought but just a drop in the ocean.. Rich Russians go for New York, London and the South of France. The middle class mainly for Eastern europe countries like Bulgaria where they feel at home. Recently Portugal claimed they were buying there 🙄 I lived in Geneva for 2 years and frankly they are too canny to be pouring money into Spain. I lived in Spain for 15 years and met various nationalities but never a Swiss owner. Why would they when they are only a few hours away from Nice etc!

  • #106362
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Why would they when they are only a few hours away from Nice etc!

    If you have money the South of France is a safe haven almost on par with London. Spain, Greece, Italy are not places to spread risk but instead to add risk.

    A real risk of currency devaluation.

    If France devalues SoF properties will quickly rise to the international price, whereas Spain is still oversupplied no matter the price.

  • #106707
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    I lived in Spain for 15 years and met various nationalities but never a Swiss owner. Why would they when they are only a few hours away from Nice etc!

    Maybe they don’t mingle among the same circles of people as you.

    How many people who pay millions of euros for a vivienda have you met in your 15 years in Spain?

    I’ve lived in San Francisco for 32 years and have yet to meet Robin Williams, Larry Ellision, any of the Getty family, etc. even though I have worked for some very wealthy folks.

  • #106710
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Swiss, by nature are very prudent, inward looking, dont like to pay interest. One of the reason that you dont come accross many Swiss is that they are not that many & unlike the Germans not fond of travelling further a field. The Italian speaking SWiss goes to Italy & the French speaking goes to France. The rest stay at home & make hole’s in the cheese.

  • #106784
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @shakeel wrote:

    The rest stay at home & make hole’s in the cheese.

    I do like the way this Forum gives me the odd chuckle now and again 😆 😆

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